Transcription
Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. Very special episode and a very special guest. You guys love my guest today just from all of the history and the number of times this guest has been on the show and all the amazing feedback I get. She's a celebrity. You guys all know her and love her. Kathy Andorfer, best-selling author and MSL leader extraordinaire. Welcome back to the podcast. How are you?
>> Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for that amazing introduction and I love your listeners just as much.
>> Ah, well guys, Kathy and I, as you know, we are partners in crime and we have collaborated on this podcast and a number of other things over the years. And we were having a conversation and we talked about doing another podcast and here's the funny thing. The reason this episode is called the Seinfeld episode is because we said jokingly we could do a podcast about nothing, which the pilot episode of Seinfeld, if you've never seen the show, was that it's a show about nothing. Well, it later went on to be one of the most, I think, all-time best, most watched, even in syndication, um, sitcoms of all time. So, we're going to make this episode about nothing, but really it's going to be about the current state of medical affairs and the stuff that Kathy has been seeing over the course of maybe the past year or so. Um, and it's going to be awesome. But I guess to start, let's talk about your book. So Kathy published a book, um, The Art of Excellence, which is doing so well. We get so, I, so many people I know have read it. I've read it. Um, it, it's just an amazing resource for MSLs, aspiring MSLs, MSL leaders, and even people that aren't MSLs. So my first question is, how is the book going?
>> Oh, well, it's going really well. It's been, um, so rewarding to hear people give the feedback that it's made an impact on them. I love, some people have said, you know, they've dog-eared pages and they take it with them when they're on the road. Uh, certainly love hearing all that feedback and I'm, I'm so grateful to every person who has picked up a copy, anyone who has told a friend or a co-worker about it. Uh, it's been, it's been a fun run so far and a very rewarding one. And so you, best place to get it is Amazon, obviously.
>> Yeah. So far, Amazon is the only place you can get it, hard, hard cover or, um, paperback. Although I do have a limited set of very nice, like, actually have a copy here with a book jacket. Uh, if you want one, you can DM me directly and I can send.
>> Wow, I would definitely DM Kathy for that. I think I have one of those. Just saying. But anyway, um, what, tell me what do you hear a lot from MSLs or from readers, um, that they have found most helpful? Like, what's some of the most positive feedback that you get from the book?
>> Well, again, I think I have more than one main reader, right? There are those who are aspiring MSLs who want to break into the role and so they find it valuable because it helps them understand what is this, what is it about this job that I am seeking? That also helps give them the perspective and the ability to show up better in their interviews and to, to go out and network and, and get themselves ready to, to get into the role. Uh, and then the second set of reader is those who are new to the role or have been in the role for a while and want to get better at it. Uh, whether they, they just need more help with soft skills or really just, um, how to, how to showcase what they're doing. You know, it's a very fascinating role because you're doing it largely remotely, all by yourself, often trusted with a territory, sent off to, to go do excellence in your field, but not always given, hey, do this, try this, have you tried that? Um, the, the feedback in the immediate time, it's very hard to get. Uh, so a lot of what is learned about the job is learned on the job, which is one of those reasons why people prefer many times to hire someone who has experience because it means they understand the job. But this book is kind of like, uh, a fast-forwarding you to that point of having experience, whether you have actually had experience or not, because I've essentially downloaded my brain and my understanding of the job and how to do it well. So, it's, uh, it's been helpful to people, I think, because of that.
>> Yeah, for sure. What has the book done for you?
>> Uh, well, it checked off a bucket list of mine, which was write a book and publish a book. And I think really though, it's also, uh, set me up to write more books for sure. I, I'm already started on a second one for a, a much broader audience, more on the leadership level and, uh, outside of the MSL field. So, that's, uh, to be continued or to come someday. Um, but in the meantime, yeah, I think it's, it's given me that sense of accomplishment. Know, I wanted to do this always, write a book of some kind. I have, uh, started several novels, but realized with my, my life and my career, there's not a lot of time to focus on the type of novel that I wanted to write, but I could write about what they say, write what you know, and this is what I knew. And, um, it was very easy to write this book because it was my deep experience. And, um, so it's just feel, I feel very proud that I can, I can do hard things and I was able to squeeze it in while having a very big, juicy job and leading big, amazing teams and, uh, so, so the sense of, of pride and accomplishment is huge and, yeah, it set me up for who knows what's next.
