Angela Duckworth on Why Grit Is Not Enough

If you ask me, like, how many years were you lost, capital L lost- Uh-huh … in terms of what you were really going to be happy doing professionally, I would say 10. Like age 22 to 32 I was lost.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to The Context Window. Today's conversation is with Angela Duckworth. Angela is a psychology professor at Penn. She's a total legend in the research game. MacArthur Genius Award winner, author of the famed book Grit. If you're in the education field, you know Angela's work. She graduated from Harvard in 1992, won the Fay Prize for best senior thesis. She was on the fast track to success at a very young age. You look at her resume, and you think, "This woman checked all the boxes and knew everything she was gonna do right from the beginning." But as you'll hear, it's really not true. She spent, in her words, 10 years feeling capital L Lost and unhappy, trying out different careers. When she finally landed in her PhD program, she basically told her husband, "Don't let me quit again." And thank goodness she didn't because she has a lot to say about the success and happiness and heartache she's had along her journey. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. I'm eager to hear your feedback. You can email me at david@thecontextwindow.com. Enjoy the show.

Angela, thank you for being here.

David, I'm so excited to be here.

I miss Harvard.

Yeah, Harvard misses you, too.

All of Harvard misses me.

Yeah.

So speaking of Harvard, Angela-

Yeah … you came to Harvard as an undergraduate.

I did.

From Cherry Hill, New Jersey.

I did.

Yes, your dad was a chemist at DuPont.

Correct.

Yeah, and you've spoken at times about how he had very high expectations.

He had the highest-

Yes … expectations.

Yes.

Including going to Harvard.

Yes.

That was one of his expectations.

Yes.

So I was gonna ask you, did that prepare you for Harvard?

You know, my dad was so cheap that he wouldn't let me visit any schools before I got in. He was like, "Why would you wanna visit schools before you get in? Like, if you don't get in, that was a wasted trip." So after I got my admissions letter to Harvard, and you know, others, my dad said, "Okay, now you can visit two schools."

Did he tell you which two you had to visit?

Yeah, Yale and Harvard.

Really?

So, uh, and by the way, it was cheap because you go to Yale and then you can keep going, right?

Yes.

'Cause you know, from South Jersey to Yale, and then you just get back on the train.

Yeah.

So yeah, my, my dad was very excited for me to go to Harvard.

Yeah.

And, um, he was influential in that ultimate decision.

Some students have talked about Harvard as being a very high pressure, competitive environment. Do you think your childhood either prepared you or didn't prepare you for that? And did you experience that when you were here?

I think Harvard is different than when I-

Okay … went. So I graduated in '92.

Yes.

I think we have calculated that you are, like, a good decade younger than me, David, right?

If you say so.

Yeah.

Okay, there you go.

I, I say so.

Um, and back when I went here-

Yeah … late '80s, right? Graduating in 1992, I, I will say what it was like, and then of course-

Yeah … you can tell me whether-

Yeah … it's still like that. But I, it was very, like, Darwinian survival of the fittest, and I-

Okay … I think some of these practices remain in place, but like, on my first experience of Harvard, I applied to do public service.

Yeah.

So there are these, of course, like, I think still-

Yes … you know, pre-freshman week-

Yes … programs.

Yeah, pre-orientation programs. Freshman outdoor program.

Yep.

I wanted to do the freshman urban program.

Yes.

Do you know if that exists by the way?

It still exists.

Yes, it does.

Yeah.

So then I had to apply for it. I was like, oh, you apply to volunteer to, like-

Yeah … paint houses, uh, in an impoverished area in Boston.

Okay.

That's, I wrote an essay about why I-

Believe that I was capable of doing manual labor for a week, and why it was so important to me. And so my ex- first experience at Harvard was being rejected.

Mm.

And I continued to feel like, wow, what is this, like, comping pro-

Yeah … like, what does it mean to compete for everything-

Yes … and to be rejected all the time? So I, I had that experience extracurricularly, and then I was a bio concentrator-

Yeah … I guess I should say.

Neurobiology?

I was neurobio.

Okay.

Which was effectively being bio back then.

Okay.

It was like you could hardly… You know, there wasn't a lot of daylight between neur- neurobio and bio. So I'm in these, like, huge pre-med classes-

Yeah … uh, and you know, it was not a relaxed vibe. I, I, y- you know, I'm sure it was partly me, but did my father's, um, parenting style prepare me? I mean, my dad, uh, who's now passed, uh, was brutally honest.

Yeah.

And so he would often tell me, like, "You're no genius."

Yeah.

Uh, and, uh-

Of course, he was later proven wrong.

Of course, later I did say- "Oh, by the way, like technically, um, just yeah, the MacArthur was-"

Because you won the MacArthur Genius Award, just-

It was, yeah. You don't wanna say it out loud, but I'll say it.

It was-

Yeah.

I went to school in Boston.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, I, I, I was able to tell my dad, like it was, uh, kinda funny, um-

Yeah … at that point.

Um-

Funny to whom?

To him or to you or to the-

I think to me.

Okay.

I thought it was funny. I think he may have been amused.

Um-

Yeah … he was getting on in his years by then. But yeah, Harvard was hard. I think, I think Harvard may have changed though, culturally. I wonder, do you think that's true?

It's a good question. So I do think it's changed in some ways and, and other ways not. So I think we still attract highly competitive students from all around the world. And so the comping process that you mentioned-

Yeah where students apply for extracurriculars and often to student clubs. So it's, it's kind of student-on-student crime, if you like. It's like they are-

Yes … re-recreating elements of the admissions process that are familiar to them-

Yeah, Lord of the Flies-

Yeah … right here. And so that still exists. Yeah. I do think we've done more to create a, a culture where students feel like they don't have to only do that. So we've got … And, and then there was survey data at Harvard to suggest that students feel a greater sense of belonging than they did in the past and things like that.

Oh.

So I, so I do think we've-

Okay, there you go.

Yeah.

So, so it has changed.

Yeah, so I thi- I think we've tried on the, um, university side and the administrative side to, to create a bunch of different ways that students can distinguish themselves and build community. And look, I am not the person who thinks like everybody should have a trophy-

Yeah … and like, you know, oh, my gosh, you know, consequences. You know, like, and look, we live in a world where there are scarce resources-

Yeah … and there are a limited number of spots, and so I get it. It's just … Okay, let me share, you know-

Uh-

candidly-

Okay … like another more recent Harvard experience. So I had my 25th reunion-

Yeah … um, almost 10 years ago. I remember getting the material, like, "It's your 25th reunion. It's gonna be amazing to see your former classmates. You can apply," I was like, "I am gonna laugh-

… out loud. "You can apply to be featured as like the fill in the blank, like most prominent member of the class of 1992." And I, I think I may have read this letter out loud at the dinner table. I'm like, "So Harvard."

And then you set it on fire?

It was just … Yeah, I should have.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, but I thought it was just, you know, humorous. I do think it is part of Harvard culture-

Yeah … for better or for worse. And, you know.

Sometimes better, sometimes worse.

And I think it, you're right, you know, we, we can be more conscientious about that. And, and-

Yeah.

Like, do we really need like the most prominent person-

Yeah … in the class of 1992-

Yeah … who has to apply and beat out all of her-

Yeah … you know, and, and-

But-

Yeah.

Yeah … Angel, having said all that, you-

I didn't apply, by the way.

No.

But I wouldn't have won.

Well-

'Cause the person who won … You know who should win, in my class, aside from Supreme Court justices?

Okay

Which … This is not something I choose, just so you know, but I'm, I'm interested in your feedback.

Who should win?

Yeah, just, uh, the, the person who wrote Bridgerton.

Okay.

Do you know what Bridgerton is?

I mean, I know what it is, but I've never watched it, so.

It's so good.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right. You should start with season one-

Right … and then watch Queen Charlotte. But anyway-

Yes … uh, yeah, I mean, she should win.

Okay.

But so Angela, you, on the one hand, deplore the competitiveness of, of Harvard and the environment, but on the other hand, you succeeded in that competition. You won. The Radcliffe Fay Prize given-

Oh … to the top undergraduate thesis.

What was your thesis about?

I mean, I think, and you are, uh, more knowledgeable than I am, I thought it was a more kind of like holistic sort of like, "Hey, good on you," like great job. Because when I was an undergraduate, it is true that I did research-

Mm-hmm … and I did it on Alzheimer's disease.

Um, you will note that I am not a world leader in Alzheimer's research.

Mm-hmm.

But at the time, when I was a Harvard undergraduate, I would like go across the river to the medical school-

Yeah and I was studying these little protein, uh, malformations, uh, that it turned out, drum roll please, had nothing to do with Alzheimer's diseases.

