Ep. 61- Billy Planer: The Lost Art Of Civil Discourse

[Music] This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights, and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of Integrative and Natural Wellness, Spirituality, Psychology, and Entrepreneurship, so you too can be winning life. Now, here's your host, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified Neuro Emotional Technique Practitioner, and Certified Entrepreneur Coach, Jason Waser.

So, welcome back to the You Winning Life podcast, Jason Waser. I'm here with Billy Planer, who I've known since I was in high school. He was a youth director for the youth group that I grew up in, but he was in Atlanta, Georgia. I was here in South Florida. And over the years, he created this insanely awesome business called Edgar 36, and it's a civil rights trip that started off for teenagers. And then within a year of being in business, the demand for starting, doing this trip for adults and other people in the community started happening for him. So, within a year, the business that he started to create had this much bigger plan and possibility to happen.

Yeah, so today we're going to talk a little bit about politics and civil rights and education and working with teenagers, how to pivot your business, especially now, what's going on for him during the pandemic, how to take a business that was fully in person, traveling around the country, meeting people, civil rights activists, leaders, stuff like that, and then having to pivot his whole business to an online-based or distance-based business. So, Billy, first of all, thank you for hanging out.

Great to be here. It is great to be here. One of the wonderful things is, you know, when you work with young people, is watching y'all become who you become and still being engaged. So, it's a thrill to be here. Thank you for having me.

Well, it's a blessing. And and and, you know, we talk about in in in Jewish tradition, there's the phrase hakarat hatov, right? To give gratitude to the people who who inspired us along the way. And and I know that, like, you know, we've kept in touch. I mean, we're talking about like, I graduated 1996 from high school, right? So, we're now, so it's a while. And as we've always, you know, when we see each other over the years, right, it always is like, for me, no time has passed. So, I'm really glad to be sharing your story with what you're doing because I've been following everything you've been doing for years, and it's such a cool and unique niche. And I just got off a coaching call with someone who's a new therapist, and they're trying to figure out what their niche is. And I'm like, well, what problem are you uniquely positioned to solve? And they started telling me about their backstory, about what they're passionate about. I'm like, okay, well, how can you do that and sustain yourself and financially support yourself without going broke, right? To help that, right? So, I, in a way, it kind of sounds like you found an incredibly unique niche. Yeah, because there was a program that was already very similar to yours, but you kind of, right? So, let's talk about, let's start there. Like, let's give people context of that background.

So, you know, you can't, uh, dismiss the urgency of having an income and being able to do something that gets you excited to do. And I'd been doing this youth work, and that's how we crossed paths for at least 15 years at this point. And I was starting to feel like, uh, I'm burning out here. And it was getting to the idea of, um, well, that's already jumping ahead. So, at this point, I was like in a panic because I knew I liked the concept of the youth work. I knew I liked the education piece. And, um, but I knew I, I needed a different venue. And so I really, I distinctly remember sitting at home on the couch on a Friday. A friend had suggested me at some point, make a list of everything that excites you. Don't read the list, just write on it for about two weeks. Don't refer back to anything. Don't try and make it make any sense. And after two weeks, I looked at it and I saw like, travel. I had been following the Grateful Dead around the country. And this, when Jerry Garcia passed, I, I sort of stopped because what I, I liked, I led the shows, but I also liked the travel to different cities and exploring the cities during the day. And then I'd meet up with my friends at night at the shows. So, so I liked travel. I liked seeing what was unique in the cities. I liked, I had already been working with my youth group, taking them to a different city every year. So, it was a loose idea of this already. I liked that a lot. And then I liked politics. I liked activism. I liked just being connected to the news, current events, and then tracing back to historical events. So, I just put it all together and I was like, oh, this isn't such a leap. Take that weekend trip that I like and just, how can I expand it?

So, on a Friday afternoon, I remember just sitting, I pulled out a map. And I had been influenced too. I've been reading books. And I read a book called The Magic Bus by Doug Brinkley, who took his students from Hofstra on a five-week, six-week trip around America. But his was more based on literature, but it was what's unique in the cities and tying things together. And I actually, and I, I highly recommend this, I reached out. You know, reach out to the people who influence you. And I wrote to him and said, you know, I read your book, I created this program with my youth groups, I just want to thank you. And he wrote back, actually. And we are still in touch to this day. Um, you know, uh, and and so really, I, I don't recommend people, uh, reading that book. You'll see how much I stole from him, um, completely. Between that and West Wing is my whole summer trip right there. Um, but yeah, just sitting there on the couch, putting it together and realizing I don't have to take a huge leap. But what would a trip around the country look like? And and I knew I wanted the summer trip to be about history, politics, and activism. So, I wanted them to meet with all sides of political issues. So, for example, I was thinking, what's big with teenagers? This was 2002. So, this is four years after Columbine. So, I knew that guns were going to be an issue, guns and schools. So, in Denver, I was able to meet up with a father whose son was killed at Columbine High School. He's a major gun control advocate because I saw on the news he was speaking. And I just Googled him. I mean, this is the other big lesson is there, everybody's like, how do you meet these people? What's the magic lesson? I wish I had a sexier story. I would just Google and write to people. And I think people like talking about their stories. So, I'm giving them a platform. Um, and then we meet with a lobbyist of the National Rifle Association. So, that they get a balanced approach to issues. Um, and so it was taking a map of America, where do I want to go in America? What makes sense logistically? What makes sense issue-wise?

So, I figured literacy in America. That's an important issue to talk about. Something we don't even understand in a country of so much, how we can have 40 million illiterate people in this country and the impact it has on us. By the way, the gentleman who meets with us, I just Googled. I was figuring, okay, San Francisco, I want to take him to City Lights Bookstore. It's the bookstore Jack Kerouac and the Beatniks. It's personal to me. I fantasize about the Beatnik movement. And I was like, that would be a great place to do the literacy talk. And I happened to find a gentleman who learned how to read when he was 44 years old. And now he runs a program called Project Read. You know, ironically, he's on the library staff. But, um, you know, he met with us in the bookstore. And I was like, this is it. This is the ultimate. Um, but how it, how it connects to you is he was saying some of his friends who are illiterate work. One worked in a control tower in an airport. I was like, well, that's being connected to people we don't even understand. Or one of his friends worked in quality control in a pharmaceutical lab. I mean, it's hard to read those names of the medicine to begin with. He just counted letters and hoping he was putting the right pills. Wow. It's all connected. And and then he took it a step further. He said, I learned how to read. One person spent one hour a week teaching me how to read. I'm not trying to get to your wallet on the streets. Now I have a job. I have respect. I have self-respect. So, and he turned to the teenagers and said, so it is about you. And I was like, this is it. This is powerful.

