Pastor vs. Roman Catholic

Well, the final Resurrection is at the end of time. We're not going to... we're to what about the the uh thief on the cross, right? When Jesus said, or when he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And he said, "I swear today you will be with me in Paradise." Very good.

Now, what's important about that is that the thief went to Jesus for his forgiveness, but also the thief didn't go to a place called Purgatory. He didn't have to receive satis pasio. He was immediately with Jesus. Uh, which Bible teaches that through faith in Christ we have eternal life. We go, we go pass from death to life through faith in Him, and through faith alone. And that we're not condemned through faith. It's by grace, by grace through faith. By grace through faith is what Ephesians 2. Well, it says, "By grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not according to works, lest any man should boast."

As a Roman Catholic, you don't believe that. That is not true. So, you don't believe that you need to have a righteousness in yourself that the Father can see to accept you ultimately? Is it, is it through the righteousness of Christ alone? Yes. Okay. So, it's not through the work and the, the seven sacraments. Your, your works as a Catholic, or anyone, is your response to the love and the gratitude that you have for the mercy of God.

So, what's Purgatory about? Purgatory is about, um, purifying you so that you can enter into the presence of God, right? You need, you want to be in the presence of God. God has said, "Okay, uh, through your love of Jesus, or faith, you are going to be coming into heaven, but you're not quite ready yet. You're not purified. You have to be purified. You're not righteous enough." It's not that you're not righteous enough. It's, I think that's what you just said though. It kind of sounds like what, what, what, what we're saying is the gospel. The gospel that that Paul preached. The effects of the gospel. He says that he doesn't want to be seen before God with the righteousness, with his own righteousness. He says he wants the righteousness that's from above, that's a gift from God through faith in Jesus. So, he takes his, his record, his life, his deeds, his works, his labors, and he says, "It is skubalon, garbage, hot, disgusting garbage." And he says, "I want to be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but that which comes through faith in Jesus Christ."

I think you just admitted that Rome has perverted the gospel in such a way that it's not Christ and His righteousness alone. That is not true. It is, I did not say. Ultimately, when you die, you have to go to Purgatory to be purified, to be righteous enough in God's eyes to be in His presence. The gospel is greater than you think it is. It is a gift of righteousness. It is Christ's righteousness that I am, I receive through faith. It's credited to me. I have peace with God today, and there is no condemnation because of what Christ did. You don't know right now as a Roman Catholic. It's, it's consequences of sin. But, well, here's the thing. Christ has taken the consequences for my sin. He's died that death. And the Bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are counted righteous apart from their works. And God does not count their sins against them. Romans chapter 4. You, even through your regular attendance of the Mass, do not have, you do not know you have peace with God today. Have you committed any venial sins? Everybody commits sin. Great. So, you're, you're not, uh, you haven't been perfected or, or purified yet as of yet, right? And when's the last time you went to the Mass? Sunday. So, you were cleansed on Sunday, and then today is Wednesday, and now you have venial sins to be to account for. Okay. What's a venial sin? That's not, that's not peace with God. Well, it's different from a mortal sin. It's not, what do you mean it's not peace from God? We are all trusting in the mercy of God. That's all. But you went to the Mass, which you believe is a propitiatory sacrifice, presentation of the work of Christ on the cross, and it did not perfect you forever, as the book of Hebrews says the atonement does, once for all. You have sins today that you're accountable for. You do not know you have peace with God today. And that's the perversion of the Roman gospel.