Like, maybe spectrin isoforms have to do with Al-

No.

Okay, so-

Okay … um, that's part of science, right? Like null findings.

Yes.

Um, so it's true that I did that, but even when I was here, my most meaningful times were not in the research lab, not in the lecture hall.

Yeah.

They were, uh, in Cambridge. So what I spent literally more hours doing than the collective time in the lab or in the lecture hall was basically being in Cambridge public schools.

Yeah.

So I was like a big sister, and then I was a tutor, and then like-

You did this with the Phillips Brooks House?

I did it-

Or-

for the rival.

I did it for Hand.

Okay.

Which I think still exists, right?

Okay.

Yeah

The Harvard Hand program.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Right, like the houses each matched to one of the thir-

Okay … conveniently 13 neighborhoods, 13 houses. So that is what I spent all of my time doing. I was like hardly at Harvard. I was like always in East Cambridge.

And you wrote a prize-winning thesis in your spare time?

I wrote a thesis-

… on null find- on null findings, by the way.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, yeah, I mean, I also will say that I didn't sleep a lot.

So-

Okay … uh, I found my… I guess, I guess it's possible to ask for your admissions, like, uh, file, right? Like there's like, like-

Yeah.

I'm not gonna do that.

Don't worry.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, well, you should.

Okay.

Wait, you didn't do it?

No.

You should 100% do it.

Okay.

Like-

You mean for you?

You can do it for-

Like ask for your file?

Well, you probably could, 'cause you're in a position of power and authority.

Yeah.

But, um-

I, I'll ask for your file … any Harvard alum can ask for their admissions file.

Oh, I see.

Okay.

I hope this doesn't inundate Harvard admissions, because they do create all this friction. They're like, "Now click here."

I see.

"Now wait for your email. Now click here."

Yeah.

So they're using a lot of, um, you know, speed bumps. But if you are persistent, if you are gritty, you can get all the way to the end, and you can get emailed a PDF of your own application, which of course most people have, right?

Right.

Right.

But I didn't have it.

But not like the ratings of it or anything.

Exactly.

Just, yeah. And there's these like little scrawling… And also I got to see what my guidance counselor thought of me, which was, you know, not much.

Um, so I saw my admissions file, and it was- It can't possibly be true. I think she was like, "She's okay." I mean, really it was not … These are not top. I was like, "How did I get in here?" My guidance counselor was like, "Meh."

Uh, maybe not meh. Maybe not mid.

Okay.

But like somewhere like above that and under extraordinary. But I read my essay.

Yeah.

I was like, "Oh, so interesting." So my essay to get into this place was about how I hardly slept. That guy thought it was very clever, 'cause I was like, "It's kind of like living longer," 'cause like when you're asleep you're dead.

Yeah.

Yeah

But it's true that when I was at Harvard I didn't sleep a lot. So I, I, I did do research, and I did a lot of public service.

So you-

I didn't do a lot of sleeping.

So you were pre-med when you came to Harvard.

I was pre-med.

Yeah.

You … My father.

Yes.

So your father-

We already talked about my father.

So-

So yes … okay, so your father was a chemist, kid go to Harvard, wins the thesis prize, neurobiology, wants to go pre-med. It was all laid out for you. It was like-

What ha- what- … happening just like he wanted.

And then what happened?

So all that time that I was spending-

Yeah … you know, and I'm not a saint, but I really like kids, and I think I discovered that while I was at Harvard.

Yeah.

I was like, "Oh my gosh," like, "kids are great." And when my father found out that instead of going to medical school I was going to stay in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and open a summer school-

Yeah for-

Summer Bridge, right?

Summer Bridge.

Yes.

Summer Bridge.

Yes.

You were like-

I did my homework … this is like, you're like your stalker or something.

I'm like, oh my God.

Friendly.

You've been following me.

A friendly.

In a positive way.

The friendliest possible version of that, yes.

In the best possible light.

Yeah.

So I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to medical school." I didn't take the MCAT. I am gonna stay in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I'm gonna open a summer school for, you know, kids from low-income families so that they can-

Yeah … you know, have academic enrichment.

Yeah.

My father literally stopped speaking to me for six months. I mean, when he started speaking to me again, he was like, "Why do you wanna help poor kids?" And I was like, "Well, that's interesting language, Dad," but like how about kids?

Uh-huh.

Like, how about kids?

So-

So he thought this was your rebellious period … he was not happy.

He was … Yes, and I was, I was rebellious, I think. I was like, you know … I mean, my dad was a little overbearing, but like every time-

Yeah … he said something, I was like, "That's not true." But, you know, you didn't …

Angela, you did more than just go Help kids. I mean, you started a program called Summer Bridge. By the way, it still exists.

Yes, I know.

I was gonna ask you about that. It is so cool. It still exists. It's now Break Through Boston, Greater Boston.

Yes, rebranded.

Okay, so many years later now, it still exists.

Many years later. More than 30.

Okay, so tell me about that. That was quite entrepreneurial. You didn't just go teach. Like, you started a program that still exists today. You raised money for it, right?

You-

Okay, so, okay. So, so that it doesn't sound like e- everything was great, let me just give you the, the, like, let me spill the tea, as the-

Okay … kids say, right?

Like-

Okay.

Spill the tea … when I was at Harvard, I was very unhappy, right? I was very accomplished. I was very energetic.

Yeah.

But I really have to say, like, I wasn't happy.

Hmm.

And, um, I do think I found a lot of gratification in doing these things, but I just wanna say in terms of like, wow, then you did this, and then you won that, like I was lonely a lot. Like, when you do all these things-

Yeah … and you're not hanging out with your roommates, or you're not, um, just, like, goofing off and spending time.

Okay, so I just want young people to take the lesson maybe that, you know, winning the Heisman Prize-

Yeah … or not, um-

Well, you're, you're saying you were, you were accomplishing all the things that you thought you should, but you were not feeling fulfilled by that. I mean, I feel like when you are 18, 19, 20, 21, 20, you want to, uh, be doing all the things that you want to do.

Yeah.

And you're, like, at the beginning of your life, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I think one of the things I bungled was that there's something else you want when you're 18, 19, 20. Like, you want a best friend.

Yeah.

Like, you want friendships that will last a lifetime.

Yeah.

You want to fall in love.

Like, you want … And I think that I I mean, I do have friends, right?

Yeah.

Uh, who-

You fixed that eventually … I mean-

Yeah … you know, but I look back on those years and I think, like, yeah, I'm really happy what I accomplished, and I'm really happy that Breakthrough, you know, l- like, lasted. And I, I, and I'm very, um, I guess I'll say proud. I'm like-

Yeah … awesome, like, that nonprofit still exists. Like-

Yeah, you should be proud … kids should have summer school.

Yeah.

Like, hello? Like, but I also, you know, having had a daughter who went here, Amanda, um, more recently, I saw her spend time in ways that I didn't, right? It's like you don't put on your resume-

Yeah … that when your roommate is crying, and you have an exam the next day, and you just talk to your roommate all night.

Yeah.

And I would never have done that when I was an undergraduate. I, I think that was a mistake. Like, when I came back to reunion, I saw, uh, you know, reunion is something I feel like undergraduates should just, like, go and, and go work the reunion because you can see the future. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You're like, "Oh, that's me in 25 years." And what I saw when I came back to my 25th reunion was these tables of, of people who were, like, really good friends, and there was a, like, a bond there. And yes, I have a few friends who went to Harvard in the class of '92.

Yeah.

And yes, I'm gonna see them this summer, so I wasn't, like, completely friendless. I have a lot of ex-boyfriends, I will tell you that. I was like, "Wow, I dated you too?" I was like, "What?" I was like, "Who are you?"

Did you reveal to them that you didn't remember that?

You're like, " Wait, I dated you?"

Oh, totally.

That's a little-

I was like, "Wait, what is your name?" I was like, "Do you not remember?"

Okay.

I was like, "No, no memory."

Um, so it's not that I had no relationships, but, but, but I, I think I learned this, um, in some ways, first of all, too late.

Yeah.

'Cause, like, when you graduate, you graduate, and you're like-

Yeah … you don't get to go… Y- there's no do-over.

Um, I learned it in part 'cause I'm a college professor now.

Yeah.

So I teach at, uh, at Wharton and at Penn, and I say to my students, like, "I know you're under a lot of pressure, in so many ways that I cannot appreciate."

Yeah.

"And I know you don't have enough time. You really literally don't have enough time. But if there's one mistake that I made that I hope you don't make, it's that you will prioritize all these things that feel like the most important thing in the world, and more important than," yeah, like, spending a kind of useless six hours with your roommate or, you know, like, goofing off.

