Listening Well: The Art of Empathic Understanding. William R Miller - Edwin Rutsch

Hi, I'm Edwin Raj, director of the Center for Building a Culture of Empathy, and we're here to talk about how we might build a more emphatic culture. I'm here with William R. Miller, and you go by Bill, good. You're professor emeritus at the Psychology and Psychiatry department at the University of New Mexico. You have over 40 years of experience in teaching empathic listening. Your focus has been on the development, testing, and dissemination of behavioral treatments for addiction, and you're well known for the motivational interviewing approach. You have just many, many books that you've written, including *Motivational Interviewing: Helping People Change*, *Motivational Interviewing: Preparing People for Change*, *Treating Addiction: A Guide to Professionals*, *Controlling Your Drinking*, and, like I said, many more.

And what we're here to talk about is your book, *Listening Well: The Art of Empathic Understanding*. This is based on, as you say here, 40 years of work on the topic. So thank you very much for joining me for this discussion, and welcome. So I want to get started with, you know, how did you, you know, get started with empathic listening? What kind of brought you to this, you know, subject and how to get started?

It was kind of an accident in graduate school. I went to the University of Oregon, which was a very behavioral program and kind of behaviorist in philosophy. But in the second year, there was a year-long course on how to talk to clients, and none of the behaviorists wanted to teach it. And so they went over to the counseling program and hired a faculty member to come teach us that particular year-long course. She was essentially an academic and child of Carl Rogers, and so she introduced us to the person-centered way of being with people and there's some of the skills of empathic listening. It just fit for me, and I don't know if I would have, you know, come across that, I've been exposed to it otherwise, but for the fact that the behaviorists didn't want to teach the course. It worked out very well because then when I actually began practicing behavior therapy, it fit together perfectly. And in a way, this is a way of doing what else you do in the rest of your life. So that really is where I got started in learning.

Then you started the motivational interviewing process, as I understand that that you, you're learning this empathic listening, you sort of took it farther into motivational interviewing. Is that, would that be correct category?

Well, there was some time later that I mean my introduction was in 1972 to this approach, and motivational interviewing really arose in '82. And some important things happened in between. One of them was I was doing research, as you mentioned, on behavioral treatment of alcohol problems, but I was also teaching a person-centered way of being, sort of mirroring my own training. So I was teaching the therapists both behavioral techniques, but also this empathic way of listening well to clients. And as we, I and other supervisors were rating the sessions that we were watching, we were using a scale developed by Rogers' own students for the quality of empathic listening, and that scale predicted two-thirds of the outcome. That is, we could predict two-thirds of how much clients would be drinking based on how well the behavior therapists listened to them. I did not expect that finding, but it was enormous. I mean, the differences between different techniques were relatively small; the differences between high-empathic and low-empathic therapists doing allegedly the same manual-guided treatment were huge. So that, that got my attention certainly. And then I went off on a sabbatical leave in Norway with that finding in mind, and that really is where motivational interviewing happened. And it was not something that I went there with an idea of. What happened was I was interacting with psychologists in an alcoholism clinic, and they wanted me to demonstrate to them how I work with people with alcohol problems. And the first time I was exposed to alcoholism was on an internship, just the summer after I had learned about Carl Rogers, and I didn't know anything about alcoholism. And so ignorance was a blessing. And what I did was put on my good listening hat and just listen to the patients on the unit who taught me about alcoholism. And I would ask them how they got to where they were and what they, where they wanted to go in the future in their lives and so forth, and just practice really good listening. So I developed that habit, that way of working with people with alcohol problems along with some behavioral techniques. And so I was teaching them those, that combination of things. And as I was demonstrating, they would stop me—which my American students didn't do—they would interrupt me and say, "What are you thinking right now? Now you reflected something the client said, but the client said a lot of things. Why did you reflect that particular thing? You asked a question, but you could have asked lots of questions. Why that question?" And they literally evoked from me a set of decision rules that I was using that I was unaware of but had developed through practice, the essence of which was, "Let the client make the arguments for change instead of telling people what's wrong with them and advising them what to do and what they should do. Ask them what they think they need to do and how they would go about doing it and why it's important to do that." That's a bit oversimplified, but that was the essence of it. And I was therefore refraining from providing the answers myself. And when I met something that you might think of as resistance—which I don't think is a particularly good term—but, but you know, when when the clients seem to be pushing back, what you don't do is push against that; you ever listen to that well. And so it's really quite the opposite of the way in which addiction was being treated in America in the '70s and '80s, which was very confrontational.

Well, this book on empathic listening—now you've written this so many different books, and it feels like you're focusing now on this kind of foundational skill. What brought you back to wanting to write about that?

