Transcription
[Music] Uh, hello. Are you here to debate?
Hello. Hello. Yellow. You here to debate?
Uh, yes, sir.
All right. Can I get your name, mate, your pronouns, please?
My name is George. Uh, my pronouns are he, him. Uh, and I am 23 years old.
All right, George. What topic on the board did you want to debate about?
I guess uh I'm not necessarily uh on the right, but I think out of all the topics I was looking at, I guess Christianity is terrible is probably the one that uh piques my interest the most.
Yeah, sure. Uh it's pretty simple. I believe any religion that uh morally condones slavery is a bad religion.
So can you explain specifically how like the Bible or what exactly are referencing that condones slavery?
Yeah, sure. Uh Leviticus 25:44-46 where God says your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you. From them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country and they will become your property and you can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and you can make them slaves for life but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Okay, but yeah, this is the Old Testament though, right?
Uh, yeah, God also uh says in the New Testament uh slaves obey your earthly masters even and even says even the cruel earthly masters you must obey them even if they're cruel or kind. So even in the New Testament he condones slavery.
Can you find the wait in the New Testament he says that? Can you find the the passage for that for absolutely 100%. I'm just curious.
Uh, this is one necessarily but Oh, no problem. This is 1 Peter 1 Peter 2 uh 18. Slaves in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters not only to those who are good and considerate but also to those who are harsh. And and it's different in different in different uh translations. One of them they say uh not only if they're kind and reasonable but even if they're cruel. One says if not only if they're gentle but also unjust uh but also unreasonable uh also harsh. Like they keep using words about masters uh masters to slaves who are like bad. So like they I mean they use the word for slavery. They use ebed in the the Hebrew Ebed which translates to slaves. So like they're quite literally talking about slaves at this point.
Yeah. But then by that standard, couldn't you say like every religion kind of condones slavery besides Christianity?
Well, any religion that has the Old and New Testaments in it. Yes. And I would say to all of those religions, bad, but Christianity is the one I'm the most studied on. So that's why I talk about Christianity specifically.
Sure. No, I get that part. But would you say like that those values from that testament and the things that are being said there like apply today by any standard whatsoever?
I don't think they apply today, but I'm not I'm not Christian. A a Christian who believes that all uh where the Bible when it says specifically all scripture is word of God, a Christian who believes this would have to say that like yes, those standards must apply today. Otherwise, they're going against what their book says.
Okay. So, you think every just just so we're clear, so every Christian is going against their own religion because they don't, you know, fully believe that slavery is a good thing.
I mean, yeah. If they believe slavery to be a moral wrong, they're going against God. God believes it to be a to be morally permissible.
Okay. Um, like I'm not a Christian myself, but you know, I live in more of a time where, you know, I understand why people believe in religion and whatnot. You know, personally, uh, I grew up Christian, Catholic, but I became an atheist myself, but, you know, I always try to defend religion if it helps people. You know, I always look at it from the standpoint of I think religion really, really helps people, especially Christianity. Like, it gives them a sense of purpose. Like I know people that like can live as an atheist or can live not believing in religion, but I know there's a lot of people who believe and like depend on religion itself. So I mean just to say overall terrible just to nitpick.
My only my only thing against that is like just because something helps people doesn't make it good, right? Like the Nazis technically helped a bunch of people but like also killed million other the Nazis I I wouldn't say Nazism is in comparison to like people having churches and singing every Sunday right so the Nazis held the Nazis held rallies where people met weekly and sang and played games they had camps for kids to go and play and learn like I don't know what the what's what's what would be the difference here
I mean the difference would be like, you know, the internment camps were like right next door and there was propaganda posters saying that Jewish and disabled people were pretty much not humans. I don't think Christianity I mean God was God God was helping out the Israelites while also having them like murder the Canaanites. So like
Oh, yeah, of course. No, I will never say that, you know, like the more we talk about it, the more it's the the more the parallelism is is is seeming real. Hey buddy, I'll give you I'll give you like the Crusades. I'll give you all that stuff. I'll give you the Israel. I'll give you all that. All right, but I'm talking in today's standard. You could take a Nazi today and take a Christian today. You could find wild differences in
I'm not comparing Nazis to Christians. I'm just pointing out that that I mean you brought up Nazi. No, I'm pointing out I'm pointing out that bad bad ideologies or bad um uh beliefs can still do good for people, right? There are people that that can receive good even from bad beliefs. So even though uh Nazism is a bad belief, there were still Germans who did better under the Nazi party and and had better lives than pre-Nazi party. Right. So just saying like Christianity's helped a bunch of people, I don't think is a compelling argument.