I t- I just feel like I, I, you know, was a little bit, um, blind, I guess, to, like, the really important things in life.

When, when you give that advice, do you think they listen?

I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. I hope so. I, I, I, I do say to them, I was like, "I want you to imagine your reunion."

Yeah.

I'm like you know, and you know one of the, the best things about the reunion, everybody that, that insecurity, that comping, that sort of like am I good enough? Like you know what? Actually, it was incredibly relaxed. I don't know how you feel about like going to reunions-

Yeah … but like I feel like people had grown up. And like you know what? I don't care what you won, and guess what? You don't care what I won.

Yeah.

Like let's just talk about-

Yeah … whatever.

Yeah.

Menopause, you know?

Like just-

It-

Like it was so much more real.

Did you give this advice to Amanda when she came to Harvard? And did she listen to-

I did … did she listen?

I did. I think that she probably, uh, had that instinct before. Her mother was like, "You know, don't get like super sucked into like a race, you know, at every moment," right?

Yeah.

There are 168 hours in the week. Don't make all 168 of them a race to get ahead. And I have to say, the most, you know, gratifying thing to me about watching her, you know, graduate, um, uh, was, was that, you know, she clearly had these friendships-

Yeah … and she had invested in them. And they don't go on her resume, but they're more important than her resume.

Yeah.

I wanna talk about your journey to becoming a professor.

Yeah.

Okay, so you started Summer Bridge.

Yes.

And you ran it for two years.

Yep.

And then you-

By which time my father started speaking to me again.

Yeah, that's right.

So you-

So it was great … your relationship was back on track-

It was awesome … for now.

Yeah.

And then I presume he was happy because you went to Oxford on a Marshall Scholarship.

He was so happy.

Yeah.

He was like, "Thank God."

Yeah.

He's like, "She's at least a Marshall."

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you came back, and you went to go work at McKinsey, right?

Yes.

So, so you kind of … You went back to the well-trodden Harvard grad student path of like, "I'm gonna go work at a management consulting firm after getting a Marshall Scholarship," so he's very happy.

Yes.

And so that's another opportunity you had to get onto the, get on track.

Yeah.

But you-

Yeah … jumped off the track.

It didn't quite, you know, get back onto the pre-med-

Yeah … track, right?

How long did you work at McKinsey?

I still went on a prestige track.

Um, well, I'll say, you know, thinking that, you know, maybe listening to this conversation are, you know, some young people who are like, "I would love a Rhodes," you know?

Yeah.

"I would love a Marshall."

Um, and I think those are wonderful things to have, but I will also say that when you go to these, um, you know, wonderful opportunities-

Yeah … I think sometimes it's like a great fairy tale in theory, but one of the things that happens when you're at Oxford is there is this kind of like stasis. It's sort of like you're removed from reality for two years, and you're in this place that looks like it came out of a Disney movie.

Yeah.

And you're hanging out, uh, but maybe not necessarily, like, figuring out what you wanna do. When I was at the end of my time at Oxford, I, um… And by the way, I got in on this fellowship under the pretense, sincere at the time-

Yeah that I was gonna, like, go to Oxford, uh, and then come back to the United States and eventually become the US Secretary of Education.

Okay.

It was like, there was a blank. It was like, "What is your career?" You know, I was like, "US Secretary of Education."

Um, I now recognize, by the way, I know you're, um, an expert in public policy to like… There are few people who would be worse at the job of being the US Secretary of Education.

No, I don't agree with that.

Like-

No.

I mean, well, the-

Well, actually, you, you could you could have thoughts about…

Yeah, so I might do an okay job, but I can-

Yeah … I can name 1,000 people who would be better than me.

Um-

I mean, that's gonna be true of lots of jobs, right?

Maybe.

I know so little about politics, David. I'm, like, hopeless. I'm like, "Who? What?"

The stand- the standard- "How many Supreme Court justices?"

… the standard is not, the standard is not would you be the best at the job. The standard is would you do a good job in it-

Shouldn't the standard be-

… relative to else would do wait, well, no, no, no.

Oh, relative to who else would do it.

Relative to who else would do it, that's the key.

No, yeah, but relative to who else would do it, I would do a worse job than other people who are willing to do it.

Well, then I don't agree.

But anyway.

Okay.

But continue.

Okay.

All right. So you, you were…

Yeah.

So, so anyway, I was, I went to McKinsey because I, you know, in that two years di- you know, I don't wanna say got lost, but I w- I was like, "Oh, okay, now I think I wanna do stuff in education." I do think at Oxford I probably figured out maybe taking political science classes that I was just like, "Oh, wait, I should definitely not be in any position of authority in government," 'cause, you know, you go to Oxford-

Yeah you do politics, philosophy, and economics is like ordering a Big Mac at McDonald's.

Yeah.

It's like you go to Oxford, you order that, 'cause that's a very famous program. That's what you're supposed to do, yeah. And it was so hard for me. I was like, "Oh my God, this is so much harder than organic chemistry, and physics, and math." So I just switched into neuroscience, and it was, like, to b- to be easy. I was like, "No, I'm switching to neuroscience." So my eventual degree from Oxford was in, uh, neuro- master's in neuroscience. I went to McKinsey because I missed the school year. So I was like, "I do wanna k- do education, but maybe not policy."

Oh, so you knew, you knew even then you wanted to teach.

I feel like if you wanna do anything in education, it's like-

Yeah … how could you not be in education? So I knew I wanted to teach even if I didn't think I was gonna be a classroom teacher forever, but you graduated from that program-

Yeah … in, like, October, which is just too late.

So wait, so when you-

So that's why I went to McKinsey … when you, when you took the Marshall Scholarship-

Yes … and went to Oxford, did you know you wanted to teach after that? Or did you discover that when you were there?

I think that when I was, um, that tender age of sort of, like, young 20s figuring things out, I think I probably had the sense that I needed time to figure things out. I think that is one of the reasons why people apply for such things.

Yes.

They're like, "I'll figure it out in beautiful Oxford."

Um, and I, I did sort of figure out. Like, I figured out not to become the Secretary of Education.

Yeah.

I was like, "Oh, I don't think I should be a policy person. I think I should not get a PhD in public policy." But I was still lost.

You know-

Yeah … really, David, if you ask me, like, how many years were you lost, capital L Lost-

Uh-huh … in terms of what you were really going to be happy doing professionally, I would say 10. Like, age 22 to 32, I was lost.

Yeah.

I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll go to McKinsey." It's like, "Oh, no, n- now I can be a teacher." Like, "Oh, I don't wanna be a teacher." Like, "Well, now I can help run this nonprofit." Like, okay, I don't wanna run a nonprofit. Like, "Well, maybe I'll go back to teaching." Like, I was very lost for y- you know, yeah, 10 years.

So that's interesting you say that, Angela. So when I look… You get to tell me if this is totally wrong. When I look at- 'Cause you went more straight through, I think.

No.

No, not really.

But I'll-

No?

Yeah.

Okay.

But this is not about me, this is about you.

Okay.

So, okay, so you took 10-

Well, it's not about me … 10, 10, 10 years between your bachelor's degree and when you started your PhD.

Starting my PhD.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that 10 years is the period you're talking about.

Yeah.

So when I look at what you did, you went to go, you started this, um-

Summer enrichment program … summer program.

Summer enrichment program.

Yes.

Yeah.

Academic enrichment program.

Yeah.

That's what, yeah.

Enrichment program, right?

Um, and you've, you've said a lot you've been very, you were very proud of that. And then you went to do the Marshall, and then you worked at McKinsey, and then went to go teach.

Yeah.

And then you became the COO of GreatSchools.net, and then you went to teach again.

I was briefly a chief-

Yeah … operating officer for a nonprofit.

Exactly.

Yes.

And then you went to get your PhD. So when I look at that, what I see is somebody who knows what kind of impact they wanna have, but is searching for a way to apply the skills that they learned to it in, in the right way.

Okay.

That's, that's what I see. You tell me if that's wrong.

Sure.

Yes.

And you know, when I am with undergraduates-

Yeah I feel so much sympathy for you, and honestly, I feel empathy for you. And as a psychologist, I will say sympathy is like, "Oh, I feel bad for you."

Yeah.

And like empathy is like I feel the feeling that you have.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, I, I empathize with them because I know what it's like to not know what you're going to do with your life and to be sort of panicking that, you know, with every moment, like, you know, more time that you are never gonna have back again-

Yeah … is gone. And so I know it sounds coherent, and I'm not saying that I didn't do worthwhile things in that decade or that I didn't learn th- but, like, I cried so much, David.

Like, okay, so when my husband and I got married-

Yeah … so at Oxford, the best thing that happened to me was I met my husband, Jason.

Yeah.

