Transcription
Having a Lutheran minister here, I have to ask a few questions, um, that hopefully you can enlighten me. Um, I often hear this in the comments, or I should say I read this in the comments, and I'd love to hear your insight on this particular Bible verse that people bring up. And it's in regards to near-death experiences. And the verse is from 2 Corinthians, and it says, "The devil disguises himself as an angel of light." And people dismiss some of these experiences because of that. What does that verse mean? And does it relate at all to your experience and what other people have experienced?
Good question. Wow. Right. And it makes you suspicious of these near-death experience accounts.
This is Beyond with Heather Tash, where we examine near-death experiences and life itself, hopefully making this life a little better. Hello, welcome, and welcome to my guest, David McInley. Hello, David. Hello, Heather. How good to see you. It is wonderful to see you. You have so much to offer, my guest today. You are a Lutheran minister. You're a chaplain. You're a counselor, a speaker, a cancer survivor, and a near-death experiencer, which will be, of course, what we will mainly cover today. But I wanted to start out just saying that we met eight years ago. And I don't know how much you remember this, but I remember it very well because I went to the conference. It is before I was doing this podcast. I did not know a soul, and I was awkwardly standing in kind of the hallway area, you know, not knowing or not having anybody to talk to, and you so kindly brought me into the circle of people you were talking to and made me feel very comfortable. And then after that, after meeting you, I decided to get your book and I loved it. It's called Beyond Surviving. I know you have another one now that's called Early Exits, and you know, I'll be referencing this throughout our talk because there were so many great points in it. You can see it's well-loved and it's got markers and things in it. So, so anyway, in your book Beyond Surviving, you say, "When death comes, how wonderful to find it does not destroy us." And that is exactly the message that people are hoping to hear today. So, tell us about your cancer journey and your near-death experience.
Well, sure. And, uh, thank you for having me on the show. And, uh, thank you to the viewers for for watching and exploring this. So, right, I've had cancer four times. Uh, you know, which always still sounds funny to say. Um, it is an astonishing thing to reflect upon your life and realize the road you've traveled, but you rise to meet it. You do what you need to do. And, um, so I was 17 years old. I was a young, naive, um, egotistical man who, um, really didn't know much about life. Uh, and I was diagnosed with this strange cancer called, um, paraganglioma. It's, it's really rare. U 90% of these grow on the adrenal gland and then they're called pheochromocytoma, but 10% of these grow anywhere else in the body. And it's not like other cancers that spreads out or metastasizes to compromise your metabolic systems. Mine sits as a gelatinous tumor making a Molotov cocktail of chemicals. So there's dopamine and catecholamines and norepinephrine and piles of stuff that are really dangerous in high doses. And the scary thing is it's a time bomb. The fuse is your adrenaline. So whenever I got excited or scared, or if I exercised causing adrenaline to be released, it would trigger the tumor. Small explosions feel like, uh, anxiety attacks, right? You get sweaty. Um, your heart races, you get stomach cramps. That was my main symptom. Um, larger attacks will knock you out, and anything more than that will kill you. Most people die in about a minute from, uh, pheochromocytoma. So I'm 17 years old and I've got this tumor, but it's not exhibiting the normal symptoms because it's in my bladder. So the metabolites were being flushed out with my urine. Uh, it was caught on a fluke because I hemorrhaged. The the tumor, you know, started bleeding, and that was terrifying. They found it. They did the operation where they removed the dome of my bladder and, uh, gave me the diagnosis. Now, this was over 30 years ago. The, uh, the doctor, uh, said, um, "It's benign" because 90% of these are benign. And I thought, "I'm out of the woods. I'm a lucky man." Uh, but I didn't understand that well, even if this tumor is benign, it is metabolically active and considered one of the most dangerous tumors you could ever have. When you operate on the tumor, you're needing to manipulate it to take it out, but that causes it to explode. So, a lot of people die on the operating room table.
10 years later, 27 years old, I'm a student minister, right? So, I am getting into the pulpit every Sunday and I'm doing the sermons and all that, but I'm finding this, um, annoying pattern of stomach cramps and sweating. Um, I'm an introvert, so public speaking is one of the most anxiety-provoking things you can do. And it was causing another tumor to release the chemicals. This one was on my femoral artery, a big artery going down through the core of your body and then splitting down the legs. So, uh, it was during that second one that I was in a hospital chapel and I was doing a service, and the tumor exploded, and I felt the cramps, and I tried to pull myself together because you don't want to embarrass yourself. My ego, right? Didn't want to be, um, compromised, but I was gone before I hit the floor. And Heather, that, that's when I had my near-death experience.
