Jeffrey Epstein, Prince Andrew & Fergie: The Untold Connections

Hey everyone, thank you for joining the Tara Palm Mary show and the red letter for everyone who is watching this on Substack right now. Um, this is uh a great treat. I am speaking to Andrew Lowey. He is a journalist based in the UK and he is a biographer of Prince Andrew. He had a book that came out earlier this year, a few months ago, about the Duke and Duchess of York. That's Prince Andrew and his wife Fergie. You know her as Sarah Ferguson. She's often known as Fergie in the US. Um, and as with everything related to the Epstein story, there is scandal all over it. Right. Before Andrew Low's book was even released in the US, Harper Collins had to make edits to it. Let me tell you what I found um in the book seller. Harper Collins confirms editing several passages of Andrew Low's best-selling Prince Andrew biography. And this came reportedly after Melania Trump threatened to sue Hunter Biden because of connections she made because of connections he made between Melania and Jeffrey Epstein. Hopefully our author will jump on the line and explain that even further himself. But, you know, there has been a lot of news right now out of the UK. And and by the way, for everyone who wants to um you know, to read this book. It's called Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York. And it's a part of a trilogy. Andrew Lowi has been um he's a British historian and he's an author of books about the royal family and he's really zeroed in on on Prince Andrew and has alleged that the royal family has allowed someone who has conducted in criminal behavior as we know he had to settle a civil settlement with uh Virginia Grey uh over over alleged sexual abuse. Um and so this is a huge deal. He lost some of his royal titles, but not all of them. He still holds on to a number of royal titles, but the book really goes into deep detail into the friendship between Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew and his wife Sarah Ferguson, the Duchess of York.

Now, the reason that I reached out to Andrew is also because someone just so happened to be sitting next to him at a dinner table and said, "Tara, why don't you reach out to him?" um there's always some scandal around the Epstein story and this book and you know he actually had to have passages from his book edited um and so I think that's a really big deal um that publishers are so afraid right now they're so stifled by free speech not just ABC News you know not just the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal which have been which have to deal with lawsuits from you know from the White House, from Trump himself. Um, you know, that also that also applied to ABC and CBS, which settled with President Trump. But publishers, book publishers like Harper Collins, um, a book published in the in the UK. They are afraid of of freedom of speech in here in the US. And that is why um, parts of Andrew's book had to be edited out. And the only way for you to read it is for you to go to the UK yourself.

Now we have our guest on the line. I know there are some difficulties. Thanks so much, Andrew, for joining. Not at all. Pleasure. Nice to talk to you. I'm sorry about uh the the technical difficulties, but it's all good. Thank you for joining. Um, I gave our listeners a little bit of a briefing on your work that this is that this latest book entitled um is a part of a trilogy that you're a historian and that you've been you know doing extensive How many interviews did you do for this book by the way? I just got into it last night and it's fascinating. Gosh. Well, I mean I did quite a lot when the book first came out in August and then we've had clearly a new a flurry of interviews since yesterday because of the revelations with Fergie. So, I don't know. I've probably done 20 since yesterday. Oh, no. I mean, interviews for the book, like how many did you do? And yeah, well, I would think uh probably about 300 in the end. I mean, all the people I managed to identify and I've continued. I had two interviews yesterday. Lunch with someone uh who had been an ambassador and uh someone who worked in the palace I I had a coffee with yesterday. So, the research continues and in fact many people come forward since the book came out. uh willing to talk or not real, you know, people I hadn't actually been able to trace. So, it's been very exciting. Yeah, that is always um that is always the interesting part about doing journalism is once the piece is published, how many people see what you've been working on and then they come forward and start talking to you and and then I'm sure it will lead to the the next book. But I I do before we even get started, you know, I was talking about how parts of your book were edited um for the United States and so can you tell our listeners in the US what parts of the book were edited? What did they allege and and why they were removed before publishing in the US?