And that was really, like, by far the best thing. I also learned how to cook. That was the second-best thing, and-

… that's a f- distant second.

But I, I got married. Jason and I, um, met there, and we, you know, soon after got married, and we got this couch from my parents. It was like the world's ugliest couch, but sometimes really ugly couches are like… Anyway, it was a very comfortable-

Yeah … ugly couch.

Okay.

Um, and it had these, like, blue and cream pillows, and I would sit on the couch, and I'd grab a pillow, and I cried so many n- I mean, I mean, I don't know.

Did I cry more-

And why were you crying?

I mean, maybe you were different. I was like, "I don't know what I wanna do with my life," and I, I, I wasn't unemployed, but I found that to be really hard. And I bet there-

Yeah … are a lot of Harvard students who feel like that-

Yeah … because the goal of getting into Harvard, like you said, you won, right?

Yeah.

So you feel this, like, euphoria for 10 minutes, and then you're here, and then you have another goal, which is winning it.

Yes.

And I felt like not having a direction-

Was so terrible, and I really suffered.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense, and maybe, again, I'm just telling the story in retrospect, and we all tell these stories-

I know, but it's the thing, in retrospect everything sounds great … but you tell me if this is wrong, but what I see in it is you actually m- in some ways knew your direction, which is you wanted to empower young people to be successful, and you were trying to find the right way to do that.

And I was trying to find the how, right?

Yeah, and so you were trying to find the path. You weren't, you weren't que-

That's true.

Maybe if you had been there and you're like, "Hey, you know, I know you're crying, and like I just wanna tell you, you know the why-

Yeah … you just don't know the how." Like, uh, maybe it would've felt better, but at the time I was like-

Yeah "Should I get an MBA? I don't know. What's an MBA? Like maybe I should be the director of human resources. Like I don't know. What's human resources? Like, you know, I like kids. Maybe I should be a pediatrician. Ugh, I didn't take the MCAT. Like I- maybe I should be a principal. I don't know. I don't really like leadership." Like it was really, really-

Yeah … not fun.

But you found yourself at Penn getting your PhD in psychology.

I did.

When I was 32 I was like-

Yeah.

Yeah … "Oh, I think I should try this."

Do, do you think you found the right path?

I do, and I wanna say this. When I more or less wrote down on a piece of paper, I was like, "Okay. All right. What am I good at?"

Right?

Yeah.

"What do I like?"

Yeah.

"What do I dislike? What am I bad at," right?

I was like, "Okay. What do I like?" I was like, "You know, I, I do like s- the study of motivation." When I was 16, remember I said I applied to Yale-

Yeah … and Harvard. I personally wanted to go to Yale, and the reason is that I went to summer school there when I was 16 years old, and I had not only an overbearing father who was obsessed with achievement, I had like the cheapest father. So my dad was like, "You can't do any extracurricular activities, including summer activities, until you can pay for it yourself."

And I was like-

Oh, wow … "I'm sorry. I have no money."

Yeah.

He was like, "Well, you should start working." So I babysat, I walked… Did I walk dog? I worked at a photocopying store. Like I-

Yeah like nickel and dimed, saved enough money, I, I could pay for the five-week program, not the eight-week program-

Yeah … the five-week program at Yale Summer School. And because it was my money, when the course catalog came, I can tell you what it looked like. It was beige. It had a watercolor of like some Gothic building from Yale on the cover. And I ran my index finger down all the entries, and I picked psychology. I was like, "I wanna take psychology." So of course, in retrospect, it's like, oh, you're interested in human behavior, but now fast-forward to 32. I was like, "Okay, I'm interested in human behavior and motivation. I'm actually pretty good at, like, math and analytic stuff."

Um-

Yeah … " I love kids, but I don't wanna be te- I, I'm not… What I'm not good at, I'm really not good at leading people. I don't like conflict." And I was like, "Oh, maybe I should get a PhD in psychology."

Yeah.

That's how I came to that decision. But talk about, like, keeping it real and uncertainty. I said to my husband, Jason, and he will verify this. I said, "It's been 10 years," and you know the Evan Hardys, like, "Uh." He's like-

… "Lots of tears," and I'm like, "Yeah."

Um, I said, "Don't let me quit for 10 years." I was like, "I just wanna s- keep going in this direction for 10…" Like-

I see … "if I am in psychology in 10 years, and I wanna quit, so I'll be 42"-

Yeah … I was like, "Then let… But don't let me quit for 10 years 'cause I know I'm gonna be like, 'Oh, this isn't the right fit.'" And, and so when I was 42-

Mm-hmm … Jason said, "You know what date it is?" And I'm like, "Uh, no." And he was like, "It's 10 years. Do you wanna qui-"

He remembered.

Yeah.

He was like, "Do you wanna quit?" And I was like, "No, I'm good."

Yeah.

So I do think it was a good decision, but I really empathize with doubt.

Yeah.

Well, that's interesting because you, you know, you got started your PhD in 2002. You studied under Martin Seligman, who's the-

Mm-hmm … sort of famous founder of positive psychology.

Mm-hmm.

And you are very well known, I'm gonna say you are famous for-

Ah the study of grit.

Okay?

Okay.

And grit-

Yeah.

Yeah … grit, as you've defined it, others define it now, is perseverance and passion toward long-term goals.

Yes.

Okay?

Good job.

Thank you.

By the way, people usually screw that up.

Yeah.

They're like, "And grit is…" And then I'm like, "Well, it's not really, but keep going."

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so when you, in your dissertation research-

Yeah … you designed a grit scale.

Yeah.

And you administered it to a bunch of different populations.

Yes.

So this is, like, ranging from West Point cadets to spelling bee participants-

Yeah … to undergraduates.

Yeah.

And you found that basically even after you control for things like IQ, this, your score on these questions about basically my willingness to persevere with passion toward long-term goals predicts life success.

So this is you studying success, and it's something that is not just how smart you are, it's also how much perseverance-

How hard you work … and passion you have.

Mm-hmm.

And so I find that interesting because what you're telling me about your journey is that you didn't know what the long-term goal was, but you were pretty gritty in pursuing this idea that I want to help young people in some way. I wanna think about a measure of success for young people.

So y-

So if I could administer my own scale-

Yeah … to my younger self-

Yeah … right? Which of course I couldn't do-

Yeah … 'cause it didn't exist, 'cause I, you know.

But if I could play that magic trick and go back in time, I think I would've gotten a pretty high perseverance score. 'Cause the perseverance sub-scale has items like I am a hard worker.

Yes.

I finish whatever I begin, right?

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah, that was me. I mean, I, I have always been, you know, a, a, a very hard worker, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, I am not a person who's like, "Oh, but it's Saturday," right?

Um-

Yeah.

And I also do have a bias toward completion. Like, I hate to quit things, right?

Mm-hmm.

And the harder it is, the more I wanna stick it out. However, there are other items on the grit scale. As you, as you point out, David, grit isn't just perseverance, it's also passion, right?

Yes.

Like, loving what you do. And the, and the unique thing about grit- And this kind of surprised me when I started studying, you know, people like Michael Phelps, um, you know, people who, like, become really the best at what they do.

Yeah.

Not just swimming, but whatever, is that it's not just their passion is intense, but it's that it is consistent, that year after year-

Yeah … and decade after decade-

Yeah … there's this abiding interest. And so if you asked me what my grit scale score would've been, I think I would've gotten a very high perseverance subscore, but I don't think I had developed a consistent direction where I was like, "You know, ask me in 10 years, I'm gonna still be doing this." Like-

Yeah … I wake up and I'm always interested in this. I, I think that is not just true of me, 'cause I have collected now, David, lots of data on the grit scale.

Yes, I know you have.

Yes.

Right?

Including my own students, right?

Yeah.

Who, um, take it as a tool for self-reflection. And always the perseverance scores on average are higher than the passion scores.

Yeah.

I think young people who come to Harvard and are as hardworking as they come know exactly what I mean when I say sometimes you have determination but you don't yet have direction. Sometimes you have perseverance and you-

Yeah … don't yet have passion, and that was true for me.

Yeah.

I developed perseverance first.

Yeah.

Well, so you definitely work hard and you definitely have perseverance.

I do.

I guess what I'm suggesting is maybe you had passion, you just hadn't articulated it.

Well-

So, so you were, you were…

A- and actually I disagree with something you said a second ago where you said, "I don't like to quit."

Well, you actually quit a lot of things.

I do quit a lot of things.

Like, you, you came into college-

It's true … as a pre-med, and you quit that.

Yeah, that's true.

Right?

That's true.

So were you-

Well, I, yeah … did you, did you have grit towards being a doctor?

Not really by that measure.

Yeah.

