Inside the Mind of an Avoidant Woman: Dating, Motherhood and Business

A lot of men when they deal with an avoidant woman is they call them selfish. It's completely opposite.

I get called selfish quite regularly. You know, avoidant people get called a lot of things quite regularly. Yeah. It's easier to leave instead of working through these problems.

Okay. But what I've come to learn as I've gotten older is you're just picking up someone else with different problems. It's the same game. It's the same game. The target is to build a secure relationship that would allow two avoidant people with avoidant tendencies to become more healthy, secure people.

If this relationship doesn't work out, I'm telling you right now, Adam, I'm single for the rest of my life. I would just like to let you know. Welcome back to I Wish You Knew. I'm your host, Adam Lane Smith, the attachment specialist. And today I have a new coaching client joining me named Carly. Carly, welcome to the show and how can I help you?

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here and excited to work with you. I would really love to learn more about my avoidant attachment style and see how I can maybe better be better in my relationships and be a better mother to my children.

Okay. Okay. Now, I don't get to meet very many avoidant people at the beginning of our work that are like, "I'm avoidant." Just like fully embracing that. Where did you learn that you were avoidant? And what's the, uh, what's the feeling there?

I would say that I recently recognized that I was more avoidant. Probably after the relationship with my kid's dad.

Okay.

Um, in that relationship, there wasn't a lot of conflict. And I, looking back on it, I realized that was probably a red flag or a concern. There should have been a little bit more conflict and I guess communication on things that we didn't agree upon.

Um, looking back, I definitely took a step back and decided to internalize those feelings that I had or repress those feelings that I had instead of expressing them to my partner. And so, I've realized that I am more of an avoidant type of attachment. And I would really love to learn more methods of communication to navigate the feelings that I have or, um, thoughts that I have while in a relationship.

I love that. A lot of people, and I'm glad you're here. A lot of people ask me, Adam, are there avoidant women? Do they exist? And if so, what do we do? How do we talk to them? Am I an avoidant woman? So, this is going to be very helpful for the people at home.

Yeah. And one thing I've realized, too, is a lot of men when they deal with an avoidant woman is they call them selfish. And so I would really love to learn your distinction between being selfish and being avoidant.

It's, it's completely opposite. It's not even close to the same, to be honest with you. And I say that biased with most of my best friends are avoidant people. So it's, it is what it is.

I get called selfish quite regularly. So.

You know, avoidant people get called a lot of things quite regularly. So we'll go through that here today.

Perfect.

Um, with avoidant pieces, I, if I have an avoidant woman, I always double check for quiet disorganized first, just in case. Quiet disorganized is usually characterized by having the presence of anxious tendencies, lower self-esteem, very poor boundaries or no boundaries at all. Anything like that for you?

No.

No. Pretty good boundaries.

Very good.

Okay. Interesting. When you say there was no conflict in the previous relationship that you had then, if you have good boundaries but no conflict, what does that look like?

Um, I think it had to do with his personality style as well and his attachment style. So, he was probably an avoidant as well. So if there was any conflict in the household, we both did. We just didn't talk about it.

I can come back up in various situations, you know, something would be triggered and one of us would maybe say something, but then when our emotions got too high or that threshold was met, we would just walk away from it instead of really diving deep into it and understanding each other. I have this image in my head of both of you looking at each other saying like, "I love you," and then like a long pause, and then one jumps out the window, the other is slight, right, like running from the room.

Yeah. The moment it got uncomfortable in any sense, we both were like, "Yeah, it's just not worth it."

Just done.

Yeah. We're just done. And that's why I ended up leaving him, honestly. And that's something I've dealt with my whole life is it's easier to leave instead of working through these problems.

Okay. But what I've come to learn as I've gotten older is you're just picking up someone else with different problems.

It's the same game.

It's the same game. So, what kind of problems do you want to deal with?

Okay. So, that was one avoidant man. What have, uh, are you with anybody now?

I am. So, I have a boyfriend now. He's also an avoidant.

Also avoidant.

Probably worse than the last one, honestly.

Okay. Um, but out of all the, and all the problems that I've picked through and found, I've chosen to take on his problems and I'm sticking around and I'm confronting a lot of emotions and feelings that I've had, um, with him directly and we're working through things together, which has been really, really great.

So, he's working with you. He's, he's, he's managing the avoidant.

We're doing really well. We have conflicts. We have fights, but they're healthy and we're expressing, you know, how we feel, what we need, our boundaries that we have.

Interesting.

And it's, it's come a long way. It's been about two years now, and we've learned a lot about ourselves. We've learned a lot about each other, but there's still so much more that we need to learn. So, I would love to get some insight from you on that.

Absolutely. Okay. Prior to, so two avoidant partners. Prior to that, did you date other avoidant people? Was it anxious people chasing you? What was it like?

Anxious people chasing me, for sure.

Anxious people. Absolutely. So the avoidant is an upgrade.

It's an upgrade.

Okay.

Yeah.

What made you decide to want to go with more avoidant? If if you decided, what made you decide to want to go with more avoidant partners? Were you just tired of the,

Anxious people were too easy. It was, it was in a sense, I knew what they wanted. I knew what they needed, and I felt like I was running the show.

Okay. And as I've gotten older and after I had children, especially, I really wanted a project in a sense where I, I didn't know exactly what they needed. I didn't know exactly what they wanted, but I was willing to take the time to try to figure it out with them. Um, and with my, with my kid's dad, I didn't have the tools or the resources to really navigate that yet. I knew I wanted to be with him. I loved him very much, but we were both avoidants and we both didn't know how to communicate our wants or needs.

Okay. Now, with my current relationship, I've gotten a little bit further with my tools. I, I have a better understanding of what exactly I need and what I'm looking for. Um, but I didn't want to just have it all figured out with the anxious attachment style people, if that makes sense.

It does. It's an interesting phrasing because I need to not have it all figured out and I'm looking for someone that I can learn about. Is it, uh, the men that you, the, the anxious male partners that you had previously? Did you respect them?

No.

Yeah.

Absolutely not.

Correct.

I walked all over them.

Correct. Correct. More avoidant partners. Are you able to have more respect toward?

I have to. Otherwise, they'll leave.

It's required.

It's required.

Is that an element of what you're looking for right there? When you say, "I want to not have it all figured out." Is it the respect piece? I need to have somebody that I respect, or else I will walk all over you.

Got it.

Yes.

That is a good thing. I like this. This is actually a very good positive piece in that moment.

Okay. Okay.

Out of space.

No, I'm with you.

I'm very, very interested here now. This is a good puzzle to solve. Uh.

So with avoidant tendencies, what I often find is yes, the avoidance of conflict, but also just a, a general, often a general lack of awareness about what goodness is available to you in a relationship. Has that been a bit of a mystery for you with an avoidant partner? Do you guys maybe not know what to do, how to get closer, or, or is closeness lacking?

Absolutely. The intimacy, the vulnerability, um, has definitely been a topic of conversation. Um, not necessarily in a bad light, but more so, "How can we grow it? How can we make it better?" And I would really love to better understand how we can grow in those areas.

Okay. What if I tell you you have to spreadsheet it?

Okay. I like spreadsheets.

You like spread. Okay. This is good.

This is good.

Well, this is good. So, um, a lot of people do ask me, Adam, is it possible for two avoidant people to get together? And if it is, is it possible for it to work? And I say yes to both. It's just that when you have an avoidant person and an anxious person, the anxious person is so obsessive about chasing that there never has to be an intention about keeping the relationship going because one person's, they feel like they're, work for you.

100%. It feels like their life is on the line if they don't. So, they're obsessive about it.

Yep.

Too, too obsessive, actually.

Yeah.

When it's a secure partner, they'll at least track it. M. They'll talk to you about it. They'll flag it. They expect a certain level, and if the level isn't hit, they'll come and talk to you about it. So the target is, is not for two avoidant people to be together forever. The target is to build a secure relationship that would allow two avoidant people with avoidant tendencies to become more healthy, secure people who actually know what they want and are able to track it. What we'll need to do ultimately for success for long term is to get you to a place where you know what it should feel like, and use the sensory data, and, and your partner should know what it should feel like and use that sensory data. And if either one of you feels a discrepancy about where things should be within a certain range, one or both of you flag it, and the other person is committed to coming back in and making it work. That's ultimately what has to happen is we have to keep it within a parameter.

Okay. Now the problem that we will have to track, we'll have to be mindful of this. That's all. We have to build a system is when stress hits for both of you, both of your tendency will be to just pull back and not notice the lack because you're going to be focused on achievement and survival and and pushing forward.

When we're both stressed, we pull back and we're both extremely critical of each other.

Yes. Those are going to be the danger points for your relationship is the stress points. That's it's going to be, I don't want to say lifelong, but it's, it's going to be something you will always have to track. To make this work lifelong, you guys will have to have functioning systems that kick in not just when you're stressed out, but are continuously running and tracking.

That makes sense.

That's going to be the weak point for you guys.