>> Superstar. I mean, to be able to pull that off with the j, the job that you have, with everything that goes along with it, including the travel and the size of the team and building a team and being at a newer organization and all, all of the things that people don't realize is an absolute, I marvel at it. Um, I think it's amazing and, you know, one of the things that was interesting about, so I feel the same way. I feel like the reason, so I wrote a book, um, about the job search process called Job Search Mastery. The, it was easy for me to write. It just flowed. It was just, once I got into a groove, it was just really super easy because it was all based upon my experience, what I know, what I've seen, stories, pulling everything out of me and together to help people that are struggling on the job market. But like, once I finished it, the world changed.
>> Like, there's really not a lot about AI in my book.
>> Whereas if I had to write it now, it would be written differently. Is there anything you would have maybe done differently in your book as things have evolved?
>> Oh, a hundred things for sure. I mean, I, I, it took me about five years from starting to write the book to, >> be published. I mean, just the, the processing and packaging and getting the book out for publication probably took me two years. So, from, from the ideas I had originally, plus who I am now as a more experienced leader than what I was when I, I was like in the process of writing it the first time, is different. So, it's the world has changed. I have changed. Everything. So, I would write a very different book now myself and absolutely AI is a huge contributing factor. Um, you know, it was the pandemic time, right? What has that done to the MSL role?
>> Many pharma companies downsizing, changing how they leverage MSLs, sometimes more need for them, sometimes less. How do we continue to evolve how MSLs engage with the commercial colleagues? What does that look like? Where else can we input MSLs in the clinical trial process? I think there's so many elements there that, that, um, could really use some, um, expanding on.
>> Yeah. And as you're going out and I know you obviously you lead the team of MSLs, so you're seeing things on the daily, but you're also talking to a lot of folks that have written your book and are asking you questions and you're interacting. So what are you hearing? You know, what's going on nowadays in MSL world that, um, that you think is, is worthy of sharing?
>> Well, probably not a surprise to anyone of your listeners, u, but certainly hearing from a lot of people who are applying for positions, whether first-time MSLing or as an MSL experience looking to get into a new role. It's, it's a challenging job market right now. Yeah. Which is why everyone probably needs to read your book to help them as well, right? But how do they differentiate themselves now with so much competition, right? And I think also once upon a time, many of us who broke into this role, it was challenging, but it wasn't, uh, nearly as competitive as it is now because not as many people knew about it. Right? Nowadays, it's a, it's a role that is highly coveted. It's very rewarding. It's, um, attractive to a lot of people. Many people who are, you know, at the bench as a PhD or they're practicing clinicians, they're starting to feel burned out and frustrated. Pharmacists. All those people who may have not too long ago been enjoying their jobs are starting to feel pressures because of other things in, in the present state of the world that are making them more interested in a role like this where they can still leverage their brilliance, leverage their scientific or their clinical background and still do something different, very different than, you know, showing up in a clinic, showing up at the pharmacy, showing up at the bench. Um, but still being able to make a positive impact, hopefully, on human healthcare. So, it's a highly interesting and exciting role and there's more and more people who are hungry to make that kind of change. So, of course, that, that competition is, is high and so even when it was already hard to break in, I think it's getting even harder.
>> Yeah.
>> Certainly hearing that from a lot of people I, I talk to and kind of informally coach and mentor. So then for people that are either looking to break in or let's just say you're interviewing somebody, they don't have to necessarily be an aspiring MSL, but you have an open position and you're, you're looking to hire someone. What makes that person stand out to you?