Well, that's exactly right. If it is foundational, you can't do motivational interviewing without having a solid foundation in empathic listening. And this is the first time I really have written for a lay audience of what this skill is about. I've written for professional audiences as I've been teaching this to professionals for a long time, and now in my retirement, I've started writing books for a lay audience with some of the things I've learned that I think are important to communicate, and this is one of them. It's, I mean, I think one of the most important things you can learn to have good quality relationships—not at all limited to therapeutic relationships, but friendships and family relationships—and it's not a common skill. People who do this well, it looks easy, but when you, as you begin to learn it, you discover it's actually kind of a challenging skill, and it's learning, you know, and very worth learning. But really, that's why I turned to this particular book, to try to make this accessible to a much broader audience outside the domain where it was originally developed by Carl Rogers and his students.

Okay, so you're taking it from more the professional realm—therapists, etc.—and bringing it into just something that anyone can read and understand. I want to say it is very accessible. It's about a hundred pages.

Yeah.

So it's a small book, which I like. Small foot, you know. It's got short chapters. I like short chapters. It makes it very kind of breaks it up, gives it a lot of space. It's um, it really is like a curriculum, kind of a step-by-step, step-by-step curriculum through the whole empathic listening process, like out of how to, you know, take every step and every, every part builds on every other one. So it's really a bit of a curriculum. Seems very good.

No, that's exactly what it is. Over the years, I developed a sequence of almost microwave Gil's that will Don each other over time, and you learn one, and then the next one builds on that, the next one builds on that, and the chapters are written in that way, starting at the maybe the simplest level, which is just paying attention and nonverbally showing that you're listening, to beginning to form guesses about what a person means, to turning those into reflection-listening statements, and building on that. So it is a, it's a series of steps that take practice. You can't learn it just by reading the book. And so we have, I wrote in the book things you can actually do to practice each of those steps along the way.

From my experience with having, you know, worked with empathy, this act of listening, empathic listening is really one of the foundational skills. And from this, it seems like there's so many different directions you can go. You can go into supporting people in their personal healing—is the therapeutic world, you know, as core—it's, it goes into mediation, but there's processes like human-centered design, that hold design community that if you design anything, you need to be able to listen well to find out what people's experiences are, what their needs are, and how you can design your product or service or system so that it addresses the person, you know, that your users need. So this core asked skill and mindset, to which you mentioned it's more, but it's also a mindset and sort of a way of being, there's no foundation one seems to me.

And that mindset or attitude is important. I mean, that Rogers was very concerned and so my, that does not be seen as a technique that you use on people. It's it's simply a learnable skill, but that involves a larger spirit or attitude of letting go of the idea that I have the answer for you. I know what's, I know what's good for you. I know what you need. I have what you need. I'm going to give it to you. It really is the opposite of that, and it's it's helping to call forth from people their own wisdom, and amazingly powerful. You know, my behavioral training was more, you know, I have these cool techniques that I can teach you, and you know, you know that's what you need, and this is, this is quite powerful. You can still offer other kinds of tools that you have, but it's within this empathic way of being.

Any thoughts on why it hasn't taken off more? I know Carl Rogers was asked, you know, why hasn't this spread farther? He says, "Well, the times don't seem quite right for it. There's something needs to happen for this adoption of it." And do you have any thoughts on that, like why hasn't it more widely spread through the culture?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think it's ever been needed more than we need it in ouristic culture, because this is, this is a sacrificial way of being. This is putting your, your own stuff aside for the time being and really taking the quality time to listen to and understand another person. And the average person in our culture, right then in most cultures, I think doesn't get very much of that, doesn't get very many minutes a week of someone listening deeply and well with no agenda other than understanding. And that's a tremendous gift that you can give to people, and it's can be a life-changing gift. I mean, one of the surprises in our research was how even a single session of this in a counseling context, people were turning the corner on destructive behaviors like drinking that they've been doing for a decade or more. And I, you know, I didn't expect that to happen, but it kept happening. So there's something about bringing out the best in the other person, about liberating their own wisdom and resources and knowledge and ideas that's much more powerful than telling people what to do. So it's just immensely powerful, sort of a process and mindset and way of being that is just unappreciated. Think how Rogers wrote a paper called "Empathic and Unappreciated Way of Being." So it's a lovely paper.

Yeah. I mean, this has continued to be influential in the counseling world. In my field, in psychology, it has kind of been mostly forgotten, and the last 40 years or so have been about who has the coolest technique. But technique is not where most of the action is, and you can't deliver a technique without being with somebody in a certain way. And the way in which you are with people accounts for much more impact usually than the particular techniques that we're using. So we just got, I think, enthralled with this idea that we could find these really cool techniques to use on people or do to people that would cause magic. It's not the place to look, I think.

Mm-hmm. So there's really sort of a way of being. It's a little harder to describe, but like what are we talking about? It, it's not just like this technique that you use, but kind of a way of being, a way of seeing the world, sort of a present. In you mentioned, I think in one of the chapters, to talking about, but that how to even describe that way, you know, that way of being, getting people out of just technique and into a way of being.