So, I guess back to your original point is, um, your pivot doesn't have to be a huge just change. For some people, it is. But then to take the risk to start it. So, I created it as a not-for-profit. It really came down to me. People are asking, but I'm scared of the risk. I'm scared of the risk. To me, it truly came down to the risk of staying where I was and doing what I was doing and feeling like I was dying a little bit each day was greater than the leap. Right? Yeah.

And and I totally understand that because having worked in the community, you know, in the same type of programs you worked with, I remember there was a story that I always tell when people like, well, how did you decide you wanted to go into business? And, um, I remember one day, because when you're working in community nonprofits, there's a board, and there's people that, like, you know, you're you're getting paid for something that you know that you should be getting paid more for, and your heart and your soul is in it, and you don't want to, like, you know, and you have your relationships. But I remember one day I realized that the janitor and I, yeah, were getting treated the exactly the same way by the staff. Yeah. And I'm easily replaceable by the board. Sorry. I knew that my value was there. I knew that what I was offering and what I was giving and what I was, you know, the connections I was having was building incredible relationships. But I was still immediately replaceable. And someone else would be put into my position. That, right? As we know, that it's just a, you know, interwoven community of bouncing around one line.

Jason, is you're only as good as your last program. That was always a philosophy I had in my mind. Um, I, I do have to paint. I completely agree. I've heard horror story upon horror story. I was very fortunate. I was at places that treated me well. Um, but I will say, to many of my colleagues, I would have to say this, because they would turn to me when I, we would talk about, you know, salary or raises or things like that. And they're like, well, it's easy for you, you work here. I like, well, actually, part of it is you make it happen too. So, while I get in the nonprofit world, you don't have complete control over how you are, uh, um, treated, how they look and value you. So, I, I do want to sympathize with that. But I do want to put out there that some of it is how you let yourself be treated. So, like, I remember being in a youth director conference, and we're talking about salary negotiations and all that. And I said, I walked in and expected a 10% raise. And people were like, well, I can't ask for that. I can't ask for that. And I stood up and said, you know what? Because you won't, you're screwing me over. By the way, I was like, so I'm a little pissed at y'all too. Um, but look, the nonprofit world is the nonprofit world. Your truth was probably more truthful. You know, it's probably more widespread than my, what happened to me. But I do think part of it is how you present yourself and what you expect. Um, I used to always tell my friends too, uh, you got to treat yourself like the rock star you think you want to be treated as, you know, and I think it will come around. But yeah, getting out of being directly impacted by outside forces. I mean, you know, if you're running your own business, you're a control freak beyond control freaks. So, being, uh, impacted by other people didn't sit well either. And I was having a really good experience. It was just more an internal struggle for me, the reason I left, um, and moved on to my own, uh, thing, which makes sense for a lot of people.

So, there's this dynamic of an entrepreneur versus an intrapreneur, right? The intrapreneur is like, you buy into the value of everything that you want to, um, in that, that organization, that structure, whatever it may be. But you don't realize that you can only go so far unless you decide to go become an entrepreneur and create something similar and or better. But you're right, then the risks start coming in, right? The paycheck's not going to come in, the healthcare is not going to come in automatically. And that's the big, and that's the big step when people have to realize, like, am I better off suited working for someone else that has the same values, that have the same goals, going home at the end of the day, not having to worry about taking the trash out, versus doing what you're doing where you, at the beginning, right? It was just you. How many years in did you start hiring staff? Because that's where it starts becoming, right out of my pocket. Yes.

Uh, nothing is more wild than when I hired my first staff. And I was so excited. And about two hours later, I was walking. We actually met in Chicago. I was in Chicago. I flew the person I was thinking of hiring to Chicago. We had, in my head, I would always create this ongoing documentary in my head of like, uh, telling my narrative as it's happening. I'm like, well, this will be known as the Great Chicago Meetup and really pivotal. Um, once again, creating, making myself the rock star that I wanted to be. Um, so, you know, I hired him. Uh, I was so excited. He left. And I was walking around Chicago. And about an hour, two hours later, all of a sudden, I got the most sick feeling in my stomach. I'm like, he is married. And all of a sudden, he trusts me more than I believe in myself right now. You know, I have to now. I can't screw up. Now, if I screwed up before, it was just me, and I, I would figure that out. You know, and I couldn't blame anybody else. But this person's putting their life and somebody else's life in my hands. Uh, and but you can't underestimate having your back up against the wall to have to make it. So, for example, I was just speaking to somebody the other day when I was creating this in 2002, entrepreneurship, especially in the nonprofit world, was not a big thing. It was not being funded the way it is now. It is not being accepted or valued the way it is now. And it's not the sexy thing that it is now. Right? Right. No, it was crazy. People didn't get it. People wanted to know who you connected to. And a few years later, when it started to become more accepted, people were getting seed money to do this. And I knew people who were getting like a million dollar seed money to start with. And at the beginning, I'm sitting there going, I'm in my corner, I'm God, that would have been so great. These people have no idea what it's like. But then you realize, if you're not, if the risk of going hungry is not there, you're going to make mistakes. You get lazy. And so I know people who got offices in parts of cities they should never have done. I'm 18 years down the road. My office, my bedroom's right over there. Um, you know, I'm in my place. There's no point in doing that. Um, so you don't make mistakes when you are, you're very aware when it's your, you're playing on house money. You know, you're own money there. So, there is a, you know, there's a yin and yang to the acceptance of entrepreneurship. I believe that if you are hungry, if you have to make it, you will make it. Um, if you have an exit strategy, if you know, the baseball just started last night. There's the saying of, you can't steal second base if you don't leave first base. You know, you got to step off of first base. So, um, yeah. Uh, but when I hired, uh, the person, yes. But I will also say this to entrepreneurs. I talk to entrepreneurs all the time because people spoke to me when I was first starting. And I sort of made a promise that I will talk to anybody at any time about starting something. There is something about that energy of the first year when you are scared beyond belief. But I tell them, I would go back to that any day now. I'm 18 years established. My business, well, you know, it's hard to say now, but before March 1st of this year, I was like, this business isn't going anywhere. Like, we're going to continue down. But I was like, man, I never felt more alive. Then I would wake up at two in the morning, scared out of my mind, having fallen asleep at 1:30. But at two, just sweating, crying. And then hear friends of mine going, I'm living vicariously through you. I'm like, really? Can I call you at two in the morning, three in the morning when I'm crying? Are you doing that? Because then you're not really living vicariously through me. Um, so that energy, that everything mattered, was just, it, it was a drug. I mean, that is a high unlike I've ever known.

