Transcription
10 years ago, I was just about to go through my own personal bankruptcy because of a bad partnership. I was doing the surplus funds and I was being taught by someone who didn't know what she was doing and she got me in trouble. She was lending money to investors. I was seeing some things I didn't like and got out of it. I went home and I filed bankruptcy. I was really in a low spot and I just said, I cannot see myself doing anything else than real estate.
Welcome to Dirty Deeds. I've got another special guest today for you. Stephanie Shepard has been around these circles as long as I can remember. We did our first event back in San Antonio in 2022 and we got a chance to meet there. She's always been a great operator, really cool person. Um and we're going to talk to you today. Welcome, Stephanie.
Thank you. Thank you, Logan. I'm happy to be here.
Yeah. Thanks for coming to San Antonio.
Yeah.
Long way for you.
I love coming to Texas. I lived in Texas for 4 years, so I lived in Lubbock and then New Braunfels for almost one, so
Oh, yeah. New Braunfels is cool.
Yeah.
So, Steph, tell us what your business looks like today.
So, right now it's just me, solo operator. Um I have a VA help me every now and then if I need it, but it's just I primarily wholesale in California and then I do a lot of joint venture opportunities with investors that get stuck on their deals, whether it be a title issue or maybe they're stuck on the research side and they don't really know where to go. Maybe it's more title related, but maybe it's more hey, I have a deceased owner. I don't know who the next of kin would be. I don't know how to build a family tree.
That's what I know of your specialty. The wholesaling part we haven't even talked about.
Wholesaling's easy. That's the easy part. [laughter] Like that's just what I love doing is wholesaling, you know? But like my bread and butter, what I'm known for is like the investigation, the research side. Yeah.
I would say that's one of the parts that people struggle with when they come into this business, especially if they're already from real estate. Most parts of real estate don't have this much research.
For sure. And it's kind of knowing when to stop, right? I mean, for me, I don't. So, I like to dig and dig and dig because I want to understand why I'm not finding something and that's just my curious cat, you know, that gets in the way. But I can do that, right? But, someone that wants to try to do more volume, you know, they have to have a stopping point at some point, right?
Right.
And so, until they go on to the next prospect. So, it's just kind of knowing when to stop and when to park it, and then keep going on other prospects, and then when to come back to it. That's another part of it.
What kind of What are your favorite tools? Like, what's the stuff that moves the needle the most for you right now?
Um so, definitely access to public records. Like, Florida's the best state most open state there is. I would say Texas is a close second. Just having access to the land records, knowing how to use those free tools the county gives you. You know, even civil and criminal searches, people don't even do that.
Yeah.
Um they're huge. You can just find out like domestic violence history, family dynamic history, just different things. Um also, Ancestry is a big one for me. Um a lot of my deals are deceased owner related, so it's like I'm using Ancestry to go back in time to come to the present, right?
Yeah.
So, Ancestry is great. Even the newspapers.com add-on is really helpful. Um having a skip tracing platform There's so many out there, but I would say having a one-off skip tracing platform where you can skip trace one address at a time, not not just bulk, right?
Yeah, you usually get better data with those, too.
And and understanding how to read a skip trace, that's like a whole 'nother thing is, "Oh, I'm going to skip trace Logan so I can get his phone number." You know, but are you really analyzing the skip trace itself? Cuz there's so much gold in there, right? There's so many previous addresses. If you're not sure who you're related to who they're related to, look at the previous address history and see how long they've been associated with that address. Click on those addresses cuz that'll open up a whole 'nother channel of associates related to those previous addresses that you may have not gotten from the current address.
So, you're saying the current address might be the subject property, or it might not be. But, maybe some of the prior addresses it shows they've been there for 10 years or something like that. And you click on it and see who's associated with those, and you say, "Hold Hold minute. These people may have lived together, or they may have bought and sold to each other. They may be relatives."
Family members, yeah.
Yeah.
Especially like PO boxes. I get excited when I see a PO box for like 20 plus years cuz I'm like, oh, their kids are going to be on there. The the parents might even be on there.
So then you'll trace the by the PO box then by instead of by the person that way.
Yeah, and and that's what I tell everybody. When you're researching a property and you're already stuck, you have to see skip indicator, right? If the subject property is different than the mailing address on the CAD, skip trace the mailing address.
Yeah.
So, you don't want to skip trace an individual's name cuz you're only going to get one hit.
You can get a bunch of Tims or nobody for a long time.
So when you skip trace an address, you're going to get bang for your buck because you get everybody associated with that address and you can kind of see like, hey, there's there's the same last name or there's these ages might indicate their kids versus parents or whatnot.
Well, as we talk about this, I think about a web.
Yeah.
And when you when a person thinks, I'm going to skip trace someone and say, all right, I'm going to skip trace, I don't know, Aaron Rodgers. You can put it in there. You go you put the name in the first field. Aaron first name or last name last name first, whatever. Put them in. You hit the button and see what happens. Well, hold on a minute. First hit the First do it that way. See what you get. Just I would glance it. Second, I'd go back and put the subject address in. Glance it. Then you say, okay, hold on a minute. There was a mailing address that was separate from the site. Let's put that in and see what I have see what happens. And you search it and kind of pick up information. I I don't I like a lot of times when I would do it, I would just map the stuff out on a board real quick and start putting key points.
Yeah.
So okay, now I see that. All right, let me go the other way around. Now let me grab the addresses and put them in and type those and see what people are associated with that. Okay, I've I've done the site address. I've done the mailing address.
Yeah.
All right, and now then then when you went into his relatives, okay, let's click on those real quick. And I and I feel like sometimes people get in a spot where they're doing it for so long. Like they're all beat. They're like trying to map it all out.
Yeah.
And one of my business partners is a CPA. dude doesn't round. He's like, "To the penny."
Yeah. And when I call him, I'm like, "Hey, what was our revenue for the quarter or how much we make on that deal?" He's like, "I need a financial." I'm like, "Dude, round it to the nearest hundred thousand dollars. I don't care about a penny or ten grand." When I'm looking at this data, I look at it the same way. I'm trying to I'm trying to get on an order of magnitude idea here. What stands out?
Every craig is either cousin or the nephew.
Yeah.
I don't care.
Have to know that.
Right. I know they're connected cuz they keep showing up and they keep having the same addresses and they're in about a similar age bracket within a couple years. Like,
Yeah.
Dude, these people know each other.
Yeah, for sure.
Call them.
Yeah. And following like a chain of events when you're researching like an order of direction is helpful because like you said, you could be doing this for an hour and you're like, "Well, what did I check already? And where am I at?" And like, I don't even know where I'm at. I done all this research and like I can't even make a summary of what I've done, right? It's have everything kind of floating in front of me. So, I'm a pen and paper girl. So, like again, I'm observing anything everything and I'm kind of making notes as I'm going on and I'm I'm seeing um things that come up over and over again. I say, "Okay, like there are similarities here. There are coincidences. This person was on this previous address and the mailing address. Like, there's got to be relation there, right?" But, my first thing is when I'm skip tracing, I always skip trace the mailing address first because I feel like it gives you immediate information, you know? If it's different. If it's different than the subject property.