It was, it's very difficult to put into words, as, as any of your guests would have would have said. Uh, how do you express in these awkward sounds that we call language the breadth and depth and heights and expanse of an entire change in consciousness? Uh, but I, I reduce it to saying I found myself not above my body or going through a tunnel, like, like about 30% of, uh, near-death experiencers do. But suddenly I was on a grassy hill. I was just there. It was beautiful. It was simple. It was clear. I could feel every blade of grass as it moved. I was one with this open and simple environment. There were clouds in the sky, right? And I was a humanoid. I was me walking on this grassy hill. And there were no trees except for one at the top of the hill. And it felt like it was pulling me. I really wanted to run to the tree. I could feel its branches drinking in the light, and the light was love itself, and it was flowing through me, and I was one with it, and I was so happy, and I was so complete, and so whole. Whenever I chat about this, I talk about how while we're here, we tend to spend a lot of energy suppressing big dimensions of ourselves. We have a subconscious, a warehouse of material that's not integrated into our identity. We have the shadow, and we have what we put on the front, the persona. We have the ego, which when it's healthy can mediate all of this. I didn't have any of that when I was in this state. I was whole. I was integrated. There wasn't any part of me that I was suppressing. I was, I, I was home. That's, that's, that's why they often say it's home because you're back to yourself in the fullness and simple, relaxed, expansive awareness and connection to everything.
So, um, I couldn't run to the tree, and there was a guide there beside me. And, uh, a lot of people ask me, "Well, can you describe him?" And I, I don't know what he looked like, but he felt like my best friend. Uh, he felt intensely loving and compassionate, powerful, wise, relaxed, and, uh, great authority, but not in a way that intimidates you. And he, he said, "Welcome, David." And I just said, "I'm home. I'm home. I'm home." And I, I, I was jumping up and down. And, uh, I was like a, a kid at Christmas. And Heather, what's interesting is the communication was telepathic. So there, there's no words. It's a complete connection of consciousness where you have clear and accurate understanding of not only the thoughts and the words and the communication, but the being and the essence of each other. So there's no way to hide. There's no deception. There's no agenda. Uh, there's no, there's no effort. You're simply heart to heart, soul to soul, mind to mind, consciousness to consciousness. And yet, you're still you. So, I, I felt it in my being. "Welcome, David." It wasn't just a greeting, right? I felt it. The love. The, how do you put it into words? And, uh, I said, "I'm home. I'm home." And he said, "Yep. It's great to see you. It's great that you're here." Uh, and I said, "Come on, let's run to the tree." Last one there's a rotten egg, right? It's like, like a kid. And I really wanted to run up there. And he, he said, "No, you can't go up there." I felt the authority of that. Not in a threatening way or anything, just the power, right? Can't go up there. But let's talk. Let's talk. He says, "You're doing well. Things are going really well." Right? So, what does that mean? I now understand it means that I was tracking on my spiritual path. I was, I was doing well. You'd think, well, you're a student minister. You're preparing to be ordained, right? You're, of course, you're on some spiritual path, but it's how you're doing that, right? He was talking more about my job training, talking about my consciousness, my thoughts, my feelings, my essence, that I was in the right step of spiritual evolutionary development and growth, and things were going well. Now, if you'd asked me that, um, when I was 27 or 17, I wouldn't have had a clue. We're all just bumbling along, right? And I'm just bumbling along. I'm trying to pass my courses. I'm trying to, I'm not trying to consciously live well and love well. I'm just being me. And it hardly feels like I'm doing anything spiritually evolved. Um, all I know is the ridiculousness in my head, in my heart, which is all I know now, but he affirmed that it's all going to be really good. You're doing well. And I said, "That's great. Come on, let's run to the tree." I knew if I got to that tree, I'd never come back here. Uh, in so many near-death experiences, there's a, a point, whether it be a visible such, so to speak, line or or object or or or or just a sense of, you can't go beyond here. There's always a boundary. And, um, that, that tree was my boundary. If I had crossed it, I wouldn't have come back. And so we walked and we talked, and I listened, and I'm still trying to recall everything that was said. I can only recall fragments here, but I know it, in its whole, here because it never fades. It never fades. It's like 30 plus years ago. I feel it right now as if it happened like last week. And, uh, he basically said, "Things are going well. You got a lot more work to do." I, I know what that meant, right? It, it meant I had a lot of growing up to do. And it, and it's always about the love. He was like, "You got a lot of growing and evolving in love to do. Love is not an emotion. Love is the highest state of consciousness. For God is love." And my consciousness was still in its infancy in that regard. So, had a lot of more work to do. And I, I instantly knew that that meant there would be challenges and the normal struggles of human life on this realm. And he said, "So you, you can't stay here." What do you do with that when you're embedded, infused, saturated, marinating in love? When you're finally suddenly whole and complete and not so fractured and and messed up. And I was like, "No way am I going back. Why would I go back? Um, I'm here. I'm home. You got to be kidding." And, but I could feel that authority, right? And that compassion. I could feel every truth that he was speaking. There was no way I was going to win the argument. And as much as I protested, he, he just looked at me, looked into me with this wisdom, and he put his hand on my shoulder and he just said, "It's going to be okay. We will be with you." It's interesting, it, uh, plural. Um, of course, we, we speak of guardian angels, we speak of celestial entities, we talk about consciousness far beyond this physical realm. And it's more real than this, right? What I touched upon is was more real than any reality I've experienced on this level. And I just touched my toe on the doorstep. Um, it's such a beautiful story that you had. Yeah, it's always incredible to hear these stories.