Okay, well, this gets to like, a, you know, I, I hope a point of violent agreement-

Yeah David, which is like I have a different prescription for young people than sometimes parents like to hear.

Yeah.

I'm like, "You know what I want your-

Yeah … child, your daughter, your son to do?" And they're like, "What?" They've got, like, a notebook and a pen sometimes. They're like, "What?"

Like-

Yeah … "What?"

So they can be world-class at what they do. And I was like, "Well, I want them to sample before they specialize."

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I agree.

And in a way that's-

Yeah … quitting before you persist.

Yeah.

So there is this literature that, you know, we do have overlapping professional interests-

We do … as you know.

Yes.

'Cause I reached out to you first.

Yeah.

I was like, "Hello, Professor Dunning." "I would like to talk to you about your paper."

Uh, and you kindly said yes.

So, so when I look at people who are accomplished, and when other scientists look at people accomplished-

Yeah … and you go back to their childhoods, and you go back to adolescence, and you even go back to early adulthood, there's a striking pattern which is surprising, which is that they are very broad samplers. They try something-

Yes … and they quit it.

Yeah.

They try something else and they quit it.

Mm-hmm.

As opposed to being like volleyball, volleyball, volleyball, volleyball, volleyball. For example, when you look at Olympic athletes, and the US, uh, Commission for the Olympics has actually s- studied this.

Yeah.

It's the case that most Olympic athletes, not everyone, but on average, have played more sports-

Yeah not fewer, than comparable but not as accomplished athletes. And I think that's good advice for young people to maybe reframe, you know, the two years you spend at- McKinsey or some other job that you then end and then pivot, not as a failure-

Yeah … and maybe not as quitting, but as sampling. And research shows, but also my own personal experience, I mean all those years of tears, life is for most people like a process of trial and error.

Yes.

So I totally agree with that. We're in violent-

Do you agree?

I think we agree on that one.

We're in violent agreement.

But so here, here's, here's, here's what I'm getting at.

Mm-hmm.

So, so I think that- Actually, the way you define grit and the way it played out in your life is exactly right. So perseverance and passion for long-term goals. But I think what is hard to measure is in a grit scale-

Mm … you're sort of asking people to have self-awareness of whether they're actually pursuing their long-term goal. What I'm suggesting is you-

At what stage they are in, right? Because it's like, yeah you, yeah, you were pursuing a long-term goal. You just didn't know it. The reason I'm asking is I think it's an interesting way to marry something that I think probably some of the detractors of grit would say, which is, well, if you have grit towards something, it isn't… Like, like you shouldn't say-

Yeah, yeah you wanna persevere with passion toward being a McKinsey consultant. Like that's not-

Right … what it means.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It means like you have some broad goal. You… It's not because I had a goal of being in psychology. It's just that I wanted to have some-

It wasn't that specific goal. I just wanted to have something, and so you're right. In some ways, I should have-

Well, see, I think you had a goal … worked hard.

Well, I had, I didn't-

You just didn't know how to get there. Like, you were, you were trying to become a psychologist. And, but I don't

Know that I would've said it was like, oh- Yeah… help kids thrive through psychological science. Okay. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it didn't have that specificity. But you got a PhD in psychology. You could've studied anything. Why'd you study how to help kids succeed? Well, when I was 32, I did have some clue, but ask me when I was 31, right? Yeah. Since we're doing this time travel thing. Yeah. I don't think at 31 I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go into psychology, David." Okay. I think there were multiple paths.

But didn't it stick because it lined up with your as yet to be articulated long-term goal? That's my, that's my contention. Okay. So I think there's something- It's like you, you're like, "I like this. This is my-" Okay, I think there's something Harvard could do better- Okay, okay if I might interject to my own sort of like… And I think there's something that all higher education can do better. Yeah. I think when you are here as an undergraduate, you are like undergraduates who are not here, which is like you do not know what you are going to do professionally. Yeah. And yes, there's trial and error, but I do think that we can, we can do a better job of helping people think that through in structured ways. Yeah. And maybe instead of just unleashing them at 22- Mm-hmm… where by the way, in the absence of any kind of structured career exploration, they just all, like, apply to consulting. Yeah. Like it's like- Yes… it's like, wait, did you all really, like, want to do, like, is that, w- wow, so many- Yeah… of you are doing management consulting. Um, so I do think that we could do a better job, and, and what that would look like for me- Mm-hmm… would be if you're- If hypothetically you were advising the dean of a college, for example. For example. Yeah.

If I had the ear of the dean of the college, you know, like for example, here's a very easy assignment that I assign as homework in my class when I teach undergraduates, and I, I teach a class called Grit Lab. Yeah, okay. And it's not because I want every kid to win the gold medal in the Olympics, but because I think everyone deserves to have passion and perseverance for a goal that they care about. So here's an assignment in my class. I'm like, "Your homework assignment is to have a conversation with somebody you don't know about their career." Yeah. We'll call it a curiosity conversation. Look, this is how they work. Here's how to write a cold email. And I was like, "By the way-" I am not gonna accept any excuses for this not being done in seven days. Like, if you don't think that person's gonna say yes, ask 10 people. Yeah. Like- No, that's great… ask 20. I'm sure they- Right? Like, schedule three of them. So, like, do not come to Professor Duckworth. And in that structured setting- Yeah… they get to talk to an accountant or talk to an OBGYN or talk to- Mm-hmm… you know, somebody who started a company, and in that 25 minutes they learn a lot. And I feel like if we could give undergraduate these structured opportunities that are not just at the very end- Yeah where you're like, "Okay, you're graduating, like, maybe we could think a little bit about what you wanna do," I think it would be helpful. Hmm.

Helpful in what way? You think it would change people's choices about their careers, or you think it would give them a greater perspective on what other people do? Like, what's the, what's the goal? I mean, yes to both of those things. Yeah. I think the goal would be that they could, um, not feel like they had not done any of that work and then, like, suddenly they're somewhere. Like, you know, they're like, "Okay, now I'm living in New York, and now I have to-" Yeah… "figure this out entirely on my own." I think the other thing, I've, I've talked a lot to, uh, Wendy Kopp- Yes… who started Teach For America- Yeah… about this, and have you talked to Wendy about her- I have… like, passion- I have, yes… against, like, all undergraduates Many of them going into consulting Yeah… or investment banking. She was like, "Oh, come on." Like the base rate of young people who really want to be management consultants and investment bankers- Yeah… cannot be the same percentage as the ones who are- Yeah… applying for these jobs. Yeah. And I agree with Wendy that we can do a better job kind of just, you know, helping young people, even those who are so privileged to be here at Harvard- Mm-hmm to, you know, like explore the professional world. There's so many jobs that you couldn't even like name- Yeah… when you were 18 or 19.

Should we guide the conversation more? You said you want- you ask your students to have a conversation with a professional. Mm-hmm. Should you make them have a conversation with certain professionals? Are you trying to push them away from some careers and toward others or you just- I am not on a sort of like, you know, uh, some of my best friends by the way are management consultants- Yeah, yeah… David, right, like and, and investment bankers. Yes. 'Cause, uh, I, I don't think we, I personally don't wanna like, you know, say like, "Oh, these are the better careers." Yeah. Like, "You should be in the nonprofit sector." Yeah. Or, "You should be in government." Like, you know, I, I do think though that, you know, we're so limited. Yeah. Like I, there's so many people that I have studied, and it's like, "Why are you this?" "Oh, our nextdoor neighbor-" Yeah… " he was a surgeon." And so like, and nothing wrong with that, but I think having more understanding- Mm-hmm of your options, um, I think that could be, that can only be good, right? Yes, I agree. That can only be good, yeah. No, and I tell students sometimes, and they sometimes students will say things like, "You know, you should intervene in the comping process," or, "You should…" Uh, they, you know, people have, and students and parents and other people, alumni, have views about what Harvard or I guess I should do to… And I always say like, "I think there are a lot of times when I should intervene" But I, I like to, I joke with students, I say I have small government instincts when it comes to student life. Like I don't, they're adults, I don't, I don't believe in in a heavy-handed way. Like who am I to tell them what they should do with their lives? But I do think there are a lot of students who would choose other careers if they knew what was out there. Right. And sometimes make choices based on happenstance or whoever recruits them or whatever. And so there is a world that I think we could do, well, I, I do think we could do a much better job- I think information- of turning people on to different careers. I mean, like life is path dependent. Yeah. And, and in some ways if you think about the things you care about most, I mean, I said to my own daughter, Amanda- Yeah… um, who graduated here, I was like, "You know, one way to think about life is like how much I love you." I was like, "Do I love anything as much as I love you?" "No, Mom, you don't." Oh, that's the right answer. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, check." Yeah. I was like, "But you know, it's just this thing, it's like I, I don't compare you to like other Amandas I could have had, like other children. I c- like I don't do any comparison. I just love you- Yeah… in all your particulars." And I feel like if we could have some of that- Yeah sensitivity or sensibility about these somewhat arbitrary paths. I mean, David, is there something that you could have been other than the dean- Mm-hmm… other than, I always think of you as an economist- Yes… but whatever you are. Uh, yeah. Public policy/economist. Like do you think there are counterfactuals where you could be as gratified? I, I, I potentially, but it's hard for me to imagine. Hard to imagine, yeah. Hard for me to imagine. Like, I think that if I play my life out 100 times, this was the best outcome. Right. You know? But also, like I tell students sometimes, I say, like, "A year ago, sitting here today, I did not know I was gonna be the dean of Harvard College." Hmm. "So what makes you think you can plan your life out?" Right. Right. Like, I never knew what was gonna happen. Okay, so there is a David Deming who is here at Harvard, but not the dean. Yeah, exactly. Right? There's a million different- There's probably a pretty happy David Deming. Pro- maybe, yeah. Yeah.

