Transcription
This is Democracy Now. democracynow.org. I'm Amy Goodman.
We turn now to look at how the US attack on Venezuela has impacted Wall Street. On Monday, the Dow Jones industrial average rose nearly 600 points to a new all-time high. Shares in the oil giant Chevron jumped 5%. We're joined now by Wall Street Journal reporter David Uberti. Thanks so much for being with us. Why don't we start off there? Um, talk about the significance of Chevron in Venezuela and President Trump saying he didn't consult Congress, but he did talk to corporate executives before and after the US attack on Venezuela and the abduction of the president.
>> Right. Well, US oil companies had a long history in Venezuela over the course of decades. Exxon Mobil, ConocoPhillips, Chevron, a number of them left Venezuela in the mid-2000s after the government nationalized many assets in that sector. But Chevron has been the sole player to continue navigating the sort of political and economic environment in Venezuela since then. More recently operating on a license agreement with the US government to basically get around US sanctions. Now, investors on Wall Street believe because of that imprint within Venezuela right now, Chevron is potentially best positioned to capitalize on any new opportunities to come within Venezuela. That said, it's an extremely long road to any of that happening. In addition to the geology that's at question with Venezuela, they have very large oil reserves. There's also the question of decrepit infrastructure in the country, which will take billions of dollars of investment and years of time, as well as the other above-ground factors at play, which mean political and legal institutions in the country that have withered over the course of time and that the Trump administration has really called into question going forward too.
>> And can you talk about Paul Singer, the billionaire supporter of President Trump, who bought Citgo, I think, at $5.9 billion. Now it's worth $18 billion.
>> Well, there's been investors across the map who have invested in various Venezuelan assets over the course of time, essentially playing the long game in the hope that something like this might happen and provide an opening for them to cash out those assets. Singer's invested in Citgo, which is PDVSA, the state-run oil company in Venezuela. They own a downstream refining business and marketing business as well. It's been in forced sale proceedings for some time, and that might move forward in the months and years ahead. You know, the world doesn't have much of an appetite for more oil, and some oil companies like Chevron are not sure about investing more in Venezuela. But in order to profit from this, since President Trump says the US is controlling the oil supply in Venezuela, they have to push for more appetite for oil around the world.
>> The most important piece of information in the oil market is the price of oil. And yesterday, US oil prices were something like $58 per barrel. Now, US oil companies can make a profit at that price. That said, Venezuelan oil trades at a discount for a bunch of nuanced reasons. Um, but $58 a barrel is not sending a signal to companies in the US and elsewhere, hey, why don't you spend billions of dollars to tap into unproven, decrepit reserves and infrastructure in a country that's unstable? So, you saw there was an NBC interview last night that President Trump gave where he essentially suggested the US might actually subsidize some of these oil companies going back into Venezuela. The word he used, I believe, was reimbursement. Um, that seems like a very difficult political move to make. But that said, I think oil companies might need some sort of incentive, in addition to the political and legal stability they're looking out for, to make those big decisions. Uh, former Chevron executive Ali Moshir is raising $2 billion for Venezuelan oil projects, telling the Financial Times, quote, "I've had a dozen calls over the past 24 hours from potential investors. Interest in Venezuela has gone from zero to 99%." Has your reporting shown this?
>> There will always be speculators who are ready to pull the trigger on big bets in very unproven environments. I'd be curious to check in with that investor in a year or two years' time to see if he's actually raised that money and see if they're ready to actually pull the trigger on an investment decision, given whatever the political situation is in Venezuela.
>> And I'd be curious to know how the Trump family plans to profit. But which that takes us to your overall look at the Trump family. Um, your reporting on the Trump family's finances in the Wall Street Journal. Um, you recently revealed that ventures launched since Trump's re-election have generated at least $4 billion in proceeds and paper wealth for the Trump family. That figure based on company statements and security filings. In addition, you've reported how one of the family businesses, Trump Media and Technology, uh, recently announced a $6 billion merger with a firm aiming to build the world's first viable nuclear fusion plant to power AI projects and data centers. This merger, particularly interesting, given it was announced shortly after Trump signed an executive order um to bar states and local governments from enacting their own AI regulations. If you can start off, David, on this issue of the massive Trump wealth that has been um accumulated just in this first year of President Trump.
>> Right. The $4 billion figure that you mentioned, that's in proceeds and also paper wealth that have been generated strictly by businesses that have been launched since he's been elected. That's, it's potentially a conservative estimate. This is only what has been made public either through securities filings or federal disclosures made by the president or the first family. Um, these range from the traditional real estate, golf, hotels business, but increasingly veer into things like cryptocurrency, different types of merchandise. Um, you mentioned the fusion deal as well. And what we see is that, you know, Trump was in, in some cases, elected because he, he's a businessman. He can run the government like a business. The potential byproduct of that is if you have a president who doesn't divest from his assets as previous presidents have done, you have all of these different business interests in different areas in which the government regulates, which raises a lot of questions.
>> So talk about where the Trump investments are around the world.
>> They're, they're totally global. The hotels, the real estate, the golf courses, they span everywhere from the United States to Ireland to Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Middle East as well. Um, cryptocurrency is by nature a global, you know, type of industry, and that's where you see the real money-making being happening right now. Um, we, we made this conservative investment not taking into account some of the meme coins the president and his family have generated. It's very difficult to track how much money or proceeds those types of things generate. Um, but it's truly a global operation at this point. And it's worth saying that the White House and the Trump Organization, when we've corresponded with them, they say there is no conflict of interest. They've installed guardrails around all of this. But as our reporting shows, a lot of these assets lead back up into the Trump Revocable Trust, which is what the, which is a trust and the vehicle that is ultimately controlled by Donald Trump Jr. and it benefits Donald Trump.
