Inside the Mind of Avoidant Women | Avoidant Attachment

I brought you here to Ambush you, of course. Uh, because you did share with me that you are an avoidant woman as well. When I divorced my third husband, I realized I was avoidant. I took a look at myself and said, "I'm causing pain here. I'm leaving."

Then, once they come out of that relationship, then that person, that avoidant person, will go on sort of a a personal journey. Like, "What was this? What did I just feel?" Wondering if that was something that happened to you.

I was in my 40s. I was getting divorced. I had 14-year-old twins. My company I worked for just got sold. I was getting a new boss. Everything was shifting in my life. So, why not? Let's do it. I jumped off the cliff of femininity, and it was a mess. And I found myself crying all the time. What does that feel like to you now? And how fast do you get through it?

[Music] [Applause] [Music]

Can avoidant women love sex with a husband five years into the relationship? And can a husband find a way to be useful and masculine in his marriage with a loving, avoidant woman? These questions, they might sound impossible to some of you watching. And a lot of you at home have written in and asked us, "Do avoidant women exist? Is this all there is in my relationship? And how can we stay together when that instinct to run is so strong?"

Today, I wanted to bring on the best avoidant woman I know and a good personal friend, Jessica Preston. She helps people in ways that I can't even begin to explain. We will get into that work that she does as well, but really, what I want her to dive into is her experience as an avoidant woman who has built an incredible romantic relationship for herself and found her femininity. Jessica, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Adam. We have had so many people in the audience, I audience, so many, so many, so many people have asked me, number one, "Do avoidant women exist?" Right? Because you're invisible. And number two, "Well, you are. You just are." And number two, uh, there's a lot of guys in the audience in particular who are with an avoidant woman or married to an avoidant woman. And we've been graced lovingly with an amazing audience who, they don't hate on people. They don't scream at people. We don't have the guys in the audience who are like yelling about how evil avoidant women are. They actually love them and adore them and think they're quite wonderful, but they're very confused by them. Because dating advice seems to run completely counter to everything, and it just sends avoidant women either like screaming for the hills or scoffing in dismay. Right? Like, "How could you have thought this would work for me?" Uh, and there are quite a few avoidant women in the audience as well who write in every single episode. Hi, ladies. Every single episode, they write in and say, like, "I, I'm learning more about myself. I've never realized I was avoiding. Maybe I'm willing to accept this label if someone pays me enough money, right?" Um, maybe I'm willing to take a look at this, but what does this mean for me? Can I ever be happy? I can't seem to stick in a relationship. So they're really just mystified. Everybody's very confused. Nobody's angry, not in our audience, but they're very, very, very confused.

So I wanted to have you on here today because, number one, you're a very dear friend of mine with all of my heart. And number two, I love, love, love what you do for a living, and I think that the world needs to hear more about that for forever and ever. We can touch on that. But number three, I brought you here to ambush you, of course, uh, because you did share with me that you are an avoidant woman as well.

Thank you. Uh, yes. And I've been thinking about this. We knew this was coming up, and I, I was thinking about when you first, you never called me avoidant outright, which was great. You did say, "Well, we knew, we know." Um, but what you did say is, "Nobody, nobody accepts the label of avoidance." And I, I remember when you had said that, I remember feeling that internally, like, "What do you, what do you mean?" You know, I felt really called out because we don't, as avoidants, want to be called out. I don't think anybody, avoidant or anxious, wants to be called out. No matter what. Uh, but it made me stop, take pause, think about, okay, yeah, that's true. Because I, I realized I was avoidant. I read a, a book by, uh, Stan Tatkin, "Your Brain on Love." Oh, yeah. And it talks about, uh, attachment styles with different terms. They, they use a wave for anxious and an island for avoidance and an anchor for secure. And as I was reading it, I was just like, "Yeah, that's me. Yeah, that's me." And what's really nice is I was all by myself in my avoidance space while I was reading it. So nobody was calling me out, which was great. You know? And I, when you really look at it, describes as you have talked in detail, actually. You give way more detail and a lot more information about how we got here. And, uh, so I just, I, I know we've talked a little bit about what I'd love to bring today, which is a little bit about how it's okay and to not that the feeling doesn't necessarily go completely away, and you just have to acknowledge that while you're in relationship and working through new relationships. Absolutely.

I love that. It's easier to be called an island than to be called avoidant, right? So much so. And, and when I, oh, I'm an island as opposed to that wave, you know, that that tsunami that crashes on that island, that that horrible wave. So that's it. And, uh, yes, it is nicer to be called an island than avoidant, that's for sure. So I got to work my way into accepting avoidance. I kind of wonder if there was anybody who is avoidant who was present when they named the attachment styles, or if they were named by a more anxiously attached person with bulby? I wonder. I wonder, right? Because it's like, "Well, I don't avoid anything. I've never avoided anything in the world." It's that's almost like the first response. But if you call avoidant people, like, a survivalist, right? Then they're like, "Yes!" Then they get a t-shirt with that written on it, right? So maybe we could call them survivalists from here on today, right? Okay. As a survivalist. As a female survivalist. No, I don't know. Now, maybe not survivalist. Lone wolf, you know? No, I don't like that. We don't like lone wolf because, uh, well, I, I don't know. But survivalist has that whole survivor word in it, and that's a little, you know, that's another word. It's like, "Adventurer." Adventurer. Okay. As we, as a female adventurer. Yes. As a female solo adventurer, right? You got to tack that on too. As a female solo adventurer. That's it.

A lot of the women in the audience today are going to be listening and they're thinking, you know, "I think this is me." Yeah. Some of them are, you know, they're in their 30s, they're in their 40s, they're just, just kind of coming out of a marriage, maybe, or they've had multiple, maybe medium-term relationships, and nothing has really stuck.

Hey guys, just pause for a second. I know that here on this program, we talk a lot about attachment issues and about fixing them and how great that feels. But I know that a lot of you in the comment sections have told me that you feel overwhelmed and intimidated at the idea of trying to go through and fix your attachment challenges. Some of you are in relationships and you don't know how to help your partner repair their attachment, share their feelings, and be more connected to you in a productive and loving way. For those of you out there who are struggling, I want you to know that we offer a special program designed to work with you on a strict schedule, even if you only have an hour a week. The Attachment Repair Program is designed to help us all of us, certified attachment specialists inside the program, walk with you through your journey on a measured, step-by-step process for fixing your attachment issues. This is great for individuals or for couples who are wanting to overcome their attachment issues and never be haunted by those problems ever again. So if you're afraid of rejection, if it's hard to share your needs, and if you're feeling stuck and nothing else has worked, join the Attachment Repair Program today and let's work together on building a great relationship for the rest of your life.

I know a lot of the women in our audience, I've, I've split, uh, avoidant attachment into ethical and manipulative. So we're not speaking to the manipulative branch here today. We're speaking to the ethical branch. Yourself, especially of some of the best ethics I've ever met of any human being alive. So thank you for that. Thank you. Um, but ethically avoidant women in particular, right now, they're, they're a lot of them are frustrated, right? They've been in relationships. Maybe you can relate. Maybe you can speak to that. But they've been in relationships. The passion goes hot at the beginning, and then tapers off and dies. And then they have to go into sort of a mechanical mode, caretaking. They don't just slash and burn through relationships. They're not just dumping guys left and right and and breaking hearts. Usually, they're trying and trying and trying, and nothing has worked for them. Was that anything that you experienced?

Yeah. And I'm, I'm happy to share. And I know we discussed yesterday, and I'll just enlighten everybody that when we end up in this space, we don't, we don't know we're doing it. We, we don't know that we are pulling back necessarily. It really is that, you know, we'll say survivalist mechanism. It's that that pulling away just to, to recoup and and recover and and then make a plan for ourselves. And that's that's how we get there. While our partner is seeing, is watching this. Oh, yeah. And we, I can tell you from my personal experience, because I, I divorced four years ago. I can tell you my ex-husband said, "There's a problem here." And I would even say, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see the problem." And that, that now I can look back on. So it's not just learning about avoidance, it's seeing that we didn't, that I didn't see it. That I didn't even see it. And I think that that's something I, I'm not hard on myself about it at at this point. I'm looking at myself and just acknowledging that that was quite a, a system that I built for myself to be able to protect myself for all aspects of my life. I was primary breadwinner. I was, uh, helping manage a busy medical practice. I had twins, uh, that were, I don't want to say challenging in a bad way, but dynamic and bright and challenging, as parenting is. I ran the household. And so it was just trying to, to, uh, manage my own situation. And I would pull back to be able to maintain everything. So when he would come to me and say, you know, "Things aren't right here between us," I didn't actually see it until things started crumbling at the end.

Did you not have a frame of reference for what could be better? And that's why you didn't see it? Because you just didn't understand that there could be anything more intimate, more trusting?

Had no idea. I, I thought. And so, uh, for full transparency, this was my third marriage. M. This one was a long, this was almost 20 years. So 15 years, I believe. And, uh, we had children together, and we had been best friends for a decade prior. Like, there was a lot of safety there. But he is an anxious-avoidant attachment and, uh, loud and booming. And so even more of a space of retreat for me, you know? So, uh, it, it just seemed that as time went on, you had kids, you add more responsibility, you add on, and you're just trying to keep your head above water. And so it's easier at that point to be able to pull away because you're just trying to regroup.

You mentioned that you guys were friends before. Can I ask a couple questions? Absolutely. Really quick. Well, we'll protect his privacy, right? Uh, you were friends before, is it, and but he was anxious and disorganized? Anxious and avoidant, what we call the disorganized blend. Uh, and loud about it. Like what you said. Is it, was it during your friendship? Was he more primarily avoidant, and you guys connected that way? And then once you got romantic, he flipped and became anxious as well? Is that what happened?

