Transcription
[Music] [Music] But I was always The the confidence that I have comes from a lifetime of experience with China. China's not a threat. Go visit China. Go visit Western China. Go visit central China. Go to Shenzhen. Go to Shanghai. Go to Shandong. You'll see with your own eyes.
[Music] Yeah, that's that's fascinating because another excellent [Music] Professor Sax. So, do you mind we just start working there and we'll go to the interview room. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Do you mind if we put it in your pocket? I was there and to be honest, it feels like a professor giving a lecture. It's like back to the classroom at university. Seriously, because you were really caring the uh the feelings of each and every of your viewers and audiences. You were looking around and nodding to everyone. It's like asking or a feedback from your student. Did you understand? Seriously, I was writing taking notes and like when I'm speaking to be understood. So, I want to make sure people understand at least what I'm uh what I'm trying to say. I can tell. I can tell. And especially when you say something is um interesting and we give you feedback. I think that is really interesting and meaningful interaction. Right.
But I was always very curious that because these questions, questions on China, you know, Russia, Ukraine conflict, all those questions, you've answered them many times, but how come you're still so passionate in answering them each and every time from because the the world remains in a very fragile and dangerous place. And so uh we need public understanding and unfortunately the official government uh statements uh do not comport with the the facts. Uh and uh our government is capable of saying things completely contradictory to the facts. And so I think that it is uh necessary to keep pointing out uh the the real situation. Unfortunately, saying it once isn't quite enough to to make the point. Sometimes maybe a thousand or 100 times is not enough. Exactly. Well, one has to keep saying it. Be careful. Yes.
I want to show you. So, this is sculpture. Do you have an idea what is it? No. About the theme. It's about an initiative that you have been advocating very strongly. The belt and the road. Oh, that's the belt and road. Wonderful. Yes. I think it originates from the uh inspiration. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, congratulations. That's wonderful. Why? Because just now at the press conference, you said uh you have explained this initiative to many different governments around the world. Why? Why? What prompted you to do that? The Belton Road initiative is really a wonderful initiative and a very special one. Of course, uh, as President Xi made clear when he first unveiled it, it harks back to the Silk Roads 2,000 years of East West trade. Now, if you are an economist like I am, you believe that trade is mutually beneficial. Uh, that it brings cultures together, it brings wonderful uh goods from one part of the world to the benefit of other parts of the world. And so it's truly the the win-win mechanism for uh how our societies function. So I'm a huge fan of that interconnection. I believe it's hugely beneficial and here China has made a a major commitment to making these interconnections. I hoped at the beginning that uh the US and Europe would say wonderful we partner together. That hasn't happened yet. uh in fact the United States government goes around the world telling countries you get out of the belt and road initiative. So this is the opposite of what should be done with Europe. I think that Europe should be partnering with China. Uh Europe has the idea of this openness and and connection. They call it the the global gateway. And how wonderful if the global gateway and the Belgian road really were working together. I always say the global gateway should invest from Europe eastward. The uh Belgian road from China westward. They could meet in Samarand and reestablish the 21st century Silk Road. Neil Silk Road.
Maybe we can go a little bit to the riverside just to take a look. This is only the second visiting as you see. I came in 1994. for the first time. We go to Beijing many times a year, but uh but you can see this is Yeah, this is absolutely beautiful. Rust came. Yeah, it's it's it's absolutely wonderful. It's a good picture of when we came in 1994, it was just being built and we arrived at um around 11 at night and drove a long way to the hotel and on both sides of the road, workers were working throughout the whole night to put up all of the hotels in the building. So it was very impressive then. Yeah. And now it's a completely different picture. Exactly. Yes. So we just got in and go to the interview room. Great. Wonderful.
Professor Sax, welcome to the program. Thank you so much. For so many years you've been a very strong supporter and advocate of China's development and growth, praising the country's opening up and reform its uh technological advancement as well as u all those um resilience in economic growth. So where does this optimism and very strong confidence stand from? I've watched China's development with my own eyes for 44 years now because I first came to China in 1981. I've been coming back regularly since then. I've studied the Chinese economy for uh these four decades. I have many colleagues, many students, uh many friends, many work projects in China for more than 40 years. So the the confidence that I have comes from a lifetime of experience with China, watching China's development, being involved in uh analytical ways in China's western development, watching China's technological development, visiting small companies like Huawei, which became very big giants for the world, and so forth. So I've seen this with my own eyes. China has even outperformed those expectations. But um my optimism is based on grounded experience and analysis.