Yeah. What you mentioned about the sensory inputs or outputs. That's something that we both struggle with is really being able to feel those sensations, I guess, on when we are connecting and when we are getting close to each other because our mind is running so rapidly with all these walls up and, you know, objectives and we're planning, and it's hard to really sit in that moment, feel present, and feel those sensory feelings to connect. When I work with a lot of avoidant men, they have a big liability because their prefrontal cortex overdevelops and it squashes their emotional expression. So they can't even, I was going to ask you, they can't even feel their own feelings. Now, sometimes women have more of a natural attunement to their emotions anyway. So, it doesn't squash completely. There's still a little bit of feeling there. Do you still have some insight about your emotions and feelings during stress states?

The number one thing when I feel feelings, the number one time is when I feel disrespected.

Okay?

If I feel you're talking down to me, if you're condescending towards me in any way, that is when I get triggered emotionally.

Any other way though, it's very easy, quote unquote, to maintain my emotions and not necessarily react to them. One thing that I have found quite often is that when a woman has avoidant tendencies, she tends to look a little bit more like a robot to other women, more like a Terminator robot sometimes with a single focus and a very mission focus, but not get swept away by emotions as often. Right. The, the crying, the upset feelings, the, "I need to feel like a priority" is usually not there.

Not there at all.

Right. Right. It's, "Let's survive and let's get through and be practical." The, the emotions that, uh, a woman with avoidant tendencies will often get swept away by are, "This isn't going to work." And no one can convince her otherwise. She gets that idea in her head and it's like, "No, here's 17 reasons why it will work." She's like, "Nope, nope. All of those are fake," and she's ready to leave because the stress is compelling her to get out.

Everyone tells me I have a very black or white personality. I'm either all in or I'm all out. Um, and that translates into my relationships. Like, either I'm in it, we're going to figure it out. But the moment I have a feeling or I've convinced myself it's not going to work, we're done, and you'll never hear from me again.

That's one thing we're going to have to give you an option for. Not change, not take away, but we're going to have to give you, we're going to have to give you a failsafe because that won't always function the way you want it to. Sometimes that will go off at the worst possible moment and will disconnect you from someone that actually does would legitimately give you a good second chance. Well, my kid's dad is a perfect example. Not saying I want to be with him or I miss him, but it was a failed opportunity is how I like to say it. He was great in so many ways. He's a great father. He has so many great qualities. Um, but I definitely did not give him the fair chance that I should have, and I walked away from that because I had convinced myself that it wasn't what I wanted or it wasn't what I, what I needed.

Do you have any inkling about what would have been necessary for you to give it an actual legitimate second chance? Do you have any frame of concept for how to do that?

It would have taken a dual effort, for sure.

Yes. Okay.

Yeah. He would have had to be a little bit more emotionally in tune as well. Okay. And receptive to the boundaries that I did state or the feelings that I did say I had. Um, and he just unfortunately was not there yet.

Okay. Hypothetically, let's not even say him. Let's say, let's say there was a hypothetical situation, not even with your current. Let's say there's an imaginary partner out there. He's avoidant. You're avoidant. And he does something and it pushes so far that you eventually click off.

Mhm.

If he came back and repaired with you and said, "Whoa, Carly, I've realized I was way out of left field there. That was inappropriate. That was, that was not correct. Here's an exact plan of what I'm looking at to make a change." Would you be willing to actually give this a second shot?

Absolutely. And that's why I've gotten so far in my current relationship is he does that.

He does that.

He does that.

Okay. And he's leading those repairs.

Okay. So, that's a big difference.

Yeah. And it's taught me how to lead those repairs, too, in other instances when I make mistakes.

Have you ever clicked off with him where your brain's just 100% and it's able to click back on?

Yeah. I love this. Okay. This is good. This is good, cuz some people have a, they almost can't click out of that, that mode. So, that's why. Okay, this is good, cuz that's one liability removed that they don't have to work on. This is very, very good. I like this. Okay. Um, oxytocin.

Mhm.

How familiar are you with oxytocin?

I mean, I have a degree in biology, so a little bit, but not, not probably to the levels that you know it as.

No, I'd say you're pretty good there. That's that's pretty good. Um, oxytocin with your children. Where are you? How are you at there giving giving oxytocin, feeling oxytocin?

We connect with my children. I connect the best through playing or doing activities. So if we're going out and about, if we're having new experiences, if we're learning new things, that is how we feel most connected.

Okay. So some vasopressin and oxytocin blending, which is good. That's good. Um, snuggling with your kids.

I get overtouched very easily. Yes.

Okay. And how old are they?

I have a three-year-old son and a five-year-old daughter.

Okay.

And I think when they were babies, I loved it. Yeah. I loved the newborn phase being touched, like breastfeeding, all of that I loved. Um, but as they get older, it's a combination of the sounds, their sticky fingers, oh, yeah, and all of the things, you know, the TV playing in the background, the stove cooking, all of that sensory input is a little bit much for me with the touching. And so, I get overtouched quite easily.

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Yeah. When they were smaller, did you have more of a close relationship with their father? Was it a more peaceful one?

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

So during that time, he was, you had less cortisol in your system and ideally more oxytocin from him.

Yeah. It was too easy though. Like I was a stay-at-home mom. He was a provider, and it was boring. It was so boring. I actually hated it. I will never be a stay-at-home mom ever again for the rest of my life.

I hear that from from avoidant tendencies. It feels like death. It feels like death. I feel like I'm sitting in a prison cell, basically. Uh, and when you have a partner that's avoidant, not giving you any type of conversation to like deepen the relationship or any type of connection that way, it's really hard. Um, but yeah, it was peaceful in a sense where we didn't fight. We didn't have any issues. I had a soft lifestyle, if you want to call it that.

But but an impending end coming as well. You weren't safe because the intimacy, the trust wasn't there. All of those components weren't there. So, you knew it was about to rupture.

It, it just wasn't enjoyable. He was very trustworthy. He was very loyal. Very, um, great person. Great person, but it just wasn't fun. And I really thrive on adventure experiences. I'm a dopamine addict for sure.

Okay.

So, it was just boring to me and I, I actually hated it.

Okay.

Yeah.

I hear that. Vasopressin bonding is going to be a lot more important to you in pretty much every aspect. And my current partner, you know, he's a founder. He is very successful entrepreneur. He's, uh, goes out, explores, travels all the time. He's just like me in so many ways, and that's what I love about him.

I hear that.

And so I really needed somebody to really live and enjoy life with me.

Got it. I feel like I understand quite a bit about you now. This is, this is a good thing. What would you like to change? You got time to pick my brain. What would you like to change?

I would love to understand, um, so something that my partner and I both say pretty frequently is that we need space. I would love to understand the difference between needing space and utilizing that space as an avoidant tendency.

Yeah. 100%. Okay. And it's, uh, I am, I'm struck by the avoidant, uh, tendency to intellectualize everything. Of, I would like to understand, not, I would like to change. I would like to understand. Very intellectual. Um, generally speaking, space usually, yes, has two different features. One is I need time to recharge. Recharging alone, it's more what we would call an introvert. Very few people are actually real introverts in our modern world. There's there exist, but but most of what I see is people that are massively burned out, exhausted, overstimulated, and they struggle to have conversations, and they think they're an introvert, but it's actually the attachment piece. The problem with with avoidant tendencies is being on to a hypervigilant level. It's almost, I mean, it is in the system, it's a trauma. It's being hypervigilant to everyone's mood, everyone's word, everyone's thought, everyone's action, every facial expression, every little moment, microchecking for any risks or any challenges or any problems or any blips that come up. And you can only really turn that off when you're not around other humans.

H.

Is that tracking?

Yeah.

Okay. Usually that's not me.

That's not you.

No.

Okay, that's good. Was that you prior?

I don't think so.

Okay.

No, I think I'm very aware of my surroundings and my environment, but it's not coming from a trauma standpoint. It's more so just observing so I can read the room better and utilize that to my advantage.

Okay. No, I hear that. No, no, realistically, that that's very practical. It's very realistic. When we have, when we have low oxytocin levels, we do tend to be a lot more mechanical in our thinking. We're a lot more strategic. Some people would say Machiavellian, but I, I think strategic is a smarter word. Right? It's not, it's not usually intentional to be hurtful or or exploitative in any way, which is just strategic, careful, and strategic and tactical. That's all. Is that a better description?

Definitely.

Okay. So, more strategic, more tactical, and more thoughtful there.

Okay. Um, are you able to turn that off when you're not around people? What is, what is good about being not around people for you? Why does that feel sometimes good, so good?

I don't like being alone.

You don't like being alone?

No, I'm, I'm very much not a homebody. Um, I like to do things constantly. I'm very adventurous, very spontaneous. Love social events, love being around people. Um, my social battery does get low talking sometimes. I think most people.

Yeah. Humans. Yeah. But I love being in a room with people.

Okay.

Yeah.

So then where is the space? Do you, do you need space in your relationship? Is it your partner that takes space?

So when his emotions start getting heightened, for example, or he starts expressing how he's feeling, I need space because I feel overwhelmed, not being able to compartmentalize or understand exactly how he's feeling. And so I need space to step away and try to understand his perspective before I add any input.