So, when you step back and think like, "Where does the data come from?" I had a guy in [snorts] here the other day we were talking about data and there's only so much you would give cuz he has a platform and he sells it. Yeah. But, so, we've been through like two of the um restricted data platforms and then we'll use two or so of the unrestricted. Okay. Usually one restricted, one unrestricted. That's kind of where we go back and forth in between. But, while we were interviewing one of the companies for the restricted platform, it was Thomson Reuters, which
is a expensive platform, by the way.
Yeah.
What I'll tell you, it was really, really fascinating because we were moving from another platform that was really good. It was kind of considered a gold standard.
Yeah.
I get talking to the one of the sales reps and they kept comparing it against the other product and I was like, "Why are you guys better?" Like, and one of the things they said I was like, "You know what? Tell me where you get the data." I'm like, "Well, we don't share that stuff." And I'm like, "Dude, then I don't my account pays like five to seven thousand dollars a month in skip tracing
Yeah.
for 10 freaking years. If you don't want to tell me where the data goes, then I think you're making this stuff up."
Yeah.
So, I get some manager on the phone and then starts explaining all this stuff and my mind was blown. I had no idea data transacted like this.
Okay.
Here's where a couple of the places you would never think data comes from about you. Data about you is being sold on the internet. It's sold to companies every day and this is how. You go, when is the last time you got your oil changed?
Um, probably six months ago.
Okay. Six months or three thousand miles, I hope.
[laughter]
Yeah. Yeah.
You went there and you they ask your name, phone number, address. They got your VIN number, your license plate number, and how many miles are on your car.
Yeah.
And you paid them the $60 or whatever and drove off.
Right.
Do you know they catalog that data and there's not a no consent box on that? They catalog all that and they sell it.
Wow.
Yes. I had no idea, but that is current, accurate, really good data. Now, another place they do it is pizza joints.
Pizza joints.
Delivery. They got your address, your phone number, and a date.
Okay.
It's up to date and it's about it.
All the time.
Right. I might move. Let's say over two-year period, I might sell my house and move. But, you know what? During that whole time I'm ordering my deadgum kids pizza.
Yeah.
So, my address change will show up there faster it will the DMV.
Yeah, for sure.
How about that?
That's I mean, I'm not surprised, but I am at the same time. Like, just those little niches that you don't think about day-to-day.
Right. So, now let's think about who is it we're looking for.
Yeah.
When you're looking for people like, I don't know, I I in the same city for 15 years, same phone number, like you put my name in there, dude, it's going to be real easy to find my information.
Yeah.
Well, some of these folks are like just got out of jail or just bought or they they don't they don't have their stuff together enough to handle business. So, like they're moving around apartment to apartment, they're living with someone, their name's not on the lease.
Yeah.
You got that kind of stuff. But, you know what? And some of them Yeah, right. And some of them they're not even driving cars, they're riding with other people. But, if your data provider didn't get all these places, they might be ordering pizza. They might have bought something mail order online from a clothing store that sells their data.
Yeah, for sure.
Holy cow.
Yeah.
That's how they get found, people.
Really is no privacy anymore, you know?
You know that's true. So, immediately when that stuff was happening, I was asking myself like I wonder if I can opt out of all this so that I could like
Wipe yourself.
Manage my data. And then I realized Dude, do you know how many I got my oil changed at three different places in the last 5 years cuz I'm just like I'm by this one to get it done.
Yeah.
Dude, I don't know what you could do with it.
Yeah. I know there are some providers online, you know, that you can sign up for that helps you kind of scrape your data from the internet, but I mean, they're not internet-based oil change places, you know?
Stop a Stephanie Shepard from finding you?
Yeah, probably not. I'm kidding.
[laughter]
Tell me what your call script looks like. This is something people are always so intimidated by when you reach out to a person you have never met before and you're calling about sensitive information. What do you say?
You know, it depends on the situation. I used to do surplus funds.
Mhm.
Like way back when I lived in Texas and What was your pitch for that?
Huh?
What was your pitch for that?
I'll say I had to work really hard at create creating it because it sounds like a scam, you know? Hey, there's money for that belongs to you, blah blah blah.
[laughter]
And they're like, "Where?" And you can't tell them because they're going to go get it, right? Without you. So, I I took a lot of time to create this script. I mean, I thought of every single question they could ask me and how I could answer back. And what I found was I had a call recently with a is it's a C stoner in Florida and this is a nephew. There's three nephews that are the heirs and I had a conversation with him and this is a JV opportunity. So my JV partner called him first and like the call did not go well. The guy was asking a lot of questions. My partner on it did not know how to answer them without giving away too much information and so he said, "Hey, can you come to this call with me?" So when I came on, typically when I'm cold calling someone I'm trying to verify information like per pertaining to a family tree so I can identify truly identify the heirs, right? Want to make sure I'm on the right track. But it could be an heir themselves that I'm calling, right? So I'm a little vague sometimes with hey, it's pertaining to such a state because again, there's so many times where they go around me and they say, "Oh, my aunt's going to list this property even though you gave me the the heads up, right?"
Me but too bad.
So I'll kind of map the family tree out and I'll identify another person close to my decedent. And so when I'm calling I'm saying, "Hey, I'm working on a family tree for so-and-so. I noticed that you might be a relative." And it's to this relating party not the deceased, right? So that way I'm not giving away my true intent in a sense. I'm not lying, you know, because I am validating the tree. But I'll kind of say, "Hey, you know, I know this is super random but I was calling you because I'm researching a I'm researching a family tree or I'm looking into a family tree and I saw that you may be related. I'd love to just take a few minutes to to chat with you if you're open to it."
What would your what kind of response rate would you get on that like?
I've had some people like, "Oh, this is so random but like what what can I help you with exactly?" Be like, "Well, look, like I saw that this person, you know, was married to so-and-so and had had a few kids. I see that you might be a niece, right? Had a brother, blah blah blah." So I just try to confirm some information with them and I just I feel like as a woman we have a heads up.
I was about I was waiting for you to finish to ask how far do you feel like
Yeah.
that affects it?
I feel like it lets their guard down a lot faster. Um, but tone is everything, too, even from a man, right? Like, tone [clears throat] is everything, just being calm and collected, and being like, "Hey, I know this is super random. Like, I hope I'm not bothering you, but I just I'm researching this family tree." I've even had people where I've messaged them on Ancestry because they've already built their family tree.
Oh, yeah.
Cuz you can message them, right? If it's not Even if it's a private tree, and I can tell, "Hey, this is the tree I'm after."
Built out, but it says privacy here.
Yeah, so you can send them a message, and I've had people respond that way, and they're they're very helpful. Like, I feel like more most people are really intimidated by reaching out because they're like, "This is an invasion of privacy." And in a sense, it can be, but it's out there anyways, right? It's a lot of the information out there, so it's like, "Hey, I was on Ancestry." You can even use that as like, "I was on Ancestry."
Good.
You know, like, "There's some information on there. I started building a family tree. Just wanted to see if you can confirm some information." So, I would say usually they're helpful.
What it sounds to me is like you're rearranging the conversation. So, like, a lot of people will have a pitch almost at the beginning. "I'm here to buy the property. I can pay cash, close fast."
Yeah.
And then the explanation is in the middle, and then like, almost like the intro's at the end, like, "How you did all this?" But it's like you're rearranging it.
Well, in a sense, cuz a lot of the time I'm brought in to kind of like help identify the tree, and sometimes I'll help call the heirs. But I don't like to immediately bring up the property. Unless it's my own deal, I might kind of bring up like, "Hey, there's an estate There's an estate, you know, pertaining to this, you know, family, and we're an estate recovery company, or
Got it.