>> The biggest crypto venture is World Liberty Financial. Explain who owns it, what it is, and the countries it's working with.
>> World Liberty Financial was co-founded by Trump and his sons, as well as Steve Witkoff and his sons. It is owned basically 40% by entities linked to the Trump family, and through a complex ownership structure, various entities lead that investment back up into the Trump Revocable Trust. Now, World Liberty Financial issues its own governance tokens as well as stable tokens, stablecoins rather, which are backed by US Treasury bonds. And through both of those different offerings, they can get both trading fees as well as interest payments by their Treasury holdings as well. As some of my colleagues reported, different investors in cryptocurrency around the world have either put money into these stablecoin offerings. Um, those span Middle East and Asian investors. Um, more specific when you talk about Middle East and South Asia.
>> What are the countries that are pouring billions into these Trump family businesses?
>> More, more specifically, the founder of, as my colleagues have reported, the founder of Binance, who was recently under federal investigation. Um, he made an investment. He bought some of the stablecoins that World Liberty Financial offers, and that business deal was helped along in some instances by different Middle Eastern players as well. So, these, really, this really spans different Gulf nations. Um, these countries are very big into crypto. They're investing in this area in the hopes of diversifying their economies away from energy as well. And because the Trumps have become such a large player and they have many business and political connections, um, it's also almost natural in some senses that they would work together. Uh, and it just so happens that Donald Trump's the president as well. And, uh, just so happens so you've got the sons of Donald Trump, you've got the sons of the so-called peace envoy Witkoff, where you have them all traveling together. And as the envoys leave, you've got the sons there. What do they gain by their parents either the president of the United States or as number one representative in dealing with different countries, um, by being there in their wake? Have you been able to trace that?
>> Uh, I mean, it certainly hasn't hurt their prospects. I mean, we've, we've spoken to people, bankers, investors, potential business partners in different industries. You know, they are attracted to the fact that the Trump family name carries a considerable amount of fame and power and has for some time. Um, as I said, the White House says there is no conflict of interest, but it raises a lot of questions over sort of like the indirect ways in which the sort of proximity to power may help along some of these deals and the valuations at which they're made.
>> Let's get into the AI data centers and what fuel them. Talk about the Trump company that will now deal with nuclear fusion and the possibility of nuclear fusion powering requires massive energy, these data centers. Um, and at the same time, President Trump issuing an executive order that would prevent states or local entities from regulating anything related to data centers.
>> Well, there's two things happening here. First and foremost, the Trump administration has been all-in on AI data centers. They want to boost this as a new American industry, foment investment from the major players in Silicon Valley and elsewhere. They want to reduce as many regulations as possible, both to build data centers and to build the energy infrastructure, mostly natural gas infrastructure, as well as nuclear, uh, but that that is needed to power those data centers. So that's what's happening on one part of the industry side of things. At the same time, Trump Media, which is originally founded, as you know, as sort of a holding company for the Truth Social social media platform, has really sort of traveled through the wilderness in terms of finding an actual business to become over the last several years or so. They were founded in 2021 when Donald Trump was very much in the outs with corporate America and Wall Street. And this business deal with TIE Technologies, which is quite an established player in the nascent nuclear fusion field, it kind of represents full circle happening for that Trump family business empire. This is an established firm. It's backed by Goldman Sachs and Chevron, coincidentally. Uh, the Charles Schwab family is involved. These are very mainstream financial people in the United States. So you really see the Trumps increasingly integrating their business empire within, you know, the real, the quote-unquote real economy in the US as well as mainstream finance.
>> But this is very serious for people to understand. AI data centers require massive amounts of energy, sometimes equivalent to what you would power a whole small city. And if you're talking about nuclear fusion, uh, some have said that this energy source is decades away from actually um manifesting itself. But if he's also in charge of the regulation, or more importantly, the deregulation of it, who's going to be in control of this?
>> The company claims that it can reach operations by 2031, which would be light speed. Um, as per what you said previously, this is commercially unproven technology. Um, there is capital behind this company now to make this all happen. But that said, it's kind of a moonshot. Um, which follows sort of a well-worn path. If you sort of step back and look at the Trump interests, broadly speaking, they play in very speculative, highly risky corners of financial markets. And this is definitely one of those areas.
>> And the idea that the executive order says you cannot um regulate AI data centers. I mean, a lot of the activism around the country now is around communities deeply concerned about these energy centers. Um, President Trump is saying this would now be against the law.
>> Right. Those community organizations in different places around the country, which I've visited, they are anathema to this idea of building out data centers as quickly as possible. You add in the element of the administration being very antagonistic toward renewable energy, things like solar and wind power. Solar in particular is very proven, uh, and quite cheap in some circumstances. And instead being all-in on fossil fuels, which are obviously more polluting in many circumstances, as well as this more unproven technology of nuclear, which the US has a very checkered history with.
We have to leave it there, but we're going to do part two after the show. David Uberti of the Wall Street Journal. I'm Amy Goodman. Thanks for watching Democracy Now on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel and turn on notifications to make sure you never miss a video. And for more of our audience-supported journalism, go to democracynow.org, or where you can download our news app, sign up for our newsletter, subscribe to the daily podcast, and so much