Why?

Um, I don't know. It's like my brain feels overwhelmed or it, it's not even sometimes my brain, I don't feel empathetic during the situation sometimes. And so I want to step away to try to understand his perspective better before I add my input because I don't want him to come to me with feelings and me not being empathetic or me not being able to understand. I don't want to dismiss those feelings. And so I'll say, "I need space to step away to really think about what you've said so I can better understand what you're feeling and I can, you know, compromise with you or add some type of insight on how I could do things better next time or."

Okay.

Um, so it's not coming from a place of necessarily like wanting to get space from him. It's wanting to get space from that emotion, I guess, if that makes sense.

From your own emotion.

Yeah. What, what is your, what is your brain or your nervous system afraid would happen if you didn't?

I would probably lose my mind. I would probably either go off on him because I'm frustrated that I'm not being able to understand him.

Get super like mad, or I would get super mad, or I would get very, um, annoyed, I guess, in a sense, and it would come across as dismissive, I think.

Has that been you in prior relationships?

Oh, for sure. Absolutely.

You did some damage in prior relationships.

Image, for sure.

So you've learned not, so this is a learned behavior.

It's a learned behavior. Yeah.

Stop that.

Absolutely. Yeah. I, I've learned to just walk away instead of pouring out all of those feelings in a situation.

Okay. To me, that sounds good, to be honest with you. Um, there's two types of taking space. One is to regulate and the other is to dodge. Mine is to regulate, I think.

That's what I'm hearing. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. It sounds like you, you reach a point where your sympathetic nervous system activates because his, his emotions are right here.

Mhm.

And you don't know what to do about them. Yes, your empathy does turn off.

Yeah.

It does. And it sounds like you've, you've learned your own behaviors. You're, you're very in control of that. I love that. Stepping away to breathe. We say regulate then communicate in that order. So, you're stepping away and regulating. Do you set an amount of time to then come back, or is it just open-ended?

It's open-ended. But what would you recommend I say in a situation like that? If I'm feeling overwhelmed during a conflict or a confrontation, what is something I could say to my partner that would make him feel heard, but also make him understand that I need to step away and take my space?

How comfortable are you sharing context with people?

Super. Yeah. Ask me whatever. Very.

I, well, I ask because with, with people who have avoidant tendencies, sometimes, sometimes context itself is safety. So,

Oh, it'll be hard for me to remember details for sure when I'm regurgitating it, but I'll give you the gist of whatever I remember.

Oh, no, no, no. I mean sharing context with him in that moment.

Oh. Oh, with him. Um, like, "I don't understand what you're saying," or "I don't feel empathetic," type of thing.

Sharing how you feel. Sensory data.

It'd probably be hard for me. Yeah. In the moment, for sure.

Okay.

The reason I asked that is this. Um, most people think that they have to say one magic phrase that's going to make the other person feel okay, or they have to ask the perfect question.

That's what I feel.

Yeah. And there's massive pressure. Yes.

To remove that pressure, all that we need to do is actually give you the ability to give a little bit of sensory data as context, and then go for the ask. That's all we need.

So essentially, I would say, "I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed right now. Can I please step away so I can better formulate my thoughts before contributing to this conversation?" Your brain probably won't let you phrase it that way because that's a high.

No, that is, that's a high-level thought. That's good. If you can say it that way, amazing. I usually tell people, let's tone it down to like a, a fourth-grade reading level. That's up here, like, you know, that's that's in college level, which is great. If you can say it that way, beautiful. An easier way to say it would be, "I'm too hot right now."

"I'm too hot right now for this. I know I'm not going to give you my best. I need 20 minutes."

Oh, okay.

That simple. Simple.

That simple. The context is, I'm not walking away. I'm just not going, I'm not doing good.

Yeah.

I can't do this right now.

And you always put a time like 20 minutes, just.

I usually do because what you need to do is be intentional about bringing your nervous system down. There's some tactics I can give you for that specifically.

Okay.

One thing I have found for avoidant people is often they understand dopamine and cortisol, but they don't have an ability to decrease their cortisol because their oxytocin and GABA is so low. So they say, "I need an open-ended amount of time," because I don't know when it's going to calm down. And then they step away and wait for it to just sort of plunge, or they step away and dopamine to make it plunge. And that's all they have. So we need to teach you some physical tactics if you don't have any yet. I can show you some, but okay. You step away, you intentionally bring it down, 20 minutes, maybe 30, and then you cool it off, you set a time, you come back immediately on that target, and you guys are both good. Ideally, both of you are regulating so you can come back with a clear communication. Then you come back with just like you're intuitively doing, which is beautiful. You come back and ask some questions to clarify.

Okay. That makes sense. That's something that I actually implement with my children as well. When I feel overtouched,

Great.

Or I'm overwhelmed with screaming.

"Mommy needs a break. I'm going to go sit in my room for a few minutes. When I feel better, I'll come back out."

Nice. How do your kids do with that?

They do really well. They've been trained.

And they pile right back on top of you.

Oh, yeah. The moment I step foot outside of my bedroom, they're right back on top of me. That's good. But they know when mommy's taking her break, they know not to come into the room. Like, and they know that because when they, you know, when they were little, they would come in. I'd be like, "Mommy still needs a break. You need to go back on the couch." And they'd cry, whine, whatever.

Set them back on the couch. As long as you're consistent with it and put them back on the couch. They just learned over the last few years when mommy's taking a break, we leave her alone. Um, but I, I would like to ask you, what are the effects of that on my children?

I was, I was wondering if you wanted to go there.

Yeah, I do. Um, I always tell parents, it's not, it's not possible to be a perfect parent for anybody.

I'm shocking. I'm not a perfect parent.

I'm surprised by that.

Right. Right. And, and none of us ever will be, cuz every parent is going to have rough days. Every parent has has quirks. Every parent has weirdness. Um, there's always going to be weirdness, no matter what we do. So, a couple things that we can do. Yes, there's a good window of tolerance that we try to keep our kids when as much as we can. Yeah. There's also the difficulty of parents splitting up, which is is tough for them, right? There's going to be difficulty. The difficulty of a mom who has needs of not being touched as much obsessively versus a mom who's like, "Whatever, I'm here." Right? Just like, "Just do that." Um, couple things that we look for. Responsiveness. Are you able to be responsive when they have emotional needs? Are you able to physically comfort them in those areas?

You know, I'm so torn on a response to this question, honestly, because I have always thought that if you feed too much into emotional needs when they're young, it reinforces them not being able to be emotionally strong. M. And so, yes, if it's a dire need, somebody got hurt, somebody fell, absolutely, I'm, I'm there immediately. Now, if it's a, "My sister stole my toy and I'm mad that I didn't get my toy," I let them figure it out. My kids duke it out. They will literally fight and figure it out before I step in.

Okay?

And that's just how I've always parented them. I don't know if that's the right way or the wrong way, but I, I never want to feed too much into emotion because I'm scared that they're going to be too soft, or they're going to be, too, um, babyed, and life is so hard and the world is so hard that I don't want to raise children that are soft.

Okay.

That's the most avoidant mothering phrase I've ever heard in my life. That's okay. No, that's okay. That's okay. Um, the thing about avoidant attachment is it is designed for hardcore survivors in a world that demands hardcore survival tactics. So you are going to raise children who are going to be geared for hardcore survival.

Good.

Yeah. And I, and I hear that, right? And avoidant people will say, "Good." What we want to do is mitigate any factor that would prevent them from building intimate, trusting friendships and relationships down the road with the correct people. Right? We also don't want to go so far that we create anxious children that collapse into other people, begging for the reassurance that they needed.

It's my daughter. I can already tell she has anxious tendencies, for sure.

Okay.

So responsiveness is always good. Remember that they don't have a prefrontal cortex. Really? Not yet. It's, it's not even close to fully de, it's, it's.

So when you say that, you're saying they're not manipulative yet, in a sense.

Not, they can be a little bit.

Okay.

They can be a little bit. It's good to teach them. It's good to teach them how to begin managing, but they're not really at a developmental age where their brain can do that yet. They actually need to get safety from you first. Remember that. Remember that when they have a scary dream in the middle of the night, or their favorite toy breaks, remember that to them, this is the most terror and pain their nervous system has ever felt.

Yeah.

In this moment, for us, it's like, "Okay, your toy broke. You have 50 other toys right there." It's something I really struggle with, to be honest. But to them, this is the death of a loved one. This, this is, they just watched someone die in front of them. It, it's devastating. So, we do need to be responsive to that. We don't want to collapse into it, but we need to be responsive. It's a tough line.

I need to do better, for sure.

We all need to do better. In your case, it's going to be remembering that other people's emotions are important to them.

Yeah.

They're not at an age yet where they can do that. If you don't, if you don't give them that, either they're going to be so closed off they can't form a marriage, or they're going to be so collapsing that they can't form a marriage. They'll be taken advantage of. We don't want that.

So, is there still a time to fix that or change that?

