Transcription
去中心化信任虚拟聚会，嗯，正如我们所说，由 LFDT 比利时主办。感谢 Shane 组织了这次活动。嗯，在我把它交给 Shane 之前，只有一句话。所有 Linux 基金会的活动，无论是线下的还是线上的，都遵循我们的行为准则。所以我们只是请求大家互相尊重。如果您想了解更多信息，屏幕上有一个链接，您可以阅读我们的行为准则。说到这里，我将把它交给 Shane 来主持活动。再次感谢您的组织。谢谢 David。嗯，感谢大家的加入。所以是的，这是一个在线活动，但这个倡议来自 LFDT 比利时小组。所以某种程度上它与比利时有点关系。嗯，去年九月，我们有一个关于可信人工智能代理的非常有趣的聚会，由 Casuman 和 Joff Byrie 主持，从那时起，很多事情都发生了变化。所以从那时起，编码代理变得更加强大，嗯，模型总体上也是如此，但仍然存在一些问题。目前，许多这些能力仍然停留在概念验证阶段，因为一旦您想在您的基础设施中甚至跨组织释放它们，您很容易遇到问题，主要原因是代理系统正在创建自己的意图。这就是魔力所在，也是所有的潜力所在。但对于 IT 系统来说，这也是非常不可预测的。所以我们今天拥有的 IM 基础设施主要是围绕人类设计的，并且是逐步演变的，但它主要是为组织内部或信任边界内部设计的，这也留下了一个空白，一个代理潜力的空白，所以这就是为什么我认为这非常适合 LFDT，适合去中心化信任，不一定是为了取代所有现有的 AM，我认为这也不会发生，而是为了扩展它，所以这次活动的一部分，这就是我停止阅读我预先写好的文本的部分，活动的一部分将是关于我们如何跨越信任边界，仍然信任我们正在打交道的人，并知道他们能做什么或不能做什么。另一个是，一旦代理正在创建或与其它系统通信或生成新的代理，您如何确定您最初授予它的权限没有扩大，并且您不会遇到混淆的副手问题。对于这两个主题，我都有比我更了解、更深入的演讲者。所以，嗯，首先我们将有来自 Future Y 的 Wing Chu。他在那里领导人工智能和人类信任方面的技术战略。他还是 Trust Over IP 人工智能和人类信任工作组的主席，他们正在为信任和自主代理开发一个技术栈，涉及身份、通信、委托、问责制，他还是信任跨越协议规范的作者，然后我们有来自 Nitro Agility 的 Nicolola Gallo。他是一位软件架构师，在银行平台和大型分布式系统方面拥有丰富的经验。他是去中心化身份基金会可信人工智能代理工作组的联合主席，他主要从事安全漏洞以及分布式系统中的身份和授权工作。所以，嗯，我想我说得够多了，我将把话筒交给 Wenjing，感谢您的到来。谢谢 Shane。嗯，让我看看我是否能再次共享屏幕。看起来还可以。>> 是的，很好。>> 是的。>> 好的。好的。所以，嗯，Shane，再次感谢您的介绍。嗯，嗯，不久前我在新泽西见过 Shane。是线下的，然后我加入了 LFDT 会员峰会，当时有一个关于人工智能的讨论小组，所以我们开始聊天，嗯，我非常想，你知道，借此机会介绍我们的工作，但也想让大家更好地了解我，嗯，我认为有很多工作，过去发生在不同的环境中，但嗯，我有点看到了一个主题，嗯，AR 代理和惊喜，你知道，或者快速发展，正在将许多这些努力联系在一起。所以希望今天我们能看到，嗯，至少有两个这样的努力，嗯，我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我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I'm going to talk about authority continuity. So before to start so what we are going to look today we're going to look at the problem how we can fix the mental model the state of the art and why it is failing the parag shift the big model and what's next. So overall um we are talking about unsolved problems. So the identity solves identification but they actually they don't solve authority. H and um more in detail so far we didn't solve how authority propagates through execution. Okay. So when working on PIK I started to look at the problem in a different point of view. I mean my background is um in distributed system. So I started with very different problems. So what I realized is that uh if we start looking at this problem in a different perspective where uh there are no artifacts as a core security element. The authority is not granted by the proof of possession and maybe we start looking at a new security primitive things change. I mean some problem become much easier to be solved and in this context we move into intent and execution. So the authority essentially exist only if there is an execution which preserve the origin. It is exercise it is exercising the authority the exercise the authority is origin bounded and the execution satisfy all the continity gap and of course it is also based on formal methods I mean we're not going to have time to look at the paper of the formal methods but maybe another time so let's start with the problem so today there are companies the industries talking about AI agents. Okay. So, how can we build trust on AI agents? How we are going to secure AI agents? Okay. But whatever are the question that people are asking today are exactly the same question I was asking to myself when I was