I know in your book you said it felt as if I had returned to a place hidden deep in my soul. I knew it, right? It was more like I was remembering it. Um, it was home. It was what is always deep down in the core, but I didn't know how to access it. I didn't know how to touch it. Now, I, I do in, in a small part. Now, I, as a psychosspiritual therapist, I work with many people, uh, virtually and in person, and I help them connect to that, which is such a beautiful grace in the midst of the trauma and chaos that we know all too well in this realm. But it looked like I had to return to it. And when you returned, you woke up. You had a doctor and a nurse that were standing, or I guess crouched, over you. Yeah. Um, a hospital chapel is a great place to die. You got all the bases covered, right? And they had moved all of the patients and their family members out, right? Cuz I, I was dead. I was gone for 15 minutes. And when I woke up, which is the worst part of near-death experiences, um, the, just how everything becomes compressed. It's so dense, and not only your body, but your thoughts and your, your feelings and your memories and your, your entire consciousness becomes distorted and squashed in. And I, I woke up, and I could feel this place sort of diminishing or or receding away from me. And I immediately was like, "No, no, not, not here." Right? And I tried not to cry. Um, I was so upset that I was here. And they, I opened my eyes. I could hear their voices, right? "David, David, are, are you here?" And I, I opened my eyes and I said, "Yes, yes, I hear you. I, I know." Right? I collapsed many times. I, I had taken my life into my hands every time I got in the pulpit, right? But I didn't know it was another tumor. I just thought I was a nervous wreck. So to be honest, when they diagnosed the tumor, I was relieved because it meant I wasn't a nervous wreck, that I could do what I felt my heart calling me to do, as long as I survived the operation. But they didn't find it for quite a while at the hospital. They checked my vitals. They wrapped me in a blanket. They gave me some orange juice. Beside a bump on the head, they couldn't find anything. So they sent me home. And I, I write in the book that when I got home, I just crawled into the bed and I grieved. And I grieved. I didn't tell anyone. I, I, um, I didn't talk about it from the pulpit. What do you do when your consciousness moves from this state to one so expansive and then compressed back? You're going through existential dissonance, an entire disruption in who and what you are and what reality is. So it takes most adults 10 years to integrate these. It took me, um, it took me less time than that because when I, uh, did return home after internship was done, that's a year-long training program. Uh, they did find the tumor because I went for my regular annual cancer test and they take some blood samples and fluid samples. The markers were there, so I knew I had another one. But I also discovered that I, uh, I felt different, and I could feel energy between my hands. And, um, so I began exploring that, and I learned therapeutic touch, and I learned about the energetic anatomy. You know, you know, as ministers, as clergy, we're taught to lay our hands on the sick and pray in the name of Jesus. But I didn't understand what that meant. I didn't understand that to pray in the name means to pray or commune in the character of Christ. I always thought you just took the name and you tagged it on the end of a prayer, and that was the stamp. No, no, no. This is about calibrating your consciousness to resonate with love. For God is love. And open up. Stop getting in the way. Open up and allow. Beautiful things happen.
What a road. During your experience, I know you felt connected to everything. Can you compare that to our earthly lives here?