Well, let me ask you a question. Why does St. Paul say you must work through, uh, your salvation? He says, "Work out your," he says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is working in you." Yes, to both will and to do for His good pleasure. Exactly. The works that that Catholics, or all people, do are as out of gratitude. Sir, did you, did you notice though, sir? Did you notice though? I did. I did. It's not my works at all that is going to get me to heaven. Except you've already admitted that it is, because you said on the one hand, you have sins today that you're accountable before God. To the Mass did not perfect you on Sunday. And you said that when you die, you're going to have to go to Purgatory so that you can be purified, to become righteous enough in God's eyes to be in His presence. The thief on the cross understood it better than Rome tells you. He turns to Christ, and then what Jesus says is, "This day, this day you will be with me in Paradise." That's the glory of the gospel. Huh? Then you tell me he's dead. I said, Mary's dead. The thief is dead, physically dead. He's alive. He's, he's of course alive in the presence of God, but he is technically dead. Are all that died, uh, as Christians, yeah? Are they all in the presence of God, alive? Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. I thought that's different than what you were saying. He's dead. She's not listening. I think so. The, so the people that have gone before, who have died, good Christians who believed in Jesus, yes, sir. Or horrible sinners who still ask Jesus and turn to Jesus for mercy at the last minute, like the, like the thief, like the thief on the cross, is, are they in heaven? Yeah. They got, they got in by the skin of their teeth. Scripture. Scripture. They got in by the grace of God. But at the end of their lives, if you, you just use as an example, somebody wrote this about, well, scripture. I appreciate the question. Scripture in a couple of places, for example, the Apostle Paul in his ministry, when he's about to die, he says that, um, he doesn't know what he wants to do. He's hard pressed between two things. Staying with them to minister to them is going to bless them. It's for the glory of God. It's all those things. He says, "But I want to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." And what he means by that is, of course, his death to be with Christ. And it says scripture, um, of course, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." And so that's, that's the biblical model. You, you brought up the Book of Revelation, sir. The Book of Revelation shows the martyred and departed, uh, believers from the first century in the presence of God, worshiping before the throne. And so, yes, scripture teaches that you have peace with God through faith in Jesus. You are justified by faith, just like Father Abraham. He offered nothing. He had nothing to offer God. It was through faith and through faith alone he came to God and trusted in Him. And Paul says that he was declared righteous through that faith. Rome has taught that it's not through faith in Christ alone. It is also through the sacramental system of the church. The grace is distributed through the means of the church. You can bring up the issues of the treasury of merit and the saints. All of that is not true.

So, you don't believe in a treasury of merit? I do believe in treasury of merit. That is not the, what you're talking about about is you're saying the sacraments. The sacraments are a way to help us continue to follow Jesus as close as possible. Okay. So, what Rosary that that you were talking about and making fun of, or at least, I guess the idolatry? We don't. Oh, I wasn't making fun. I was, I was pointing to. Well, I was pointing to the fact that if you read Isaiah, if you read Isaiah, Isaiah, God mocks people who build idols and place them up on something, uh, to bow before them or to treat them in some way special or like their God. God mocks people who build idols that can't speak and can't hear and can't see. So, when Moses is in the desert, sir, and the serpents were attacking the Israelites, and he put a serpent on the pole and raised it up and said, "If you observe this serpent on the pole, then you will live and have eternal life." That's right. And what is it? You will live at that time, right? And for the same reason, Jesus was put up on the cross. I think I think you answered your own question. What was, what was Moses doing though? It was a foreshadowing of Christ. That you, you have to look to the substitute, to the Savior, ultimately. Yes. Okay. So, am I idolizing this thing that I'm wearing? Well, I, I wear a cross too, sir. And I wear a cross as a representation of what God has done in Christ to tell the world that there is a cross and a Savior who died on it. But you'll notice that Roman Catholic crosses are a little different than Christian crosses because, because you, and I think, isn't it true that the reason why you emphasize that with your crosses is because you have Christ being presented over and over and over again through the Mass? No, it is not true. You don't believe that Jesus in Rome is presented over and over again through the Mass. His, his, his work. It's the, it's the once for all sacrifice. God is outside time, right? And so, um, it's the once for all sacrifice. I love that you use that word, those words, because Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews, describes it precisely like that, that he offered himself once for all. And it says, "He is able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through Him," through that atonement. But you admitted that your Mass and presentation of Christ on Sunday