Transcription
[Music] in here today. It must be a special day. Don't never show up. Oh, come one. We come to one session per season.
[Music] Welcome back. Mind the game. We're back, baby. Opening bottles. You know it. We uh have the privilege of one of the greatest players in NBA history here today. No question. Katie, welcome. Appreciate you. Thanks. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
I think I mean while I'm opening this wine, I think the best way to start is like um You guys got anything you guys want to talk about? Maybe. So, we're getting up. Yeah, you might. You think I got enough wine? This is the place to do. This will be the place. Well, just started there, you know. No, I mean for for uh there we go. Poor poor that.
But uh you know, LeBron is the greatest the the leaning scoreer of all time in NBA history. But I think even you would admit there's things about Kevin's game you wish you had. Yeah, for sure. One of the most smoothest, most efficient scores we've maybe we've ever had. Like is there anyone that can do it at every level? Uh not to the capacity he's done it. And I was reading the stat earlier, the fact that he hasn't I don't want to speak like you're not here, but I you're so great. I like to do it sometimes. Thank you, brother. Appreciate K. He hasn't shot under 50% since like 2012. And in a league that um doesn't talk about efficiency enough, cuz I'm one of those efficiency guys. Like I I I hate going out there just chucking up shots or, you know, looking at the box score and I was maybe 8 for 23 or or 9 for 25 or 6 for 18. Like you're going to have those nights for sure. Yeah. You know, but for the majority of the season, like being efficient, you know, is something I've always prided myself on. And this guy is when it comes to three-level score, three-pointers, mid-range, uh, below below the Gary Payeyton area, below the Malone area, and finishing. It's um, we haven't we haven't had a score um, as equipped as as KD in our league ever. Appreciate that. Ever.
Yeah. I mean, add to it, pick and roll with the ball, without the ball, uh, catch and go, transition with the ball, catch and shoot, off the move, pin downs, nail, and, you know, literally there isn't, I I don't think a spot, an action, or a style of play that you couldn't be yourself, be efficient in. And is that something like Katie like you over the years obviously I've seen you continue to get better and like you're better with your game like you know when you first came in you wasn't much of a pick and roll guy you know um just a natural score you know catching goals always had to bounce to your game obviously but I feel like over the last like you know five to seven years you know you start handing the ball picking rolls making decisions making reads you know and still being able to be the efficient ass scorer the dynamic scorer you've been like Was was that conscientious with you or just like, you know, I want to continue to expand my game?
That was the main thing, wanting to expand my game. Um, early on when I came into the league, my first, if I could think about my first 20 games in the league, I felt like I was just catching and shooting. A lot of it was catch and shoot threes, catch and shoot mid-range. I was playing fast. So, you felt it was it was happening so quick. You just felt comfortable rising up. That's all I that's that was the that was my game, just shooting, you know what I'm saying, at that point. So that's what I, you know, fell back on when nothing else work. I get stopped if you know I'm not strong enough yet. Guy hold me up. I'm just going to shoot over you. Yeah. Most and then I didn't shoot well my first two months, three months, maybe my first six months of the season. I think I started to figure out the pace of the game, understanding the pick and roll. I was getting more pin downs. And when I was coming off pick and rolls early in the season, I was just shooting. And I'm looking at my teammates faces. I'm like, damn, he was open. You know what I'm saying? So, like I just started to understand my teammates more and the game more and I wanted to be trusted in every situation on the offensive side of the ball. Coach say I I didn't I didn't want a coach to come back to the huddle. Steve, no side you wanted on I don't it's your team. Coach the team. Whatever side you want to call this player on, I got to be ready to come off this on either angle and shoot from either side. So, I never like being limited that way. So, I was wanting the coach to just have a use me in any way that he wanted me, anywhere on the floor. Yeah. So, I I didn't want him to feel limited with me. So, that was always been my thing.
I think uh it's funny you say that. I was one of the one of the conversations we had previously about um coming to the sideline and a and a and a coach is afraid to flip flip the play because he know that certain guys can't run it on the opposite side. Right. Right. Right. And and I I attest to that like that's and you can get in practice too like we can have we can run the same play over and over and over and if the coach say okay let's run it from the the left side we've been running from the right side guys like three dudes are lost three guys like where what are we doing you know then the main guy then the main cheers cheers absolutely appreciate you and then it's like it's the best player or the most efficient score or the you who got the best matchup, whoever you call him to play for. It's just like when coach says, "Oh, he can't we can't do this because he not strong going left or he can't go right." That just always did something to it was tough for me to go left sometimes and pull up for the jump shot, especially early on my first few years. And I think I started to understand the footwork, the balance, of what it takes to shoot going right from inside the paint, free throw line, extended, college three, NBA three, you know. So, and and that's why in that small detail is the reason I think my game is, you know, rounded.