Well, actually they're edited in for for Britain. Uh there was some stuff on it was all mainly Trump. Uh it was talked about how Epstein had basically had a relationship with uh Melania before Trump. In fact, Trump had had um uh first made love to to Melania on on one of Epstein's aircraft. Uh and Trump didn't like that. There was also uh conversations between Trump and Andrew which came from some someone at the consulate British consulate about how they just did locker locker room talk. uh and Trump went after the news core uh and they decided though you know I I was able I was very willing to stand my stuff up. I went back and checked my sources. Absolutely accurate. But everyone was folding in front of Trump. Uh the Daily Beast I think did something uh clear the Wall Street Journal which is part of News Corp had had um had bended the knee and I think the feeling by the lawyers was it was easier just to take the stuff out rather than have a fight which was really took us away from the essential story and there were other there were other connections time consuming expensive and so that was fine. Uh so that came out the British edition. Yeah. And there was another connection between me and right in the book. Uh no, I think those were the two bits. It was um I think that was the main the main two things. And then Harry popped up uh claiming that he hadn't had a fight with with Andrew. And again, we just took that out. it was it was an incidental thing uh which was put in at the last minute really because out of a cur curiosity by my editor. So uh those are the only changes but by that stage I think about 60,000 copies have been printed. So uh it's not exactly a secret um and I suspect there are an awful lot of people who who've read read it and and probably would have passed over it uh if Trump hadn't drawn attention to it. Yeah, it's just a it's a it's a wild moment that we're living in right now. As someone who has been a historian for so many years, have you ever did you ever think that this would happen to your work? Uh well, they're always, you know, you always have to make concessions. I mean, clearly it's more difficult with a living person. There all sorts of rules of privacy and and liel there, right? Uh and I think, you know, much more difficult, particularly with royals, people are not talking on the record. They're often NDAs. So it does make it much more difficult to you know with documents though they're not always accurate at least you've got documents you can quote. So this was a departure for me. Um, you know normally I I do work with documents. Uh, but they're all documents now. Everything's closed. I tried to get access to the files on Andrew as a trade envoy which should be public. Uh, and so it's a very different book to the ones I've written in the past. And clearly you're one's touching on very sensitive subjects. I mean this kind of uh you know goes to the heart of the royal family and and uh argues that there's corruption you know amongst some very senior royals.

Yeah, I do want to get into that but first I want to talk about the latest news uh this these leaked emails. Um they just seem to keep dribbling out and I and I think everyone is sort of wondering um how these emails are are leaking. I mean do you think it's a hacker? Do you think um it's the Epstein estate? uh you know the latest email just for everyone is um it shows that Sarah Ferguson known as Fergie uh the former D she she keeps the title Duchess of York right um after their after their divorce um she was Prince Andrew's wife um that she apologized to Jeffrey Epstein after um she publicly called him a pedophile and regretted having any sort of relationship with him. She She went so far in her apology that she called him a supreme friend. And for people who are unaware of this news, I'm going to I'm going to read off the um I'm going to read off what exactly she read she said to him in her apology. This is after Jeffrey Epstein spent time incarcerated for procuring a minor for prostitution. Okay. He was a sex offender. I know you feel hellaciously let down by me from what you either told or either what you were either told or read and I must humbly apologize to you and your heart for that. I did not absolutely not say the P word. She's means pedophile and I saw all my children's work disappear disappearing. So basically she's apologizing because she said she was worried that her children's work would disappear and she's an author of children's books, right? Um so this was you know obviously and in these emails she kisses up to him even more calling him a supreme friend weeks after she disavowed him publicly. I mean what do you make of all of this?

Well I mean I had this material actually. I mean, you raised a lot of questions and in fact, I was able today to to do a piece in the papers here showing how she continued to actually stay at editing properties for several years after she claimed to cut out all contact. Uh, where these emails are coming from is a good question. I mean, we've had 18,000 that Bloomberg had, which led, I think, to Peter Mandlesson, the British ambassador to to the States having to being sacked and now these disclosures about Sarah Ferguson. So it could be hackers um uh it could be the estate. It it's it's a mystery but it's certainly giving uh you know legs to the whole story. And if this drip trip goes on then you know clearly we've got some big revelation coming. Uh, you know I don't buy u Ferguson's sort of explanation here is someone who claimed that she was being threatened with defamation by Epstein and she was scared of him and yet as you say she's writing to him in pretty ausive and friendly terms. Uh, and I'm afraid what I found with my research was that what she did in public and what she did in private were very different. And she thought she'd probably get away with this. Uh, and it just points out to the sort of double standards of cynicism which she operates. You know, she's been championing various children's charities. Uh, and yet, as you say, she seems to be turning a blind eye to a man who uh was abusing young women and she must have seen what was going on. She stayed on a regular basis at the empty homes. uh she couldn't have been unaware of what was happening and I'm just amazed that the authorities haven't called her in for questioning as a material I believe and this was also after Virginia Jafrey made the allegations against her ex-husband right this email was sent uh I I'm not aware of exactly when Jeffrey made the allegations against her she made the allegations in 2010 2010 really gosh Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I think as we begin to look at the the timeline and we begin to get these releases, uh, then, you know, the whole thing looks, you know, much murkier than people realized. I mean, one of the things that both Andrew and Sarah did was they kind of laundered their reputation by professing to be supporters of these children's charities. Andrew actually was a spokesperson for uh uh something called the NCCC, which is a British charity for the prevention of cruelty to children. And yet here they were. Um, uh, certainly Andrew involved himself with abusing young women. Uh, there was material which I couldn't put in the book, but about 15 year old girls, for example. Everyone dismisses him, you know, saying Virginia was 17, it was fine. But actually, there were much younger girls. Uh, and I suspect there is more to come out. uh you know when if when and if the Epstein files come out and they haven't been too heavily weeded that may may may give us some new leads there.