You know, that's an interesting question. Uh, so here, here's something about me. In friendship, I'm fairly secure attachment. I can vouch for that. Yeah, yeah. You see? So it's in romantic relationships where I'm, I'm avoidant. And I like to say I'm in the recovery process. And but when, so in friendship, I think when one person is secure, I think the other person, no matter what their attachment style, presents more secure, usually. And so I didn't see that. I did. I mean, we were good friends. I did see him go through other relationships. And then, and I, I'm not sure. I'm thinking about a, one of his relationships in particular. He may have, cuz I think his, his girlfriend at the time, I think was, was anxious. I knew her. I think she was an anxious attachment. So he might have been avoidant in that speci- as avoidant. And you guys would kind of, in some ways, meet eye to eye. He would, you guys would be very aligned actually, your views during that time.

Yeah, I think so. So I, I don't actually think that he was anxious at that point. But I do. You find that when you have two avoidant people together, if one person is like the primary avoidant, that the other person flips to anxious? If so, if somebody is disorganized style? Yes, absolutely. Um, the only times I've seen two true pure avoidant people get together and one of them do a flip is when one of them is ethical avoidant and one of them is very manipulative avoidant or personality disorder. Okay. I have seen them come in and use their avoidant tendencies to sort of get under the guard of the avoidant person. Okay. And then start saturating them with that oxytocin bonding that they've never really received before. And it activates almost like a pseudo-anxious feeling for them without a true collapse into the anxious attachment. You know, "I am unworthy. I am unlovable." So, so the avoidant person won't collapse into low self-esteem, but they will collapse into the the addictive features of oxytocin and begin chasing as if they're anxious. So they feel high levels of anxiety for sure. And then once they come out of that relationship, once the very chaotic partner leaves, then they, they have this feeling. It's almost like a feeling of, "Oh, that's what I've been doing to people." Almost. And then a bit of like a guilt sets in sometimes, but a heightened awareness. And then that person, that avoidant person, will go on sort of a a personal journey. Like, "What was this? What did I just feel?" Because they haven't. It seems like from what I've been able to determine, you know, the medicals better than I do on this. I'd love to get your input. But it seems like in childhood, there's such a significant level of infant trauma and toddler trauma, levels of trauma of being abandoned or hurt or other people being arbitrary, that they go permanently into a sympathetic nervous system state, blocks their receptors of oxytocin, and they don't receive it. So they don't have the ongoing addictive features that an anxious person has, right? Where it's, "I will do anything for it. I'm a junk monkey." Yeah, they don't have that. They have, "I've never really experienced it." On a cognitive level, so then they just block it out. So when you said, "In my third, in your third marriage, you had no frame of reference for a more intimate, loving relationship," that's that makes sense because you hadn't experienced that oxytocin flow. But somebody's able to provoke that in you, then you will go on that journey. So I'm wondering if that was something that happened to you.

Yeah. When did you first get oxytocin?

After my divorce. Ooh. I mean, really, it was after I did the work. Because I, I've always been logical, right? Until now. Now I get to be a mess. I'm a beautiful mess. That's the luxury. Yeah. So, and I'm, I'm embracing my messy. And that's something that I think we need to do. Uh, once we can accept that we should, that we should.

Were you never safe enough to open up and feel your own feelings? Did you never feel?

So it's so interesting. So I had a therapist in my 20s, and she pointed out to me because I would say, "I think I believe I this." And she's like, "You never say you feel." And it was such a foreign concept to me. In my, so I was like around 25, and it was after I divorced my first husband. And I, I was really, it, it didn't hit me badly, but it, it strangely, you know? So I started trying to use the words "I feel" in my 20s. So I did. Did well, no, no, no. I think I actually did. I believe I actually did start, you know, feeling some of those feelings. There you go. Just like she said. "I feel that." "I feel." "I feel that." "I feel." "I feel that." "I feel." So, um, yeah. But I do. I, it's believe it's a cognitive, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I started using the words. "I think." Words are powerful. And I think that when we use those words, we do actually, we couldn't stop ourselves. I think I did start feeling. But I still had my, my, uh, cognitive, logical, "This is the way things are." Uh, I, uh, I'm trying to think about like, when getting in relationship or even starting dating before I did the, the work that I've done, uh, it was more attraction, less, less emotion. Yeah. Like dopamine kind of chasing. Yep. Mhm. So, and always great in the beginning. And I, I am a serial monogamist. So I don't, uh, I did, after I divorced, I had, once again, I think therapy of certain types can be helpful at different times in life. And so when I got divorced, my ex-husband went into therapy. He asked, "I do the same." And I went in. We were both just in that space. My therapist said, "What are you looking for?" And at that point, I was done. Like, I was done. I wasn't looking for anything at all. And I needed none of that. And my therapist said, "You need to go out and date a hundred men." Oh, goodness. I know. Okay. So so many therapists do this. It's well, and here, I think they, they're all employed by Tinder. I think. I wasn't sure. It got to a point where I thought, you know, she was like, "Every week it'd be like, 'Who did you go out with?'" And I thought, so I would tell her, and, and it just felt like it was, I, that felt like she was paying, she should be paying me, you know? Because what is this all about? It just felt a little off. But it was because when she asked me, "What is it that you're looking for in a relationship?" I couldn't give you a list of the things that I was looking for in a relationship at that point in time. And I think part of that was because I didn't want one anyway. So it was hard for me to even wrap my head around that. I wasn't in a space where I wanted that. So when I started dating, I, I did this a little differently. But dating aside, what I did when I divorced, what got me into the work when I divorced my third husband, was I took a look at myself and said, "I, I'm causing pain here." Like, "I'm, I'm leaving." It was ultimately my decision. The first two times, and the third time, my ex-husband, he called it first, but then he wanted to reconcile, and I was, I was done. I had no interest at that point.

Had you ever had that revelation before, like, "I'm causing pain with actions"? Never occurred.

No, because there was, there was, there was always mutual pain. There's mutual pain on the third one too. None of the, well, first husband was not the greatest human being, leave it at that. True. Uh, second one, good man. Third one, good man. I, I think these were good human beings. We just communication styles didn't jive. Attachment styles didn't jive. So much yeah. And so there were so, so much involved there that I never looked at. And I think, I think a lot of people don't, because I felt that it was really a good choice at the time. I had never had a, "Maybe I shouldn't be doing this on my wedding day." You know, I never had that. So that can be scary. That can be scary for our people that are watching if you don't know that you didn't have that, that inkling that maybe I shouldn't. I didn't have that. I didn't have that.

So after, so when I was divorcing for the thir third time, I, I talked to a, a girlfriend of mine, and I said, "I am just, I, I'm the problem. I need to own my own stuff. And what am I doing? And what do I need to own in this space?" And she, she introduced me first to the masculine-feminine dynamic. Introduced me to John Gray, who's an a, somebody who is a coach in the space. And basically, can we talk about this a little bit, please? I think that it's important to consider the masculine-feminine dynamic when we're talking about avoidance and anxious attachment because, as, as a woman, and we, when we talk about masculine-feminine, we all have some masculine and some feminine within us. With a masculine being that safety, that holding, that container, uh, the, that provider mindset, if you will. And I know we might get some pushback, and I don't care. No, our audience is fine. They're good about it. They, they, a lot of them feel stuck in their masculinity, their masculine energy all the time, and they hate it.

Here's, here's the thing, and I'm going to speak directly to your women in the audience. When we are in our masculine, holding space, primary breadwinner, making sure we take care of the children, the bills, having the safety, we, we almost have no choice but to be in that avoidant space. So I do feel like they go hand in hand. I feel that when we are in that space where we aren't receiving that help, which comes first, the masculinity or the avoidance? I'm not sure. It doesn't matter. Pick which one works better for you to work on first. And for me, it was the masculine-feminine dynamic. So here I was. I was in my 40s. I was getting divorced. I had 14-year-old twins. I was the primary parent for all of their activities in life. My company I worked for just got sold. I was getting a new boss. Everything was shifting. So everything was shifting in my life. So why not? Let's do it. So I, I dove into the masculine-feminine work because I'm in this masculine space, and I really didn't have a lot of the feminine, which is the safe space where we can relax within a container that is provided to us by the, the masculine. Now, here's the interesting part. That masculine can actually be within yourself, or it can be with a partner or loved one or a, a, a husband or whoever it may be. But we need to feel safe in that space to be able to fall into that almost relief space of love in our feminine. So I, I jumped off the cliff of femininity, and it was a mess. It was a mess. And I found myself crying all the time. And I felt like, I felt like I was a teenager all over again. I thought I was a 16-year-old girl in this space. And so I really realized, "I'm an adolescent as a feminine. I am an absolutely powerful masculine." You know, but then, so that masculine of me is saying, "What's wrong with you?" The avoidant part with the solo adventurer part. Solo adventurer, like, "Get it together. Get it together." I can't. You know, I mean, so that was basically it, you know? But in my avoidance, I did, I did that in solo, in solitude, in my own space. And everything.

A lot of, a lot of women who come into me for help, they usually come in their 30s or 40s. I did have one young woman who came in her early 20s, and it was in the last year, and she was married. And she was married to an anxious man. And she's just very honest with me. She just said, "Look, Adam, you've been married 16 years. Is this all there is?" And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" And she said, "Well, you know, at the beginning, it was like this amazing rush, and it felt really good. And then we got married, and then it has just settled into, I feel nothing." She said, "I, I have sex with him twice a week to try to maintain him. He won't cheat on me, and he gets his needs met. I face the other way. We do it really quick, and we're just done. No kissing. I don't really want that. I feel like nothing. Everything is just so mechanical. And I can do this, but is this really all there is? Is there nothing else?" Is that a feeling that maybe a lot of young, or even married, right now, 40, 50-year-old women in the audience? Is that a normal feeling for an, for an avoidant woman?

Yeah, I think there are two sides to this, though. Do you know if she was into it when they first got together, or was it always dutiful?