did not perfect you. So, it's not the atonement. It's not the atonement of Christ. His is a once for all sacrifice that perfects you forever through faith. This is a perpetual. It's a perpetual sacrifice that that never perfects you. That's not true. So, I thought you said you have sins to be accountable for. We sin. We turn back to God. So, you went on Sunday, though, sir? Correct. If you're, if you're a born-again Christian, you believe that once saved, always saved? I believe that when God saves a person, He gives them eternal life. Yes. Okay. So, then when you, if something happens, do you believe that? Can I ask you just what you think about that? The word eternal life. Do you believe that as a man, uh, we are constantly struggling with sin? Oh, absolutely. God is sanctifying His people, for sure. You've made your decision 10 years ago, yesterday, whatever, it doesn't matter. And then you turn completely from that and say, "No, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to follow you anymore, Lord." So, what happens to you? That's a great question, sir. And scripture gives an explicit answer to it. It says, "They went out from us." The Apostle John says, "They went out from us," people who apostatize. They went out from us in order to show they were never really of us. Jesus says to false believers, He says, "Depart from me, I never knew you." If somebody, I'll finish answering the question. How do you know if you were the person that says, "I believe in Jesus," and then you fall? Because people fall. Yes, they do. Humanity. Yes, sir. Yes. How do you know whether you're saved or not? Well, first and foremost, the only way I can have certainty and confidence is based upon God's own revelation in His word. And so, Jesus says, uh, and for example, it's, it's, it's to what you're asking about in John chapter 6. He says, "I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me." And he says, "And this is the will of Him who has sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given to me, but raise it up on the last day." And he says, "He came to give eternal life to the ones the Father gave Him." And that's our confidence is that Jesus keeps His own. And He says, "He'll never lose them." It seems like you're suggesting that Jesus could receive somebody and then lose them. I don't believe He's that kind of Savior. John chapter 6 says something different. I'm saying that people will choose to follow Jesus for a time and then will turn away from it. It's a false Prof. It's a false, it's a false profession of faith. Well, can I just finish the thought there? The, the false. There are people who have false professions of faith, for sure. That's, that's been a problem that even plagued the, the apostles. And that's what John said, "They went out from us in order to show they were never really of us." The demonstration that you are truly God's and He has truly saved you is that you endure to the end. Because Jesus keeps those the Father has given to Him, and He'll lose none of them. So, the evidence, the vindication that my faith is a living faith and it's true is that there are good works and there is perseverance. Because it is God who is keeping me, and Jesus says He'll never lose me or forsake me. So, the evidence that my faith is true, of course, like you said, the love, the good works, the obedience, that's the presence of the Spirit of God in me. But the real evidence ultimately that, hey, that guy was for real, that was a true faith, is that they make it to the end. But that those works and that obedience has nothing to do with my merit before God. Scripture says in Romans 4 that He speaks to David also in this way, that He counts him righteous apart from works. And He says, "He does not count his sins against him." And the whole argument Paul is making there, sir, is that it is through faith apart from any work of law. But Rome has taught you that the, the work of Christ, the work of Christ does not perfect you forever. It does not cleanse you permanently. You don't have a righteousness that comes from above. You have a blend of righteousnesses. Jesus, the saints. Mmm.

So, you don't believe in the treasury of merit? What is the treasury of merit? Okay. So, the treasury of merit, you, you know, Mary had extra righteousness, extra obedience, right? And it was more than she needed to be right before God. So, this extra merit goes into this treasury of merit, and through, of course, this being distributed through the church, grace, and all those means, you can have righteousness added to your account from other righteous saints and Mary and others. But the Bible teaches that Christ's work was perfect and able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through Him. Mary will not perfect you.

So, back to St. Paul, why are you working out your through your salvation through fear? And he warns a general congregation, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is working in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure." And that's exactly what we believe. You believe that working us, working through us, and our gratefulness to God is what asks us internally, we're driven to do good works. Why are we showing up here trying? And those good works. And that's a great question, sir. And I, and I am, and I'm glad you are here, standing for the pre-born. I, I am so glad. Ask you this, John chapter 6, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no blood within you, no life, no life in you." Y-right? Mhm. And then all of all of the Apostles that were there, well, many of the disciples left. Well, first of all, they said, "This teaching is too hard. Too hard. Too hard." So, he didn't say, "Well, I was