working on distributed system. H. So essentially if we start looking in the point of view distributed system we realize that AI agents they did not create any new security problem they just exposed and removed all the assumption that we had in the past. So there are no parimeters there are no stable topology there is no single owner there is no shared configuration trust. Okay. So essentially whatever was broken before is already is also broken under AI. So what is the real problem? In the past to solve security we have been developing protocols postures configuration policy. Okay but try to think about it. So I've got an AI agent who is going to call an API which is going to call an AI agent or maybe I'm going to call an API that is going to call an AI agent. So the first question I asked myself was this. So how can I trust either the posture, the configuration policies of something that I don't own, I don't control and I don't even know. Okay. So if you start phrasing the problem in this way, you realize that maybe with the current ontology is impossible to solve this problem. And we realize that maybe so far we didn't solve the authority propagation. Of course, as soon as you start looking at those um this problem in a different perspective and you start working on AI agent that essentially are distributed system, you realize that the old problems are back. We've got confused deity, we've got ambient authority, we've got privilege escalation, we've got token substitution and they are not a back. They are just the consequences of the model. So in this presentation we are going to look at the confused deputy but I mean pick eliminate also ambient authority privilege escalation and much more. So what is the confusedity? So the confused the deputy is a vulnerability where a deputy is confused and execute an operation under his own authority on the behalf of a less privileged caller. That's something we're going to look at. Then there is another key concept. We've got workloads. And in my point of view, when I was solving this problem, I started to think that maybe the key mistake is to think that the agents they are different security subjects. Okay. But in reality, they are just workload. They are smart workload, but they are just workload. So they are workload that can be replicated. They can be rescheduled. They can be shortlived. They can rekid and so on. Okay. Then each of those workload got an identifier and the identifier they are unstable. So unstable because they can restart. Okay. They can be recreated and most important authority cannot be unstable. So we have to pay attention about this. So in order to understand P first of all we need to change the mental model and we need to start looking at the structural element. We've got identity. So an identity is something that represent a subject. The intent instead is the desired action of the object. And then we've got the delegation. So the delegation is when a subject wants to delegate a third one. Then we've got another structural element which is the authority. Okay. So essentially what is authority? Authority is something that is created when an identity express a will using an intent. H so if you look in this way identity plus intent they generate