Transcription
All right, guys. We are very fortunate to be joined today by Professor Saxs of Columbia University, who is an economist and world-renowned thinker and best-selling author. Um, scarcely needs an introduction. Many things to speak with you about today, sir. Thank you for joining us.
>> Great to be with you. Thank you.
>> Yeah, of course. So, let me start with this um pretty wild letter that the president of the United States apparently sent to the prime minister of Norway. So, here we go. It says, um, "Dear Jonas, considering your country decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped eight wars plus, I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of peace, although it will always be predominant, but can now think about what is good and proper for the United States of America. Denmark cannot protect that land being Greenland from Russia or China. And why do they have a right of ownership anyway? There are no written documents. It's only that a boat landed there hundreds of years ago. But we had boats landing there also. I've done more for NATO than any other person since its founding. And now NATO should do something for the United States. The world is not secure unless we have complete and total control of Greenland. Thank you, President DJT."
Uh, what do you make of this extraordinary >> Thank you for your attention to this matter.
>> Yes, exactly. Which um was not only sent to, you know, Prime Minister of Norway, but was also sent to apparently a number of European ambassadors.
Well, uh I I think it's terrifying because either he's insane or he's not insane. Uh we don't know which. But either way, uh it's terrifying. Uh if this is serious and this is how a president speaks, we have lost our country, our democracy, our system, and our safety. uh if he is uh an old man uh with the megalomaniacal tendencies already uh and he's over the edge which I think is perfectly possible though I'm not a psychologist uh this is also something that we're seeing somebody who is decompensating in front of our eyes we had a president last time uh who collapsed on the job maybe it's happening again Again, I have to say this is so strange, uh, wild, nuts, uh, that it's not something that grown-ups in normal behavior would do under any circumstances, uh, much less someone who holds this office. uh if this is taken as clever or cute or normal, I think people should reexamine their thoughts about this. So I I find it frankly astounding.
>> So zooming out uh professor uh there is a big you know now push by the United States kind of centering its relationship here with the European powers. Crystal, if we could put up the uh Trump Truth Social up about sanction or sorry uh tariffs uh that are being put into place here. Uh President Trump saying we have subsidized all countries of the European Union etc. I will you know stick to the important part is that there will be tariffs increased to some 10% on Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, the UK, Netherlands and Finland. And the tariff will be increased to 25% beginning on June 1st. It's time for Denmark uh to give back Greenland.
So when we're talking here a little bit about the relationship with the European powers by the United States and in the broader context, Greenland I think is important. I don't think any of this would be happening without the sugar high that the administration is currently on after Venezuela and in particular, you know, after Midnight Hammer. those seem to have really convinced the president uh and his team the United States can truly be you know the world's superpower and can act like this way in any sphere of the world in its demands. Uh what do you think the effects of this type of strategy and of belief system in the White House could wreak in terms of the international situation?
Again, uh if uh this gang continues to pursue this course, this is not the will of the American people. This is not the will of Congress. This reflects uh no uh constitutional process whatsoever. This is gangsterism. Um and gangsterism generally ends in shootouts. Uh so I think that this is a a perilous and reckless course and um Europe sadly became essentially a vassal of the United States over the past 30 years. Uh in any event, so it barely can utter a word in its own defense. They're scared of their shadow. uh they have been um rather pathetic. I've spoken to many European leaders over uh many years warning them about the direction of the United States. Uh it's not only Trump. Trump is doing it in a crazy way. But this uh also reflects a kind of thuggery that the United States has been on for a long time. And um now it seems completely unhinged and uh of course we're going to see whether uh any European power or country can actually express an honest view. Uh but they're getting close at least. Uh the German government has said that Greenland is a very uh bright red line. Uh the French uh government at many different levels, foreign minister and president have uh expressed uh uh the fact that this will not be tolerated. Britain, which is of course I think the most delusional and subservient country and that's been true for many many decades was able to utter a sentence at least that this is not acceptable by British standards. That's quite remarkable.