That was the second thing I had is no matter what we do, we screw up. We will always screw up everything. If we're not avoidant, we're anxious and we smother the kids to death and we create avoidant tendencies. Anxious moms usually create avoidant boys quite often because you smother them to death. So you're not doing that, which is great.

Yes. So context when we say, "Mommy needs a break."

Mhm.

Why does mommy need a break?

"Mommy feels overwhelmed."

There we go. If we don't fill the context, then what happens is their brains begin to fill the context.

Oh.

If we say, "Mommy needs a break," and we don't tell them why, they might fill the context with, "Mommy needs a break from you. You are too much. You are inappropriate, and I don't, I don't like this. You're just too much, kid. Leave me alone."

I can see that with my kids sometimes. They feel rejected.

Yes.

When I need a break.

That's what we need. And rejection is, rejection is down to context. "I don't have capacity right now" is different from "I don't want to give you capacity."

Right. Okay. Okay. And if we don't clarify through context, like you said, it was tough for you. If we don't clarify through context, they fill it.

And that's where attachment issues really start to form is the context they have to fill on their own.

Okay.

A healthy secure parent does not do everything right. A healthy secure parent covers their mistakes appropriately. Not, not, not hides, but covers their mistakes with context so the child can understand and grow through it.

Does that make sense?

That makes sense. So, what happens if I forget to explain to my kids that I'm feeling overwhelmed? Let's say that I, I'm like, "I, I'm just going to take a break right now. I need a minute away from you guys." Let's say I, I go in my room, I take my break, and I come back out and I try to repair the situation at that point. Is the repair able to replace the feeling? Is the repair able to replace expressing the feelings that I had?

Quite often.

Yeah. So repair is almost more important than the actual instance.

Perfect harmony.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, repair. Repair is crucial. It's different. It's different. So if you, and, and you're just going to have a different family structure, that's all. Which is fine. You're going to raise kids that value context. You're going to at some point, what you're going to have to do is enlist them in asking questions. So it's not endlessly you always remembering to do everything perfect. M. You're going to have to grow with them and say, "Kids, if you ever don't understand why I'm doing something, please ask me."

Is that reinstating the searching and survival mechanisms though that you were just talking about in other people?

What it will do actually is help them understand that they can ask for context with you and with other human beings. So, if they don't understand, it's, it's like you being able to talk to your partner now and say, "Hey, look, I see you're doing A, B, and C, and I don't know what you're doing, and my, my natural instinct is to assume that you're about ready to shoot me in the head and steal everything I have. But before I assume that, can you explain to me what you're doing here?" It's you pausing, breathing, and stepping away so you can go get your empathy back and then coming back and asking clarifying questions. Okay? You're actually training your children to do that. And that's how you can foster more secure connection with your kids. You can take, you can take the avoidant things that right now are governing the, the relationship that you have and actually grow it into very secure skills for your kids. Okay? Will they have some minor avoidant tendencies? Perhaps maybe. Might be, maybe they will have some very mild anxious tendencies, perhaps. But then they can build secure relationships that will grow forward successfully.

Okay.

What they need is the skills and the filtering. So if they have small tendencies here and there, it's not that big a deal.

In a perfect world.

In a perfect world, we'd all do things different.

Yeah.

We're just going to have to cover the gaps that you guys have. Now, there's also incredible skills that you guys will have because if you can grow this context and they can come back and get reassurance from you, "Mom, do you need a break from me?" "No, sweetheart. I don't need a break from you. I'm, I, I can't handle stimulation."

Mhm.

"Helping them even understand. Mommy didn't grow up in a family that was loving and close and sticky and and nasty and slimy. Mommy grew up in a family that was a little more closed off. So, for me, I like this. But, but, but mommy's battery is this big. It's not you guys at all. I need to step away so I can breathe and come back and be a happy mommy. That's all. And I, and I always want to be a happy mommy for you guys. So sometimes I need to breathe. That's all."

That makes sense. What are some other tendencies that you see from avoidant women translate into motherhood?

Great question. And it's from our list. I, you remember it better than I do. Thank you. But one, one thing I, I see a lot is avoidant women, and men, but, but avoidant women since we're on the topic, they do everything by themselves. Their brain always defaults to, "How am I going to do this?" Even in relationships, "How am I going to keep my marriage together alone? Me alone. How will I grow a good relationship with my child? How will I do this? How will I do this?" And the brain with an, with an avoidant piece in, in there, what it does is completely automatically bypasses the concept of collaboration with others and immediately goes to solo, solo work.

Interesting.

So what I just did there was tell you you need to train your kids to ask you questions when you forget. You need to train your partner to ask you questions when you forget. You actually need to work collaboratively in all of your human relationships, which is the core essence of secure.

Okay?

And that in turn, what that will do is actually pump you full of oxytocin going forward, which will make it easier for you to feel that intimate connection. That will actually increase your capacity. What you're feeling when you, when your battery goes low and you have to step into the other room, when everything feels like it's grating on your nerves, that's actually often low oxytocin. The higher we can get your oxytocin levels, the higher your capacity for everybody's going to.

be and the fewer breaks you're going to need. Not zero, but the fewer. Okay? Does that make sense?

Yeah. If you get to a moment where your kids climbing all over you is that much, and if it's happening multiple times in a row and it's chaining, that usually means your oxytocin level is low, which usually means you have to go to your partner and say, "Look, I'm running low. I need you to top me up."

That's exactly what happens. That's the game. That's exactly the game.

And then he is like, "Why is it my job to fill up your cup?"

See, now if he was secure, he'd be like, "Great, do it." Right? Because he's because he's avoidant. His brain says, "Why is it my job?"

That's actually his role as a masculine partner. That is his job in your life.

To refill my cup. He has two jobs. That is one of them. One job is to provide actual safety so that you can stop having to manage absolute safety for yourself.

The second is to refill your cup.

I love that. That's that's why you have a man.

You've spent years learning exactly what to do in your relationships, but when it comes time to do it, you don't. You fall apart. You try to people please or you run away or you start another argument or you just bite your tongue and let it go for one more day. And that has never served you well. But you can't make yourself stop doing it. That's because you're not training the correct part of your brain. You're working on your prefrontal cortex, the thinking area, when you need to reprogram your nervous system, grow some skills, and use those to remap your entire brain. Therapy will not help you do this. That's why people stay stuck for 10, 20 years in therapy.

I'm building an in-person program at the end of April down in San Diego, California, where we will be reprogramming those nervous systems together. Now, this is a very small hand selected group of people. I only choose people who are ready to do this work. So, if you are tired of having the same relationship patterns play out again and again, if you can map them yourself, but can't make yourself do them, the relationship mastery intensive retreat was designed just for you.

At this retreat, me and my team of certified coaches will help you achieve the breakthrough you've always been waiting for. That's going to happen through live master classes led by me where I train you exactly on what you've always missed. Coaching demonstrations from my coaching team where they show you exactly what scripts you never knew you needed and you can see them played out in real time. and then small coachled training practicums where you will use those skills in real time to begin remapping your brain right there at the retreat. You won't go home from this program waiting to use skills. You go home already using them and ready to deepen them. If you've been waiting for the sign that you're ready to break free, this is it. Secure your spot right now at this retreat because again I hand select people very carefully and I don't want you to miss your spot if this is your year. To learn more, click the link down in the description below.

How often do you lean into the navigate life and get my cup refilled? How often do you lean into that?

A lot with my current partner. Nice. I really do. I I've learned I have to or else I will resent him and I'll be like what a waste of my time. Like what are you here for? Yes.

Um but with my with my kids dad, not very often. And I think I I tried to, but he was so avoidant himself that he rejected me quite a bit and it felt like I was a burden. And when I feel like a burden, I'm done.

Like I will walk away forever. But with my current partner, I I try really hard to be vulnerable. I try really hard to be um you know, intimate with my feelings and my insecurities. And when I'm feeling down or I'm feeling negative, I I try to be very transparent with that. Okay.

Um and he's pretty receptive most of the time. He's honestly great.

Okay. Does he track your oxytocin levels? Can he tell when you're going into mechanical mode?

I don't think he's there yet. No.

No. He's not able to track it.

Not yet. Okay.

No. Have you ever asked him?

Mm-m.

I honestly would ask him, how aware he is of those because if he can begin tracking that for you, he'll notice it before you do.

Okay.

One nice thing about having a partner, the reason, one reason we need partners is they actually can protect us from our self.

They can track us more carefully than we do. They're more aware of us than we are. And that's a benefit. It's actually a benefit if you can lean into it and trust each other. There may be some things that you could be tracking for him. I bet you notice things about his mood and his behaviors before he does.

So fast. Instantly. Yeah.

He can probably track it with you. I would be willing to bet he probably knows your signs. He may not know the emotions, but I bet he's tracking the signs.

That actually might help you even save you a day or two in advance instead of you catching a day or two late. What you just explained sounds beautiful like a wonderful relationship. Yes.

That is the bare minimum of a relation. That's what it should be, right? That but that's that's what that's what ability to collaborate unlocks for you is all the places that you find liabilities in yourself, you can actually outsource to him.