Where do you think these emails are coming from again? Well, I don't know. I think you know the two things that you suggest the Epstein estate and some sort of hacking is is is possible. Um uh you know has has stuff been shown to Congress and someone in Congress is leaking it. Uh I mean what was interesting is that the Fergie material was written was shared between the son and the man on Sunday. Uh the woman on the son who's credited is uh Dafany Barrack who previously done an interview with Gileain in prison uh was actually muted at one point to be ghosting Andrew's uh memoirs. So someone was clearly very good connections to uh to the Yorks. Uh but clearly this is not a leak that's been very helpful to them. So um there's stories that the palace are founding the story that they're actually basically hanging Sarah Ferguson out to dry as a way of protecting Andrew which seems to be a rather strange theory because all it's going to happen is just draw more attention to the Yorks. Uh and if material comes out in Andrew they'll just come after people go after Andrew as well. So uh who knows? But, you know, the story is is is is developing each day and we may have some answers soon.

So, in your book, you write that Andrew and Fergie borrowed from Epstein. They borrowed money. How much do you think they may have borrowed from Jeffrey Epstein? Well, the figure I was told was 2 million pounds. I certainly don't believe the figure of 15,000. them. Uh, you know, that wasn't they didn't deal either of them in such low low sums. So that's what they admitted to. They admitted to 15,000 to be clear. Correct. Yes, they admitted £15,000. And also, it wasn't clear what the money was for. Was it to pay Johnny O Sullivan's tuition? Was it to pay his wages? Was it to pay Kate Bodington, the PR woman's uh uh wages? Um, was it to pay other debts? Um, was money paid to the children? She as she she talks about thanking him for supporting her family. Um, you know, she has a lot of questions to answer. Uh, and she's clearly being very silent at the moment. Uh, which, you know, I I would argue is pretty suspicious.

Okay. Um, I wanted to ask you also about how the how and when were Sarah Ferguson and and Prince Andrew first introduced to Jeffrey Epstein? I mean, we are uh Prince Andrew said it was through Gad Maxwell, right? But you write that they've known each other for much longer than people think or know. Can you sort of give us a timeline of their friendship? Well, it's very difficult. So, a friend of Galileain who talked to me um uh who uh said that it was the 1980s when Elaine was at Oxford. I think it's very unlikely because they were in different circles. Gain herself said in the interview she did recently that it was Sarah Ferguson who introduced her to uh Andrew. And that makes much more sense. Sarah Ferguson and Galain were sort of big figures expatriate in the expatriate community in New York in the 19 in the mid 1990s I'd say. And that makes much more sense. Um, but um, you know until none of them are actually people that you can really always believe what they say. uh and they're each trying to shift the the the to each other. Uh the line from Alistister Watson, who was Andrew's private secretary, writing to the Times was that Andrew met in 1991. That was the line Steve Hoffenberg also put uh who was one of the people involved in in Epstein's Ponzi scheme and went to prison for it. So uh but you know, in the 1990s, Andrew was still in the Navy. Uh he did have long periods where he was out and about. I found he was operating in Kazakhstan for a time for example. Uh, but there no real references to Andrew and uh Epstein certainly in newspapers or even talking to people. So there's a bit of a gap there. He does he but they certainly were emerging in the late 1990s. Uh we have Andrew on the Lolita Express in the beginning of 1999. But you know again it's unlikely you would be going to spend time on the island uh if they'd only just met. So it suggests the relationship was had been going on a little bit of time and certainly Sarah Ferguson had been on the Lita Express in 1998. So you know we need more information. Wow. That's interesting that she would have been on the Lolita Express before him, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh uh I think it was only to Miami or somewhere. So she it's still unclear whether she went to the island. We know that she went to to the house in Manhattan. We know that she stayed in the the flats with Marquetsteino and around the corner. We know that she went to to the Palm Beach home. Uh but again, I have no evidence that she went to to the ranch. Um and you know, the people who would know are clearly keeping quiet. Um unfortunately, you know, the the the staff who work there, right?