You prefer going left. I actually now I do. But you started going right. Yeah. But this is this is actually that's interesting to me, right? Because you you it bothered you that you had one side that was weaker than the other. But statistically he prefer and prolific going left. But actually statistically as good or better going right. Yeah. Now sometimes that's because people know you want to go left. Yeah. Exactly. But it also proves like it's just a habit to go left. You just prefer I used to play that way too. I play out of a hesy to the left. I could still do it to the right, but I was just comfortable. Do you feel like you got more leverage in your body going left for some reason? Like, you know, this is a weird one to say, but like when I was in the 10th grade, I sprain my left ankle as a right-handed player, left-handed jumper. I never I didn't want to stop playing, so I played limping around for six months. That ankle's never quite been the same. So, I think like pushing off my right became my facto. That makes sense. And so I could do the rhythm going to the right. But you know, to take it one step further about me, but when I went to Phoenix in 2004, that summer I was like, I can't play this way anymore where I just go all the way left and pull up right. And it bothered me. So I spent that summer saying like, I have to figure this movement pattern out, like left, hard, pull up. And I took it took a summer of like every day trying to get the footwork, the balance, the the stability.
That sounds like you kind of did that early in your career. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy you said that cuz when I got to Golden State and we started working out more, you told me that and it's always stuck, you know, stuck in my mind that like, yeah, the defense know if you going left, most of the time you going all the way to the cup. So, that one two dribble pull up going left has been u a staple for me, but it's more so about the the pickup of the ball. You know what I'm saying? Going left. Like sometimes I try to pick the ball up right here like my normal shot. they swiping that down instead of we do we did this a lot too. I start, you know, changing my pickups and I'm shooting the ball this way now. So, a lot of that stuff is just adjustments to how the def how physical the defense was and and you know me just wanting to get shots off.
But this this you make it sound simple. The reason he's able to do that like take the ball up in different areas is because especially at your size, your balance is so good. Your feet are so good. That's where it all starts with. He gets on balance. So like it he still has legs under him. So it doesn't matter if he brings it up normal. He brings it up here. He brings it up there. He's always still got legs to get under his shot and get that thing up in the air. That's like those are the little bits that people don't understand that you have to work every day getting down, getting deeper, getting in a position to have your legs under you. Yeah. I mean, just being able to understand the power that you have under you and your legs and and and letting that flow through your whole body to get to your jump shot. It take a while for you to understand how much power you really have, but the lower you play, the harder you dribble the ball back up into your pocket. All that small stuff matters if you want to be a good shooter, right?
And it makes sense. I mean, all the detail that you're talking about is, you know, when we talk about efficiency, you know, and there's only been a small select few guys to do this NBA history, the the 9050 40 club or 50 40 90, however you want to break it down. You've done it twice. You've done it twice and it was actually 10 years apart from when you did I think the first time you did it was in 13 and I believe the last time was 23. Yep. Um, but you want to know who's actually the leader in the 50 40 90 club? I think it's this guy. What was it? Four. Four. And I feel like I missed like three. You know what? That's funny. We were talking about We were talking about it my first year with the Lakers here at the end. I was [ __ ] 100 years old, but uh no offense, but um but uh I I think I missed it by a layup, like a one field goal, man. And that stings every time. And I think earlier in my career, I missed it like I shot 897 from the line. And you think back it's like one or two free throws that's for a whole season. That's crazy. That's crazy. So I don't think about the four times doing it. I think about the two times you know you're right there.
How many time How many more times were you close to to that you can remember off the top? I think it was another time in Brooklyn where I had I was like 39% from the three going into the last game. I had to make like four out of six. I was like one for eight. I was just man and I was thinking about it too. I wanted it so bad and it's just like that's that's another part of the mental game. You can get in your own way. Yeah, for sure. Thinking too much about stuff like that. So, yeah. I remember that one time in Brooklyn. I think it was another time in OKC um where I think it was the free throws I might have missed. I like 88 87 for the year. And I free throws for a shooter of your caliber. The free throws drives you crazy, man. It drives you crazy. We talked I think we might have talked I was like 84 this year like 83 82 at one point this year. I was just and that's that's been bothering me mentally kick the ball in the gym when he miss more than anything man like I I being over being over 90% is is key for me but so mid 80s is just not it. Yeah I I can relate with that.