We're we're trying to help find the rightful heirs so we can assist them with collecting what's rightfully theirs, you know, something like that.
That way you don't sound like a wholesaler. "Hey, I'm calling about 123 Main Street. You want to sell I want to buy."
Exactly. And they're like, anticipating a lowball cash offer, you know? And I mean, and with the buying interest, like, it depends on the situation. Is there a lot of title issues? Is it just a clean deal? Okay, we can make a better offer, you know? So, it just depends on the situation and like what I can use as leverage in my conversation with them. Like, if it's tax delinquent, if it's in a tax suit, if there's a lis pendens on it, or what have you, code enforcement, or whatever, you know?
Makes sense. Whenever you talked about building your family trees, there's a million ways to skin a cat. What would be like your process? Like, how do you do that?
So, I since I'm a pen and paper person, I like to look at it and like make notes and like kind of map it out on paper first. Not like the whole thing, right? But just like a couple key people. Yeah. And I'll even go to Ancestry and they have this thing where you can save a record to it's called save it to your shoe box. I don't know if you've ever noticed that.
Uh-uh.
So, you can save it to your shoe box. And I love that analogy because when you think about it, like people in the past, they would have a shoe box full of photos, right? So, it's like when you go to your home page, there's a your shoe box is in the bottom right corner where you can access all of your saved clippings of records. So, I like to first identify like if I was looking for you, right? If I was building your tree out, I [clears throat] would go look for your name and like put some filters in and if I if I have a couple options, I'm going to look at those individually and say, "Okay, this is the person I'm looking for." I'm going to save to shoe box so I know if I need to come back tomorrow, this is the correct Logan Fullmer, right?
Got it.
And it will make suggestions as well. So, you kind of have to filter those out because they have errors. They they don't make all the right suggestions, but just I do that first. I confirm the information for the first person, the very the decedent usually, and then I will go on Ancestry and build out a digital tree. So, I like to confirm who I'm looking for, maybe their spouse or kids, and then I'll go online and
So, you're narrowing down your focus right off the bat. Once you get there, then you say, "Okay, now let's build it out."
Exactly. Especially for common names because like John Smith, you know? Like John Smith in Dallas, okay? Um there's going to be very a lot of records, right? And you need to know like, "Okay, there's a couple that were born in July 1952, but I need to know mine was July 19th, 1952 versus July 4th, right? So, it's just people can build the whole set like a whole another family on a tree when they're targeting this other person and not even know it until later.
That reminds me, there's a lady named I think it was like Ali May or something like that in San Antonio. She She She They basically was an heir of a property and there was a her husband or her dad died and left a life estate to somebody else. And the appraisal district was in the guy's name. So, we were doing research and ended up contracting people a child with the same name had passed away. We called their children and explained this and because we said, "Well, your relative was this person." They're like, "Yeah, it was." We're like, "Did they ever come to San Antonio?" Well, that person lived in San Antonio. They're like, "Yeah." We're like, "Oh my gosh, okay, we got the right people." We sent them a contract and negotiated a great deal. I mean, the whole thing was there and then they started filling out their uh affidavit of heirship here and some stuff wasn't adding up and we're like, "Hold on, this doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense." We get our title commitment back.
Yeah.
We started digging and realized this was the wrong one. So, we had to call these people and say as we completed the research, our attorney pointed some stuff out. We looked it up. So, then we called the the right person's child and it was one person and she told me "Get lost." and hung up. And I was like, "Dude, we're like 3 days from closing and this deal just fell apart."
Yeah.
And then I remember trying, trying, trying. She lived in Vegas, worked at a U-Haul store as a manager. So, I went on my honeymoon to Vegas and I brought $10,000 with me on the plane, went to that place with a deed hoping I could run to a notary shop at lunch with her. She threw me out of the U-Haul place.
Oh my goodness.
She didn't want it. She wouldn't have anything to do with us. And my wife was sitting in the rental car like [laughter] told her she shouldn't have done this. And then I I I finally was like, forget it. It had a bunch of tax owed, got a call about 9 months later, realtor says, "Hey." And I saw it it was popped up on the tax sale list again. It'd been on it over and over and over. He called and said, "Hey, I've got this property. I'm talking to the seller. They're ready to work with me. They're going to sell for a fair price." And again, he goes, "It's a Ah, it's Brunette Street." Here me the address. Anyway, he said the address. I was like, "Oh, yeah, 57,000 owed in taxes, worth about 120, I'll buy it for 1." He goes, "What in the hell?" And I was like, "Oh, you're talking to so-and-so. He's working over at U-Haul." He's like, "What?" She Google She Googled realtor, called a realtor and said, "I'm about to lose my house. Can you help?" I'm like, this freaking nut job. And he was going to give her less money than me.
Yeah.
Anyway.
It It's That's disheartening, [laughter] right? When you put all this effort in and you even went to go see her. I mean, it's it's hard. That But it's the name of the game, right? It's hard, but that's why I will also say like understanding the title is so important. Like that's the most important thing is who's the owner, right? And then when you go down the the family line, like then understanding like I need to target this person who's the correct John Smith, right?
[laughter]
Annie May. Um so it's just that's why it's like don't cut corners when you're doing that. And don't work too fast because you can miss a detail that will that will put you on the wrong track, you know?
Alters the space-continuum of time in your world. [laughter]
Yeah, exactly.
What would What would be like um So you said you work with some of these folks and you do it I guess for a fee base or for JV.
Yeah.
What do you prefer JVs?
I prefer JVs just because obviously it's like equity based. Yeah.
So what does that look like when folks come Do you have a standard like, all right, it's this rate or is it a split or what's that look like?
It kind of depends on the situation, but for the most part it's 50/50 because I'm kind of being brought in. So Carl kind of coined the term as a breakthrough specialist. So whether you have like a contract or not, sometimes it's just a prospect level like, "Hey, this property's been abandoned for 20 years. It's going to tax auction, you know, disease owner, whatever. And so, I'm like, okay, I'll give it a shot, right? And I'm taking the risk thinking that it might not pan out, right? But that's why it's 50/50. But if it's if you have a contract, and you're like, hey, we're stuck, we can't find an heir, or this guy's missing, or there's a title issue, I'm still asking for the same thing because I'm breaking through the deal, right? I'm going to get you to closing table as best I can.
Right. A little bit of something's better than a little bit of nothing.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
I like that. So, somebody comes in and says, hey, I have a lot of information about this situation, but I'm missing the last piece, or I'm under contract, and and I'm still missing this. So, either way, I'll take half, and let's do it.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Okay, I like that.
And I'm flexible. I mean, it depends on the situation, too, like share with me the deal. Like, if it's a really skinny deal, and you're not making much, like, hey, I'm you know, let's work together, and like, I get it, you know? We all have those deals where maybe initially it was going to be a bigger, you know, chunk, and it kind of dwindled down after all the liens came up, and all this kind of stuff. Like, I get that. So,
That happens.
you know, I am a I am compassionate to situation, but it's just I understand my value at the same time. That's taken a long time to kind of get to that point because I have been taken advantage of so many times. Um to where I'm like, no, I know my worth now, you know what I mean? But it's it's taken a long time to do that, you know? [laughter]
What would you say are deal breakers when a person calls you and says, here's my deal? What are the deal breakers off the bat?