>> Oh, I think it's almost always their soft skills. How do they show up as a person in front of me? Are they passionate? Are they excited? Are they able to just get me interested in still talking to them? I think sometimes, um, you know, the first factor I use to figure out if someone is going to be potentially good at the job is people who have reached out to me through LinkedIn. I get a lot of that and I don't always respond immediately to everybody because it's just overwhelming. But there's a few people who write exactly the right compelling message or they reach out to me in a way that I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'll take the time to spend with you. I don't have a lot of time, but I'll give you some time because for whatever, whatever you said." And that's what a really good MSL does. Cuz often times you're building a territory. You reach out to physicians, they don't know who you are. They ignore your emails. They ignore your LinkedIn requests. They ignore all the things because they're too busy. Nothing personal. They've never met you. It's just time. Uh, but really good MSLs know how to break that barrier down. So, I can tell a little bit in h, how I got in front of that person in the first place, whether they already have the goods. Uh, and then the other one is just, is it interesting to talk to this person? Are they dimensional, multi-dimensional, right? Not just a very stiff person who's going to be brilliant but not very easygoing because that's the thing with this job, especially now with AI. AI can answer the scientific questions, but can AI connect with you as a human to build the trust? No. Right. And that's where the best MSLs really do stand out. It's the ability to build a connection, know the right time at which to share a particular piece of information, the right time to ask a particular question, the right types of questions to ask to get someone engaged in speaking, and knowing when to shut up and say goodbye, right? Like, it's really important part of the job. You want to get invited back because you haven't overstayed your welcome. So, I think all of that, uh, shows a glimmer in the early hiring discussions, um, just with the way someone shows up.
>> Guys, there it is right there. I mean, you, you've heard it. Um, I hope that that resonates because that's the key right there to a successful interview and to a successful MSL candidate. Like Kathy said, that's what you need to do as an MSL. You're constantly going to be judged on your emotional intelligence and your soft skills. So, if you don't know it, have it down. Now, that's something you're going to have to develop in order to be successful in an interview and in order to be successful as an MSL. And you can learn it. It's, it's, it's one of those things that can, you can definitely practice and improve upon. There's a, I mean, I don't want to get into that whole, that's a whole another podcast episode. Um, but it is, it is definitely something to be taken very, very seriously. So now let's talk about MSLs and how, like, what stands out to you and is most impressive to you in MSL performance. Now, let me just say, I'm not asking you about a person on your team. I don't need names. I don't need metrics. I just want to know what is Kathy Andorfer CS most important when it comes to the evaluation of an MSL.
>> Well, number one, you have to have your science. Like, you have to, like, the price of entry is being capable, brilliant, and got your science down, or your ability to just learn and flex and learn that. That aside, everything else is about that passion and that drive. Are you hungry to continue to push past the barriers and hurdles that come in front of you? Because they do, right? Like, you're out there, you're like, we talked about, your emails get ignored. You walk in an office, nobody really wants to talk to you. How do you have the, um, ability to keep going forward? You have to have that drive. So, I think it's people who are really, um, excited, feel like they're bringing value to the team, like it's a kind of a positive iterative cycle, right? You, you have the hustle. Hustle rewards you. You keep going and you provide value and you just, like, have that nice little circle going. Um, so it's a little, it's, it's number one. Uh, and number two is, are you a good team player, right? Do you bring your fellow MSLs along? Do you share best practices? Um, do you offer to go do ride-alongs or whatever it is? Uh, I think that's also the sign of an, of an excellent MSL. Like, we are in this together. We are one team and I know everyone needs to and wants to differentiate themselves to become that rock star, but you can't do that if you're not taking your fellow people along with you, right? Like a rising ship, or a rising tide elevates all boats, something like that. Uh, I really believe in that and so I, I see that in the best of the best. Uh, and thirdly, I think it's your ability to connect with thought leaders, right? Can you show up with your brilliance? But like we talked about before, figure out when to really do your data, um, kind of messaging and, and get that piece out there to help change or influence and inform what they need to know. Uh, versus when to step back and listen, when to invite them to teach you, when to do those programming questions, how to, how to do that dance of scientific engagement and also do it compliantly and appropriately and, and follow all, all the rules within your particular system and, and then the overall rules as well. So, it's, um, having those, that subtlety of, of communication skills.