Well, the technological advancement which you have referred to I mean China's technological advancement you have caught them as a true wing-wing events. But this breakthroughs are also making some countries nervous and uh they're even trying to contain um you know China's development from uh tariffs from um technical u ban as well as investment restrictions. How do you think of this containment measures and do you think it will really hinder China's development? When China makes technological advances in a competitive world, I can understand it might make some in America nervous, but it should make them run faster, be more clever, invest more money in R&D, uh make better strategies. That kind of competition, a race, who can do better faster, that's fine. That's that's peaceful. Uh and it's mutually beneficial because everybody benefits from the advances that come. Containment is a completely different idea. Containment is uh oh, they're doing well. We have to stop them from doing well. This is obnoxious, destructive, illegal according to international principles and it doesn't work. So that's it's got all of the bad features that it's completely ineffective policy. The United States is not going to contain China. This is ridiculous. China is a bigger economy. It's it's the main trading partner for probably maybe 150 countries around the world at this stage. It's at the technological forefront in many different areas. It's got a wonderful innovation ecosystem. It's got hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates every year. uh you look at uh at each year's uh new uh scientific journal articles which nature publishes a rankings. China's right at the forefront of this. I go to the great universities of China and see how astounding the progress. So all of this is to say that that um the US approach should be support innovation in certain areas partner with China because if the US and China partnered on relieving global hunger or addressing the climate crisis my god the benefits for the whole world would be phenomenal in some places compete like scientists do who can get there first who but that's fine too but contain that is a destructive process And that's what we have to get out of the mindset and out of the policy.
Fore. you made a speech at the European Parliament which were depicted by some European media as um explosive because some of the points that you made there seemed to be unconventional compared with uh some other uh or the mainstream voices the so-called mainstream voices of Europe for example during the speech you stated China is not uh an enemy China is just a success story and that is why it is viewed by United States as an enemy so professor why do you think it is important China to be viewed as a success story rather than an adversary. What happened in the United States is quite clear. Uh when the Soviet Union ended in December 1991, the US looked around and by US I mean the leaders. This is the politicians, not the general public. But the politicians looked around and said, "Oh, we run the world now. We're the last ones. No Soviet Union, China, that's poor rice growing villages. They they didn't even imagine anything about China's development. They've looked at the rest of the world. It's us and they took the mindset now we run the world. And in the 1990s, they used many expressions. The most uh famous became what our then secretary of state Maline Albbright said, "We are the indispensable country." Well, a little arrogant actually. You know, everybody's indispensable. Why just 4% of the world population is the indispensable country? This went to America's head. American leaders took it for granted. They could pretty much do what they want. They could decide to expand their militaries if they wanted to. They could overthrow governments if they wanted to. They could go to war, for example, in Iraq if they wanted to. Other countries were saying that's not a good idea that that don't do that. But the United States wasn't listening. Uh when in 2003, for example, the US said we need to attack Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction, the rest of the world, including China and of course Russia and Germany at the time said, "But wait a minute. Um we don't find weapons of mass destruction. We don't even know. let's continue the inspections. And the United States said, "No, we do what we want." And they went to war. Of course, it was on false pretenses, not just wrong pretenses. We now know it was filled with lies, but they felt the ability to go to war on the basis of lies and that they would make it up in the narrative. That is the mindset that got the US into so much trouble. Now, China, where does China fit into this? Well, as the US was boasting about its world leadership and being indispensable, China just kept growing. China's not a threat. Talk to China, come to China, work with China, negotiate with China, have diplomacy, and then the threat isn't there. Then the possibility of mutual benefit is there.
And also since taking office, the Trump administration has imposed tariffs on countries including China, the European Union, Mexico, Canada, etc. And you have said that those policy uh are bound to fail. Why? So protectionism doesn't work to spur innovation and advance. Protectionism makes companies protected behind artificial barriers, but it typically makes them a little bit lazy. Uh they compete in their home market, but then they can't really compete uh in the international markets. So if the US and Europe put on protectionist barriers say against electric vehicles which is what they want to do. Yes, the US will have an electric vehicle industry but who's going to sell electric vehicles all over the world? It's not going to be highcost American companies. It's going to be China. And um as we know, China US relations is one of the most important balor relations worldwide. Given the ongoing frictions between the two nations, what might be essential to navigate this uh complexities between our two nations? The hardest part right now is that uh President Trump and the Trump administration is very unstable in its policies. We have a policy in the morning, a different policy in the afternoon, and a third policy at night. China operates in a completely different way. China has a a long-term plan, fiveyear plan, even four, yes, even long term. And it's very systematic and it's a a a very complex uh big operating system. So, one side's improvising, the other side is on a long-term path. I'm hoping the United States can uh actually turn to longer term thinking and to diplomacy and negotiation with China rather than this unilateralism and this improvisation. I'm not too optimistic but that's what we should have.
