Transcription
If you're a software developer today and
you're not using AI, I'm willing to put
money on the table that you will lose
your job in 5 years. I am 99% sure this
is what going to happen to most people
if they don't adopt this technology.
When I first discovered open call,
almost like two or three sleepless
nights trying to process what this means
cuz it's like this chat GPT moment
again. Everyone will have this in one
year.
Sup freaks. Before we get into the show,
I just want to send a heartfelt thank
you. Thank you for joining us and ask
for one quick thing. Could you like this
episode, subscribe to the channel, and
if you like the conversation, join us in
the comment section. Calle, it's been uh
a year and a month almost exactly to the
date since we published uh our last
podcast where we met in person in the
jungle and a lot has happened since
then. How have you been, sir?
>> Oh, yeah. I've been I've been doing
great. And wow, that's been a year and
over a year. That's crazy. Um I wish we
were in the jungle again, though. So I
mean, looking out at uh 20 ines of snow,
uh the jungle is much preferred to this.
But for anybody who's listening who
didn't catch that first episode, doesn't
know who Cali is. I'd be surprised if
you don't. Cali is one of the most
prolific and active individual builders
in the Bitcoin and freedom tech
ecosystem. uh working on Bitcoin uh the
Cashew eCash protocol, Bit Chat, uh
Clawi, AI, and other opensource dev
projects. You've got a PhD in physics.
And I mean, I've been following the
sparse podcasts you've been doing
throughout the year. I think you were on
Citadel Dispatch summer of last year. uh
and you were talking about this
proliferation of AI tools and how vibe
coding helped you build the Android app
for Bit Chat that has blown up. We'll
talk about Bit Chat, but I think
>> um focusing in on what's happening now
uh with Clawi AI and basically you
launching agents to help you do your
work. You tweeted yesterday about a
DevOps engineer that you launched that
would typically cost $200,000, but you
have it running autonomously 247.
What uh what's going on?
>> Yeah, I I I don't know what's going on
that I I strongly believe that no one
does where we're heading and it really
feels like everything that we're doing
right now is something that hasn't been
done before. So we are like 100% in
discovery or uh in in in a discovery
mode or in a pioneer mode where you know
any new idea on the table is basically
is is is probably the first time that
someone tries it out as you made some
examples like I've been um focusing a
lot on AI agents recently particularly
focusing on open claw and I like it a
lot and try to make it as useful as
possible and try to figure out ways how
to integrate it into the projects that
I'm working on to be more effective,
more cost effective and faster, ship
more and higher quality code. Uh but
we'll be talking about that I'm sure in
this part in more detail.
Yeah, I think I mean
just dive into like how
prolific this is for you. Somebody who
actually understands like I was saying
just before we hit record, I'm having
some sleepless nights pushing my open
claw agent uh to the edges and I barely
know what I'm doing from the systems
admin backend engineering
programming
>> perspective at all and I can't imagine
what it's like for you. um and
in terms of like productivity wise and
what you're able to do, what's what um
how profound has it been for you?
>> Well, everything has completely changed
and I would have never thought that I
would be able to say that in my uh like
programmer career. So, like many people,
I've been programming for decades at
this point. And so I I consider myself
like a professional developer with lots
of experience and and probably everyone
has noticed by now that the work of
being a programmer has flipped by like
180°. It has changed in a way that no
one would have predicted even only two
years ago maybe. So in the last one or
two years maybe we'll start a little
earlier. So the way I see this in my
mind is we have multiple stages of
innovation in AI with regard to uh LLMs
and agents. So level one was using an
LLM in a browser chat GPT. That was the
most pivotal moment in AI history so to
speak when you're think when you think
about how actual normal people interface
and interact with AI that was the
biggest moment. And I think also up to
date uh comparing to the penetration
speed of other technologies it has been
the fastest growing and fastest adopted
technology in history was chat GPT. So
um it has conquered the entire world and
that's level one. You open a browser,
you ask a question, you get a response.
And we've been, you know, doing that uh
for a year or two and also programmers
started noticing quite fast that you can
copy code from your codebase and put it
into chat GPT, ask a few questions, get
some code back and put it back into your
codebase. So there were many manual
steps uh still involved when doing
development work using AI. And um so
after level one we reached level two
around um maybe one and a half years ago
which is the introduction of agents and
agents finally gave the LLMs that were
previously confined in the browser um
gave them kind of legs and arms to act
on your computer. So that is for example
cloud code is probably the most uh
popular one and then there's codeex and
so on from chat jeep from from openai
what I use the most is open code which
is a llm agnostic framework uh fully
open source really high quality project
so um that is most of the code that I
write today goes through these tools so
um and now I'm talking to other software
engineers all the time about this and
it's it's very fascinating to see what
people think about this and how they
perceive their their job changing over
time and you have like you have a small
portion what feels like 10 to 20% of
developers resisting the change and they
they don't like AI and they think it's
it's fallible and it's not as good as
they are and then you have this way
larger percentage of developers who
use it and try to increase their
productivity. And um and what I see is
you know those who value the manual
aspect of coding and I compare them to
artisans. So people who take pride in uh
having done the work themselves and also
enjoy the process of doing so and see
some mastery in it or try to perfect
their mastery and skills in it. um have
a harder time giving up the job to an AI
whereas and then there is kind of like
the opposite of that is
prolific coders who've been in the
business for decades at this point who
notice that they can increase their
output by and I'm not exaggerating when
I'm saying like five to 10x um which is
you know if you are confronted with
an efficiency boost of 5 to 10x then
it's really really hard to say no. And
the only good reason that remains to say
no is extreme safety. So you're dealing
with Bitcoin for example and you're not
going to have a machine just write all
the code for you that deals with money
or you're in like an um you know
industrial uh sector where it's the
critical infrastructure or something
like that where you don't like where you
need the human in the loop and or uh
those who you know really want to
perfect their art. So there's like still
some extremely good a very tiny number
of human workers coders who can't be
matched by AI and you know they are
getting paid large sums of money these
days to be like the one big expert in
cobalt or something like that working in
in the companies.