Well, it's it's partnership, first of all. I mean, it's not doctor-patient, teacher-student. That's, I'm the expert, you're the passive recipient here. That's not a particularly good way to do education anyhow or health care. So it's more of a collaboration and partnership. So that's, that's the first thing. If I come into the room saying, "I'm the expert here, and I'm going to dispense my wisdom," you know, there, it's you're pretty far from where you need to be in this way of being, at least. So it's that it's primarily curious about and interested in the other person's world rather than imposing mine, trying to understand the other person's experience, and it's compassionate. The primary reason for our having this time together, whether we're friends or counselor or physician or whatever it is, is the other person's well-being. And that's commitment to, that's a good commitment in friendship, that's a good commitment in a marriage, that's a good commitment in relationships, then I have a responsibility to the other person's well-being. In *The Little Prince*, the Fox says, "You're responsible forever for what you tame," you know. It's, it's that sense of interest in the other person's well-being, commitment to it, curiosity about perspectives other than my own, rather than assuming that my way of thinking is reality, to be interested in the other person's reality and to listen well to that and together try to figure out, you know, what's a good way forward, what so, and what kind of person do you want to be. It's that within a therapeutic environment or say like if the expert, right, you will go to the therapist a lot in general, you see they're seen as the expert, and then you come to them, it's like one-way empathic listening. And I thought I was in a dialogue with Carl Rogers and Martin Buber—he learned boobs. I don't think we'll ever get to the, I though that deeper connection within the therapeutic relationship, because it's kind of this one-way listening, and that's kind of image that professionalism that can kind of block like this mutual deep connection. Does that—

Yeah, my thoughts on that, sorry.

Well, it's, I mean, it's one-way in the sense that when you're in a helping relationship, you have a different role than the person is coming for help. So it's, you know, again in, you know, if I'm asking them to pay me for my certain my services, I didn't like for me to spend that time with them listening so I can get better. But in friendships, it's very much, you know, two-directional. And even in counseling and therapy, there's a certain amount of self-disclosure. Now I, and I do, will and do talk about what I'm experiencing as well, but only when I think it's going to be helpful to the person that I do so. So I, you know, and for the most part, my stories are not the thing that they need. They understand their own stories better. But if it happens that I think there's an experience that I've had or am having in the, in the moment in the session that might be useful, then I'm willing to share that too. So Rogers was there as well. It's not, it's not completely one-sided, but I understand what Buber was writing and talking about with I-Thou, and that that is the heart of this really.

Yeah, that being open to, as a therapist, you, what I'm hearing is you're sharing your authenticity to move the clients forward and also to be open and transparent with them. That's part of the relationship. Rogers called the genuineness, and believe that was one of the three things that is most important in, in being healer and helping a person to move in a positive direction and become what they have the potential—

Well, one of the chapters you talk about the blocks to empathy, and I was thinking of maybe going through to some of the different chapters, but this kind of leads to, you know, how you start, you to give a definition of empathy, I think in the, in the preference a machine trucks TR you A X, I'm not sure how you direct directs, and he says, "The ability to perceive and communicate accurately and with sensitivity of the feelings, the meanings of those feelings." And one of the sort of blocks that I see is that within the academic world and, you know, in society in general, there's really a lot of confusion about what empathy is. There's so many definitions, and there's even a book out *Against Empathy*, right? My Academical, his name is Paul Bloom from Yale, and I was, I understand what he's talking about, it couldn't make sense of it until I realized that he was criticizing wasn't even what I would call empathy. So he's like maybe criticizing, you know, identification or emotional contagion or, you know, it could be any a lot of different things. It's like if someone comes into the therapist and they're highly agitated, angry, and then the therapist becomes highly agitated and angry, he's calling that empathy, and I'm thinking that actually blocks sympathy when that happens. So they're not being present with the person that's coming to them for their friend or whatever. So I guess what I'm looking at is like how many sort of defining empathy or what do you think this whole confusion about him, the definition and the meaning of empathy?

Well, I'm not saying this is the one and only correct definition of empathy. I'm just saying this is the way I'm, and this is what seems to really make a difference in relationships. It is this particular skill of being able to understand and communicate back to the person the meaning that you're here. But empathy is brought, has lots of other meanings. It is, for example, a developmental milestone. As children are growing up, the ability to take another perspective and and imagine how the world would look through someone else's eyes. Early in the book, I even have a couple of sketches in there of what, what would this look like if you were looking at it from the other side. So that, that kind of perspective-taking is something that children develop the ability to do more or less over time. I do not mean what's being criticized there, which is that if you're having a feeling, I'm having the same feeling at the same time. I mean that if you're a Star Trek fan, that's Deanna Troi, maybe the Betazoid, the empath who literally has the same feeling at the same time. That's not it, it's not nestled on and even can get in the way. And the identification, in particular, can get in the way of your being a healer, of your being helpful with someone if you're just too close that you can't really separate yourself from the other person's experience. People doing alcoholism counseling, for example, in the first or second year of their own recovery have a hard time separating themselves from that person's recovery. So it's like their recovery depends on the other person's recovery, and it gets all snarled up. So that's not helpful either. And it's not sympathy. Brené Brown has some lovely teachings on this, that that sympathy really is separating minutes; it's feeling sorry for somebody, which is not creating relationship and moving closer to the person; it's actually standing back away from the person. So it just has lots of different meanings, but I was trying to be very specific about what I'm talking about, what I'm teaching, and what we know is a healing element in relationship.