Well, I think you started it right because those who have been following me and people who are showing up to my classes and when I'm working with my clients, I always start off with this one theme: I can't help you until we get crystal clear on your core values. Yeah. And you're basically telling us, I created a business and a model out of my core values and out of my passions. And I know that there's one thing that I've kind of heard through the grapevine that there's a music passion that you have that sometimes the music passion and your and your trip stops align in the same place.

Well, I mean, it helps. It helps when you have complete control. But, uh, right. Yes. Um, I, I will be looking around and I am a, a big Bruce Springsteen fan. And it so happens that we have coincided. One year was the first year was just naturally. I mean, I got to tell you, that first summer, the amount of adrenaline that was used for 36 days was unbelievable. And the fact, I, I just think there's a great saying, um, uh, the basically, if you take a step, Providence will follow and and take care of you. I think it's Geronimo, who said that. But, you know, so Springsteen playing in New Jersey, just so happens to be when we're pulling into New York City. Just so happens, I can find, you know, 25 tickets that are somewhat affordable. And I'm like, well, part of my budget, right there, part of my profit, there. But I'm like, I don't know if I'm ever going to be doing this again. I mean, when I did the first summer trip, I, I said to myself, I got in the mindset of, um, this may fail and I may go into debt, but that's going to be the worst thing that's going to happen to me. But I will never have to ask myself, what if? Like, the price of not having to ask that was I might not make a profit. So, I was like, I'll throw it at Springsteen right now. Let me give the ultimate experience. I may only have one shot at this trip. A few years later, when it just so happened, the same day that, uh, I, one of the school districts, might have been Boston, because we're a nationwide program, might have had too many snow days. And one of the parents said, you know, my kid is going to miss the first day or two. Or it might have been New York that impacted more of the kids on our trip. They might have to miss the first day or two because they have to make up snow days. And so I started looking at the calendar and I realized, hey, if I shifted a week, guess who's playing a giant stadium again? This could all work. And I sat back, I was like, well, it's a shame I can't, uh, make that happen. That's a pretty big thing to move. And then all of a sudden, like, I'm the one that makes that decision. So, yeah.

You know, I think, um, I get asked a lot or told a lot, this is a very selfless thing you're doing. The business model, the civil rights trips, are the summer trip. And I'm like, really? To me, it's one of the most selfish things I've ever done. We're not doing anything that I don't want to do. But how great when it lines up that what you want to do impacts people, makes a difference, and you can make money off of it. Yeah. Right.

Well, that's that self-full. Right? This idea of like, you know, it's a selfish idea is like, I always talk about this, that suffix "ish" is kind of like half-in. Right? It's is, right? So, you're not being, you're not being selfish, you're being self-fulfilled. Yeah. That you're aligning all of your passions, all of your core values, you're being around people you want to be around, and you're doing things that you want to do. And you're bringing people along with that journey that are willing to do that. That's a good for all. Yeah.

You're leaving out one important thing too. You get to be who you want to be. Yeah. You know, I'm the best version of myself on on the bus, on the road. You know, and you step into that, that person that you envisioned through the work you get to do. It's, it's a great day. It's a. And I have the audacity to like, dare to do that. Like, I was thinking about this over the last couple weeks. So, three weeks ago, I actually packed up my entire office. So, actually, the beginning of my lease was up at the end of June. Yeah. And was debating back and forth. The landlord, they were very gracious and giving significant discounts on all of, on, you know, on the office. And I'm like, it's just not worth it at this point. Like, I don't know when I'm going back. I don't need a storage unit. Yeah. You know, and so I packed up my office, which was, if I had to make that decision overnight, it would have been a heartwrenching, anxiety-provoking decision. But since I had three months up to that to do this every single day, like, I'm talking to you now, as how I'm seeing my clients, it was kind of a no-brainer. And the emotionality around it was a lot less. I mean, it's still sad at a level, but it wasn't like, oh, this is awful. How am I going to be a therapist without a practice? And now I've been thinking about it, I'm like, I can be anywhere in the world. Sure. Work East Coast hours and still have, right, what I want to do, right? So, but I've always figured like, how am I going to get that? How am I, if I don't want to live in South Florida, even though my family's here, like, how can I pull this off without losing business or having to start over practice again? And now this, because of the pandemic, this allowed me the opportunity to do what I want. I'm not traveling anywhere right now. But now my clients know, if they want to work with me, I'm never probably going to be back in person again. Right? So, I mean, there's always opportunity in opportunity. I mean, you know, you could look at the pandemic right now and be like, this is killing everything. But in any crisis, there's going to be opportunity. I mean, you know, Wall Street collapses, many people say that's when you start buying. So, there is. But I want to go back to another thought I had when you were speaking about this. Is this is a fundamental thing that took me a long time to really wrap my head around as an entrepreneur. Is it only has to make sense to you? Right? We live in a world of shoulds, of this is how it is, this is how it should be. And you sort of got to be there. And I will go, no. There's a great feeling of when you go down that path for a little bit and then you stop yourself and go, actually, no, I don't. This, this path over here makes as much sense. That's just a more well-worn path. So, it only has to make sense to you.