>> What's amazing to me about what you're saying and, and what you, that answer and the answer before is that a lot of what you're saying is really about effort as much as, if not more than, it is about having a specialized skill. Yes, if you're a scientific matter expert in a certain area, definitely. If you have experience creating and knowing how to create relationships with KOLS and that comes naturally to you or you have that experience and now it comes naturally to you, that that's a different kind of thing. But to be a team player, to go above and beyond, to take initiative and, and raise your hand and want to get involved in special projects, that's just effort. So.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I, I want to see that you care and you put the effort in because really, when you do that, everything else can fall into place. And you talk about the scientific expertise, that is, that is your price of admission, that will help you get in the door, especially if you don't have experience as an MSL. If you have experience in the disease state, that gets a hiring manager excited, like, oh, we need this on the team. However, that can be a double-edged sword because if that's really where your passion is, can you turn that off in the right moment? Turn it on and off like a little dial or a switch? Like, this is the space in which we really need you to, like, go all in on everything you know about that MOA or that disease state and everything. Like, give it all to us. And then, you know what? In this situation, you have to just dial it back and focus on what, what are the key pieces of data that us as a company, us as an organization have determined are really the areas we need to, to, to go forward with, right? Like, this is where you need to focus. I think sometimes a person who has too much depth of knowledge can sometimes, like, stub their toe because they're like, I need to tell you everything that I know all at once. And the best MSLs have all that knowledge, depth of knowledge, but they just know when to parse it out. Um, and maybe even feed it a little tablespoon at a time versus, you know, a whole plate all at once.
>> So, [clears throat] there's a lot of buzzwords in medical affairs. Always has, always probably will be.
>> You go to any conference and you hear buzzwords and every session is a different buzzword. The topic of the session is centered around a buzzword and some clickbaity title, and then you go in and, and you hear the, the thing, right? AI, omni channel, real world evidence, patient centricity. So I can go on and on. Talk to me about what you think an MSL really needs to tune into and it may not be one thing, but what advice or what do you think MSLs really need to tune into and pay attention to in order to stay with the trends and with the times?
>> That is an excellent question. Yeah, I think each one of those buzzwords is, is loaded and have, or not necessarily loaded, but filled with, uh, a lot of subtopics and a lot of things to have, um, top of mind. I think really to stay with the trends, it's to not go too far with the trends, right? Like come back to the basics, the basics of the job that's always going to be there for you. I, I say this to my teams all the time. You know, guidance comes in and guidance goes and, and people are worried sometimes, you know, where's the company headed? What are we doing? Where is the, the overall landscape going? Where is the MSL field going? All those things, like, you know, what, it's important to know and stay informed and at the same time focus on your day job. Focus on what you know. Continue to grow and excel and contribute in your way and all will be well. Like, sometimes we get a little too focused on trying to stay ahead of things where if we just, one step at a time, these are the things. And then maybe from that list of all those buzzwords, you, you pick a particular topic. You say, "Okay, you know, once a month, I'm going to go do, do a little deep dive into it. What's going on? What do I need to know? What can I bring to my team? What can I bring to my manager? What can I, like, understand a little bit more to give me that little bit of that differentiation? To give me a little bit more of that understanding. Uh, but I think sometimes we, we can like tailspin and spiral trying to understand some of that stuff too much. It's like, you know, maybe we need to focus on the basics and just get the things done and, and, and build what we can while also preparing for the future. Like, you do have to think about the future. You have to think about what's next. I like to talk about that idea of fit for future, right? People say fit for purpose, yes, and fit for future. Where are we headed? What do we need to have in place in order to be okay when the future comes? So, I don't know if I answered that one very well.