I'm not saying I'm not saying that's the reason, but I'm saying like you're saying overall it's terrible, but then you're evidence of it is bringing up slavery in the Old Testament and the New Testament because I'm not saying Christians are terrible. I'm not saying Christians are terrible. I'm saying Christianity is terrible. Somebody can be a can be say they're a Christian and like be like, "Yeah, but I don't really believe the Bible. I just believe that Christ was our Lord. I believe there was a person who was born named whose name was Jesus Christ and who came back from the dead and I believe in him. I don't really believe in the book and I think that's fine.
So is that Christianity then? What is Christianity definition?
That's their version of Christianity. But like my my understanding of Christianity would mean that you have to follow the Bible because quite literally Jesus and God both say to right Jesus says I didn't come to abolish the old laws. He says these old laws are still intact. Right? In fact, I think it's that the only the only way they're going to get the old laws are going to get abolished is during the rapture, which we all know is not actually going to happen. But like uh if if so in my opinion, Christianity, the thing that's based on the book, that is bad. Whatever you do with it is what you do with it. Like somebody could even believe in the full book and not do bad things with it. But Christianity within and of itself is terrible. any any any religion that says slavery is morally permissible is terrible in my opinion in that I I don't know that I don't know that anybody I don't know how people disagree with that fact.
No, like listen, I agree with you in this sense because you know even Levictus I brought up in the past when I originally strayed away from religion because you know it pointed out, you know, the slaughtering of anyone who slept with the same gender and blah blah blah like that that made me stray away but from the sense of wouldn't shouldn't you just cut up a middleman and just say that you hate the Bible and not hate Christianity or because a Christian you know I would never say like a bad person but if you want to critique the Bible can you just say like the Bible I think Christians can be bad people, right?
I think if a Christian fully believe like evangelical Christians who believe everything the Bible says and then some, yeah, they're bad people. They're just like hands down terrible people. Christians who use the mistranslation in Leviticus to to claim that being gay is wrong is a bad person. Christians that use the mistranslation in the New Testament where they to say that gay gay is wrong are are bad people. Um I think these are bad people. Yeah.
Sure. I guess I I I I think just the only hang-up on my part is just I could see the nitpicky where it's like, you know, slavery and you know, whatever. Like it's it's bad. I agree. I think we can both agree that it's terrible and shouldn't be involved in any religion or shown in any religious purpose. But just to fully sum up and say like the whole religion is bad for that reason. Like I when I grew up in the religion, like I had my questions about it that made me stray away. But I saw how many people like it helped. And I understand like yes, like a bad thing can help a good person. But I mean, I think there's more good and bad. Like I can say there's way more bad in Nazism than I can say that there is in Christianity. But I just look at the results of how many people it helped and how many how much it doesn't really in today's standard have that negative effect like it used to where you couldn't be gay, you couldn't be like anything, you had to be a follower of the church, etc. You had to go every Sunday or you go to hell, etc. But I don't know. I just I just don't get the point of saying the whole Christianity is terrible just based off of just the Bible. Like I feel like you should You're attacking the wrong point in my opinion.
The B I I don't The Bible's the book, right? The Bible is the book. That's That'd be like going That'd be like going, "Well, all of the Chronicles of Narnia isn't aren't bad just because the books are bad." Well, no. Yeah, the books are the the story. The books are the thing. Yeah. Yeah.
