Codependency - Part 2

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Transformed You. Doing a solo episode again to do a part two. Gonna get into some good stuff on the subject of healing, freedom, and transformation in the area of healing from toxic relationships. Specifically, this is going to be part two in getting into the subject of codependency. And I wanted to take some time in the podcast, to our podcast listeners, to our podcast watchers, and take some time to just walk through and explain, share my heart, give some insight. And I'm praying that this will be helpful for your life and for your journey and what God is doing to help set you free.

And if these episodes have been a blessing to your life, consider, please consider a one-time donation. Please consider becoming a regular supporter. You can go to markdejesus.com, click on the donate button. It shows you the various ways you can support our materials. You can send a monthly amount of any amount, but there's also two pathways that you can join in in our transformational partnership tribe that give you access to materials. Some of them are audio materials, some of them are video materials, and you can choose which one you'd like to jump into. The support is incredibly helpful, as my wife and I have given our lives to this, and we are passionate about helping people live healed, live free. And really, what we're doing is just sharing a bit of our own lives and encouraging what we've learned, and what we've learned in the help of others.

With years of pastoral experience, I've worked at large churches, I've pastored small churches, I've worked in larger settings, smaller settings, a lot of one-on-one settings. And people who are in the trenches that actually do one-on-one work with people, they really gain a lot of insight because it's easy to talk about subjects when you're kind of just watching the world and kind of developing your theories. It's a whole different thing when you actually sit down and you actually talk through and listen and pray through and work through with people in the subjects that they're struggling with. And we need more and more people out there who are just available, just good listeners, healthy people that can set good, safe environments for people to be encouraged and grow in their journey. But you're going to have to break codependent patterns. So we're going to get into some aspects of what this looks like and what you can do. How to get my slides lined up here. And, um, what we're going to get into, it's going to give you a quick overview.

First and foremost, we're going to look at codependency versus interdependence. Because in part one, I kind of covered the ground of defining a lot of it. Um, but I want to talk about what's the healthy version, interdependence. I also want to address why do we even become vulnerable? It's like, how did I get here? Some of you that recognize your battles and struggles, you're going to go, man, you just ask yourself, how did I get here? Well, you didn't just land there because you walked under the wrong tree and an apple fell on you. There's patterns, there's things that you'd be aware of. Let's talk a little bit about complex trauma and effective trauma. And I'm going to touch on the subject of narcissism because this also impacts codependency big time. I'm going to recommend some resources. I want to address Christian confusion and codependency. So you're going to hear some good rants from me on that today. And then I'm going to land this plane at some point and talk about how to break free.

Now, just to let you know, in episodes like this, this is kind of my mindset, this is kind of my heart. Is I have a, I have a general direction that I go to, but I leave a lot of breathing room for just inspiration to just be honest and just share. I don't put time limits on these, and this is why I love this format. I don't put time limits on them. And so whether you're watching this live or watching it recorded later, or listening to it recorded later, the cool thing is you can take your time. And I always encourage people when they, when they ingest my materials, I'm in no hurry for you to get through a bunch of stuff. Like, just take your time and let God speak to you. Because we, I'm, I'm working very hard to bring a slower rhythm to people's lives because we're so rushed. We want God to fix everything in a microwave. We don't let the process take shape. And especially codependency, this isn't going to be a quick fix. This is going to be some deep-rooted awareness and allowing God to do some work in your life. And you're going to have to make room and allow it.

And so I encourage those of you that, man, you want to take this journey step by step, day by day, get a copy of The Heart Healing Journey. And I've heard a lot of great feedback. People say, man, it's really, I'm, I'm loving it and I'm, I'm slowly consuming it. I'm sitting down with my coffee and read a section. And I'll tell you how I consume material. Whether it's reading, podcasts, right now I'm going through some video materials, uh, on some things that, um, that I'm interested in and and wanting to gain some more insight and just learning and sharpening. I don't sit there and just consume it all in one sitting. I, I take it in bite-size portions. And when I find, I read something and I, something sticks out and I have like, maybe that, call it, you know, revelatory moment or aha moment or like, wow, I just pause. I just pause there. I soak it in. I write it down. And I just let that marinate. So that's one way that I take in most of the materials I do. But another way is, I know it's good. I'm like, oh, this is really good. And I listen to it all the way through and just let it wash over me. And I pay attention to maybe some of the, the big markers that are there that that come to the surface. But then what I do is I go back through it again and then maybe take some notes. And interestingly, I take a lot of notes handwritten. There's something about typing where it doesn't embed in you as much where I, I have, I have journals. I have like a personal journal and then I have journals of material I'm developing. And I find that just like letting the hand write does something to the brain where it processes. So journaling or note-taking or those kind of things are effective. So I encourage you, and all my materials do that. And like I said, I've got no time limit here. I leave big brackets of time to just flow. And whenever I feel like it's time to end, I'll end. And I'm praying that most of all, that you'll experience some freedom in your life.