We should understand by the way that um more important things are happening in the world uh than this in many ways. A couple of days ago, the prime minister of Canada was in Beijing uh and Canada and China signed a strategic partnership. Very interesting. Uh because uh for Canada to do that reflects the fact that they understand that the United States has gone looney. uh has has really uh completely left uh any kind of normalcy. I'm very happy that they have normal relations with China, but to declare it a strategic partnership, which I perfectly understand and I commend the premier of uh Canada for doing it um shows what Trump is actually doing. The idea that they're on a sugar high because they're succeeding one thing after another, I think is fundamentally wrong. It's of course what's pumped up hour to hour on True Social. But I think nothing has been accomplished except to put the world on notice that the United States is out of control from any legal uh restrictions and any normal restrictions. Uh, of course I think this puts much of the world on high alert. Um, we are in a nuclear world. The United States is not alone in power. Uh, it is not invulnerable. It actually rarely gets its way. Uh, the United States does not run Venezuela, by the way. They kidnapped a president. They killed some people. They don't run anything. They've commandeered a few ships, but nothing is settled uh on that score. Uh there is no way that the United States is going to own Greenland. Uh it's not going to happen, although the United States may claim it. Uh so it could absolutely one day claim that Greenland is uh uh the United States, and I think that that's actually likely by Trump. But that will not make Greenland part of the United States. It will make the United States an invader of Europe. That will dramatically change the scene. Uh so I don't really feel that this is a a uh in in any way a demonstration of the United States being a superpower. I view it as a delusional uh unchecked period. And I can't really say myself whether it is a a mental instability of a president or gangsterism uh that is uh premeditated and uh uh but uh thuggishness just on its own. It is not strategic. It does not increase America's wealth or safety or security or the economy or anything else. There's nothing that's happening right now that sticks in a meaningful way for the benefit of MAGA or the benefit of the American people or the security of the American people or anything else. It's a lot of uh it it's it's a lot of uh performance. Uh it's it's a lot of uh uh rather insane boasting and threatening uh and bombing, but nothing that's happened in my view uh has any consequential benefit of any sort for the American people. uh even uh probably his friends that he's enriching on each of these things uh on each of these actions probably that doesn't last either. Uh this is just to my mind a massive and very dangerous instability. The fact that nobody in Washington in power in any office, I mean elected office, can find the words to express how bizarre and dangerous and completely unacceptable this is is a sign of how profoundly degraded our constitutional system is. Um, so I think that it is a warning to all of us. He's invading Minnesota. the same way he's invading Venezuela and he's in the same way that he's threatening to invade Greenland, it's completely unhinged and it's very dangerous.
>> Let me go ahead and put up um this Financial Times tear sheet about the the European response here. So, it says the EU is readying some 93 billion euro tariffs and retaliation. You've got um Davos happening this week, the World Economic Forum. Um lots of conversations happening between European leaders. They're supposed to be speaking with Trump as well. I mean, what would you what can they do? What would you advise them to do? Do you think that they have woken up and realize that they need to take a more assertive posture and assert some sort of sovereignty here? Because clearly the strategy of appeasement has failed.
>> Yes. Uh that's what I've been saying to them for many years uh and especially during the past year. But uh they're very sad, semipathetic, uh scared of their shadow. Um and I don't know whether they still remember uh how to be national leaders, sovereign countries or to act together. They're showing a little bit of sign of this. Uh the tariff retaliation and all the rest is one thing. What they should be doing is saying unequivocally, we're not negotiating. We're not discussing. I won't use the word that words that I would use uh and that I think that they ought to use in their private discussions, but basically they ought to say this is nuts. It's not going down. We're not even talking about it. So stop. That's the most basic point. They ought to get together with Russia and China and India and other parts of the world and the BRICS to say we cannot go day-to-day with this kind of madness and treat it as normal because basically uh every country in the world is threatened by a completely lawless United States and they are they've expressed. They've explained, Mr. Miller has explained that there are no laws. Donald Trump has explained that there are no laws. We're in the hands of a small number of people in a system that seems to have lost its voice and is unable to comprehend what's happening. I should add that, you know, as we're watching this, they were trying last week to overthrow the government of Iran. This was clearly a CIA operation from beginning to end with Mossad. That's also a very lawless, reckless, dangerous action. And we are still close to a generalized war in the Middle East, which could well turn nuclear. That's not gone away either. So either we as a country somehow regain some constitutional order or I think we are all imperiled.