What's your career high you had from the free throw line? Yeah, I think I was career high this year. I was almost at 80 796 or something. I'm rounding my off 80. But the three ball was at what? My career high for my three was 41 I think last year. I think last year I was in 40. Definitely second half of your career your three balls going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Man got just being more like efficient. Just being more efficient with it, too. Like I think your mini too this year stood out even more. I feel like you always hit it but I think you went to it more this year. And um you shot it from deeper this year. You think so? Yeah, I think so. But it's something I still I I to be honest, it's something I've haven't been able to master in my career. Um I work on it. Um improved a lot though. Improved. Yeah. It's but like you know like when you talk about going left and then going right and being efficient like you know going left with my midi I feel really effective with that. I feel like I got great balance with it. I feel like, you know, like you're talking about the speed of how you pick the ball up after it comes off the ground and you know where the pocket is. You know what I'm saying? You know how exactly how to get it back to that pocket, you know, and I know I can go literally I can go straight up and down going left. I can I can fade out, you know. It's just all the powers. All the power is over there. Going right has always been a little like, you know, sometimes my balance is off. Sometimes I don't know if I should fade on the shot or if I should go straight up and down. And it's always kind of [ __ ] with me mentally, even though I work on all of them, you know, but when you, you know, obviously when you get into the frey, you you know, you you don't want the you don't want the defense to dictate what you want to do, obviously. But it's like getting that that that pocket that you were saying like, you know, the one person that that is unbelievable going right with his pocket no matter where it is like Chris Paul. Like he he can almost shoot. Yeah. He can he can do he do all this without even dribbling and keep it and then just and just rock. He can shoot from triple threat or off the dribble. And it also gives him that natural little fade. I can relate to you need that few little inches to get it over the Right. Right. Right. Right.
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Do you feel like you was if you take mid-range you settling like throughout your career? Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, especially my I mean, okay, my first 14, 15 years. Like, there was no need for me to take a lot of mid-range, bro. I saw a clip of him when I was doing research for this take off from like I don't know man it was like near the free throw line and it like the velocity he was traveling what in the world was that in Portland that also comes from like my little league coach too like my little league coach and high school coach they always don't settle like stop settling like and then you got people in the crowd who obviously don't know basketball like we know basketball and they tell you to dunk everything. Everything. Dunk everything. Get to the hole. Dunk everything. By the way, it's people in NBA crowds that do that. Still dunk everything. That's They get disappointed when you Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but I felt like putting pressure, you know, when I entered the league, you know, in 03, you know, it was um I definitely shot a little bit more mid-range my my rookie year because no spacing. There was no spacing. Exactly. I was I was coming off floppies. Like my first basket ever scored in the NBA is a is off a floppy action to the corner. Floppy is hilarious. Fade to the corner shooting a jumper from the short corner. Like I feel like that first stint in Cleveland like the Jay was and cuz it was hitting net all net. A lot of your Jays was hitting all net and then you had the confidence to shoot the like you said you had to you had to take them shots. But once you got to um Miami I just feel like the floor was so much space with B shooting the three. Yeah. you have more shooters around just like why settle when like when we played y'all I'm like yeah he can I don't want him to get give him this midi but like there's no way I could just stop this man what's you know what I'm saying get to that cupum you know so I understand it's a mental that mental part of like all right what do I do especially when you got so much responsibility as scorers as initiators it's it's tough to figure out exactly you know how you going to approach it sometimes but that that that goes to both of you being about efficiency Right. You don't feel good if you have a high volume night and didn't make shots. That's why you guys prepare the way you prepare. Take care.