Um I don't really have a lot because I like I just want to help people, right? That's just kind of like my nature.
Mhm.
Is I'm like I just get excited about deals. I just want to do deals, right? So, I'm like, cool, let me look at it, you know? Um but if if the equity's obviously not very good, um if they don't a lot of times people come to me, and they don't just don't understand what title issues are, like, how to cure them, right? So, sometimes they think, oh, one probate, blah blah blah, and I'm like, oh, like in Florida, okay? They can't do affidavits there. So, I'm like, oh, this is actually a four-probate deal."
And they're like, "What?"
Yeah, so it's just
Why can't they all go in one probate?
Yeah. And sometimes, you know, those deal breakers don't come up initially until I take a look at it and I'm like, "Okay, we have three post-deceased heirs. You got to do a probate for each one of those. They each have three kids and a surviving spouse." Like, you know, you're looking at 12 heirs or whatever, right?
I feel bad when you tell them that and you're like, "I'm done." And they're like, "No, no, no." You're like, "Dude, I'm out."
I I feel bad because I'm like, I know it's going to break their heart in a sense they got excited. Um and I'm like, "Hey, you know, but I'm also having like a consultation essentially like, hey, I just want to understand what you're kind of up against. You can totally like, no harm, no foul if you say, I don't want to do this. I'm not going to go around you and do it, right? Because it was your deal.
There's a lot of trust There has to be a lot of trust in this little community.
And that's how you burn bridges really fast and I don't want that. I never want that. And I'm like, my relationships are so much more meaningful to me than a deal, right? No matter what the price is. So, it's just I'm honest with them and I say, "Hey, I don't If this was me and I was doing this deal, I wouldn't do it because the risks are far greater than the reward or, you know, and sometimes it's a great conversation. Hey, it is one heir." Like, awesome. Even if it went up maternal, paternal, and then there's no maternal heirs at all and it went to paternal, you know, like in Florida at least. Um I've had great conversations like that. Like, that's exciting, you know? When you think there's going to be 20 heirs and it's only one. So, which is awesome.
The worst are like, they had no kids and no siblings. They're like, it goes to the parents.
No aunts.
And it goes over and down and you're just like, at that point, it's it's aging so far backwards.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, in in Texas, we have some really old cities here. East Coast has some really old populations.
Yes.
South Texas and East Coast, I think are two of the oldest populations. You have some on the West Coast, but most of those have been transacted enough that even if it had old population from when people were showing up, that's been moved beyond.
I I say Philadelphia, too, is like really there's some super old transactions there. I remember Adam Garner
Yeah.
he had me research some deals for him in 2021 and I was like what I've never looked at Philadelphia right so I'm like what is this place? I'm looking at deeds from 1800 like there's been no deeds since then 1850 or whatever.
Wow.
I just didn't know that really existed you know until obviously that's why I'm always game to look you know. Um I was on a phone call with this girl Aliyah she's 17 years old she reaches it researches for her dad.
Really?
And she's in college yeah I was so impressed by her and we were looking up a a deed in Tarrant County. It's a historical deed and I had to call the clerk's office and cuz every county's a little different.
Yeah.
And sometimes they have this county fusion website that you go and you can look at old deeds but they're not indexed so it's like sometimes it's hard to you have to look at 300 pages to find the right one and then you can find the book and page number and pull up the deed right? So it's that kind of situation so why I love this business so much is because I'm helping people in all their respective areas I'm learning something new every day.
Oh my goodness.
About those areas or about how to research and it's it's really meaningful for me I love it.
There's nothing like seeing like a vesting deed from like 1927 or some of them in the 1800s and I'm like how did this happen? How is it not transacted?
Where we see it in a lot of places when you got ag exemption
Okay.
because if it's a state's got some property taxes even if they're low when you're talking a 100 years
Yeah.
at some point when there's low with ag exemption people will pay the $200 a year whether they own much or not they some one of one of 40 people use it no one really cares.
Yeah.
Some point either that person dies or someone just says forget about it or they lose that the one of the times I see lots of ag exemption falls off 3 years later that sucker is being sold for delinquent taxes.
Yeah yeah.
And you look back and say whoa do we have vesting deeds from like 1890 1920s.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's shocking that it's continued that long, but I've noticed that happens more in rural areas.
Absolutely. And like the families just don't know what to do, right? Or maybe like the kids passed away at an early age, too. They had kids, they you know, then the kids don't the grandkids don't know what to do, and it's just it's kind of sad to see, right? Like now we're six generations deep, and there there's 20 heirs, or there's three heirs, or whatever it is.
And you're building out this affidavit of heirship that's just ginormous, you know?
Yeah.
People are old, they don't remember, people are dead. You are not going to find someone if we did an affidavit of heirship for a vesting deed that was in like the like 1910 or 1908 or something.
Yeah.
And the decedent died, they got the property somewhere in the middle of their life, they died 30 years later. So that means they were dying they died in like the '30s or '40s. There's nobody alive that has ever met them.
Wow.
So it was a bunch of it was trouble. We're having to find like we found a old school teacher that was like near deathbed, but they said they had talked to their children, and they'd come in, you know, they'd come to the school, it's a small community.
Yeah.
And we got to thinking, this is the best we've got.
Yeah.
So we did our best to put together an affidavit of heirship because we were worried that if we went into a probate court and said, "Let's just do an administration of estate."
Yeah.
We don't have any better records in this anyway. You don't really have anybody to testify. She ain't leaving the hospital bed.
Like the same thing, right? The same data.
That's what I thought. So in that case, we said, "Let's just do the affidavit of heirship." There was like 15 or 18 dead people in that one. So it was a I mean, it was massive, like 20 pages long, 30 pages.
Wow.
It all, and we provided all the backup documents. It was a massive file to the title company cuz they were like, "Dude, we've never seen an affidavit like this before." [laughter] We were like, "Us either."
Yeah.
But it worked that way.
Yeah.
So when you look at it like economically from a deal like that, you In that case, that was 5, 6, 7 years we had made 100 grand on a $50,000 spend.
Yeah.
Today, I don't know if we would do it with that many people and all that.
But at the time, that's some of those projects are what helped us figure out like how this business works.
Absolutely.
Yes, I know these real estate stories are crazy and yes, I do have a coaching program where a lot of these folks have built a business or revived their own. Look, do these testimonials sound like something that you want to be your story? Look, it is possible. If you're ready or you think you're ready, why don't you listen to the video and at least find out if it's for you. It's linked down in the comments in this episode, so go check it out.
Well, and I think too like reverse engineering it, I love to do that because I mean only helping out like your escrow title officers, but you're like hey, what would the underwriter need for me to clear title on this, right? And just kind of asking those questions and you can kind of template it for a future transactions, right? But there are those ones that are kind of hairy and you're like oh, I need I'm going to need some random affidavit signed besides the affidavit of heirship, right? But it's just that helps me understand like from the underwriter's perspective why they need it.
Yeah.
Right? And it's I love learning that because it's just another layer of education, you know?
With you being like a breakthrough specialist and going to find the last people and helping connect the dots, there's a big piece of this that's the title abstracting and examining and underwriting part that doesn't sound sexy that so many people are missing. It sounds fun finding someone, but it doesn't sound fun digging through the land record for 3 days, putting the other fact patterns and deciding will this work for title company or what do I have to do to fix it. That's probably the gap in a lot of people's newbies knowledge.