Now, let's kind of just look at codependency again and just like, okay, what are we dealing with here? We're dealing, codependency. What we're dealing with is really a relationship where there's an unhealthy orbit around each other. How you relate has dysfunction. And so if you're, if you're married and you have a lot of marriage struggles, you'll need to look at the subject of codependency. If you're dating, you have a lot of dating drama, you have a lot of drama in your friendships, you have a lot of drama, you got to look, do I have codependent patterns? Because codependency, simplified in the beginning aspects of it, folks, is really just an excessive emotional reliance on someone. Like somewhere in my journey, I'm creating a reliance on a person, which creates an expectation. I have a, I have a tie to them that's unhealthy. And so it creates a new orbit instead of my orbit rotating around who God says that I am and rotating around God's affirmation of me. I, I start to, I change orbits. You know, there, there's, there's sayings in history where, you know, there was a thought that the earth was the center of the universe, right? And then, um, you know, that's just something I heard, I don't, I don't know if it's true, but it fits this illustration where then over time, it was realized the sun was really at the center.

So I find that my journey of breaking free of codependency and getting healthier is realigning my orbit. Is is where is my trajectory going and what's at the center? You know, some people, the center of their orbit and codependency, the center is not the sun, it's not God. It's, it's a person. Uh, sometimes there's certain people where the center of the orbit is them. You know, like when they thought the earth was the center, everything rotated. And they, they, um, and we'll get into narcissism aspects like that, and and the dangers that that brings in, right? So I find that the healing process involves realigning my orbit. Um, there, it often involves addictions. I, I am doing a lot of work and helping people to realize, hey, this relationship is addictive. There's an addiction pattern in here. No long-term relationship is built healthy on addictive patterns. I talked last time about the one who's needed and one who's needy. And if you haven't checked that out, go back and go through part one because I think you'll really get a lot out of it. It's available with markdejesus.com in video and an audio format. Um, listen on the treadmill, listen on walks, listen, listen while you while you're doing mindless chores around the house, right? Maybe even some parts of it you can play for your family to help them, help them learn, or send it to your friends. Go, hey, you need this. [Laughter] But there's often an aspect of enabling. We're going to talk about enabling because many of you need to get free from enabling patterns. It often has dynamics of being one-sided, emotionally destructive, or there, and or aspects of abuse. It can be all three. It can be one of those combinations. But really, any relationship can fall into codependent patterns. I'm going to get into church codependency. We need to really let go of pastoral, church, congregant codependency, counseling, counselor, counselee, coach, coachee. You know, we got to get these things out of our relationship patterns because it's blocking us and keeping us.

Now, as I mentioned, the opposite of codependency, we kind of look at it and we go, well, what's the, what's the healthy version? Well, the healthy version that's given is the word interdependence. It really has to do with, I bring myself to you to contribute to the relationship. You have the same mindset. And so we both work together in a healthy way. Because the, the healthy side of codependent is not independence. Because many of us can, there is an un, there's a, there's a healthy independence and there's an unhealthy independence. You know, healthy independence is, I can be on my own and it's all right. You know, unhealthy independence is, I'm avoiding you and I don't want to be around anyone. And it can create some isolation patterns. But what, let's talk about interdependence. And I'll just kind of give you some, some signals that you can put as markers in your journey to go, all right, all right, this is, this is some things I can think about. All right.

So for interdependence, here's a key marker. Love is a powerful, grounded decision. It's a powerful, first of all, you re, you recognize you have power in your ability to make decisions. So you choose who to be with, and you work on yourself, and you bring that to the relationship. So this gets applied in every area of your life. You are where you are because you chose it. You need to take back the power of, I choose the relationships I'm going to be in. And getting healthier has allowed me to apply this in every area of my life. I even look at this whenever somebody signs up for a coaching investment with me, a one-on-one coaching investment. I have a personal philosophy I've developed where, as I pray through, first of all, I just don't, don't say I'm going to work with everybody because I used to feel like I had to be Superman and I had to solve everyone. And then I let go of that Superman cape because there's codependent people-pleasing patterns in that that get hidden. And I realized I need to recognize, am I a good fit to help relationally this person where they are in their journey? And each person that I connect with, I have an internal mindset, I choose to work with this person. So if there's issues or gets frustrating or it gets draining, I go back to, I chose this. I chose this. Therefore, it's not to blame, it's not to shame myself, but I go, I chose this. Therefore, I can choose again. Is this something I want to choose to continue with or choose not to? And this applies to friendships, this applies to every relationship in your life of beginning to take your power back to choose. And that creates interdependence. And some people may walk in that, and some people won't. But you choose to bring a healthy self to the relationship.

In codependency, love is a rush, a high, an addiction, an obsession. It's very reactionary, always reacting to things, or he's reacting to drama. You're compelled, you're rushed, you're pressured, you're driven, intense. You need the person to be better for you instead of you just working on yourself and bringing that to the relationship. You need them to be better for you. In interdependence, your identity is preserved, meaning that you still have an identity of your own. You know who you are, and you live out of that. In codependency, your identity is drowning because it's lost in the other person. And so I'm, I'm comparing and contrasting because a lot of questions that get sent to me are, okay, what does the healthy pattern look like? You're calling out the unhealthy patterns or the areas we need to get free from. What does the healthy pattern look like? In interdependence, here's your, here's your healthy reality. I take personal responsibility for my personal growth, grow and growing maturity. And so the, that's the, the outcome of my reality is that there's greater maturity that's forming and developing.