But for the rest um you know the
adoption of agents has led to an
incredible uh output boost and uh
productivity boost and so that's what
I've been focusing uh for the last year
and a half or two which is like how can
I make use of these tools to improve all
of these projects that I'm working on a
lot uh you know a lot faster and also
help all my peers to also get on that
train and basically basically making
sure that anyone in our in our cashier
ecosystem uses AI tools and realizes
that if you're a software developer
today and you're not using AI, you know,
I'm I'm willing to put money on the
table that you will lose your job in 5
years. Like you won't have a job in 5
years. I am 99% sure that this is what
going to happen to most people if they
don't adopt this technology and the
economic realities will force you to do
so. So that that is level two. It has
changed the industry completely which
again is something that I would never
have thought that I would uh experience
this. And um level three now this is the
level that we are currently in. This is
the next evolution of AI agents are
these um proactive always on running
agents, personal AI agents that have a
memory and a context about you that run
either on your own home computer all the
time or on a server somewhere in the
cloud all the time. you're the only one
who has access to uh that one computer
and the agent has its own computer, can
do anything on that computer. And with
that power and with a loop that closes
kind of like tells the agent to work
round the clock and uh with all these
ingredients combined, we've seen what
the future of personalized AI agents
will look like a couple weeks ago when
you know Open Call blew up. And when I
first discovered open call,
I had like we were talking about this
before the recording as you said almost
like two or three sleepless nights just
trying to process what this means. Cuz
when you try a technology for the first
time and then you get this intuition
that oh my god like this is so powerful
this everyone will have this in one
year. This will be everywhere in one
year because it's too powerful. It's
like this chat GPT moment again I think
where you know the first moment you
tried chat GPT you were like sure this
is so this is so um significant that
there is no way this won't penetrate
everywhere. This is how I felt again
with kind of the latest iteration of
level three autonomous AI agents and um
yeah that's that's been on my mind a lot
uh lately.
>> Yeah. And what would you say to people
because I've um been using OpenClaw for
like I was I'm an OG. I was using it
when it was Clawbot and I had to set it
up uh in the cloud via CLI. I didn't
have is it claw or claw.ai?
>> I call it Chloe.
>> Claw. I didn't have claw. I didn't have
like oneclick deploy. So I set it up
like a like a caveman in a VPS and I've
been using it. I've similarly had this
like, holy crap, this is so powerful.
Everybody's going to be using this
eventually, but there there are
naysayers out there like it it it's like
cloud code. Like I I've been using cloud
code and cloud co-work and it's the
exact same from what I understand. Um
what are the differences and what is the
difference between just using cloud code
or cloud co-work
um uh sort of in in a silo versus
creating an open claw and giving it
access to cloud code. Um and and the way
I understand is open claw is like a
harness that really uh adds a bunch of
power to cloud code and other models for
that matter.
>> Yeah. So we definitely have to
differentiate between kind of like
what's the LLM and it can be cla
or ous or GPT or whatever it is like the
brain and then the body which is um the
claw code CLI for example or open claw
so kind of where do you put that brain
into and the biggest difference between
the level two coding tools and the level
three personal agents is the loop Uh
personal agents are alive all the time.
They don't care whether you leave your
keyboard or not. It's not meant to
interact like they're not meant to be
interacted with using that one single
keyboard that you have on your computer
and when you close your computer it's
gone again. But it's rather meant for
something that that is active all the
time can do something in the background
and um as memory about everything you've
done so far. And that is what you know
open call also does. It it it has a
persistent memory. Sometimes it
struggles with that memory but it at
least you know tries to remember
everything that you've been doing. You
can talk to it like a normal person via
chat. So you you usually interact with
it with you know signal, WhatsApp,
telegram, whatever you want. And uh it
can you can tell it to you know every
day at 2 p.m. make a report about all
the activity that has been going on in
this GitHub repository. For example,
this is one of the many examples that we
we're using in our dev organization,
which is we have one of these glories
that basically just tracks our progress
on GitHub and gives us you know daily
reports about hey these are the new pull
requests that were open, these are the
new issues that were open sorted by
severity and these people are working on
that and there's no activity in this
project so maybe you should look at it
or something like that. You know, having
something like that that gives you
automated responses every day, for
example, could be every hour, could be
every every week, whatever you want. It
could be news aggregation, research on
the latest topics that you're interested
in or just something very banal and
related to your personal life. So, um
there are clear differences in the
capabilities between level two and level
three. Uh I think you know it's very
it's very normal that there will be
skeptics about you know what is this
useful for. I've seen many technologies
come and also go where you always have
the same thing. Um and since we're so
new and so early with this technology it
basically the limit is your imagination
right now is if you cannot think of a
way how this can be useful for you then
think a little harder. That's that's
what I would suggest because I'm pretty
sure everyone who deals with computers
and that's everyone as something that
they don't like doing themselves or they
would they would like someone else to do
it like in the background for them and
yeah so so you can probably come up with
stuff yourself. I'll just give you one
uh one anecdote of mine is you know I've
been on a conference and using like Uber
or Bolt or something like that for for
taxi rides. So at the end of the
conference, I need to put all the
invoices together for my accountant so
they can, you know, be properly
accounted for. And I hate that step.
Like it's it's it gives me anxiety just
to think about that little task that I
have to do after every single conference
is download all the PDFs from Uber that
like have these weird file names and
then I need to go into every PDF, take
out the date and rename it and send it
to my accountant. Like these are like a
couple of stupid steps that I need to do
after every conference. And this time I
just like downloaded 15 invoices as a
PDFs and I dropped it over to my Chloe
over signal and I told it like hey you
know just you know look into the PDFs
extract the dates rename the file sent
them back to me and I just could go on
with my life and 3 minutes later I have
I received 15 PDFs back perfectly
formatted in a way that I can just drop
and forward to my account and I'm I'm
done with the task. You know this is
something very personal to me. No one
would build a product just for that
because it's too too specific. But we
don't need to anymore. We have now
machines that can do basically
everything. And um that's just
mind-blowing. And another thing that I
think is know is is something that we're
just getting adjusted to is how we talk
to computers. Something is fundamentally
changing in how we interact with
computers because you know for example
just the the experience of installing
software until now it was either you
know go to a browser download a file and
then click on it go through that setup
blah blah blah and then you have a
software or for if you're a Linux person
you just you know you do it over the
terminal you install it and then it's
there and then maybe you need to
configure it and then you can use it and
you know lately the The way I've been
installing most of the software over for
an AI agent is basically just taking the
link to the GitHub or to the website of
the thing that I want it to use. I send
it the link and say install this and I
just turn around and do my thing. It
comes back after 2 minutes says it's
done. It's working. I've tested it. What
do you want me to do with it? And you
know the I it's it's just it's
mind-blowing
these basic these basic interactions
that hadn't changed for over you know
for decades since the invention of the
personal computer. Everything has now
changed like every single person can now
use basically everything through a
language based interface. And I I think
that is that that's just that's that's
amazing. It opens, you know, so many new
doors and helps so many new people to
use software and be more productive
humans.