just kidding. I was using it as a metaphor." He said, "Tell." Oh, I see. You're saying, "Unless my, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life with." You're suggesting that when Jesus says, "Eat my flesh and drink my blood," He was talking about transubstantiation and the Last Supper. Before you jump to that, well, hold on. Can I, can I ask you though? No, let me, let me finish what was going to say, sir. So, the Jews, blood is sacred to the Jews, right? Everything has to be, has to be, can't have no blood because blood is what the Jews believed conveyed the spirit of whatever it was. So, if you ate the blood of the life is in the blood, that's what scripture says. If you ate the blood of an animal, they believed that you were taking that blood, that spirit into you. The blood, you were taking the spirit of the animal into you by having their blood. Jesus specifically says, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you." Because what He was trying to say is, I want you to take my spirit within you. And that was, where is this in the text? Where is this in the text? John, uh, chapter 6. U-no. You just suggested that Jesus was saying, "I want you to take my spirit into you by drinking my blood." And I'm asking, where the Bible teaches that, where, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within." I know that the text says that. But you suggested that Jesus was saying, "You'll take my spirit in you by drinking my blood." And that's because all the Jews knew that if you have have blood, you're taking the spirit of whatever it is that that's blood. It is. Well, Jews didn't believe that animals had spirit, sir. Um, so, that's hard to, to think that they would have thought that. But scripture doesn't teach that. Why do they have kosher everything? Um, well, there's, there's a number of reasons why they have kosher laws. Has to do with dietary restrictions, the, the Holiness Code, and those, those things. Why? Well, can I, I'll respond. I'll respond. Um, so, first of all, when Jesus is speaking in John 6, that is, uh, earlier in the ministry than was even presented the Last Supper, or what God gives us in communion, right? And if you read John chapter 6, Jesus actually defines what He's talking about when they say it's hard. What He's saying is hard. He says, "That those who eat His flesh and drink His blood are those who believe in Him and come to Him." So, can I, I'm going to point something out to you. I'm going to point something out to you in the text. In John 6, He says to a crowd before they even understand what communion is or what the Eucharist is. They don't even have any, that's never, it's not been presented to them yet. Well, they've had the manna in the in the desert, right? But in terms of what you're, where you're trying to make a connection between, uh, transubstantiation and the Eucharist, and John 6, Jesus says to that crowd at that time, He says, "Eat my flesh and drink my blood, or you have no life in you." And they think that's hard. But then He tells them, He says, "That eating His flesh and drinking His blood is coming to Him and believing in Him." So, can I ask you a question? Let's, let's, let me, sir, I've let you talk a lot. Let me just one question. He allowed His disciples to walk away. Uh, well, there's a number of times He did that. But real, real fast, let me just, let me finish. Question. Me the question. Let me finish the thought. Me to walk away. I'll, I'll answer that after I finish answering Peter and the boys and said, "What about you?" Let's say, He said, "Sir, let me just finish before I answer the next question." Else can we go? So, I'm going to, I'm going to finish answering the, the, the first question before I get to that one. So, in that moment, on that day, early on in the ministry of Jesus, the Eucharist hasn't been presented yet. They don't have any concept of it yet. They have not had the Last Supper. There's crowds of people, and He says, "If you eat His flesh and drink His blood, that you would have eternal life." They're thinking it's hard. And He says, He, He says to them that eating His flesh and drinking His blood is coming to Him and believing in Him. So, the question to be asked is, if according to Jesus, eating His flesh and drinking His blood is believing in Him and coming to Him, then that day, if anybody believed in Him, did they eat His flesh and drink His blood? And the answer is yes, according to Jesus. Nothing to do with the Eucharist. Uh, I disagree. Well, that's what the text says. Well, let's see what the text says. Okay.

I have a question. Yes. So, what if you have premarital sex? Uh, what was it? But you still believe in Jesus? You still believe in Jesus Christ? Because you said, "Once saved, always." Well, I, I said that Jesus gives eternal life. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to change your. No, no, no, no. It's okay. No, it's, you're asking a really good question. Jesus said He gives eternal life, and that would be never-ending life, right? So, if He says, "If anyone comes to Him and believes in Him, you would pass out of death and into life, and there's no condemnation, and you have eternal life." You have eternal life when you come to Him in faith, right? So, He gives one kind of life, and that's eternal life. If that life ends, it was never eternal to begin with, right? Uh, and He says, "I'll never lose, I'll never forsake you." Now, is it true that Christians, people who love Jesus and are saved, fall into sin? Yes. But they did not stay in that fallenness of sin because they have a Savior who says, "I will keep you forever." And God preserves you. And the reason that that Christian is has eternal life from the start of