Now, in codependency, the unhealthy illusion is, we can't live without each other. How can I live without you? I want to know, how can I breathe without you? You know, a lot of, a lot of pop music is codependent. It is like, I can't breathe, you are the air I breathe. And then some of, sometimes, sometimes we can then use this in our, our expression even in worship of God. You know, we use words, you know, I'm desperate for you and stuff like that. And I get it, I get it. I'm not saying that's all bad, but it does kind of bring out our codependency addict kind of behavior. We want to even relate to God in an addictive manner. It's, it's really revealing our, our addictions. And so even songs that are penned about God have desperation, rush, um, codependent kind of language in it. And of course, we need God. We're lost without him. Of course, absolutely. But just bringing an awareness of some of our language that is not exactly grounded.

Now, a, um, unhealthy illusion is, this relationship is my life. You know, sometimes we hear people say that about our kids. You know, my kids are my life. It just may be a signal that 18 years from now, you're headed for a nervous breakdown. You're headed for a nervous breakdown because your identity and source of sanity is tied into your kid. And once they grow up, you're going to have a hard time letting them go. You're going to have a hard time letting them leave. Father and mother, and you're going to have tough decisions to make at that point because there was codependent aspects going on. So anyways, there's a fruit of immaturity, immaturity, whereas in interdependence, you're just, you're getting more and more mature in how you handle things and how you grow. Most of us are stunted where we've not made the shifts. In interdependence, it's consistent growing, stable, grounded. And codependency, there's a lot of drama, melodramatic, constant ups and downs going on. In interdependence, there's trust and commitment. Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to trust you and I'm going to earn your trust. I'm going to trust you, I'm going to earn your trust. In codependency, there's a lot of possessiveness and even as I'll show you in a later slide, the need to control.

In interdependence, you you develop a stable self-esteem. Like my sense of worth and value is not based on my wife, my kids. It's work with me and my Father in heaven. And I let that manifest in my relationships. And that takes work. But in codependency, the self-esteem hinges off that person. Like, man, they're like, who they are, and what manifests from them. And a lot of times there's addictive behavior in that person. So it just swings you a lot. They're very unhealthy, they're very unstable. So you're on a really harsh rollercoaster ride. You know, heavy ups and downs, a lot of anger, a lot of irritation, a lot of stress. But you stay in the, you still just stay in the orbit of each other.

In interdependence, there's an openness to the future, meaning there's new, there's good things that are going to happen, and it's different from the past and will open up. So this is a life of, we're changing, I'm evolving, I'm upgrading, I'm in constant development, right? And codependency, there's just a familiar repetition. And people from the outside looking in can often see it. It's like, this is just the same thing over and over again. You, you, you're repeating the cycle because it's familiar, even though it's dysfunctional, even though you hate it, and even though you're, you know, irritated at maybe your family or your upbringing, you still stay stuck in those codependent patterns because it's comfortable. And so there is a kind of a bubble life too, where you stay in that bubble. You have this little bubble world that you create. And, um, other people are not able to enter into it because it will call out your co-dependent bubble. And so often times, even families that are codependent, they have these tight little circles in in the family members. And it's hard for other people to get into it and have intimate connection because then you can be like, wait a second, they're going to call out the codependency and the alarms are going to go off, you know? So this is stuff that we have to understand.

In interdependence, there's a willingness to surrender. And codependency is the need to control, right? So in interdependence, I trust in God, and then I'm, I'm developing my trust, trust-building Christian fellowship, you know, that's, I'm developing, I'm learning to grow in it. Codependency is driven heavily by a fear of abandonment. It's like, man, this thing is just kicking you because it's like, I know maybe in theory, I should have better relationships, but I have this fear of being abandoned that I don't want to face. So therefore, I stay. This is what happens to a lot of people. They stay in bad relationships because they don't want to be alone. That's the thing that haunts them. If I get out of this bad relationship, I'm going to be alone. And I can't handle that. And the reality is, is you need to learn in some ways how to be alone. So to speak, because it causes you to face yourself and to face your life. And not have many people, they can't sit in quiet, they can't sit still, they can't be by themselves. And this isn't about an introvert, extrovert discussion. It's about like, we, we, we see that fear of abandonment is such a cloud. And it's like, it's really not that bad. We're like, oh my goodness, if I let go of this, I'm going to be all by myself, right? So we, we dread that as though it's the worst thing in the world. About myself, right? I don't want to be all bad. You know, we're just so, we're so like afraid. Oh, and really, it's like, you get there, it's like, oh, it's not so bad. Are you going to have the jitters? You're going to be all restless. What do I do? I got to keep myself busy. And then you jump into the next co-dependent relationship. It's like, no, healing from codependency is like, really just facing yourself in the love of God without shame, without being condemned, just a broken heart, empty, needing love. And all the symptoms that we have in our relationships, in our life, go back to a place where we needed to be loved, and it was not there. It was compromised, it was distorted, it was unavailable. And so that's where our battlegrounds lie. And and God is wanting to be a real present in your life to help you face that fear of abandonment and allow his healing to flow.