And the benefit is the places he finds liabilities in him, he can outsource to you.

I love that. That that's what we would call an interdependent relationship. You're not dependent or independent. You're interdependent upon each other.

Is that how most successful relationships function? They must mandatory.

That is mandatory to be able to do that. That's it's one reason we have a partner in the first place.

Okay. Business partner or romantic partner. Either one. Actually, both relationships are very interesting because they work almost identically.

We have to be hyper aware of each other in a good way, but then actually voice that to the other person and then be willing to receive that feedback from the other person. The safety to receive and know that if you speak up, he will listen instead of brushing you aside.

Mhm. And the understanding that if he comes to you, he's going to do it in a gentle, gracious kind of way to share useful data with you instead of trying to control or demean you.

Yeah, that's something we've worked through actually is when he he comes to me quite a bit with concerns or feelings or thoughts. And

this is good. I used to get very defensive and almost insecure, but looking back on it now, I realize that it's a step up for him because he would never do that before.

That's massive. Yeah. And so as hard as it is to hear some of the things he has to say, um I told him I'm like, "It's not about what you say, it's how you say it." And we've been working on rephrasing things to say it in a softer way.

This is another place you can collaborate because your brain might, if it's like most people's, avoidant or otherwise, your brain might grab that and start filling context and say, "He's doing this because he doesn't care. He's mad. He's he's hurting me. He's if you can breathe and then ask what are you hoping to achieve by sharing this with me?

If you can start clarifying his goals and intentions. Context. Context will be everything for you guys. It's going to be the last thing. You ever see that movie Mrs. Mr. and Mrs. Smith?

Yes. Angeline Julia. That's going to be you guys. the secrets that you have, the context you don't share is what's actually going to destroy you guys down the road.

Unless you manage it, then it actually won't. If you guys can get really good at both volunteering context and requesting context, okay.

Both of you have to do both so that when one of you forgets, the other one covers your cap.

That makes sense. It's both. It's equally on both of you at the same time. There's no one like, "Well, you didn't do your job." Right.

Both of you have to continuously be sharing context and requesting context.

Okay. Another thing that I want to something else I wanted to ask you was how does having an avoidant attachment style translate into the workplace?

It's incredibly good. Like it's one of the best ones there is until you reach a certain threshold at the top. So I have a lot of high performing clients who make a lot of money. They build businesses. They are incredible. The building is everything they've ever wanted.

Mhm. You reach a certain point and you either want to have a successor that you can't build a relationship with or you get a board that you can't build relationships with or you get other executives at the top and you've built to a certain level and you can't build relationships or trust them or your health starts to fall apart or everyone starts to unite against you because you've never built relationships with anybody and they start turning on you.

That makes sense. Those are what I usually see. Or the last one, you your marriage starts to fall apart, so they destroy your business because they rip it apart through a divorce. There is not a happy ending for avoidantly attached people until they become secure. Once they start building secure attachment, that's what allows them to transform at the top and then actually maintain. Climbing the mountain often requires avoidant attachment.

I was just going to ask you, what would you recommend if you were going to start a business? Is it more beneficial to have an avoidant attachment style?

Yes. Or find a partner who's avoidantly attached. That's what actually I did. I found a person who has more avoidant tendencies than I do and they help me build. Right. It's that it's that's and I've show Andre. Um it's you need avoidant tendencies often to be very successful in business quite often. Not all I mean you can do it with secure but avoidant is almost easier. It's it's the cheat code because you are ruthless. You're non-simental. You're focused on on productivity. You also got to work 16 hours a day without batting an eye. If people complain about it, you work 18 hours just to show them, right? Like you push through, which is really great for business, but again, you climb the mountain, but then you're going to fall down and die.

So, would you recommend working on that attachment style as you're growing your business?

Absolutely. A lot of avoidant people come to me and say, "Adam, I'm afraid you're going to make me lose my edge. You're going to take away the choice of working this hard. You're going to take away my ability to be that productive." And it's not about taking it away. Not ever. That's a that's a that's a mode you you will always have for the rest of your life.

The target is to give you a second mode you can click into when appropriate either on the weekends with your kids. In this case, we have to give you the parasympathetic rest and digest mode. We have to give you the high oxytocin, the high serotonin, the ability to sleep deeply and actually rest and refresh. The ability to immerse and connect with your kids or in a business with your successor, with your board, with the other executives, with the people working around you to actually build true loyalty. Otherwise, they will never feel loyalty toward you because you will never be signaling loyalty with them ever. And they're going to always feel like you're a shark who just happens to be fed, but they're swimming in a tank with you, waiting for you to eat them. And they'll bond with each other, but they will not bond with you. So, you'll find fall down the other side of the mountain.

That makes so much sense. Right? So, to get to the top of the mountain and then build your palace where you get to live there happily with everybody you love, you have to have a second set of skills. That is the secure attachment level. You have to be able to build into that. You have to be able to reach your parasympathetic and rest and digest. You have to, yes, be able to step away and breathe, but then come back. What you're crafting with your children and with your partner actually is what you're going to have to bring into your business at some point as well, too.

Okay? Otherwise, life will fall apart. You'll fall down the mountain. You're going to die or someone will punt you down. Actually, what what often happens either is you get to the top and nobody understands you, so they misunderstand you and they walk away and your best talent leaves you.

Yeah. Or you have a heart attack or a stroke at like 45 and and things go badly.

Great. Or quite often people simply just walk away and they just assume you're not interested in them and then you say, "Where'd everybody go?"

Yeah. It's this deep level of misunderstanding where you might be driven out of the company or or just left behind and there's just nothing left. You've built and you have all the money in the world, but what for?

Mhm. That's a lot of my clients when they come to me in their 60s at that point. They they've built and there's nobody left.

That's so sad. Right? You're catching it at a perfect time.

You're catching at a perfect time. As soon as someone comes to me, that's the perfect time, right? The best time they say is yesterday. The second best time is today. So, start building that in and being able to just go into a second mode like you are with your partner. Being able to have those conversations, being able to lean in. How are you with asking him like, "I need a hug." Does that make your skin crawl to be able to say that?

It used to. It used to.

I used to, but I'm better about it now. Is it possible to transition from an avoidant attachment style to an anxious attachment style? Because there's certain situations with my partner I feel like I'm very anxious and I've never felt that way before in my entire life.

Um, tell me more. It's like I need reassurance. And I've never once needed reassurance in my entire life, but it feels like safety to me. It feels like I feel so good when he gives me reassurance. And so when I ask for a hug or like you still love me, right? Like would you love me if I was a bug tomorrow? Like questions like that. And he gives it to me most of the time. But other times he gets a little bit annoyed. He's like why are you looking for reassurance right now?

Um so I I'm curious. Is it possible to transition from avoidant attachment to anxious attachment in a relationship?

What's fascinating is that your brain is classifying that as anxious attachment.

What is it? It's actually normal to ask for reassurance.

Yeah. How often? What's the frequency?

It will be more for you right now just during the transition. Your brain is learning to thrive on on on a consistent supply of oxytocin. Prior to this, oxytocin probably felt uncomfortable for you in a lot of places, right? Because it's vulnerability.

It felt weak. It it's weak, but it's addictive.

If you get too much oxytocin, then that person owns you.

Yes. I didn't want to feel like they had control over my emotions or my life.

So, what you're actually doing when you're going to him is saying, "I am feeling weak with you. Am I safe with this weakness or are you going to eventually use it against me or walk away from me and hurt me, betray me? Do you feel this way too? Is actually kind of what you're saying. You're actually seeking mutual connection.

But what if he's like, I've done everything right. I haven't done anything wrong. Why do I need to tell you this when all my actions show you that?

See, what's interesting is he thinks that he's done something wrong. He's actually it's because he's done so many things right that you're having that feeling.

Oh, you're having the feeling because he's done it right.

Wow, that makes sense. Okay. And and you can tell him that.

Yeah. It's not that, as you say, it's not that you've done anything wrong. It's actually that you're doing everything right. And I feel I feel more vulnerable to you than I've ever felt to any human on the planet. I'm not coming to you because I think you're going to betray me. I'm coming to you because I've never known safety before and I just want to hear that I am safe. In this moment, I feel so soft that I need you to help me feel safe again. That's all.

Yeah. I feel like a soft Sally quite regularly, honestly. I really do.

That's awesome. Does that disgust you about yourself when you feel that way?

It used to, but now I joke about it now. I think it's just funny. I'm just like, I'm a soft now. We just deflect. We just deflect. We just assault ourselves through humor. That's okay. No, what you're feeling is incredibly normal. You're not even close to the level of a secure woman at that point. A secure woman, she would be leaning into that, saying, "I just want to know that you're here, and if you can help me feel loved, I will help you feel loved in 5 minutes."

And a secure man loves that, right? Yes.

Dang. Now, a secure man is going to understand what you need. He's going to respond. If it gets to be too much, he's going to say, "It looks like something's off. are you feeling where are you not feeling safe? He's going to understand that it's not I've done every anything wrong. He's tracking like he's failing you. He's tracking that when you feel vulnerable he's failing to provide safety.