faith to the end of their life is not through any of their works or good deeds or their obedience. It's through the righteousness of Jesus and what He did on their behalf. It's His perfect life. The Father sees. We're, we're hiding in Jesus. We're in Him. The Bible says so. Righteousness that we have is not our own. It's, it's Jesus' righteousness. And He was perfect, right? How much do we have to cooperate in that as human beings? We're not robots, right? So, how do we cooperate with that righteousness, that calling? I understand that, you know, in your faith tradition, it's that no one can deny the call of God. Like, it's just too powerful. It's impossible to deny it. So, true. True. The elect, the elect get free will? The elect get free will, or they don't? Oh, no, no. Well, yeah, we all get free will. Well, I would say we have, we have volition. We're making choices. But outside of Jesus, the Bible says that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. So, I don't think that people who are fallen, that don't know Jesus, have a completely free will. The Bible says their will is in bondage. Okay. But if you can sin as an elect, yeah, then how, how does that, how do you justify that? As justified? Yeah, yeah. No, it's a good question. How do you justify? This is not a weapon. Sorry. It's okay. No, I'm not, I wasn't, I wasn't threatened at all. Don't worry. No, no, no. But how do you, how do you explain that? Like, how were you able to sit in, if you are the elect and not be bonded to sin? It's such a fantastic question. So, what I would point you to is, is of course, Romans chapters 1 through 6. At the start of Romans, He explains that universal indictment upon everybody. Everybody is broken. Can you give me some of the scriptures? I'm not great at. No, it's okay. No, no. So, just in Romans 1, He indicts all of humanity. They're all enemies of God, haters of God. It's all of us. We suppress the truth of God. And then He goes to the Jew who thinks that because they have the Bible and they're Jewish, that they're good to go. And He basically shows them, you're a hypocrite. You tell people not to lie and you lie. Don't steal and you steal. So, He basically says, it's Jews and Gentiles, all under sin. And He says, "There is none righteous, no not one. None who does good. None who seeks for God. There is no fear of God before their eyes." And then He points to the glory of the gospel, that what God has done in the gospel. Yeah, that what God has done in the gospel is He has given to Jesus what we deserve so that He would remain just by not ignoring sin, but dealing with it in Jesus. Right? And then He says, at the very end of that, "The law will not justify you. It's just going to condemn you. It'll shut your mouth before God. It's not going to perfect anybody or make you better in God's eyes." He says, "Do we, what he says this, he says, uh, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." But then he makes an interesting point that you're asking about. So, we're justified only by faith. Paul says, not by works. And then he, it's Romans 3:28. He says, "Through faith apart from works." Um, but he then says, at the very end of that, he says, "Do we then make void the law through faith?" So, we're not justified by the law in any way. Paul's saying it's only through faith. He says, "But do, so do we just void the law now because we're justified by faith?" He says, "No, we actually uphold the law." Then he explains the goodness of the gospel, which you were asking about. It's a perfect question. Is that God has always saved through faith alone, apart from works, or apart from law. All the way back to Father Abraham. It says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness." So, he makes the whole argument that because of Christ's work, we're counted righteous apart from our works, and God will never count our sins against us. And then he lands on your point, Romans 6. He says, "Now that we're in Christ, now that we're justified, now that we have peace with God, he says this, he says, um, if you've, if you are truly come to Christ, you've died to sin and now you're alive to God." So, he says, "Don't go on presenting yourself as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God." And so, Paul's whole point there is that if you are truly in Christ, you've died with Him and you've been raised. And so, you still sin. That's right. That's what the hiccup is. How do you still sin if you are, you're, well, you have a, you have a status before God where God has declared you judicially. He's made the declaration. You're justified, right? Sorry about that. Justified before God. God's already declared you righteous because you're united to His Son. But you're indwelled by the Spirit of God. And scripture says that "He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." And for Paul, he clearly knows Christians will sin, but they'll sin less and less and less and less through a life of walking with Jesus and obeying Jesus and putting sin to death. So, the main point is that what the gospel does is it doesn't just give us a right standing before God, but what happens is that God gives us a new nature, a new heart, new desires. Are you separating from our B, our body though, when it comes to the newness of the person? Are you separating? Because if I'm, if I'm sinning less and less, does it matter when all that's right, right? Does it matter? A big, unless believe in mortal? No, no. I don't know. You don't? I don't. Yeah, yeah. But that's my, that that's actually a good point there. The whole issue of mortal and venial sins is the Roman Catholic because of what Rome has done with the gospel and redefining it and adding things. Um, the