According to her, there were times where she was into it. She did have some trauma around that area. She did have some trauma. She was into it at the beginning when it was new and exciting, and then it just fizzled and died, right about five, six months with the novelty dopamine, especially. Really fizzled and died pretty hard. Never came back. And because he was more anxious and he was more in his feminine on that perspective, she could never shift out either. So she didn't really feel safe with his, his presence anyway. But that wasn't even a thing for her. She didn't even have a frame of reference because she had never felt safe with anybody. Yeah. But also, I think subconsciously, and this is, you know, this is, I'm not a go, you know, subconsciously, she didn't even know. I mean, remember that area I just talked about, like, we don't know. I don't think she knew. She didn't respect her husband. I, I don't think she had. Because you can love your husband and and not respect them. Yep. You can love a Chihuahua, but you don't necessarily respect a Chihuahua. That's that's it. And so, and when we don't respect that, that man, that masculine in that presence, then we, then there isn't as much of an appeal in the bedroom. And it, this, I don't actually think has to do with feeling safe. I think it has to feel have to do with feeling desired. And, uh, what we may or may not admit to ourselves is stuff that we want in the bedroom, which is a completely different topic, which we can get into if you'd like. It's, it's fine too. So I think there are two camps on that front. So one of it is the, and I don't mean, uh, overly sexual, but just healthy sexual, uh, masculine woman. And then this space, which needs a little help and support. But I don't think that, I think the majority of women, we don't know. We don't know. And it might be for men as well. And you can share that with us as well.

So I think for men, you to correct me if I'm wrong here, but for men when they're in that avoidant space, I have, I have a lot of avoidant male friends, and they frequently say things like, "I'm a lone wolf." Oh, yeah. Or, "I keep things to myself." Or, "I don't share." It's a badge of honor. That, it's almost bragging. That's that's exactly what it seems like to me. So for the masculine, for for men, that seems like it's, they allow themselves to know. Yeah. Whereas women were supposed to be social in sharing. Mhm. So if not, not, then it's, we, then look at ourselves as putting ourselves in isolation as opposed to what we're prided for, which is large groups of women in collection and collectives. So if we're really isolating ourselves, that's just one more shame spiral that we can have for ourselves.

Hey guys, just pause for a second. I know that here on this program, we talk a lot about attachment issues and about fixing them and how great that feels. But I know that a lot of you in the comment sections have told me that you feel overwhelmed and intimidated at the idea of trying to go through and fix your attachment challenges. Some of you are in relationships and you don't know how to help your partner repair their attachment, share their feelings, and be more connected to you in a productive and loving way. For those of you out there who are struggling, I want you to know that we offer a special program designed to work with you on a strict schedule, even if you only have an hour a week. The Attachment Repair Program is designed to help us all of us, certified attachment specialists inside the program, walk with you through your journey on a measured, step-by-step process for fixing your attachment issues. This is great for individuals or for couples who are wanting to overcome their attachment issues and never be haunted by those problems ever again. So if you're afraid of rejection, if it's hard to share your needs, and if you're feeling stuck and nothing else has worked, join the Attachment Repair Program today and let's work together on building a great relationship for the rest of your life.

Is it hard for avoidant women to have female friends?

Once again, um, I don't know. Because as a masculine woman, it was hard for me having female friends when I was younger. Mhm. And now I have a lot of female friends. I have a lot of female friends. And part of that was because I couldn't tolerate them.

Tell me more.

Why? Okay. Uh, whiny, get over it. I sound like Andre. Um, but seriously, like, um, sorry, Andre. Um, but it's, it's true. It's, um, it didn't make sense to me. It just didn't make sense, right? Uh, so women that were, uh, cerebral, cuz I like thoughtful conversation. I've always liked thoughtful conversation more than ridiculous. Yeah, that's, I don't know if that's an attachment thing or a just a, I don't tolerate it well. It doesn't matter. I understand what you mean. I just don't, uh, so women that were really, um, feminine, I saw as weak. Interesting. When I was younger. Now I see extremely feminine women as very strong. So it is such a challenge to embrace that feminine space as a, as a recovering masculine. Recovering. I'm trying to find, find that yin-yang perfect balance, actually. I'm trying to have a good space where I, I'm a single mom. I have to be in my masculine to be able to take care of my family and to be able to have my household. And as you know, I have a business, so I have to be in my masculine for running a business. But the feminine is the rest of me. And now that I've learned that feminine-masculine balance, being in my masculine is like holding my breath. It's like holding my breath. How long can I hold my breath for before I need to take a deep cleansing breath? Okay. And so now I'm balancing that masculine-feminine. And I think that that has a lot to do with the same when it comes to this avoidance space. Is now I'm feeling that don't get me wrong. I still feel comfort when I can pull myself away. But I don't know if that's just the introvert part of me. See, I don't know. The introvert part of me that needs to be alone a little bit, or is it that I'm really just avoiding?

Well, that's a good question. It is. We, um, when we look at avoidance, we look at, I look at back at the hunter-gatherer kind of structure, evolutionary biology. And we look at under what conditions would it make sense to flip into a sympathetic nervous state that blocks emotional bonding and remove sentimentality for just raw survival state, without becoming a sociopath, right? Without that that added element that's totally different. So, sociopathy, I just want to say, sociopathy is completely, completely different from just avoidance. Yes, they can go hand in hand at times for some extremes, but but it's not a standard feature. So be very clear about that. Um, but when we have men who are avoidant, we look at that and we're like, "Oh, well, you know, he's, he's enduring. He's a lone wolf. He's a tough guy. He can get through." And that makes sense for hardcore survival environments of men having to do that. But when you look at the hunter-gatherer structure, the only time a woman would be that exposed is when either the men of the tribe are completely gone, dead, decimated, destroyed, uh, and or they are completely and utterly failing their job, or they've turned more corrupted, more hurtful, or she's been taken away from her tribe as a child and raised among more hostile groups, like a slave. So she has to survive. And most women will flip to the anxious piece and be more approval-seeking because you're higher, more likely to be taken care of, like a pet, basically. And your children have a higher rate of survival. But the avoidant women, like, flip into instead of like gather hunter, you know, instead of gather, like extreme gatherer mode, they flip into massive hunter mode, which you're not optimized for, but you can do. Women are capable of both roles when they have to, right? Protect the home front when the men are dead, kind of thing. You can do it. But like you said, it's holding your breath. It's non-optimized.

It, it really is. And I didn't even know that. I held my breath for 40 some years.

Your whole life, you were holding your breath.

That's it. And so now I, I love life. Like, like I love life. I breathe. I breathe. Like it's, I have a good balance. But it, it was work. It was work.

Yeah, it's hard. It, it's, it's fighting your natural instinct and your trauma, really. And then the compounded trauma effect as well. Because you don't just, like, "Oh, I have these bad experiences in childhood," and then you just go out and magically meet wonderful, happy people, and you just build secure relationships. The brain, number one, you grow up in a very select pool of people where you're going to have difficult circumstances. And I won't pry on yours too much, but I, it's, I'm fine. I'm open. And the other thing, though, I think that's really important to know is it, the traumas can be little. They can be big. Very little feel huge. They, they do feel huge. And everybody has them. And I think the other thing that's really important for people to know is you don't have to hyperfocus on them in order to get better. And I think that is a big fear piece for people. Is that you have to, I'm going to have to dissect that. I'm going to have to take that apart. I'm going to have to, you know, cry about my feelings for six years. Things.

So, so I'll tell you, like, my, my parents were together. My dad left when I was one, and my brother was three. No memory. Yep. No memory. However, I'm sure it is impactful for this. No masculine provider. So you became the masculine provider? Well, then I have a stepdad who came in. So, I mean, there was, there was that. There's a couple years difference. And the truth is, I'm not even going to, I don't really feel the need to explore those couple of years. No, I'm aware cognitively. I believe that contributed to where I am. It's really, when do I want to be? Yes. What do I want to do with it? Yes. And how do I feel when things are triggering to me? And we use the word trigger, and then how am I going to respond? See, in this new space that I want to be in, then when I'm get through an event of wanting to run and staying still and not running, right? Then once I settle back down, then I can say, "Where did this maybe come from?" Now that if I want to. So, so many people when I talk to them, they're skeptical. And I have to convince them, "No, no, no, your childhood issues, they do shape you." And here's what's funny, and here's a model I've been using. I've never talked to anyone about this. I'll share it with you and the people at home. Hello. I love this. AI training, right? AI model training. Let's take you. Let's say you take an AI. Blank. Not blank slate. Humans are not blank slates, but it's like, you take an AI, and you give it a foundational training, right? A very specific foundational training. And then you set it on a path with other programs that will reinforce that found training for the first, let's say, 12 years, right? For the first 12 years. And then it goes out and begins encountering different systems, and it keeps going back to that foundational training as true because you, you put so much data into it that said, "This and this and this." So 95% of its data is biased in that direction, and 5% is in a different direction. If I then told you, "Hey, that original foundational training on that AI is still affecting it," you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd say, "Yeah, absolutely." But when we say that about humans, we're like, "Ah, well, my childhood means nothing to me now because I'm smart and savvy and I run a business. My childhood means nothing." And people are just like, and they won't look at you. They're just doing this, rolling their head in their eyes. But it's, it is exactly the same. And then what, what you do with an AI is you don't go back and say, "Okay, I'm going to delete 95% of your programming." And now you, no, because you destroy it at that point. You go and you say, "Look, I'm entering this, and I'm telling you, AI program, your early data was flawed. We are now introducing additional data. I want you to heavyweight an emphasis on the new data instead of the old data because the old data, I'm telling you, is flawed. The new data needs, you know, maximum weight on it because it's real data." And the AI will go, "Um, okay." And you put it into the new weight of data and you start playing with it, and it starts understanding, "Oh, that makes sense. This makes sense." And making these rapid connections. Now the old data has far less bearing, and the new data that's actually more accurate has enormously improved. This is how you can correct an AI. It takes a while, but you can turn it and start shifting it. Same thing with a human. You are learning all new data. You learned, "Hm, my foundational data was corrupted based on circumstances that happened." It doesn't really matter what I need. What you just said, what I really need is new data. And then to understand that new data and play with it for a while and see what it feels like. And that will correct my view. Does this make sense?

It does. And it makes me think of the conscious-subconscious model. This is exactly what we're talking about, which is subconscious. Yeah. So, um, in Bruce Lipton's, I don't know if you've read "Biology of Belief" by Bruce Lipton. It's fantastic. You, if you haven't. But at the end, he basically talks about what, what we have going on in our mind. And I believe this is 95% of us is subconscious tape recorder that's going, and 5% of us is our conscious thought. We have the same thoughts over and over and over, day after day after day. And so when we go into a traditional therapy model, we are trying to tell that 5% to think differently. But if you were to go talk to the tape recorder, press play, and the tape recorder says the same recording over and over again. And you press stop, and you look at the tape recorder and say, "That's not true. This is how I believe now." And you rewind and you press play, and it still says the same thing. So we need to find a way to get that data in. And that is through so many different methods. They, there, but it doesn't matter how that tape recorder recording got there, right? It's about changing the recording. Correct. And that's, that's the key piece. And, and to change the recording, to change, if, if you want to say, we all have an unconscious AI in our head. And then you are the human on the front with the AI whispering to you. You're 5% human, 95% AI. Makes total sense that way for most people at home. Leave me a comment. Let us know if that makes sense or not. But if that's the model, then what you need to do, and, and the AI would be maybe centered on the right side brain, right? And this, this brain thinks five seconds in the future, maximize pleasure, minimize pain for the next five seconds. It's more emotional. It's more, call it intuitive, but it's based on emotional thinking. We have our logical left brain, right? And when we get emotionally agitated, you get into a situation, your boyfriend says, "Let's get married." You go right. Logic brain goes down. Emotion brain goes up. We get agitation. We actually get swelling, I believe, on this right side brain. You can correct me if I'm wrong. But we get that. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know that. So we actually do experience an inflammation from what I've understood. We experience an inflammation on the right side brain. If it gets too agitated, it can lead to seizures, for example. Um, but that right side brain goes up, and we're now logically deficient, emotionally skyrocketing, and we start doing stupid things, and we don't know why we do them. We're just running on instinct. Instinct running the AI in the back of our head has now taken control. And it's a drunk, scared monkey with a gun. And it does all kinds of stupid things. And then when we come out of it, the AI says, "I was right. Everything I did was right. Don't question it. Don't question it." We're like, "Well, whatever I said during that time is obviously true," even if we don't want to go back and look at it. It's having those experiences, the physical, emotional, hormonal experiences. When I send somebody out, and I've talked to you before, and you say, "Adam, what should I do in this circumstance with this person? What should I do?" And I say, "Well, you need to go have this conversation." I've seen the look on your face. You go, and you, and you cover it up very quickly with a sip of coffee. And then I, your eyes are, and your D pupils are dilated down. I let you see me. And I'm like, "Okay, I have no choice." Adam sees me regardless. But you give me a call a week later and you say, "Adam, I did it. I had the conversation. I thought you were crazy, but I did it. And it went really well, and we're closer and we're connected, and I feel safer." That's reprogramming the right side brain, the AI. And it is. Because we had that conversation yesterday. You're like, "You should do this." And I, and I didn't freeze and take a sip of my coffee. I said, "You didn't." I said, "That's a good idea." You said, "I would have used, in the old days, I would have said you were crazy, but that's a good idea. I'm going to give it a shot." We've reprogrammed enough of that AI, and you have enough of your AI reprogrammed to now say, "My old data is probably not correct. I'm going to stay aware of it." And you can talk to me about your feelings that you have. Because the anxious women, the avoidant women at home, they always ask, like, "Will I ever stop wanting to run away?" We'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah. But you've reprogrammed enough of your AI to not activate and say, "I'm right, and let's run." Yeah. You reprogram to say, "Hm, there's a concern here. And let's figure out if it's an adequate concern or an irrational concern." Yeah. Right.

Do, do avoidant women ever stop having the instinct to run? Does that ever go away completely for you?

Not yet. Not.

Yet not yet, but I'll tell you what I started with. I started with not running and freaking out and standing still. Okay, that was my beginning. Uh, was one. So that was, that was, we'll call it Ground Zero, why not? You know, we'll call it day one. So there was, I'm going to, I've dated a little bit over the past four years, so I don't mind speaking about a few people randomly, by all means.

So there was someone I was dating a few years back, and he, uh, he had this 10. It was probably, well, let's keep it in context. So I started this work in 2020, and it's 202, end of 2024 right now. Is there 20, 2019? 2019, December of 2019 is when I started this work, 5 years back. Yeah, 5 years right now. And, uh, 2020, like I don't know, 202. They've all together, I'm just trying about a year into this work is when.

And so I started with the masculine, feminine stuff. I read the, you know, the attachment style stuff. I started calling myself out on my own crap. And I, I started seeing someone who was, um, lovely, as everyone is in the beginning, you know. And, um, he would say things like, and he wasn't love bombing, but he was just taken with me. And I, I, that, it was mutual, but it was a lot of, this is really. And he, I think he's, he's a pretty secure attached person, which is great news for me. That means that I was attracting somebody who was secure, which was, which is a great, a great thing to to know. But he was a little overwhelmed. But he would say, "This is scary. I really think I like you too much. This is a lot for me." And it was really like, dear in the headlights. And that's still healthy. Yeah. And, and, and then he would run away. Oh, less healthy, less healthy. Not really far, and not just disappear for for a minute, a minute. And I stayed very, very still. I was just like, saw it for what it was. He at least communicated some of that. I was doing my work. It really did not feel good. No, at at all. Standing still.

Then he would return. And basically, at one point in time, I said to him, I can't remember the question he asked me, but what I had said to him was, "The best thing I can do for you is to stand still. You, you, you run at me, then you run away. Best thing I can really do." Cuz I, I saw the confusion. I, I saw it. I didn't personalize it at all. It wasn't about me at all. People usually don't. Yeah, that's actually great news for us. It is. It's awesome. It really is. Because I don't, if if I hurt your feelings, you're going to have to tell me. I mean, that's really it. I just don't know. And I still don't. I have an inkling, um, by people's behavior cues, um, but even behavior cues before, I'd be like, "Oh, they're having a bad day." I just presumed they would tell me because I've always been confrontational. Like, I can always dish it out and take it. I've always been fine with that. One, one of my, one of my avoidant friends usually tells me, "Look, if I hurt your feelings, you're going to have to tell me, because I will just assume that you hurt your own feelings." Something like this. And that's usually the case. Well, I presume you're having a bad day.

So I, I said this to him, you know, I said, "I, I'm the best thing I can do for you." And he stopped. He said, "Jessica, that is the most loving thing anyone's ever done for me." And I was actually a little surprised by that response. Why? I was just telling him what I was doing. I wasn't actually thinking about that. I was just, I just knew, or I, I, I felt that he was just in this, he was doing a number on himself with his running back and forth and coming and going. And that was totally, he needed to just figure that out. I didn't see it as this loving thing. I felt it was, um, the right thing to do because he was struggling. He, he was struggling. And it didn't feel good to do. No, but I wasn't feeling like, "Oh my God, I'm losing something," or any of that. It just felt like I was, I was just, he needed something steady.

You actually did two very kind things for him. One was doing that holding still. Yes. But the other was actually verbalizing to him that you were doing it, and that it was okay for him to rely on it. That's the second piece. A lot of times, avoidant people, I know, I don't know where you're at in your journey. May I'm preaching to the choir? But a lot of times, avoidant people, they don't externalize the explanation for what they're doing. They don't share context. They're like, you're like a CIA agent, you know, only need to know basis. And you don't. No one needs to know. No one needs to know ever. Uh, so the context is what's usually missing. And when I tell people, when I tell avoidant people, we all went through school, right? We did our math programs. We, we learned. And our teachers would yell at us. And my teachers would yell at me, "Show your work! Show your work!" Even if you try to do the math in your head, you get yelled at. "Show the work!" And you say, "Why?" Because I don't know if you're guessing. I don't know if you're just guessing every single one right and it's a fluke. I don't know if you copied it off somebody. I don't know. So show your work to prove to me how you're thinking, so I can see how you think. And when I talk to avoidant people, that's the biggest lesson I give them is, no one will ever trust you if you don't show them how you think. So you have to show your work out loud with other people a little bit to say, "Here's what I'm thinking." And then they can say, "Oh, you didn't just arrive at the right answer by accident." And I can actually rely on you because now I know how you think. Now I can feel safe in your presence because your, your thinking process is clear to me.

Now, I don't want to go too far. I want to get back to the avoidant women. But I want to ask you something based on that. How much do you think this is with avoidance versus introversion? Because I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been called an extroverted introvert. You know what I mean? Like I'm in my head so much without without feeling like, without it being in relationship or whatever it might be. I think of a lot about my business and, you know, the things that we're doing and biochemistry and we make people healthier. And so I, I play in that sandbox a lot. I like that time alone. And it's, it is where I'm energized. But what is that like? Call me out on my [ __ ] if that's.

No, everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone in modern day wants to blame everything on, "I'm an introvert." Right? "I can't leave my house, I'm an introvert." "I can't go to a social party, I'll be exhausted for four days because I'm an introvert." Right? "I have crushing overwhelming social anxiety because I'm an introvert." No. Um, learned behaviors are not introversion. Right? So if you don't learn or if you learn not to open up and share with other people and connect to people, if you learn not to problem solve together with other people, if you learn, if you never learn those things because they were not afforded to you and you were punished for trying as a child, that's not introversion. Right? Real introversion comes about, okay, how do you, how do you really recharge? Yeah. What gives you the deepest, richest serotonin releases? Right? Uh, maybe dopamine releases as well. I know you know a lot more than I do about the dopamine receptors and things like that. You could teach me about those. Um, but there's, there's, there's an extensive, where do you get your recharge and your biggest boosts from versus what can you manage to tolerate? Avoidant people, a lot of them think that they're introverts because when they go out and they're with other people, it's exhausting to run constant assessment on everybody and track everybody's variables, everybody's mood, everybody's eyes, everybody's body posture, who's mad, who's okay, anything I need to fix, do I have to get that guy a cup of coffee so he doesn't throw a punch at somebody? And it's just endless tracking of so many variables. It's exhausting. And then they say, "I must be an introvert." And you've never flagged as an introvert for me, not ever. You're one of the most extroverted people I know, which is wonderful. That's, that's a compliment. I mean it that way. Um, and it's, I could see how you would have a lot of feelings and experiences though that would lead to an introverted feeling because you might feel some relief when you're away from people to have the tracking turn off, right? Yeah, that might be it. But is that, yeah, it's, that's that's definitely true. But also because then I don't have to speak. I mean, literally, that's then I don't have to talk. And I, I like that. But you love talking too. I like talking too. I mean, so I'm like, that's why I said I'm an extroverted introvert.

What kind of talking though bothers you? What kind of talk when you say, "I don't have to talk," what kind of talking are you saying I don't have to do? Because a moment ago, you told me the vapid, shallow, pointless conversations exhaust you. And that makes sense. Yeah. I have no interest. Yeah. Have zero interest. And I don't think that has to do with attachment style. No, that's totally different. Totally different. But, but that makes sense. Like, I don't want to expend effort on something that is utterly meaningless and only drains me. That makes perfect sense. That's not being an introvert. That's it. Or people that complain and don't change anything. That's, that's more avoidant right there. Yep. That's more avoidant people. Not always. You're not wrong. Avoidant people, here's the, they're not wrong. But avoidant people fixate on that right there. It bothers them more than it bothers anybody else when somebody complains. Is it really avoidant though? Is that just, it just bothers avoidant people more? It bothers them more because they're like, they're like, "What an inopportune waste of resources." I, I make the joke that avoidant women, they don't usually like flowers, right?

I love flowers. Do you now, or did you always? Much more now. Yes. There we go. So because I, I can tell you, like at my old work, they would give flowers, flow on our birthday. And my ex-husband would send me flowers to the office on my birthday and Valentine's Day. And I said, "Just don't bother. On my birthday, there are flowers there already. Like, don't. We're going to have flowers. Don't get me flowers." So I think that's what you're talking about. Um, usually avoidant women, from what I've seen and talked with them, I mean, gift giving for them is much more of a practical. They're like, "Why, why, why did you spend money on flowers and chocolates? You could have bought more ammunition for when society collapses, and we'd be better off." I tell you now. So now, now I love flowers, but I'm a different person. Correct. The past four years, like now receiving flowers is, um, it does, it kind of, it, it hits you different. Yeah. It hits you differently. My wife, because we have, we have three daughters. And sometimes I'll ask her, you know, "Why do you think our daughters are doing this? Why do they ask me for these things? Why do they ask for this? Why do they ask for this?" And she'll say, "Well, they just want to know that they are worthy of you spending resources on them that you don't have to spend. Are they worthy of the few extra dollars and the little bit of extra time for the flowers? Are they worthy of you stopping and answering that question for the 50th time? Are they worthy of your time, attention, resources? And do you feel affectionate toward them where you want to give them those things?" I think it's thoughtfulness. Mmm. And giving something beautiful. I think it's actually that. Because you could bring home, uh, you know, a gallon of milk. I don't drink milk, but you know what I mean? Like, like I knew we were out of. Act of kindness, you know? But still. Or service. Act of service. But still. Um, I think it's, I think it is the, um, something, something that is that feminine. I think it's more the feminine aspect at this point of bringing something beautiful. Yeah. Something that is like meant for the feminine. Yeah. Because I don't know, men don't necessarily like to receive flowers. Some do, but I don't think that I would give a man flowers ever. Yeah. I'd be deeply confused if someone gave me flowers. Yeah. I don't think that that, I think I would dis, I think I would respect someone less if I gave them flowers. Why would I do that to someone? You know? And that's not even their fault. That's not even their fault.

So let's get back to the, there are two things. Can women, avoidant women, can avoidant women not run ever? Not have the urge to run? And then I want to get back to the sexuality piece also. So can avoidant women, I don't have as much of an urge to run because, as I told you, the first thing I did was I decided I was going to stand still. I wasn't going to run. I'm just going to be present. And what that looked like for me was I'd have to actually feel how I felt. Mmm. And that's the hard one right there, right? So I'd have to stop. Not run. Running's easy. And even emotionally running, like dissociating, it's still running. That's it. Well, that's perfect. It's, I didn't allow myself to dissociate. And so then I'd have to be present. And then I'd have to think about how I'm feeling. And a good way to do that while you're learning this practice is to feel how you're feeling and try to not attach it to the event that just occurred. So if you can just feel it in your body. So I, I'm really into somatics now. So frequently, I would feel things like in my belly right here, or in my chest here, or in my shoulders. Those are my three places. So right between my shoulder blades and down just a little bit. Okay. So like behind your heart. So those are the places where I kind of.

So what was that? The Vegas nerve kind of thing? Um, probably. Yeah. I mean, I think it all is. It's just where do you, where do you have that experience? Because some people have it like the pins and needles on their scalp. And some people have it, shivers all over their body. A lot of people turn bright red and splotchy. Panic. Panic. And that's, that's what you were talking about for maybe the swelling is when we have a stressful thought, mass cells to granulate. So that's our innate immunity that causes an inflammatory response. That's probably. I knew you would knew the right words. Okay. I think that's what it, I think that's what we're talking about. And that's everyone. That's everyone. We have this kind of, it's just that we are hypersensitive now. And we are all, we're all on edge. Yes. We're all on edge until we, in different ways. And however that impacts us. So, so back to that. What I would do is I would, you know, feel the feeling in my body. Take whatever caused it. Because here's what we'll do. We'll be like, "And this happened, and another thing, this happened, and another thing." I don't care if you're anxious or avoidant, we all have this. And that's a protective mechanism as well when it comes to our autonomic nervous system and safety, you know? So, so feel where you have it in your body. Try to remove the incident that caused it. Feel it. Just deep breath in and out. Breathe in like, count of four, exhale a count of six. Exhale longer than inhale. That resets you into your parasympathetic and takes you faster out of fight or flight. These are tools you can take with you to just practice with you. That helped me. So if that's going to be helpful, please have your people take them and use them. So at that point, then that can slowly start dissipating because not ruminating and reactivating it and reactivating and reactivating it. And so then all of a sudden, I'm okay. So that is what I started with. Now I can stop. But I'm still noticing I'm stopping. But I'm not having a, I'm not having a visceral somatic response anymore. I might be pissy about it. I might, I might be like.

God, I was going to ask. I was going to ask. I know. And I won't ask. I won't ask details about your partner. We'll keep that private for for that person. Um, but your current partner that you're with, you know, 5 years into this process now, um, where, where are you at when you have, when you have something that bumps you, bumps your nervous system, you might in the old days have had the instinct to run screaming from the building or dissociate. You still have a great feeling. Yeah, right. You still have a feeling. What does that feel like to you now? And how fast do you get through it? Much faster. I still have things. But I do want to say, say something that I think is very important. When there's something that we don't share, and I don't know if this is you, can let me know if this is an avoidant thing or not, too. I find that when we, we know these processes with our partner and we don't want to say, "I don't like when you do that." So we do a lot in my work, non-violent communication, I-M-O dialogue, neural linguistic programming. So you know, you know, I've gone off the deep end now. So like, not only have I done this, I, I work with a team that does this. And now we bring it to the world. In doing this, so you know, so and I'm not good at it. And I'm, that's okay. It's cuz my team is exceptional. Logical brain down, emotional brain up. That's none of us are good at it when we get bumped. I have eight people that I can sit in community with and feel amazing and safe because they're all really good at it. And they, and this is, and I, at this point, look at it as part of my, part of my charm. I just am a little bit raw and messy. But I, I will say things, but not necessarily in the right trained dialogue fashion of, uh, "Can I share something with you that's been bothering me?" Because what happens in relationship is, "You made me feel this way." That's what happens. And then someone says that, and we go, "I made." So one thing that I learned in relationship, and this is through dating over the past number of years, is if I'm feeling a certain way from an interaction that happened with somebody that I'm dating, I, I, I try to look at where, where is my part in that feeling? And I'm not necessarily good at saying, "Hey, can we talk for a second? Because I was feeling a certain kind of way when we had this conversation, and I just wanted to express that to you." Because I still struggle with, "How do I make it not feel like you made me feel this way?" Because I don't actually believe that you made me feel this way. I'm feeling a certain kind of way while we're in relationship. But I also know the person that I'm seeing doesn't have this training either, right? And so I'm doing my best. But what I have learned is, okay, if I feel a certain kind of way that is not positive, what's the flip side of that that is positive that he does do? And how can I emphasize those things so he can see how I'm appreciating him? So he drove me to the airport, and I sent him a text message. And he's always like, "Text me when you land. Text me when you get settled in." And he now drives me to and from the airport, which is lovely. It's new. We just started a couple months ago when I started traveling more. Mmm. And I sent him a message that said, "Thank you so much for being my shower chauffeur. Uh, it really shows me how, how much you care, or how, you know, it's another way that you show me that you care for me." Because I want them to see that that's how I truly feel. And my, I can't believe I asked somebody who's actually going to take me to the airport as opposed to just parking my car in the extended parking. Now I've, I am, this is actually a big push for me to ask. Mmm. Because it's just, right to the airport. I could just drop my car off and just leave it at the airport for a couple of days. I'm here for three days. I could do that. Why bother somebody? Yeah. Why bother somebody? And you remind me of this a lot when we talk. You're like, "And I see it coming now, a little bit, the more that we talk." You know, it's, it's understanding that I can ask. It's not a, it's not a tit for tat. You did this for me, so I'm going to do this for you. And actually, I've never felt that way. I don't feel like there's a game of, "You've done something, so I owe you." And then you, I don't feel that. I've, I've not felt that way. That's, that's not with his partner at all, actually. I've, I've not, that's not how I am. I just don't ask because I can just do it. Yeah. That's the part. So now I'm asking. And the first time I didn't even ask. I said, "I'm flying out." As when I was going to Houston to film. And he pulls out his phone and looks at his calendar. He's like, "When are you leaving?" And he's like, "When are you coming back?" He's like, "Well, I could drive you." So it was an offer. Never even considered asking him. And so, so lovely, right? That's huge for us. As, but we have to notice it. We have to notice it. We have to accept it. This is a very important point for the, for the people at home. Avoidant ladies at home, but also husbands or or boyfriends of avoidant ladies at home. That's something very crucial. A lot of their, their boyfriends and husbands come to me and say, "Adam, I don't know what to do for this woman. Like, I can't provide. She has her own money. Tooth and nail fights for her own resources. I, I can't do anything for her. She's just completely solitary and isolated and alone over here. And I, I, I can do nothing for her. And I want to. Yeah. And then when they ask her, she's like, "I don't have anything. You don't, I don't need anything. Why are you asking me? I don't, I don't need anything at all." No, I'm not. No, I'm not bothering you. Please just leave me alone. We don't know how to categorize. We don't know how to tell you what it is. I'll tell you, my ex-husband said to me at one point. So this, my third ex-husband. This all I'm really going to reference the other two. We, we really weren't. Um, at one point, and I remember we were in the kitchen, and it was in the morning, and I was getting the kids ready to, uh, take them to, I believe they were in preschool at the time, getting everything done, getting ready to go to the clinic. And I'm running around frantically. And he said to me, "What one thing can I do for you today that will make your life easier?" Do that. Do that. Do that for your wife. Because that, I'll tell you, that man got, got laid that night. We didn't can get to the stopping. I felt so much like, "Oh my gosh, what is one thing I can do that, what is one thing that is going to make my life easier?" That maybe it was drop off the kids, or maybe it was go to the grocery store and pick up these items. I don't even remember what it was. It doesn't matter. I remember the feeling of relief that I was asked. And it wasn't, "What, what can I do?" It was more specific. "How can I help?" I, I don't know. No. Yeah. "What one thing can I do to make your life easier today?" It was, it was a really specific question.