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Yeah, it's I mean it's become clear to
me over the last six weeks the form
factor with how we interact with
computers is changing right before our
eyes. Like voice to text, voice to voice
even um is how like I mean a month and a
half ago I would use voice to text for
some things but really not much. And now
whenever I'm on my computer, I'm hitting
option spacebar and just talking for 5
minutes and then sending sending that
prompt or that conversation
to to my agent and then it's just doing
these tasks and it's like we're
projectionists now. We can just think of
something we want in your example of the
Uber receipts for your accountant like I
need that and you can just project it
into reality which is insane.
>> Yes. And and you know it goes even there
there's even it goes even deeper. I'll
tell you just a little story about uh
how how I started working on Bitchat cuz
when I saw Jack uh release Bithat for
iOS initially I was like oh no this is
iOS like I'm I'm an Android guy. I would
like this to exist for Android. Why did
he only build it for iOS? Right? And you
know, we're in times where you can just
do it. But the thing is like I'm not an
expert on Android. I've never made a
real Android app before. And and I've
been I've been searching for, you know,
experts in se in several fields for so
long. For example, we're working a lot
with NFC these days for Cashew. And um
you know try to find an Android expert
that also has uh experience with NFC.
These are like you're looking for
someone very specific and even if you
have the money to pay them it's super
hard to find them and even you know if
you say like okay I'm going to learn it.
So you go out and search for
documentation
and but and every all you see is code
from 8 years ago that hasn't had been
updated or like super old documentation
or PDFs that look like technical sheets
that you really don't like to read but
or or you can't understand or something
like that. It's like even for someone
who is you know a good amount of skill
in a certain field there are blocks
blockers that would have cost you either
a lot of money or time to find someone
who can help you and now I can just like
talk to the machine and tell like can
you please explain to me how NFC on
Android works and it will figure
everything out. it it's the best expert
that you can think of in several like
very specific domains in the thing that
you are good at already. So um it not
only helps you know the uninitiated to
raise their levels and become more
productive humans that can focus on
their lives but also the ones that are
really deep into their own profession
helps them to you know broaden their
scope and figure out things that were
that they weren't able to figure out
before.
Wow, it's truly mind-blowing. And I I
had a discussion with Justin Moon uh a
couple weeks ago about what this means
for Freedom Tech. And since you brought
up Bit Chat, I think Bit Chat's the
perfect example of something that's been
accelerated via these AI tools uh and is
a freedom tech project that found I
think it's safe to say like mass
adoption. Um during the elections in
Uganda um when they turned the internet
off in Iran, when they had the hurricane
in Jamaica, people have been turning to
Bitchat, which you've been working on.
But I think talking about a a broader
topic like how how important are these
AI tools for the pro proliferation of
freedom tech generally and what does it
what does it mean for how we build these
freedom tech apps moving forward? Do you
is it give you more hope that we can
actually win this battle?
>> Yeah, 100%. And interestingly it's it's
a human factor. The answer is is the
human factor at the end of the day
because um with AI what what effectively
happens is that you increase the number
of people who can reach a certain goal
and previously it was confined to a very
small number of people. You need like
the Android NFC Bluetooth expert who has
worked on some project five years ago
and that's why he is the perfect person
to build bit today for example right so
there's the chance of this happening is
just way lower but today we're 100% at a
point where you can build a solid and
well like useful application
with a single person who's motivated
enough to actually pull it off. Right?
So Jack has proven that he's basically
said, I wanted to research how mesh
networks works and he's built this
incredible app. Or another example is
open claw itself. It was built by a
single person. It's unheard of. It's
impossible. There's there's no way in
the world one year ago that this would
have been possible. And today like only
a year or maybe two years into this
technology we've already seen profound
effect profound impact of of highly
motivated individuals who are now able
to execute. I still think you know it
requires some upfront work from you as a
human because it's not like everything
is has now the same
uh same difficulty for everyone.
It definitely equalizes everything. But
still being an expert in a certain
field, knowing what the pain points are,
having all that context that you only
gain through experience, that is what
makes you kind of stand out in the sea
of
uh you know equal
capabilities. And I think that like
that's the move forward is is figuring
out who's motivated and less like who's
skilled. It's more about you as a
person. What are your goals and your
ideals? And if you if you're a person
who's like this a doer who doesn't sit
there and wait until someone else does
it, but you're motivated enough to do
it. Previously the biggest obstacle was
skill and today it's not anymore. And
that's just that's amazing. we we can't
even start to comprehend what it can
change. I believe that software is one
of the most important driving factors in
this in today's world. How we as
humanity progress we see this in mass
adopted software and social media and so
like all these things have a massive
impact on the world today. So you know 1
plus 1 equals two is give the give them
the tools and they will build.
Well, it goes both ways, too, right?
There's a it's a double-edged sword
because it can be used for good and bad.
And so, how do you how do you view that
the that particular nature of this beast
that we're working with? Because it
seems like we're in an arms race to
avoid
>> the digital panopticon and sure that we
can leverage free and open source
software tools that preserve privacy,
sovereignty, and um the ability to
operate outside the the wall gardens. I
mean, it's I'm almost getting goosebumps
thinking back to our previous
conversation in the jungle now because
we're kind of closing the loop and it
had a similar um we talked about similar
topics uh a year and a half ago, but
things were so different back then that
it felt like you know and here's what I
want to say actually about your question
is the good usually comes from the many
whereas the bad comes from the few but
the the bad from the few usually has all
the resources that they need to, you
know, build a centralized social media
platform that conquers the entire world.