Huh? How to put it? Here we experience ourselves as separate beings, right? In a world of separate objects, and an ego, simply put, is a separate self. And yet, what I touched upon and what I've learned since shows that nothing is separate. The divine, or God, or source, or love, the underlying consciousness from which all reality emanates and by which it is sustained, cannot be divided, for it is infinite and immortal and omniscient and transcendent in its qualities. So it can't be divided. That means that all of this, and you, and me, and your viewers, are simply unique expressions of the one, which is the divine.
In your book, you say, "We are all God pretending we are not. We are all God in disguise."
Right. So I'm not claiming to be God in an egoic, egoic way, right? Uh, I love in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition, they talk about, uh, I think the term is *theosis*, your god in essence but not in function. So that's a complicated thing, but it means the divine spark is in everything. Every, everything is a manifestation of it. It also, this is puzzling, but it's logical. It also means that existence has many objects, but objects don't have any existence, because the one source cannot be divided into separate objects. Everything shines with the divine presence if we have the eyes and the heart to see it. So, you know, this is why if you say "Namaste," it means the divine in me greets and sees the divine in you. Everything is sacrament. Which also tells us that we should, I guess, recognize this amazing source of love, uh, that we are, or a part of, and live that way. Yeah. But how do you do that when someone is being awful, angry, hurtful, dangerous? How do you do it when you look in the mirror and you see something you think is unlovable? Mhm. Someone you feel is not worth it? How can I honor the light in you even when you don't honor it in yourself? Right? Like, I think this is what it means to resonate or calibrate your consciousness to love. It's, it's why Jesus said, "Love your enemies. Forgive those who persecute you. Whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me." You know, he, he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane and he said, "May they be one, even as you and I are one. Me and you, us in them." Right? And that, that's why the disciples kept saying, "Show us, show us God." Right? Show us the divine, the presence. And he's like, "You don't understand. You're not seeing it." It's interesting because the emphasis in some churches is often, you know, being poor, miserable sinners. And I think it's drummed into us so much that we don't recognize the beauty, right? But the church is not emphasizing what the word "sin" means. It simply means separation. So I'm living from the perceived self that perceives itself as separate from God. And yet, that unity, that connection is always deep down. It can never disappear. So how do we, how do we touch on it? How do we remember? It's a matter of returning to simple awareness. So here, here we're talking, and your viewers are watching the screen. I invite all of you right now to step back from your experience a bit. Notice how your body feels right now, and notice what your thoughts are doing. Don't stop your thoughts. Just notice them. They're, they're going to be flowing by every 3 seconds or so. Let them do that. Step back and watch. Step back and watch your feelings. Maybe you're feeling a bit curious. Where is he going with all this? So notice the feelings. We're allowing the experience. What is the quality of the one who is watching? Can you, can you touch upon the texture of simple awareness? Now, to do so, you have to be quiet. You have to be still for a, for a little while. So, uh, a spoiler alert, what you'll probably find, if you can touch upon it, is that it's very neutral. It's not affected by experience. It's very calm. It doesn't want anything. So in that respect, it is content. It is unaffected by whatever is happening to you. Simple awareness. You're touching upon the nature of the divine, which can allow all experiences but is not changed by them, yet loves through them. And any experience that separates us from that wholeness is simply a call for the community to love all the more and help everyone wake up, because we're all just walking each other home.
Which is another reason I need to focus more in my meditation because I know that's one place. Oh, yeah. We spend a lot of energy avoiding ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Time to come home.
A few more questions about your near-death experience. In your book, you say the light was saturated with joy. Can you explain that?
Um, it's not an emotion. The joy was a, a resonance. It was music, and yet not music. It was, it was the life force, and yet not anything that forced itself. It was a celebration. It was praise. You know, I think in my near-death experience, it's the only time I've really gone to church. Interesting. All other services have been mere echoes, feeble attempts to get out of our own way. And, and the joy was possible because I gave myself to it. This was surrender, not as giving up, but as waking up, um, not believing anything, not believing everything, I think, not being controlled by everything I feel, not being defined by everything I appear to be. Um, in this unity, right? Think of the joy you have when you see someone you, you love after a long absence and you're reunited. Part of you is restored because as we love, we merge our consciousness with each other. So, it's all about the love.
You wanted to go to the tree. And by the way, I often hear about trees and these experiences. Um, what do you think was beyond that tree?
Um, everything. Um, if it was as simple as a bunch of other rolling hills, it would have been everything. If it was a celestial city, or or or galaxies, or civilizations, it would have been everything. It, it, it would have been permanent for me. And now I'm homesick.