And so one of the questions that came to the surface is like, why, why even my coaching sessions? You know, their people ask us a lot. They come for help and they go, why, why? We, we often, we want to know the why. We're so hung up on the why. And I understand that. Um, sometimes we just need to see, oh, it's there, and I need to work on healing. But sometimes perspective helps in just getting to [Music] because we don't just magically become codependent. It's not like a light switch went off of you. There are legitimate factors. And I'm going to give you the main ones that you need to be aware of if you're going to conquer this and overcome. And the first is your upbringing in your home life, right? There, this is boom. And I do a lot of work in helping people to realize how their upbringing has affected their life. Why do you need to know this? Because most people don't compare their upbringing to what a healthy upbringing should be. Did you hear me? Most people don't compare their upbringing to, well, was that healthy? Was that a healthy pattern? So therefore, your home life sets the standard of what you think is normal. And it might be highly dysfunctional, but that's all you know. And you bring that even into your marriage and you expect, like, this is what it should look like. And it's actually your reference is really dysfunctional. And so I find a pattern in codependence, and that is they're disconnected from how their upbringing impacted their life. So they spin in the addiction cycle and they don't know how to relate in a healthy way. And they, a big part of it is they don't, they're not connected. They're like, my home life wasn't bad, or it was a, and I'm not trying to make it bad, and I'm not trying to make your family look bad. I'm just trying to call out what you needed because your codependent symptoms show there are broken areas in how you were raised. Sorry, because healthy upbringings do not produce codependent people. It just doesn't. No family's perfect. So we all got to work these things out. I'm already in the throes of teaching my kids how to recognize some of those dysfunctional patterns that pull in people they relate to and friends and and stuff. It's, this is work, and we're not perfect. And there's gonna be stuff we have to recognize.

So basically, when it comes to your upbringing, it's number one, the brokenness in your home, which how you were raised, the trauma that took place in your kid, and the neglect. That's a big one. Neglect, not being given what you should have been given to equip you. So many children are raised with autopilot syndrome. You give them food, you give them shelter, you give them clothing, and then everything else is on autopilot. And we can't understand why now our 15-year-old daughter is acting out or our 15-year-old son is rebelling because we lived in autopilot families. Cannot run in autopilot. This isn't a wheel you wind up and let it go. It's daily work, daily relationship, learning, working on yourself, right? And so it's number one, the brokenness in your home. And then number two, how you responded to it. So this, what we'll have to work through, because you as a kid, you don't go, this is unhealthy, and I need to get some heart healing, and I need to watch some of Mark Daisy's materials. No, when you're a kid, you see it, it becomes a sense of a normal imprint, and you survive and you cope. And so you take on a role in how you respond to the brokenness, and how you react to the brokenness, and how you've tried to make peace. And a lot of it is, I got to do something to make things better because somehow this is my fault.

So if you want to evaluate, you know, the dysfunction of your upbringing, think about some of these words I'm going to, I'm going to call out some of these words. I'm not saying you have to have all of them, but which one sticks out to you in an honest assessment of your upbringing? Confusion, chaotic, unpredictable, unsupportive, scary, unsafe, harsh, intense, performance-oriented, unrealistic expectations, perfectionistic, abusive, critical. Listen to this word and let it sink in. Neglectful. Neglect. This is, this is huge. I'm big on helping people to see this highlighted word, neglect. I'll go with some more words. Manipulative, controlling, pressure-filled, shame-filled, meaning you try to talk about something and it's, it's not given the freedom, it's suppressed. You're made to feel bad when you express things. What's secretive? Has some secrets going on, stuff that's hidden, judgmental, or the classic denial of problems. So any of those words stick out? And some of you say, oh my goodness, all of them. I hear you. It's just one. Let that bubble to the surface. And maybe this will help bring some awareness of some healing.

So the first is your home bringing, your home life. The second is specifically your relationship with your parents, father relationship, mother relationship. What were they like and how, how'd you relate to them? And so when the dysfunction is, so how about their marriage? Did they have a healthy marriage? Maybe mom and dad, you know, they worked hard at their parenting, but they couldn't stand each other, and you felt that. How did you respond to that? Were they able to meet your needs, or did you then try to meet theirs? You try to take on a role. Now, here's the, I put this on a slide for those of you watching the video. When a parent is unreliable or unavailable, think about those two words for a second. Unreliable, meaning they're just so broken that it just takes them out of being present with you. Now, no parent's perfect. We all got, we all have brokenness that interferes, and we, we got to just be willing to work on it. But they're unreliable. Maybe there's addictions in the home. Maybe you're raised by a narcissist. Or unavailable. So maybe there's abandonment, they're working too much, they're just not around, or your problems are an inconvenience. So then what happens is you can take on the role of a caretaker, meaning you're, you're 10 years old and you're, you're trying to fix things, and you're trying to care for things, and you're trying to be a grown-up. Or you become an enabler. You'd function in a way to hide or make room or just give a blind eye to things. So relationship with your parents is important because they're meant to equip you.

The third thing is, you have an empty heart that lacks healthy references. You're looking for love, but you lack the references on even what love looks like. So you don't even know what to look for. Codependents don't know what loving, healthy relationship looks like. So I've even had people writing to me, and I'm working on developing some video material on it, dude, can you please just give me the definition of love because I don't know what love is. And I just need people say, I don't know what grace is. I, I, and, and so I'm doing my best to define these things. And I'm going to just even put out content to just give some simple understanding because it's showing the lack of equipping. So we don't know what to look for. So what happens is, your upbringing subconsciously becomes the standard. Now, you may dislike your upbringing, but you repeat it anyway. And you say, oh, I can't stand it, but you'll repeat it. And, and we're just trying to feed that emptiness and insecurity because we don't love ourselves and we don't have true value for ourselves. That is what codependency brings out. And many codependents hide the fact that they just don't really like themselves and they don't have a proper image of how God sees them. So what happens is, you start looking outside yourself. And we live in a world where everyone is is struggling with dissatisfaction, emptiness, and they look outside themselves as a way to find happiness. And, and it just causes them to avoid the shame and inadequacy you feel inside. And really, what you need to do is face it. And face it in the love of God, and learn what does God's love mean for my life? What does it mean to experience that? That's why I do so much work on that.

So number four is where it really comes in. You become a caretaker early on. So what happens is, you maybe you become an enabler, and you just keep enabling. And now you're in relationships, and you just enable the dysfunction, and you cloud over it, and you're a peacekeeper instead of a peacemaker. And you just do everything you can to try to just avoid any eruption or any kind of them being mad at you. So then you put your parents' needs first as a kid. Some of you parent your parents. How many of you relate to that? How many of you actually felt like you were parenting your parents? And this is where false responsibility and people-pleasing begin. False responsibility, did you hear me? Not responsibility. False responsibility. And codependents were confused about what's ours and what, what's what for us? What is it meant that we're meant to carry? So you're just not able to just be a kid. You know, kids need to just be kids. Instead, you had to learn to survive. It's like you're in a war zone and you're seven years old. And so you feel, you're the one that has to fill the void your parents are not feeling. Now, as you get older, you'll get resentful, you'll get angry, but nothing changes because you don't know how to make the powerful decisions. And you could struggle with depression, and you just have all these dysfunctional relationship patterns. And so, like I mentioned in the beginning, number five is, you'll have mistargeted love source. You'll, you'll miss target, you'll misalign where you look for. So your orbit starts to rotate around a person now, or upon somebody fulfilling that, or maybe it's your pastor, or your group leader, or somebody that you need, you need to fill that place. And here we go, it's a place only God can fill. Now, we're blind because we don't know how to connect to the true love of God.

Now, I'm going to mention this briefly. I'm going to do some more work on this in some separate broadcasts, but a big part of codependency is trauma. And there's a lot of trauma that drives our life. And I'm a big believer that trauma needs special attention. It needs some special work. I've noticed that in my own life and those I've worked with. And so today is is not about working through trauma. It's more about being aware of this. And I, I, I find overall, there's kind of two, two overarching aspects of trauma. Trauma, meaning there's an active trauma, something that happened to you. It's sudden, it's jarring, it hits your senses. But there's another type of trauma that we don't often recognize. It's passive abuse, meaning that somebody should have done something, been something, filled in something, and did not. And you were left in that void. That kind of passivity is deadly. That kind of neglect is deadly because then you carry brokenness and you're not always aware of what it is that you're even dealing with. When people can't connect, it's like, I don't even know, like, what is this? Like, why do I, why do I struggle so bad? Why do I just, why do I, why do I? When that kind of stuff is kicking up over and over again, you were neglected. And there's an aspect of passive abuse where you're not protected, you're not covered, and there's not intentional safety developed. And there's, there's a, a real jarring to your system that it does. And often we don't even realize it.

Now, this is something that you want to be aware of too, in trauma. Is the term complex trauma. And this involves a culture of trauma where now, as a child, you're exposed to multiple traumatic events. It's almost like a culture of it. And you actually become used to. So now your dad's coming home drunk all the time, and you actually become used to living in that. But then you don't understand why you're always anxious and why your moods are unstable. And it's, it's hard to disconnect. It's hard to connect to the fact that living in that, which is what you were used to, made you have to constantly adjust and charge your system. And there's an aspect of complex trauma that you're, that you're affecting your life.

Now, I'm going to give you a quick reference because, uh, one of my listeners sent me some of his material. I want to encourage you to go over to his YouTube page. There's a guy named Tim Fletcher who, um, I appreciate his background because he, like myself, had a background in pastoring for, and his material says about 30 plus years. Then he experienced some personal trauma and he started doing a lot of work in the addiction treatment sector. Similar to my pathway, didn't go necessarily full into addiction aspect, but just more the whole heart healing journey that God really propelled me into out of my own journey and what people need. And so in his work, which you can go to his YouTube page if you're watching the video, you see it there, youtube.com/findingfreedommedia. And, um, you can go to timfletcher.ca. And, uh, some great materials. I haven't seen everything, but I watched some of his stuff on complex trauma and codependency. There's a little bit there on narcissism that I went through too, and just great stuff. And he has, uh, really emphasized that over 90% of people with addictions, and, and that's, and that's an overarching, you know, work in a lot of different areas. 90% of addiction, addiction challenges, people with that, they suffer from complex trauma. And it can be deeply buried in their life. And so, but this fuels a lot of their unhealthy behaviors. And he also emphasizes many times in complex trauma, there's a narcissist in the picture, usually a parent or a caretaker. And codependency, the person with the most power in the relationship is often a narcissist. And they make it all about themselves. They abuse people who don't feed what they want. They abandon people to preserve their selfish traits. They make very selfish decisions. Under their influence, you're told you're selfish for having needs. And you're often made to feel that you're the problem.