So although everyone has improved their
skills, I think it's like vastly
disproportional
in how much it has helped the many it we
are way more people who want to see good
in the world than those who want to see
bad in the world. And we as you know the
the mass of people have increased our
ability disproportionately more than the
large mega corporations who can also now
use VIP coding. All right. Okay. You can
use VIP coding now too. But they were
able to do anything that they want
anyway because of you know large amount
of resources. But this technological
shift has benefited especially those
with uh smaller resources or smaller
teams and individuals. And so my hope
I'm I'm very hopeful because I hope that
I I know that there are more good people
than bad people in the world. And those
good people now have way more tools to
express themselves, to actually change
the world and to show us their vision of
the world and and and inspire others. So
I'm I'm way more optimistic in that
regard than one and a half years ago
because uh we have now the the way more
powerful weapons in uh that we can use
to fight against uh um OP surveillance
or uh repression and like the digital
panopticum as you as you call it.
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And to your point about just figuring
out what your skill is, what you're good
at, for example, like what I view my
contribution to to this space is just
the ability to observe uh and curate.
And so that's what I've been using my
agent to do is just at the media company
is observe and curate. So have it
running all these um cron jobs to
surface information that I think people
aren't getting enough exposure to and
then I can then curate that and put it
in a podcast or a newsletter um or um
share it on social media and it's been
incredibly impactful. like the the
amount of um sort of output that we've
been able to push out over the last
couple couple of months is has increased
I think at least five maybe 10x um just
because we have these tools available.
And so now when I'm thinking of TFTC,
it's like, okay, I want a CBS, NBC, CNN,
Fox News, but for freedom tech and uh
sort of economic
um economic storylines that people
aren't getting in the mainstream. And I
think it's it's um I think it's
successful. We're like two weeks into
this 5day a week newsletter um that
we've been putting out with the help of
our agent and I've got a ton of
response. It's like, hey, I love the mix
of content. I haven't heard these
stories. And so that's been a signal to
me like, okay, these tools are working
for my particular niche in the media
world. Um and I think on that note, it
took me like a few weeks to really like
downloaded Claudebot, started working
with it. And it took me like a week or
two of understanding how its memory
works and basically what it could do
pushing it to its limits exploring the
territory which it operates in where um
after a week and a half two weeks I was
like okay here's how how I can use that
this um but it took experimentation.
Um, the point I bring this up is to ask
you like in terms of like practical
first steps for anybody listening to
this who isn't experimenting with these
technologies like how do you think they
should approach using this stuff?
>> Um, I I want to start with especially
like the security aspect first. So um
you should be aware that using agents on
your computer uh or with your personal
accounts can go terribly wrong. So that
is something you know that's the first
thing you could think about. We're not
at a place yet where you know some
highly polished experience exists made
by you know a large company or something
that is uh fully safe to use. And to be
honest I also don't think that that will
happen anytime you know very soon at
least not very soon because um these
agents are just too kind of powerful to
put them in a box yet. So um so first
what you do is you set it up. You can
set it up on your own machine uh sorry
on a separate machine let's say a Mac
mini is the is the trend or you can also
use a service that runs it for you and
uh one of them is Chloe AI C L A Wii.ai
AI and um there the process is basically
super simple to set up an agent. You
make a subscription, you pay for it
monthly and there's like AI credits
invol included and uh off you go and
then it starts and the next step is to
connect it to one of your like
messengers that you want to use in order
to interact with it. So then you're set
up and you have your own personal agents
that you can ask questions about. And
like what I what I do what I do is think
about things that I wish I had someone
like a like my own personal human agent
basically do things for me. So one of
them could be accounting bookkeeping for
example that's one thing but uh we in
cash we run a large organization as I
said we need to basically have something
that uh can observe progress that is
also something that many people use is
having a bot that just observes things
and writes reports on it and in your
case it can be news for example and in
my case is pull requests and issues on
GitHub for example and um And lately
what we've been experimenting especially
with Chloe uh in order to make our
operation more efficient is to pick off
kind of jobs that we would have hired
someone for where we can you know carve
out some specific aspect where we think
this is safe and nothing can go wrong
there if you automate this part for
example observing something and then
build like a dedicated bot just with
with those skills and and in the case of
Chloe. We run our infrastructure on a
system called Kubernetes. It's a it's a
fairly common advanced provisioning
system where you know the cloud
basically is Kubernetes and um you have
like experts for for that. Obviously
there's like people who know Kubernetes
in and out and uh you can pay them to do
a certain job for you. Uh but you also
now we have these agents that know
Kubernetes really really well as well.
So, and if you plug in a relatively good
LLM into it, say you use Sonnet um 4.6
or even Opus or something, you kind of
you kind of get to a better than junior
person in that specific job that just
works for you 24/7. And that's what
we've been doing. So we have this DevOps
agent that lives with in a in a signal
chat with us and I can ask the the bot
in you real human language hey how's
everything looking you know are there
any problems with our cluster and then
it'll say yeah there are like two two
people whose agents have crashed and
they haven't come back for like 5 hours
maybe you should look at them and just
gives me further hints to any problems
that might have come uh while I is doing
something else. So like this is for our
operation. It's extremely useful already
today and you know I'm just thinking
about let's say you run a factory,
right? So you have a factory with all
sorts of sensors and and and like
monitoring and reporting and all of that
needs to be observed like a human needs
to sit there and look at that data
basically to make use of it. And what
we've been doing so far before AI is
like dashboards. That's the way we we
typically try to condense information.
So it it's useful for us as humans. But
today, you mean you can still do the
dashboard. There's no problem. But you
can also just plug an agent into that
system that can read the raw data and it
will probably come up with like even
better ways to look at the data and
report anything that is out of the
ordinary for you. So, you know, just
this one little thing. Again, we're just
talking about one thing that it can do
that it was not particularly designed to
do, but it does exceptionally well. H
just this one thing is by itself already
huge. Imagine what it means for the
industry. Well, the industry producing
physical goods in real factories. What
it means to have agents plugged in into
their system that can observe everything
24/7 all the time. And that costs
basically no money. I mean you pay for
the LM but the the difference between a
human doing that job and a bot doing
that job is basically no money. So um so
if I can think of like two three ways
how this can be extremely useful for me.