If you're really talking about this empathic listening process of listening to someone and listening deeply into what they have to say and being present with them, and how do you listen, listen more deeply?

Yes, yeah. And so like you're just mentioning sympathy, so in Chapter Two, your company, you call it, but it's titled "Accurate Empathy," and you say what empathy is not—that you mentioned sympathy, though—is apathy, objectivity, and identifying, or like a really distinct making these distinction of what it is you're talking about.

Mm-hmm. And this is, this is measurable. This is learn about, mean it's not a vacuous kind of concept. I mean, you know, I can listen to a tape recording, to trained observers can listen to a tape recording and agree the extent to which empathy is present in that. Once you have this clear understanding of what it is you're looking for.

Okay. And the apathy, what you're saying that is, uh, that's lack of feeling or care?

Yeah, it's not that it's not absence of caring or feeling, and nuts and not sympathy, and not this idea of objectivity that I should be this kind of blank screen, that being a professional means that I don't show any reaction, I don't show any any humaneness somehow. I'm a helpful distance, almost robotic kind of creature, you know. So it, it's not that either. And the identifying, that's the part where II, if that way you're saying that they, it was that the some people, they, they take on other people's progress, is that what you're meaning? It, then they're sort of identifying with it, and—

Yeah, it can be, for, for example, you may be, if you're an alcoholism counselor, you may be so invested in recovery that it gets in the way if you're being helped with them because to the extent that someone senses you need to control them to do something, we tend to back away from that as, as human beings. When you're advised to do something, the normal reaction is not to do it, even if you agree with the advice. Something called psychological reactance. Now it, no way, well, you know, why we're wired that way actually, but, but it suggests that giving advice is not a particularly helpful thing to do unless the person asks for it or is giving you permission. But unsolicited advice is, is pretty unhelpful.

Hmm, often backfires. Yeah, I know that for myself, it won't give me advice. I think, do you think I'm so stupid? Think about that. There's something else going on here, you know. It's like, listen to what's really going on for me. I feel a real reaction to that.

Yeah, we know that about ourselves, and we forget it as helping professionals. Somehow, I, I was diagnosed with diabetes about a decade ago and was sent to a diabetes educator, and I sat there for 90 minutes getting this download of information and facts and what I had to do and all the things I needed to do to be well, no listening at all, just like dispensing of the of the information and advice. And I sat there thinking, "I think I know how to do this better." That, that that's not the way you actually help people to change their behavior is that they're kind of presenting or waiting to get out of the room and not at, not absorbing most of what's happening. And you know, and about 90% of people with diabetes don't do the things they need to do to be well. I think we know how to talk to people about change in a way that doesn't put them off but engages them in their own healthcare.

How would you have approached that in, in an empathic way if you had a program on diabetes?

Yeah, well, actually wound up writing a book on motivational interviewing because of that experience. But, but the essence of it is, what, you know, what would you like to know? Here's a, what you already know, first of all, you know, so don't be telling people things they already know. Here are seven things that you can do, seven hearings even, to work on that give you better control over your blood sugar. Which one of those can you most imagine making a change in first? Or maybe, or is your life just too busy right now that you don't have time to do any of those? But what do you think? I mean, here's diet, here's medication, here's checking your blood sugar, here's exercise. All these things can make a difference. Anywhere lives might fit into your life. So instead of lecturing on all seven of them, to find a place to start, and there's one relatively simple little piece of it, but, and asking people what they, what would be most helpful to tell them about it, if anything.

I guess using that approach, I could ask what is the most important thing when it's most helpful. Do we could talk about, for not kind of promoting your book, getting the word out about your book, do you have any thoughts on what's kind of what's the most important? I thought we could go through some of the chapters here and talk about it. I was wondering if you had some thoughts about that.

Well, if I, mean, to me, it is the way of being, the skill that I've been studying for a long time now, and I, it is one of the most important things I ever learned, and not just professionally, but in my personal life. And it is learning, and it's not something you learn in school typically. In fact, there isn't any place normally in our society where people are taught how to do this, and that ought to be happening. I mean, we should be doing that in, in schools, we should be doing that in churches, that we should be doing that in places where people are together and are wanting to learn how to be a community basically. So I put it out there just as one of the most useful skills that I know, trying to describe it in very accessible language and knowing that it's a skill that takes time to learn, like, like a musical instrument. You, you can't read a book and then be a competent pianist at the end of the book, you know. You have to actually have to practice and often get a little bit of, sometimes get some coaching and so on, but it's practice, practice, practice over time. So to me, it's not a particular in the book there so much as this overall skill that I'm trying to present in different ways and talk about how it applies in different aspects of our lives.

Yes, so it's like showing notifies in our lives, and how might we spread this as widely as possible? The culture seems to be the challenge I'm hearing, and by practicing it yourself is a good place to start.