I, uh, the first few years of, um, creating the business, and I, I do want to say, we were getting there at some point. At the beginning, I can't underestimate. And I, I tell people this all the time when I'm speaking to them, is the best time to start your business is when you have another job. So, for the first year and a half, I had another job. So, the risk was mitigated. Um, and luckily, I'm not sure the other job completely understood how much I was going back and forth. Um, I may have been out of town when they thought I wasn't in town. And even to this day, but especially when I create, when I left and started, uh, full-time on my own, I would still have a little guilt feeling when I'd be on the road. I'm like, am I supposed to be here or not? Um, but the, um, the should. Oh, for a long time, I would have what what people have called, like, the the the Olympic judges in your head or the committee in your head. Where I felt felt like I was, any move I was making, I was hearing their voices of judgment. And all of a sudden, one day, I'm like, there's actually not there. There are no judges. And hard for my ego to hear. I was like, I don't think people are thinking about what I'm doing as much as I think they're thinking about it. So, that was incredibly freeing. Um, and I heard Paul Simon, the singer, uh, say this once. He told a story. I heard him speaking. Somebody asked, you know, so you're Paul Simon, this is only about seven, eight years ago. Your place in rock history is set. What's it like to write music now? And he goes, oh, I'm not there in my head. He goes, but this is how it happens. I'll write a song, and then the voices in my head, the critics in my head will kick in and they'll say, you know what, this sucks. You don't know how to do this. This is the worst thing you've ever written. He goes, so I sit with that for a minute. And then I look, you know, then I have a conversation with those critics in my head. And I, I ask them, what have you done lately? And then I move on. So, you know, you do have to, there is a fine line between critically thinking and thinking something through. And then letting the, the judges who don't exist, the panel, the other people who are in your head judging you, realizing they don't exist. There are so, so many clients in a therapeutic setting that I help them realize that the, they, yeah, either A, doesn't exist. And I had this a few weeks ago with a, with with someone. And we were walking through and we realized that the, they that they were talking about was someone there in their 40s. It was someone from when they were 17 years old, their senior year of high school, that they haven't seen since then. And we figured out, that's the day that they're holding up their standard against. Sure. High school, high school stays with you for a very long time. You know, your family, it's going to be your family. It's going to be your high school. Um, you know, he's on my board, though. He doesn't know it. But Bruce Springsteen has, as an advisor. You know, his whole biography is really talking about, he has a point where he says, you know, a rock star, any performer, has to come from a life of turmoil. There's got to be something that makes you want to go up on stage and share who you are. He goes, and that's a fire. But if you can focus that fire on one thing and jump on it, that's how you get to be Bruce Springsteen. He goes, but most of the time, that fire and energy can catch you on fire. So, you got to be really careful. And I would say, even myself, we were referring to there's other programs like mine. Part of the judgment in my head was, if I fail, these other programs be like, yeah, look, they can't, he can't do what we're doing. And it works for a while. You feed off that energy. It's what keeps you going at three in the morning. It's what makes you triple check things when you're tired. It, it, it gets you going. But at some point, it doesn't work for you anymore. You're just become, we'll bring in other musicians, you become the angry young man from Billy Joel's song. You know, and you become anachronistic, you become boring, useless. You're just angry. Uh, the anger and the I'm going to show you works really well the first couple years. But once you have sort of made it, is it, it's not, it's not a good look on you just to react in anger.

Well, it's such an interesting, as a, as a pivot point in the conversation, that just sums up the world of politics that we're living in. Yeah. That there's a, and there's suffering, and there's, I'm more right, and I'm going to prove it to you, and I'm going to hear to prove you wrong because I don't like your model. Yeah. But that again, only goes so far versus what you've created in this program. It astonishes me that even though you may have your own personal biases, that you still are going out of your way to say, this is how we do it. This is, you have to sit and talk to the other side. And I, and I have this, I've, um, lived when I lived in Atlanta in 2001, for a little bit. There's one of the families I become incredibly close with there. They're on the other side of the political spectrum with me. But we always have intellectual conversations. And they may throw their jabs in, whatever it is, because, you know, we love each other. But it's like, but at the end of the day, we can still talk about like, oh, I understand what you're saying. I don't, I'm starting from a different point and a different paradigm and a different perspective. But your system makes sense when you explain it from there. Now, I don't fundamentally agree with that, but it's logical. Right? Right.

So, let's talk a little bit about this is teenagers, right? And this was, you started this just as the internet was really kicking in. Was not Facebook yet, I don't think, right? Right. Yeah. So, so what was that like?