I know there must be millions of ways
for millions and billions of people how
they can make it useful for them as
well. And u the nice thing about these
agents is we don't need to know before
what they're going to do because they're
uh general purpose machines. they can
probably do way more than we think that
they will and they will continue
improving in in the coming months and
years and we'll be just like mind-b
blown for the next couple years. I'm I'm
pretty sure about that.
>> Yeah, that's the crazy thing to to
realize is how this thing is pretty good
right now, but it's probably the worst
it's going to be.
>> 100%.
>> It's going to get faster and better at
doing what it's doing. And you know just
from a software engineering perspective
if you go back to level two right the
agent that writes code for you in your
computer. Right now the flow is you
enter a prompt and then you wait like
couple minutes and then you observe what
the agent has produced. That loop will
become like 100 milliseconds at some
point. You will you will just enter it
and press enter and it will be there
instantly for you to observe and if you
don't like it you can just redo
everything instantly as well. So you
know just the flow of like talking to
the thing and getting something back all
that is going to compress a lot in the
next coming years and uh even like just
the speed aspect just the performance
aspect itself will open unlock new ways
of working with it again.
Yeah, I guess um diving into particulars
of of building um products with it,
whether it's the Cashew protocol, Bit
Chat, um Clawy.ai using the AI to build
that service. Um and now Numopay uh so
it seems like you've been shipping at an
increased clip just observing publicly
and I'm assuming that you're using all
these tools to to do that. I think it's
a safe assumption. Um, I guess let's
just talk about some of the things
particularly at the intersection of of
Bitcoin um, and eCash with the Cashew
protocol, what you've been able to to
ship that's been on your mind for for
many years, I'm sure.
>> Yeah. So, um, I I just hinted towards
NFC. NS is something that I've been
researching for years at this point and
and I'm I'm very jealous about the fiat
world in that sense that tap to pay is
just an incredible user experience and
everyone loves it. People use it all the
time everywhere globally. I remember a
conversation I had with Miles Miles
Sudter from from Cash App where we were
talking about uh Bitcoin adoption around
the world and how we can improve UX for
Bitcoin payments and he told me this
story that doesn't leave my mind anymore
which is he's somewhere in Peru in some
like distant uh isolated mountain
somewhere and he finds this little shack
that sells him a Coke and in this like
mountain somewhere in the nowhere uh the
person hands him over a POS device and
she takes his iPhone and he taps it and
it makes beep and it takes like 3
seconds and the payment is done. And he
said like that made that thing made him
more bearish than anything else with
regard to Bitcoin. And that just
resonated completely with me because I
like that is what makes me bearish about
Bitcoin as well is the user experience
cuz uh if fiat feels so good like why do
you even need Bitcoin? That's many what
many people think how many people think.
So obviously we need to get better in
Bitcoin uh and offer at least the same
experience the quality of experience or
better. And I think we can do better
because we're an open source system and
we can you know where improvements of
one thing help also the other thing. We
don't need to compete. we can also
collaborate and that's what we are doing
with open protocols and and that's the
whole idea about Bitcoin basically is
just we all work on the same thing. So
um NFC I think is a vital part. Tap to
pay just works. everyone loves it and um
in order to build that I needed to get
like all this expert knowledge which I
wasn't able to obtain over the years and
I said like I was actively looking for
people who can help me but found no one
and so forth until um at some point I
think this started all more than a year
ago again with a little project I called
NFC chat and that is kind of a if I
think back it's kind of like a precursor
of bitat
Uh cuz it's like bit chat but with way
less radius and distance. It's just a
simple chat app that you run on your
phone and then you write a message and
you have to tap the other phone in order
for the message to go from one phone to
the other. So it's like a very stupid
simple chat app where you need to touch
the phones in order to send the message.
And I built that as a step towards kind
of NFC payments cuz with cashew and
that's the chin ecash protocol that I'm
working on.
uh money can be sent as a bearer asset,
bearer token. So that means like if you
can package it in some kind of a data
package and you can send it over and
that could be you know uh email or
telegram or SMS or whatever it is any
communication channel you can make a
payment. So I wanted to see bitcoin
payments happening with tap to pay using
cashew by sending the e-cash token from
one phone to another and that was the
first proof of concept I was able to
only achieve because of AI. So I thought
like that's neat awesome that's great.
So this is exactly like the these are
the building blocks that I was looking
for for so long. We have Cashew as a uh
protocol that we can build on that runs
on Bitcoin and with this incredible uh
property that if you can send data you
can also send money right so that's what
cash enables us and at the same time
like I I just should clarify you know if
we deal with money for example you know
the the core libraries of cashew they're
all handwritten because we like we're
not at a point yet where I can safely
just say that the the agent does a
better job than than I do in you know
figuring out what could go wrong or how
you could lose money and so on. So
that's very important to us is the
critical parts are handwritten normal
programmed libraries and that's what
usually a cache library is but once you
have that once it's running once it
works then you can build all the
scaffolding around it by coding like
there's nothing that can go wrong
basically because the library itself
works you know that you won't lose ecash
uh so now let's build an app around it
so we started with this NFC chat sending
around e-cash tokens and and showed like
okay this is possible and then this
ultimately ended like culminated in
something uh in a project we called
Numo. We've been working on this for a
couple months at this point uh in
stealth mode. We haven't announced it to
anyone until like yesterday. And Numo is
our approach uh to to introduce tap to
pay to Bitcoin using e-cash because with
eCash it has this you know very simple
flow of data flowing from one phone the
payer to the receiver the POS device. So
NUMO runs on a normal Android POS. I
have one here. I can show it for
example. This is this is a standard POS
that runs Android but um it can also be
any Android device any Android phone. So
it needs to be an Android phone because
um iOS doesn't allow you to use the NFC
chip in in that way. So the the POS
device itself by of the merchant runs
Numo and then any other phone and now
this can be iOS or Android doesn't
matter can basically just tap to pay to
it and if it runs a cash wallet then the
cash wallet will see that there's an NFC
chip and then take the token and send it
over to to the Ps and why is this cool
because first of all it is it's using uh
eCash generally cash privacy it inherits
inherits this incredible privacy by
default. So this is while the UX is
amazing, you also have the best privacy
possible, which is a great, you know,
combination. Usually you have a
trade-off there. And um, you know, the
the next best thing is that it works
offline. So as a as a payer, so the the
device paying at the POS uh could be
your iPhone, your Android, doesn't need
internet to make that actual payment
because all you're doing is you take
e-cash from your wallet and you send it
over NFC without touching the internet.