That phrasing is so crucial. Because when you ask an avoidant person, "What can I do for you today?" Whether it's man or woman, "What can I do? How can I help?" Immediately, I've seen it. I've seen it with all my avoidant friends. The brain starts going through a process of, "What tasks do I have to accomplish? Let me help you. Let me help you." It's worse than that. Okay, you're going to make me sit here and think through that entire damn list when I'm just trying to get things done. Do you know how much more that's going to add to my load to think through the list that's going to add so much to my load? Don't even ask me. I don't. You're adding to my work right now. Interesting. That's it. But if you ask me, "What's that one thing?" There's going to be something I can pull out of that list. Yeah. To assist. To enhance. I'm going to pick one thing out. You're not saying, "What, what are you doing today?" The worst question. So, "What are you, what, what's on your schedule for today?" No, don't ever. "How can I make that easy?" And the least amount of words coming out of my mouth right now to make you satisfied with what I'm going to say, and I can be done. Yep. That's, that's it.

What do you think of this one thing that I've encouraged partners of avoidant partners? So the non-avoidant partner is putting together what I call a menu. A menu of options. Sometimes great when the avoidant person welcomes it. You don't walk over and hit them in the face with the menu. But putting together a menu of things I can do for you and want to do for you to enhance your life, to make it simpler. Things I've noticed that you appreciate. Things I've noticed you might need. Is this the avoidant making the list, or or is this the avoidance partner making? So they can do it together. They can do it together. And if the avoidant person has no idea, usually this, usually this happens in couples coaching when the avoidant person reaches a place where they say, and they just say, "I, I really don't know what anybody could ever do for me. I've never had anyone do anything. I don't even know what's available to me." Yeah. I, I tell them, "You should have your, your partner should sit down and make a list and then go through the list with you." And you can add things to it. But it's probably going to jog new ideas for you because you've never had somebody actually care enough about you to pay attention. And what's really cool is when you have sometimes an anxious partner who's very hypervigilant, or or a secure partner, they can look at you and say, "You need this. You need this. You need this. You need this. And you need this." And these are things you've never done before. And I've watched you. You've, you've been limping for four years. There's a rock in your shoe. Stop and let me take the rock out. Yeah. And I've noticed that you do this. And if I could just do this, it would save you so much trouble. But I've never been able to get in front of you fast enough to have you stop. So you also need this. You need this. You know, I can, when you come home, I can have a hot bath ready for you. Yeah. And you can just jump a hot bath and not even speak to me and just go take a hot bath for 10 minutes. For a lot of people though, that are masculine and, uh, and avoidant, you know, nothing about me. If you think that you're going to be able to get me in a hot bath. Do you know how much work I have to do before I go to bed? And if you put me in a hot bath, then that's going to delay my bedtime. And I'm not getting enough sleep as it is anyway, because I have all these other things to do. So that's a challenge. It can be. And, and but that leads to more conversation. So.

And I'm poking this deliberately, correct? Because right now, if someone said, "I'll draw you a hot bath," I would love that. Four years ago, five years ago, not so much. So I, I think when it comes to this, this brings us to another point, which is being seen. Mmm. Okay. So when we are, I, I've really enjoyed the majority of my life not being seen because then I don't have to worry about what that means. It's safe. Do well, it's safe in the instance of I don't have to worry about what damage control that means I'm going to have to do based on somebody misinterpreting or misunderstanding who I am or my actions. So it's much better if people just don't. You know, that's not, and it's not a need. But then when you flip to the side of being seen, which is a feminine aspect too, like we all, masculine, feminine, doesn't matter, we need to be seen and acknowledged. And it's a challenge to be able to accept that when you first start doing the work. But when your partner, this is where I, I like this part of this list. This is the I like part. If they see things, if your partner sees things that could be helpful to you, Mmm. And then that partner says, "I've noticed." And not even necessarily a suggestion. "I've noticed this." Then it is a being seen. And we notice that we're being seen. It's a vulnerability for a moment. So it has to be kind of soft and slow. And I think a whole list would be a little bit too much and be overwhelming. Oh, yeah. No, no, 50 items. Absolutely not. But, but something like, uh, like I can tell you, who I'm dating right now, he notices things and brings them to my attention now. And now I can accept them. And, you know, there's that saying, you know, "We know things about ourselves that other people don't know, but there are things that other people know about us that we don't know." And so we have to know that the people that care about us are are taking care of those parts that they know about us that we don't know. Correct. And that's part of them loving us. And I would encourage people to allow people to love us that way. Uh, I've said this actually a number of times, and I'm going to say it again, again. I went, I take my team up to Lake Huron once a year for a for a retreat every year. And this year we went up. We were all sitting on our last night in a little sunroom. It was, uh, I, I said to everybody, we're sitting in a circle. And I said to everybody, "The parts that I love about you most are your quirks. The parts that are unique and different that you might even look down a bit on yourself. Or I love those things. I love those things." And they're just unique and special. And they make you show vulnerability in a spot. And when you can see that peace, doesn't our heart go out to somebody showing vulnerability like that? Makes me love them more. So why can't we look at ourselves that way a little bit more? I look at that. I, I'm, I'm a horrible gift giver. I used to be good. I used to be a great gift giver. When I was fully. You lost that ability. Okay. Listen. Yes. I don't. No, I'm okay. I just, um, it's not as important to me. Oh, I think that's what it is. I think that I used to love giving. Like the best Christmas gift. I was like, and I was good. I don't know. I loved it. What did it do for you? Felt so good. It just felt so good. It felt good. It felt good. Yeah. It was like, "Yes! I won!" Like, "Won Christmas!" I won Christmas. Interesting. Was it a status thing? Was it a safety thing? Was it building relationship? Was it just a dopamine rush of just like. Might have just been a dopamine. Might have been a dopamine rush. It's like, I don't know. And, and I had a, and I always, I would always forget. I would always forget that I was getting presents. Always. I'd always forget completely. So, um, yeah. And now I'm just like, trying for this wonderful man. And actually, I can't tell you just in case, but I, I did well for the holidays. I did well. I'll tell you off camera. I did well. I've got like three or four different things. And I'm really proud of myself for that. To be able to actually find that space. And, yeah. You've got a question. I see it. Is gift? You said something in there, you would forget you were getting gifts. Was receiving gifts hard for you when you were more avoidant? Was that tough? Probably. Uh, no. That's a hard one to answer because I don't feel an emotional response to that. So I can tell you, like, I had a, a girlfriend who gave me a really thoughtful gift when we were in our early 20s. I had a, I had a dog, and I love this dog more than anything. And she had it made into a, one of those Christmas calendar things, and everything with the picture and everything. And I loved it. I, it was just, you know, we were poor college students and it was like the best thing ever. And it was so thoughtful. I mean, I remember emotionally loving that so much. But I don't remember a lot of that. But I can tell you, receiving compliments for the longest time was hard. Receiving any kind of that because I, it was just like, you know, I think, well, I was just about to say, "You don't know me." Oh, you don't know me. So you know, what's that? What's that? Why are you even saying that? And doesn't make sense. Suspicion of motives, probably had a little bit of that. Okay. I mean, and in the dating world, there's some suspicion of motives. Time, you know, so much better now than historically, because now I think I see things more clearly. And I have a bull meter that is really pretty spot on, I think. So. And if not, then I'll learn a lesson. But so far, so good. I can imagine someone like telling you, "You're pretty," and you're like, "Who sent you?" Imagine. Wait, but yeah, I mean, because I am very cerebral. Like, I don't think about how I look at all, at all, at all. And I'm in my head. So when someone gives me a compliment on my physical appearance, I have to like recalibrate my brain a little bit because you don't have any idea how much I'm in my head like all the time. So that's it. So it's, uh, yeah. So it's an interesting space.

Let's, one last place that we want to go, cuz we've been saving it for last. Avoidant women, monogamous avoidant women who get into the bedroom, and it's, it's fun at first, and then it dies, and it's maintenance mode. She's milking her boyfriend or her husband like a goat twice a week, and that's pretty much it. Yeah. And she's afraid this, the pleasure and joy will never come back. What can you tell these ladies?

Yeah, I think there are a couple things. I'm going to talk about that, but I really do want to talk about the, the opposite of that as well, because I, I want to make sure both are served well here. Okay. So I think in the beginning of relationship with that, what happens is we, we don't know them as well. Can I reference a previous episode that you had? Sure. Please. So I watched the episode with you and Andre about his homework and how his, um, his trust scale goes backwards, goes down from like more trust in the beginning, and then you lose trust. And yours is the opposite. You have a, you have no, not a lot of trust in the beginning, and then you gain trust. And I, I relate to Andre's scale. But, and I, I think the reason why, and I can't recall if he, and I don't know if this is the same for him, but for my reasoning is, I, um, I don't have anything invested in you in the beginning. You are just presenting as you. And I'm really good. I'm very good at in the moment. I'm not thinking of the future. Like when, when I start dating someone, or even in friendship, or anything, I'm not thinking about where this is going. I'm thinking about right now, how this is, and meeting the person and learning about that person right now. So I don't know them as in depth. And inevitably, what happens is, we all fail in some way. N, none of us are perfect. And so we all have those failings. So we kind of start with this clean slate of perfection. And I have no skin in the game. You have no skin in the game. So we're just kind of going through this meeting each other, learning about each other process. And then as I'm more invested now, I have more to lose. Now I'm more particular about what's going on with you. And any little thing that might show you falling off that curve, I'm going to be able to hold that against you. So that sounds familiar. I've heard that one before. Yeah.

And so I think, so we're going to use this, but not in the necessarily holding things against our partner, because it's nuanced when it comes to the bedroom with a, with an, um, avoidant woman, because usually that means an anxious man. Usually, quite often. Okay. So what happens in that space is, we, we still have to hold our own. So we're not able to relax into our feminine. And so in the bedroom, we really need a little bit more of that relax in the feminine, especially once we're in a marriage. And I know we got a little kickback on the last thing that we did together about about talking about and how we can give to our avoidant men in the bedroom. But now we're talking about giving to our anxious men in the bedroom when they aren't able to out-masculine us in that way. Then. So now, I, and I told you my rule before, and I'm going to say it now. Yeah. Go ahead. I do two things in relationship now. I only date men who can out-masculine me. Good. And I have to be working diligently on being in my feminine. That every day. Every day. And it's not easy. But I have to work on being. Which means that I am not necessarily, means that I might have to submit a little bit more than my 40 plus years of being in that, that masculine space feels comfortable with. Which doesn't always feel good. But I'm learning, you know. So those are the two things that I have learned I need to do.

So when we are in that avoidant space and we have an anxious a partner, we are the one doing the reassuring. We are the one that is is trying to make sure that they're feeling okay. Which means that we're not, we're not expecting that they are going to meet our needs because they're not meeting our needs anywhere else. So how are you going to meet our needs here? So that I think is really what happens. So what, what do we need? I think that we, as if we can, in our avoidance space or our masculine space as women, try to look into that feminine. So this is if we're, and do it on our own. Then, you know, if it's not something you can do with someone else, look into what does that look like? How can I fall into that feminine space more? How can I relax into that? And that can bring back that drawing the bath luxury eating in that space. I hate all. You see my nails aren't done? Like, I hate all things pampering. They are a waste of time for me. Like they really, really are. Um, but that doesn't mean I don't love feeling good. It just means that those aren't my things. So find your things that are going to do that for you and give yourself that space and allowance for it. Your, your anxiously attached partner is dying to figure out how to help you. So bringing in the masculine feminine dynamic, seeing how they can be more masculine. I'll tell you, when I learned this, when I was divorcing, and I figured out this masculine feminine dynamic with my ex-husband, I said to my ex-husband, "I needed you to be more masculine." And he said, "Jess, you never gave it to me." I said, "You were supposed to take it from me. I can't give it to you. That's me being in the masculine." So that was the, that, that's the epitome right there of why we ultimately ended up here. And maybe if I had found this 10 years prior, we would have been able to make some change. I have no idea. But we need to be able to fall in our feminine. And we need our masculine. We need our men to hear it so clearly. Speaking about it in a non, in a way that is not, "You make me feel this way. You make me feel badly." We can't have that. So even just saying, "I don't know how to have this conversation." Look up non-violent communication. Look up I-M-O dialogue. Fantastic. Yes. Yes. That's it. You know, watch some videos on YouTube and watch them together and say, "I want to have this communication style because there are things here I think we need to express. Neither of us want to hurt each other's feelings, but we need to work on us. And I want to work on us because I believe it's valuable. And that, and I want to be here." We need to express we want to be here. So our anxious partner can sigh a little bit and say, "Okay, they, they want to be here." And then we need to give them the opportunity to be masculine. Which means we need to back off. It's an interesting way to say it. We need to give them a chance to fall on their face in it too. Yeah. And then we need to let them fall on their face. And then we need to not say anything about it. Or we need to be present and standing still for it and not running away. Because if they fall in their face and we run away, they have shame. Yeah. If they fall in their face and we're present and say, "Try again," they're going to be all right. If they are enough to gather it together, don't you think? Yeah. If he, if he collapses into it and is just a coward, then he is not going to be the man for you. Absolutely. Some challenge. Some men don't. Then he's not the man for you. Correct. And we've all had pain. And we've all survived. And we've all recovered. And then we do it again until we get it right. Correct. The, the most feminine thing in the world is to drop the handkerchief to call the masculine to the quest, not to go on the quest for him. Yeah. You can't drop the handkerchief and then tell him where it fell, or how to lean down and pick it up. No. Or when to lean down and pick it up. Or take his handkerchief. Yeah. Yeah. Or just say, "Now, this is what you're supposed to do." But you issue the challenge, and he needs to rise to the challenge. And it can't be, "Okay, yes, Mom. Am I allowed to rise to the challenge?" But he doesn't need to come in like Conan the Barbarian necessarily. He doesn't have to invade. But what he does need to do is be a grown man who actually lives on his own and stands on his own feet, breathes, lives, tells you what he wants. And yes, tells you, "This is where I'm at. Do you want to join me?" Yeah. He needs to invite you into in that and share that with you. But he doesn't, he cannot ask your permission. "Is it okay if I'm masculine today?" Then you're the one granting that permission in your masculine. "You never let me be masculine." Is the least masculine thing a man can possibly say. Yeah. On the planet. Yeah. Because it's not a matter of letting. It's a matter of are you going to do it regardless or not? Right. And then invite her.

Into that. So that's the biggest thing. I have a lot of anxious men who say, "I don't know how to make my wife happy. I don't know how to make my avoidant wife happy. What do I do?" And I say, "Stop trying to make her happy."

Number one, stop trying to make her. Who are you? What is your mission in life? What are your ethics? Who are you when you're away from her? And then, how can you be the man when you're away from her? How can you be that same man when you are with her, but invite her to join you rather than collapsing into her the moment she enters the room, and now she's the man and you're not? Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, that's hard work, I think, on the, on the man's part as well. In that, I want to make sure we get back to the feminine. Who's and sex and sex? Yeah. Just because, so, 'cause I was at, in my masculine space, it was, I, I would bring every bit of sexuality to the bedroom because I think we can. I mean, everybody has their different level of sexuality, and all of it is normal. I think that's something that we really need to know. Wherever you are is normal, as long as it's acceptable for you and your partner. That's it. That's so important to know. For me, I was more on the more sexual side, and I enjoyed so much in that space in my masculine. So that was, "Up your game." That was dressing the part. That was, I mean, all of the, all of the things, all of the parts, all of the candles and lotions and lingerie and videos, or all the things, all the things. And that's great. And it's not that I'm not there anymore, but I was in my masculine in that. Yeah. It's a lot of dopamine too. It was, oh, it was amazing. And then men receive that incredibly well, you know? So that was, that was a dopamine rush too. And then enjoying sex as well. There's that. It's all just, it all, it's all a win, right? It's all a win. And it's not that I'm not still there. I'm still there. But falling into your feminine and your sexuality, allowing a man to control the narrative in the bedroom is a completely different space to be. And that is where you get that oxytocin coming in. And that is now, that is now my past for years. That's it. It's the first time in my life where I have had this kind of experience where I have that masculine space and the feminine space. Ladies, if you are in this avoidant space and in your masculine space, start looking into how you can explore the feminine space in the bedroom. Your men will step up. They will absolutely step up. I, I don't know a single man that that wouldn't. Because men know what to do. They know what to do. If you show up as I used to consistently, 100% of the time, as the masculine, as the dominant in that space, they let you. They love it. But it's not the balance of where you want to find that love, where you want to get into that intimacy of not just sex, but intimacy of lovemaking, where you can combine both of those parts together. Incredible. And if you can get your partner involved in that, get him in that space, that's great. And you don't have to be the one to talk about it. If you're that avoidant, you can find videos or write notes. What do I do? In my program, I have women writing erotic poetry for their partners, and they can either record it and send it on their, you know, like a little voice message, or they can do whatever they want to do. I love doing this. I just think it's so amazing. And you can borrow other people's work if you want and just send it. And, and nobody cares. It's not, you're not publishing it. Or you can get to a point where you're actually writing it yourself, which I highly recommend doing. And then sending that. There's nothing, I think that's, I think that is so incredibly sensual and loving. And you put your own spin on it. And now it's erotic too. Because you need to have intimacy and eroticism to continue that part of your relationship. And I think it can, I don't think you can end it. I don't think you will end it. Six months. I think you can continue. I don't think it has to stop. And I think it can be for the remainder of your relationship, as long as you're honest with it in some space, space, and keep it, switch it up a little, little bit now and then.

What I've noticed generally speaking is with ethically avoidant women, once the man steps up and becomes masculine in a loving, strong way, yes, not again, not like a Viking attack, but in a loving, strong masculine way, and begins really caring for her in that way, that women just can't help but respond to it. They just naturally flip from that, "Okay, super strong, ridiculous, like, no one will ever, you know, hurt me again" kind of mode into, "I actually feel safe with you now. I have the luxury of calming down and relaxing with you." That's it. Better orgasms, multiple orgasms, all of this. I had a partner a few years ago who we, we experimented in this space of, because you can be present in your masculine, or you can soften into your feminine. And it's actually an energy that you can just pull into your body. So we literally, we were just present in this space. And I'm like, "Okay, going to be present in my feminine. Present in my masculine." And it was just, we were just holding each other during this time. And when I, when I put myself into my masculine energy, it's like, I have absolutely no interest in this. And that, that was amazing to actually have a partner experiment with the energy of masculine and energy of feminine. I thought that was really beautiful. And that we had an open conversation about this, and everything. I thought that was really lovely too. So you can experiment with this, or even play with that. As, as I said, John Welwood is really somebody I think that teaches a lot of that, how you can kind of fall into that space. Um, he, he's really great. There are a lot of people out there. I don't know if you and your coaches are doing any of that work right now. We are exploring many, many options to bring things in. I'm being careful as I roll things in because I want to make sure that we stay as close to direct fixes and solutions now to get people what they're looking for, and then roll them forward. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of tremendous number of amazing options out there. I know that there really are. I'm working with men now in that space where it's where they're in, they're, uh, avoidant. MH. So in their space here, and it's, how do we bring them back together with their, with their wives? They don't even have a. They usually don't even. And, and that's what's amazing is those men, massively avoidant men, don't really understand how to integrate with the feminine at all. No, at all. And they don't want the masculine, but they also don't really want the feminine. They don't really want anything. And then they don't know what they're supposed to do. So it's just kind of a dopamine fest. Avoidant women seem different. They, they don't really trust the masculine, and they have not had a safe experience with a masculine before. So a safe masculine comes in, they go, "What is that?" And everybody turns. And what that feels like, what that feels like for you out there in, in recovery or attempted recovery for avoidant when it comes to the bedroom, is it does feel like safety. It feels like you can be or do anything you want because that masculine is holding that space for you. It is phenomenal. And it's different. And if you haven't had that experience, work your way to get there. I think it's, there's nothing like it. I wouldn't trade this journey for the world. No matter what. And that's the thing is, every, just pretty much just about outside, outside of variants, pretty much every woman on the planet needs that. It's not, it's not an avoidant woman thing. Every woman on the planet needs that healthy, loving, stable masculine to keep her safe. Yeah. Avoidant women need it, maybe more. Maybe more. I don't know. I don't think so. I think it's everybody needs to be feeling safe. Everybody needs to have that experience. What's, what's the proper way to say it then? Because they definitely need it. Maybe need more of it to reach the same threshold? Maybe they need more patience, more time, more understanding with it? Maybe it might be more time. Maybe more time. Uh, understand it and believe it. Yeah. To believe. Because it's that whole repetition, right? "Oh, it happened once. That's a fluke." "Oh, it happened twice." You know, "Happened 25 times later, you're like, maybe I can count on this." And then there's the one-off where it doesn't happen, and you want to go back to step one. Now back. Yeah. Now you're so, so it's time in the longevity of the relationship, but it's also time in the moments of intimacy. So it's not, so it's, uh, staying connected, skin-to-skin contact, uh, breathing together. I'm a big fan of tantric and breathing together, synchronous breathing. So any of those things that you can do, if you can get your partner to do it, uh, which I think that men do will do most anything you ask, pretty much. Men usually will. You throw, you throw down the handkerchief, most men are going to scoop it right up. That's it. And if it means, you know, like, "Hey, can we try this thing?" It's like, and like, "Okay." So with a hyper masculine men, that, and I've been dating highly masculine men, there might be a little bit of, "You don't doing, don't doing that." But, um, I don't know. I seem to get my way, you know? Because then all you need to do, "Oh, it's all you need to do." That sounds so bad. We're not going to cut a thing. I don't think we should cut a thing. But, um, fall in your feminine and ask again. Yeah. "This is why I want that. I want to have this experience. I want to have this experience with you." Most guys can be like, "Okay." Yeah. And that's it. That's, that's it. That's the magic. So yes, yes, ladies out there, people who've asked, yes, there is so much more than what you've experienced. Yes, you are probably going to need a masculine partner to be able to explore this because you don't feel safe because you didn't have that masculinity probably safe and protecting you growing up. Maybe you didn't have a father figure or somebody who helped you feel that way. And that's why you're avoiding now, most likely. And yes, there is so much joy on the other side of that avoidant wall. So much. And the way we got here doesn't matter. As we said in the beginning, how we got here. We can shame spiral around that too if we're not careful. We got here. We are here. What do you want to do about it? Yeah. 10 years of therapy is not the answer. Looking backwards into your childhood and crying. Going forward and doing some things now about building a better life. That's the goal. Yeah. And it's, I'm five years in, and you don't have to work every day, you know? It's not, it's not like you're, you're holding a 100-pound weight over your head every minute of every day. Give yourself grace. Know that you're going to have setbacks. Smile. Call it part of your charm. Move forward. And the pleasure is part of the experience, right? Oh my goodness, yes. This, I cannot, this was worth everything as all of, all of the work I've done. And you will have setbacks, and then you get back on the horse, and you keep on going, and you keep trying, and it's amazing what you find. I love it. Yeah. It's wonder.

Would you add any other thing to the people out there listening right now? Any other thing that these women or their husbands or boyfriends need to know? Find your way. It's different for everyone. Find the way that feels a little inkling of comfort, comfort, comfortability for you. What's comfortable for you? "Okay, I could try that." Is it looking at the feminine aspect? Is it standing present with your partner while they're in an anxious moment? Is it suspending whatever event is triggering you and then breathe through the feelings? What resonates as the first thing to do? Start there. Get to the other side of it. Know then that you can do more, and you'll get there. I love it. Thank you so much, Jessica. Everybody at home needs to look you up. I know that people out there who are wanting to get in their feminine, or people out there who want to have lots and lots of healthy fat babies too, they need to look you up. Yeah. Please tell everybody at home, uh, what you do and where they can find you, 'cause I know they need you.

Well, thank you so much. So I, I have a company calledDenovo Fertility, and we help couples in relationship space, in connection, but we help them optimize their health and wellness for egg and sperm health so that they can have that healthy baby. We are doing the year 2025 is the year of the healthy baby. So we have a large campaign, uh, for everybody who's just trying or just getting ready to start getting pregnant. And it's all lifestyle. What are the right foods to eat? You can look online and find all of the wrong answers. We have evidence-based information on what's the right nutrition, exercise, stress management, relationship work. And then we do have some higher-tiered programs for people that have failed IVF. Our success rate is over 80%. IVF is less than 30% per cycle. And I love that even if IVF has failed, you guys can still, we take you. We have, we have a number of babies, pregnancies post-IVF, uh, and babies. And so, uh, yeah,Denovo for, uh, .com is where you can find us there. And then when it comes to the men's space of the high-level coaching, I am, my, my group is called Jess Unedited at this point. That'sDenovo Functional Medicine.com unedited. We have a Patreon for people who just want to start listening, and then we have some coaching that we're doing with the, it's mostly avoidant men, uh, that are working through how they can, uh, connect with their, with their, uh, partners, or how they can find that perfect partner. That's the best way. We're on all socials. Uh, we're everywhere. Denovo Fertility. Fantastic. I happen to love what you do. I love right. IVF in America is like the gold standard. And when the gold standard has failed, Jess gets the job done. That's absolutely true. And it's failing more and more. And there are more clinics opening. And it's failing because people are looking at the wrong answers. They're bypassing the abnormalities of subfertility, meaning we aren't, you know, a lot of this is unexplained infertility. We don't have a reason why. And that's because we're not looking at the right parameters. And so we actually look at the why. We, we get to your root cause and we start you getting things better from the inside out. And I'm just so impressed with our couples. Their relationships are solid. So now they're having these secure attachments while they're bringing babies into the world. We're going to change the world in those attachment styles with each other, teaching it with their children, and it's just going to have a ripple effect. We cannot wait. Jessica, I'm not going to lie, that's like the most feminine job a human being could possibly have. Why? Thank you, my friend. I work hard. I work hard. And a lot of this work, I think for all of us, is we work on ourselves so that we can help in whatever area we're supposed to be improving the world. And this is mine. My team, amazing. As I said, they are all in as well, and incredibly heart-centered and way better at this than I am. Love it so much. Everybody at home, if you're looking at fertility, if you're looking at wanting to have children together, she's an amazing resource and a very good human being. Jessica, thank you for joining me on the show. If you want to learn more about me, I'm Adam Lane Smith. My stuff is on AdamLaneSmith.com. You need to fix your attachment. If you are coupled together and you want to fix your, uh, your avoidant tendencies and maybe get better in the bedroom as well, run through my attachment repair program with myself and my coaches. We are here to assist you. Thank you for being here today. Make sure you like, comment, subscribe, share your experiences down there with us. We want to hear from you. We want to hear if this was helpful to you. If it was, please send in your questions and let me know you want more. This has been, "I Wish You Knew," and we'll see you next time.