But I mean there there's a stat here. 2021-22 we were together. 58% from 3 to 10 feet. 58% from 10 to 16 feet. 16 feet to the three-point line. 71%. Unless the Googles are wrong. Crazy. 71% from 16 to three. Like that's I mean that's insane. I know. I didn't even realize. But 10 to 16 at the That's not That's not in an empty gym. Right. Right. Right. Right. Like that that's a lot of homework. It's it's a few guys in our league. That's a few guys. Not a lot. It's a few guys in our league that you believe every time they shoot the ball is going, right? And and Katie is one of those guys. That's a lot of pressure, boy. No, it is. It is. It is. It's It's Listen, like when you shoot the ball, when Steph shoot the ball, Steph get a look, you just you don't think it's going you don't think he's going to miss. I think Shay is at that point, too. Shay's at that point, too. Especially in the midies, like every time he shoot, I don't think it's going. Yeah, especially he's [ __ ] his rhythm right now. So good. Quietly in the mid-range. I think Kawhi's like that. I was about to say Kawhi like that, too. Kawhi's like that for sure. Kawhai's like that, too. For sure. I don't care if he missed 10 in a row. He every shot, next one's Yeah. Especially in that mid-range area. Even even his three his threes is I think his mid-range is above his threes but he's still a good shooter too. Yeah. Yeah. But that mid-range area I mean it's certain guys that raise up and get to their spot. You know exactly that they planned on doing that. Shay one of those guys in today's league. I even like um throughout the play. I even like what Julius Randle did from the mid-range this playoffs. You know best I've seen him play. That's the best I see him shoot the ball. Confidence he has. So I think the the mid-range game is coming back for So that's a big old big old conversation right there, you know, because analytics, all these analytic departments right now is saying layups and threes, free throws, layups, and threes, but we're watching the MVP of our league right now pretty much dominating through the mid-range, dominating, you know, so you know, and in the postseason where the game changes, physicality ramps up, you're allowed to bump and grab and hold a little bit more, you know, like ultimately it's like get to the spot, get to your spot and get a bucket, you you know, you don't have time to be thinking about, okay, well, if I don't shoot this three, you know, the analytic department coming downstairs the next day saying, okay, well, we took too many twos. Like, this is we or die, you know? Again, I and and I understand the balance between having to get up a lot of threes, but I believe you can't tell you Luca or Austin Reeves, don't play your game and take those shots in the mid-range or just just be you. Certain guys though, for sure. You know what I'm saying? Who need to rely on the system of the team who need who can't create on their own who can't create those shots on their own. They need to shoot more threes. So, I remember we was in a game against Cleveland and George's knee and he like to talk a lot of I love Georgia, but he he talked a lot of and he telling me like I hit a couple mid-ranges in a row. We like 15 like you need to shoot more threes. I said, "No, these dudes around me need to shoot more threes. I need to play my game." You know what I'm saying? Because if I get into this paint and cuz y'all going to collapse on this mid-range and I kick out to one of them, I'm expecting them to shoot the three, not dribble into a mid-range, like that don't make no sense. But the best players on the team, you can't turn them into You're exactly right. So it we did a whole episode on this that the mid-range has never been more important. It's just has to come from the right dudes, right? You the court is spaced now by the role players. Exactly. What do you think they're trying to take away layup? So the star has to be able to make mid-range shots or else the team's not going to be able to score in a playoff situation. They have to be able to loosen the defense takes with there. So I think the analytics community would agree with that too. It's really just we don't want players X Y and Z taking I mean because the mid-range I believe is if you can't find a good shot, we should look for the good shots early, the threes. Attack the paint. Attack the paint. Try to get layups. Try to get threes. But when it's 5 to 6 seconds on a clock, get a ball to the best player and if he shoot a mid-range at that point, then he shoot a mid-range. But we not going to waste the clock trying to look for a three two seconds on the clock and we giving it to No Dorian Finny Smith with two seconds on the clock to make a three. That's not that's not what we or or Royce O'Neal. That's not I mean they can hit it for sure, but that's not sustainable offense for us going forward. Oops.
So, another thing what you're also saying is like you pass up a good mid-range shot to get a worse Exactly. shot, right? So, there's a balance there to be exactly. So, I want to I want to touch on the topic because, you know, you've been in in a lot of different situations. Like, you come into the league, you know, like you said, when you was in Seattle early on and then with, you know, your early days, you said, I was just shooting a bunch of catch and shoot two uh catch and shoot threes. You know, that was my game. That's what I was comfortable with. The league was a little bit more physical. A lot of twos. Yeah. A lot of twos, running floppy action, things of that nature. And obviously you grew into your own, you know, in OKC days, you know, you start to, you know, this is how I'm going to make my mark, you know, MVP of the league, you doing your things, you know, how was the transition though when you went to Golden State to now playing in their, you know, split game action, you know, let's get the ball moving, you still having the freedom to do what the hell you do, but was it how much of a, you know, adjustment was it for you?
It was pretty easy because up until let's say James got traded for so 2013 to 2016. I feel like those were the only years I was playing like point forward in my whole life. Rest of the time I'm playing off my teammates. I might mix up a little get off the rebound and push and make a play. But for the most part I've been playing off my teammates up until then, you know, to that whole time period. So it was easy for me to come off a pin down. It's hard for me to have to dribble through three or four guys and pull up over two dudes with a fade away. Like I want, like you said, we want to be efficient playing off your teammate. That's the easiest way to be efficient. I was getting more back door cuts, more transition layups on top of the ISOs, on top of the catch and shoot threes. So, my game was way more well-rounded in scoring and it was easier and I way more efficient that way. But I always knew how to play with my teammates, play off my teammates. And the art of scoring is getting the easy points. I always knew that, especially in transition.