Yeah, well, one way, you know, we're trying to do that is starting with the what we call a radical empathy forum for our local candidates here running. So at UC Berkeley, we're holding a workshop, not a workshop or a forum with the candidates running for our local State Assembly, and we'll be facilitating an empathic dialogue with them. So our questions may be, "How might we create a more empathic culture?" And then the candidates will actually use active listening, empathic listening with each other to dialogue about that. So that was one way, and they will have an audience. And so I'm really looking to, how do we spread this as widely? And that's what I'm so excited about. It's like I've been looking for really good curriculum. This is like the best curriculum I really seen for, for this in a really accessible level.

Well, in politics, we need this so badly. I mean, you know, we've become polarized into today's enemies basically, and and even in regular social circles, I was realizing, you know, this was another motivation for writing this book, simply don't talk to somebody if they're on the other side. That's not healthy. And in Congress, you don't talk to somebody if they're across the aisle, on the other side, you know. Well, that's not the way Congress has worked for an awful lot of its life, and you can't get much done that way. And I think we're to do away with the aisle completely and intermix people, love that.

Yeah, or, you know, but, but this idea of listening long enough to really understand what the other person thinks and wants and is hoping for, it doesn't seem to be done much in politics these days, and really needs to be done.

That's what I'm struggling with, you know. It's like, how to kind of spread this. I think part of it is having a good curriculum, and that's what excites me about your book. This is something that, you know, you can easily say, "Read this book, get together, you know, work on this together, you know, as a group, you know, practice the lessons in it," and it's just an excellent, you know, starting point for learning these skills. And so that's what—that's one thing I'm—why I'm so excited about about the book and how to bring it.

I think, you know, in terms of Carl Rogers, like how he was, you know, flowing. Somebody asked it like, "Well, why isn't this spreading, you know, faster?" You know, you're saying it needs a moment, and maybe this political moment is what will inspire people to take this stuff. It sounds like it's almost like maybe one of the influences for you.

If I'm—

Oh, yes, it has had influencing counseling in in pastoral work. I mean, this this was very much supportive, and he's very much a part of pastoral training still, but it hasn't gotten out into society quite so much. And and some of that is, when you read Rogers, it's not easy to write to read for a lay people. I mean, I—he's inspiring to me. His student, Thomas Gordon, did a very good job of conveying this for parents in a book in 1970 called *Parent Effectiveness Training*. And Gordon's genius was being able to say this in ways that ordinary people can understand. And I dedicated this book to him because that was—that was part of his genius, I think, of taking the insights which are really valuable that Rodgers and his students develop, but making them available and making them accessible. And this is a curriculum that I know works. Also, I've been doing it for a long time. Some people learn this much more quickly than others; some people take to it like a fish to water; you just—it didn't have very far to go. I've also had students in the course of my lifetime that I was not able to teach this to that just seemed to really have difficulty taking a perspective other than their own; that there could be another reality that would even exist level and be curious about, but it wasn't very many. Most—most people that I've worked with in training can get better at this, so it's a learning skill.

Yeah, I've used it in my family. Like, I—I talked for a long time with my family. Is he—man, angelical conservative, you know, some of them are Trump supporters. I would be have identified more on the liberal progressive side, and I talked about empathy and and you know, they didn't really know what that guy was talking about. And then a conflict started in my family where two family members on Christmas started, you know, kind of yelling at each other, being really upset. And I started offering this empathic listening to the first one person and then to the other, you know, they were present and just kept going back and forth. And that's slowly, just using these techniques that you're writing about, it start calming them down because they start feeling heard and seen. And then I asked them to start trying it with each other, and you know, then I sort of facilitated there—they would, you know, somebody would say something, the other one be upset, and I said, "Oh, no, you'll have a chance to speak, just fully hear this other person," you know, as my sister-in-law and my mother, actually.

And that's a tough place to do it. It is. I said a lot of people say you can do it in the family; you know, world peace is possible. And then all the family members who had been kind of like hiding in the corners, you know, during this conflict, they all came out, and it turned into this family empathy circle.

"All good for you." And we kind of talked for like in at least an hour, and it's like the issues—it seemed to be the issues that depart—we went down—it really became a whole different topic about the sense of feeling like a sense of belonging in the family. "I don't feel like I belong." And then that was kind of addressed—the family is like, "Oh, you belong; we feel, you know, you—we love you," and so forth. In big hunts and going totally change the dynamic, and it ended with, you know, basically hugs all around, and it was like—that was like the opening. It's like after that, it's like they said, "Hey, this is pretty good; this works, you know. This is—nobody feels too mean; nobody feels put down, and everyone felt included, and it was a positive experience." So we started having periodic family empathy circles, and and to the point where I was facilitating them, but now they—other family member says, "Oh, we don't need you; we got it covered; we can do this ourselves." So I mean, this is—it's like I want to put together, you know, I don't want to use this as my family to have a little study—you know, study group where we actually use that, you know, go through each of the chapters and then do use empathic listening to discuss the challenger's. So I see that it could be a real possibility for others to—to—to use that—this book as a guide.