Even in this place that you were, you pointed out something in your book which was so obvious, but I guess I really missed it when other people have shared their near-death experiences, but you still had emotions such as sadness because you didn't want to leave. And so you still had some very, what we would call human-like qualities, right?
Um, I was temporarily transformed. I was still me, and still had the capacity to feel all the range of emotions, not only sadness, but, uh, I, I got a little argumentative. I got, I got stubborn. I didn't want to come back. So I think that, you know, I don't think we sit on a cloud playing a harp with no intermission in heaven. I think we continue to grow and evolve and feel and so many activities. Um, I appreciate many near-death experiences have reincarnation as an aspect of it. So if that's a thing, I, I simply conclude that the afterlife is a lot more complicated than our little brain can realize. But we are still a human soul. It doesn't mean you're blissed out. It means you're more fully human than ever. So if there's anger in heaven, it's a righteous anger. If there's passion in heaven, it's a holy passion. Right? If, if there's the complexities of what it is to be human, then they are there in their fullness, their wholeness, and their healthiest form. Hey, we'll all find out one day. I love that explanation. Thank you.
Something else you mentioned earlier, and I just want to go a little bit deeper into it, is when you parted, the being that you were with said, "We will be with you." Who's "we"?
Yeah, that's the, um, I'm, I'm sure it's the angels. It's the team that is assigned to me, and I have experienced their support. I had cancer two more times, right? And, um, um, both of them involved celestial intervention. Uh, in one of them, they, um, they lost me, almost lost me on the operating room table, and then they pulled me back. And then I'm in the ICU afterwards. You have to be in the ICU for about a week after this operation. And there was a code blue. And, uh, I know what that means because I'm a chaplain, right? Well, I'm retired now. I have a private practice, but code blue is the emergency. Someone is is coding, or their heart is stopping, and they're, they're dying. So, I'm in ICU. I hear code blue, and I'm thinking, "Oh, I wonder who the poor soul is." And then they come crashing in through my door with the crash cart, and, uh, they said, "David, David." And I said, "Hi, guys." They looked at me and they said, "We got to hook you up. We got to do this. Got to do that." My blood pressure was dive-bombing. My vitals were crazy. They were hovering all around me. And I felt perfectly calm. Now, I had been told at a therapeutic touch retreat, so I'd gone to this workshop to learn more of therapeutic touch, and I received a treatment from Evelyn Mccay, who is a fantastic teacher, and she's standing there on the side of the, the bed I'm lying on, and she's giving me the treatment, and she paused, and she began to weep. And I said, "What's up?" And she said, "There's an angel of the most high across the bed from me." And this being, this entity was huge. It went right up. Not just through the ceiling. It's like the ceiling disappeared, or reality changed. And I'm looking around, right? That's how she described it. But what did I see? Nothing. Nothing. I'm looking around, and she's quiet, and I'm quiet. And then she, she says, "It's gone now." I'm like, "Okay, angels never show up without a message. What's the message?" She said, "The message is, it's going to be very hard this time, but we will be with you." Now, that's not comforting. I was going to have the operation two weeks after. And, uh, but I was filled with joy, and I began to laugh like I was giddy. And my stomach hurt because I was laughing so hard. And I fell asleep laughing. And when I woke up, she was gone. Evelyn was gone. I was alone. So I thought, "That's strange." And I went for a walk, and it was winter. And I'm walking on the Via Delarosa, right? So the stations of the cross. And I stop at the third cross. And a big, big, unopened green pine cone falls at my feet. That's an odd thing. I picked it up, and I felt, "This is me. I am yet to be opened." And sure enough, code blue. They, my vitals are crashing, and the doctor says, "I got to put a line in your neck. It's called a Swan-Ganz line. Got to put a line in your neck into your heart to monitor your heart." I'm like, "Sure." And they usually, you know, you have anesthetic, but he just put it in. I didn't feel that. And he began to swear and sweat, and he says, "It's, it's, it's in wrong. I got to do it again." And I'm just filled with peace, and I said, "You guys seem tense. Let me, let me sing you a song." So I begin to hum "Spirit of Gentleness," which is one of my favorite hymns. And they're looking at me, can't figure out what this guy's doing, but they get the line in, they get me stabilized, they leave. And except the nurse comes back and she says, sits down, says, "Okay, buddy. What the heck was going on there? People are usually dying or dead. They're not conscious when they, we give the drugs we gave you, and you're lying there singing to us." And I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I didn't remember the angel. I just looked at her and I said, "You seem stressed. I wanted to help." Which is lovely. To forget yourself. And then, couple weeks later, right? The angel, right? Uh, and there have been many other stories, uh, accounts. We, you know, they are with me. I'm never alone.