But then like that's my point. Like the Bible's bad. I'm I If you met a Christian, I wouldn't think like this person like, you know, likes slavery. And if you said, "Oh, what do you think about slavery?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, in the Bible it's in slavery, so I believe that, too." Like, no, these people are I think have a updated morality at that point. But if you want to say the Bible's bad, they don't believe in their own book, that's that's my issue.
Oh, yeah. That's the best part. Well, think about it. If anyone here if you were like Islamic or whatever and you believed in your book, these guys would have 20 wives and they would be hitting people. Wait, if I shouldn't if I shouldn't believe in everything written in the book, why should I believe in anything written in the book? Why should I believe Jesus Jesus rose from the dead? Why should I believe Why should I believe that that God is loving? Why should I believe any of this if none of it isn't if the if the book is wrong all the time?
Do you think there's religious people that fully believe in the book that the religion resonates from? Do you think there's people that fully believe and follow the Torah like word for word or follow the Bible like word for word?
Like I think every I think I can find like 99% plus Christians and Catholics don't like abide by the Bible or the commandments. They always like fail in some standard. I don't think anyone's like direct.
But we're not even talking about we're not talking about failing, right? Cuz that's different. Believing that it's that it's real and failing to meet up with it is a different thing. So I'm talking about someone that believes in the Bible wholeheartedly. Like if they're if they believe in the Bible wholeheartedly, they believe slavery is morally permissible. If they don't believe in the Bible wholeheartedly and they're saying, "Well, well, the Bible is just a tool." Like we then why should I believe any of the claims it makes? Why should I believe in God to begin with?
The Bible is the claim. But if you're saying that there are parts of the Bible that are just like obviously logically slavery is not okay, so that part of the Bible just ignore. Well, then I'll just ignore all of it. Like what do you how do we make who makes the determination on what parts of the Bible we ignore or don't ignore?
Yeah. Well, to be honest, you're getting more on my side now because I'm in agreeance with you. But I am an atheist to begin with. So, I'm trying to like devil's advocate this, but um yeah, I don't know, man. I think it's a very weird slope. Uh I think Christianity isn't bad, but I do think that books that it originate from are bad. I don't like the idea of like the Testament can just be simply updated and all of a sudden like God doesn't hate gay people apparently. Like uh, you know, I've had my own turning away from the faith for those reasons alone. But uh I just thought it was interesting that like you didn't say like Catholicism is bad or this specific is bad specifically Christianity. Like what do you what do you have anything against Catholicism or any idea?
I I'm against any religion whose whose source is the Bible. Yes.
Okay. All right. Well, then at that point, I feel like you should just say the Bible is terrible and then, etc. Because it seems like you brought up a passage the second I heard Christianity is terrible, but now I feel like the Bible is the the book of the Christian faith.
Sure. But then, but then now we're going back to the point that I said earlier where if you just took a Christian off the street, do you think this guy actually believes and thinks slavery is good? No, of course not. Then they don't believe in their own book. And we're right back to my question, which is if you're allowed to say this part of the book is is wrong, why should I believe any of the book? The book is the claim. The book is what makes the claim. Without the Bible, Christianity doesn't exist.
Yeah. But it's like there's so many passages in other books as well and the Bible that nobody goes by. like uh in the book of Islam, it says you should have 20 plus wives and you'll or 20 plus wives and you'll have all these virgins in the afterlife, but a lot of these guys that believe in this Islamic faith don't have that. They don't have 30 wives or whatever. They don't fully follow to that extent because it's like in Christianity it says you have to believe in your earthly masters and it hints at slavery, but I don't see a guy walking with somebody on a leash down the street, you know? Like I'm just saying like there's parts of it that are completely wrong and I think they're so my question my question remains what part should we what parts who get who gets to decide what parts we throw away and which parts we don't
There is no deciding in my opinion it's all [ __ ] but I think there's great virtues learn by
Wait, if you agree it's all [ __ ] and you agree like I this is why the devil don't need an advocate right like if you believe it's all [ __ ] there's no reason to keep having the conversation. We know it. We know it's all [ __ ] If there if there is no hard fast line of who gets to decide what stays and what goes, then it's all Do we throw it all out?