Professor, I do want to ask you because you were talking there about the Europeans and about our system. I think one of the problems that I see is for example the Europeans say that the sovereignty of Greenland is just total and complete and at the very same time uh the German uh chancellor called the Iranian government illegitimate and it's time to fall as of you know I think a week ago uh for example all of them did not recognize Maduro as the president of Venezuela and they effectively supported the kidnapping by the United States and the current operations. If anything, their only qualm is that we didn't put boots on the ground and then force, you know, some sort of quote democratic transition. Um, you know, at the very same time, uh, this President Zelensky of Ukraine, whose country is literally being invaded, is supportive of regime change, uh, in Iran. And even here in the US, while many congressmen and others may be upset, let's say, over Greenland, they fundamentally agree with this idea. And hence why they didn't have any war powers resolutions or anything else on Venezuela, on Iran. I mean, if anything, they were more hawkish than even the Trump administration was on Iran. Uh, and so it seems as if that fundamental hypocrisy in their stance and lack, not even just of principles, but they don't believe in law whenever it benefits, let's say, an agenda uh that goes to them seems to have opened the space through which something like this can happen because if they were to, let's say, enforce something on Greenland, it would fundamentally call into question their relations with multiple other states across the world and their very own foreign policy.
Your points are absolutely right and extremely important. I would put it this way and I think it's also really important to understand. The United States foreign policy has been lawless for many decades. Uh our presidents and our rhetoric have generally hidden that uh to a minor extent at least. But the kinds of thuggery that Trump is displaying is part of American foreign policy. For a long time, we invaded Iraq not on wrong premises, but on completely false premises. We overthrew the government of Syria in a CIA operation that went on for 14 years. We bombed Libya to uh uh oblivion and created what has now been 15 years of civil war in that country. We overthrew helped to overthrow a government in Ukraine in February 2014 that put us on the path of war. You won't find almost any of this in the New York Times or the Washington Post. God forbid that's the CIA outlet or the Wall Street Journal which just chortles on who's going to make money on what particular venture. The lawlessness has been there for a long time. It's coming unhinged though with Trump in the last few weeks because now everything is open game and that's why I say that there may be something psychological or something constitutional or something gangsterism in this but the pace of the lawlessness and the brazenness of it uh and the boasting of the absence of any restraints is something new compared even to the lawlessness before. Now the Europeans used to object once in a while to this. Uh there used to be European leaders who objected to the Iraq war for example. They said it was uh not correct. It was dangerous. Uh I knew those leaders. We don't have them in Europe for the last 15 years. It's an interesting uh question why uh I think uh they are afraid of the United States and afraid of Russia and very weak internally and basically uh they have this political class has been raised by the the CIA and the American deep state and all of the organizations uh the Atlantic Council and the German Marshall Fund and all of these think tanks and Davos and everybody else. you better play the American game if you want to have political success. So, they have lost their voice entirely. And it's shocking for me because I rather like Europe and always hoped that Europe would be a stabilizing influence on an extraordinarily violent US foreign policy. They dropped that. By the way, the Ukraine war was a complete provocation by the United States. And that's why the New York Times, which is our phony newspaper, reported that it was unprovoked a thousand times precisely because it was provoked by the United States by overthrowing a government in order for NATO to enlarge. Okay. Now, having said all of that, the Europeans would not tell the truth in public about this at all. I speak to the leaders. Some of them even know it in private. Some do not know it. But the ones that know it in private won't say it in public. So, we've had a situation where you're completely right. Uh Europe went along with every abuse. And let's remember, we have just been complicit