Do you think they're with all of us?
I think we all have angels. I think we're, we're never, all of us are never alone. Um, if, if we could perceive them, though, if we could see them all the time, it wouldn't be good for our biological survival because we'd get distracted and get hit by a car. You, you got to pay attention to what you are, how you are, where you're at. But they drop in every now and then and say, "Hi, we're here."
You're a Lutheran minister, and I, when you were 27, I assume by then you had gone through seminary. I think you said you were in, in an internship. Did this experience change anything you believe or taught?
Eventually, yes. But I had to find the language that was accurate. In the meantime, I continued with traditional Christian dogma, right? Atonement, theology, uh, the rituals and the liturgy, the sacraments of communion and baptism. But it took time. Uh, eventually, I found the language, which will not suit me 10 years from now. You always have to outgrow your theological construct of God. Any belief system you have will fall far short of the truth that's out there. But what I've arrived at is this: God is love. So love is your spiritual practice. I'm not interested in the content of your belief as much as I'm interested in the quality of your love. And I'm still doing my homework in that regard. I still love him consistently. I still get full of myself. I, I wish this upgraded my consciousness in all respects, but it did. No, it did. You don't know the circus that's inside here. We all have circuses in here. I've got a lot of monkeys jumping around all the time. Oh, yeah.
You mentioned that in your book, and you, and you did state something to this similar to what you just said. And in your book, you said, "Your spirituality is not determined so much by what you believe as it is by how you love."
Yes. So how do you love yourself? You know, the homework's going to end there. How do you forgive yourself? How do you let go of that which is not of love? And how do we? Yeah. Yeah. And if you're like me, you do it inconsistently.
Having a Lutheran minister here, I have to ask a few questions, um, that hopefully you can enlighten me. Um, I often hear this in the comments, or I should say I read this in the comments, and I'd love to hear your insight on this particular Bible verse that people bring up. And it's in regards to near-death experiences. And the verse is from 2 Corinthians, and it says, "The devil disguises himself as an angel of light." And people dismiss some of these experiences because of that. What does that verse mean? And does it relate at all to your experience and what other people have experienced?
Good question. Wow. Right. And it makes you suspicious of these near-death experience accounts. Um, God's nature is love. And one of the key biblical, um, litmus tests is to assess the fruits of the spirit. If the spiritual experiences of God, then the fruits of the spirit will manifest. But if you have been deceived, that spiritual experience is only going to end up feeding your ego, the separation, right? Uh, so let's be aware that you'll see that on, you know, with, with clergy, with really religious people, right? Their spirituality seems to serve their ego. It doesn't cultivate love, compassion, connection, abidance, solidarity with suffering, the capacity to be still and listen and not convince someone, but commune with them, and in that presence, come into alignment. And, right, that's what Jesus did. So, does it yield the fruits of the spirit? Uh, if so, then it's of God.
Well, hell, shouldn't say hell. Heck. Um, near-death experiences have a profound effect on awakening the soul. They eliminate the fear of death. Just evaporates. The person feels compelled to align their life and purpose and conduct, character to love. They try to repair the broken relationships. They, they tend to have more sense of connection to the wider reality, compassion for those who suffer, and a desire, which can result in a meandering road, uh, back to to to live their purpose. And this is not on the level of rational understanding. They're compelled to do this. So check the fruits of the spirit. If they are there, it is of God.
I've interviewed so many people now, and one of my criteria for having someone on my show is that I see what a beautiful soul they are. And, and it is just incredible to see the love and the light that you and so many other near-death experiencers strive for. And, and it really is what convinces me that the near-death experience is real and true.
I deeply appreciate that. And I want to emphasize that when you are compelled not only to love well but to become love itself, you will inevitably suffer because you come into solidarity with humanity. You open yourself to the wound of love and you embrace it, right? To, to embrace humanity. Whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me. If I see the war in Ukraine and the children suffering, I feel the pain. Can I allow myself to be impaled upon that? Yes. It doesn't mean happiness, but it means a deeper humanity than you've ever imagined.
In chapter nine of your book, Beyond Surviving, you were talking to a patient in the hospital, and you gave him a phrase to say before every action he took. And I thought it was such a great thing for all of us to think about. And it was, "This is how I love." Can you explain that?