For sure. And I I mean, obviously love it, but it's just I like to do my own abstract before I even get a title commitment, right? And I've even had title commitments come in after I've done my own abstract where there's deeds missing.
Yeah, you're like wait a second, let me send you this. Yeah.
No, and I and I like I take their title commitment and then I input all of my deeds where they should be, you know? I input them and highlight them.
Yeah.
And
They're just like what the heck?
You find this? And I'm like, if you search by legal description in these different variations like if it was Addison Heights, right? Well, sometimes they're they're abbreviated, you know, ADDSON or SN H, you know, GHTS, right? Instead of the full spelling. Just seeing the different deeds that pop up and seeing how they're abbreviated when they're recorded, right? And then taking that, doing a new search. Like that has been huge for me. So,
Where did you learn to do this?
Just trial and error, seriously.
[laughter]
Um when I I started researching um well, I got into the business in 2014 and my mentor at the time, her name was Mary Jo Wilson. She became like a second mom to me. She's amazing. She was She taught me how to do surplus funds. And it's pretty research heavy because you're finding like the the rightful owner, right? To get them their money. Well, in the case of a deceased owner, right? So, I started to kind of learn the process early on and then I just kept digging and digging and digging cuz I wanted to understand more and, you know, to keep going. So, just with my own deals, I've spent 40 plus hours on my own deals. One I did like 100 hours on one.
Oh.
In 2018. This was like
Let's talk about that one. Let's study study that.
Yeah, so I was first wholesaling. I did my first deal in 2018 and I was This was going to be my second deal. I um this property was tax delinquent. It was on the code enforcement list for being vacant, transient, squatter heavy.
Is that why you chose that one?
Yes. I love code enforcement because and I love tax delinquent and the combos. Cuz what I found that like when I download a tax delinquent list, I might get in Sac County, it might be like 15,000 records or 20,000 that are one installment or more delinquent. And you have to be 5 years delinquent in California before you go to tax auction. So, I'm going to get this massive list from Sac County, but if I go to the city of Sacramento code enforcement, they have a minimal list of code enforcement, right? So, I can just It gives me like a shortcut cuz most of these are tax delinquent, right?
People always ask, "How do I filter my list?" Well, if you cross these two, that'll filter down significantly.
That I always tell people like go after code enforcement, especially for the older communities, the older houses. Like the newer houses, there won't be as many, right? Um so, anyway, I saw it on there, I drove it, it was boarded up. Um, I so I said, I'm going to go and knock the neighbors, right? So, I went across the street and the guy was like, "No, the bank owns that house." And I said, and I'm showing him my app. I'm like, "No, the lady owns it and I know she's deceased, I'm trying to find next of kin, have you seen anybody over here?" And he said, "No, the bank owns it." I'm like, whatever. I wasn't getting anywhere with him, right? So, he's like, "But you know who should sell is the duplex next door because um, one side's vacant and the other side's a hoarder and like he keeps getting code enforcement fines for the owner, right?" And I said, "Oh." And I look over there and the guy is working on his car. He's underneath his car working. So, I was like, "I'm going to go over there, right?" So, I go over there and I just start talking to him and he opens up to me.
I pitched him um, on his. I said, "Hey, I just spoke to the neighbor about the house next door, but he told me that the owner of this property is looking to sell." And he's like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Do you happen to have her phone number? You know, I'd love to call her and
I'll even give you $500 referral fee, right?" And I'll give you a little bit of time, whatever. And he's like, "Okay." So, he gives me her number and then, you know, they came up from the Bay and they met me and it was like a really easy deal, right? But his side was a hoarder's mess, right? There was rats, I mean, it was my dad and I were like helping him move out. I mean, he had mattresses in the front yard that had been out there for months getting wet and all this stuff.
Anyway, so you know, it's just door knocking the neighbors is so huge. Like they usually are very helpful and can give you something, you know?
"So, how did that deal work? You talked to the seller, you said, "Hey, I'm interested."
"Yeah."
"Who threw out a price first?"
"Um, they wanted me to give a price. So, I did the research. It was a duplex in like a really good area."
"What's it worth?"
"So, I don't even remember. I only made $10,000 on it. It's like they were really tight on their numbers and it was in a trust, so it was easy peasy. Um, you know, they were a little more savvy when it comes to real estate, so I was okay with it."
"assigned it then?"
"I assigned it, yeah."
"pay. Everything out there is worth hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands."
"Yeah. So, it was it was a fun deal for me and I kept digging on that one next door cuz I wanted to find a next of kin, and I was taking the code enforcement officer to lunch, like just to like, "Hey, tell me what's going on." And he finally was like, "Okay, there's a there's a niece, right? I you know, she reached out to us. Her name is Jasmine." I said, "Okay." So, I called her, and she's like, "We just want to get the photo albums out of there. Like,"
"Game over."
"And by this point though, it had been assigned to a receiver."
"Mhm."
"The county assigned a receiver, which is like basically, usually they're an attorney, someone that takes temporary ownership of the the property, and they usually improve the property. They'll flip it, and then"
"Oh, really?"
"Yeah, they'll actually flip it."
"All right, so let's So, folks who don't know, like, a receiver can work in bankruptcy, or depending on the the jurisdiction, the state,"
"Yeah."
"like in y'all's case in California, a municipality, whoever does a tax collection there, can appoint a receiver, and they tip basically, they're Once that judge's order points him as a receiver, they're inherently the title holder. Although, there's no deed, but the judge's order is basically their vesting document."
"Absolutely."
"They're the title holder,"
"Yeah."
"and we we don't see that that much in a lot of states, but some of them you do."
"Yeah."
"They take control,"
"Yeah."
"then they go figure out how to sell the thing, deal with debts and liens and judgments and whatever, and then pay the balance to the tax debt, and then whatever's left over, those would be ex- surplus proceeds."
"Yeah. Yeah, that goes back to the family."
"But in your case, you're saying they'll fix it and bring max value."
"Yes."
"That's shocking. That's crazy."
"and they like, I don't know what the profit split is or what their fee is for doing that, but they they make a whatever, they make money doing it."
"Wow."
"there is an usually there's an excess that goes back to the family,"
"Yeah."
"right? But I've only really seen that happen when it's like in really high-end neighborhoods where this house is a big nuisance, and the neighbors are calling and saying, "Do something, right?" And"
"Oh, you know what? I wonder if it's because they don't want to just sell it to somebody else, and it's still be a mess. They say, "No, we're going to fix the problem.""
"They want the control."
"Yeah."
"So, I've only seen it with like really interesting situations where maybe it's like substandard really dangerous building there was a fire and no one's taking charge to like fix it, you know?"
"Interesting."
"So that was a really but I I spent hundred hundred hours on that one, right?"
"So let's go back. Sorry I just interrupted you. So you said had lunch with the code officer uh told you about the niece they want to photo albums"
"Yeah and then by this point when I I called the city attorney cuz I had just gotten assigned to receiver and he said it's past it's too far gone like it's already assigned to receiver we can't go back we can't change it. And he's like if you were to have called us 3 weeks ago we could have done something. And it's just sad because by this point those photo albums probably gone or destroyed just because there had been so much transients in and out they had boarded up the garage door people were coming in through like under the house like it was pretty gnarly."