in a genocidal operation in Gaza. So, this isn't theoretical about what's going to happen to Greenland. We had a genocide in Gaza before our eyes in the last year which the United States funded, armed, supported with military intelligence and gave full diplomatic backing to. That's by the way both Biden and uh Trump. So we're in and the Europeans couldn't utter a word. Uh, interestingly, I was uh at the UN Security Council uh after uh the Israelis bombed uh Iran. So around the table, all the Europeans said they made warnings to Iran. You better show restraint. Not one of them challenged Israel for having just bombed Iran. I actually ironically had a little colloquy with the ambassador to Denmark because I went up to her uh after her rather shocking words and said that how much I like Denmark and in a publication that I co-edit every year, the World Happiness Report, Denmark's always at the top, the happiest country in the world. And she was very happy. Uh, she smiled at me and then I said, "But wouldn't it be nice if you mentioned not Iran's restraint, but that Israel just bombed Iran?" She turned around and walked out uh without a word. That's the level of uh the reality. Same thing happened with the kidnapping of Maduro. All they could get out of their mouth was, "Well, he's a terrible person or he's an illegitimate president." No one could say a word about the United States brazenly violating the UN Charter and its implications. So, you're completely right. I don't want to attack the Europeans when they're being attacked, but I do want to say that uh consistency that actually we should follow some principles is what keeps us all alive, we hope. And uh if Europe doesn't utter a word when the United States makes every abuse, every regime change, uh every covert operation, every bombing, uh every complicity in Israel's crimes, then they turn around and are surprised about Denmark. It's it's a little sad. By the way, if I don't know if we have time, I would would like to just find you a statement. uh if I can find it that I read that I said to uh let me see if I can uh find it quickly. I'm sorry to take the time but
>> No problem. Please go ahead.
>> I I spoke to the European Parliament a year ago >> and I told them this is going to happen and they thought what what's the matter with you Mr. Sachs? So I want to read you what I said. This is verbatim cuz it it shows you could see I said to the parliamentarians. So I'm not saying that we're all at the new age of peace, but we are in a very different kind of politics right now. A return to great power politics. Europe needs its own foreign policy and not just a foreign policy of Russophobia. Europe needs a foreign policy that is realistic, understands Russia's situation, understands Europe's situation, understands what America is and what it stands for, and that tries to avoid Europe being invaded by the United States. It's certainly not impossible that Trump's America will land troops in Greenland. I'm not joking, and I don't think Trump is joking. Europe needs a foreign policy, a real one. Europe needs something different from yes, we'll bargain with Mr. Trump and meet him halfway. Do you know what that will be like? Give me a call afterwards. That's what I told them. Okay. When I told them this, they were not impressed. Oh, Mr. Sachs, you're exaggerating and America's not so bad and blah blah blah. They don't understand. But most of the world doesn't understand. And most of my neighbors on the upper west side of New York do not understand because they read the New York Times. I'm sorry to say. I'm going to pick on it one more time because the violence, the regime change, the brutality of American foreign policy is not exposed and not discussed in polite company. Except now Trump to his bizarre credit, I can't use that word in a full sentence with him, but he's at least saying out loud the brazen truth that there is no law and no constraint for the US. Incidentally, I think it was Yes, it I think it's the Washington Post today that ran a story that said how terrible Putin is. Everyone sees he's a liar because he doesn't come to the defense of this country and that country and this country. Instead of saying how terrible it is our president of the United States is bombing and attacking and so forth, the Washington Post, which is the mouthpiece of the intelligence agencies, twists it so that it's Putin that's the villain because he doesn't respond to Trump's thuggery. So Putin's a liar because he doesn't stand up to Trump's thuggery rather than an article that Trump is a thug and maybe it's uh it's a dangerous thing for the world that the United States is led by a gangster group. So that's where we are.