I I like this passage that you write in the book. You say that Andrew was easy prey for a rattlesnake like Epstein. Epste played Andrew. The prince was a useful idiot idiot who gave him respectability, access to political leaders and business opportunities. He found him easy to exploit. Um, and you said that uh that Andrew was his Super Bowl trophy. And this was someone that you're quoting, Stephen Hoffenberg, who was Epstein's former partner partner in a massive Ponzi scheme. It was a $400 million Ponzi scheme. Um, and so it's interesting that that you wrote wrote that. So what what was the nature of their relationship? How would you describe it to people? Well, I mean, what Andrew gave Epstein was respectability and status. I mean, he was invited to Buckingham Palace to to Sandringham to Bal Moral. Uh, and I think Epstein had this belief that he was actually going to, you know, be some sort of financial adviser to the queen and and other members of the family. So uh and Andrew of course also gave Epstein very useful contacts. He'd been the trade envoy for 10 years between 01 and 2011. Uh, and for Andrew uh Epstein offered again contacts people might not have been in touch with and he admitted that in his Newsight interview. He offered him a ready supply of young women. Uh, and uh he offered him basically someone who would who would pay a lot of Fergy's debts. Uh, so you know it was a mutually uh beneficial relationship for the two of them and they were very close. I mean I I think I quote saying that they were sort of best buddies. They were both sex addicts. I mean I think Epstein said that um uh Andrew was even kinkier than he was. Um so they were sort of blood brothers in many ways in the way that Epstein was very close to to Trump. Same sort of interest, money and women. Wow.

And and just for everyone who's maybe hasn't been following the Fergie story, uh I found that a few people on my team didn't even know who she was. Um why did she have so many debts, can you kind of explain her story? She sort of fell into disrepute in the UK like Prince Andrew and then had to go to the US to launder her reputation. Maybe you can tell people about that. Yeah. So Sarah Ferguson uh separated from the Duke in uh 1992. They got divorced in 1996. She had to sort of though she was actually given quite a generous settlement uh much more generous than she claims. Uh she was a very extravagant person, had expensive stuff, expensive rents. She traveled uh on conord. Uh she was always buying things. She s expensive hotels uh though had expensive holidays. And so very quickly she fell into debt and she needed people to pay off those debts. and she had a whole series of uh either rich boyfriends or people who were brought in to to to try and help her with these debts. Uh and I think clearly she was vulnerable to someone like Epstein who had plenty of money and was prepared to uh to to give her money. I mean a lot of these things were meant to be loans but she never of course repaid them. So um you know she was in some ways one of the vulnerabilities for for Andrew. I mean Andrew I think came in in December 2010 to persuade Epstein to to to pay off some more of her debts. The queen had paid off millions of pounds. Uh eventually got fed up her out. Uh and I think there were other businessmen uh a man called David Tang uh who's now dead was supposed to have have paid a lot of debts. So um you know she was a real liability. Um, okay. Uh, and but she saw that we're easy pickings here. But as you're right, she came to the States. She re relaunched herself. She was seen as a bit of a hero that she had fought against the palace establishment, that she presented herself as a victim, went on Oprah, made a lot of money. Someone who's done that before, Megan Markle. Well, exactly. I mean, Meghan Markle could learn a lot from Fergie. I mean, she's Yeah. Right. Fergie's been a much more successful Meghan Markle. Um so but lots and lots of perils and of course lots of perils between Harry and and Andrew as well. The same you know structure of the the military which had kept them on the straight and narrow being abandoned when they when they broke loose both marrying women which were totally unsuitable and led them into to real problems. Both very stupid men who didn't always follow the advice they were given. So very interesting parallels there. So but Fergie to her credit you know did relaunch herself. She did make large sums of money, but the problem is she was never making enough money to cover her overheads. Yeah.

Um, just for people who have just joined the the live, I want to tell everyone the name of this book. It is entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York. I'm told that you actually can't buy it in the US right now. Is that true? No. The background to it is I I had a major US publisher um uh who was due to publish exactly the same time as the William Collins edition and they pulled the book a few weeks before publication without really giving any proper justification and I was forced to uh self-publish the book is the only way to get it out at the same time uh through Amazon. So you can get the hardback uh or the ebook and there is actually an audio done by Blackstone. Uh but the problem was that I'm not very technical. Uh I was given a corrupted file by the British publisher and as a result the edition that came out which has been corrected and I hope there no more problems uh wasn't formatted properly. So the book is there. I think you can also buy the British edition. Um I think it's slightly more expensive, but actually it's a lovely edition with full color pictures uh and uh four sets of of plates uh over 60 pages of of pictures. So I mean that's the one to buy. So it shouldn't be impossible through third party sellers to get the book. Um and this book, by the way, already had to be edited. But there have been attempts to frustrate this book instead. Yeah, this book already had to be edited because of what you wrote about Melania Trump in the book and Epstein. Yes. Well, that that request came several weeks after the book came out. So, there there there are a lot of copies out there from the first edition uh which before they before Collins changed it. So, um uh you know it was a pretty pointless gesture. But yes, the book should be um uh you know should be fine now. If anyone's got any problems, they can they can get it rerefunded and replaced. Uh, and I am talking about the possibility of bringing out another edition either next summer updated or even as soon as sometime before Christmas because the events are moving so quickly. I've got so much new information uh that the book I wouldn't say is out of date, but there is a lot more that can be added to to it now um given given what's been emerging.