"Once a receiver's appointed that means there's somebody involved taking charge."
"Yeah."
"I still feel like if you showed up with a check to pay the debts"
"I don't know."
"can unwind"
"unwind that."
"Maybe you have an attorney show up"
"Yeah."
"say we've got we've got the ability to pay here it is receiver back off cuz at the end of the day what's the whole purpose of all that activity? It's generally to get the tax debt paid. It's a collection effort."
"Yeah yeah."
"And the moment you satisfy debts like everybody's got to stand down I bet."
"Yeah. Yeah I don't know. I didn't know enough about it then you know to really be like oh we can contest this or not. I've never seen one contested but I've never really I haven't looked at like hundreds of cases about it. I've only seen a couple. But um but anyway so I I spent a lot of time on that one cuz I wanted to understand why I wasn't finding someone, right? And there was a lot of name changes there was a lot of So when I talked to the niece the deceased had two daughters the daughters were each married like three plus times."
"Oh."
"So and they were not they never were associated with the property they lived in other states like I mean I just could not put it together. And so it it just took a lot of time and then I was pretty still new into it. So it It a great learning opportunity."
"Yeah. It sounds like there was a lot of like rabbit trails on that one."
"Yeah, for sure."
"[laughter]"
"When a person's disassociated, married multiple times, sometimes when they have kids that helps tie stuff up. But what one of the things that's nuts, the two things that drive me the biggest crazy when you're researching are when legal descriptions change of property, like when they break it down to smaller pieces. I hate that. And then when people get remarried, it's it usually doesn't happen to men cuz they don't change their name, but women, when their name changes"
"Yeah."
"re-corroborate all this [snorts] information."
"Yeah, and even aliases. I've had deals where there's been aliases and they haven't gone around like by their true name in a long time. Like um adoption can really throw an you know, you know, a needle into things. Um just you have to like you're trying to stay focused, right? But there are these rabbit trails you have to go down to make sense of it. Um that can be challenging, right? But it's just having the the capacity to to keep going, you know, and some so many people get so close and they stop."
"Mhm."
"When that if they would have kept going, they would have found the answer. But I mean, at this point for me it's like it's almost forensics now. Like"
"Yeah."
"I'm looking at signatures on deeds and I'm looking at old, you know, I did one for Al Nicoletti where I had to look at old Jacksonville maps just to be able to figure out if the address had changed because I was looking at census records prior to 1930 and they weren't indexed at all."
"Oh."
"going page by page by page looking at the on the side is the street, right? And like they're assigned to different precincts and I wanted to see if those precincts had changed over time and I mean, it was a lot."
"Uh people don't realize this, but the mailing address is nothing but a mailing address and for emergency services and utilities, that's it. And they also don't realize that streets' names change."
"Absolutely."
"So when you have somebody in an old old old record, this is 234 Omaha, that street is now Kansas and it's 237 Kansas."
"Yeah, totally."
"What?"
"Yeah. [laughter] And sometimes they'll be like A and B and I mean, there's just so many weird things, you know, so that's why like paying attention to the deeds is so important, you know."
"So I learned that looking at Sanborn maps. Washington and Whitaker was a survey company from up north that came down and surveyed the original 36 acres, the original township, 36 acres of San Antonio. So they had all these subdivisions and all this stuff made but there was no incorporation of city. So in the early 20s, they were hired. It took them almost 10 years to fully survey this place, the original township. But it's then um and they made what's called the new city block maps. So they had Sanborn fire insurance maps and the new city block maps. And there was no official subdivisions here. That was considered like the grandfathered plat of the original township. But that's stuff from the 20s, that stuff's 100 years old now."
"Yeah, it's changed so much, yeah."
"Yeah, so when you're looking at that old stuff, if you have to go back that far, you're looking at streets that have changed and the Sanborn maps would show a building and it would say like it'd have a red dot for a metal roof or a an unfilled in dot for a nonmetal roof and then the masonry building would have an M and then the wood building would have a W. Yeah, it had this like little key to it. But it's gosh, it's been a long time since I had to dig like that."
"[laughter]"
"Yeah, I mean, there there's only been a handful I've had to do that and it's it's fun, you know, but it's you have to pay attention to those details really you have to really refine it and look, you know, I don't almost at a granular level and it can be very overwhelming, you know."
"Yeah."
"And it's I mean I remember I was doing that on a plane. I was buying Wi-Fi so I could like [laughter] like look at hundreds of pages of census records to you know, look at all this stuff but um yeah, it's definitely gotten to the point where most of the things I'm brought into now are like at a forensic level. I had this one deal I just closed in North Carolina. I brought in was brought in originally to look for the son. Father son owned this house at 50/50 and they had the same name except for middle name was different. So, uh I was brought in last June to find the son who was a transient, who was living on the streets, and my JV partner was under contract with the dad. Well, the dad had a best friend that was"
"need to talk to the son because the mom died?"
"No, no, cuz they owned 50/50 of this house. Like just they were on title together. So, um the dad's friend had limited power of attorney over the dad because the fire there was a fire that happened at the property. And this was the son's house, okay? Fire happened at the property, uh the the son lived there, was now displaced, like and this friend of the dad got a limited power of attorney so he could talk to the insurance company."
"Got it."
"so after we after I had this call with this guy, okay, you're under the contract with the dad, I'll look for the son, right? I didn't think anything bad of it and so I started looking for the son. I went to his Facebook page and I started seeing like, hey, there's there's the same people that are commenting on his posts, it seems to be good friends. Skip trace them, made contact with them. They're like, we do have a channel to communicate with him, but we're not going to give you his phone number."
"We have a channel to communicate with him? You send him smoke signals? Like, tell me."
"Well, you'll learn why. So, I'm like, okay, can you get him a message? Like, we'd love to chat with him about this property, right? They kind of go ghost on us, right? So, I'm like, okay, well, then we find out the dad the dad's friend signed a purchase agreement with someone else a couple weeks prior, right? So, it's a memo file, right? When we open title, memo file the same day, right?"
"I look at the memo, I'm like, oh, I know this guy. I'm just going to call him up cuz I've helped this guy, right? So, I call him up, I'm like, hey, we have a cooperating seller, you guys have a contract, you know, like, what if we work together? And he's like, no, we're going to sue them. Like, we're going to make good money on this. We're going to sue the seller for specific performance. I'm like,"
"Oh, cuz they signed a contract with the seller and the seller chose to not close."
"Yes."
"And now"
"with us. And we didn't know, you know, any of this until now."
"Right."
"So, then um we realized Larry that the the dad's friend assigned their purchase agreement. I said, hey, he only has limited power of attorney for the insurance claim, not to sign the real the real estate. So, you have an invalid purchase agreement. We have a cooperating seller. So, how about we just all you know and he has a partner"
"already said let's work together. If you didn't listen the first time, you damn sure better listen now or you get nothing."
"And he was like, "Okay." He's like, "Well, I have a partner on it, but okay." So, now there's four of us."
"[laughter]"
"So, there's four of us. So, then we're like, "Okay, let's all get to the closing table. Now, the seller the seller's friend is getting squirrely on us, right? Because they found another person who's going to pay more."
"Oh god."
"And so, I'm like, "We need to target"
""I'm going to sue the guy.""