So that that also gives you incredible
privacy obviously because you're not
even online. But it also means that it
just works everywhere. And that's again
one point that fiat payments already
have been doing for years that if you do
tap to pay with your credit card or if
you do tap to pay with your phone, it
also works while you're offline because
your phone doesn't talk to the internet.
It it kind of hands something like a
token from the phone to the POS device
in fiat land. And so we're doing now the
same in Bitcoin land, but with
incredible privacy and open protocol.
And so the way it works today is you can
install Numo on your Android device or
on your QS device. It can be any generic
uh QS device and you can set up a cashew
mint. So cash is a custodial system. You
need to trust the mint operator with the
bitcoin that you receive. Um so you set
up one or more mints and then any payer
from any mint. It can be like even if we
don't share that mint, you can still pay
with the e-cash to the device and then
the device will take that e-cash and
withdraw with lightning to their mint.
So anything all the mints are still
interoperable because we have lightning
that glues everything together. And uh
you can receive payments from basically
any mint out there. And we've built a
cool feature into Numu. Um, obviously
realizing recognizing that it's
custodial, there is a there's a rug risk
associated with the mint that you're
using. So, you should only be using
mints that you trust already. Um, but in
Numu, there is a very simple way to say
like if uh we ever reach 50,000
Satoshi's for example, you can enter a
lightning address there and it will just
automatically withdraw to that lightning
address whenever you reach the
threshold. So that way you can build
this POS in a way that the you know the
maximum amount that you put in custodial
risk can be very limited and so uh you
can also withdraw every single payment
if you like but at you know for very
small payments it does might not make uh
sense. Um so we've we've just released
this yesterday. You can find it on uh
numopay.org
orc and download it, check it out and
we'll be working on a GTC pay
integration uh soon. We've already
started working with that. So, it also
worked with existing BTC pay server uh
infrastructure. But if you don't want
that uh you can just download the Nunob
app itself. It doesn't need any back
end. There's nothing that you need to
install or set up. Just install the app,
choose a mint and you're done. So, check
it out.
>> Yeah, I mean I completely agree. I
remember Miles telling me that same
story too. And I think the offline
nature
of the the ability to send Cashew,
excuse me, eCash via the Cashew protocol
offline is massive. You think Miles in
that mountain in Peru like his cell
phone probably didn't have service, but
the secure enclave had his credentials
for his card in he was just able to send
it to the POS and make the payment
probably offline, I'm assuming. Um, and
now we have feature par via
um via eCash now. And I guess what do
you want to see in terms of um like what
or what do you what do we need to see
for this to become more prominent? Is a
wallet sort of integration of the NFC
standards? Um is it proliferation of
just simply more ecash wallets? Um what
wallets work with it now? Like
macadamia, I'm pretty sure I could use
macadamia on iOS. And just to clarify,
for for the iOS stuff, you can pay with
iOS, but running the POS to receive via
NFC is something that you can't do.
>> That's right. Exactly. To receive, you
need an Android phone, but paying you
can do it with any phone. So, um, yeah,
as I said, Macadmia, but there already,
um, we've worked in the background and
we've added this NFC capability to
around like six or seven different cash
wallets at this point. The most of the
popular cash wallets already support
this uh from day one. And u but NUMO
also supports bare lightning. So you
don't need to have a cash wallet in
order to use NUMO. Uh obviously that
would limit the number of people who can
pay with that uh terminal. So uh it's it
supports lightning just out of the box
as well. And you can use any lightning
wallet to scan the QR code. And some
lightning wallets, particularly Phoenix,
can also use tap to pay um for
lightning. So it would kind of fetch the
lightning invoice via NFC and then pay
that over the internet. So it is
compatible with all the wallet
infrastructure out there. But like
generally the thing that um limits
growth in bitcoin today is the util the
not the utility but I want to say the
penetration of bitcoin itself. So I'm
very well aware of the fact that well
our technology can only grow as fast as
bitcoin can grow and when I say grow
bitcoin I mean people using bitcoin not
the price going up. So our ultimate goal
with Numo is to further Bitcoin as
money. That's like that's our main
northstar goal for everything that we do
is to support the adoption of Bitcoin
for everyday payments around the world.
So um the infrastructure for that
is being built out and there are great
projects out there. For example, we've
noted we've noted etc pay server. So
anyone could could already use some form
of onchain payment or lightning payment
with several existing solutions out
there. But um what's I think what's most
needed today is is kind of a penetration
in real economic transactions and we
need more merchants to use Bitcoin and I
think that Cash App is doing an amazing
job there. I should say Square uh to be
more precise is Square is doing an
amazing job there. There's BTC map that
you can use to find merchants. Um
there's obviously BTC pay server which
is the most popular kind of web checkout
system that the Bitcoin ecosystem has
produced. And so these all these
projects help towards the same goal. And
we now support that effort as well using
uh NUMO and our you know NFC capable
payment systems that we that we built.
If you want to support this in your
Bitcoin wallet, uh what you can do is
first of all look at all the NFC specs
that exist in Bitcoin. You can read
liking invoices by NFC. If your app
doesn't support that yet, think about
integrating that. If you want truly, you
know, the the tap to pay offline instant
experience that Cashew can give, then
you can also just plug in a cashew
library into your Lightning wallet and
and pay with eCash for that single step.
It doesn't even need to be a
full-fledged casual wallet. You can just
like that single one step that you want
from Bitcoin to ecash. You can also do
that in order to support tap to pay. So
there are a couple of wallets working on
that. And generally speaking, I think as
a community, as a bigger project in
Bitcoin, we need to um help get Bitcoin
more onto the radar of merchants and and
hope and drive the adoption of real um
brick and mortar stores. So that's
that's what that's what we want to
contribute to.