an authority. Okay. And this authority has to move across across the system and has to be executed. Then reorganizing the element in this way we can see that we've got identity in that authority. Okay. And the authority itself is something important. And then we've got governance where we've got the delegation and of of course also identity. So if we want to look at the real problem we need to start maybe changing the mental model and look in a different way. So say look it's not about possession but it's about intent and execution and to do so we need also to keep in mind what are the element that we are working with we've got principle that are entity that can express the intent we've got delegation where a principle can grant specific intents to another one the intent itself which is a verifiable expression of will the authority which is the entity plus the intent and then there is the workload which is important. So the workload essentially is the executor that can either continue under the received authority or can create new authority. Then we've got governance where the governance should be able to stop restrict or even unchange the authority should never expand because if you expand you got all this class of vulnerability. So if you start looking at the problem in this way, you start looking at the identity plus intent which are going to generate authority. The authority is going to be executed through different execution node. Each of those execution node can apply governance. They can restrict, filter, limit but never expand the authority. And if you are able to satisfy this um characteristic you can be sure that confused de privilege escalation they are impossible and this also mathematically proven. So what is this state of the art today? The state of the art is that we treat authority as an object. So we can create store transfer consume. Okay but if you look at this you realize that maybe this is proper the root of the problem. H so let's look at as an example of access token. So what happened the user authenticate the token is issued the token represent the authority and whoever hold it can exercise it. So it means a still a stolen token can get authority replay token can get authority use of token in an intended context can get authority. It is whatever happen when authority and possession they are the same thing. And if in fact we've got also off to do to token exchange specification which is essentially a specification that allow us to exchange token. So as a user I authenticate I send my token to a node the node in order to send the token to the next node is going to exchange because it's going to change the audience and so on. So the token exchange works for sure. But if you start working in distributed system and this exactly the place where AI agents live, you realize that you have also a synchronous operation. Okay. And when you have a synchronous operation, maybe you are not using HTTP, you're using messaging maybe. And in this context you have problem. So how do I pass the token? How do I encrypt it? How do I rotate? How do I replay? How implement all of those and here is the place where security collapse. In fact, AI agents they are collapsing in all of those use cases. So try