>> I I want to um talk to you a little bit about this >> being in temperate. >> No, you're fine. >> Making logical sense to me. >> Everybody wants to hear you speak. >> No, no, I'm sorry. It's just uh it gets worse and worse, more brazen, more shocking, and um it's Trump's style is to normalize this and and that is absolutely uh grotesque. Sorry.
>> Um you I I wanted to talk to you too um you know, in the context of all of this about this Board of Peace proposal from Trump. Have you uh have you dug into the details here? Here's some of the latest reporting from >> from Bloomberg. Uh Trump wants nations to pay $1 billion to stay on peace board. I'll just read you a little bit of this. The Trump administration is asking countries that want a permanent spot on his new board of peace to contribute at least $1 billion according to a draft charter for the proposed group seen by Bloomberg. Trump himself would serve as its inaugural chairman, would decide on who is invited to be members. Decisions would be taken by a majority with each member state present getting one vote, but all would be subject to the chairman's approval. Um, each member state shall serve a term of no more than three years. The three-year membership term shall not apply to member states that contribute more than USD $1 billion in cash funds to the Board of Peace. Um, we also have news that, you know, of a variety of countries that have been invited, apparently Putin himself has been invited onto the board of peace. This was all originally conceived, you know, in the context of this quote unquote peace plan in Gaza, but now apparently the board of peace is being positioned as sort of a Trump alternative to the UN. How do you view this? What is he up to here?
>> If George Orwell had written it, you would think it uh mildly funny uh clever. Uh you might uh view this in a Marvel comic strip uh as uh somebody aiming to run the world. Um I view this as uh sad and pathetic. I said a year ago to many leaders when uh Trump's so-called peace plan for Gaza was put forward that this was a travesty and a trap and after a genocide. Uh this is not how things should proceed. Uh things should proceed with a state of Palestine and Palestinians in charge of reconstruction. God forbid Israel should have some responsibility to rebuild after they've killed probably hundreds of thousands and destroyed uh this area. But uh actually Trump prevailed on one leader after another because he threatened them, he bribed them. He told them you can't have data centers unless you do this. You can't have this missile system unless you do this. He um he he twisted everything out of shape and got that plan approved. Now he's doing doing it again. Uh this is shambolic. Uh he's got his hedge fund friends. He's got uh you can't even joke about putting Tony Blair on this since the British are the most responsible for having screwed up the Middle East for the last century of anybody. So why don't we put Tony Blair back in charge of Gaza? He can maybe rewrite the Balfour Declaration. Uh the whole thing is so absurd.
>> You don't even know where to start. But again, I have to admit, hardly anyone says boo about anything right now.
>> Each one is scared of putting a putting a word out right now.
>> I don't think any of this lasts, but uh on the other hand, uh uh this kind of gangsterism plays for a little while. It makes us all at risk.
>> One of the things that I see in this Board of Peace, Professor, I'm curious what you do as well, is it's almost like a recreation of the UN Security Council here, especially with Russia, um, and a quasi privatized version with Trump as some sort of emeritus chair.
>> It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Look, >> okay, >> around the world there are actually grown-ups. And when you talk to them, they know that this is looney. This is insane stuff. Nobody is joining Trump's board to replace the UN Security Council. Many people think the UN Security Council is dead, killed by the United States, but nobody, okay, I can think of, yes, a few hedge fund guys, uh, maybe a son-in-law and a few others who will join the board thinking that it's something real. Nobody believes that this is an alternative to the UN except some crazy media story uh in uh some mainstream uh medium pumped up by talking to someone in the White House.
>> Mhm.