That sounds great. Yeah, my chapter—I'm listening across differences—came out of an experience like that, you know, a congregation of teaching empathic listening so that you can listen to people who have political views very different from your own. And and I before or in preparation for that, I sat down with seven people who I knew had political views very different from mine and said, "I'll—you know, I would like to just listen to you for an hour if you're willing to tell me about, you know, what do you think politically, what do you value, is where do you hope society is going. I won't be disagreeing with you; I won't be talking about my own views; my—my whole purpose is to understand what you believe and what you think and what you feel, and I need practice of doing that; will you help me practice?" Nobody said no, and they were—and I found I could do it, actually. I thought it might be difficult, but once I put on my listening half, I know how to do that, so I think it's quite possible.

How did that go? How did it unfold, and what was the outcome that experience?

Yeah, well, I'm—as I said, I found, first of all, it was very doable. I didn't—it was not something I've tried to do because I also had just kind of avoided talking about politics with people that I knew had a different view. And this wasn't—wasn't a two-way conversation; I actually set it up saying, "I need to practice my listening skills." I would take it a step further and do more what you're talking about doing if we were doing another round of that, which isn't—let's listen both ways, and then maybe even begin having a dialogue about it, but remembering the listening skills. I didn't take that further step. One of the seven people said, "Now I want to take an hour and listen to you."

Hmm.

Crowd. Yeah, and he—I hadn't thought him anything about listening; he did a good job; he may really did. So I—I think the promise is there, and I was just kind of in the process of learning, well, how does that—how does this thing that I know how to do help and maybe have a healing impact around pretty big political differences. So yeah, that's something I like—I've been doing some mediation between the left and the right. So you know, after Charlottesville, there was a right-wing group came to San Francisco to do a rally and then also to Berkeley, you know, do you remember that?

No.

And I actually reached out to the organizer on the—on the right, the guy named Joey Gibson. I said, "Would you like to do an empathy circle with someone on the left?" And he said, "Sure, I'll do it." He was like very open to doing it. It was harder actually on the left to get someone to take part; that took me several days to line somebody afterward; they finally did, and you actually did a recorded online empathy circle where we did—I get helped facilitate them in doing the empathic listening. So I explained how the process works and then just help them with, you know, dialogue like that together. And then I also did the same for the person who was organizing the right-wing rally in Berkeley, and she was—and she was like, "Say, sure, I'll do it." I could not find anyone in Berkeley that was willing to talk to her—I was on the left—I was like totally in shock. I mean, okay, it's like—it's totally changed my view about the left and the right seeing this; it's really—it's really more like a dysfunctional family, you know. There is—there is no, you know, buddy who's—who's the—the pure and, you know, whatever, you know. It's like it's more like a dysfunctional family; we need—we need this skill. I mean, really, this is the skill that I see that we need to bring the different sides together.

So at the end of his life, Carl Rogers was—I went to Northern Ireland when they were in the middle of the troubles and did the empathy circles with people to talk to each other from the Protestant Catholic sides. And we were in the middle of the civil rights movement, and he was doing what you call empathy circles with—with black and white listeners, just people coming together to understand each other. So I think it's a very, very powerful healing tool across those kinds of differences, and left and right is an illusion. Yeah, that there are two sides—something, you know, with everybody is this mix of different kinds of views and values, and it's not like there are—there are two sets of values, and that's it. A wonderful book that—only you've seen it—called *America's Nations* that talks about 13 different cultures that sort of moved into the United States with very, very different values, and and one of the arguments is there is no original set of American values; there are these thirteen different kinds of values that populate in different parts of the United States, and to a surprising extent the values of that populating culture, like the Puritans, continue to be found in that geographic area. So just that there are two opposing views as these an illusion—that's not—it isn't real.

Us, and then one of the things I dislike most—I try to listen to—to talk radio on both sides of the spectrum, but very often it's us versus them language that I think is pretty unhelpful. It does seem that having this skill, this mindset, this empathic mindset, if the culture had that, it can become the—through the—the Gateway to any other value; if it becomes the bridge, I guess it's—then this is the bridge that can bridge on those—these—that's my dream is that this is the bridge that bridges all those different cultures and all those different values that people have. So that's why this is so—this book, I think, is so valuable. No, we're not uniform with within a political party, you are in a racial ethnic group or whatever; there's tremendous diversity within those, and just to believe that there are just us and them—only two sides—is a complete illusion.