Mhm. And so he's starting to get provoked and say, "Lady, what are you doing? Like I I've given you everything I can give you. Where where are we where are we falling short? Where where are you seeing me fail?" That's what he's asking you.

M and you're saying I don't know. Like I don't know. I don't know. But no, you're you're actually succeeding so incredibly that I've never felt this before and I feel uncertain because this just makes me feel weak.

Yeah. I just need like reassurance. That's all I need is just reassurance that like everything is good because sometimes it's too good. It It seems almost not true.

You don't need reassurance that everything's good. You need reassurance that this isn't going to disappear.

Yeah. Poof.

Yeah. And now you're thrown into a dark, cruel world, unprepared for it. And all of a sudden, there you are, no weapons, no armor, fighting for your life.

Yeah, that sounds horrible. Like, if this relationship doesn't work out, I'm telling you right now, Adam, I'm single for the rest of my life. I would just like to let you know.

I hear you and I understand that. Yeah.

I I do. Um, I need to know that this isn't going to go poof. And I'm not asking because I don't trust you. Mhm. I'm asking because I've never trusted anyone the way I trust you right now. So, I don't know what to expect.

Okay. Can you phrase it that way?

Yeah, that sounds great. You make me feel so safe that I don't know what happens next.

How many men and women are born naturally secure? Do you always have to come born secure?

You always have to come from a different attachment style and work to be secure. Nobody's born anything. It is entirely learning in your brain. Your brain learns am I in a system where people will work with me, give respond to me consistently, give me context, reassure me, and then help me grow into reassuring myself. Are they going to be fair with me and deal with me with kindness, my family system around me? Are they going to, yes, challenge me and help me grow, but do so at a pace that is right for me, right? Where I can handle it.

Yeah, that would be secure attachment. So certain kids though are raised into households where they develop into adults with a naturally secure attachment. Is that correct?

If they are raised into secure attachment, yes, it is something your brain picks out. It's an adaptation one way or another. Or you are raised with insecure. It's it's a binary really. It's a binary. Are we in a household where resources are plentiful, love is plentiful, and we take care of each other? Or are we in a situation where love is not plentiful, resources are not plentiful, and people are fighting for survival? And if they're fighting for survival, which direction do I need to go to maximize my survival? I see.

Do I need to please other people, or do I have to take control of the situation?

I see. That's anxious or avoidant? That's it.

Okay. Can it change throughout a child's childhood?

It can. Yeah. Yeah, it can. If our kids are are starting off anxious, um I one of my daughters, she had a medical problem when she was born.

Oh. And she we had to give her medication that made her vomit.

Oh gosh. Every day. But she kept enough of it down that it did its job. And the doctors like this is the only option or or she'll have she'll die of of cancer basically. Go. So she grew up as as an initial child, she had all the signs of anxious attachment. I'm watching us have grow anxious attachment in my in my daughter. Yeah. And as I'm watching this as a specialist like I see what's happening. I can't stop this train wreck.

Yeah. So, what we've had to do is foster and cultivate very deep security through conversations at at the level her brain can understand that she's safe, that we're here, that yes, it started rocky, but we are okay and grow more secure connection. And as we did, we watched her go through stages of becoming more and more secure. It was fascinating to watch where now she's like the most secure kid I've got. She's incredible. She'll probably take over my work someday.

Awesome. Um, yes, you can. Attachment is meant to grow and adapt and change. It is.

So, yes, all of that. Why are you asking?

I was just curious like after going through all of this with my current partner, is it possible to regress back if this weren't to work out? Is it possible to regress back to avoidance avoidant attachment?

Not completely. Not completely. And I'll be honest, why? It's because your behavior previously was ignorant of what was possible.

Now that I see the possibilities, then I will be more open-minded to it. You will want more.

Yeah, quite frankly, your system is designed to seek a secure attachment if it's possible.

That makes sense. Previously, your brain thought it wasn't possible, so it gave up.

Now that you've seen it's possible, your brain's going to say, "I need more of this cuz it's healthy for me." I see.

The the problem with with avoidant attachment style is that you trade long-term survivability for short-term survivability. So, your oxytocin goes down. And people go, "Well, I can live without that." Well, the low GABA that comes from low oxytocin means unregulated cortisol, which means rampant inflammation throughout your body. It means destroyed estrogen levels and lower fertility. It also means increased physical pain and suffering. It means chronic pain. It means autoimmune disorders most likely. It means immune system suppression. It means increased cancer cells flooding your body and not being cleaned out. So, increased risk of cancer, heart attack, stroke, insulin resistance. Wow. It means chronic migraines, chronic pain just throughout your entire body. Wear and tear goes up. So, your joint damage is likely to get worse. Inflammation running through your body does organ damage, bone deterioration, digestive issues that then lead to absorption problems with calcium and everything else. So, osteoporosis can maybe get increased. Obviously, I'm not saying it not saying attachment gives you osteoporosis, but all of those long-term damage effects. When I say, "Hey, we got to get you some oxytocin." Yay. But that's shorthand for, hey, I don't want you to die at 45.

Right. Does that make sense? Yeah.

So, yes, you'll live longer, but you'll have higher quality of life the entire time. That's the process. And your brain knows that. So, now if it knows, okay, hey, wait, my environment does have some humans that can give me some of this. I just have to start finding them. I need to track the variables.

That's the piece. So, yes, I get it that you would live alone for the rest of your life in a forest with only hedgehogs as your friends, right? I hear that. But, but no, you wouldn't. Your system will now drive you back. And that's actually the vulnerability your system is actually afraid of. My system will now make me seek people for oxytocin. And that's a vulnerability and a liability I didn't have before.

Which is why you're then going to him and saying, "Would you still love me tomorrow if I was a bug? Would you love me if I couldn't give you love anymore? Would you love me if I was inconvenient to you? Would you keep me if I was a problem? Would you keep me if I was bony and pokey? Would you keep me if I was gross? Like for example, if I start crying.

Mhm. That's what would you love me if I was a bug really means. Will you love me when I'm inconvenient? Do you have loyalty to me? Are you connected to me the way I'm connected to you? Because I feel naked right now and I'm afraid you'll walk away from me. Not because of you, but because of me.

Mhm. I wouldn't keep me. Look at me. I'm gross. I'm crying. I'm having feelings. I'm inconveniencing you when you're coming home from work asking if you would still keep me if I was a bug. I wouldn't put up with that. Why do you put up with that? That's That's really what you're asking.

It's true. Right? Yes.

Being able to phrase it and contextualize it different. Mhm. Even giving him context before you ask. I'm going to ask you something and not because you're failing, but because you are so incredible. I have to ask you something about me. This is going to sound gross and goofy and all I need to hear is a yes or no. And then it's done and I don't need the rest of your energy for the rest of the day. I promise. I am feeling so connected to you that I've never felt this before and it's actually putting me in a vulnerable state. All I need to know. I just need yes or no cuz I trust you. You're a good man with good integrity. Do I need to hold back because this could go poof or am I okay letting go? And he goes, "No, you're okay. I got you. Would you tell me if we if we reached a place, would you give me 15 warnings before we got to a poof where you disconnected from me? Remember the beginning of our conversation, you said once I once I'm done with you, I'm done forever.

Mhm. Your brain is afraid he's going to reach that point and not tell you.

Yes. It's like one of my biggest fears. Yeah. You're afraid you're going to make it happen. That you're going to be inconvenient. He's going to go or a burden and a burden like you said cuz then I'm done forever. That wasn't you. That wasn't about you, by the way. You walk away so they can't reject you the way you would reject them.

I've always walked away first. That's what I mean.

Yeah. You need to get to a place where you are comfortable being emotionally naked to him.

Mhm. Emotionally naked.

How how do you foster that relationship practice? There is no substitute.

You have to have the conversations and you have to have the experiences where he looks at you and says, "Yes, when you are inconvenient, I will still talk to you and love you. I will still be loyal. Yes, I would give you 15 warnings in advance. No, I will not go poof one day and walk on you. No, I am not going to turn off at a moment's notice and be gone and leave you hanging. No, I am not going to do that.

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So is it a fair assumption that two people, any two people can make a relationship work if they're willing to sit down and figure it out together and commit to making it work.

To be honest with you, it has nothing to do with attachment styles, with upbringings, with personality types. If you both commit to each other and make the devotion to each other to learn and grow together, you can make it work.

Yes. Caveat, all of those variables track into a person's willingness. All of them.

Now, if you have wildly different goals, one of you doesn't want to have children ever and one of you does, right? That's a variable. Yeah. Because now you're not willing. Yeah. One of you, you know, wants to live in Florida and the other one wants to live on Mars. Okay. Now, there's a variable. Now, the now the willingness is not there.

Yeah. Right. That's the problem. There are some compatibility pieces obviously, but they're they're very few and far between, just to be bluntly honest with you.

That's so interesting, Adam, because I feel like nowadays everybody is having so many problems and such a struggle to find somebody to settle down with or have a healthy relationship with.