It's funny, so you say you asked me- Really, do you force yourself to, like, force yourself to imagine the counterfactual what would you be if you were not an academic? I almost became a lawyer actually. Oh, okay. Yeah, I worked at a l- Hmm… but then I thought, I took the LSAT and everything. Yeah. Um, and then I was all set to apply, and then I thought, "Well, maybe I better go work at a law firm for a year to see if that's what I like," and I did that, and I didn't hate it. I, it was fine. Oh, look, you sampled. Yeah, I did. I sampled. Yeah. Um, and it just wasn't what I thought. You know, actually for me, it was that it didn't scratch the creative itch. I didn't realize I had it- Was it intellectually- … until I- … like, oh, like you can now figure out a problem on your own maybe- Yeah, and I, I like, I like the idea of creating something from nothing, and convincing people to pay attention to something they weren't paying attention to before, and there's a kind of… Y- you know, there's a lot of ways to be creative, but I think that's essential to the creative process. You're speaking something into existence and getting people to pay attention to it, interpret… Sometimes it's interpreting things differently, but it's like something new. Yeah. And I just realized that that was really important to me, and, and then I… But I still didn't know I was gonna be an academic, you know? And so I had a- What did you do next? … similar… Well, I went to graduate school. I thought I was gonna work in DC or be at, like, a think tank. What, which graduate school? I went to Berkeley. Oh, the policy- Yeah. Oh. I went to Berkeley. That's where I met my wife, so very similar- Hmm story. It's good to meet your- Yeah… spouse in graduate school. Flew far away to live somewhere else, and, and then we met, and then, um, I worked with a bunch of faculty at the Goldman School of Public Policy. It's a very small school, and they said, "Hey, you know…" I'd done some re- done some research assistant work for them, and they said, "Hey, you're s- pretty good at this. Like, maybe you should apply for a PhD." And I was like, "I don't know, maybe I should," so I did. Hmm. Uh, and I, I was gonna do the Presidential Management Fellowship if I didn't get into a couple of- What's that? It's a, um, like a fast-track program to work in the federal bureaucracy, so I was gonna be like a- Uh-huh. Okay… you know, work at the Department of Education or something. Yeah. Uh, and, and then I got into Harvard's PhD program, and Princeton. Mm-hmm. And, um, I actually quite liked Princeton, but, uh, my wife is from the area and did not wanna live in New- She didn't want to move to New Jersey… she didn't wanna go back there at that point in her life. No, it wasn't, it was like- Oh, she's like literally from Princeton. No, no, she's from the New York, New Jersey area. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of her family was in, was in there, and she just wasn't ready to go back, and so we, we settled on Boston. That was it for me. Okay, yeah. So lots of serendipity. Right. And, and I- And some path dependence. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, and I'm not saying- And most people have stories like that. Like, our stories- I, I just think like if, if you can, um, you know, I think this young generation, which by the way, you know, Harvard students today are part of Gen Z- Mm-hmm… as you well know as a dean. Mm-hmm. And Gen Z- I can't keep the new generations apart You know, Alpha comes next I just know that I'm not in them. That's all I know. You're definitely not in them, although you're very hip and on social media- Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah… and doing all those cool things. But Gen Z is the least happy generation in recorded history. But I do think that one thing that might help, I think this is a very self-reflective- Mm-hmm… generation. There's a lot of comparison because of social media and technology. Yes. You can see everybody's lives, and they look so great. I do think that that may not be the healthiest thing for us- Yeah… right? To always be looking at all the different roads not taken and like, "Wow, look at that road. That road looks amazing, and it's not my road," and I, I just don't know it. Yeah. I, I think sometimes that we get too much in our heads. I, I, I agree with that. I would say that there's a kind of- Um, appropriate amount of self-reflection in life. Hmm. That's very important. So you need a little bit to think, "Did I- what, uh, mistakes did I make? What can I learn from?" But then to not beat yourself up about something that already happened. A little bit. So a little bit, but not too much. Like salt. Yeah. A little, but not too much. Yes, yes. 'Cause you're going to ruin it. Yes. Reflect- Yeah… don't ruminate, you know? Yes, yes. It's- That's good So I think that's a thing that- Maybe a t-shirt for that… yeah, I think that's a thing that we all learn in our own ways.