to think at this. I've got a client which create a token via an identity provider as to send this token to the next worker and there is a problem. So if I send the access token in clear is a security risk. Whoever read that lock is going to use it. So I can encrypt it. But there is a problem. Maybe I don't know who is next. So if I want to encrypt who is next is going to know my private key and I need infrastructure to share the private key. Then there is a another problem. Let's suppose I say okay I'm anyway I'm encrypting it. Mhm. There is no guarantee that in a distributed system the next worker is going to go alive and read the message before the token expired because if the token expired in five minutes and the worker pick the message in five minute and 1 second it's gone. Okay. So how the industry solved those problem? the industry solved with the caller authority and service account key access key and so on. And if you start mixing and creating two type of authority because the service authority the service account is going to create authority under its own authority the confused problem is guaranteed. I mean it's not a bug. That's exactly the place where you got the confused problem. And here I understood that if we want to solve distributed system and including AI agents, we need to build a canonical execution model. So we cannot keep pretending that the world is running on HTTP. I mean whoever wrote micros service distributed system knows that is not possible. You need a synchronous system. You need messaging. Okay. And this is the hard part. So if we rephrase this problem, we say look the best security model has to be able to satisfy this execution model. So I've got a workload n that is going to send a message to workload n + one. This is going to happen at time x and the next workload is going to be provision at time x plus epsilon where epsilon is a positive offset. Okay, this is very common. Any company using a broker, an Apache Cafka, a message broker has this use case. That's why I was asking myself, I mean, yeah, there is something wrong. That's why we are using off on the public internet and we are using something else that we don't know because AI agents are showing to us that we have those problems. Okay. Within the parimeter and AI agents they removed the perimeter and we've got those problems. Okay, so the main problem is that configuration cannot save you. So if you got a broken ontology, you're not going to fix with it. So let's take an example. Let's suppose Alice wants to summarize a file and this file is in this path. There is an AI agent that is going to read this file but unfortunately is going to do it with its own authority. Okay. And it's going to allow Alice to get the content of a file that she she she should not have because she's not authorized to that. So that's the classical confusy problem. But why does it happen? because there is a caller which invoke an AI agent which is performing an authority switch using its own intent and is creating new authority. So how can I create a new authority with an identity with a service account with a workload. So here we've got the paradigm shift. So if you start looking into this and you say look if I don't want to confuse the problem