And you mentioned that you have a lot of photos in your book in the UK version. So, President Trump denied knowing Prince Andrew, but you say that there's extensive photographic evidence and you write about Prince Andrew's trip to Mara Lago. Can you describe the relationship between Prince Andrew and President Trump and this visit to Mara Lago and and just how long their relationship goes? Yeah. Yeah, well the relationship uh I think the pictures in my my logo are 2000. Um it's a relationship that continues to this day. He could have even gone to the state banquet the other night. I mean he was certainly involved in Trump's previous trip here. Uh, and it revolved um around uh uh basically playing golf. Uh Andrew would play golf with him. Uh when Trump came to Britain uh Andrew was designated as the sort of royal to deal with him. But they, you know, would turn, for example, talk about uh Trump's, uh, Tumbbury golf course, which he was keen to develop. Uh, and Andrew actually is the Earl in Veness, which is that part of of Scotland where the Tumbbury is. Uh, uh, it was a very close relationship. They had these locker room conversations where they would swap the masser lists of who they recommended. Uh, uh, they would talk business. I suspect there were business opportunities that they discussed. uh Andrew would have met him clearly in his work as a royal as a trade envoy. So it it was a pretty close relationship. I mean a real buddy buddy relationship uh in Mara Lago uh Andrew met all sorts of women there uh through Trump. Uh some woman who he met there he actually supposedly have taken to the island. Oh okay. One of them is woman called Gerald uh Gerald Beck. Uh and so yeah very very close connections. I mean Trump is trying to distance himself as he is from lot his connections with Epstein but the three of them were were were real chums. Okay. So they were friends.

Um, you know, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the win-win situation in the friendship between Epstein and Andrew and how Glenn Maxwell facilitated introductions between Andrew, Epstein, and very powerful people and how even the queen benefited from this. Yes. Well, I mean, you know, Andrew picked up some useful contacts as a trade envoy. He was taking Epstein on some of these trips. uh we don't know exactly which trips because all the files are still closed. Uh, but you know he was you know taken to royal residences. He we we don't know if he met the queen but he certainly hoped to meet the queen and thought he would act as I say as her business adviser. Um, and uh again you know there are so many gaps in the story it's difficult to know exactly what was going on. Um, but uh it's clear that that the two of them were helping each other. Um, in terms of their business projects, uh, Epstein was clearly, uh, Andrew was in New York a lot, and often staying with Epstein. He would take him to the consulate, he would take him to meetings that were being set up for for trade opportunities. So, I mean, big big advantages to Epstein to have his link with Andrew. Uh, and of course, EP was flying Andrew all over the place, as we know from the Lita Express. Um, but you know the queen certainly supported what Andrew was doing. I mean she was entertaining some of these despots with whom he seemed to have business relationships particularly in the central Asian republics like Aabaijan and Kazakhstan. Uh, and these were places I suspect that Epstein went. I mean this was the wild west. There were big opportunities for oil and gas. Uh, and uh I suspect that that Epstein was involved there. But um until we have more openness about royal finances, particularly Andrew's finances, which were all offshore through nominee accounts, uh he had a Chinese bank account. You know, it's very difficult to know exactly what was happening um uh between the two of them.

Was where was it possible that Andrew was passing on information to Epstein um and Golen to various intelligence agencies or the other way around? where um you know Epstein where Epste and Glenn took information from Andrew and his and the dignitaries and the world leaders that spend time with him and then pass that information on to intelligence agencies. Is there any sort of connection between the intelligence world and this friendship? Yes, I mean that that's what I what I understand. I mean several people. So for I mean there were plenty of honey traps with with Andrew. He was caught, you know, filmed in bed with women. uh possibly women he shouldn't, you know, younger women. Uh we know that did that and we know the t tapes are picked up by the FBI and and and Mark Dugan took some of them away to Russia. Uh I I had a contact in in Russia, a man called um Tim Riley who talks about the compromats had. This is a man with strong intelligence links. There was a Kazakhstan businessman who said it was standard practice for the Kazak intelligence services to film people to offer the prostitutes and then to film them. Uh and certainly my contacts said that you know the intelligence agencies in the Middle East particularly Mossad but also Libya um uh China uh and other countries would certainly have had compromat on Andrew. What he was able to give is difficult to know. I mean he worked in the Ministry of Defense. Uh he would have picked up he could have lunch or dinner with anyone he wanted. He could have picked up information. Uh and uh we know that Epstein traded in information. That was you know one of the things he did. So, uh, it's it's very likely that Andrew either wittingly or unwittingly gave information to Epstein, which he was able to pass on to to intelligence agencies and governments and people who shouldn't have had this information.