"Yeah, I'm like, "We need to target the son. Let's go after the son." And then we find this we see this deed that was recorded signed from the son quick claiming his interest to the dad and I said, "I don't think this is right. I don't think this is the son.""
"Oh."
"So, then I look up So, then the dad's friend made us a comment to my JV partner and said, "Oh, you know, um if they want to pursue suit against us, they have one thing coming cuz like that deed was that notary was BS." And I'm like, "Okay, let's look this up." So, I look her up. She's legit. I call her. I'm like, "Hey, who did you meet that day? Who signed the deed?" And he's She's like, "Two two 80-year-olds.""
"What do they look like?"
"I'm like, "Can you sign an affidavit for us?" Yeah, no problem. So, she signs an affidavit. We finally I call the friend of the son. I'm like, "We need to get a hold of the son right now. There's fraud happening, you know, all this stuff." Cuz then we find out the dad cashed the insurance check for $121,000 as well signed for the son. Cashed it cashed the check that was under This was the son's insurance policy. So, this whole thing. So, then I'm creating this timeline. We hired an attorney. We sued the dad, the friend, USAA, and the bank."
"Bam."
"And then they're like, "Okay, okay, we'll settle." Right? They deeded it over to the son so we can work with the son and then they got he got $90,000 insurance"
"did you find the son?"
"So, after I called the friend and I was like, "We need to call We need to talk to him right now." This is December. We like, "There's fraud happening. They're going to steal They're going to steal his house.""
"Your gatekeeping needs to stop. Now it's serious. Here's why. Then they believe Then they believe that."
"So, where was the son at?"
"So, he was living in hotels living off of his So, his mom had passed away within the last few years, left him an IRA. He had exhausted his IRA to stay in these hotels. They had an 8-year-old daughter. They're sleeping at Greyhound stations, just surviving. His His wife was in a wheelchair with RA. All these things. I'm just like, this is horrific, right? So, me and my business partners put them in a hotel up for for 6 weeks while we did the litigation, the initial litigation. And then um we were able to complete the deal. But I mean, that who we never would have thought they would have turned into that. But you know, that was really rewarding, too, because it's like that somebody needed an advocate, you know, at the end of the day. But just someone to pay attention to like what what was happening. I'm like, this is not This is not right, you know? It's horrible."
"It's sad that that kind of bad actors, like the two that were doing the fraud, it happens all the time everywhere."
"Yeah."
"And some guy, his son, he took his He was stealing. He's taking advantage of his son, his own son. And that goes that goes on so often and no one knows about it."
"Yeah."
"They sell the house, he take the insurance claim. The kid got shorted a couple hundred thousand dollars probably, or would have."
"Yeah, for sure."
"half of it."
"Yeah."
"And nothing happens. And and even worse, if you were to go to the district attorney with all that information, guess what they would do? Nothing."
"Yeah."
"They're going to prosecute murders and a $30 million Ponzi scheme. They just don't give a [ __ ] about Johnny and his house."
"know. It's sad. Yeah."
"Dang."
"So, that that was a really rewarding one for me."
"How long did that one take from like start to finish?"
"Well, what's funny is we signed the contract the day before for your your um January event."
"Oh, really?"
"So, I was like I was on a high coming to your event. I'm like, this is amazing."
"Yeah. And then I just thought like these guys are going to settle as soon as we file suit, right? And then they were kind of playing games and like making threats. And I'm like, game on. Game on."
"Yeah."
"And you know, it just took a took a lot longer than I thought. But they did come around."
"person is worse than suing a somewhat smart person."
"Yeah."
"A really smart person will many times argue for a little longer."
"Yeah, yeah."
"A stupid person, dude, they don't realize how dumb they are and how bad of a position they are in and they keep fighting sometimes."
"Well, cuz sometimes it's all they have. Like I'm I'm suing an adverse possessor right now in in Sacra in Sacramento area and I've been I've been involved for the last 2 years, but my seller's been involved in the litigation for 5 years."
"5 years? An adverse possessor is not someone who normally has money. They're just like holding up in somebody's house. They're deadbeat. Are they doing this pro se?"
"He's you know, he isn't an attorney. So I He hasn't paid rent and so when I researched him, he is just a I think he's almost like a He should have been an attorney, but he never went to law school cuz he loves to sue people. So he lost his house in 2014 to foreclosure. He's He sued Wells Fargo for wrong wrongful foreclosure and then he sued the county of Sacramento for wrongful eviction. Well, he filed his complaint pro per per and then they responded and he didn't do anything. So it got dismissed, right?"
"But he still pushed that. That took 6 months."
"Right. So and just time, right?"
"Mhm."
"And same thing."
"And then he was like, wait a second, there's a vacant house down the block. Let me go there."
"Well, so he was actually hired to clean up the property by It's a long story. There's a bankruptcy involved. There's so many layers to it. It's just been I've learned so much on this deal, but so I'm excited for hopefully it'll be coming to an end soon."
"happens? The guy gets hired to clean a place out cuz he's a lowlife and he needs like work."
"Yeah."
"And then he moves in."
"He moves in without permission. Um and he paid a lump sum of 4 years taxes thinking that that counted as 4 years."
"money?"
"I think that he I don't know actually. I don't really know. Um at this point I really want to hire like someone that can look at financials, but I'm like that will come in time. But he basically is now saying I'm an owner by adverse possession and if but if I don't win this, I want you know, $100,000 minimum for unjust enrichment because I've improved the property and it looks like crap. So I'm like, yeah, right. Well, now he's saying he wants over $200,000, almost $300,000 I'm like prove it, man, but nobody asked you to make those repairs."
"It's like $550. Yeah."
"Okay. So unless unless he got authority or has like an interest and other people do owe him a share cuz he prevented waste from it occurring. That's a gift, dude."
"I know."
"One of the very first properties I did in San Antonio was get I owned it was on a corner and I owned three of the four. It would have made a half acre by the last corner assemblage piece. He was getting ready to go to tax sale and there was like two grand owed in taxes and I was as dumb as that guy at the time. [laughter] I went and paid the taxes cuz I didn't want to go to the tax sale. I didn't know how to go to the tax sale. I didn't know anything. I just paid the taxes."
"Yeah."
"Thinking like I have a claim against it."
"Yeah."
"And I called the family and told them I have an adverse possession claim and I was so wrong. It was embarrassing. Thank God it didn't get out of hand, but they came back and settled. I remember thinking and I learned that it turned out I'll never forget I was sitting in this attorney's office downtown San Antonio. And he goes, Logan, that's a gift. And I was like, no, no, no, I paid it on their behalf. He goes, what part of that property do you own? I'm like, yeah, but I but it's like it's a tax lien. He's like like that's a gift. And I remember just thinking like gift gift gift. [laughter]"
"Yeah. I mean, that adverse possession is kind of thrown around, you know, like easily in a sense, but that you have to perfect your claim perfectly in order to really win and sometimes you could even do that and still lose, you know, so it's just there's so many things that can kind of come into play."
"You know, that's actually a case study that we have coming up at our conference. We bought a property and a guy was basically squatting."
"Yeah."
"And he said, this is my place and it was like an office he was calling it was a house but it had been converted into an office."
"Okay."
"We're like, dude, you do not own this and he filed an adverse possession affidavit, but he hadn't paid taxes. He did improve it a little bit, but I think people get out of hand and they say they read the statute and there's generally like five pillars that they've got to"
"or five hurdles after me and they'll do like two of the five."