Yeah. And then there's—there's also all these roadblocks. You have a chapter—like Chapter 5 is roadblocks to listening, and you really lay out, I think, with like 12 different roadblocks, and there's—I think there's many, many more, it's—but these are, you know, some of the big ones like directing, which are—which are the ones that you find the most, you know, it's most difficult roadblocks to empathy, the ones I fall into Mo's easily. That's why the work is in that—by the way—is the work of Thomas Gordon. Well, roadblocks came right out of *Parent Effectiveness Training*. I—I tend to—I think agree or disagree with people too readily—not—not in my professional work, but just in ordinary communications, either, you know, "Yes, you're right," which is in a way is saying, "Okay, I've heard enough now; I know that you're right," you know, or "No, you're wrong," which is, "Now I've heard enough now, and I know that you're wrong," and that "I've heard enough now" is such a common theme and almost all those roadblocks. I'm sure it's going to be alright, you know, the desire to—to soothe the person and reassure them, you know, is not listening. Asking questions also—this—this is one of the really big ones that when I'm training counselors just to get them to stop asking questions as if once you've asked enough questions you'll have the answer. You won't know, but asking questions is easy; it's a lot easier than reflecting, and it puts you and control in a way that's not healthy but is comforting for the—for the counselor—just asking a lot of questions. Those are some of them—were—mmm—like what about smears? How do I articulate the experience in the moment, you know, like you're talking about Carl Rogers saying it like that congruence or, you know, that sharing authenticity. So how do I articulate in the moment?

And I think that's it. Yeah, it—that's one that I deal with, too. Again, Tom was Gordon; I draw on often with—with the I-message—of saying it in a way that you're responsible for it, you know, "This is my feeling; this is not that you're a selfish person," you know, but "I—I feel like I'm being—like you're shutting me out here and not—not listening to me," whatever—whatever my own senses things that start with the word "you" often don't go well.

Yeah, it's—it's—there's also another aspect was just coming to mind was that the ongoing learning and practicing comes—it's like you can go to a workshop and people—it's like—and I see that people get like excited about, you know, listening, and they feel heard, and they feel they're—"I'm gonna buy I," you know, there seems to be this sense that this is really an ongoing—it's sort of like an exercise that, you know, you can do your push-up to your curls or your jogging, you know, and doing it once isn't gonna—you know, it's nice, but it's really—this is about a long-term process, you know, doing it on a regular basis, and practicing is one aspect there. And there are opportunities every day—all they want—I mean, I just—I still can get better at it; it's—it's like—like playing chess or a musical instrument or something—your—your whole life you can still improve your skill at it and become more comfortable and artful with it.

Well, that's what I see in a book—it's like almost—it's 16 chapters, you know, you're covering—you really cover the different aspects of the—the list of fantastic listening, you know. You talk about accurate empathy, what empathy is not, how accurate embassy works; you have a communication model, which is nice to see the sort of framework of, you know, how we have this deep or a tweet—like, you know, each have this meaning, and and we're both speaking, and how do we tap into the deeper meaning that work we have. So you've got a sort of a model for that—that's also Thomas Gordon—very well known.

Yes.

Person. And then the roadblocks to listening, which you say Thomas Gordon. Then you have some try it—so there's some exercises people can do. I have a Chapter 6—pictures without sound—so that's kind of what it is about listening that's going beyond words—like we're—we're communicating and passively without words, and how do we, you know, communicate right—edit without words. Right? You go into asking questions, so there is a little bit about open and closed questions.

Yes.

Yes. Some of that is good, and forming reflections, so that's—that's again—that was—try it—open versus closed.

Mm-hmm.

Connections—there's not a during a question into a reflection.

Oh, do I say a few words about that?

Yeah, it's in the—when we're doing the exercise on getting conscious of the fact that when I'm hearing a person speak, I'm guessing what they mean. I mean, just that insight itself is important because I think many people—most of us operate as if what we think we heard the person say—means—is actually what they meant, you know. Often it is, you know. So we have this one exercise of trying to guess what a person meant, and it's done by asking the question, "Well, do you mean that you—" So I would have a person say, "Well, something you should know about me is I'm a person who is faithful." "Do you mean that you're a religious person?" And the person only allowed the answer yes or no—nothing more, you know. So you just like 20 questions, you know. "Do you mean that your friends can count on you? Do you mean that you're someone who tries to have integrity in your life and be consistent with that? Do you mean that close relationships are really important to you?" You know, all of these are things that that word might mean, and you learn that some of them were right and some of them aren't right, you know. And and what you learned most of all is you want to hear more because yes and no isn't satisfying, and the person who is only allowed to say yes or no really wants to say more because they want to be understood better, too. So then we take it the next step to the reflection exercise. What you do is just take—you start with your question, "Do you mean that you are a religious person?" And you change it in two ways: you take away the word—the question words—"Do you mean that"—so you erase that—that's—so that's one thing you do to make it from a question to a statement. The other is what you do with your voice at the end, because if you take away the question words but you still say "You're a religious person," it's still a question. "No, you're a religious person"—that's a reflection. And the—the difference between those two is important, and it isn't always apparent to people when they're learning this, but there's a big difference between—"You're angry with your mother,"—"You're angry with your mother"—one of the first one—even though you don't intend that—sort of implies they shouldn't feel that way—a little bit challenging. "You said what, teenager? You—you don't see anything wrong with your behavior," versus "You don't see anything wrong with your behavior." It's just such a difference in the music.

Mm-hmm.