Do you think Epstein was was passing on information to multiple intelligence agencies and and like the FBI, um MI6, MSAD, and that's why they all found him to be useful? He was sort of like this hyperfixer type guy who could just gave information to everyone and that's how he remained protected. Yes, I think that's very likely. He would have, you know, he would have been a very useful contact for all of them. You know, he would have certainly been debriefed even if he wasn't, you know, on the books. Uh they they he would have been a very useful asset for them and they may well have tasked him with jobs uh um to to get information from people. I mean you know his range of contacts was extraordinary ranging from you know prime ministers he was close to to Tony Blair uh he was pretty close to to to Mandles who was a very important figure at the time in British politics uh we had uh Barack and and others. So uh you know it makes sense that that that they would contact Epstein and Epstein realized that he could he could trade this information for useful for for favors. Um, and clearly if he compromised people, uh, then that put him in an even stronger position.

I, um, I did a, a podcast on this. Um, I had some reporting about, um, his his bodyguard, Igor Zenovia, Trump, uh, sorry, excuse me, Epstein's bodyguard, Eigor Zenovia, going to Langley, the CIA headquarters, and spending time there while Epstein was incarcerated, while he was spending time in the prison in 2008. not prison, excuse me, county jail, and he would he took a binder from um the CIA and and brought it back with a note to Jeffrey Epstein. And we know that Jeffrey Epstein had various um meetings with um Burns who was the deputy secretary of state at the time. And we know the secretary, State Department and CIA often work very closely together. Um, so, uh there are a number of connections. I reached out to the CIA and I asked them, you know, you have a log of everyone who has ever entered Langley. Do you have a log? Do you have Igor Zenovia in that log? And they just never got back to me. I mean, we had many exchanges of emails. We spoke over the phone, but they just refused to tell me. I think it would have been a very yes, easy yes or no question. Did this person enter the grounds? And this is um all information I obtained through uh a lawyer for Jeffrey EP a lawyer for one of the victims, Brad Edwards, who's very well known um who spoke to this uh this bodyguard, Egor Zenovia, who I've tried to reach out to, but I've been told from other journalists who speak to him that he was credible, but he's gone underground. So, yeah, there is a lot of different angles going on here. Do you think there are any other intelligence angles that we might be missing when it comes to this relationship between the crown and Epstein?

Well, I know that British intelligence were certainly monitoring Andrew. In fact, they were monitoring Sarah Ferguson and some of her connections. She had uh connections with a with a Texan called Steve Wyatt whose father was involved in trading oil with during the Iran Iraq war. So, I mean, they were clearly keeping an eye there um on on on Wyatt. I suspect they were watching her and others. Um, and certainly the police protection officers would have been doing that. They would have been liazison with the intelligence services. But we we also know I also know from some of the people I've talked to that they were watching Andrew and his activities in the Central Asian republics. They were concerned about the people he was um engaging with. And actually uh there's a story of him taking a $5 million uh bribe from uh someone in Kazakhstan uh and uh the intelligence services reporting this to the British authorities and in fact to the royal household uh and nothing actually being done about it. So I mean there clearly I think there's there's a bit bigger picture here and all we can do is begin to try and put bits of the jigsaw together but there's still large parts of this jigsaw which you know need some more pieces. Uh, but it's it's clearly a much bigger operation than I think people have realized. And, you know, I'm surprised that more names haven't come out. I mean, it's always the same names. Um, so it's um, you know, this story has a long way still to run, I think.

Yeah. No, I I think you're right. It's amazing that the crown would know about this, but it seems like he was being controlled by just a very simple honeypot operation. I mean, do you think that Vladimir Putin was involved in some ways in this? because this seems very KGB. Well, the KGB had trained uh the Central Asian uh republics. So, uh absolutely. I mean, they would have known everything that was going on the central uh Asian republics uh which he spent a lot of time in and he I know he was entertained, you know, by prostitutes and girls who were brought to him. Uh I think Putin uh we know that Mark Dugan seems to have passed some of this FBI material to a very close associate of uh Putin. So it's it you know will be Putin could see it if he wished. So yeah there's a lot of compromising material and one of the mysteries is the stuff hasn't surfaced yet but you know maybe that we're now beginning to get these email leaks maybe we'll begin to get various pictures but it sounds like you know whatever uh pressure was being put on let's say Andrew seems to have uh meant that this stuff hasn't come out that he somehow has h has provided whatever information they wanted. Um, so as long as he pays bold, maybe the stuff won't come out.