Well, face, yeah, there was, there was Facebook. It was just on campus, as it wasn't what we know it is now because it was ready. Started off as a college campus, uh, program. Yeah. I was creating this on a Mac Classic still. Uh, I was working on a Mac Classic that I could pick up and take from my desk to home with the clear back. Was that the one with the, no, right before the, that was iMac, I think. But yeah, I could pick it up off my desk, take it home. I was like, this is portable. This is great. Um, but, uh, right. Somebody told me the other day, they're like, you actively seek uncomfortable conversations with your program. And I was like, it was so obvious to me that I never really thought about that. But I'm like, yes. Uh, so the whole premise of the summer trip, uh, of of E36 summer trip, is to engage in the lost art of civil discourse. And so the first four days, the teenagers are on the civil rights journey, Atlanta, Montgomery, Birmingham, Memphis, Little Rock. And on the night, Thursday night, we're preparing them for their first meeting on Friday morning. They're gonna meet with pro-life Texas. Now, 99.9% of the teenagers on the trip would consider themselves at this point, pro-choice. Right? So, they are going to meet with the other side of the discussion. And we sit them down to not only go over the, we have a framing discussion so that they have an idea of the, the words that are used, what are the concepts? You know, because we'll have teenagers that have worked on campaigns before. And we'll have, uh, teenagers on a trip whose parents want them to be more engaged, but might not have even known these were issues. So, we got to make it work on all levels here. Uh, and I don't want a teen showing up to these meetings cold and not knowing what's going on because this is sometimes a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. But I do want to say that what I'm about to talk about, the tips and tools of engaging the uncomfortable conversation, I'm framing it as we talk to teenagers. It works for adults. It's as relevant for adults. Uh, there's not a huge gap, all the time, between the teenagers and the adults. Uh, when I have adult trips, they're like, I bet we're easier. I was like, no, actually, not at all. More stubborn. We're stuck. Right? So, that Thursday night, after we do our, what we call the framing discussion, we talk about the pros and cons of the issue of abortion, the language. And they're ready to go with a baseline of knowledge into the meeting. Then I talked to him about how the meeting is going to work. I said, you know, for the first, let's say it's an hour and a half meeting, hour, hour and a half meeting, the first 20, 25 minutes, the person's going to speak. And they're meeting with the executive director of Pro-Life Texas. This gentleman, lives his life as a Christian, according to the Bible, because it's in the Bible is reason enough for him to, uh, live a life that way. And he's been in the pro-life movement his whole life. So, he is committed to this. So, I, I say to the teenagers, we need to re-evaluate or reframe or create a new paradigm over what is success in a discussion. Because in America today, success would be for me to be right, you have to be wrong, and I have to make sure you know you're wrong. And ideally, create a clip that can go viral on MSNBC or Fox, right? So, I said, throw all of that out the window because we are going to engage in civil discourse. We are going to engage with a person who, I don't think there's going to be a 15, 16, 17, 18, 40-year-old person who's going to say something that this person is going to be like, oh, you know what? You're right. Let's go allow abortions to happen. So, take away the pressure that you're going to have to convince him to change his mind for there to be success. Perhaps success is going to be, this is exactly what you said, can I make a connection? Can I see where they're coming from? And there's a few options at this point. I can buy what they're selling. I can, I don't have to pick up at all what they're putting down. I can reject it wholly. And that means I can then go back to my beliefs and be like, yeah, I'm, I'm okay with where I'm thinking. Or can I tweak a little bit and say, that made some sense. I might not believe this 100% anymore, but this, I may integrate in and let it percolate for a while. Right? But the other part is, it is okay to hear another side. It does not devalue your opinions to engage and let somebody keep their opinions. Because we talk about this, at the end of the day, what difference does it make to me if Jason, if you think a different way? Okay, that's what America is all about. That's what a marketplace of ideas is. Now, I do think I'm right about this issue, but you're not following my, my opinion. Okay, have at it. I think eventually you'll come around. But so, we're also not going to engage in hypotheticals. I tell them, you know, there's, stop thinking of the questions. Well, if an alien form came down, was going to blow up the White House, unless your wife had an abortion. I was like, thank you for wasting our time just now. But also, and this is really important, talk about the issue, not the person. We're not going to make this person right. Policy over politics. Yeah. But I mean, politics is in there, right? And also, we have to talk to the teenagers. But I think we have to talk to the adult population too. And this is not heard well all the time. But so stick with me for a second. I tell them, this is not a politically correct trip. Because I think PC speech, purity speech, eliminates discussion. It stifles debate because we're so scared about our words. We become so precious about our words. I tell them, how you disagree. Well, I, let me back up. Disagreeing is not rude. How you disagree can be rude. So, it's okay to disagree. It's okay, at the end of the day, to stand up and go, thanks for your time, but I'm not buying it. We're going to agree to disagree. I appreciate you for taking taken time. I learned some things. I learned things I'm not going to carry on with, but thank you. So, that then all of a sudden, it's a human connection. And can you hate that person? Or can it be, I just don't agree with his ideas? And so, there's, there's just a, a great story. One of the high tension meetings in our summer trip is with a gentleman named Jim. Who, he has worked his whole life, political life, leading up to the marriage equality, uh, fight. And he's anti-marriage equality. He led the campaign in Colorado against marriage equality. So, this is a generational issue. He'll even admit his kids have no problem with marriage equality. The conservative right kids on our trip have no problem with marriage equality. And so, he knows he's coming into a discussion. But he's also a professional speaker. He's a radio show co-host. He's, he's done all of this, right? So, I am throwing kids, and this is only a week, about 10 days into the trip, I'm throwing these kids in. And I will say to the teens, credit, I have had openly, uh, gay kids on the trip who not one of them has asked not to go to the meeting. Which, in today's standard, it's huge. Yeah. It's huge. Wow. One, we had to have a discussion with and said to me, I'm very uncomfortable with this. I'm like, you should be. He is going against who you are as a person. And she was like, I don't know if I can sit there. I was like, you need to sit there. I was like, but listen to this. You've got however many kids were on the trip. You have a community right here that has your back. You're friends with everybody, right? She said, yeah. I was like, so don't let him define you. You have a strong sense of who you are, right? So, sit there. And she did. She actually even engaged in the question. I've had an openly gay young man, uh, ask his question by starting, this was powerful. He's like, hi, my name is, uh, David, and I am openly gay. And I appreciate that you don't hate me. And I have a question. And Jim's like, I don't hate you. I just want to talk with you. And it was a powerful piece to be at. Because people would argue maybe Jim does. I, I don't know. He doesn't present it as. But powerful story was this. There was, uh, at the end of one of his discussions, well, there's two actually powerful stories. At the end of one of his discussions, one of the participants raises her hand and said, Jim, there is nothing I agree with you about. And actually, there's nothing about you I like. Now, that's already a little harsh of a statement. But it slipped out. But Jim is also, I know Jim is a professional. I know he can defend himself. And, um, Jim said to her, really? There's nothing about me you like? And she looked him up and down. She goes, well, Jim, I like your shoes. And he said, okay, if I could buy these shoes and you like them, can I be completely horrible? She goes, no, you have good taste in shoes. He goes, great. Let's start our connection there. And then the other one is this. After one of the discussions, at the end of every day, we have what we call a wrap-up discussion. And we meet Jim in Colorado Springs, Colorado, which is also home to one of the most beautiful rock formations ever, The Garden of the Gods. So, I take them to Garden of the Gods. We climb up into the mountains and onto some of the rocks and have our debrief there. Because I'm like, you guys need to exhale and take in all this. And we're going around. And this had to be in 2008, 2009, I think. There was a young man, it got to his turn. And he said, you know, this is a hard, this was a hard meeting for me. And I need to do something that I know I've needed to do, but haven't done. And he came out. He said, I'm a, I'm a, I am gay. Now, Jason, I'm, I'm 53. So, back then, mid to late 40s, grew up in the 70s and 80s. So, to me, I hear it and I'm like, wow, this is amazing. The even more amazing part is the next teenager looked at the kid and goes, that's great. Here's what I thought of the day. Just kept going. And I, I want to stop right, like, did everybody hear what just happened? But, um, yeah, uh, so, you know, it's, it's, it's taking down the temperature. It's really trying to take down the temperature all together.