It's interesting you think about that uh Harden trade. You know, it was kind of a decision of the salary cap since Serge kind of a stretch four, five, James Harden, and James goes on to be one of the best players of all time. Yeah. Um how do you feel looking back? Like I know it's easy now to be like, well, yeah, we we lost James Harden. It's a different era. I mean, I think after a team that I think we over I think we exceeded expectations with that team and and and when you reach the finals and you go through a run like that so quick, I don't think a GM or owner was ready for that, you know. So, you expecting a team that's 22 23 to, you know, so you sped up the timeline. You sped up the timeline all of us, you know, each indiv individual player. Serge, you didn't know like he came out of nowhere. He came out here being the best shot blocker in the league. I'm averaging 30 at 20 21 years old. Russell is 22 years old as a all-star. James sixman at 20. Like so we exceeded the timeline. So they wasn't ready for that. And I don't believe that's just my theory. I don't know exactly what Sam was thinking or the owner. But my theory is I don't think they were ready exactly for us to be contenders every year. Right. So since then, since we reached the finals, you supposed to upgrade and finetune and make changes around instead of you can't just pull the one of the key figures of your team, you know, off the team and expect us to continue continue what we was doing. So I I just think they were kind of shocked at how fast we how good we got so fast. And you know, sometimes you get confused. And then on top of that, Sam Pressie was probably what 30 something years old. was young. Everybody was young trying to figure stuff out, trying to understand what this landscape was. It was just Yeah, it was just But it was it was Yeah, it was too fast. It was just We were ahead of our time. Everything happened too quickly. And um Yeah, cuz you think about it like you went from like coming league being like, I can't do anything. I'm just going to jump rise up and shoot to second in MVP voting at 21. Come on, man. First team on NBA at 21. Like uh doing things at 20 2021. Not just me, but everybody on our team on small different skills. Sure. Um, even our coaches. He was Scott Brooks. That was his first, he was the coach of the year, you know what I'm saying? So, everybody was doing things. I didn't And Scott was our interim, so I didn't, you know, probably didn't think that Scott was going to be there that long after being the interim, you know? So, we all exceeded expectations and um, you need a lot, you know, you got to spend money if you want to if you want to be in contention every year. I don't think they was ready for that just yet. So, but that prepared them for what they got now.
I was just going to say, right, he's getting a chance to run it back. He's got this incredible plan. He's been obviously one of the top GMs in the league for a while, but he's got this war chest, too. And people, I think, are like, you hear it around the deadline. People like, just make a big trade. And he's like, man, here's my I'd like to get your thoughts on this. Uh, OKC wins this year. It's a problem for the league. Yeah, it is. It's a problem for the league. Those guys are all young dudes. Like there's few teams that would have to make big upgrades to compete on a year-to-year basis with this team for the next four, five, six, seven, eight years. Yeah. The only OKC you got to worry about is the the cap. Are they going the second apron? Are they going to go into the apron and all that stuff? True. But even with that, they have so many picks. They can try to use that versatility to stay under the second apron and still be just got a lot of, right? I mean, but it comes down to two two guys like for real. I mean, three guys. The rest of these dudes, they can be interchangeable, you know? Like Shay's going to be he going to be that guy for the rest of his career. What is Jayla Williams and Chat going to be? You know what I'm saying? Of course they playing great right now, but those three guys got to keep I mean, Shay's already at that level, but those two guys got to keep getting better. I mean, that's just the the facts of it will just be more consistent, right? And I think I think they will, but that's really what it is for them. I mean, the c the salary c I think they'll pay for sure. Yeah. They know they do. Yeah. They they know they got a great team and something special ahead of them. But more than anything, those two guys got to keep stepping up and become perennial allstars. Doubt no doubt allstars every year without the the benefit of having a good team, right? The 70 win team gets the allars, right? You just got to be allstar flat out because you're better than everybody. Yeah. And also to the last thing too, I mean, yeah, they're going to be great for years to come. But also too, like, you know, the the now you go from, you know, doing the hunting to now being the hunted as well if they take if they win at all. It's a different dynamic that as well. I mean, we've both been there. Understanding like, you know, once you win it, you know, because you've been trying to get there. So, you know, everything is geared to we want to be the next champion. We want to be the next champion. And then when you get there now everybody else is all 29 teams is now like how do we dethrone them? So it's a different mindset as well and to see let's see how they if they was to win it you know don't want to you know count I completely agree but on the flip side they give away games currently like they have a great chance to win they've given away games they won't give away in the future I don't think.