Can I ask you a little bit more about grit, and then I wanna ask you about your new book. Yes, please. Okay. So okay, so here's something I've always been interested in about grit. Can it be taught? I- and is it, if it can be taught, is it more like a mindset which, by which I would think of means, like, is it a f- a switch you can flip on and off? Mm-hmm. Or is it like- Oh, now I think about things this way. Yeah. L- like growth mindset or something. Mm-hmm. Like, if I think about the fact that I c- I can change, then I can change. Mm-hmm. Or is it more like a muscle that has to be built- Mm-hmm… through repeated practice? Mm-hmm. I prefer to say, like, grit can be learned- Okay… than grit can be taught. Yeah. Because grit can be taught sounds like, you know, very kind of, like, straightforward, formulaic. Yeah. I do think it can be learned. Yeah. Um, maybe as somebody who also studies the development of human skills- Yeah… uh, you would agree with me that, you know, if there's one thing about Homo sapiens, it's like we are the animal that is born to learn. Yes. Right? Yes. You know, you can learn a forehand and a backhand. You can learn how to lead a team. You can learn how to, you know, do so many things. And so if, if, if passion and perseverance is a quality that you want to have, then you, of course, would wanna ask the next question, which is like, well, how does one learn that, right? Yeah. I think there are elements that are basically on/off switches, like mindsets. So the research on growth mindset, um, some of it done here, a lot of it done at Stanford- Yeah… um, would say, okay, if you think about human nature as fundamentally fixed, that's a fixed mindset. Yeah. And that mindset will not encourage you to persevere- Yeah… when you screw up. It's a, if you think about human nature as fundamentally malleable, as designed for growth, then when you screw up, when you get a bad grade, when you don't get a fellowship or whatever, like, you will have a resilience. And, and so, like, oh, I have a fixed mindset. I guess I should read the book Mindset and, like, try to develop a growth mindset. So that's one way. Yeah, yeah. But I think more and more that what we become is a function of who we're with. Yeah. Um, and for example, when you come to Harvard, I think it changes you. Yeah. And I know there are debates about the value of- Yeah… a college education or whether it matters to go to Harvard versus not Harvard. Yeah. Certainly, you can take an economic lens, and usually, uh, I mean- My outside reading of the modern literature, including recent studies, are like, that matters. Yeah. It actually does matter. You can- But they don't tell you why. I mean, these are some, some authors- They don't tell you why… they tell you it does, but not why. But you know something I think I would, I think- Yeah… if I can, um, uh, you know, surmise how you and Raj Chetty and others have written about, um, teams and about the- Yeah. I think we are very influenced by the people around us- Mm-hmm… in ways that it's very hard to appreciate consciously. Yes. But when you're with a lot of people who drink smoothies, at some point you're gonna start drinking smooth- Yeah. It's like when people say, "Me and my friend," you know, and like you- you're around enough people who say that, instead of saying, "My friend and I," you start saying, "Me and my friend." Yeah. Is it good? Is it bad? I don't know, but it's human nature. Yeah. Aristotle said we are social animals- Yes… and Aristotle was right. Yes. So I think college shapes you. I think every college has a culture. Yes, Harvard's culture may have shifted since I went here, but Harvard 2026 has a culture, and when you come here, and you live here, and you breathe here- Yeah and you eat here, and you work here, and you sleep here, yeah, it will shape you. So if you wanna be gritty, one easy prescription is in your local environment- Yeah… who are the people that you know who are more passionate and persevering? Hang out with them more. Yeah. Like, go where they are, and you'll become like they are. So this is the osmosis theory of behavior. It is with the osmosis. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yes. And- We'll call it the, the Deming Osmosis Principle. I think we're gonna call it, it's Situated. It's the subject of your new book, yes. It is the Situa- Yes, yes. Yeah, it is the subject of my book. That is more of the- It's the title of my… Do you like this title, by the way? Yeah. Do you think it's cool? I, I think it's too late to change, but I do like it. It's definitely too late to change, but I, uh, I was- I like it… I, I, I wrote a book, and you're very kind to ask about it, and I didn't know what to call it, so I did what a social scientist does, which is I did a survey of readers. Yeah. So I, I gave them a forced choice. I was like, "Should I call my new book Situated?" Yeah. Or, B, "Should I call my book Great Situations?" Situated is better. Is it? Yes. And why do you say that? Because it's, um, 'cause it has a, a slightly ambiguous meaning in a way that makes people interested. You're intrigued. Yes. You're like s- because Great Situations feels like- Great Situations is, like, very descriptive, you know? Yeah, you're like, "Ugh, too…" Okay, well, there was a very clear age trend, and as somebody- Really? … who's also a social scientist, oh my gosh, David, this data are beautiful. I collect the data, like 1,000 people. Yeah. And I don't even get data like this in my actual expe- So, so the older you are, the more you like Great Situations. Oh. And the younger you are- So I'm coding as young. Okay, I like that even better… you are young at heart, David. All right, good. And when my publisher was like, "Well, I think I like Gr- " I was like, "Yeah, 'cause you're old." I was like, I was like, "Uh, here are the data." And they're like, "Ah, data." I'm like, "You, da- but data." Yeah. So anyway, I won. There was something about the, um, what I've wr- read about the book, and, that intrigued me as a senator. Which can't be that much, since, like, I, no, I mean- Yes, I haven't read the book… I haven't published it yet. But- I'll send it to you. But I think knowing your research and knowing, I, I have a sense of maybe some of the things you might say. Yes, you have an idea. And, and one thing that I thought was interesting was- I'm not gonna say it was you. Maybe it was you that wrote this. It said, you increasingly, tell me if this is wrong, you increasingly think of grit as necessary but not sufficient. I 100% believe- So, okay… that grit is necessary but not sufficient. So tell me what that means. Necessary but not sufficient is like an academic term, so what, what… So- Is it? Yeah. It's so great, though. Necessary but not sufficient. It's a great turn of phrase, so we say it a lot, but- Maybe we could, maybe we can make that go viral. Yeah. Um, so, so I think grit is necessary. Yeah. So to be clear- Yeah… I recently reread Grit, and I'm like, "Yep." You're like- I mean, I agree. Like- … still believe it. Yeah… I'm like, yep, still believe it. You know, people completely overrate innate talent. Yeah. You know, when my dad was raising me, he was like, "Oh, you know, you're no genius." I mean, he was thinking about my IQ score. He was thinking about my SAT score. He was thinking like, "How smart is she?" But he wasn't saying like, "How hard is she willing to work?" Yeah. Like, like, "How long is she gonna stay in the game?" And I think he underrated- Geniuses are made, not born. Totally, right? I mean, anybody who knows anything about how a beautiful movie is made or about how a beautiful piece of music is… I'm like, oh my gosh, so much grit. So I believe in that. Yes. And I think it's necessary. Yeah. I don't think it's sufficient. So I think you can be… You know, one of my very good friends is Bridget Terry Long- Yes… who, of course, is a, you know- Of course. I know Bridget very well… a wonderful academic here. Yes. A wonderful economist- Right. Yeah… and, you know, former dean of the ed school here. And, um, you know, she said growing up that she was always taught to work hard, right? Yeah. But one of the things that she learned as she grew up and became an economist- Yes… who studies all the same things that we do- Yes… is that there are situations in which hard work pays off. Yeah. And there are situations- Mm-hmm… in which hard work doesn't. And I'll give one example from our common, um, interest, and I'm thinking about Bridget being at the, um, graduate school of education. Uh, I have been in classrooms in America where I'm like, it really doesn't matter - Yeah… how much passion and perseverance- Yeah this 11-year-old boy has. Yeah. I mean, nobody's teaching him anything. Like, I have been with this child all day, watching from the back of the room, and nobody has taught him anything from the first bell to the last bell. He, there was no math taught. There was no grammar. Mm-hmm. There was no science. Like, what happened in those hours? Like, I don't know. A lot of noise, chaos- Yeah… teachers, like, making conversation about what they did last weekend. Yeah. So when I say that the situation matters, I also think the situation is necessary but not sufficient. Yeah. You know, you could have a great situation and not apply yourself. But if we could, in this country, for once come to the nuanced understanding that both/and, I think, like, understanding that the situation matters is traditionally coded as a liberal view. Like, oh, structural opportunities. I, I think oftentimes, like, hard work- Yeah… um, merit is coded as a conservative view. I am not a very political person. I'm, like, just a person, and I'm like, wait, uh, just on logical grounds, like, isn't it both? Yeah. Like, doesn't the individual have to bring something to their situation? And doesn't their situation have to pay a return- Yeah… on their effort? So in some ways, it's blindingly obvious. It, well, it's obvious, but it, it's I think even one more step than what you said, which is, so one is, like, if I'm in a classroom and there's no teaching happening, I can't be a gritty student, I can't learn. But then it also- Well, you can be a gritty student and still not learn. And, and I still won't learn. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, yes. But then it also affects my motivation to be gritty the next day. Yes. Because if I'm in a situation where there is no winning, and there's no payoff to my effort, then it actually affects how much grit I have in the future, because there's no return to it, so. So I will reveal that I do I do lean liberal. I do believe in, like, strong public education, and you know, progressive tax policies and so forth. Um, but I wanna tell the story of one person. He's the only person I wrote about in both books, is Cody Coleman. Okay. I met Cody, he, uh, went to school at MIT, and he sends me this over-the-transom email. This is now more than 10 years ago. Okay. And he's like, "Hello, I'm Cody Coleman. I'm a senior at MIT, and I watched your TED Talk, and everything you say is my story." Uh, and he says, like, in a few words, like, he grew up, he was born in a prison near Trenton, New Jersey. Uh, and he lived in total poverty and chaos. Huh. Uh, and eventually made his way to MIT, not because he's a genius, but because he is really gritty. I email him back. I'm like, "Hello, Cody Coleman. I would love to talk to you." And I've gotten to know Cody very well- Huh… over these 10-plus years, and here's something that Cody would say today. And by the way, I should tell you the story. So he did end up going from a school district where nobody majored in math, science, techn- nothing. Like, no step. Like, he was the only kid in his graduating class to go to college and study- Hmm… science. Uh, graduates from MIT with a 4.9 out of 5, works at Google, goes to Stanford to get his PhD. When he graduated from Stanford with his PhD in computer science, Cody Coleman was the third Black recipient of a- Hmm PhD in computer science in Stanford's history. He was the first in 20 years. After that, he decided he wanted to… Or maybe coincident with that, he decided he wanted to found an AI startup. Yeah. So he has a, he has a- Sounds like a remarkable young man. He is so great. Yeah. I am so, like, Team Cody. Uh, and now he's on, like, the Forbes shortlist for, like, you know, tech founders who are most likely to have a billionaire unicorn startup. Yeah. So, so that's the story, right? But here's what Cody Coleman says. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but it really, these are Cody's own words. He was like, "A lot of times people ask me what's special. They think I'm a genius. I trust, I assure you I'm not. I'm not stupid, but this is not, like, some God-given, you know, IQ thing." Yeah. He says, "A lot of times people ask me what I think about, like, my life and about grit," because people do think of him as very gritty even if they hadn't read about him. He said, "I want you to know how important the situation is." He was like, "When I look at my life, I can see these five-year chapters," right? And at each five-year chapter, he, like, vaulted into a better situation, right? Yeah. From his not-so-great high school to MIT. Yeah. Right? From MIT to Stanford, right? From Stanford to San Jose, where he's got all this, like, venture capital support. Mm-hmm. He was like, "At all these five-year milestones- Yeah… I switched into a situation that was challenging but incredibly supportive." Yeah. " And that made me more passionate- Yeah… about what I'm doing and more persevering." So I think it's, like, so deep, people can't- But you, you, you used an important word there, is you say he vaulted, which is an active- choice. Yes. It's not like he just sat around waiting for the situation to improve. Yes. He said, "I've gotta get out of here and go there." Okay, so- And made it happen… I created a term for what Cody Coleman did, situational agency. Okay. I think when most people think about the situation- Good term… they're like, "Oh, you know, you know, gotta change your attitude, David-" Yeah… "because you can't change your situation." I'm like, "I'm sorry, you can change your situation. You don't like who you're spending time with? Spend time with other people." Like- Yeah… "You don't like where you're working?" Yeah. "Look for another job. Like, you don't like your neighborhood? Move." So I think that Cody Coleman is a paragon of grit. I know Cody Coleman is a paragon of situational agency. I see. That's interesting. So, so here's a practical question for people who wanna be well-situated. Yeah. So sometimes it's good to be a big fish in a small pond. Mm. And sometimes it's good to be a small fish in a big pond. Yeah. So what would you tell people who are weighing a choice like this? I do think that for some students it's like they end up being in a very big pond called Harvard. Yeah. Right? And when they were in high school, they were the- Yeah… biggest fish in a smaller pond, right? Yeah. And that is very hard, and I had that experience. I remember in my fall semester here as a freshman, you know, just looking at my rooming group, I'm like, "Okay, you fly private planes across the country, like, you won the Math Olympiad. You're…" Like, I, I am just some kid from Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Like, I- Yeah… and I had a, a reaction to that, which I think was ultimately very healthy. But my reaction of suddenly being a very small fish in a very big pond- Yeah… and not the shiniest fish, even though- Well, although, although I say that might've been your perception, but there might've been other people who, who knew and say this- Maybe other people were looking at me and were like- Yeah "Oh, that kid from Cherry Hill, New Jersey- Yeah… is really, like, yeah, making a…" But, um, but my reaction was like, "Oh, to hell with it, like, I'm just gonna be me." Like, I was just like, "Whatevs." I mean, I just… I think there was a, a moment in time where I was like, "Well- Here I am. Like here I am. I am the fish I am. Like, whatever. So, so I, I stopped comparing, like, you know, how big I was relative to the other fish, um- Do you think that's something about you? I mean, are there personality types that do well with one or the other? Or like, what'd you… You know, 'cause there are a lot of people making decisions like this. Like- Yeah… if you start a company and you're in, you know, a, a town in Ohio where you're the, you know, the main fish, it's like, or do you wanna move to Silicon Valley and try to- Yeah… you know, or like go to Harvard versus staying at a state school. Like, like, how do you help people make- Well, I know I was cheating, but you're the dean. Yeah. I mean, you see this all the time, right? Like, you see… You know what I mean when- Yes… like, the kids come here and they're like, "Oh my God," right? Yes. Like, what, what do you see as like, what's your answer to your own question? Then I promise to say something. My, my answer is that, um, we have instincts about what we should do that we need to listen to most of the time, and that most of the time you should make the choice that you feel is right, even if it feels risky. Because it's not just the outcome, it's how you feel about the choice you made- Mm… in retrospect that determines whether you make the most of an opportunity. So I tell people, "Never be afraid." Mm. And, you know, if you think you should probably do it but you're not sure, just probably do it. You probably should do it. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I say you never know. We're not talking about mountain climbing or other risky behavior. We're talking about professional- Yes… I tell, I tell students- … professional challenging things … it sounds cliche, but I tell them to listen to the inner voice. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think people are afraid to, and they don't always- Yeah sometimes if you don't, or you're not listening to it, you don't even know it's there. Maybe especially at Harvard, right? Yeah. Because you don't wanna screw it up, right? Yeah. Now that you've finally won- Yeah… as you put it, right? Yeah. Like, you don't wanna screw it up. Exactly. But, uh, yeah, I think that the- But it's funny 'cause the, it should be the opposite, right? So like having a degree- Mm… from Harvard is the ultimate second chance taken. I know. Like- So if anybody should be risky, it's, it's our students Right, 'cause it's sort of like, yeah, no, they did this failed startup, but they went to Harvard. Yes. So like, they can't be a loser, they have to be risk-taking and- Yeah like, uh, wonderful. Yeah, I think that one piece of advice would be, and I think that, like, being on social media and sort of like seeing everybody's great life, including, like, purposeful lies, right, like, is not a great frame. Yeah. I mean, instead of being like, "Oh, how big is the pond, and like, how am I relative to the other fish?" It's like, you know, really, as we both know, being older than undergraduates, it's like y- like, that just stops being a relevant question. Yeah. Like, you know, you, you just are what you are and you're, you, you know, like, it's, it's like my pond is not even your pond, you know what I mean? Like, it, it's just that you're not really comparing all the time. Right. You know? You're, you're saying that like, I think for students when they apply to college, it's a status competition where there are winners and losers, but actually in life there's many lanes. I mean, I really want- You don't have to be the best in every- I really want them to come to 25th reunion. Yeah. Like, if you could just walk around and hear how people are relating to each other, not in this rank ordering way. I mean, really, like, and I have asked other people who have gone to their 25th reunions- Yeah… at Harvard, and they're like, "Oh my gosh, it was so great." Like, you're finally just a person. You know? And you've gotten beyond, I mean, who cares if you were Phi Beta Kappa? Guess what? Nobody cares that you were Phi Beta Kappa. Yeah. Like, it can be everything to you when you are or aren't award… But like- I don't care, you don't care- Yeah… your next door neighbor doesn't care, your kids don't care. So, so I do think that that perspective is helpful because you stop- It- … caring about the pond and your fish size relative, and you just wanna, you know, do something. Yeah.