Professor, you've also maybe noticed that for so many years on the global arena there are a lot of uh false narratives about China, its approach towards governance and development. For instance, um the economic performance when China grew at a rate of double digit rate, their critical voice is saying it is not sustainable. And now China's economy is stabilizing as a rate of uh around 5% their voice is saying it's uh weakening. Why do you think there this kind of uh consistent narratives existed for so many years and what might be the helpful counter measures to to deal with that? There are two reasons for that narrative. One is wishful thinking in the west from an ironic point of view because the west is not interested in China's success. It's interested in western dominance. It's a wrong idea but that's the idea. And the other is a lack of firsthand knowledge. And so these narratives get repeated by people who don't know what they're talking about. So my advice is stop writing about what you don't know about. Go visit China. Go visit western China. Go visit central China. Go to Shenzhen. Go to Shanghai. Go to Shandong. You'll see amazing developments. You will see an economy that is extremely vibrant, that's extremely exciting. Uh and it will give a different mindset. So I say to Americans, go visit. You'll see with your own eyes.
One of your key research areas poverty alleviation. And you have book titled The End of Poverty. And you have also called China's um eradication of absolute poverty a great historic accomplishment. So what are some lessons here in China because you've been to many small villages here that you think might be helpful to other countries around the world. China went from being a poor country in 1980 to ending poverty in 2020. It's a road map. It's a road map for Africa. Uh incidentally, which I explain all the time in the African context. First, Africa should be unified because it's also 1.4 billion people. So, if it acts as a true union, then it can emulate the road map of China. China was a high-saving, high investing, uh, wellplanned economy for 40 years with market forces and government strategy and planning, big investments in infrastructure, big investments in education. And that's the basic roadmap that Africa too should take to eliminate poverty.
Your critic of US hatch money and also support for China's approach of development and governance has made you more or less a controversial figure in the west. Are you concerned professor that this kind of negative perception of you might influence the public's understanding of you as well as uh your research? Well, look, my job is to try to explain as clearly as I can, as accurate as I can, what my research findings, my understanding of history, my experience uh in Asia, in uh in Europe, in the United States, Latin America, Africa. I've worked all over the world in about 150 countries. So, I'm trying to share that knowledge and um do doing the best I can to explain my point of view.
During the speech, you also expressed your deep concern on where Europe is heading. Um, quoting a very famous um adage from her kinstiger that to be an enemy of the United States is dangerous to be a friend is fatal. So, professor, why do you think it is vital for Europe to adopt a real and more independent foreign policy especially at this defining moment? One basic point for Europe is we're living in a world where uh economies of scale and economies of scope in the economy are very important. In other words, you have to be big to be able to be at the center of some of these new crucial technologies and uh crucial innovations. And China and the US are big. They're unified. uh they're in the forefront of artificial intelligence, in the forefront of the digital uh the digital age, in the forefront of many technologies. Where is Europe right now? It's got great scientists. It's got great universities, but it's a no-show when it comes to some of these key sectors. You don't have a leading European AI, for example. There's no European Deep Seek. There's no European open AI. There's no European tech giant actually very strange lot of major companies came from Europe but the US grabbed them brought them into the US ecosystem even the world's leading producer of the advanced semiconductors the extreme ultraviolet technology lithography is a Dutch company ASML but it operates essentially in the US political space the US decides where ASML exports it to stop exports to China. That's not the Netherlands or the European Union deciding these things. That's the United States uh deciding these things. So Europe gave up its strategic autonomy. And by remaining too divided among the 27 members of the European Union, Europe has to act like a unity. Europe is 450 million together. It's a 20 trillion dollar economy. If Europe acts like a unity, that's a big player. But right now, it doesn't act that way. It has been for 30 years, of course, under the US thumb. US has determined the foreign policy. US has determined the security policy. US has determined when the West goes to war or doesn't go to war. Europe's had no say. Interestingly, just an example, in 2008, the US said NATO should enlarge to Ukraine. This was very provocative. If if I would use a technical term, I'd say very stupid because it was the way to war. Obviously, many diplomats knew that. The Europeans knew that. I've talked to many European leaders. Even at the time, they said, "What is your president doing? That's so provocative." The EU is more people than the United States. It's 27 countries, but they can't find their voice to the US. So I said in the parliament, get your act together. Act like a union. Don't be pulled to pieces. It's a little tricky for them for many reasons. Their their constitution of the European Union, which doesn't formally exist. It's a treaty base, makes the union too weak. They operate with unonymity. They're a weak confederation, not really a union. And it doesn't serve for Europe to play its role in the world properly. Can they get their act together? Can they unify? Can they act in in a straightforward way? They're very confused. Uh they're very divided. They don't understand diplomacy because they forgot it for a long time. They don't understand Russia. It's not a simple situation, but I'm hoping that they pull pull together. It's a wonderful part of the world. They ought to get their act together.
Professor Sax, it's a great pleasure talking to you today and uh many thanks for sharing with us your very insightful views. Well, it's a great pleasure to be with you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
[Music] [Music] Foreign speech. Foreign speech.