Yeah. I just had a friend of mine from my business community that I've been involved in the last three years, is a wonderful person. He's a successful business person. He's an incredible family man. I have such respect for him. And he started posting some stuff over the last, you know, number of weeks on certain stuff going on. And I responded something because he quoted something about Florida. And I responded, since I live here. And he talked about our county, Broward County. And I wrote back to him, I said, I don't know where you're getting your information, but what you just posted was not true. I actually have direct information from someone in the medical field in Broward County who, you know, is very high up and who I very much respect. And then I wrote back a minute later, I said, by the way, any further conversation coming from this post, I want to just put it out there first, how much I respect you as a human, as a dad, as a husband, and as the business owner. Yeah. Before we continue the next things. Right? It's, yeah, yeah. And and I haven't done that before because I've gotten, we've all gotten ourselves stuck in stupid Facebook posts because no one's ever won an argument on Facebook. Right? But like, I got pulled into it about a month and a half ago, two months ago, and it was just like, so stupid. And it ruined my entire day. Right? So, I made the commitment. And I talk about this a lot in my classes and what I'm doing with my clients. I'm like, you can pull yourself into a bad feeling place. And it's not the other person's fault about any issue that might be on the other side of the coin. It's on you to.

Be responsible for how you feel about that, not them. Facebook brings up a whole another ball of wax. I, uh, I view Facebook as a tool. Look, I enjoy it. Uh, anybody that tells me they're going to friend me on Facebook or send me a request, I'm like, "I'm just warning you, this could get like..." I, I tell all my friends, "I get it if you drop me." Like, I, I will get into it. I actively will post what I'm thinking. Yeah, and it's a, you know, somebody said to me the other day, they're like, "I love the dance you do because I'm very clear what I think, and yet I run a program that's all about both sides, both sides." So I think there's integrity that that has to be there. Um, I, I think that my friends on the right know that I will allow them to have the space to push back, and that's why I can get away with posting my true opinions there.

But, you know, Facebook brings up the whole idea, what you're the few points I, I, I make on how to be comfortable in an uncomfortable conversation, right? You know, few things. One, keep breathing. You know, you gotta breathe. Secondly, is present your views and have a point of view, by the way, you know, uh, but allow the other person you are addressing to present their point of views, because that's what you want to question and push back on, not the person. You know, most of these people are my friends. I'll admit, some of the people I engage with are not. I'm shocked they were, and I'm shocked where this has gone. Uh, and that's where I feel bad. I, I love the back and forth. I have friends are like, "But how can you stand the pushback?" I'm like, "If I'm putting it out there, that's my expectation is that it's going to happen." Isn't that what we want? Reaction, right? Isn't that what we want? I don't need you to agree with me for us to be friends.

But what I do find sometimes, in what is unique about now, is it, it has crossed over into humanity issues too, and I'm shocked with some of the people I thought I knew. But they're, they very equally could be shocked by me. But so it's really reflect on you. I want to reflect on the points and statements they're making, once again, not the person. Um, and everything doesn't have to end in agreement. How boring would that be? Um, look, I feel I'm right, but I get that other people might not. And I do allow, I could be wrong, you know, and, and, and for right now, I, you know, it works for me right now. But that's the biggest gift to be able to say that, right? Like, and especially, you know, I've been giving since the pandemic. I started off teaching right before the pandemic started for a nonprofit, young professional organization. I was doing like a Wednesday night group learning, yeah. Um, and it was on psychology and leadership in the weekly Torah reading and the weekly Bible reading. And then it evolved. And then once, you know, the pandemic kicked in, I could do it on Zoom. Right now, I have people as far as Brazil and all the way up in North and New York that are attending this from all different circles in the Jewish community. And then I'm starting to do, I have these two other classes I'm doing for like, you know, relationship and life stuff and unpacking your stuff stuff. And I always say, like, if you're here, I want to let you know that I'm aware that this is my forum, yeah. However, I also reserve the right to be 100% wrong. And I'm honored that you continue to show up. And I also want you to give me your feedback and your opinion and disagree with me if you disagree, because I want this to be a space where it creates that environment, sure, to do that. Yes, it's my class. Yes, it's, but it's not, but it's not a lecture, it's an engagement.

One of last week, I posted, there was something that was posted and a buddy of mine, um, who's a chiropractor up in Pennsylvania, posted something and the response was so like shocking that I was like, I was thrown off by it. And my sister reached out to me, she's like, "Who the hell is so and so?" And I'm like, "I don't like, like he's such a nice person, he's such a gracious." I'm like, "I'm like, I don't know." So I went back and I saw other people posted on that thing and I'm like, and I saw someone like kind of jumped on him and I'm like, "Hey guys, if you're going to continue this dialogue, I want you to both to know that I know both of you personally and I think both of you are incredible people who I very much respect. Whatever is gonna happen from here, start from that place, right?" And like, it was kind of like, and then what happened? The response that he wrote back with all the research from his perspective, right? Was, this is just, it was data, it wasn't philosophy, right? And I'm like, "Okay, good. Now we're back to normal. Now we can have that." Right? But, but, but I've been really conscious of that mindset of right, that whole Namaste, what's the, the phrase Namaste mean, right? The, the, the, the, the soul of me honors the soul of you. Or as your shirt says, for people who are not on the video, they're listening to the audio, it says, "Stay Human." Right? Human acknowledges Michael Franti, right? Who's incredible. I think he's one of the musicians that I've probably seen the most live. Ah, well, you walk away feeling good. It's cheaper than a therapy session, right? It's world peace. Him and Idan Raichel, the Israeli musician, those are the two musicians that like, at that level, bring that peace. Yeah. Michael Franti would be somebody I would try and get the group to see if, if we cross paths there. Um, but, uh, Jason, yes, and that, you know, I, I think with Facebook or social media, you can set some ground rules. And I think people understand that mine is like, you're coming into the cage, you're coming into the debate, uh, and you gotta, you gotta take care of yourself. I'm not going to defend either side. And, and sometimes I'll drop, I'll do the post and then check out. I don't, I don't even ever come back to it. But people will go at it. And, you know, um, one of the things I like is that when my friends who disagree with me come into it, that I don't have to respond. I have other friends who think like I do respond. And I'm like, "How powerful, they see other people think this too. They know I do." But also, I, I tell all my friends, I was like, "Jump in. I encourage you to jump in, but you got to be able to swim. This is not the shallow end of the pool here." Uh, we're not going to feel good. And this isn't correct. And I've actually, the, some of the only times I edit is when people start to put in the PC approach to it. And I'm like, "No, no, no, no. This is a free forum here. Like, it's okay that this is happening." Um, and the pushback, and you got to put on, you know, your big person pants here. Like, it, it's, it's going to be, but, but it's, it's going to be rough on an ideological level, not a personal level. And I have deleted more of my friends' comments than people I disagree with because, uh, you know, it's starting to get personal now.