Yeah. Um, I guess I wanted to uh ask you a little bit more about the photograph of Virginia Ju. Um, do you know more about that? Um, the circumstances of how the crown tried to cover that up, how they said it was doctorred? I mean, what was the reaction when that photo came out? I'd like to just know more about like the PR around that. I just feel like the royal family has botched every moment of this in terms of public relations and of course they have. Well, I mean, you know, they they maintain and they have various sort of acolytes who maintain that, you know, this is a fake document, but I think I go into it in some detail in the book. I mean I show that uh Virginia Jeffrey was tracked down by Sharon Churcher, a journalist who found her. I mean Virginia Jeffrey had gone up the ground. The man the photographer who went and took these pictures, Michael Thomas, talks about them literally being pulled out of a shelf. There were various copies. He he um uh that he made. He photographed them front and back. He had the Walmart sign on the back. Everything fits with with all the logistics of her going there. um the fact that she took it into Walmart three days later, it wasn't possible at the even when the story broke to to forge documents like this. Forensic experts looked at the pictures. We didn't have photo shopping like that then. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Now I mean one the original was taken to the FBI and that one is the one that's so-called missing, but the FBI certainly must have done their own test and don't haven't disputed it. I I also talked to a woman who who hasn't appeared in the story, I think, from any other writer, a woman called Sandra White, who was sent uh as a male on Sunday journalist, actually a friend of mine to mind Virginia Jeffrey. Spent weeks with her. Said she was an entirely genuine person. I mean, none of this was Yeah, she was a lovely person. I spent a lot of time with her as well. She was very credible. Incredible. I think actually she held back a lot of what she knows to be honest. Yes. Would it be very feared? She feared that people wouldn't her life was so horrific. I think she feared people wouldn't believe her if they knew everything. Well, let's hope you know some of that stuff may have found its way into her book because you know clearly you know a lot of pressure was put on her but you know that's exactly I mean everyone says who's worked with her. I mean we owe her a lot because without Virginia Jeffrey most of the story wouldn't have come out. No. Uh and you know she paid a heavy price for for her her her openness. Um, but you know, Sandra says, you know, that that she got to know her. This was all entirely genuine. And, you know, these people, you know, Victoria Harvey and others, you know, make all sorts of claims without any evidence and and all ridiculous things about how the picture was doed. So, I I you know, and and and the case against Andrew and and even just against Virginia Gifrey and Andrew, you know, depends on so many other factors apart from the photograph. I mean, there's email correspondence with Andrew and and Galileain discussing how they deal with Virginia Gifrey. This is the person they claim never to, you know, had any contact with met. Was all over the flight log. So, yeah.

Well, exactly. I mean, we have, you know, we have the stuff there. So, and, you know, the other witnesses have come forward. We we've we've um, you know, there's just so much evidence that supports her story that couldn't have been put together and faked. You know, it would have taken a giant conspiracy. No one has ever seen uh the picture that is supposed to have been used to to do the fake picture. Um, and you know Andrew and uh Gileain have repeatedly been shown to to to lie. So you know who are you going to believe? Virginia Gifrey who clearly got some facts wrong uh in a highly traumatized way working with a ghost writer who perhaps didn't understand the full story remembering things that happened many years before when she was pretty traumatized. and these two characters who brought in PR firms to try and denigrate uh destroy Jeffrey you know uh you know if anyone looking at it in in an outside in a reasonably dispassionate way it's pretty clear that there's absolutely no case uh to be made Jay Beecher I understand is is going to produce a book but a lot of this stuff is focused on um u things that you know no one disputes that Virginia Gifrey herself, you know, having been a victim was drawn in to the sort of Ponzi scheme for recruiting girls. So, you know, there no surprises there and this was pretty standard practice. You know, you compromise the people that you victimized.

Yeah. Who I didn't know about the book either. Who is it that's writing a book about her? Guy called Jay Beecher who's been doing lots of research. Uh, he has, I understand, an intelligence British intelligence background. um uh he seems to be very close to the Maxwell family and a man called Brian Beat Basham who has a long history of representing the as a PR man the Maxwell family. So, you know, there is an agenda. So, it's going to be a piece. Yeah, it's going to be to I I didn't have a doubt about that that they would try to do that. I I actually traveled around the country with Virginia and knocked on doors of people who were in connected to her relationship with Epstein and her time there and the abuse. And I I you know I've seen I've seen up close what you know who this woman is. Um and sadly spoke to her before she died. Um because I mean one of the re sorry to drop one of the revelations of the book is the fact that there had been a major investigation into Virginia into Andrew and Virginia Jeffrey by a BBC program not News Night but Panorama uh and the producer Laura Burns. I don't know if you have met her, but she traveled around doing exactly what you're doing, uh, you know, in 2019, meeting people, interviewing them, doing an interview with Virginia herself, collecting, uh, documentation. I mean, a very thorough, um, investigation. Uh, and this was the investigation that the Bucking Palace wanted to shut down, which is why they kind of moved their move to News Night who'd been asking for a completely different sort of interview. And and agreed to go with them because they thought it would be a slightly easier gig. So, you know, and we remember, of course, Amy Roback and ABC, I mean, being being told that if they, you know, ran any investigation, they would not be given contact with the royal family. you know, big attempts to to shut this story down for many years, years during which, you know, Epstein and his merry men, you know, abused many young girls. You know, these people should, you know, I have to say look at their consciousnesses again about, you know, how they behaved and how they protected these men.