>> I completely agree and thank you for
your focus on this. It's funny too cuz
uh when we last recorded I think I asked
what your archetypal cashew user was and
you said uh a woman in the jungle
selling selling mangoes and I think uh I
think with Numopay and projects like a
BTC pay server I think that's going to
proliferate
obviously what Square is doing here in
the United States for their merchants I
mean merchant adoption because of
Square's roll out at the end of last
year went literally parabolic I think
there was something like uh 2500
merchants on BTC Map. There's probably
more than them um in the United States
that haven't put their um put their
store on BTC Map.org. But um I think the
way Square rolled it out and Cash App in
collaboration with them rolled it out.
They automatically added all these
merchants and went from like 200 to over
6,000 over the course of a month,
>> which is great to see. Um,
shifting gears back to this intersection
of AI in Bitcoin and particularly
Cashew. I mean, that's a big topic of
discussion right now, particularly in
our world. Um, and in the fintech world
as well, is a agents using using
payments on the network uh, excuse me,
using uh, payments with each other to to
complete tasks on behalf of the humans
sending them out to do things. And
>> I think it's a wide open landscape right
now. I think you have Visa, Mastercard
working on their own protocols. You have
Stripe. Then obviously you have stable
coins, Bitcoin over Lightning. I saw
that the guys at uh at Arc Labs launched
um the the ability to receive stable
coins and automatically turn them into
VTXOs
via their ARC protocol implementation.
And then obviously we have ecash and um
cash specifically with the nut 402
protocol. And I think you've made the
case that due to the sort of error
nature of eCash and the fact that you
can send the file that it's actually um
the most efficient way for agents to
make payments. Is that correct
characterization?
>> Yeah. So that was just like from from
our experience what instantly worked. It
it was extremely simple. It was almost
shockingly simple to teach an agent how
to use Cashew cuz we basically told him,
you know, here's your CLI and the CLI it
will produce cashew tokens and you take
the token and do something with it
depending on what you're doing and
instantly got that and because you know
you don't have this get an address here,
check your balance there, send uh sign
and send um you have these packets of
data that the agent can simply send in
an HTTP request for example. So what
today you know like getting back to the
original um question or the the idea of
402 payments or agent payments I think
it's a very hot topic today we're still
yet to see how much of that sticks
because we're in this like discovery
mode of agents what should they do how
much money would you give them how
dependable are they with the money that
you give them and so on there are
stories out there of an agent like
sending a random stranger
350K or something because he he backed
him online and the agent made like a
single mistake and the person who owns
that agent lost a substantial amount of
money due to that. Uh cuz they were kind
of you know trying it all I guess. So um
how much of that really manifests we
will see but it is clear that the the
big ones and I you you mentioned them
the big fiat one uh the big fiat
monsters like Mastercard and Visa and
also Stripe are looking into it. So what
frustrated me a lot looking at this is
that the 402 idea uh the the idea that
we will have services online that ask
for money. So you want kind of your
machine to be able to pay another
machine is a very Bitcoin driven topic
has been a Bitcoin driven topic in the
last years you know for the last
whatever 10 years or so. The only people
who talked about this were Bitcoiners
cuz we we always thought of ourselves
and still think of ourselves as the
native currency of the internet. So
obviously the connection there is pretty
direct and um there's been development
from Lightning Labs on L42.
Um we've been contributing to 402 with
uh X42 and Cashu payments. The Albi guys
have been working on this as well. So,
it was kind of only this niche topic
until the agent came a couple months ago
and then you saw Coinbase working on it,
Stripe working on it, uh the credit card
providers working on it because they
they all seem to agree that you know
payments of machines to machines will be
a thing and the the rails that they uh
that they market or or want to see being
used are usually stable coins and stable
coins stable coins have the benefit of
feeling um more natural to people. I
think I think like the cognitive leap
to use a stable coin is way smaller than
uh the cognitive leap to use Bitcoin cuz
the stable coin is denominated in the
same currency that you already use. So
it feels like you're still just doing
the same thing but now in a kind of a
digital way or something. So the stable
coin people have been have been pushing
really hard to make sure that the agents
of the future will use uh USDC or USDT
or whatever it is. Uh obviously I'm I
don't want to see that future happening
because I I think you know it just
furious fiat system and stable coins are
inherently trustbased and there's all
sorts of problems uh with that. you you
need KYC to get in and out and all these
problems with civil coins that Bitcoin
doesn't have. Bitcoin just is born on
the internet and lives on the internet
and it doesn't leave the internet. which
stays inside the internet. And so uh
that's why Bitcoin is still the native
currency of the of the internet. And uh
several projects in the Bitcoin space
have been trying to you know also rival
this new trend and make sure at least
that we're that we're up there with the
others and uh can show that we
um you know that we that we show up and
that we're ready to compete with them.
And uh one example is is the art
protocol that I think is is a fantastic
idea to to use. I I've checked it out
already and it works really well. And uh
another way of doing it for you know
even smaller transactions and high
frequency transactions
is just amazing for it because it's
basically instant basically free and uh
with insane privacy. All of these
factors I think are super important
especially in an agentic word world. So,
um, eCash is just something that that
that works really really well with with
agents.
>> Yeah. And particularly in a world where
the subject of ID verification on the
internet is becoming more prominent, I
think the ability to opt out and have
these
internet native options that don't
require KYC at the edges like stable
coins are are imperative because it
seems like the the digital ID
conversation is definitely beginning to
pick up again.
>> Every stable coin is permissioned. All
of them can be turned off if they don't
like your digital ID.
>> Yeah. Um I want to be respectful of your
time because I know I pinged you uh in
the afternoon yesterday to do this and
you were gracious enough to do this last
minute, but to end it uh love getting
philosophical with you last year when we
spoke. Uh you really dove into how you
view yourself as an artist in the
digital world and I think um what you've
done since then has proven that to be
true. But thinking about the
proliferation of these AI tools and
humans beginning to interact with these
at an accelerating pace. Um what are
your hopes for the future? Obviously the
the meme of the permanent underclasses
here, the meme of the singularity and
Skynet having been launched already uh
and we'll only recognize it in
retrospect is beginning to permeate.