My friends who agree with me, I mean, it's well known, they they can't fathom and just dislike that I have, you know, this, this continued friendship. I mean, Jim and I agree on absolutely nothing except the idea of engaging in this debate is important. So much so that like, if I call him just to set up that meeting in the summer, it'll be an hour and a half, two hour talk. But, um, one time we were talking, I was like, "Jim, I got to go, football's on." He goes, "I love football. I'm going to football too." I was like, "Jim, we agree." He's like, "Yes, we do." He goes, "I'm going to watch my Colts." I'm like, "Jim, I'm a Vikings fan. They're playing the Colts today." So we couldn't even agree with that. But I will say, a friend of mine, actually a mutual friend of ours, um, I had an election party in '16. And, um, you know, it was, if you were on the Hillary side, it was going well for a little while. And I think everybody who is on Hillary's side has a 9:15 to 9:30 East Coast time, uh, story about when all of a sudden they realized this might not go right. And Jim was somebody I called. And our mutual friend Debbie was sitting near me and she listened on the end. And I, I just remember saying to Jim, I was like, "Jim, I don't think this is going to go the way I want it to go tonight. I need to know from you that you are okay with the way this is going because I, well, I disagree age with everything about you. I've seen your humanity. And the fact that we're still friends, that it lessens it a little bit. It gives me a little bit of hope." Now, you know, three and a half years down the road, uh, that might have been wrong. But, but, uh, I remember hanging up and our friend going, "That may be the most hopeful thing I I heard." But it's humanizing. It's, we can fight all day long, but at the end of the day, okay, that's part of what makes our friendship. Yeah. And I think that's the big beautiful takeaway with right now that we, right, this pandemic is polarizing. Everything is going to become even more polarizing, right? This is the direction, unfortunately. So how important these type of conversations. And thank God for technology, but it could be a tool or it could be a, a detractor. Um, and I know over the years, I know we have just a little bit of time left, but over the years, there's been some really important people. I mean, everybody you've met is important, but, you know, I know one of those people just recently passed. Yeah, yeah, last week. So I know that, um, I'd love to hear a story or two about Congressman John Lewis, who is my congressman, as I posted, in this day, when the vast majority of Americans are disenchanted, as a nice word, about politicians, how amazing it was to be proud of who you could vote for, who represented you. Or as my mom said the other day, she said, "You know, we get these notes, write your Congressman about this." I knew I never had to because he was always on, uh, the side I viewed. Um, so Congressman Lewis would meet with all of my groups every summer. He would meet with my groups. There's just a few, just great stories. I mean, here's a gentleman who, before he even became a, a congressional leader, already lived a legendary life, was a hero to many already, and then continued, with zero ego. I mean, just so little of an ego. Now, I will say this, what people are missing is he was a shrewd politician. He could be brutal. I mean, he jumped into a race in Atlanta, uh, against another African-American man, Julian Bond, when John Lewis was told not to do it, and he didn't care. He, he, he pushed back against the established black community and jumped in. So I mean, he's not a total saint. I mean, he's a politician, you know, you got to be able to do this. But, uh, a few, just humanizing, great stories. One was, uh, the kids were in his office, as some of them have to sit on the floor, and one of the, the kids had to ask a question from the floor, and he's already in his 70s at this point, and he gets down on his knees. So he's face to face. And I'm like, "Good Lord." But also, a lot of the people who take groups to see him, we share this common story, and that, it was always great to watch the panic on his staff's face because he was running late talking to us. His staff needed to get him somewhere else. But Congressman Lewis knew this is where the work was happening, was sharing his story and talking. And there was a time, uh, in the buildup to the 2008 election, where, um, uh, Reverend Jesse Jackson said something he thought he was off camera and off mic, but the mic caught him. It was a hot mic. Still, where he said something about he was angry at, then Senator Obama, running for president. He said, "We need to castrate him." Just an off-hand comment. And one of the teens asked, uh, Congressman Lewis about this. And I'm expecting a political answer, just a vanilla or parve answer. Congressman Lewis's face scrunches up. He goes, "I don't know what we're gonna do with Jesse." You know, we, he then went on to talk about issues they had with Jesse in the movement. And then one of the kids said, "I cannot believe I'm getting a non-political answer here." But that's what he would do. I mean, he, he was the real deal there. And, um, the other funny story is when I take groups on the Civil Rights story, uh, trip, we go to Selma and we meet with a woman who is 11 years old. Her name is Joanne Bland, and she was 11 years old when she was beaten on this bridge on Bloody Sunday, the march that John Lewis led. And when she lines the students up, she lines them two by two as they did. And the two, two teens or two students in the front, she said, "You're John Lewis, and you're Hosea Williams, right?" So this is on Saturday afternoon. On Sunday morning, we're back in Atlanta. And I take my groups to church services at Ebenezer Baptist Church, the home of Dr. King and the King family. And we get off the bus, and John Lewis is walking right by us. So he stops to say hello. And I immediately turn to the group and I'm like, "Where's John? Who is John Lewis?" And the kid raises his hand. I was like, "John Lewis, meet John Lewis." And they, they just lost their mind. So he spoke to them for a little bit, and then they all walked into church together. But, um, you know, I think it, it was way harder than I thought. It hit me harder. And we knew he had, uh, cancer. I saw him like two weeks before he announced he had cancer. And I gotta say, I mean, it's sort of embarrassing to say, but I mean, he had lost weight. He lost a lot of weight. He had not announced he had cancer. And I said, "Congressman, you're looking good." He goes, "Well, I'm getting in fighting shape." Little I know, I thought he was meaning the election. He also could be meaning the cancer part. So it wasn't a shock, but boy, it hit me harder. Um, that he was still getting arrested at 80 years old, you know? I mean, just fighting the fight. And realizing that everybody's fight is wrapped up, that we are all connected, which is one of the lessons I try and get across in this, on our trips. There is no other, just another human being. And by the way, if we could stop otherizing people with our arguments, with our debates, and realizing I'm just talking to another human being. And if I, if I have one more moment, it's going to be these small conversations that's going to do it. We often think it's got to be this