No I I I think they going to continue to hunt everybody. I mean that's what they identity has been. Yeah, you think that's their landscape. That's what they identity since. You know what I'm saying? This has been cultivating since Shay got traded there for PG. All them dudes been there. Dor, I mean, Jaylen W came a couple years after that, but he been there. You know what I'm saying? So, those guys got a solid core of dudes and they foundation comes from we coming after y'all. So, you know, and I like the coach's mentality. He don't say he don't he be over there chilling. He don't say nothing. No, he just he be over there chilling. Stoic individual. I like I just think they got a a beautiful thing going and I think that what we created early on in OKC has just prepared everybody in OKC for what this is like. You know what I'm saying? We've all learned from that situation. Second time around. Yeah. It's just and it's been it's been nine 10 years almost. So they've been through different iterations of the Thunder. Melo CH PG then you got CP, you know. So they've been through different iterations with great players. So and they understand developing a great player from a 19-year-old until being draft draft trading form developing develop. So they done been through everything being a even though we were the Seattle Sonics, we were expansion franchise. So you know you just they understand everything from building up from the ground up to where they are now. So I I mean we all could see this coming this team. Yeah, amazing squad.
[Music] We had a talk recently about uh where the game's going a little bit. I'd love to hear your perspective, but the finals to me is a little bit of a a look into possibilities. OKC defensively, you know, pack the paint team, long athletes, keep you out of the rim, flying back out at shooters with athleticism, switchable players. You know, on the other hand, you have Indiana who plays like this beautiful chaos where from the free throw line up, there's there's blur screens, there's pitches, guard to guard pitches, there's flares while an action is going 21 on this side, flare on that side, all this kind of madness. You know, we we've become accustomed to trying to keep the floor space. They're flying guys in and out to try to move the help. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about where you think the game's going from a profile of player, but also like strategically beside both sides of the ball.
Yeah, I think strategically as a team we've come into a organized random basketball. I always say Jazz play off each other on both ends cuz you look at OKC that's right on their defense. I watched Shay or let's say let's say Jaylen Williams get beat off the dribble and then hit Lou Dort in the corner. He's just you know in regular help but if he get beat off that dribble he coming over to take that drive and then here come Jayla Williams to straight corner. So they do that all around the court and then they on top of that they got they got good one-on-one defense but they are in tandem. Yeah. Regardless without even being a scheme it's just natural and random at that end reading each other. Exactly. Not every team can do it. No. It's hard to do that. Which is the same thing that Indie is doing offensively. Exactly. Right. And that's that's how I feel the game is flowing because Indie will I haven't all I've seen is 77 from them and then like you said quick action 21 get it back slip out big set of screen but when it's when it's bringing out the net inbounding the ball walking it up all I really seen from them is 77 and then driving kick pick and pop getting to the blender just getting to the blender early so I think that's where the league is going Whereas like you're not about to run three pin down like this guy not about to run from the wing under three pin downs underneath the right baseline while nobody else moving and you go like the defense not let that anyway not letting you do that. It's got to be random. It has to be practice though every day. That random. That's what fans I don't think understand. Why aren't they running anything? Well, if they run they're switching everything. You're back to ice. Exactly. Right. Okay. So, how do they know what to do? Why would they do it 5000 every day? talk through it, see on the film. What did you dec What was your decision here? Yeah, I think it's it's it's great coaching, too. Like, you know, Rick knows his personnel. His personnel, how his team is built is not isolation guys that can beat you off the bounce every possession or it's not going to be PPR is going to be so low. You know, he knows that if we can get one trigger, which is now creates the blender, now that works for our team, right? You know, it's not going to be run a 77. Okay, now they didn't switched. Okay, everybody get flat. Let me back up, back up, back up, and then try to go ISO. Yeah, we know Reese Tyrese can can can beat the five off the dribble. We know that Benedict Mat, we know he can do it from time to time, but for their team, for them for their PPR to be 120 like we've been seeing, it's not going to be a steady diet of isolation no matter which no matter which action they run. So, like you saying, the blur screens, the touch screens, the flare screens on the opposite side, the pitch, you know, we're running the DHO slip out, you know, the short rolls to the pops of Miles Turner. Like they they're And it's it is so not random, right? Everyone thinks it's practice. It's practice, but it's just like it's it's hard to organize organized chaos. It's not it's not scripted in the game, but in practice, like you could tell that they on the same page. It's almost like nonverbal. And you see and and you know being in the finals a lot of times you not talking a lot to your teammates. You know what you're supposed to be doing. You out there really focused on being the best that you can and being at your highest level. These guys don't feel like they having communic, you know, dialogue obviously, but they not walking each other through everything. They just reading off of, you know, reading react off of one another. And that's from good coaching, good practicing, holding each other accountable throughout the season, watching film. Like all that stuff matters that the outside world, you know, does doesn't understand. They just like, well, what are they doing? It's chaos. Katie and and Book and I just roll the balls out. Y'all just go hoop or Luca and I supposed to just beat everybody cuz y'all just got that talent. It's like this is you got to cultivate a lot of stuff from day one of training camp on who you want to be. And you can tell that these both of these teams been doing that for two, three years. Yeah, for sure.