Yes. But that's because nobody's wanting to talk about actual goals because nobody has goals. They keep them secret if they have them. And most of the time it's just let's get together, give each other good feelings till one of us dies and then move on. And they don't commit to each other and each other's struggles and problems that they have.

I always tell people don't commit to the other person. Commit to the vision and then devote yourself to each other to co-create that vision. Committing to each other is gross. No, and it is. That's two anxious people committing to each other because then you don't have goals. They're just make each other happy and that's terrible. That's a recipe for disaster. Have a vision. So with you and your partner, you guys need to have a larger vision you're co-creating together. A reason that you're together that's stronger than being apart.

That's how you vasopressin bond. Both of you need to maximize your vasopressin bonding as much as humanly possible because that will then activate the desire for oxytocin in both of you. The higher your vasopressin goes, the more your system will try to force you to oxytocin bond. It'll make both of you gooey and sappy because you'll want it.

I love that. So rather than trying to force the oxytocin all at once, you do some schedule oxytocin. Do that on purpose and I I'll show you what to do, but get that going first and then as you lean into it, the vasop prein needs to be absolute maxed out as often as possible. Your brains will over prioritize it. Actually, your oxytocin receptors shift away from receiving oxytocin if they don't get them into vasopressin molecules instead. So you are actually geared in your brain the way a man probably is to bond. Avoidant women, avoidant women in particular. I'm manly.

No. But you will bond like a man. So, don't men bond through sex?

No. How do men bond? Vizopressin challenges. Problem solving. Problem solving. Killing animals together. Hunting. Achieving. Actually having hard conversations and it goes well. That's vasopressin.

I love that. Facing your fears together. Being soft and weak and someone receives you.

Vasopressin and oxytocin. Okay. him being softer and weaker with his desires to you, but in a way that's respectable so that you can embrace that and actually care for him. That's vasopressin. Your softness and his softness revealing that to each other will be vasopressin and oxytocin. That's the nice thing with avoidant attachment is you get so much extra bonding from fixing the attachment. It's incredible.

Yeah, we've definitely had some moments like that and that's what keeps us going. Yeah.

Yeah. We need to maximize that. You guys also need to be learning a skill together as often as possible. skill training together is going to be really crucial. If that means taking a a gun safety class together or a dancing class together or an archery class together or a financial literacy class together, I don't care what it is, but you need to be constantly maxing skills together and training and learning them together as a couple.

We're actually going to do a cooking class. See?

Perfect. Vasop prein work together and achieve those things and high-five as often as possible. That that's when we really connect is achieving stuff together. Yes, but literally high five and yell vasopressin as you do. My wife and I do this every time. We're like, "We did it." We go, "YEAH, VASOPRESS AND WE HIGH FIVE."

So funny. But it's an important moment because for a lot of avoidant people, it's not we did this. It's I did this and you were standing nearby.

Mhm. It's way too easy for the brain to do that.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Mhm. Make yourself acknowledge that this was a team effort.

I love that both of you together need to acknowledge out loud, this was a team effort. We did this together as a team. If you can do that, it really protects you from from that effect.

Deal. A woman is primed to release oxytocin in a couple of very key instances. And we can actually use this quite effectively. Do you like laying on his chest non-stop?

Yeah. Yeah.

Oxytocin. Yeah. Like it's funny because my kids overtouch me, but with him I tell him all the time like I just want to live in your skin.

Yes. Yeah. That's oxytocin. You get oxytocin when you are on his chest. But humans get oxytocin actually when we're on each other's chest. That's actually what oxytocin entered a genomic code for is for contracting the uterus through live birth. It is for driving bonding in mammals so that we are also socially cohesive and it is for the let down of milk during breastfeeding. Those are the three times that oxytocin really releases most. I mean that's what it's in our code for. Those are the three main purposes it's for. So any of those three will start activating it for us. So contraction of the uterus, obviously during sex, when you orgasm with him, you're going to release oxytocin.

When you're on his chest, your brain actually begins to stimulate because it says, "I'm on I'm on a chest of somebody I love breastfeeding as an infant." Actually, it's an instinctive thing. Letting him rest on your chest, laying his head on your chest, actually is going to be a massive release of oxytocin, usually for both of you. Skin-to-skin contact is is very crucial. Um, but especially on the face, again, infants, skin, um, we go back to breastfeeding, it's baked right into every human being on the planet. That skin on your face, on a chest especially, release oxytocin. It's absolute primal for us.

Interesting. And you'll release oxytocin probably actually more than you will if you lay on his chest. You may actually find that you actually want him to in forever.

Yeah. Right. Have you ever tried this with him before?

No, but I'll try it. No, never. I mean like we've laid on each other before but not intentionally for that reason.

Yeah. Skin to skin and do it. Okay. Right. Your sex life is about to increase like triple because you guys are going to be doing this so often.

Amazing. But oxytocin will go up for both of you most likely. Uh I recommend putting on a movie cuz for some guys this is awkward especially for avoidant men cuz they're like like wait like he's like what do I do now? Right. And he'll begin it'll feel weird cuz he it is it's a vulnerable place for him and he'll feel like I'm feel like I'm being babyed and I feel weak. That's what he says to me. He was like, "I feel like your baby in me or like you're treating me like your son when I kiss all over him or when I'm super touchy with him." He's like, "I need you to be like a sexual woman, not like a mother."

It needs Tell him it needs to be both. For for it to be one. As your oxytocin goes up, you will feel an overwhelming urge of affection.

Mhm. That's what it is. That's how I feel when I touch him.

Yeah. Tell him. It's like overwhelming. Like I just want to like make out with him.

Correct. Yeah. That's That's fine. But wanting to kiss him, wanting to hold him, wanting to touch him, that's also a natural expression of it. You guys just don't know that because you're both avoidant.

Yeah. He's uncomfortable by it, honestly. Put a movie.

Yeah. Okay. Put a movie on. Put an old Do you guys like action movies?

Yeah. Yeah. My wife and I when we do this, I just like, "Babe, I'm putting on Die Hard." And she's like, "Okay, I'm laying down." She lays down. I lay on her and we're watching Die Hard. Like, you know, cuz I've seen it a billion times, but I can lay on her and just kind of relax. I can talk to her about her day. It's awkward if you're laying there in silence with nothing and he's like he won't be able to get into it cuz he's not relaxing. But when he can actually relax into it, he'll start feeling good.

The thing about avoidant men in particular is they resist any kind of human intimacy and warmth because they don't know how to receive it. The reason they're avoidant either is because they never received it ever. So, it's alien to them or they got a little bit and it was weaponized against them and became damaging. So, now he's learned to resist it.

The latter. Yeah. Mhm. So now his brain says, "If I soften to her, something bad's going to happen." It's not just, "Oh, I feel like I'm your son."

Well, okay. Why? What bad thing happened with your mom? Did she give you a hug and then slap you? Like, what's going on here, buddy? Letting him ease into it, he will actually start to soften with you and he'll probably start asking you some of those, what you said, anxious questions earlier. He's going to start feeling a little bit weird and uncomfortable, too.

Okay. In a good way. As you grow the vasop prein and oxytocin, what's going to happen is you're both going to have cravings that feel gross.

Like fetishes? No.

Oh, just this. I want to hug him and I hate myself for it. I want to lay on her, but I can never admit that. I need a hug, but I'd rather shoot myself in the face and admit it. Right.

Yeah. You're going to start disgusting yourself. This is actually where you actually need permission. This is going to be a new thing for you guys. You're going to have to actually tell him, "There are times where I need I need reassurance and it disgusts me and I'm afraid that I'm going to make it inconvenient for you and be a burden. Is it okay for me to ask you for those things?" And you asked me earlier, how often is okay?

How often is okay for us? You actually need to ask him that.

Okay? You need to ask him his capacity because I can't tell you what his capacity is. And his capacity needs to grow over time. Right now, it may be low. Be aware of that. You need to get a number.

You need to get a number of how often it's how long it's okay, how frequent it is, how intense it is, and then you can stick to that number. Then you're not guessing because otherwise you're going to start guessing frantically and you're not going to get it right and you're going to you're going to over guess or underg guess and it's going to go really badly.

Yeah. And I don't want to overbear him or be a burden at any point or ask too much of him. So, correct. But you have to understand that the masculine's job is to provide safety. Emotional safety is one of those. Have you ever had anyone give you emotional safety in your life?

Yeah. All the anxious men that were upset. That's not safety. No, that that's not safety at all cuz then you're creating safety for them, actually.

Oh, well, I I mean, I don't know. I I don't have daddy issues or anything. I have a great relationship with my father and my mom.

Okay. Um, so yeah, I think they were emotionally competent, I would say, to some degree. Avoidance had to come from somewhere. I think they were kind of avoidant, too. Actually.

They were avoidant, too. Okay. Not in a bad way, though. Not like the cry in the corner like by yourself type.

They survived. Yeah. Survivors. Are they um Did one of them immigrate to the country or anything like that?

No, they're both white. Both white people. Older. I'm adopted. Um

white people can immigrate too, but you're adopted. I'm adopted.