So—so practicing those two things—I'm removing the question words and then inflecting your voice down to make it a statement rather than a question—and it feels wrong at first because if you actually learned the last exercise, you know, you're guessing, and you feel like you ought to be asking, you know. But asking is the wrong communication—that it's threatening or challenging or demands or response from the person, and the conversation just flows much more smoothly if you simply make it as a statement.

Mm-hmm.

And the person that's perfectly free to say, "No, I'm not particularly a religious person, but what I mean is I—that—that I want my friends to know that I'm there for them—that I'm not just, you know, a superficial friend, but I'm somebody who was really gonna stay with them." Now you have new stuff to reflect. So the next size after that is staying on the horse—is continuing to reflect what you hear because every time you reflect, you learn a little more. So that's—it's a little more challenging still, but all those skills build on each other.

Yeah. And you're systematically going through these skills—learning deeper and deeper—and each chapter adds, you know, like another skill—like again—the basic—he had like Chapter 10—affirming—yes, you're showing appreciation, gratitude, good wishes. Yes. And then 11 was expressing yourself, which is—again—that when I was saying about my own problem, right? It's really—how do I share, you know, my authenticity? Where do I get to talk? Yeah. So it's like using I-messages and having a sense of responsibility—like in this relationship, I have part of the responsibility for this relationship is me, and taking that responsibility.

Yes.

And assertiveness—putting yourself out there. When I'm working with people, if I work with them until they've got a pretty comfortable with each step—so that's the difficult thing about a workshop—that you go through all of these steps, but if somebody is sort of stuck or struggling back an earlier one, I'm on to something even more complex. Whereas if I'm working with an individual student or a counselor trainee or whatever, if they're having trouble forming reflections, I'll work with them long enough to—okay, that could think it's pretty comfortable—then all right—know how to do that—and how we can take the next step. Well, what I was thinking of doing once I read your book is actually getting together some groups online—there may be a group of four or five people—and goes through the book chapter by chapter, you know. We read a couple chapters between meetings, and then when we get together and use empathic listening to discuss the book and to do the exercises. So that's something I'm hoping to do. I've been looking for a good curriculum—there's nine different curriculums—but this is just—yeah—very accessible; I find—good forty years.

Well, I'll go through quickly before your time is up here is—so Chapter 12—listening well in relationship—how is reflective listening different from conversation? Then you go into 13—empathetic understanding in close relationships—understanding your problem solving—the powers of I guess P's and B's, right? Just say a word about that—pleases in this—pleases. I mean, it—it's a—it's a particular way of listening—in a way that's why I included it—but what—what is it when you're—you know, in an intimate relationship with somebody—what are the things I do that really please my partner? What are the things that I do that really displease my partner? And likewise, what do the things my partner does that are pleasing or displeasing to me? Surprising how often we don't have even that conversation, but when you—when you know those, then you have both the ability and the responsibility to try to do a lot more P's than B's, you know. It's a—B—be careful about dispatching things that you know are hurtful and being conscientious about doing the things that are on the—on the P list—things that—that kind of built a person up—because we have a responsibility to each other to do that as well. And I did a fair amount of counseling of relationships—couples—that both time to come to counseling—usually in pretty bad shape—we're pretty much just singing each other constantly. And so stopping that, first of all, is a beginning, but then adding to that the exchange of pleasing things—very healing—even being interested in knowing what the other—what matters to the other person. And and the more you're in a close relationship—I said this in the chapter—the more you have responsibility to be careful with your—with your D's—with—and—zing's—because they hurt extra much in a caring relationship—much more so than they would just from a stranger.

Okay, we need that in our politics for sure right now. We have Chapter 14—this team listening—for value—sort of—that's again kind of going for the deeper—we've got the surface—we're going through different layers and getting down more to the core of other feelings that people really value or what they're—maybe their needs are—and so any lists—I think I like a hundred possible values—there's—that's what I was trying to do in my conversation with people on the other side of the political spectrum—to try to get to—what are the basic values underneath these beliefs or concerns or irritations or whatever—what—what guides those—your political views—so to get—get to kind of more fundamental values that are informing—"Well, here's why I vote this way, or here's why this issue is important to me."

Yeah. And then—then you go—15—listening—welling conflicts—that brings up the whole political conflict among others—so you know, we're adjusting that—and then really the promise of empathic listening is your last chapter, and I think that's where we—you know, really are—is like—this is really what's needed in our—in our culture, and how do we spread this? And if I may insert a shameless commercial, the—the book I wrote before this is called *Loving-Kindness*, and it's another piece of this puzzle of something that we have more of in our culture and be taking responsibility for doing, and that—that's a concept that is important in every major world religion, and my question was, "But what's it actually looked like? How do you actually—have you actually do that?" Yeah. And so that's—again—it's arranged in chapters with little bite-size pieces that you can take a look at.

Okay, well, thank you so much for this discussion, and it's just so excited about this book, and I plan on using it and so right away, and maybe we can talk some more about—about some applications of it—some groups or something—or some perhaps next step—so they hate so much what you're doing—so congratulations on applying this in a really important arena.

Okay, great. Thanks. [Music]