I need to guarantee that the authority is continue. Okay. I need probably to shift and change the model I'm using for security. So the authority you understand that must be only continued and this should be true for human non humans and should never be recreated. Okay. So in order to do this you need a new primitive because token are encoding possession but now you need a primitive which allow you to encode intent and execution and this is proof of continuity. So the proof of continuity allow you to have causal continuity origin invariance and monotonic authority restriction. Then if you buy this ontology you realize if there is no continuity there is no execution. So what does it means that a workload can go ahead only if it can prove that there is a valid continuity. So it can prove that it can continue that authority. So there is a relationship or as you can create a new authority in order to continue and the workload has to prove that exist relationship between the workload itself and the authority and this can be done with possession but it's not the only way to do it. If you look at the problem in this way you realize that to continue authority you don't need identity you don't need identifier. In fact, a workload doesn't need identity an identifier to go continue. Okay. Whilst to create authority, you need an identity. You need to create a new origin. You need to express an intent. H. So under this um model, the confus problem is eliminated. It's not detected or mitigated is elimin eliminated. And there is a formal proof about this. So what happen is that Alice is going to create an authority which is going to be immutable and this authority has to say that Alice has this rights. As soon as it's going to try to read the logs file the P model is going to reject it because there is Alice doesn't have the authority to read that file. The only way to allow the AI agents to read the file is to create a new authority. But if you create a new authority that's not anymore the confused problem is the AI agent which is with purpose creating a new authority. But there is it's impossible to get the confused problem. So the big model is based on first of all it stand for provenence identity continuity and this stands for provenience. So there is like a a virtual chain each step is going to be chained and there is a link to the previous chain. There is the identity which is immutable and there are the continuity principle. Okay. Apart the formal model there is also a technical specification to implement this model and what is saying this specification. So in order to build the p model so this is an implementation of the mathematical model what can you do? You can treat each executor okay as a single node. So you have imagine this is a workload in a distributed system in the canonical example. This can be also an AI agent whatever. So with P you want to guarantee that you can move to the next op only if you are allowed to v to live in this authority and only if you satisfy the authority. So how the pick model works first of all there is a trust plane. So the executor receive a PCA which is a big causal authority which is a message. The executor itself has to proof that can live in this authority. So let's suppose Alice said I am Alice. I want to read this file and I'm going to do in the cost context of the sales department. So what is going to happen? So the executor has to prove to the trust plane that he can continue this. So first of all the executor has to prove as this characteristic. So it's leaving the sales department. It's going to take the PCA build a proof of continuity and the trust play is going to execute it. It's going to evaluate. It's going to see if all the guard are fine and then it's going to create a next stop. So it means that if I try to add something that is not enough will be rejected. Okay. Here I oversimplify the concept but under the youth this is the general idea. Then the second question I had okay so if this PCA has a virtual link to the previous one and the trust plane is going to validate that this is the exactly next one without the need to bring with me all the chain just the last element of the chain and become unbreakable okay because I've got proof of continuity and there is only one problem I say okay but the executor every time takes the decision is going to call the trust play. But if you think around about it, it's a false problem because of token exchange is already doing it. So every time you need to move to the next, you need to exchange the token. So in terms of network latency, there is no difference. I've got a trust plane. The token exchange got a resource server. The network latency is just a deployment matter. there is no real difference. So the difference is in the algorithm itself to evaluate this proof of continuity. So the cryptography behind it and apart this P is bringing different concept like refactory invariant security that along with the trust plane allow to to build several use case in a very fast way compared to the off token exchange. I mean today we're gonna not talk about that maybe another time. So what happened is I created a prototype. In this prototype I've been using did verified credential but it's not
有必要，我想，我的意思是它们很好，但你可以用中心化的方式构建这个。它会工作，无论如何都会工作。我创建了这个原型，我开始构建一个带有信任平面的PIC的简单示例，结果非常令人鼓舞，因为执行一个链，我的意思是，我需要微秒，好的，所以我意识到，如果我能构建这个连续性证明，并且我得到与令牌交换相同的微秒延迟，那么它们就不是问题。所以部署不会是问题，但有一点，我将能够证明连续性，消除不同类型的漏洞，包括混淆问题。
重要部分是PIC并没有取代16栈。所以我们仍然需要身份提供者，我们仍然需要钱包，我们仍然需要用户，一切都在那里。唯一改变的是，我们不再继续使用身份提供者钱包来做一些不是为此设计的事情，我们需要开始思考意图执行，所以一旦我认证了，我如何传播安全性？这如何通过网络发生？代理工作负载API是否必须始终工作，这不重要。好的。当然，它不仅仅是一个身份协议，它是一个新的安全模型。
那么，接下来是什么？所以，PIC正在转移权限。所以，你有了你的钱包，你有了你的身份提供者，然后你有了权限。所以，使用你的身份提供者，使用你的钱包，你表达你的意图，你说：“看，这就是我想做的。这就是我想要负责的地方。”因为当我表达一个意图，我说我自己是Nicola，我有这个意图，我就变得负责。所以这意味着一个工作负载，一个AI代理表达一个意图，就变得负责。在这种情况下，将是代理的所有者负责，而不是创建交易的人，但如果我创建交易，我就是负责的。好的。
所以PIC正在通过网络转移权限，并保证执行中的意图将满足权限。然后，当然，它不与基础设施绑定，所以它可以在任何传输上运行，所以它可以在Off、DSP、Comy等任何地方运行，为什么？因为你可以使用其他协议作为传输层来启用PIC，因为我问自己的第二个问题是，好的，PIC正在工作，但世界可能已经在Off上运行了，这与你在中心化系统中已经遇到的问题相同，所以我说，好的，我如何测试它？我如何思考公司采用它？好的，所以有不同的用例，所以第一个用例是使用Off作为联邦骨干。好的。你可以做的是将PCA转换为Off访问令牌格式，并使其通过所有节点移动。好的。所以在内部，想要实现PIC的应用程序，实现其他的，它们只是会继续交换令牌。我的意思是，这肯定只是一个起点，一旦公司理解了，他们会说，好的，我们只使用PIC有什么意义？我的意思是，但你使用联邦ODC进行身份验证或钱包，另一个用例是说，看，假设我有一家公司，他们说，看，我的公司里有分布式系统，我有Apache，我有分布式系统，我有我的AI代理，我愿意采用一些能够从结构上解决所有这些问题的东西。我如何通过边界？所以在这种情况下是相同的。所以我们可以做的是在Off中创建自定义声明，嵌入PCA，就像一个自定义声明，一旦你在边界内，你就可以开始测试PIC并做任何你喜欢的事情。如果你有与其他人通信的限制，你需要做同样的事情，否则你可以完全使用PIC，但当然PIC只是权限，它没有一个受信任的通道来通信，因为你需要一个受信任的通道来避免中间人攻击，并且