"Or they'll even pay some taxes, but it's not consecutive."
"Exactly."
"They'll literally leave out a year of taxes. We go pay it. We break their consecutive claim."
"Yeah."
"And we're like, "Dude, you didn't meet.""
"Yeah."
"And then they This is what they say. "No, no, no. I own that house by adverse possession." I say, "Well, you realize adverse possession is a law, a statute in most places, but it requires a judge's order to perfect the claim. So, can I see your judge's order?" "No, no, I haven't going to gone to court, but I've adversely possessed it." I'm like, "So, what you're saying is you have a claim, but it's not been perfected. So, we challenge that claim. If it's not perfect, you're going to lose.""
"Yeah."
"And then they're just like, "Wait, what?" I'm like, "All that time spent on Google and all this effort and you didn't figure that out?""
"And it's like there there's so much risk, you know, that they're putting it even if they paid the taxes and then someone interrupted their claim. Like, that's the risk you take, right?"
"Right. Oh, they send people out to paint the thing. Or some of these people, think about this for a minute. Think about next month if you were to go move into a house that you didn't own, that wasn't in great condition, and you live there and spend your life and your family and get to know neighbors."
"Yeah."
"What the [ __ ] Are you crazy? Like"
"I know."
"[laughter]"
"What?"
"Yeah."
"That's [snorts] the That's like the the introduction to the kind of people you're going to be dealing with if you want to go after this stuff."
"Yeah. I mean, and there have been cases where like someone brings me a deal and they're saying, "Oh, the nephew like it's a piece of land. Oh, the nephew is an heir, but there's the other heirs we don't know about, but he's maintained the property for 20 years." I'm like, "Who's been paying the taxes?" And he's them, but now it's tax delinquent, right? So, I'm like, "Well,"
"Right. Well, not lately."
"There is a statute limitations usually and you know, all these kinds of things, but sometimes I'm like, "Hey, they do it they may have a case for adverse possession. It's something you should look into, you know?" But again, it's like it can be tough to to prove, you know? Cuz you have to meet all the elements."
"Gosh."
"Yeah."
"With this much experience, there's probably a couple things you could step back from like top-down view and tell operators like these would be the top three things that I think you need to like remember, focus on. These are fundamentals for you. What would those three things be?"
"Um I think one, you have to love this. You have to love this game in order to really be successful. Um I think that the chase and the hunt, it makes it fun, right? Just make sure you're having fun, right? Um that's number one. And then two, just um I don't have to know everything to give something a try. And I feel like a lot of people have to know every element before they even get on the phone. And you don't. You know, get a couple key pieces and just make a phone call, right? Just try to connect with someone. They could give you the whole story on the first call, you know? So, a lot of people get hung up on like, "I need to know everything to answer questions and to I don't even know what to say and to like have the perfect script." Just don't. Don't even worry about it. Um imperfectly perfect is fine. You know what I mean? So, just kind of jump in. Um don't be afraid to jump in is two. And then three, um networking is huge. Like having those connections. I mean, I've reached out to you for some questions. I've reached out to you know, Carlsville Vogel. He He and I, how we met was I knew him on Facebook, but he had an air He had an owner near me that he wanted to buy out for this deal and it was a complicated situation, but he posted on Facebook and was like, "Hey, I need someone to go door knock a house in Folsom, California. Who Who's down?" And I mean, by the time I saw it, had like 30 comments. So, I was like, "Oh, man. Someone's already got this, right?" And people were like from LA saying, "I'll drive up there 6 hours. I'll drive up there for you, Carl. We love you." And I'm like, "Hey, it's 10 minutes for me. Like, I'll go door knock it." And like that's how we connected, right? So, just like broadening your networking is so your network is so important because if you get stuck on something, you can always call someone. Like, "Hey, I need help. Can you help me on this? Like, I'll bring you in the deal." You know what I mean? Just take care of your connections. That's That probably should be number one, but I mean, it's just as important. I would say that. Yeah."
"I like that. I like that. You have to be obsessed. You really do. There's no way you're going to get somewhere beyond the average without being fully obsessed. In this business, you kind of have to be a nerd, so you kind of have to be an obsessed nerd, which I don't know if either of us maybe want to identify like that, but in order to get In order to have the conversation that we're having today, you have had to have been obsessed at some point, and you had to have been somewhat of a nerd, so"
"Yeah. And And if you think it back, like, you know, Carl, Dave Day, um they're all kind of unique folks. Yeah, well, and plus, like, they went through '08 and like kind of lost everything. A lot of the like top people in this industry, like the OGs, they've lost everything in '08, and they rebuilt cuz they love this game. They love it. And they love, you know, the people that are in it, and they love helping people and doing deals, you know? And it's just I get excited about it. I get excited hearing other people's stories about deals cuz I can learn something from it, and then I get excited working on deals with other people, and obviously doing my own, but yeah, just the the people in this business are so meaningful."
"They're fun. I like it. When you go to a wholesale conference, it's a different breed of folk than it is when you go here. For better or worse, I guess this is our breed of folks, so"
"Absolutely. And that's what keeps me coming back to I mean, I go to every event you have. I mean, even indirectly, I mean, I won I won a ticket to your commercial wholesaling class, [laughter] and it was just kind of a fluke, but I'm like, I was meant to go. And I went, and like, I just every opportunity that I can be in front of you, I try to go, right?"
"Thank you."
"Um because like, I look up to you, and even our first time we met in 2022, I remember I got to your event early cuz I wanted to get a front seat, and you came up to me and you said, and it just like warmed my heart. You said, "I've heard so much about you. I want you to sit up here." And that's where I met Ellis. I sat next to Ellis. I met him"
"All the nerds of the nerds are in the front."
"Yeah, and I'm like I mean that that was huge for me. So, I really appreciate you and just I've met so many people from you. So, I appreciate that."
"that."
"Yeah."
"If you were to go back Steph and tell the Steph today the the Steph 10 years ago something from now, what does that old Steph need to hear from you the today Steph?"
"Um definitely keep going. I was at a C 10 years ago. I was just about to go through my own personal bankruptcy."
"Ooh."
"Um because of a bad partnership. Um and that really I was doing the surplus funds and I was being taught by someone who didn't know what she was doing."
"Mhm."
"And she got me in in trouble. Um and she was lending money to investors and I just didn't I was seeing some things I didn't like and I got out of it. I went home and I filed bankruptcy, right? And I was like, I don't know. I I was really in a low in a low spot."
"Mhm."
"And I just said, I cannot see myself doing anything else than real estate. I love it, right? And I'm going to keep going and I had I just had a baby in 2016. I was going to have another my daughter in 2019. So, I'm just really glad that I persevered, but just to encourage her and and to tell her like you're going to be in where you're supposed to be. Just keep going, you know."
"It's going to be okay."
"Yeah."
"I love it. If anybody wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to do it?"
"Probably Facebook. Um I get a lot of Facebook messages, but Facebook messenger is probably the best way. Yeah. And the group and our group the DPA group, too."
"Oh, yeah. That's right. We try to stay as active as we can in there. Steph, thanks for coming today. This has been fun."
"Thank you."
"All right, y'all. Until next time. My commitment to you is to deliver the most interesting, messy, and profitable real estate deals on earth. And in exchange for that, I only ask that you subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend who can benefit. Let's dive in."