Okay, so Angela, I have a, I have a last question for you. So you've given me a lot of, um, advice actually, um, about what Harvard should do. In this conversation? Yeah. No, no- Yeah… about, about, or at least thoughts on how you think- Happy to work on it with you, by the way. Yeah. No, we sh- we should. Yeah. So, so here's my question. So you, as you probably know, um, uh, we are approaching the 250th birthday of the country. Mm. Okay? Well, Philadelphia, so like just saying- Yes, yeah 'cause I'm a Philly girl, and yeah. Yes. Big celebrations are in order. Philly, Philly, like Harvard, Philly, Harvard, both deeply intertwined with the history of this country. Yes. Harvard College had eight, eight Harvard College graduates signed the Declaration of Independence. Did not know that. Yes, yes. Oh, that's a fun fact. Yes. And so given that we're approaching the 250th birthday- Yeah I have to ask, like, do you, given all you know of Harvard, you came here, you sent one of your daughters here, do you think Harvard's a force for good in the world? And how could it be better? I unequivocally think that Harvard is a force for good in the world, and I told you I'm not very political, and by the way, that is an understatement. Yeah. I'm a deeply ignorant human. I'm like, "What? What happened?" I know. "Where's that war? Is that a country? Like, who? Like, how many congress…" Like, I don't know anything, but I do know something. I have been so proud of Harvard these last years. I, like, want to cheer. I'm like- You can cheer. It's okay. It's, I, it's totally inspiring. I think I've never had more pride in being an alum of this university than I have in recent years. I feel like we stand for science, we stand for knowledge. I personally think when you come here, you know, I believe that the students do feel safe- Right… and they feel like they belong. They are idealistic in all the best ways. Yeah. I think Harvard is, is one of the things that our founding fathers dreamed of, that we could have an institution that was dedicated to learning and new knowledge, and to bring young people from all over, from different backgrounds, and to contribute. So yeah, more than ever in my life, like, go Harvard. And how can we be better? How can we be better? Um, well, there is always that, right? Yeah. Um, 'cause if you're gonna be gritty, Harvard- Yes… uh, you do have to get better. Um, well, again, I don't have any responsibility like you do, David. Um, I, I, I do think that these young people could do even better, maybe on two fronts. Yeah. We've already talked about, like, how we can help them, like, figure out the next, the post-Harvard step- Yep… you know, better- Mm-hmm… but since we already just got it. And the second thing I do worry about is grade inflation, and it's not just Harvard, it's everywhere, but at Harvard, we're like, "You know- Yeah I got an A-minus." And same in our institution, and I could show you stats and you'd be like, "Oh yeah-" Yeah. "… that's exactly like our stats." I looked at my own grading distribution and I said to my TAs like, "Wait, I can't give out these… Like, everybody in my class got an A and some got an A-minus? Like, I" And they're like, "Well, we already posted the grades." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I am now part of the problem." Yeah. I do think we have macro cultural trends, and Harvard is not immune to them, about young people, about an decreasing tolerance for imperfection- Mm-hmm… for the messiness of life. So Harvard could do better, uh, in, you know, trying to create a local culture that I think runs counter to some, I think, unhelpful macro trends- Mm-hmm influencing young people. Angela, this was so great. Thank you for being here. Yay. Awesome. Yeah. David, I'm really glad you're dean. Thanks. That's kind of you to say. Yeah. Let me give you a high five. All right. Awesome.