I was going to say a big underrated part of their offensive identity is they they change ends so quick they create mismatches off the change ends. Fact even on a make. Exactly. They Seakum's down on a guard. Oh, go to the post. Oh, we got the center up on on Harley or bring him into the action. What I also like is like if Alli gets the center, they don't always spread. They keep playing. Next guy comes in, they're not afraid. They want you to make mistakes. They wanted to keep moving because I think it it slows them down and now they're not playing their game if they say get spread. Let me ice up. You always can go, but we're not going to hold the game up. And I mean, just to piggy back what you just said, Steve, like, you know, you get the five switched on to, you know, how knows he can beat him. You know, he knows he has the advantage, I would say, you know, but how many times is the five guarding the ball when a pick and roll happens? Exactly. He don't know how to look over that pick and roll. He doesn't know what's going on. You you you run past him, touch him on the hip, he's like, "What the hell's going on?" They [ __ ] up the confusion. And we saw that in the Knicks series. We saw a lot, but Cat, they was doing that and Cat would just back up and nobody's on the ball and shooting the three. And to add to it, they'll bring even the the three in like, you know, it might be Anobi, a great defender, but he's got Cat, so he they might just blur screen with he's like, "Well, I gotta help." Right. Right. Right. And then N Smith standing wide over wide open because they're just creating confusion. They're going to if you are not aware on the defensive side of the ball, they're going to attack you from the first possession all the way to the last. And I think that's the new brand of ball. It's like who is the weak guy out here. And it's not just the guy that can't guard one-on-one no more. It's like if you can't guard a pick and roll, if you don't know how to guard a pin down, we're attacking every single part of your horrible low man. Yeah, exactly. You know, we're going to run pick and rolls opposite of you, so you be the tag guy, but we know you ain't going to tag everything. The league is about exposing now. Yeah. And but I would also add to it like we were exposing the guy on the ball. Now I think these teams are starting to expose the help by moving the help. We'll cut and replace. We'll blur screen. We'll flare on the weak side. So the help's moving instead of the help. We like on offensively we've liked for a period of time here just to know where the guys are. Just stay space be your spot. Now they're getting smarter. They're getting better at scheming. They're in the gaps. They're rotating. They're reading off each other. So then when you start moving around, whose help is that? Exactly. Right. So, I think that's the era we're starting to get into offensively.
Would you say defenses have gotten better, more creative? No, not in a sense because I I don't want to say more creative because it's a switch league now. Everyone wants to switch. Um, and to be honest, the only way that you can just like switch is you have to you have to have the personnel to do it, you know? But I think the creativity is happening like you know and and New York did a good job of this like
Sometimes when Jaylen Brunson was getting switched off on Seakum, they were doing a great job of kicking him out. Yeah. You know, yeah. On the on the post. I think that's been communicated a lot better, like kicking a small guy out, telling him to go weak side corner or find somebody on the weak side. Um, because there's not too many guys that can actually make the pass. Once the switch happens, he rolls him down and he can fire it weak side to get the shot. There's not many guys in our league that can make that. So, I think as far as the creativity in that, uh, range, um, has gotten better.
But defense has always boiled down to just like, you know, talking. Yeah. Right. You can make up a lot of, you know, by just talking through it, too. I would almost flip it. It's not the defense. Maybe defensive involved in offenses have challenged them more. Challenged them more these days. New solutions, playing fast, shooting the ball from farther out. Like, you know, you watch clips from 15, 20 years ago, like almost everybody's inside the three-point line. Everybody. Yeah. 15, 20 years ago.
I was in the league. I just about to say some, you know, about the '90s. Only one of us was in town with the '90s. That team, that '90s bled into the early 2000s. That was the same type. Probably one three-point shooter on every team, bro. By the way, if then, like, if that's why that's why Sacramento was so damn good. They had a lot early on. Ahead of their time. Yeah, they were ahead of their time. I mean, they bid was shooting a three. Stojakovic was shooting a three. Bobby Jackson come off the bench shooting a three. Vlad from time to time would pop. Brad Miller would pop. You know, C-Webb used to pop a little bit. That's that's that's what made them so damn dynamic because they were so far ahead of their time. And then they showed up and when when they showed up, it totally just changed the game. Well, Nelly too in Dallas playing that way. Y'all play fast. Like to play fast, but he also liked to play two or three minutes off the elbow because in the elbow, the weak side is in a bind, right? Like, and that's why we play delay. Now, the ball's, you know, a lot of five out, but on the elbow, if you're the weak side, he can still hit your guy. He always knew that pressure on you. So, if you want to come, that's a one pass. Wherever it's on the wing, that's it's got to be a swing, swing, or a skip. So, I think he used to like, like try to distort the defense like that.