What what is your view for how these
tools affect our humanity?
Oh, that's a that's a big one because um
so first first I'll start with my craft
and I hinted towards this already in the
beginning of our conversation today but
it's been it's been amazing to watch how
things can change and in a way and in a
pace that no one would have predicted.
the the
penetration,
the proliferation of AI in society was
always predicted to have uh the most
negative influences on you know the old
kind of manual job markets and the
plumber and the robots will come and
they everyone will lose their jobs and
so on which I think is still a risk but
I wouldn't have like predicted myself
that programmers would be the ones who
are affected first or even the most and
I think probably will be the most. So we
are at a time you know zooming out that
software engineers had this incredible
run in the last decade or two and make
astronomical sums of money and still
software engineering you know the the
salaries associated with it kind of like
still detached from rest of society. So
we have been seeing a decoupling
of the what you just you know maybe
called the permanent underclass and the
the Silicon Valley uh upper class but I
am you know I what I see is what's
happening right now is changing that
drastically and I think that's maybe for
the better because uh software
engineering has never changed this fast
before and has become just way more
accessible to many many more people.
It's not this exclusive skill anymore
that you have to acquire yourself by
decades and decades of working on your
own and acquiring you know all these
special skills that you can then use to
find a job for example. So what I just
uh every software engineer out there who
still didn't get it, I just want to say
it again. You will lose your job in 5
years. You're you're done if you're not
using AI like I'm I'm sure of this and I
cannot say this about like another job
category just yet. So I think it's just
a
um let's say let's see it's it's ironic
that today's in today's world the
plumber and the carpenter
and you know manual labor folks are I
think more valuable than ever before and
have more security about their jobs than
ever before relative to the rest of
society. So that is something to think
about. Uh it's just it's almost
beautiful to see it happen this way. And
at the same time, you know, getting a
bit more philosophical on this is when I
when we last talked, I spoke of software
engineering as something like an art
form where if you have the energy to
produce and you have the skill, then you
can really affect the world with your
ideas, which is ultimately how I think,
you know, what what drives art itself is
finding ways to materialize your
thoughts.
That can be a book or a painting. Uh but
it can also be software. And
although you know we're we're in this in
this renaissance of software
development, we're seeing that the you
know the brush really doesn't matter as
much as we thought it would anymore. So
the the the the manual part of it is
just completely changing. But that means
that the rest of software development is
becoming more important. So now now that
everyone can write software or those who
can write software before can write even
more software. Software just becomes
kind of like this disposable
artifact of your activity. So what
matters now is why why do you do what
you do? And that makes things a bit more
complicated as a human to figure out why
you do something or what you should be
doing. What's a good thing to do? You
know, what makes sense to do those
require completely different set of
skills to figure out good answers to
these questions than just like learning
Postgress and and and C and whatever.
Right? So now you now it's about ideas
and execution. Some people say taste
and aesthetics.
Um, but I also think about communication
and marketing and trying to explain to
people
why you do certain things and why they
should be interested in it. So all of
these like way more human things
and uh way more soft scale things are
suddenly at the center of software
development
and so I think that is just that's
that's the reason why everything is
going to change and it's changing right
now. So we might see a new wave of of
software. We might see a new wave of
cyber culture emerge because because of
these changes that we're experiencing
right now.
>> Yeah, we may find that uh all the fears
of our humanity being stripped from us
are actually completely wrong and the
technology forces us to explore our own
humanity and bring it out via our
creative endeavors in the the world of
projectionist software.
There's this idea that you know
um it's popular in this universal basic
income circles about what do you do once
you have everything you need? What do
you do if you don't have the work
anymore? And
it forces us as humans to really answer
that question. I think that question is
important whether UBI has arrived or
not, right? whether everything is fully
automated or not. You should be asking
yourself this question like 10 years ago
and today you're forced to ask that
question. If you're a software engineer,
you'll literally forced today. If you're
not a software engineer, you'll be
forced in like 5 years to answer that
question, maybe in 10. And the good
thing is that we're getting more
prosperous as a society. Hopefully, at
least we can hope. I mean, if we if this
doesn't turn into a dystopia, but the
good news is that we'll have more time
on our hands, more life quality on our
hands to think about the more important
questions like who do we want to be?
What is the goal of all our actions? How
do we want to live in a society? What
what should this world look like? So,
there's room for there's room for new
ideas and it's the most exciting times
to be alive.
>> It really is. It really is. And I'm
happy that uh you have that perspective
as somebody I respect in the world of
software development. It's great to see
that you're optimistic about this. Uh
thank you for all you've done. I mean
from Bit to Cashi Protocol now pay
claw.ai making this aentic world more
accessible for other people who I think
should be experimenting with this. It's
uh it's insane to see what you've
shipped and since we last recorded. So
keep it up brother.
>> Thank you. And I want to forward all of
those great words that you just shared
with me also to the team uh which I you
know which did most of that work and we
are a great developer team with
incredible people who are working on
cashew day and night and we all just
want to see Bitcoin uh succeed. And I
also want to you know use this dance to
talk to the people who are listening out
there thinking you know what should I
do? How can I help? How can I help
improve
uh this world we live in is I you know
this is a a
uh Bitcoin is a free and open source
system that lives off the contributions
of people like you and if people don't
choose to work on Bitcoin Bitcoin stops
working it will die so I hope that you
know there's at least one person out
there who thinks like I've been a
software engineer all my life and I'm
fed up with this job and I want to do
something else to consider you consider
becoming a Bitcoin developer and help
with you know help us with uh driving
these freedom technologies forward
because uh no one else is doing it.
There is no one except this circle of
people that we've talked about trying to
counteract
uh the the the massive growth of
surveillance technology and centralized
control and uh so if you feel that you
need or you can change something in your
life and you you want to contribute your
energy towards something good please
please join us and become a Bitcoin
developer become a cash developer look
at chat, look at all the other projects
that are out there and and contribute.
>> If not you, then who? Ally, it's been a
pleasure, sir.
>> Likewise. Thank you, Marty.
>> Peace and love, freaks.
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