>> No, you absolutely did. It reminds me. So, I used to have this coach and he would talk about the unrequired and the importance of, you, you really have to force yourself to do the unrequired to get to that next level. But in order to do that, you have to start with what's required. And that's what you're saying is like, get the basics down first and do be really, really good at what's most important, and then you can start to really get into the unrequired. And that's, I think sometimes what separates those higher performers that can do more versus those that struggle a little bit is because they're not really doing a good enough job with the basics and what's required, but they might be kind of diluting their efforts because they're jumping too far ahead to try to keep up with the latest AI trend or this, that, or the other thing. Is that, am I saying that right?
>> 100%. Yeah. It's kind of like the shiny object syndrome, right? Like searching for something new, something different. But if you don't have that baseline, you're not even going to know what to do with that shiny object, right? Or you,
>> pick it up and see another one and off you run. And, and, and you're trying always to, to get ahead of yourself. And you will be getting ahead of yourself, but not from a position of strength. So that's it. Like, build a position of strength, understand your job, your role, all your things the best you can, and, and then layer and layer and layer bit by bit. And I, I think that makes such a big difference in, in how we do things. And then I, like I said, I think if you build intentional time that you can dive into some of these things to, to do the unrequired, I think that's, that's the best way to do it. And of course, it's so much easier said than done. And I know that's a thing I'm, I, I struggle with all the time where I'm working through, right? I have more projects in my brain and more ideas of things to do than I can possibly physically do in, in multiple lifetimes, right? So, I need to take care of what needs to be taken care of, focus on what is the next two to four big projects I want to get done, figure out the bite-sized pieces to get there, and then protect part of my calendar in order to make what the priority things are happen. So, I think that's, that's part of it, too. Like, you have to build these boundaries and protect your time so that you can do those unrequired things.
>> You said that so beautifully because you and I are so much alike in that way. We, we're visionaries and we have all these ideas and, and we want to do all these things and, and you do have to, you have to keep yourself in check. Um, so I, I know maybe that's why we become such good friends because we really kind of, we, we vibe in that way. So when it comes to medical affairs and in broader terms, the pharmaceutical and biotech industry, what scares you or keeps you up at night?
>> Ah, that's a great question. You know, I think scared is too strong a word. Um, but I think, you know, AI is going to have, it already does have an impact, I think, for positive. Yes. And also, who knows, right? Because I have seen, um, a number of different, like, AI MSL models that are very, very good and I don't believe that they'll completely replace that human touch, which we've talked about. At the same time, it may diminish the numbers of actual physical human MSLs that an organization needs, right? So, how do we continue to show that, that value of the human touch, uh, as a leader? That's, I think the piece that keeps me up at night, right? Like, why wouldn't a small company be like, you know what, I'm going to use this AI MSL model, feed it all the data, physicians will get what they need to make their decisions, and I can save millions and millions and millions of dollars. So, I mean, it kind of makes business sense to explore those things. At the same time, I know qualitatively, quantitatively also, that having the human MSL touch does make a big difference. It's just always been challenging to prove. And, uh, you know, that's what we talk about all the time, like, it's a never-ending story. How do you prove the value and the impact of an MSL team? And especially with a resource like AI MSLs, it's going to get harder and harder to show that differentiation.
>> Do you think that that's go, would that, is that becoming a differentiator? Whe, obviously, how valuable is this MSL? This MSL is really good at AI, knows AI, has adopted AI. Are they now more valuable than a regular MSL that may have not adopted it?