Very. Tell me that. Okay. So, how old were you when you got adopted?

Oh, shucks. Um, I was a baby.

Shocks. Yeah, I was a baby. So, you might know that a baby's highest developed sense is the sense of smell. And they can smell when they're not genetically around someone who is their parent. And their brain starts to say, "I'm among strangers. I'd better protect myself and be alive."

Wow. I didn't know that, but that's terrifying. Yeah. So, most most babies who are adopted have anxious, avoidant, or disorganized attachment style. It's a very natural thing.

Interesting. No matter how

good your parents are, your brain will still say something's not right here and I have to perform cuz where is my family? Was I was I abandoned or stolen or what happened? And how much will these people put up with me? I don't want to be a burden cuz they may not put up with me. I don't want to be too demanding. I don't want to be too soft. It could go poof. It went poof once before I even have memories.

Another thing when I realized when I had kids is I breastfed both my kids. And that like safety and connection that I felt with my children, it would be really hard to replicate that without breastfeeding, I think. And I wasn't breastfed as a baby.

That's also very true. Yeah. It it it gives them an overwhelming sense of safety. Um and so that that fosters them into oxytocin. Remember that you are pretty much your kids' only source of oxytocin right now in the world. Wow. So when they're coming to you for reassurance, what they're actually trying to do is get oxytocin the way that you go to your partner for reassurance.

If he says, "Get the out of here," right? And he slaps you away, right? So if he said, "Hey, hey, daddy needs some time alone. Leave me alone." Right? Go back to the couch. Yeah. Right. Doesn't sound the best. Right. So now when when you were asking me earlier about like what's the level that I can do with my kids? Yeah. Keep that in mind. How would you want him to respond to you? That's such a good perspective.

That's that's it. Your the vulnerability you feel they feel a hundred times right now. It's a really good perspective. But that's also the vulnerability you felt as an infant. As a kid growing up, you probably grew up feeling like I can't burden these people too much cuz they might kick me to the wayside. I just felt like they didn't understand me. Like I felt very disconnected. Yeah. And you know, they're older so that played a part obviously and I'm an only child and it was just I didn't I never felt connected in a sense. Yeah. The love is there. but not the fullness of it.

Your brain is always saying something went wrong once, it could go wrong again. Yeah. And I didn't realize that actually until I had kids. Honestly, I never realized that there was such a big disconnection there until I had kids. There we go. I'm glad I'm glad you told me this. Thank you.

That that's really what it is is your brain is always waiting for the day something happens so disastrously that you have to be ready. Like if the world honestly if World War II happened tomorrow and they nuked every major city and the world collapsed and it became Mad Max, you would be happy probably because you'd be like, "Ah, now I get to live the way I've always wanted." Right now you're built for that. Yeah. You're actually built for that. Mhm. A functioning, thriving society where everyone wants to hug and cry actually doesn't make much sense to you. Sounds horrible, honestly. Correct.

Right. So ultimately what we need to do is give you the ability to live in both. We don't want to take away either one. Your brain right now is recalibrating to, oh, I don't live in Mad Max land. I actually have a a man that can do this for me. If something bad happened, he would actually step up first before I have to. Yeah. It's really great, honestly, that like feeling of release. Yes. Like I don't feel like I have to control every variable or be on my toes in every situation. It's like, "Oh, shoot." Like, worst case scenario happened. At least I can call Mel or I can call him and he'll figure it out for me. 100%. Yeah.

And that's ultimately what we need to do right there is we need to give you that sense more and more every day. Mhm. It is not about you not being a burden to him because you will be inevitably as you step more and more into your feminine role. As you as you ease more and more into this, you will become more and more of a burden naturally. That doesn't mean a liability. M it means that there will be a burden on him. Yeah. It's it's impossible otherwise.

If you ask me does my wife and six kids put a burden on me as the sole breadwinner. Yes, there is a burden. Yeah. I wouldn't say they are burdens but there is a burden. Mhm. If you asked me am I compensated for it abundantly. Abundantly. Not only through the meaning and purpose and joy and love that I get, but from my wife's love for me and my kids giving me that love. Do do I demand a price for my kids? Absolutely not. Do my wife and I need to work together so that I am able to fulfill my role? Absolutely. I wouldn't be able to manage the level I do without her love and her intimacy and her care. So, is there a burden? Absolutely. Do I create your calendar is absolutely wild. I can't imagine what that looks like at home. And and it is do I create does my situation create a burden for my wife? Absolutely. Am I compensating her? Yes. And I ask her that frequently. We actually have to have check-ins for what you are giving me. Am I giving you enough in return? Oh, I love that. We have to am I taking too much from you or am I not giving you enough? We have to have those check-ins. And that's what you and your partner need to be building down the road is actually doing that. It's not am I a burden to you? You will be. Mhm. That's that's how humans work. Yeah. That's that's how humans work. Actually, he as the man should should be taking on more burden. That's that's what we exist for as men.

But then how do you compensate him? That's the question. How does he want to be compensated? What would be actually beyond the pleasure, beyond dopamine hits, beyond occasional attentiveness, right? be on milk and the goat twice a week. Beyond that process, how do you compensate him human to human in a way that nobody else could? That's that oxytocin. That's the vasopressin. That's you walking up and being able to put your hands up on his shoulders like this and look up at him and say, "I respect you for the way you take care of us." Mhm. I respect you for this and I am so grateful for the man that you are. and his testosterone shoots through the roof at that point and he's riding high for the next week and no one else on the planet can give him that feeling but you. Does that make sense? Yeah.

So for every moment that you're like, "Would you still love me if I was a bug?" Going to him and saying, "I so deeply respect the man that you are and I feel safer every day because of you." I love that. I'll try it out. There you go. It's not about not being a burden. That's not how human loyalty works. And that's that's the the biggest lesson I want to give you is with avoidant tendencies. Your brain won't track human loyalty. You will be loyal to people. I want to make that abundantly clear. Avoidant people get this bad rap that they're incapable of loyalty. And I'm so loyal, right? It's the furthest from the truth. Yeah. The problem is that your brain won't believe anyone could ever fully be loyal to you. Mhm. There's always a walk away point. Yeah. That's what your brain will say. and that you won't have input on the walk away. That's the other piece, too. I won't be given I won't be giving him warning about the walk away and I won't I won't be giving clarity and no one will work with me on it. Someday everybody eventually will poof. Mhm. Right. Yep. That's what we have to build. Mhm. You have to start building that structure with him so that you know not that he's loyal, but that you are safe. You're safe to relax all the way because he would give you 15 warnings and work with you every step of the way, right? He's not going to fire you day one. Perfect. That's That's what you needed. Yes. Do you have what you need to be able to go do that? Yes, I do. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Any other questions I can help you with here today? No, that was it. Thank you so much. Everything solved in one hour. I feel great. I'm going to go try it out and let you know how it goes this week. I'm glad to hear I would love to hear from you. Tell me how things go. Tell me if you have questions. Um, if he has any questions about it, explain context to him. Okay? Best thing you can do is give him context about what you're trying to build. There has to be a reason you're doing all of this, right? It is for what we are building. For what comes next, we need to be locked in.

So, can we have some conversations that will be uncomfortable and even a little tiring? Yeah. Can we take breaks when we need to? Right. Asking instead of wondering how much is too much, ask him how much is too much. We had a conversation last week. Are you ready to have another one or or do we need to wait another week? I see. Ask him those things. Yeah, he was actually gonna come here. So, maybe next time. Maybe another episode you're both on. That would be fun. It would be that would be fantastic. Yeah, he's me to a next extreme of avoidant, but Oh, I'm for it. Yeah, I love I love avoidant people. Honestly, I love avoidant people who are becoming secure people, right? That's the short hand is to say avoidant people, but we're all people. Yeah. I love people who have avoidant tendencies because when I can honestly just show you that you're safe being honest, oh, the honesty comes and then the loyalty comes because nobody has ever nobody's ever proven their loyalty usually before. True. Very true. Thank you, Adam. Absolutely. Thank you everybody out there. You know, this has been so much fun. Most of you have been asking me, Adam, do avoidant women exist? Can you bring one on the show? Can you talk about it? And here we are today. And it turns out they're human beings. That's the biggest lesson here today. Thank you for everybody out there. You know me. I'm Adam Lane Smith, the attachment specialist. You can find me and my entire team of certified coaches on adamlainith.com. We are all here to help and we're here to answer questions. You can email us through the website if you need any assistance. We are there night and day. For everybody at home that wants to find out more about you, where can they find you on Instagram? My Instagram handle is Karly Randall_. And you specialize in helping businesses grow and scale. Can you tell us just a little bit about that? I do. So I am a strategic business partner. I essentially help businesses that are looking to grow scale. So that can mean anything from building out different departments of teams, helping them acquire capital, helping them um with their financial revenue trajectories, forecastings, all of that good stuff. Or it could simply just be helping them hire different people for their teams. Wonderful. I had a lot of business owners in the in the comment section. Everybody out there, check her out. If you need help or advice, she's the person to ask. Thank you, Carly, for being here.