big programming. If you're in the white community, uh, it's, can you do a Martin Luther King Day program with somebody in the black community? It's going to take much more than that, or else this all would have been solved because those happen all the time. It's one-on-one conversations. Once again, take away the pressure of it being something huge and meaningful. It can be just talking to each other about something you have in common. See the shirt? You see this? It's a Michael Franti shirt. I like Michael Franti. I do too. How can we do this? Because in the 50s, this is how white teenagers cross the barrier to the black culture community by listening to music. And realizing Elvis is just playing black music. All he's doing. And half the black community music community hates Elvis because he stole their music. Half love him. He elevated their music to the masses. But once a white kid who's been taught that the black kid is the other, the less than, the not to be dealt with, if you're in a record store, we have to explain what that is to teenagers. But if you're in the record store and you're listening, because you used to be able to listen to the albums before you bought them, and you see a black kid who's the other, listening to the same song, and you can connect on that song, and you can talk about the fact that your parents both hate this music, which means you love this music. That kid becomes another human being. And it's over. I mean, once you become another, how much harm can you do to each other? And so if we could just cool the temperature and realize we're in this together, that my humanity is tied up into yours and yours to mine, we can disagree, but we're not going to dehumanize each other. Oh, that's massive. It's massive. So I want people to get more information from you. So I know your website is edgar.org, correct? Etgar.org. And obviously, you can be found, uh, on Facebook. But for anybody out there who's interested, uh, in, you know, at says, hopefully this pandemic is over, the teen trips will be back on. But you are still doing some activities, social distancing now. So we have pivoted in a few ways. Um, so once again, when this all goes away, please come on the road. Our summer trip is for teenagers. Our civil rights trips is for whoever, family reunions, people, adults, people who are way older than teenagers. Um, uh, come on the trip, and that's powerful too, seeing people reclaim, uh, some of their life who may have been involved in the movement. But also right now, during the pandemic, we are doing social distance trips to Montgomery, Birmingham, and Selma. But also, I online am doing talks about how to be comfortable and uncomfortable conversations. And also for, uh, the home community, my Jewish community, we're doing talks about the black Jewish connection, the myth versus the reality of the communities being together in the Civil Rights movement, and now what's happening. Um, and then the power of engagement. Here, if I have a second to tell another quick story of Selma. I was leading a group of adults and on Saturday morning, I'm not that great at small talk. Um, so I was trying to make it, I was trying to work some small talk in. And I asked a gentleman, this was an adult trip, Saturday morning, we're on our way to Selma. And this is the power of travel. I said to him, "So, you looking forward to the day?" And he looked at me and said, "No, not really." I was like, "Ah, I'm trying the small talk thing. And I pick the one person who's hating the trip. And I'm the type, if I have a hundred people there and 99 are transfixed on what I'm saying, but one person isn't, I'm focused on that one person the whole time. I'm like, "I suck at this. This trip sucks." Um, but so I said to him, I was like, "Really?" He goes, "Well, let me explain." He goes, "I was young and I had an uncle who lived in Selma. And when I was young, when I was like 14, uh, we would visit him all the time. And he said, internally, I knew I was gay, but had not come out. This is, this is the 60s." It was dangerous, or maybe even early 70s. But his uncle was a, he would stock jukeboxes, so he had records in the basement all the time. When I would visit my uncle in Selma, I could go get any records I wanted out of the basement. He goes, "So one day I'm snooping around and I open one of his drawers, and there's a Klan robe and hood in there." He said, "I knew that they didn't like who I was, fearing I was going to become a gay man." He goes, "So I ran upstairs and told my mom, we have to leave." And we never went back to Selma. I never saw my uncle again. He goes, "So this morning, um, I am on your trip to reclaim Selma for me." And Jason, 17 years of doing this, to watch him as a, I think he was in his late 50s, 60s, to walk across that bridge, he's crying. I've heard his story, I'm losing it. And we get to the other side, and he's like, "Thank you. My, I can fill this hole and have peace." I was like, "Thank you for, this is what it's all about, is just creating the humanity in each other and in ourselves." It's incredible, right? And little did you know, you'd also be a therapist. Yeah, yeah, therapy on the road. Um, yeah, it travels. It, it's incredible. It's incredible. And really, when you said the lost art of civil discourse, that's really so beautifully said. That ties it all together. So those you out there, please, please check out Billy's, you know, work and everything he's doing. And if you, not just if you, if a trip isn't for you, but you want to like support what he's doing, I know there's, you know, there's probably scholarships to help other people participate in these programs, tax-deductible, right? And tax-deductible, right? Exactly. And I remember like, just going back to like when we met around that time, like I remember like the biggest issue politically that we were dealing with, it's just hitting me, um, on that type of level, was the Jonathan Pard stuff. Yeah, was like, that was like the big thing in like the mid-90s, right? '94, '95, '96, around that time. And I remember getting the reason how I, how I first got politically active was on that issue with the rabbi from my synagogue and from another synagogue where we went down and we, we protested in front of the courthouse in Miami. We built a fake jail cell. Yeah. And we sat in it and did our protest. And, um, I remember like, we almost got arrested. Like, that was like, I'm a 15-year-old kid from Miami, like almost getting arrested for political, you know, the cops came, me like, you know, I was like, holy crap. And then to see, you know, where this whole world opens up to you of like, oh, there's stuff to fight for. There's stuff to take a stance on. There's stuff that you can be passionate about and be more human about. And going back to those moments, that it does take people like you to open people's eyes and to see that there is stuff that we can have influence and change. So first of all, congratulations for creating something really beautiful and powerful. Thank you. And, um, again, people for those out there, um, you know, if you want to track down Billy again, it's edgar.org, E-T-G-A-R dot org. And you can easily find them on Facebook. And looking forward to, uh, connecting with you again soon. This was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life Podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT.