Transcription
Hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit isn't a skill to be acquired; it's a sense to be sharpened. By that, I mean that you already have the ability to hear the Holy Spirit. You already have the ability to hear from God in dreams. For me, it always comes back to that balance: grounded on the word and not being so dismissive that you miss these little moments where the Lord clearly was speaking to you, but you're too stubborn to admit it because you don't believe you can speak that way.
And then the other extreme would be obsessing over every dream that you have and becoming filled with fear and angst and tension because you never get the [Music] interpretation.
I'm going to start with a dream that I had. And this actually took place before Arya was born. So, if you guys recall, several years ago, Jess and I were struggling with infertility. We had tried various different approaches. We had consulted with different medical professionals, and, you know, ultimately, Arya happened to be a miracle baby. But a couple of years before Arya was born, I had a dream where I was down on one knee, talking face to face with a little girl with long brown hair. I could just see the back of her head. So, my perspective was from behind her. I could see my face, but only the back of her head, and I saw she had long brown hair. And she was talking like she does now. You guys know my daughter; she's very diplomatic. She doesn't just outright disagree; she'll try to negotiate and talk. And in the dream, that's what we were doing. I was saying something, and then she was saying, "But..." and "And..." And I woke up out of that dream, and something in my heart just was lit in terms of hope, and I just knew God is going to do this. And it was a confirmation through the dream that occurred.
So, was it like at that moment when you felt like, "Okay, this is for sure confirmation"? Was it in that moment? I want to say that I had the faith to think like that, but I would say that that was just hope. And with a situation like that, and you guys have probably been through similar things. So, a situation like that, you go between the two sometimes. On some days, you have more faith than others. So, I identify with the man who brought his son to Jesus. The disciples couldn't cast the devil out of his son, and he says, "Lord, I believe; but help my unbelief." So, when you're having fertility issues, on some mornings, you're going, "Okay, the Lord's going to do this. We're going to have a baby." You start picturing your future with children. You're visualizing what that might look like. And then on other days, you're hesitating to do that because you're wondering, "Am I just getting my hopes up?" So, I'll just say that that dream was, we could just call it hope that was needed along the way in my journey of coming to full belief in that miracle.
There was actually a point where we did end up saying, "We're just going to have faith. We're going to go the rest of our lives believing." And that's the decision that we made. I told her at one point, "We cried our tears. We've we've had our sorrow. We've felt the heaviness of this thing. From here on out, it's got to be faith."
How long? How long till after that vision or dream did you have Arya? It was about a year and a half. I want to say a couple of years. Two years to about a year and a half between that dream and when we found out we were having a daughter.
So, I got an interesting one. So, this was for sure a dream. Um, and I remember in this dream, it's so funny, like you think about dreams, you're never at a starting point, you're just in the middle of it. Yeah. And so, for this particular dream, it was pretty crazy 'cause, uh, I was on a stage, and there was a sea of people. And I remember looking around, I was me looking around, and I was hearing gunfire all around me. And I was worshiping. And I remember I was worshiping, and these people in this foreign country, they, I for sure could kind of make out they didn't believe in what I was doing. But, but they started speaking the name of Jesus. And I remember clearly seeing a couple of these people speaking the name of Jesus in their language. And then I remember them worshiping with me. And as this gunfire was going around, I was immensely afraid. Um, I remember I was afraid, but I felt comforted knowing that I wasn't going to get hit with like a straight bullet in this place. And I remember after the dream, I woke up in tears 'cause I was like, "What is that? How am I going to die?" You know, I thought in my mind, "Is that how I'm going to go out?" But then I thought, "No, I felt comfort in that." And to this day, I, you know, hopefully, well, not hopefully, but I don't know if it'll ever come to pass, but it could be spiritual. It could have been just a dream. But I know for sure that there was craziness around me, but I still felt comforted.
So, are you completely convinced that was a dream from the Lord as opposed to a vivid dream, or do you remain open to the possibility that it could have just been a vivid dream, and maybe you're adding some spiritual implications? I'm wondering. Yeah, it was so weird because I know exactly what I was wearing, which was odd. The shoes that I had on, the jacket that I had on, it was a leather. So, I had my brown boots, I had a leather jacket, I had my black jeans, kind of what I usually wear. And then I remember I had the microphone. I remember on the microphone, there was a little piece of tape. So, I was like, "Okay, this was set up by somebody." It was the weirdest thing. I'll remember to stand a few feet away from you if you're ever wearing that and we're in a foreign country. I'm ready. Lord, I'm ready.
Do you ever think that because you have positive dreams like that, for example, in your scenario with the, the dream where you said you had a conversation with a little girl, the same applies to a dream where it's a negative experience that you're also like, "Oh, this is also from the Lord," or it could be? You think those are also from the Lord? When it comes to negative experiences, you know, so now we'll get a little theological here. I, I try not to put too much stock in my dreams and visions. It's very rare that I will take a dream to mean something from the Lord. Now, that was an exception because not just because of how vivid it was or how coherent it was, but because I just sensed in my spirit, "This is was some, this was something that was being communicated to me." And that's why I was asking you, Steve, about what you felt because I'm genuinely curious. So, have you, have you figured out in, in your, in your own heart? Have you come to a consensus on where you land, or does it kind of, is it kind of still up in the air?
I think I, I do feel that it was something from the Lord. I do. I really do. Because again, it was so vivid, and I was in it, and I remember knowing that this chaos was around me, but I still felt comfort. And I remember worshiping, and I even felt like almost like this strength when I was like, like this pulse of just like courage while this crazy stuff was going on. And I just remember, again, obviously, it's a dream, but I woke up in tears, and I'm just thinking, like, "Man, this is a, that was a weird one 'cause I don't wake up in tears crying over a dream."
You just reminded me of something just a few nights ago. Um, and again, this is not me saying this is the Lord speaking, but on that subject of you waking up crying, I was, I had a dream that we were in an arena. And, you know, we just started doing arena events, and we're in an arena, you're singing, but you're on your face with the microphone singing. I was on my face crying, like weeping. You ever have one of those, like, really good cries where you're, you're just, you're just totally into it, right? So, I remember I could not just stop weeping before the Lord. I mean, I mean tears, and I'm gasping for air, and just like real tears. And you were singing. The worship was playing. It was, it was that unique sound that our ministry has, that, that, that, that sound on the pads and the violin, and that's playing. And the whole arena is filled with people, and they're just praying in tongues. And I remember I felt in the dream, like, this weight come upon me, and I could feel it like pressing on me, like, Mmm, just like an actual physical weight. And when I woke up, I wasn't crying, but I could feel the presence of God in the room.
Do you feel like that's like a general encouragement for the arena events, or possibly like a specific thing God's showing you about? Here's the thing. It, it could be God saying, "Here's what I'm going to do." It could also be that because I've so longed for a move of the Holy Spirit like that, and we are now seeing arenas being filled, that I had that dream. And this is where I think we have to be like a little bit balanced when we, not a little bit, we have to be balanced biblically, completely, uh, when it comes to the way we approach our dreams. Because on one hand, we have believers who will have a dream, and they're just convinced it is, like, it has to be God. I don't know if I ever told you about the woman who had, who woke up at 7:47. I don't think so. She woke up at 7:47, looked at her clock, saw 7:47, and said, "Surely it's the Lord telling me to get on a Boeing 7:47 and go be a missionary in..." and she just filled in the blank on the country, just off the top of her head, and just went and did that. Turns out it wasn't the Lord. She later found out. But that was like her, her whole, she gave herself over to that just from that. So, some Christians, I think, are in danger when they're not basing their lives on the word. Um, they're basing it off of, you know, a dream or a vision, which can be helpful, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that, kind of balancing all of that. But on the other hand, we have believers who are very apathetic toward the dreams, is constantly dismissing, "No, God doesn't speak through dreams," and that's not even biblical either. So, I try not to fall to either extreme. So, I'm always open to the possibility that I could be wrong.
Now, this is not the same thing as saying that God can get it wrong sometimes. I think this is where, like, people who criticize the idea that God can still speak to Christians, this is where they get it really wrong. Because often they assume that what we are saying when we say, "We missed it," or "Actually, it wasn't God," they hear that as, "Oh, you're saying God misspoke," or "You're saying God wasn't effective in communicating to you." But we're not saying that God isn't effective at communicating to us when he wants to communicate to us. We're saying that sometimes we, in our human frailty, think God is speaking to us when he's not. And so, it's not that we don't trust God to communicate when he's talking, it's that sometimes we might think he is when he isn't. And so, with that in mind, I try to just weigh it against scripture, pray these things through, and then I try not to stress about it. Like, if I get a dream and it's super vivid, like the one I had the other night about a UFO flying through the clouds, striking the ocean with lightning and causing a tsunami to come. And honestly, that sounds pretty well, it was just, it was a strange dream. And we were, I, we just got done ministering in Roswell, so I don't know, maybe that's where the dream came from. Go, but, but so, so, you know, I'm not going to, okay, maybe it's the Lord. But if it was the Lord speaking, he would have confirmed a message that would have been, um, uh, a knowing in, I call it the inner knowing in my spirit. The Holy Spirit would have confirmed that to me. So, I'm not going to obsess over, "What's this mean? What, I'm not going to go making a video on it, here's what the Lord showed me is coming." You know, it's just, I, I'll put it on the shelf. Maybe it's God, maybe it isn't. Maybe it represents something, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's a metaphor, maybe it isn't. I don't know. So, I'm open to the possibility that I could be getting it wrong, while also making sure that I'm comparing everything against the scripture.
Would you say, you talked about kind of like putting it on the shelf, do you think it's like a good kind of like healthy Christian practice if somebody has a dream like that, whether or not they're confident that it's the Lord, that they should write it down and kind of set it to the side, or do you think if it is the Lord, it's important enough, he'll let you know, you can just ignore the rest? I mean, I think the Holy Spirit can remind us of the things that we've forgotten because he sure did remind me of that dream I had of Arya. It wasn't until like sometime later, you know, I, I had it, I, I accepted it, I was encouraged by it, and then years later, while having a very similar conversation with Arya to what I had in my dream, I realized, "This is it." It was something. I think it was something like playtime. I said, "Arya, listen, right now, you need to go to bed." And she would, she'll say, "Dad, hold on. Let's make a deal. How about we stay downstairs, we'll play for five minutes, then we will read a story, and then I will go to bed." And I, and she goes, "I go, but baby, no, you have to go to bed right now." She goes, "But, but, but if we do that, I promise I'll go right to sleep. I won't ask a question. I won't ask for a story." Like, she's negotiating. And I'm like, "Okay, that sounds like a good deal." And we made the, and then I realized, "Okay, here's, here's one of those moments."
Go ahead. Go ahead. I feel like, like we as Christians and believers, you know, we work in the spirit realm, we believe in the supernatural and stuff like that. I feel like though, like it'd be great to have like a spiritual checklist. Like, if you have a dream, obviously write it down or whatever, but you can go to the word. I mean, is there anything like that practical that people can use or kind of glean off of when trying to interpret their own dream? It's funny that you, you say that because I do have some notes here. And to the people who are hearing this, we did not pre-arrange that question. But I actually do have a checklist of how to tell if your dreams are, are of the Lord. And it's not, it's not a sure-fire way. I'm not saying this is 100%, you know, follow this and you'll get it right every time. Saying these are good guidelines from scripture. We'll get into, uh, remind me to do that in a few minutes. Um, but, uh, you know, in terms of making sure we're not missing out on a message from God, we, we do trust that he's going to ultimately get through to us when he wants to, and if he's trying to communicate with us through a dream or a vision. So, let me just give you some biblical precedent for that. And then maybe we'll cover a little bit of that in just a moment. Uh, but I'm also interested as to what you guys have to say on the subject. Um, so let's take a look at Acts 2:17-18. "In the last days," God says, "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy." Well, everyone is a son or a daughter. "Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. In those days, I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants, men and women alike, and they will prophesy." So, there's a New Testament reference. Another New Testament reference, uh, can be found in 2 Corinthians 12. I'll read verses 1-4. "This boasting will do no good, but I must go on. I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord. I was caught up to the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don't know—only God knows. Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body, but I do know that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell." So, here, Paul the Apostle is describing a vision that he had of the third heaven. Now, some might say, "Well, that was Paul's experience, and the Bible isn't saying that we're going to have similar ones." And I would agree with that point to some degree. However, the nature of God has not changed, and he has not stopped interacting with his people. So, there's no basis to say that visions in general have stopped, especially when you couple that truth together, or excuse me, when you couple that consideration together with Acts chapter 2.
I was going to say, um, would you classify déjà vu as like a dream or vision, considering it's something you've sensed or witnessed in your, in your mind, and you're like, "Oh man, this is it. I witnessed this"? You know, the Bible doesn't say anything about it, so I don't really have an opinion that's very strong. I have my guesses. I have my thoughts. What's your guesses and thoughts? My guess, my guess is that it's more of a feeling than it is a reality. It's a feeling of familiarity. Maybe your mind subconsciously picks up on different things around you that you've experienced before, or the moment is somewhat similar to something else that you've experienced before. Um, but I don't think that it's actually. I had someone tell me, like, "Oh, it's a memory from heaven." I'm thinking, "Okay, well, I don't know if there's any biblical basis for that, so I'm not going to go and and say that." But I will say that I think it's a, it's a psychological phenomenon. I could be wrong. I'm open to that because the scripture is not really giving us any clear insight as to what. No, no, there are no specific mentions of that anywhere in the Bible. So, I, as a teacher of the word, am not going to give a dogmatic answer. I'm not going to, I'm not going to present my best guess as if this is the truth. But I am open to other explanations for sure.
So, here's like an interesting thing that I was thinking about. So, my wife, she's funny. She has a dream version of me, and for some reason, sometimes dream Steve gets her upset. And so she wakes up, she says, "I can't believe what you did in my dream." I'm like, "What did I do? Like, what, what?" But I say that because I know people have said to you, to me, "Wow, brother, you've came to me in this dream. This is what this means." Like, how do you even go about like dealing with that? I don't deal with it at all. I just say, "That's interesting," and I move on. Because I don't know what to say to that. People tell me all, and this is, I don't know if I told you about this, what in the comment section on YouTube, Facebook, and probably even in the comment section under this video, people constantly tell me, and I've told this to my pastor friends, preacher friends, I said, "Has this happened to you a lot?" They said, "That doesn't happen at all." But this happens to me so frequently. You've seen it. People come up to us all the time. You see it in the comments. I know Josh does the comments, he probably sees it a lot. People come to me or they'll comment, "Brother David, you were in my dream last night." Mmm. And they describe, they start speaking in tongues, or they feel the presence of God, or in their dream, they get healed. I had, there was one guy, you remember this, up in Northern California? Oh, yeah. He was, he was dying. Yeah. He was dying. Uh-huh. And he had a dream. I, I don't remember the exact details. We can ask, uh, Mama Sophia, the details. She's the one who sent me the testimony. And then I talked to the guy when we were in Northern California. He was dying in real life, and he says he was asking God to heal him. And in his dream, I came and prayed for him.
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I, I, I don't remember the exact details. We can ask, uh, Mama Sophia, the details. She's the one who sent me the testimony. And then I talked to the guy when we were in Northern California. He was dying in real life, and he says he was asking God to heal him. And in his dream, I came and prayed for him. That's crazy. And he woke up healed. Jeez. Oh, wow. And I'm thinking, "Okay, Lord, I know that in the book of Acts, that you can translate people. They can move from place to place. Maybe when I'm praying in tongues, that's what's happening. Maybe when I'm having these dreams where I'm in the presence of God, that's what he's doing." I don't know. Uh, my guess, because again, I don't want to get into dangerous grounds here, my guess is that the Lord is just using what they understand in a metaphoric sense. Uh, so I'm thinking maybe because people are familiar with me, some of them, not all of them, the people who have these dreams of are familiar with me, the Lord uses that as a metaphor for what they understand to be, you know, a representation of the church, or the Lord reaching out, or ministry in general. And so that we get, but again, it's to the point where it became noticeable, and it's been happening the last few years, and I go, "This is just very strange." Wonder if it's because they just watch so much content. But I mean, even though they're experiencing great things, they just watch so much of your content that they just put a face to it. I'm like, "Oh, it's David coming in my dreams praying for me." And again, just to be clear, I'm not saying, you know, I'm some special. I'm just, I'm just, I really am perplexed. And when you brought that up, it just reminded me of all those instances.
On the note of, because we're kind of talking about this blend between people's kind of experience and then what God's actually doing through that, and how there's maybe could be a little bit of mix, I thought I always think this, uh, scripture I heard somebody bring it up one time, and it kind of tripped me out to think about. In Acts, when Paul gets the dream about preaching to the, the Gentiles, yes, it says that, um, uh, the next day, as Cornelius's messengers were nearing the town, Peter went up on the flat roof to pray. It was about noon. And he was hungry. But while a meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the sky open and something like a large sheet was came down. And a voice said, "Peter, get up, kill and eat." So, he was hungry, fell into a trance, dreamed about food. But God actually was speaking to him about the Gentiles. That's a great observation. So, and it's a perfect, it's a perfect leeway into what I was going to share here. I promised this a few minutes ago. I'll do this now. So, I'm going to share these with you guys, and then I want your thoughts on a list I've compiled. Just three, three key indicators that a dream could be from the Lord. And I say "could be" because again, you have to allow the Lord to, to speak as he will. Okay. Number one: It's going to be clear and coherent. And we see this in Genesis 40:8. "And they replied, 'We both had dreams last night, but no one can tell us what they mean.' Interpreting dreams is God's business." Joseph replied, "Go ahead and tell me your dreams." Now, when I say clear and coherent, I don't always mean complete. Because you can have a piece of a message that God is trying to give to you, but you can rest assured that the piece of the message he gives you will have a coherency to it. Now, I'm not saying perfect clarity. I'm not saying you understand all the symbolism, but there's a status quality to the dream. There's a, it's a stable dream. It's not necessarily going to be so out of order, so all over the place, that there really is no chronology or anything like that. And I'm not saying everything has to be in perfect chronological order. I think you guys get it. Just there has to be a certain stability so that it can be tested. Okay, that's number one. And of course, to the world, not so much to the church, yes, we always know. Number two: It has to be biblical. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." So, ultimately, the message that is derived from this dream is going to be consistent with a biblical teaching or with biblical teaching in general. Number three: Faith-producing. Romans 10:17 says, "So faith comes from hearing, that is hearing the good news about Christ." Now, the context of Romans here is the gospel, and those who hear the gospel receive the faith to believe the gospel. But after you consider the context, the takeaway principle is that the word produces faith for what it promises. So, when God communicates something in a dream, he produces the faith to receive what he's speaking. So, there's going to be a faith-like quality. Not necessarily fear. Now, even if it's a warning, you'll be given the faith or the instruction to correct it. But there's an action item, a response to God involved in this. Um, maybe God's telling you to pray for someone. Yeah, you may feel a check in your spirit, maybe a little bit of a heaviness when you're considering other people, but at least there's the faith in that God is giving you this dream so that he can warn you on their behalf so that you can pray. And there's always going to be hope and restoration attached to that. Now, I've heard this often said that, well, if it's a dream from the Lord, you're always going to have peace. And I agree with that, but I don't necessarily agree with the way that people interpret that. So, I agree that you'll always have peace. Well, what is peace? Peace is stable confidence in who God is. But peace doesn't always mean that you feel good. Peace doesn't always mean that there's no, um, there's no fear. Like in your dream, I think of Abram when he was given a vision, uh, concerning the children of Israel, that they would be in slavery for 400 years. Well, when he had that dream, there was great dread that came on him. And so, that doesn't necessarily mean that emotions will always be positive ones, but it does mean that under all of that, there will always be this confidence.
Would you apply those same points to when you're receiving a prophetic word? I would. Okay. Because I'm just curious because you sometimes, you've unfortunately, you see it online, prophets giving a word, but it's not so clear to the point where they can describe everything that they have that word for that individual. They're saying, "I see this and this in your life," but it's not clear. It's like, "Okay, I don't know what that meant 'cause it was all over the place." Yeah. Well, the Bible tells us that we are to test prophecy. How can we test prophecy if it's so elusive that we don't even know what we're hearing? And I think to some degree, this has become troubling to me, speaking strictly of the prophetic. And this isn't everyone, and I'm not discounting the prophetic ministry, but the reality is that that sometimes prophetic ministry just kind of becomes these vague descriptions and imagery and just very ethereal ideas. Something they're elusive, they can't, they're not solid, they're not coherent. So, that in hindsight, if anything seems to match that, it can be counted as somewhat of a vindication for the individual speaking that. So, in other words, "Let me throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks." And that to me is troubling. I'm not saying that's the intent. Um, and, and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Uh, but that happens a lot today.
So, would you say, like going back on, like the dreams, and you know, when you're talking about a dream, or when you're in, in someone else's dream, is that just because again, like Reuben was saying, throughout the day, they're consuming content, or let's say if I were to do a test and just only look at a tree all day, would I dream possibly about that tree? Like, how does that all correlate? Like, like even Britt was saying, how it's like a meshing of the reality, but your dream state. And to me, it's just like, where do you take that? Where do you go with all that? Like, especially if it's super vague, like in, in that. Well, if there's no immediate place to take that, I would say put it on the shelf. That again, becomes, at least, you know, you've acknowledged it, you said, "Okay, this could be the Lord speaking to me. Let me pray this through. Let me apply these. Is it, is it, uh, clear? And is it biblical? Is it faith-producing? Is there a purpose for it?" And then, if, if that hasn't been found, and you're not seeing that come, come to the forefront, you put it on the shelf, and you don't stress about it. I, I get messages, some people, all the time, "Brother David, I had a dream, and, you know, I don't know." They'll describe something like, "And I was talking to an angel, but it wasn't an angel, and the angel had had weird teeth, and the angel was driving a car, but then it wasn't a car, but then we were on a boat, and then we were fishing, and Jesus handed me a fish, and we ate the fish, and then I was at a hotel, and the air conditioner broke." And I'm like, "Okay, okay, I'm trying to track with this." And they'll say, "And I just, I just don't know what God is speaking. I'm really worried. Please help me." I said, "Okay, well, how long ago did you have this dream?" And often it's something like, "Well, this was like four or five years ago." And I'm going, "Okay, let's, let's assess where we are. You believe God wanted to communicate something to you through a dream. You've not received that message yet." "A, don't you think God is perfectly capable of communicating through a dream effectively?" They say, "Yes." "So, don't you think that if the dream was actually from God, he would communicate to you the meaning?" They say, "Yes." I say, "Therefore, if after all these years, after praying and fasting, you've yet to receive the information that would give you the meaning of this dream from the Lord, isn't it safe to say that maybe it was just a dream?" And they're so afraid of accepting that as a possibility because, in their mind and heart, they feel that that's a betrayal or like they're now ignoring the Lord. And that is, that's a fear-based approach to interpreting our dreams. And if I wanted to, um, if I was, you know, just, if I didn't care about them, I would just make something up and, and, you know, they'd be impressed with me, and we'd move on, and they'd be happy with their answer, and we'd move on. But, but my bigger concern would be trying to help them address the issues that made them so worked up about a dream that they didn't understand in the first place.
Do you think that's one of the like biggest causes of people not clearly walking in the voice of God is just the fact that they fear that they're missing God? Yes. And again, that comes back down to this idea that hearing God is up to me. And this is why I tell Christians, "Hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit isn't a skill to be acquired; it's a sense to be sharpened." By that, I mean that you already have the ability to hear the Holy Spirit. You already have the ability to hear from God in dreams. And so, you trust that the Lord will speak in those times. Again, it comes, for me, it always comes back to that balance: grounded on the word and not being so dismissive that you miss these little moments where the Lord clearly was speaking to you, but you're too stubborn to admit it because you don't believe he can speak that way. And then the other extreme would be obsessing over every dream that you have and becoming filled with fear and angst and tension because you never get the interpretation. I think, you know, after a week or two, if you haven't received that, that, that week or two caveat, that's my opinion, that's not scripture. But, you know, a week goes by, I, I'm sure if you're praying, you're fasting, you're asking the Lord, you have the Holy Spirit, he's going to give you that. He's not just going to keep that meaning from you and then punish you for not knowing what it meant. That just doesn't make any sense.
What do you guys think about, so there's obviously the prophetic nature of dreams, and then there's also like, um, God gives you his word, like you were saying, to produce the faith. Do you think there's any type of dynamic between when you receive either a dream or a vision and you see something happening, if it's a, a statement or a promise, you know what I mean? Like a statement, "Hey, this is in your future," and because you see that, you just walk into it? Or is it a dream or vision to give you the faith to step towards that? I think for, like, I was sharing, the dream that I shared, I think it was almost a little blend of both. Because, like, I know, again, I was surrounded, right? And there was chaos around me, but I felt peace. And I did really feel like that was the Lord kind of telling me, "Look, I got you. No matter what, no matter where you go, no matter how hard it gets, I got you. Just sing." And I think that's kind of where I lean more towards is more of the promise, in my personal opinion, for that specific dream I had was, "Hey, this is the promise I have for you." Now, again, who knows? We may end up somewhere in some foreign country where someone starts shooting some guns off, and I'll be like, "Oh, Lord, this is too much, man." But beautiful way to go. Guess I do lean more on that idea of, "Hey, this is a promise I've given you. Just sing." Yeah.
Does Jesus still appear in our individual dreams? You have to define what you mean, the literal man, up the literal man, Jesus himself? Because I see it all the time, "Jesus appeared to me. He had long brown hair, had a beard." And I'm like, "Wait, that sounds like the Jesus I've seen on TV, right?" But who knows what he looks like? Obviously, there's research and all that. But does he still truly appear in our dreams, physically appear? I think it would be biblically consistent to say that it's a possibility that he does. This doesn't necessarily mean that I believe every account of him having done so. And again, this comes back to, what is it that guides our life? And it always comes back to the word. Okay, Jesus appeared to you in the dream, great. And maybe that affected them so profoundly that now they've converted. Like, you hear of, um, many Muslims coming to the Lord Jesus because of the dreams that they're having of him, and they're now converting to Christ. I think those are legitimate. I think those are that's a real phenomenon, uh, that is divine in nature. So, yes, it can happen. Yes, it does happen. But I'm still very reserved in believing every single story. And this doesn't mean that I'm cynical. It just means that I have a, a healthy testing. There has to be this healthy testing of these, these claims that are being made. And, you know, in our services all the time, people are having visions during the worship, people are getting healed, people are getting delivered. And we want, we know because it's our ministry that we're, we're asking the people, we're interviewing the people, we're talking to them, and so forth. Um, but I think just in general, don't be cynical, but also don't be gullible. Just be open to the fact that God does these things often. And if it is God, praise God. If it isn't, okay, leave it in the Lord's hands and move on. Yeah, I'm on the same boat. It's a possibility. But I also think, what if about these people? What about they were just binge-watching The Chosen before they went to sleep? I have no idea. It's kind of, it's hard to believe every single story. Well, yeah, and I, I wouldn't believe every single story. And, and I, I would be, and again, this, this comes back down to the word, the word, the word, the word. I'll sound like a broken record. But dreams and visions, again, it's a great. And actually, I'll share kind of this analogy. This will help you put this into perspective. So, when you're building a house, first the foundation goes down, and then they build the framework with with the lumber, then they add the the materials like the drywall, the electrical, the plumbing, and so forth. Well, some of the plumbing's in the foundation, but you get what I'm saying for the sake of analogy. And then after that, then you're worried about countertops and flooring and window types and so forth. And so, I would liken that building process to the spiritual realm. The foundation is the word. That framing of lumber, that's wisdom. The materials that go on, we're talking about the drywall, the plumbing, the electrical, all of those, you know, those, those things that come after that framing, that to me would be the whispers of the spirit, where he's speaking directly to my heart. And then the decor, the countertops, the flooring, those are the wonders. Those are the signs. Those are the miracles. Those are the, the dreams and the visions. Often people who believe in dreams and visions, people who believe in miracles, people who preach that Jesus can heal you, deliver you, people like me, were criticized as hyper-focusing on miracles or being all about miracles or making the gospel all about healing. But I wouldn't at all consider the mention of healing and miracles as a hyper-focus on it. Um, but they do have their proper place. You have to make sure they are not becoming the primary way in which you think you hear and experience God. So, a lot of Christians have that in reverse. They live their life by the wonders and the whisper, and they treat wisdom and the word like it's a secondary means of hearing God, or even worse, some believe that the word and wisdom blocks them from experiencing God as they truly should. And that's just a foolish way to approach it. So, you start with the word. The word produces wisdom in you, and that's God's reasoning within you, where you're using God's divine wisdom to make decisions and process circumstances and situations. And then after that, the Holy Spirit speaks specific instructions to your heart. And then beyond that, he also, uh, does miracles, signs, wonders, phenomena, dreams, visions. But again, we have to get it in the proper order. If you reverse the foundation, then anytime anyone claims anything, you're just going to be swept up by it. Why even dreams and visions?
So, I mean, so we talked about like the different levels of the foundation. And I know God can just, I mean, why trees, right? You know, like, chose to create things. But, but what, what do you think it is about, if any particular reason, that we can see from scripture or just your opinion, why that kind of faculty of when we're sleeping, in the mind, or the visions capturing that more internal sense of sight, why that, when he could just give us stronger wisdom, just speak audibly, things like that? Because I believe every aspect of our being was designed to respond to God, including our sleep state. And I think there are some advantages to that. I would guess, though, I don't speak for God on this, I would guess that there are fewer distractions. Perhaps God is trying to speak those things, uh, in that way to us in, in that part of the mind, but we're just too distracted to listen to what, because we're stubborn in our own way, and we refuse to lend our spiritual ear to God. Um, maybe God is just working beyond those distractions. I don't know. We could guess at that. Uh, but, uh, but to your point, why make trees? Why make creation the way it is? This is just how he says he does it. And so, it's not up to us to question that. We just, it's a good question, but I mean, question it in like the cynical, "Why would you speak through dreams and visions?" Well, he's God. He could do what he wants. And that's one of the ways the scripture describes, uh, as a form of divine communication. So, you're speaking about obviously dreams, something, something that I feel like a lot of people can kind of, or a lot of Christians can kind of get a little convoluted on is visions. Visions, is it a dream but not a dream? Or is it just this state of where you just go into this meditative state, like Britt was explaining earlier, and you see something? I've, I've experienced it my own way, but I don't know. I would say that a vision is like a really stable daydream. There are, when I, when I get a vision from the Lord, and it's not often. I mean, I believe the Holy Spirit guides this ministry. I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to me through the word, but it's not every day that the heavens are opening and I'm getting a vision. It's not every day that the Holy Spirit is giving me these ultra-specific instructions. I believe God does those things, uh, as is necessary to guide us. And as long as we're obeying the word and walking in wisdom, he doesn't necessarily have to use those other means, though he can, and whenever he wants to. Again, we're not putting limits on the Lord. We couldn't if we tried. Um, but to me, in those moments, it's like I'm, I'm looking. And that's the best way I can describe it, like a daydream, to where you kind of retreat into your own.
Thoughts and though you are looking, and though you can see with the natural eyes, it's almost like that fades into the background. And whatever you're seeing that the Lord is showing you becomes this vivid, like a, like almost like that. You know, we all have that screen in our minds that we call it, like a movie screen where we picture things. And so that's, that's the way I would describe it, where like it'll, it'll appear in front of me, not physically, but in my mind.
And and there have been times where I was like, like I was praying for a pastor in the Midwest. Uh, this is when I was just starting to preach. I don't know why the Lord gave me such a vivid vision for this family. Uh, but I'm praying and for the pastor in his house. This is during a Bible study type setting and praying in his house.
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I don't know why the Lord gave me such a vivid vision for this family. Uh, but I'm praying and for the pastor in his house. This is during a Bible study type setting and praying at his house. And I said, "Pastor, I don't know why I want to pray for, for, do you know a woman who drives a silver car who needs a healing? I don't know why I'm seeing a woman in a silver car and that she needs healing." His jaw dropped. He goes, "That's my sister. She drives a silver car and she was just in a car accident with that car. Now she needs a healing." That's like, "Call her on the phone right now. Called her. Prayed for her."
Now, I can't make that happen. I can't, I can't teach a course on how to have more. I don't even know how that happened. I'm praying and I just saw it and I just say what I see. I can't control the word of knowledge. I can't control prophecy. I cannot control healing. I cannot control visions. It's the Lord. All I can do is obey and say, "Lord, I believe you. I'm open to it and I'd like to see more of it. Trust me with more miracles. Trust me with more visions." And He's ultimately the one who decides to do it. It's, it's as simple as trust and obey. Trust and obey. And the Lord does it.
And so I don't know why the Lord showed me that. It was, I saw it. It was, again, I'm praying and there it was, a silver car and a woman standing next to it. And I said, "Well, I got to say something about this." Yeah.
Going back to what Brit was saying, I think it's more so, at least my interpretation, I think it's vision and dreams because it's almost in a sense like more tangible. Like you, like you got to see it to believe it. So like if I get a vision or dream of it, I'm able to visualize like what God is actually telling me, like this next season in my life or whatever it may be that God is speaking to you. I think that's probably why it's more visions than dreams because you're able to actually visualize what He's saying to you, what He has for you.
And my question to you guys is, going back a little bit, do you guys think that God will bless somebody's act because they received the dream or vision and they thought it was God, even though it wasn't, but it's somewhat godly? Like, example of that lady with the 747. Like, imagine if God told me, "Get on a 747, travel to Africa, go start a church plant or something and minister to the lost." Do you guys think God will bless that, even though it probably wasn't Him and I was just so caught up in that word or vision or dream?
I would assess the individual first because, let me be careful about the way I say this, because there might be, I don't want, I don't want anyone to misunderstand it and then be led astray. So I'll say this first. We have to assess how much influence does the flesh have. MH. Because sometimes we want to go after these things, we tell ourselves because it's the Lord, but we know deep in our heart it's because we want them. MH. Or because we are impatient, or because, I don't know, you name it. Maybe we're bitter against someone. We have a dream and in the dream, you know, they have sharp teeth and, oh, that's proof. See, the Lord told me you're, you, you know, you're demonic. And and that's that. Now I got to cut you off. And now I'm acting on that. Well, God's not going to bless that. You see what I'm saying? It's, it's your bitterness manifesting in a dream, and then you getting your confirmation bias, calling it faith, and then acting out in disobedience while feeling righteous for it. So that, we have to be careful of. Very nuanced way to go about that for sure.
And then there are those instances where maybe, maybe it's something as simple as you saw a vision of, I don't know, a mission field, so you went on a mission trip. Or you saw a vision of you handing the pastor a gift, and so you, you go and you give the pastor a gift. Or you saw a vision of blessing someone with a car, so you give away your car to them. I know people who've done these kinds of things. Um, yes, I think God does bless those things as long as they're consistent with the word, as long as they're coming from a place of pure motives. Now, we have to be careful because practically speaking, we can destroy our own lives. Like if you need that car to get to work and feed your kids and you give it away, it wasn't the Lord. Probably going to struggle for a little bit because of it. But I believe God takes note of that. I believe He looks at the heart. Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. God looks at the motives. God looks at the faith and the trust and somebody saying, "I think this might be God. I'm not so sure. So I'm going to act in faith and do it anyway." I think the Lord is pleased, at least with that heart. Now, He may be saying, like, "Oh, you know, that's not necessary. No, that's not what I have for you." And He will send those warnings.
So the question, I think I reverse it back at you, is if they truly are walking in faith and trust, would they miss those warnings of the Lord saying, "No, this is not me"? And I think this is why again, we have to be careful and come back to the word, the word, the word, and wisdom. And then, of course, as you're seasoned, you start to become, and I don't mean seasoned like you've been a Christian for several years or you know the Bible real well. I mean seasoned like you're walking with the Lord and you begin to really know His voice. And I mean truly, truly know it. Not, not, I know His voice in, in a, an overconfident way and I think I do and I, I want to feel like I'm spiritual so I want to claim that. But but truly walking with Him humbly and knowing His voice, you start to familiarize yourself with His voice in that way. And I think He is going to give you some of those instructions sometimes. But again, I think it always comes back to the word.
So here's a, here's a thought I've always had in regards to, you know, the dream quest, right? God, you feel like God is telling you to go here. Is it wise or is it something you should do to seek godly counsel? But I want to be careful because I think, okay, if they have your best interest, or maybe they don't have your best interest at hand, they could be, I don't know, steering you the wrong way in that dream or in that vision or whatever God is calling you to do. Like, do you seek godly counsel? Do you go to your pastor, say, "Hey, I had this. What does it mean?" And is it healthy for you to do that? I mean, that's a big question because I, I, I, I can't answer that in the general sense and I wouldn't because I don't know everybody's pastor, right? I don't know everybody's leader. I don't know, you, you may go to a church that they'll say, they'll tell you, they'll lie to you unknowingly and say, "Well, God doesn't speak through dreams and visions." Okay, well, that's trouble on its own for sure. But I mean, you go to, you, I mean, it comes down to, can you trust godly leaders in your life? And and that's just something you have to answer on a case-by-case scenario for your own self.
You guys currently sit on a dreamer vision that you believe is God, but it just hasn't come to pass. Um, probably the one I shared earlier. Again, I, I know it's God. I don't know if it'll ever come to pass, to be honest.
How do you know it's God for certain? Like, have you had it interpreted? I'm just curious.
I've never had it interpreted, but again, when I woke up, I woke up weeping, but I felt comfort in it. And it wasn't like doom and gloom, like, "This is how I'm going to die." After I thought about it, "Dang, maybe that's how I am going to go out." But I don't know. But overall, when, if I could sum it up, I felt comfort knowing that all this craziness was around, but God still had my back. I would say, or like He was with me in that moment.
If you had, if you had to give an answer, yeah, would you say it's a metaphor or a literal?
I would say lean more on metaphor.
I would. What would you think that metaphor meant?
That no matter what I do, I have to keep singing, keep going. Because that's what I felt at the end of it. Because again, the dream was, there was gunfire all around me. I had the microphone and I was singing, but I was afraid. But I felt comfort. Every time I started singing a word, it was just like, "Voom!" Like I got another, like, ounce of strength or or protection. It's like a bubble that was growing as I was continuing to press into the worship moment.
So I want to ask you a question along with that. Um, Katherine Kuhlman said something one time. I think she was tired from calls and just ministry work or something, and there's like this kind of like story that she threw up her hands and was like, "God, why didn't you give this to me when I was like super young and never ran out of energy?" And then and then she felt like God, you know, she says that God spoke to her that He, she would have messed the whole thing up. So do you think there's also an element of God doesn't give dreams and visions sometimes because we might take the wrong course with that dream and vision? Might make it about us? Might not have the faith?
Well, again, that goes back to trusting the Lord to communicate. If God is giving you a dream or vision, He's going to know how to communicate to you clearly. That's one of the reasons why I say it's going to be clear and coherent. Because if it is God, He's going to make it apparent to you what it means. If not right away, then in a timely manner. And if not in a timely manner, well, God always does things in a timely manner. But if not in an immediate manner, then He's not going to hold you accountable if you just set it aside for the, write it down, say, "Okay, Lord, I prayed about it. I didn't get anything out of it. Let me put this aside." But again, getting hung up on those things and just stuck there, that's where the damage begins to happen, unfortunately.
I think so many people will listen to this podcast, hear you talk about how to interpret it as best as possible using the word, but still go, "It's the Lord. It has to be the Lord." Because they just want to hold on to it. I can't, I can't help, unfortunately. Yeah, I can't. Someone who gets stuck there. All I can do, and this is, this is one of the heartbreaking things about ministry, is you can, what do they say? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And I often believe that you can, you can lead someone to truth, but you can't make them accept it. Um, they have to make that choice. And so, for example, we can, we can go through other topics like, like this. There was the other one that I taught on a while ago, uh, Christians and demonization. Can Christians have a demon? Absolutely not. And no amount of changing the definition of quote, "having a demon," end quote, is going to make that true. But no matter how much scripture you present, MH, no matter how many explanations you give for the things that people experience, they're going to come back to, "No, no, no. I, I, I believe they can." Well, why? The Bible? Well, you don't have anything in scripture for that. Why? Because if you're experienced, well, here's a better way to interpret your experience based on scripture. MH. You give that to them, and they just go, "No." Why? Because it's, it's human nature to find it difficult to admit when you got something wrong. And so, I forgot how the phrase goes. It's something like, "It's easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled." MH. And so I think that's the case here.
Now, I hope it doesn't come across too harsh, but it is important to note that people get stuck there and obsessed. Like, "No, I truly believe I know this is a little in scripture." Do you have anything to indicate that it's consistent with biblical messaging? Well, no. Do you have any, is there any meaning that the Lord's revealed to you in that? Well, no. Well, don't you think the Lord would reveal it to you if it was from Him? And then it's off to some other thing. And it's, it's very hard to get people to to accept that truth. Eventually, people do. Yeah, but it's after, you know, months or sadly, even years of just anguish. And and but again, I think that comes back to a deeper issue. That's a root. There's a root issue there. Um, for example, I have people messaging me on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Did I commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? And I can walk them through scripture and show them how it's not possible for a born-again believer to commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Then they'll go, "Oh, okay. I feel much better." And then one week later, come back with something else they're really obsessed with and worried about.
Now, this is not a criticism of people. This is a diagnosis. And again, it's heartbreaking. So I don't, I hope I'm not coming across as factious or in any way mocking that people in that situation. Cuz that was me at one point. I know what that feels like. Um, but again, it's this obsessive thinking, this, this, this unable to train the mind, unable to focus, unable to ground yourself in the word, being emotional while being unable to admit that you're being emotional, mistakenly thinking you hear the voice of God while being unable to admit that you're not actually hearing Him in some instances, not all. Tying your whole identity around being accurate in hearing His voice. So that if anyone says, "Maybe you didn't hear from God," they go, "No, I know that." They get offended by that.
To this day, I'll tell you, I, in fact, just the other day, I was texting a pastor friend of mine. I said, "I can hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. I know His voice when I hear it. But right now, I can't hear it for this specific situation because my emotions are too tight into it." I said, "I can't. I'm so emotional. I said, I'm so emotional about this that I cannot hear clearly." He's speaking. I know He's speaking clearly, but I'm all tangled up in myself to where I'm going to, I'm going to, I need some wisdom and guidance. And so the pastor text me back a really long, uh, you know, piece of guidance. And I was like, "Okay, that feels right to me." And just confirming, "Okay, that confirms what, what I know to be actually the Holy Spirit." But I had to untangle myself out of it. Um, and I, by that, I don't mean I was on my own doing it. I mean that I had to remove myself. I had to get untangled from my emotions. And so we, as we have to be humble in admitting that we get it wrong sometimes.
I don't know where this comes from. This, this like, again, I, I, I'll be the first one to say, I know the voice of the Holy Spirit when He speaks and speaks clearly. No doubt. You guys have seen it in the services where I'll stand up and say, "Somebody here is dealing with this, a very specific situation." And I'll say, "I know that I know that I know that you're here, and you're not going to convince me that you're not." Well, you guys have seen it 100% of the time. Somebody comes up and says, "That's me." Okay, I thought so. But I don't do that unless I know that I know that I know. But I can admit, and we all should be able to admit, when we're so emotional, when we're so worried, when we're so confused and wrapped up in our own thinking, we have to be willing to admit when we don't know.
So do you feel like it's almost like ego that gets in the way then with a lot of these believers? Because again, I've heard it countless times. People come up to you and come up to us and say, "I heard this from the Lord. This was from the Lord." And I'm hearing what they're saying. I'm like, "Okay, I'm not going to interpret it, but let's get some guidance here and wisdom." So like, could it be ego that gets in the way of that too? Like you're saying ego, emotions?
Yeah, I mean, that's, and by ego, we don't just mean pride, we mean self. And that could be, you know, you're so afraid of getting it wrong that you just can't let it go. You're so sure you, you know the voice of God that you just can't let it go. And that's pride. Um, and there, there's many other emotions that could be involved in it. Now, to be clear, because I do want to balance this, you know, you can know the voice of the Holy Spirit with confidence and clarity. But I'm also saying that there are times when we miss it, and we have to be willing to admit that to ourselves. Otherwise, we get so caught up in these, how do I want to say it? These, these, um, these moments of these episodes of religious OCD where we just get stuck on things and we get stuck for years. And here's the thing, once you solve that one issue and you're like, "Relieved," and say, "Okay, that's solved." You're going to jump on another thing until you learn to address the fear in which you are operating. And that is fear. That's a fear-based operation. When you're, you're obs, fear is obsessive. Fear is obsessive. So if you're obsessive about things, just, just consume. Not, not in like a, like a loving way, like, "I'm obsessed with Jesus." Not like that. I'm talking like, like it's, it's this tension, it's this torment, it's this angst, it's this flurry of thoughts that make it hard to focus. And you're just, you're, you're panicky. "I need answers right now, right now, right now. I need to talk to someone right now, right now, right now. I need, I need someone to pray with me right now, right now, right now." There's fear. Yeah, that's fear. And you are operating from that fear. Yeah.
Unfortunately, I think so many people are so desperate to believe that that was truly the Lord, and they just can't. Unfortunately, like they just can't let it go. They want to believe so badly that it was the Lord, so they need somebody to interpret it, to confirm it. This is where they can go, "Oh, yes, it was right." And then when they probably finally receive confirmation, someone just goes along with it and goes, "Yeah, that was the Lord." They probably have no resolve. Almost like it fuels the fire for them to, "Oh, no, see, this was God. This was Him." Because I finally got my confirmation after going to 30 different pastors, and then one pastor agrees. So now I'm like, "Okay, this is it." And then that could set their whole life.
Yeah, but again, it comes back to balance. Because sometimes God is speaking through those dreams, and we're so sure He isn't saying anything that we just ignore Him. Yeah. Uh, what we're covering, and I want to make sure that we're not misleading any listeners. We're not saying that if you believe God spoke to you in a dream, that you got that wrong. We're talking about specifically those individuals who believe God spoke to them to a dream, hang on to this dream for like months or years, are worried because they can't get an interpretation for this dream, and then become obsessed. We're talking about a very specific case here. Um, but it is common though. It's very specific. It's actually more common than people would realize. We're saying it's okay to say, "Lord, it's in Your hands. Lord, I may not get it now, but I'll give it to You." As opposed to like, "This, I need this now. Lord, you got it. You got..." They're coming again. It's very, like, even when I get like the message like, "Pastor David, please, here's the dream. Reply now. I need to hear from you. This is important. This is urgent." And then they even go to like, guilt and manipulation. "Jesus responded to everyone. How come you're not replying?" You know? And it's like, "Okay, well, I haven't even read it yet." Or sometimes I'll read a message and go, "Okay, I got to get back to this. I'll mark it as unread." And they'll get back to me saying, "Pastor David, you ignored my message. How could you do that? Aren't you a man of God?" I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness, this person really needs help." And again, my, my, my compassion is like, I wish I could help every single one of these. And that's why I'm so passionate about sharing messages like I am now. That you be careful with this. Be balanced. Ultimately, you hear God from the word. That gives you wisdom. The Holy Spirit will speak to your heart through whispers. And sometimes God speaks through dreams and visions. When He does, they're going to be clear and coherent. They're going to be biblically aligned. And they're going to be faith-producing. Simple. If you don't get that immediately, you keep, you, you move on and you say, "Okay, Lord, I trust You to speak to me later through it."
Do you think interpretation is a gift that I can ask for so I can help other people interpret whatever it is their dream or vision was?
Joseph said, "Interpreting dreams is God's business." And they called on him because he was filled with the Holy Spirit. So it's the Holy Spirit who interprets the dreams. So the born-again believer has the ability to know what God is saying through dreams. This is why I say, number one, it's going to be clear and coherent. If it's from the Lord, because the Holy Spirit is speaking. Now, now, here's, here's a caveat here. If you're in sin, if you're in stubborn rebellion, as if there's any other kind, then when that dream comes, you may just, as I said, ignore it, push it away. And of course, you'll never receive it because you're not even giving it the attention that God. And God speaks to us to many different ways. Sometimes He's just, He uses different avenues, but He does use dreams sometimes. And and if you're in willful sin, you're not going to want to receive that. Your rebellious heart is going to resist that message, even if you weren't aware that you're resisting it. And that's because, again, in your dreams, or in, in, you're in sin, and that's how it affects your ability to receive those dreams.
So because it's not 100% clear and accurate, it's not co-, it's not concise, it's not, um, I forgot the other word you used, clear and coherent. It's not clear and coherent. It's absolutely I can just rule it out. It's not the Lord.
Well, yes, but, but it's important that I define what I mean when I say clear and coherent. I don't mean that you're always going to get the meaning immediately. That's, I'm not implying that either. What I mean is that it's going to be something that you can at least attempt to interpret. MH. Because again, what, what happens? Okay, I know I'm going to use another strange example, but what happens if, you know, I had a dream and I was at a dinner table and they were serving Jell-O, and the Jell-O turned orange and red, then green. And my spoon melted and became a lizard. All of a sudden, then the lizard started talking to me and did a magic trick with cards, and it was a King of Clubs. But then the club opened up. And like, "Okay, like, hold on. Like, you know, I get it. But like, where do we even begin with this? What, what, where's even..." Again, there's going to be some stability to the dream that's from the Lord. And and that's just comparing the dreams that God gave all throughout the Old Testament and even the new. There was, look at the dreams in, in the scripture. There's always coherency. There was always, there was always a stability to them. It wasn't so all over the place. I mean, sometimes there were pretty strange things, but it wasn't so all over the place that you couldn't even attempt to put language to it. And so that's where we have to be careful.
Well, that's it for this episode of the Encounter Podcast. Thanks for listening. And until next time, remember, nothing is impossible with God.