I guess so. But I'm just saying I've probably met the nicest and sweetest people that are Christians. And obviously I don't believe in the same faith they do, but I think the Bible teaches lessons of how to be a better person still and how to treat.
Could I get Could I get all Could I get those lessons by opening a Clifford the Big Red Dog book? Yes. Can I get those Can I get those lessons by watching Sesame? I can get all those same same lessons. There's not a single lesson that I can't get from watching Sesame Street.
Oh, yeah. No, you get those exact lessons from Sesame Street. I'm not saying you can't, but my point is when you get older and you start to age, I think people try to find a sense of purpose of life and try to do good willingly from a belief instead of just, you know, you see it on TV or you read it in a book. So, I that's why a lot of people turn to religion. But my point is I would never say the whole thing is terrible because I think it's made some people very nice and very respectful. It's made some people very much better citizens in life and I will always agree with that because I see the results of it. But I I'm just going to still say any religion that believes that that says slavery is morally permissible is a bad religion.
Okay. Like if you want to cold turkey it like that that's fine. But could you Okay. But you couldn't admit if you say it's all bad because of this specific point which is correct. I believe that's right. I don't think you know I have had my own critiques of every religious book and rightfully so. But would you say that Christianity has helped people at all even we but we already went over this.
I think that bad things can help people. You can have bad beliefs that can still lead to positive benefits for others. Bad but people. So you're saying overall it is bad but it has helped people.
Yes.
Okay. So, you're going to compare. So, you quickly compared Christianity. You jumped right to Nazism. I can compare I can compare it. No, I don't think it's insane to compare it to I would say there's probably been more deaths caused by Christianity than Nazism probably. But today's standard in today's time, if you took a Nazi and a Christian, I think those people would be completely different in historically Nazis were Christian. But, you know,
Oh, yeah. Nazis were mostly Catholics, but yeah, no, Nazis believed in Jesus and they believed that everything they were doing was for God. I'm not saying that. I'm talking in today's standard. Do you think a Christian or a Nazi, which one do you think would be more toned towards slavery or which one would even like even consider it like a
Wait, but again, whether the person believes it or not doesn't say I'm talking about the religion itself. You keep conflating the religion for the believers of the religion. Right? I I don't care whether a a Christian believes in slavery or not. Their their religion says it is morally permissible. And if they can go, well, yeah, it says that, but I'm just going to ignore that part and do the other stuff. I think that's bad.
Okay. Then what do you think these people should do then when they feel like like there's a huge sum of people on the earth who have a feel a void and they feel like they need something to believe in to keep going and blah blah blah and they turn to these religions. What do you think these people should be doing that?
Go going to therapy help going to comm finding community. What it is like what it is about religion half the time is community, right? You're find you're getting this sense of community. You can do that without religion. Go to your local boys and girls club. Go to your local community center. Volunteer. Sign up for things. You don't have to get this meaning from Christianity. You can get it from anything. Right? There are people who feel a religious sense of spirituality when they're like performing, right? Like like singers who perform who who feel like a religious sense of spirituality. It's just about finding that purpose. You can find that everywhere. But yeah, I think the best place to start is like therapy probably.
Okay. But you don't think a sense of purpose can be found through religion like at all?
Even I think it can be. I've never said it couldn't. Right. I I I think the issue is that finding a sense of belief or finding a sense of purpose inside something that says stay slavery is okay. I think we should probably get that sense of purpose elsewhere. Just personally, I respect it, Jovin.
No, I follow the streams, brother. I just wanted to debate you, but this was fun.
All right. All right. Well, I'll uh I'll see you soon, but uh thanks for the quick talk, bud.
Sure thing. Okay, the devil don't need an advocate. What's up everybody? Thanks for watching this video and I want to give a special shout out to my YouTube members. Their names are on the side. Membership starts at $2.99 a month and you get early access to videos, exclusive membersonly videos, and access to the Red Mirror Media Discord server. Thank you again to my members and thanks for watching.
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