But even those Suns teams, like we think about him now, played so fast and shot a bunch of threes. Not true. Not true. We, I can't remember what year we beat the Spurs in San Antonio to tie the series 2-2. I think it might have been the game Robert Horry body checked me. The thing I think if it was that game, we we made five threes. Five. And we're supposed to be a run and gun team, right? Like we should have shot 35 threes, right? 40 threes. So we look back with tinted glasses, right? Like it's all it's a slow evolution. Now I feel like things are starting to change quickly. It's like the tech industry almost. So much information now, and it's all personnel too. But just like the tech industries, some people try it and they can't even get to there. They can't get to that capacity. They don't have the resources. They don't. You got to have the personnel in our league too. As much as it's a copycat league and as much we talk about three-point shooting, whatever the case may be, you still like, you're if you're a team shooting 28% from the three-point line throughout the season, that don't mean take more threes. Straight up. Straight up. Like, what are we doing? I mean, I mean, but that, I mean, that's the solution. That's what they tell. That's what they I get it. More threes. If we shooting 40, 28 threes on a on a on a game, that's not enough. No, it's not enough. Right. Oh, no. They ain't enough. You know what I'm saying? They get mad if you if you if you below 35, 40, man. Yeah. Yeah.
So, do you think the profile of players change? Like I'm been thinking, I'm like, I don't know if the 6'2 and under guard is is at a premium no more as a starter. Maybe as a backup. But you have to be, uh, you just talked about this the last N. It's gotten compressed. It has. Right. It's compressed. It's it's that like either Donovan Mitchell, Drew Holiday, 6'3, Lou Dor, or it's N. You got to be, you can't get picked on defense. That's the thing, cuz we playing such a pick and roll game that they will really literally, if you can't guard, they will bring you up every play. Yeah. And if you're 6 foot, 6'1 and you're not a bulldog like a Davon Mitchell, yeah. Drew Holiday's. Mhm. On the defensive side, or you're not offensively flat out soant like Kyrie, where you can score on dudes seven feet easily and I iso, then I just can't see it. What do you think? Like, yeah, like, um, like for me, it's I'm interested. Like Darius Garland, like he's an amazing basketball player. I don't I think his value, like, I'm shocked. Like we don't we don't talk about him as like this amazing. Like, because the era, like if he played in any other era, I think he would have been like his value would be through the roof. Like he's that skilled, he's water bug, he's got every shot, he can playmake, but there's an era where it's like, okay, we also have to help that dude out defensively all the time. Yeah.
I mean, like that's an example for me, cuz he's such a good basketball player, right? I mean, it's just, yeah, he he is. And it's like, but the the defensive side of the ball is where, you know, people were attacking. If you want a chance to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers, you are going at Darius Garland most of the time on the defensive side. That's not saying that he going to get scored on every time, but sometimes he's just small. He's just he's 6'4 and 6'2 sometimes. And when you got your nowadays is def I mean offenses are giving the ball to their best player. I don't care if you're 6'9, 6'10. If you out on that perimeter up there, bring up Darius Garland. And if you don't have that built in, but Cleveland did a good job of building in that help around. But if you don't have that around those th those guards at that size, it's going to be tough. And cuz now five guys outside the three-point line. If you played 10, 15 years ago and beyond, six, you know, six out of 10 dudes are inside the three-point line. You got help right there. Right. That makes defense easier for everybody. It's harder for some of the best defenders to guard up with all of this space.
I heard you say on on with JJ, I think on a podcast, that it was harder to get 30 at the start of your career just because of spacing. It definitely, man. It was it. I mean, you got two dudes at the box. Bunch of power forwards in the league. Most of the time, the whole league running floppy. That's the go-to set. So, we got four guys or eight guys inside the three-point line and all they do was lift upper body up top. Not a game. They weren't working on their legs back then, man. It's all just pushing. Pushing and shoving, bro. It's all strong, man. Like Gold's Gym.
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When you think back to our time in Brooklyn, what do you think of?
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Tell them about the three-point line. You know, some people are saying take the corner three out. I don't think I like that. Would be I was just now you just what are we doing disrespecting the whole game about? So, you know, you when the when the three-point line curve, it just goes out of bounds and there's no and there's no three long twos and there's no and there's no three-point line at all. So you catch it in the corner, long two, it's just a super long two. You and the dunker. You can imagine analytics when we have big play defense where it'd be like three guys on the He forced the long two. He forced the long two. Nobody covers the long two right there. Destroy the game.
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