So anyways, check out some of his materials, his YouTube. He does live broadcasts, the last I checked. And, um, subscribe to him, follow him, show a lot of support. And, and if, and if addictions are an area that needs work in your life, then go there and and tune in to all his stuff. He's got a lot of material there. And, um, he needs, he, I, I really feel that, um, it's worth giving some time and investment too. So anyway, so let's talk about narcissism for a little bit, right? I haven't talked a lot about it, but I probably will more and more in the future because the study of narcissism and the subject of it and what it is, there's a lot of insight it brings that I think the church really needs to understand. And we really need to make mention of. I actually read a book, and this is just off the fly, what's it called? Give me a second here while I'm on the live broadcast. It's, it's a great book. When Narcissism Comes to Your Church. It's called by Chuck DeGroat. I read it and I, I don't remember putting it down. I read through it pretty, um, consistently and was highlighted like crazy. When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Get that book. Sorry, I don't have a slide for that. But again, When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. I'll try to make a note to to link that into the show, in the show notes, because I link to books and materials. Take you over to Amazon where you can get it. And actually, by the way, those links, there is an affiliate that I, that our organization gets for you clicking on that. So that's another way you can support too, is by clicking those links and making those those book purchases for other people. But we also get an affiliate as well too, that helps support the work we're doing. So anyways, thanks for that little tangent.

So let's go to codependency and narcissism because I'll first establish this and then we'll talk about what a narcissist is. Codependency often develops from an emotionally abusive environment with a narcissist being the abusive one. So abuse comes in a lot of different forms. Emotional, passive abuse, there's verbal, there's then there's the physical and sexual abuse as well too. There's a lot of different forms. Some of you grew up in a home where your, your dad was a pastor and he was a narcissist. Unfortunately, there's a lot of narcissists that are in pastoral roles. Narcissists can make great salesmen. They can make, they can build big companies because they live off of promoting themselves. They live off of showing themselves in high, aloof ways. I'm not saying all the things they do are bad. You know, politics are filled with narcissism. You know, there's, there's all kinds of areas where this takes place. Maybe, but go back, maybe your dad was a narcissist. So that would affect an abusive environment in the home. One of the biggest ones is his anger, his disapproval, and the performance pressure he put on the home. The religious performance pressure he put on the home. Why? Because he needs the family to look good to preserve his image. That's just one aspect. Um, for those of you that get, um, I'll get to that in a second. I'm getting ahead of myself. But anyways, and so it develops an emotionally dishonest environment. Narcissists are often the abusive one, and it develops in them. So there's not an honesty about the dynamic. There's not honesty about what's going on here because narcissists are never going to admit that they're narcissists.

Okay, now let's get some common signs of a narcissist so that you can, and I'm going to bring some clarity to this because sometimes people use the term and it's inaccurate. Um, the first thing is is a theme of they live as the center of attention. It's, um, when it comes to the orbit, they're in the middle of it. Now, sometimes it's very outward, like it's just arrogance constantly, it's out there. Many times though, it's hidden, but they think that they're special and can only be understood by special people. And they expect to be recognized. And they bring subjects back to themselves. They turn, this is a very common pattern, they turn subjects back to themselves and the attention back to themselves. So even if you bring up a hurt to them, then what they do is respond to their pain with their pain. And why? So you go, hey, Mom, you know, when you, when you were in this, this pattern and this happened to you, it really hurt that you weren't there for me. Well, I was, you know what I was trying to do? I was in a place where I was there. You go, there you go. There's that pattern. This is a, and that's why narcissism is like on a spectrum because we, a lot of us do this in our relationships. Someone brings up a genuine thing, we get into defense mode, we make it all about ourselves, and we miss the moment. It's a healing moment. We get defensive. The narcissist, all but the, a key marker for this area, because we all have selfishness traits, we all have self-centered aspects and things, but in this area is they really lack empathy. They don't have an ability to show genuine interest in your life. So as a result, they're always turning the orbit. They want to keep your orbit around them. And, and so in addition to that, they have grandiose terms because it, it inflates their self-importance. So they describe things when they're storytelling, they describe things in grandiose terms. And this fits so well in the modern, like, dream big and everything's big and this person's amazing and this all this amazing thing happened and, and, and everything's just huge and big terms. And they ha, sometimes they can have private fantasies in their own thinking about how powerful they are. And they have a delusional perspective of their journey. And they really just need a wake-up call. But don't worry, you're not going to be the one that's going to give it to them because even if you do, I've confronted narcissists straight up, straight up, like the DeJesus treatment, and a hundred percent of the time, there's no change. Just letting you know, just FYI, because this isn't your job to change these people. It's to develop your boundaries and most likely move on and figure out how you're going to move forward.

And narcissists are very entitled. They have a lot of entitlement that they live in. And so they get angry at God. They, when what a narcissist does is they inflate their journey, but, and they keep a cover. But what happens is when they get, when they get a vulnerable moment, so when you catch a narcissist in a vulnerable moment where they, their weaknesses are brought to the surface, vulnerability, instantly they spiral victim, self-pity. So they live a life of pride, but then when their armor is shown to be vulnerable, which no one has perfect armor, then they spiral in self-pity. Oh, my life is terrible, to distract you from the real problem and to use guilt as a manipulator on you. Narcissistic mothers can do this very, very easily and in very easy ways to use emotion as a way. But men do it, do it as well too. Okay.