>> And the fact of the matter is the United States is not all powerful. It can't run Venezuela. It can't overthrow the world. It can't own Greenland. It tried very hard. It could not in a proxy war with Russia defeat Russia in Ukraine. That was a war between the United States and Russia. People should understand that. Uh fought with the Ukrainians killed in vast numbers. That was the US strategy. But uh didn't work. uh the US has not had any success anywhere in the Middle East in actually achieving stability or long-term goals. It has created chaos in Libya, in Somalia, in uh Sudan, uh in Lebanon, in Syria, in uh Iraq, in uh Yemen, and uh it's uh tried to overthrow the government of uh Iran last week, and my view is it's not over yet. Maybe they'll be bombing in the next few days. This is an ongoing story. That's not peace. That's not security. That is not uh enrichment. Except maybe, and I admit uh there are some uh uh Silicon Valley gazillionaires that do make a lot of money off of these wars. Uh and maybe this is how Peter Thiel likes it. Uh but for the American people, this is not leading to anything real over the longer term and it's not a great show. There have been a spade of articles in the last few days that America is back as the world's sole superpower. This is absurd. Yes, you can uh kidnap a president and you can bully and you can even commit a genocide. You can announce the peace board. That doesn't give you ownership of the world. Uh the fact of the matter is I have just been uh traveling throughout Asia. Real investment, real business, real technological advance is taking place not uh in the way the United States would like it to happen uh or uh we pretend uh but actually is happening outside of the United States and not in the US control or the US orbit. Uh so I find the gap between the uh brazenness, the rhetoric and so forth and the underlying uh instability and unreality wider and wider. Uh and I think it is absolutely important for us to understand and to to keep remembering Trump is sending troops into American cities. And of course that's terrifying. But is that a show of strength or is that a show of um utter contempt for American society, for the safety of the American people, for the Constitution, for law? It's it's the latter. Does it prove that he's a great man, a strong man? No, it doesn't prove that. It proves that um there is a degree of recklessness that we've not seen in our country in uh at least since the Civil War I would say and
>> yeah something I'm
>> it's very serious
>> something I'm struck by in your comments there is and and I've noted this is uh we are amazed at our power as you said to kidnap Maduro with the Delta Force raid uh to take out some Iranian nuclear facilities uh with you know a high precision strike. Um but we seem to be at the same time we seem completely and totally unable to recognize the constraints that surround us. So for example, one of the things that apparently held up a potential strike on Iran is a carrier strike group had to make its way from the South China Sea is the idea that we you know because a significant number of naval assets are also in the Caribbean. And it also it almost seems to me like the grasping of a lot of the straws here seem to be indicative actually of declining power and ability considering what has happened now over the last 5 years.
>> Absolutely. And if you look at the situation in Iran, >> the bombing last summer did nothing but performative. It did not set back Iran's nuclear program two years. It didn't set it back at all necessarily. 400 kg of 60% enriched uranium are just out of sight. Uh the amount of centrifuging needed to turn those into nuclear uh weapons if they want that is uh actually quite tiny at this point. Nothing was solved in terms of security except breaking any kind of oversight and a chance to have the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, have a continued line of sight into what was happening. At the same time, Iran demonstrated hypersonic missiles that pierced uh Israel's Iron Dome. They did not target uh the uh absolute uh most sensitive uh targets in Israel. Uh they targeted some military sites and uh but actually they showed that they can pierce the Iron Dome. It's not so iron and Trump's golden dome isn't going to be so golden after trillions of dollars spent on it either. So the idea that uh we have proved this overwhelming strength is absolutely false. And as you say, uh, they did not have the means, even if they had wanted to act last week to, and they may want to act next week, by the way, when this carrier strike group comes closer. So, I do not put it past uh events at all uh to see that we're in a war next week. But it's not going to be so simple. And the United States is not the only nuclear superpower, nor is Israel. And if there is a war, it's right into the cauldron of nuclear weapons all over the place. Uh it it would be the most dangerous uh kind of war one can imagine in all of modern times. This is not the same uh even as the recklessness of the Iraq war.