Yeah. Yeah. It's a good phrase to help check yourself. Am I coming from a place of love? So, if I'm grumpy at the dog because it peed on the floor, and I have a 16-year-old dog, and that happens a lot, right? And I'm feeling angrier and feeling, "Okay, that's a natural, understandable response." But if I say the phrase, "This is how I love." No, that I'm going to know on that. That's not how I love. That phrase can be your, your litmus test. How about when you're, you're driving down the road and someone screams at you or honks their horn or has some road rage? Can you, can you love them? Uh, can you send them a, a quiet blessing? How about when you're having an argument with your spouse, you're frustrated with your kids, you're angry at politicians? It makes you self-aware. The power of love, even if it is seemingly quiet and personal, just a prayer or just an intention, the power of love is infinitely greater than the power of anger, shadow, darkness, selfishness, separation. And it is our spiritual mandate to love because even the smallest gestures help wake humanity up. There's no such thing as a private thought. Your feelings and thoughts will ripple out from you and affect the local environment. This has been found in research by the Institute of Nordic Sciences and other, uh, centers. Uh, think of the telepathy tapes, one of the most popular podcasts on the planet, showing that we're all naturally telepathic. What I experienced in my near-death, uh, event, what Jesus experienced throughout his ministry, the ability to read and know the consciousness of another. So, this is how I love. Don't do it perfectly. Practice, practice, practice. That is what life is about.
I'm going to add that, um, into my mindset. It's very similar to what another guest, Kellen Flukiger, said. His phrase was "Notice and choose." And basically, just every now and then, take a check, you know, notice what you're doing and and choose to do better, to always kind of notch it up a bit. And, and yours is very similar. And "This is how I love." I really like that.
So, I've mentioned your book a lot, Beyond Surviving. I really enjoyed it. Tell me more about this book, and also you have another book, Early Exits.
Well, Beyond Surviving weaves my four times with cancer and patient stories of cancer, and then reflections on how to use cancer to evolve more fully into love. How to use it to amplify life and deepen humanity. How to, how to engage the crisis for your spiritual evolution. Um, nothing is as potent a fuel as suffering and struggle for, for that enterprise. Uh, my second book is much heavier. So here it is. Early Exits: Spirituality, Mortality, and Meaning in an Age of Medical Assistance and Dying. Euthanasia, uh, which a Greek term that means a good death, is legal in Canada. And, uh, now, a person who is experiencing what they would term intolerable suffering can be euthanized by a doctor. And, uh, it changed the fundamental nature of palliative care. Now, I've been working in palliative and cancer care for 25 years, and I have been present for several of these procedures, and I sensed something was amiss, something was off. And I know the traditional arguments against euthanasia, but there was something deeper at play, and I needed to unpack that. So it resulted in the book, but it also resulted in me retiring from the hospital and moving into private practice because I can't participate in it. So the book explores in depth a complex psychosspiritual dynamic of ego formation in four stages at the beginning of life, and then the deconstruction of ego in the reverse order through four steps at the end of life. And how that suffering is predominantly existential in nature. Uh, euthanasia requests are made for the most part because of existential distress. It's understandable. "I'm going to die. I can't function in the world like I used to. I'm scared. I'm scared of the suffering ahead and the dying process. I'm worried. I'm worried about what my family is going through. I don't want to do this to them." See the language? "Wouldn't it be better for a doctor to put me down like you do with a dog? Isn't it kind?" On one level, yes. But I explain in the book how suffering on the existential level is, in fact, a spiritual process of functional ego deconstruction that calibrates us to the final stage of human development, transcendence, exhibited by the vast majority, probably, well, the research shows 90% of people who die have, uh, mystical experiences. They see their loved ones who have passed on, their ancestors, the angels, the light, the connection. This is universal. So that's an issue. Second issue, I explain in the book, is that because the nature of the requests are driven by existential distress, a medical procedure is being used to treat a spiritual condition. But the person dying, their family, the medical professionals, the politicians, the advocates, the general public are not aware of this process terminology. They're, they have no idea about the psychosspiritual dynamics of suffering at the end of life. I found not even many clergy are understanding this. So I'm stating it's an inappropriate intervention for a variety of reasons. The book is endorsed by rock stars in palliative care, leaders in the field, and I feel is an investment in the spiritual intelligence and cultural capital of our people. So I'm proud of it. It's a daunting, intimidating topic, and it's my effort to help people wake up and walk each other home in a better way.