Roman Catholic never knows that they have peace with God today. True. I'm a Roman Catholic, and that's not true at all. I, I left my husband at one point for, you know, essentially another, another relationship. We got, I've done it all. I've done horrible and awful things. I have a child that died years ago. Socy. I do. If you die today, are you going to go to Purgatory? I don't know. That's, I can't judge. I can't judge if to heaven. But it's possible. It's possible you're going to go to Purgatory. And, and why, why would you have to go to Purgatory if you have perfect peace with God and there's no more condemnation? Justice still needs to be served. Was it? Oh, so Jesus didn't get it? Absolutely, He did. But He gets it, and you get it. So, the justice of God, according to Romans 3, is fully satisfied. Ines Jans, that there are sins that will bring death. And that right? And that has nothing to do with mortal and venial sins. But we know that we can go to that text. But I think the main point to focus on, I think, is important, is that what Paul says with the gospel is that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, that, uh, God has satisfied His justice in Jesus, and that we are counted righteous apart from our works, and God will never count our sins against us. So, you don't have that peace. Well, don't you believe that we're basically just, so does get, well, wait a second. So, we're talking about in, in Romans 4, he's making the point of how God can declare somebody righteous who is in fact wicked. And so, he says, "Abraham believed God, it was credited to him for righteousness." He says, "To the one who works, his way is not credited as a gift, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked," which is me and you, "He says, God counts him as righteous." Right. Uh, so that's the difference in what Rome says about the gospel and what happens in the gospel and what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches it's a gift. That it is something that God does. That it's perfect justice satisfied. His atonement was able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through Him. And here's my point. I was making to this gentleman over here is that what Rome has done with the Eucharist and the Mass, even the Mass, never perfects you. Did you go on Sunday? The Mass never perfects you. The Mass never, it never perfects you. Did you go Sunday? Did you do? Did you receive the Mass? Mass? Did I receive? Did you, did you do the Mass? Did you participate in the Mass? Participate in the Mass? Yes. That's all. Right. That's that's what I meant. Where we we offer Christ back to to God, right? And so, you, in the one time satisfied death, it is finished. But for you, it's not finished though. It is finished. We're just particip. Do you have, do you have sins that you're accountable for today since Sunday? Absolutely. Aren't we always? So, that that sacrifice, of course. But, but my sins, my sins have been satisfied in the once for all work of Jesus, and I have today peace with God. That's what Paul says in his gospel. Repent daily, of course, because I know God. Why repent daily? Because it's, it's my Father, and I'm His child, and He has saved me. I belong to Him. I walk with Him uprightly, confessing my sin that has been dealt with on the cross. Here's the point. When Paul finishes his explanation that completely denies what Rome is telling you about being counted righteous apart from works, not having our sins ever counted against us, you believe they will, some of them will be. He says, "Therefore, we," he says, "have peace with God through faith in Jesus Christ, that we have been justified, and we have peace with God through faith in Jesus Christ." You don't have peace today. I do. You can't tell me I don't have peace. I'm not saying an experiential peace. I mean, before God, because you believe that you have sins that you're accountable before God, and you have to go to Purgatory possibly because you won't be righteous enough. No, Purgatory. You are righteous. You're already saved if you're in Purgatory. The thing is, but you're not righteous enough to be in God's presence. You're righteous enough. No one is righteous enough to be in God's. And that's the glory of the gospel. Is Romans chapter 4, Paul says that through faith, we are counted righteous apart from our works, and God will never count our sins against us. About how you know, we also have to eternally. Well, James is, is arguing against those who have a mere profession of faith. And he's talking about the difference between a false faith or a dead faith and a real true faith is love and action. Yeah. Love is something that you, of course, not just feel, but do. That's a work, right? And what are we called to do? Love. So, love is an action. Therefore, if we do not love, we are not acting accordingly, and we will be, if we're going to be judged for our sins, judged as not the elect, which that's a whole another thing. I don't believe God creates people to condemn them. You, that's a whole another. So, you don't believe there's an elect? I believe in a kind of, and I think that, you know, scripture, you have to, scripture talks about it quite a bit. As Catholic, you understand, we don't look at it as He already has a knowledge to know from the outside of time looking in who's going to be. Wait, so you think that God, you think that God would look through time and see people who would believe in Him on their own? I don't. God in, well, scripture says, what about the unbeliever? It says, "There is no God seeker, none who seeks for God, none righteous, none good." And Jesus said, related to what you're talking about, when He talked about people, unbelievers, just people, He says, "No one can come to me. No one has the ability." So, what is it that imputes that ability? The grace of God, the Spirit of God, the gospel. Oh, absolutely. So, you are saved, but that grace is a powerful grace through faith. Told him earlier, you're not saved by grace. I didn't say that. Yeah, you told. No, he was, he was distorting the meaning of the text I was quoting to you. I was saying the text says, "We conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." He added the word "and grace." I was just quoting the text. He's just quoting a different place. Quoting Romans 3:28. Yeah. I was not, where St. Paul was talking about the grace. Yes. Yeah, that's Ephesians 2:8-9. That's what I was saying. So, that I apologize. Oh, no, you're not apologize. My thing is, you are the elect. Who are you preaching to? The is already the elect. If we are not elect, if I, if I watch you guys all the time, I'm best friends with Desi. I, so if I am or not, what is the point? Other than because the go, the gospel says, you know, to to preach the has already chosen the the such a sweet girl. Thank you. Through the El, right? I mean, that's, I have a real big up with Calvinism, that it's kind of like, what the point is already chosen. If you have the elect, and then you have those who already, what is it? Reprobate. That's the word scripture used. Reprobate. Well, I guess it depends on what language, right? That's the English word. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah. So, the reprobate, and then you have the elect. So, other than you sitting here, and I'm not mocking you, and you're just like, right, you're supposed to do, because scripture says to do, but how is it going to change my heart? Not first. I'm, I'll already be drawn to God because it's immovable. I can't. So, scripture, it doesn't tell us that we can, that we know who the elect are. We can look and say, "That guy is elect." It teaches that there's an elect. Jesus said in John 6, I was quoting this gentleman over here, John 6, "He says, I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me." And this is the will of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. So, it's Jesus who says that the Father gave Him a people that He will never lose. Okay? So, that's Jesus' words. He came to give us eternal life. We never perish, and He'll raise us up on the last day. So, the gospel is not, no, it's okay. The gospel is, is not merely, um, it's, it's a, it's a proclamation. It's a command. This is what God has done in Christ. It's perfect life and death and resurrection. And Paul says, "And now God commands men everywhere to repent." That's the duty of every image bearer of God. They're made for God, made to glorify God. They, they weren't made for some other God or some other purpose. They're made to worship God. So, we go to every image bearer of God, proclaim what God has done in Christ, and we say, "Now God commands you to repent and believe." Now, that message goes out, and sometimes people go, "Oh my gosh, I am a sinner. God is holy. Christ, I need You. I only need You." That is clearly the work of the Spirit of God in their heart to allow them to come to a place where they see their sin and they trust. They trust. Yeah, exactly. That's true. Yes. Except, um, scripture teaches that even the ability to repent and to believe is a gift from God. Okay. But that doesn't answer my question. Whether you do it or not, if you're elect, you're going to come to that conclusion. Well, no, you, you will only turn to Christ as a result of the gra, the power of God in the gospel. Yeah, but I, but I mean, but even more so in your, what you're saying, the way the Bible talks about how God saves, and the gospel is the power of God for salvation, and the Spirit of God opening the eyes of the blind and convicting the world of sin and righteousness. So, my point is, is that when, when the gospel comes in, it is a work with the power of God and the grace of God to the glory of God alone, when anybody is saved and truly trusts in Jesus. Now, just one, we do have to get to work here, but I want to just point one thing out to you, okay? When someone says something, because I think this is kind of what you're saying, if there is an elect and God's just going to save them, then why preach the gospel? I, I would say it the other way. Is scripture gives you such hope and confidence in the power of God and in salvation and His ability to raise the dead to spiritual life, that I go with total confidence that when God moves by His power to save a sinner, nothing's going to stop Him. But if you take the other route and say, "No, I think people have this this free will and they can reject or whatever come, they actually have the ability to come if they want to or reject if they want to. God's tried to save and He fails. Jesus can die for their sins and fail. The Holy Spirit of God could try to bring them to life and they could resist Him." I would say, then why would you preach the gospel? God's already done everything He can. Jesus died for their sins and can fail to save them. And the Spirit of God can be resisted by them. I go with full confidence that when God wants to save, He saves. Like Jesus says, "I will lose none of those the Father has given to me, but raise them on on the last day." So, I would just point you to this because you asked some great questions and you asked a really one too. John 6. John 10. Just read those. Go back to John 6:60 and read that. Oh, I love John 6:60. So, I was listening to James White. I love all the debates. I watch the TR horn debates. James White. Listening to, uh, what's his, the redhead beard guy? Oh, yeah, yeah. Jimmy A. Jimmy A. Yeah. Jimmy