>> yeah. So the idea that this is somehow American strength is an illusion or a delusion. Uh it is an unhinged government. Uh and again is it unhinged by literal mental instability or is it unhinged uh because of gangsterism or some combination or maybe the the difference is too narrow to matter. But when a president uh writes to the prime minister of Norway as you opened uh to say you didn't give me the Nobel Peace Prize now I don't have to think about peace. This is not under any definition the kind of situation that any American should want for our own safety and security, much less that the world should want by any standard on any interpretation. This is deeply, profoundly disturbing and unnerving.
>> Professor, my um final question for you is, you know, I'm American. And I can't help but uh in spite of some of my best attempts feeling a bit of American nationalism. And this all seems incredibly terrible for for our country, for the people of our country. But I do wonder if the brazenness of it is sort of a um wakeup call for the rest of the world. You know, you pointed out the uh new alliance between Canada and China. You see Europeans, you know, showing some theoretical signs of potentially thinking about a bit of a backbone. Obviously there have been efforts with um with BRICS etc. So I is it possible that out of this brazen undeniable gangsterism that you emerge actually with a um a better order if we're looking at the at the entire globe.
>> Yes. Uh in fact uh there are diplomatic conversations happening all over the world uh within regions and across regions saying we need to get our act together. This is very dangerous. Um and uh the BRICS is uh one part of that. That's half the world uh population uh with the the uh 10 countries right now uh about uh almost half the world's uh GDP um and they are absolutely aware of uh what the implications of all of this are but I think everywhere in the world uh Trump is uniting the rest of the world uh in the opposite of what he intends you uh India uh was uh courted supposedly. I always thought it was absurd and I told the Indians that Indian leaders many times courted to be on our side against China join what's called the Quad which is an informal group of the United States, India, Japan and Australia that supposedly are the major powers to surround China and to keep China contained. And I said to the Indians uh Indian leadership many times this is a bad idea. Don't be used by the United States. They many times many uh said to me you know we have a good inside track. We have good relations and so forth. During the past year all of that has broken uh predictably in my view. I have to say I told them so very very explicitly. And what did we see in Shanghai at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization? We saw Prime Minister Modi, President Xi of China, and President Putin of Russia uh in close embrace. Of course, they're in a close embrace. They have a United States that is completely erratic. Doesn't have a consistency hour to hour, much less day to day, week to week or month to month. Every day is a new threat. Every day is a new slur. Every day is a new tariff. Uh every day is a new executive decree. Of course, these are serious countries that are actually not interested in playing some game of Donald Trump's mind, but actually interested in stability, their nuclear powers. They don't want a nuclear war. They don't want to be uh brazenly threatened or pushed around by the United States. So, the answer is yes. Trump is raising in everybody's mind, how do we make a multi-polar world precisely because we don't even have a stable power in the case of the United States, one that anyone can rely on for any moment because it's whimsical. it is uh without uh any kind of treaty constraint, external constraint or respect for anybody else. So the answer is emphatically yes. It's very hard to reshape the thinking. Uh Europe has been so wrong visa v Russia so mis so misunderstanding of what really happened uh to uh create the Ukraine war which is a US created war basically outlined by Zbigniew Brzezinski back in the 1990s that we're going to take NATO and bring Ukraine into NATO and we're going to make Russia a third rate power. Well, the United Europe played along so much that now that they're threatened imminently with basically an invasion by the United States in Greenland, they don't know how to react because they've been so uh much under uh the US um so so much influenced I should say by the US approach and by the fear of Russia. But even they, as we talked about, are rethinking everything right now. Maybe they'll even realize, and actually I have to say, Chancellor Merz said it a few days ago, that maybe he needs to call President Putin. That shows that even the Europeans are recalibrating right now under this threat. And I can tell you that's happening all over the world because I'm hearing those conversations. I'm being asked about these issues. This is happening all over the world.
>> Well, Professor Sachs, we really, really appreciate you making some time for us. I know it's late at night where you are. So, thank you so much for your insights at this pivotal moment.
>> Great to be with you. Always appreciate your Byebye.
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