>> 抱歉，Nicola，我们必须开始衔接了，谢谢。
>> 然后，当然，这也可以与信任跨越协议一起工作，因为PIC，PIC模型也可以通过TSP。所以这就是PIC的理念。所以不是身份，不是占有，而只是连续性。有网站，尊重，形式模型，我们也在创建社区。就是这样。
>> 太棒了。谢谢。嗯，是的，我可以想象对于那些对这两个新概念都感到陌生的参与者来说，一次性处理这么多信息确实很多。嗯，但是，是的，会有录音，你可以再回顾一遍。嗯，现在我想在剩下的时间里问几个问题。嗯，我第一个问题，让我看看这里。是的，首先我从观众那里得到了一个问题，我想那是在Vening的会议期间。当前的框架是什么？或者，我想区别是什么？就像MCP到TMCP的区别会是什么？
>> 当然。是的。嗯，所以当前的系统，嗯，我想它们大多数都来自网络生态系统。所以你有一个服务器和一个客户端。你有一个传输通道，比如TLS，可能更像网络的会是HTTP，然后你有基于OAS的授权，以及OIDC等身份验证，对吧？所以，有一种最佳实践，很多开源项目都使用Open API，我想这可以代表今天的系统，而这个系统自然地，你知道，我认为它们非常成熟，很多问题都已经得到了改进和强化，你知道，严肃的商业业务都在其上运行。嗯，类似于Nicola刚才提到的，我们也在从同一个角度看，为什么当前的系统对代理来说效果不佳。如果你插入，顺便说一句，很多人都在这样做，你把这一切都插入到代理中，你最终会得到一个代理，它在某种程度上会像一个一次性执行引擎。所以他们称之为临时执行，对吧？所以你基本上让代理忘记一切。你发出一个请求。你去做一次性操作，然后它就工作了。好的。整个系统仍然运行，然后你停在那里。如果你能做到这一点，是的。嗯，有各种方法可以扩展它，但它变得越来越复杂。嗯，问题的第二部分是什么？哦。
>> 嗯，例如，从MCP到TMCP需要什么？或者反过来。
>> 是的。所以我们这样做的方式，我以前在那里放过代码。它真的非常直接。所以我们，假设我有一个代理，我正在使用我的工具。比如说我去做一个搜索，或者我去访问我的电子邮件，或者社交媒体账户等等。我以前使用MCP，为了做所谓的TMCP，你会引入两件事。所以第一是，我们替换底层的传输层。嗯，MCP主要只是JSON RPC。所以它可以在几乎任何传输层上运行。所以你使用TSP作为传输层，这需要你实际引入钱包和标识符。所以所有这些都进来了，然后你就会在某种程度上拥有TMCP。好的。所以在简单的情况下，它真的很简单，但是有趣的是，通过这样做，你突然之间，你以前完成的交易或交互变得非常不同，因为现在你有了可以构建历史的记录。所以这立即影响了内存的设计，影响了，就像Nicola说的那样，授权如何改变，因为现在你可以拥有一个连续性权限，对吧，可以通过这个通道进行传递，这样你就可以将一个任务委托给另一个服务器，而这个任务又可以进一步委托给另一个服务器，例如。所以所有这些都可以在新系统中构建，但在旧系统中则不行，它会崩溃。这有道理吗？
>> 是的。然后我向Nicola提出的后续问题是，我是否理解正确，一旦它到达不同的系统，TSP的实际签名允许它，通过顶部的信任框架，来验证它来自哪里。然后通过这个，PIC可以进入，并且在那个再次拥有MCP的系统内，跨系统解决权限和混淆代理问题，你认为这是对的吗？
>> 等一下，如果你理解我的意思，你是说跨域还是在同一个系统内？
>> 所以我正在寻找它们是如何互补的，所以我认为TSP在MCP服务器进入系统的地方停止。
>> 它与SP是互补的，我的意思是，PIC只是以不同的方式看待问题，所以他说，看，今天我们试图用占有证明来解决所有问题，我是否拥有一个秘密？所以我能做到吗？我能证明我是所有者吗？我如何用凭证和秘密来证明它？PIC说的是不同的事情，他说，看，如果你想解决这个问题，即使占有证明对于身份来说很棒，也存在问题，因为你如何信任任何代理来持有秘密？你需要找到一种方法来说，看，我想以安全的方式构建这个。所以PIC遵循一个数学模型，他说，看，为了继续，我不需要证明我拥有秘密，我不需要证明我拥有一个工件，因为问题是什么？任何拥有工件的人都可以使用它，如果我仍然可以使用它，好的，因为我拥有它，PIC选择了一个不同的东西，为了使用和继续。我需要证明我可以在那个权限下继续，并且我有两个证明我是护栏的一部分。所以作为执行者，我应该说我有一个关系证明，这允许我证明我可以继续那个权限。好的，我给你一个例子。假设用户说我希望这份合同被签署，这只有在执行者是销售或律师部门的一部分，并且是公司X或epsilon的一部分时才能发生。好的，我如何表达这个？所以我的意图中我会表达这个。我会说，看，我只想在与这两家公司的销售律师代表打交道时签署合同，好的，其他人不应该能够使用这个权限，所以假设我在一个节点，一个工作负载中获得权限，当工作负载被配置时，它将具有一些特性，这些特性可以是经过验证的凭证，例如，所以当我安装一个AI代理，当我安装一个工作负载时，我会说，看，这个工作负载有一个标识符，它是一个费用。这个工作负载可以是一个标识符或spiff标识符，这不重要，这些标识符与元数据和特性相关联。所以假设工作负载获得了经过验证的凭证。我们说，看，我是一个AI代理，是公司X的一部分，并且在销售部门工作。所以为了使用和继续权限，你必须证明你是销售部门的一部分。你必须证明你是那家公司的一部分，并且你必须询问信任平面，说，看，我可以向你保证我是这些护栏的一部分。我想继续，信任平面会检查并说，好的，你能向我证明你确实是销售部门的一部分吗？是的。你能证明你是这家公司的一部分吗？是的。好的。你接下来想做什么？信任平面会确保主体不改变。并且操作权限不改变。好的。所以通过这种方式，你构建了一些东西，它变得，你只有在能够证明的情况下才能使用，然后信任平面会签署它，创建一个像虚拟链一样的东西，然后继续。好的。所以在这里，你正在数学上通过一个不同的原语，不是占有证明，而是连续性证明。正如我所说，占有证明可以用来建立关系。这不是唯一的方法，因为我已经在寻找新的方法来通过零知识证明关系，可能不需要占有证明本身，或者内存，或者其他。但那是一种方式，所以那是一个转变。所以如果你想看这个问题，你可能需要从不同的角度看。你需要改变本体论。比如说，看，我需要停止占有，因为如果我占有，混淆问题将永远存在，数学上消除混淆的唯一方法是通过链证明连续性，我的意思是也有数学证明这一点，我不知道我是否回答了问题。
>> 是的，是的，信息量很大，但我认为我理解了。嗯，也许下一个问题也相关。所以我也想听听Vening对此的看法。嗯，因为这是一个比利时左翼聚会，我有自由将重点放在欧洲，因为这里很快就会推出EUDI数字身份，嗯，无论实施的所有细节如何，我认为它运行的堆栈是兼容的，例如与信任规划协议。所以，我们将拥有内置凭证的UDI钱包。嗯，正如Nicola你给出的例子，只有这些公司的员工才能签署这个，那么我认为两者可能非常兼容，因为需要有一种方式来检查这个人是否真的是这家公司的员工，并且需要有顶层的信任注册表，无论是GLE还是其他什么。所以，首先Vening，我想听听你对此的看法。
>> 当然。我不确定我是否完全理解，但让我开始，看看是否有什么遗漏。嗯，我们，我与Open Wallet合作了很多，嗯，当我们设计TSP时，核心要求之一是，我们希望确保协议不强制任何类型的标识符或任何其他会最小化其可用性的东西。所以我们确保，你知道，我们不选择任何特定的格式，尽管我们自己的实现是，你知道，我们想坚持简单的，但我认为EUDI和所有法规以及沿着这些路线提出的方法应该与TSP很好地协同工作。嗯，如果有人想要一个演示或某种实际应用程序正在构建，我们很乐意与他们合作，嗯，所以我们自己不是这方面的专家。我知道很多概念性的东西，但我对编程不够了解，但它应该很容易做到。嗯，我们也设计了音频格式来做这个。所以这是问题的一部分。嗯，第二部分是
>> 回到Nicola给出的例子，那里有设计，并且受到公司人员的限制。
>> 是的。是的。是的。所以，嗯，理论上，嗯，一旦你，我们思考这些问题的方式，我是在两个层面思考的。所以，我假设TSP是基础，然后我说，如果我在上面用TSP解决那个问题，假设我已经有一个基于TSP的下层，我该怎么做呢？而且它会比以前简单很多吗？答案是肯定的，所以在这种情况下，TSC消息本质上是经过认证和签名的，所以你在两端都有某种标识符，它们每次都会自动相互认证，并且已经签名。所以，嗯，那么关于员工凭证的问题，例如，你可以进行凭证验证。所以无论哪个版本的凭证验证，雇主都可以简单地作为工作流程程序，为他们的每个员工分配或颁发凭证。大概他们就是这样做的。你可以将你的批次放入某个东西中，它将连接到你底层的验证系统等等。所以所有这些都很好，所以可以做到。所以这是一种方法。嗯，这非常适合结构良好、组织良好的系统，其中员工和所有这些都很清楚。嗯，现在你可能有一个承包商，例如，一个承包商在技术上不是员工，但有一些东西，然后它变得有点复杂，但随后你引入了一个自主代理，就好像它是一个承包商，就好像它是一个员工。所以人们通常这样做的方式是，你给一个代理分配一个真实的身份，有名字和电子邮件账户等等，就像一个员工一样，现在这个身份它不是一个员工，对吧？那么它是什么？它的权限一直在变化，而人类员工的权限不会经常变化，偶尔你会得到晋升什么的，但是，嗯，这个代理的任务可以是任何事情，然后如果你给它所有凭证，那么代理就都超级强大了，对吧？那么就没有办法控制它了，所以你需要一个非常细粒度的动态的，我不知道那个形容词，正确的形容词是什么，你需要一种不同的东西，嗯，而且那种东西，不像员工，我们可以结构化他们，哦，你是HR，你被允许访问这个系统。这非常清楚，有点静态，并且提前知道。但是代理可能正在尝试做很多事情，比如只发生一次。所以，你将要询问非常不同和多样的事情，我们可能没有提前设计。没有特定的类别。这就是复杂性所在，这就是为什么我认为我们需要超越凭证等等所能做的事情，来做允许这种更动态的新系统。
>> 是的。所以我认为这可以在多个层面解开，比如传输层，顶部的信任层，如何解开，你知道，如何找出那是否真的值得信任，或者意图，是的，然后我想把问题交给Nicola来结束这次活动，因为我们时间不多了，但我希望你能有时间给出一个完整的答案，也为了我自己能更好地理解这两种方法。这会如何补充Vening刚才描述的内容？嗯，你认为哪些部分是缺失的，因为TSP是故意“瘦身”的，所以不可能实现？对于那些想要进一步发展，想要构建，想要理解DSP和PIC，以及如何在他们的解决方案中实现它的人来说，这会如何附加？好的。
所以我的意思是，首先我不是DSP的专家，但据我所知，PIC肯定可以在DSP上工作，使用SPSD传输层来处理权限。我的意思是，我认为AI代理的权限不应该固定这种动态。我的意思是，我创建一个，我可以表达一个意图，并且我拥有一个权限。所以如果我是一个AI代理，作为一个AI代理，我应该有一些权限。所以这些权限应该由人类授予我。所以假设我有一个AI代理，它负责，我不知道，查看公司中的安全风险。我可能愿意授予那个AI代理启动调查的权限，因为这是我愿意授予AI代理的权限。好的，但我如何决定哪些权限授予代理？我需要它的身份，因为 then there is another problem。一个AI代理可以被扩展。好的，如果我有100个AI代理实例，我有100个标识符，但所有这些标识符都与实体对齐。所以它们应该共享来自身份的权限，并且应该能够创建权限。好的。所以我认为如果我们陷入这种模型，认为它们是干净的，因为无论我是人类还是非人类，都不会改变任何东西，那么我们信任的有趣部分，以及我们获得经过验证的凭证等等的地方，是在权限将跨越不同领域的时候，因为想想看，假设PIC说权限不应该扩展。但假设我说我给一个AI代理关闭交易的权限。好的，在我公司，根据政策，关闭交易意味着签署合同、拒绝合同或重新谈判。好的。一旦代理跨越并移动到另一家公司，可能该公司有不同的规则，规定交易不应该重新谈判，它应该被批准或关闭。好的。所以有两种语义。所以在这里我们得到一个想法，我们需要理解行动的语义，因为我可以扩展。所以假设我在第一个系统中授予的相同行动与第二个系统中的行动不匹配，因为我可能在第一个系统中授予说，好的，你只能接受或拒绝，而我最终进入了一个新的系统，那里有谈判，他们说，哦，你做了什么谈判？我确信你只是接受或拒绝了交易，好的，所以我们如何建立信任？所以信任是复杂的，因为你首先需要识别参与者。所以身份是什么？你将建立信任并开始匹配所有这些信任层，我问你自己，看，这对于代理来说还没有解决，但对于人类来说解决了吗？我的意思是，如果你有一个范围，假设我拿一个Off令牌，我有一个范围，然后我将它与另一个身份提供者联合起来，我如何确定这个范围具有相同的语义？它解决了吗？我猜没有。所以你能看到你为AI代理遇到的相同问题仍然存在于人类身上。所以我的观点是，人们可以开始尝试TSP，他们可以尝试PIC，但首先我们需要改变方法，首先我们需要决定参与者的身份标识符是什么，我们如何传播权限，以及当我们建立信任时，我们必须说，好的，但是信任什么？一个身份信任什么？一个行动？一个权限？什么？所以如果我们不共享这个共同的概念，我认为在行业中建立信任将是困难的。我不知道我是否回答了你的问题。
>> 是的。Vening，你还有什么想补充的吗？
>> 是的，肯定有，嗯，我们从基础开始。我们需要建立一个可靠的框架，以便我们能够进行推理。所以连续性是一个很好的推理概念。嗯，人们可能也对能力感兴趣。所以那是另一种表达这些授权的方式。嗯，但是，如果你从更高的层面思考，它只是简单地说，嗯，我们正在将一个重要的任务委托给其他事物，另一个人或另一个代理，对吧？而且通常它不是直接地说，哦，我授权你做这个，而且只有你才有权限做这些事情，所以这是一个很好的思考方式。但通常工作或者，嗯，它更复杂，因为代理现在需要去寻找解决方案，而解决方案可能需要额外的授权。这很常见，对吧？而且情况也会随着时间而改变。所以，嗯，为什么我们构建了这些已知的、明确的结构来表达授权。我们将需要多种类型的授权。但我们也需要考虑，它将是y一个非常动态的系统，这确实让我们担心协议需要足够灵活，以便我们能够真正处于一个动态系统中。我们不仅仅是一次性表达授权，我们将表达授权和重新授权，所有这些都将非常常见。所以，嗯，它是一个打开更大世界的大门，这个世界有更多的问题。我只是想说，我认为我们的努力是这个开始，而不是全部。
>> 是的。太棒了。嗯，我看到了最后一个问题，但我们严重超时了。如果你们两位还有时间，可以回答。如果你们熟悉麻省理工学院正在开发的Nanda倡议，我已经听过很多关于它的信息了。我想你们两位都熟悉。嗯，但今天讨论的针对可信AI代理提出的安全基础设施和协议似乎非常适合解决NAN倡议的安全要求。所以我认为这也是一个建议，嗯，是的，与他们取得联系，因为我认为这是一个我们需要共同构建的框架，才能真正释放AI代理的潜力，而不是停留在PLC上。所以，是的，如果你们有相同的看法，那么我想这个问题就回答了。嗯，但那时请不要犹豫与他们联系。嗯，是的，我想我就此结束了。我可以谈一整天，但非常感谢大家的到来。嗯，如果任何人有，我将替你们两位说，任何问题或想更多地参与或尝试，请与Vening和Nicola联系。嗯，我希望，如果任何人对下一次聚会的主题有想法，请随时与我联系。我希望我们能有更多这类活动，一起解决这些相当复杂的挑战。谢谢。
>> 谢谢。
>> 太棒了。谢谢Shane的组织。谢谢大家。
>> 谢谢。
>> 谢谢。再见。再见。
>> 再见。