>> Well, I think an MSL who has adopted AI is definitely more valuable than one who, who's not willing to go there. But the things I'm talking about are, they just take an AI bot and turn it into an MSL and a physician can call up and have a conversation with and get all the data, all the information, all those things. It's obviously a little bit more narrow at the moment and how do we keep it like,
>> some of the more nuance things. So, I think there will always be the need for that MSL, but, you know, a good 60% of what MSLs do could be covered by these AI bots that already, already exist in a fabulous way. So that's, that's the scary part. But at the same time, again, I think the more we can encourage current MSLs to step into that soft skill, to really, um, dig into being the best that you possibly can be at your engagement and also what you bring internally to the organization from a strategy standpoint, from that insights gathering piece. Like, I still haven't seen, um, an AI model that can pull the insights. They can collate the insights best, but in terms of getting a physician to share information in a way to get you those really powerful insights, that piece hasn't been modeled yet. Um, so I think that's another area for us to continue to dig into. Um, but yeah, that's the, the thing that keeps me up at night.
>> Well, and it's funny when I said what scares you. Um, I, I, it is, it is a bit of a strong word, but the funny thing is, I'm not surprised by your answer because you don't get scared. You, you don't get, you don't scare easily, nor do I. It's just, what are the challenges? What do we, what are we, okay, this is, you know, this is something that is challenging. This is something I need, I need to improve upon or be ready for or think about. Stop ignoring. Make sure that I'm open-minded enough to embrace and adapt. Um, because it's time and, and when it comes to, and we keep going back to AI because it's such an obvious thing to look at, but there's a lot of other things too. I did an episode last week or recently, um, about patient centricity where, you know, not enough focus on the patient and it get, patient gets lost and, you know, all these different things. So, there's a lot of different angles we can take. There's a lot of different things that we could do better. Um, and, and make sure we don't miss the boat and get left behind. So that leads me to, let's talk about, I want to see, I want to see your vision for the future. Like, what do you think is next for medical affairs? 2026, 2027, 2028? And we don't have a crystal ball, we're just spitballing here, but what does Kathy Andorfer foresee happening in the next few years?
>> Yeah, well, it's impossible to answer that question without again talking about AI, right? But I, that is the, the, the MSL leaders and teams that embrace it are the ones that are going to be most best set up for continuation and for success. Uh, but I think really, the, the story is the same, right? It's how do we show the value of the team? And I think with AI, it gives us opportunities to improve upon our value-add story. What can we do? How can we get creative about about leveraging AI to show impact? There have to be ways, right? I think, I, I have a bunch of ideas, not ready to really talk about them now, but I, I think that's part of it is like, okay, AI is here, it's just, it's what it is. Uh, but also then I reflect, you know, back in the day, five years, 10 years, 20 years ago, the future was always looking, oh, well, what's the future for Med Affairs? Like, it's constantly evolving and it needs to constantly evolve because healthcare is evolving,
>> patient care is evolving, the, uh, global, everything is changing, right? So, you always have to be shifting and fitting for future. Um, so, you know, I don't know exactly what it looks like, but AI is definitely involved and, and maybe we, MSL leaders, figure out how to show the value, uh, of an MSL team, like from a real deep impact level.
>> So good. Guys, if you have not read The Art of, if you like this, you just go buy the book because, and this isn't about the book, but I mean, as you can hear from Kathy, she's just such a wealth of information. And by the way, I will say, there was zero preparation.
>> Zero.
>> Zero. We were just like, we're going to get on there. It's going to, we're literally no topic. We're just going to start. We're just going to talk. And this is, this is where we ended up. And I, I'm so grateful because it was awesome. I loved it. Thank you.
>> Thank you for having me. Yeah, it was a, a fun concept. We were just chatting like, "Oh yeah, what should we do for our next podcast?" Like, "Oh, let's just talk, right?"
>> Do it. Because this is what it's like when, when we just talk on the phone.
>> This is it. You just basically listened in on a conver, on a normal conversation that Kathy and I might have for 30 minutes on the phone. That's just what you did. So, I hope you guys loved it as much as we love doing it. Um, I hope you share it with others. I hope you buy Cathy's book. Um, and I hope you tell all your friends about this podcast because it's the best podcast in the pharmaceutical industry. I love you all. I appreciate you all. Kathy, thank you so much. See you guys next time.
>> Okay. Hey.