Um, I just want to ask you before we wrap this up, and thank you so much for all of your time, by the way. I really appreciate it. And for everyone who just joined in late, I just want to give you the name of the book entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York. As we know, it is right now being self-published in the US. You can get it on Amazon. Um, there were various hiccups in this, including a decision by the publisher to remove reference to Melania Trump and and

Jeffrey Epstein. So, as with everything, there is pressure on publishers, on independent authors, um, and we are being held back all the time by lawfare, especially in this very litigious and this story with very powerful people involved. But I just want to ask you before we wrap up, do you think there's any other correspondence between Fergie and Epstein that might come to light or might just reveal the relationship that they had with, with, with Prince Andrew, the Crown, um, you know, Sarah Ferguson herself? Like, do you think there's more that's going to come out in the Epstein files?

Uh, absolutely. Uh, and I know there is. I mean, in fact, I'm in touch with a close friend of Sarah Ferguson's who is, I'm actually going to talk to you after we stop speaking, uh, who has a lot of information about this and actually talks about criminal activity. So, uh, I'm going to have to find out more. But, uh, you know, people are coming out of the woodwork. So, uh, who were involved in the story, know the principles. So, absolutely. And I mean, even if the Epstein files have been weeded, you know, I think there will be things there. There's still legal cases where material could be unsealed. Uh, uh, so, uh, and, you know, victims are prepared to give their stories to politicians, to talk about them on the floor of the House. So, I think there's a lot more still to come out.

Uh, I, um, you know, um, but, but, you know, what people, the work of people like you, and that's why it's such an honor to talk to you. I mean, have really opened up this whole story. And in some ways, it's great that we all talk to each other. We, we, we, you know, collaborate and share the bits of the puzzle that we've, we've managed to find because, you know, there is a lot, I think still, I think you would agree, still to uncover.

Yeah. No, this story is never ending. It really isn't. Um, and you're right, it feels like we're grasping for bits, but and that there is a trove underneath it all. We're just at the tip of the iceberg. Um, and I think even our worst fears are likely even worse than you think. There are a thousand victims according to the FBI. How many do we really hear from? 20 maybe. Because the ones that were really young, they don't want to speak. You know, it was so traumatizing for them.

Yeah. Well, also a lot of them were people, you know, young girls bussed in from Russia who didn't even speak English, who've gone back, no one has any contact with them. And Thailand, exactly. A great center for all this. I mean, a lot of them are now married women with children. Clearly don't want to revisit it. Some of the victims I've talked to are so traumatized they don't again, don't want to visit it. Uh, you know, they sort of rebuilt their lives and kind of compartmentalized this. So, you know, it's going to be very difficult to get stories. And of course, you know, the police don't always treat victims in a very sympathetic way. We just had the, we just had the FBI director say he's never read the victim's testimonies. We just had the man who crafted Epstein's sweetheart deal say that of the, um, 80-page prosecution memo that he was sent recommending 60 counts of indict, 60 indictment counts, that he did not read the pro, that he did not read the victim's testimonies but decided that he thought that they would not be able to stand up in court. It's, it's disgusting. Um, yes, hear from the victims. They just don't want to hear from them. That's just what this is the world that we are in right now. These women are not credible. And this is where we are in this post-MeToo time where the stories of women are just not credible. Even though they have tons of women with identical stories, they are not credible. Not credible to men. Those are the words of the FBI director. Not credible.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the great thing is that, you know, they've tried to suppress this story and each time, I mean, they're digging themselves in deeper and deeper for the authorities because, you know, people are coming forward. Clearly, those the witnesses who went to Capitol Hill were very credible and I think the, the vast majority of the public, you know, do want this swamp to be cleared. They do want justice for these women. They do want people to be brought to account for what has happened and as you say, it is a huge, huge problem. Uh, and, you know, it can't be stemmed. I mean, I do feel myself, the dam has been breached. Uh, and, um, uh, justice will be done.

I hope you're right. Thank you so much for your time, um, Andrew, and I hope, um, everyone will go out and get his book, as hard as it is to get it. You know, when we push through those barriers and we support independent journalists who have to self-publish to be published in the United States for a bestseller in the UK, um, you know, we have to support those people. So, go out there, buy his book, tell your friends about it. Um, it's important that we support journalism. And thank you to everyone who is listening to the show. Um, I appreciate it. You are keeping me able to continue on my work despite all of the, you know, people who would like us to just go away.

Well, thank you. It's been a real privilege to talk to you. Thanks so much. Have a great day. Okay. All right. No, that's that was great. Thank you so much. And you know, thank you for so kindly promoting the book because, yeah, I, it's had