And you do have such a unique perspective, having been a chaplain, having talked with so many patients over the years that are dying and are suffering through this process. And I've died. And you've died. Yes. Yeah. That minor little point. Yes. So I'm not diminishing how difficult dying is. I have been with incredible suffering. Mhm. Uh, the book is also a call for us to die wise, to not resist pain medication, to have honest conversations about it, to not reach continually for a tomorrow that is going to be marked by more suffering. It's complicated. Um, more than I can express or talk about in this interview, but thank you for mentioning the book is out there.
You're welcome. And, and like I said, I haven't read that one, but I have read this one, and I know it's very helpful for people who are going through cancer, but I really enjoyed it. It's, it's a very good read. I read it, like I said, about seven years ago, and then I reread it over the past couple of days, and it's actually so compelling and an easy read that, you know, I got through the whole thing in, in just a couple of days. So, I, I did really enjoy it. There's so many just little nuggets that I just, you know, would take a phrase here and there and I'd be like, "Oh, wow." You know, that's, that's so true. That's so interesting. But have some Kleenex close by. Yeah. Yeah. And you tell stories, too, of, you know, some of the patients, and, um, it's really, really a great book.
It has been so enjoyable talking to you. I feel like I still have questions. I really enjoy hearing your perspective on so many things as a near-death experiencer. Also, your background in ministry. I think you have such a unique perspective, and I've just really appreciated you being here. If there's something that you most want people to take away from our conversation today, what would that be?
Oh, um, let love be your spiritual practice. Even if you don't believe in God, okay, you've discarded the models of the divine that you've been given. They're not sufficient for you. Even if you've experienced great trauma, my heart goes out to you. But know that there is a, there is a love and a presence and a deep peace and a part of you that can never be injured by what you've been through. Seek assistance in processing that trauma so that you can have it without it having you. Focus on your love.
Thank you so much. Such wise words. Again, I've so appreciated you being here, David. I so appreciate what you're doing, Heather. This is a beautiful channel, and, and you're helping to walk people home. You're helping them wake up. You keep doing what you're doing.
Thank you so much. Thank you. I really love getting the opportunity to get to know David. Such an interesting guy. I, as I said, met him so briefly about eight years ago. I read his book, then I reread it, and it really was fun because I felt like we covered so many things in this conversation. So, I'd love to know what stood out to you, you know, what was it that we covered? Was it something that he expressed during his heavenly encounter? Was it something that we talked about? Just, um, you know, I always think it's interesting when we bring up, um, the angel of light, because I think a lot of people confuse that a little bit. That's just my opinion. Um, and I feel like he really explained that beautifully. So share your thoughts on that. Anything that stood out to you. I'd also love to know if more of you would like me to do the live Q&A. I've done a couple. I've really enjoyed them. Um, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this hour-long format versus the two shorter ones. Um, just anything, you know, that intrigues you. Maybe you want to say something about Bubby. He loves it, by the way, when people comment on him. I just want to thank you so much for being here and joining in this conversation with David. I just thought it really was a great one today. You can find out more about his books in in the description, and I'll have a link there, of course, to be able to, um, get to his books and then more information about him as well. Just really a delightful guy. Little side note about David is he's 68. So when I met him, he was just like, "Wow." In my mind, he was over seven feet tall. He's just really a tall, tall guy. Um, I want to thank you for being here today, for joining in with us. Thank you for those of you that come back week after week. I really appreciate it. To those of you who give it a like, so if you don't mind, give it a like right now. Of course, your comments always help. If you haven't subscribed, and I know a lot of you have yet to subscribe, please go ahead and subscribe. And if you hit the little bell, that'll send you alerts when new videos come out. But always come looking for me. I do put out something every single week. And I've just had so many amazing guests, and I've got so many more amazing guests to come. So always look to at some of my past episodes, and in my description, I'll have a link to that. You can also just type in "Beyond with Heather Tesh" in the Google search, and that'll bring up some too. Um, but if you go to the link in my, in the description, that'll have my playlist. So, it has everything from newest to the oldest. Thank you again, everybody, for being here today. I'm so grateful for all of you. I do hope that you have a wonderful day, and hopefully, I'll see you in the next episode. Thanks for joining me on Beyond with Heather Tesh. Please add comments and questions you'd like future guests to answer. Also, if you liked what you heard, please hit the thumbs up button and subscribe. That'll help keep this podcast going. You can also go to Beyond with Heather Tesh to look for more episodes.