So then there's this term called gaslighting. Maybe I'll explain this more down the road. Uh, it comes from a 1930s play and a movie where in the movie, the man would, a man or woman, uh, I think it's a husband and wife, but the man would keep changing the in the house. He had gas lights and he would keep turning them up and down, up and down. And his wife goes, oh my goodness, something happened with the lights. And he denies it whenever she would ask. So she goes crazy because he's changing things and then denying that they're being changed. And so gaslighting is where they just doubt your reality and they question you when you say things and they turn. I've seen narcissists actually rewrite history in their journey. Like, and I was like, no, that didn't happen. They, they moved the goalposts and shape-shift. And, and they used like very, um, subliminal kind of undercurrent ways. Oh, I was just joking. Or you get so upset over nothing, you're so sensitive. You know, well, you need to just, you know, you need to just toughen up or something, you know, I never said that. Oh, I was just joking. You're imagining this. It's manipulative. It's mind games. It's relational hypnosis. And so lastly, what they're doing is just really, they're con, they have a constructed image because underneath the image, narcissists are empty, empty, absolutely empty. How they see themselves. And so they have to have a constructed image. So everything they do is to survive in that, keep it up because shame is underneath that wall, underneath that that veneer is shame. And so many narcissists have a hard time having long-term close friends. So if you look at their life, they don't have close friends, close that know their stuff and are close for a long period of time, unless it's a codependent environment where the narcissist can be the one that is needed and set that orbit, rotate around me, rotate around me.

Okay, now there's, there's three different kinds of narcissists, mainly, mainly. Just, and I know when I bring this up, so I think I mentioned the word once and I had a whole bunch of comments about this. I'm just kind of giving some, some overview thoughts of it. There's the exhibitionist, which means it's, this is the one where the, it's overt. They're always talking about themselves to the point it puts other people down. They just keep rotating it back to them, and it's just way out there. The second is the toxic malignant one, and this is where, and they just, they're so emotionally disconnected, they're sadistic. They feel alive when they cause pain to other people. This is kind of the bully factor. The one that you need to be aware of for your healing journey is the covert narcissist. They don't put themselves out there. This is not like a display. In fact, they portray themselves as humble. Oh, and you, and they see a lot of like, oh, no, don't worry about me. It's, it's kind of like.

It's kind of like this. No, don't worry about me. Don't worry about me. You know, they're putting a hand to shoe you away with the other hand. They're going, "Come here, come here. Don't worry about me. Look at me, how humble I am, right?"

Is playing a lot of manipulative games with you. They seem depressed at times. They seem to hate themselves, but they subtly communicate, "Please make this all about me." They pull you into a corner. They're having these conversations with you. They drain you. They want to pull you into the vortex of all that that's going on in their life, and they want to pull you into their orbit.

Now, here's what I want you to understand about narcissism. The misconception about narcissists is they love themselves so much. The misconception about narcissists is they love themselves way too much. And this is why I talk a lot about loving yourself and healthy self-love. Because most Christians, when they hear that, they go to selfishness, self-absorbed, even narcissism. It's not. It's not. I even talk about the Bible talks about lovers of themselves. I wrote a whole article to explain what that is. That's not what we're talking about here. I'm talking about when you love yourself, you see yourself the way God sees you, and it produces a healthier response in how you do life and how you do relationships.

Narcissists do not love themselves at all. They may show love to the image that they portray. They hate themselves at epic levels, which drives them to keep this facade. They have in their history massive, massive, capital letters, massive neglect in their story and in their journey, massive. And so they had to become caretakers, or they had to become whatever they had to. They had to bring into a role because Dad couldn't step up to the plate, because Mom was, you know, out of commission, disconnected, checked out. And so early on, they had to survive that deep neglect.

And so I want to really bring correction to that. Narcissism is not loving yourself at all. It's deep self-hate. They hate themselves so much, but they, but they've fallen. They've fallen for an affection and an addiction to their image. And, and, and now narcissism forms. And then they end up reproducing narcissists because they leave a trail of neglect for other people. And, and, and the trigger for the narcissist is when you don't buy the armor that they show you. When you just don't really buy it. You don't really buy the image of the perfection. You don't really buy the victim story. You don't really buy the orbit around them. And when you don't feed it, you're going to see some anger. You're going to see some anger.

Now, what I want to call out is, I want to call out codependency in Christianity. Because we are a breeding ground for codependency. Can we get admit? Can we admit to that? Because in Christian circles, we've been notorious of using words and phrases that pull people and encourage codependency. Like Christians are supposed to put others first. You know, deny yourself. You're supposed to give your life away. Forsake all. Go change the world. Go into the world. Serve others. Give your life to serve others. Christians need to be willing to give up everything to serve. It's all about serving.

Now, I'm not saying those statements are bad. But if you're discerning, can you see the fuel underneath it of how it can fuel you ignoring yourself and never knowing how to make boundaries, how to make clear decisions? And you only respond to what's out there. And we're producing people-pleasing believers like it's a professional factory. We're outputting them like a factory puts out processed foods. We're putting out believers, and we're encouraging codependency. And anytime you start to say, "You know, I need to pay attention to some things. I need to be healthier in my life." "No, that's selfish. Life isn't about you. Life is about others."