A. He's a sweet guy. He's a character. Yeah, he is. You shake his hand. I, anyway. So, uh, my question is, I heard James White say that there's Catholics that can be saved, but in spite of Catholicism, not in spite of what Rome teaches. Yeah, yeah. Catholicism is okay to say, okay, Rome is so derogatory. Well, the reason why I use, and I please forgive me, I don't, I don't want you to think I'm trying to jab. I'm trying to be historically specific. Catholic, Catholic meant Universal. And so, whether you were in Eastern, Northern Africa, if you were part, if you believed in Jesus, you were part of the one Catholic, Universal Church. But what this, but what this is today, what Rome has evolved into, specifically from Rome. And when I say Rome, I'm distinguishing it from Eastern Orthodoxy and other, you know, branches. So, what I, the reason why is because I'm trying to say, not offensively, that Rome has gone through a doctrinal development over time. So, it's Protestantism. No, but I mean, though, but what I mean, but what I mean, there's a difference. There's a difference though, in that Rome makes claims to authority and infallibility about its teachings and will tell you things like the infallibility of the Pope, the Immaculate Conception, and those sort of things. Will tell you that we are telling you this is dogma. You must believe it, day fay. You must obey this to be truly in fellowship with the church and in Christ. None of those teachings are in the Bible. B, even in the early church. And you will find even giants that we all respect in the early church defying what Rome says is is the tradition, the apostolic trad. Oh, yeah. You'll see. I mean, you'll even see, you know, one people say are in the line of the popes, popes denying that the Apocrypha is scripture. Right? But we're supposed to believe it. Now, in terms of fallible, as far as their own opinion goes, we have a very specific. I mean, do you see that? Do you see the loopholes you have to go through? Like a loophole? Because I hear that in Calvinism too. You, you know, I don't believe it. Say, God be true and every man a liar. God is point. All that. All that. My whole question is, if what James White said, a Catholic can be saved, not because of, but in spite of it, then then how, if we're not following gospel that. So, but that, what James, because you, it's such an important point. Worlders, somebody who's in Rome, Roman Catholic Church, they go to church, they don't even know the issues, right? They may not even, yeah, they may not even understand what the church teaches about the sacraments and, and indulgences, and they're not even understanding what is even been said in the Mass. Cability. Yeah. They, they're just, they're seeing, they're reading their Bible and seeing that Christ is a perfect Savior, and through faith in Him, I can have eternal life today, and they trust in Christ. What James is saying is that's happening by the grace of God outside of what Rome is teaching. They may just be ignorant of it. But what I would say is that as you keep reading the glory of the gospel and say Romans 1 through 5, and you see this gift and this perfection and this righteousness that's not my own, and God never counting my sins against me, you see that, and then you go, and Rome is telling you, "No, it's actually not like that. Um, you are going to have sins that God will hold against you. Um, and you, you don't have perfect peace with God necessarily today. You don't know that." That's a sin of presumption. I think of presumption, even for the elect, to think that they're elect, because you don't know. Well, can I tell you this, and we'll end with this one, okay? We'll talk more later. I got to see what's going on. Absolutely. Absolutely. John says, "This is inspired scripture, not my words." He says, "These things have I written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." He wants us to know that we have it. Rome says, "John, that's a sin of presumption." John says, "Believer, I want you to know that you have it. That's not presumption." Can we presume? Who's going to help? No, I, I don't, I don't think there's. How can we going? Well, that's a different, that's a different thing. What I mean by that, in terms of presume, I mean, like, I can't look around here right now and say, "Yep, that guy's going to hell for sure." I don't know how God's going to save him. And even a guy like Christopher Hitchens, my favorite, do you know Christopher Hitchens, my favorite atheist in history? I wish I would have got a chance to meet him. Um, he had a lot of gospel and a lot of good guys that he actually really liked that talked to him all the way to the end of his life. I don't know what happened to Christopher in the last four or five days where he was suffering, dying of cancer. I don't know that he didn't turn to Christ like the thief on the cross. So, I don't know. I can't, um, I, I don't know if he, I don't know if he turned to Christ. But you don't turn to Christ, you're left. You were already chosen. That's truth. Is if anybody turns to Christ, truly turns to Him, they are of the elect. But what only understanding of what elect is? It is, I think it's a, it's quite a, it's John, I'll read it, but I'm going to read it through your eyes. Well, just read the text. Don't read their mind. He, he says, "I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me." And this is the will of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. So, if people aren't raised up and they are lost, then they haven't been given to Jesus, because who the Father gave to Jesus, people He would never lose. That's the elect. I'm going to test the text. Do that. Do that. Great conversation.