The problem is, is that those kind of statements can re-ignite or validate codependency. I'm gonna quote some stuff from, uh, Celebrate Recovery. I've got some, you know, some great materials, but just some quotes. The difference between a life of service and codependency takes several forms. Listen to this motivation. The difference between a life of service and codependency really has to do with the motive. And most people are not honest about their motives. You catch that? Most people are not honest about their motives, especially those that are obsessive servers. We look at them and we assume all the motives are good. And we do it. We assume all our motives are good.

Well, what if you took a break from serving? What if you took a break for a month and didn't do the incessant serving? What'd you do with yourself? How would you feel about your connection to God? How would you deal with that month? And really, what would happen? It would show your service addiction. And very uncomfortable with yourself. And I've told this over and over again, it's easy to give your life to others and ignore yourself. And you can disagree with me on that, but it's easy. It is easy. Spend your whole day doing stuff.

Now, you might say, "Oh, no, Mark, it's exhausting." Yo, it's way more work to stop, slow down, and look at yourself and let God deal with your true motives. Because most of the time, what's our real motive by serving? I want to feel that God loves me. By serving, I get that little dose of "good job" from the church. And it's like a dopamine hit. It's my Christian cocaine to feel that applause. See, now we're getting honest. Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting real about our life and our journey, right? We're laying down the facade. We're letting the stuff start to get real in our hearts, in our lives. And part of it is getting real about how we promote what we say is good Christian service. Let me get my slide situated here.

Now, let me contrast healthier living. A codependent in their healing process, they're going to learn to gain their self-worth in Christ and the love of the Father. That's why I do so much about the Father. The Bible teaches that believers have worth simply because you were created by God. That's that's that's the start. And then we're in Christ. So everything, everything I have and walk in is because I'm in Christ. Your self-worth is not based on what you do. Your self-worth is not based on what you do. Your worth, your value, your being loved is not based on what you do. It's not based on what you do. It's not based on what you do. Nope. You're, your recording is not messed up. That's me repeating. It's not based on what you do. It's not based on what you do. We've got to let this go. You're loved right where you are, right now.

So then service becomes an active choice. I choose to do such and such out of love, not because I have to or I'm pulled or guilted. So you learn to act rather than react. Now, Christian faith calls for balanced living and taking care of yourself. You choose balanced behavior rather than addictive behavior. You take responsibility for your life, for your health. You learn how to set and hold boundaries, set limits. You learn how to hold them without guilt. You learn to help others in appropriate ways. You learn to be God-directed. And people say, "How do I do that?" You got to let go of being compulsive or impulsive, knowing that God works and just flow with Him and get rid of all this intensity and addict living. Let Him bring the results. Let Him bring the fruit.

Now, I'm gonna get real in some of this because I'm gonna talk about Jesus and how he fought back codependent patterns from people. He's, of course, the ultimate example. He was incredibly influential, right? The most influential person in all of history and forever will be. His relationship interactions were incredible, but they were very challenging and at times really uncomfortable. He knew when to say no. And when he said no was not when we thought he would say no. People say, "Oh, we need to be like Jesus. What would Jesus do?" And we don't realize that what would Jesus do would often be very uncomfortable because it would bring out our dysfunctional patterns.

Now, Jesus came to save the world. That's a heavy burden on his shoulders, right? World changer. But he made a lot of people upset. Disrupted people's mindsets. There's even a story where he, as a young child, he's already growing into a man. He's transitioning into what it means to not just be a child, but be a man. And he's out and he's, he's hanging out with the teachers, and he's, he's revelating. He's already stirring up who he is. And he's already stirring up coming out of his father and mother's covering. And they're like, "Where have you been, Jesus? We had a panic attack. We're walking down the aisle at the grocery store and we lost you. What's going on?" Right? Like all parents do. It's all right. What's his response? "Don't you know about my Father's business?" And it was a recognition, "Hey, I'm in a transition. Don't you see that?" And a lot of times, codependents, they've never left father and mother. And Jesus is already at this age, recognizing, "I'm building who I am in my identity as a man."

Now, now I'm going to take this a step further. Because a lot of times people don't really see in this story what's going on. Jesus is teaching some of his heavy stuff in Matthew chapter 12. You can look this up for yourself. Matthew 12. I'm going to be in verses 43 through 50. Jesus is going to some heavy, heavyweight champion of the world kind of fighting stuff. He's talking about demonics and the nitty-gritty. He says in verse 43, "Now, I'm going somewhere with this. When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he," this is the evil spirit, "goes through dry places seeking rest and finds none. Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first." So shall it also be with this wicked generation.

Now, my point here is not to, not to give you theology on spiritual warfare, evil spirits. Um, I, I don't waste time arguing with those things. There's a lot of nonsense arguing that's going on. You just need to know there's war. There's a war going on. And what Jesus is saying here is, there's deliverance that takes place. And the guy's response is to just kind of, "Oh, it's nice and tidy. It's clean now." And the implication is that it wasn't filled. So this reveals to us, when you're getting free from stuff in your life, you got to learn how to fill it. Now, that's not even my point. In reading this, okay? Now, my point, I'm, I'm not even close to where I'm going with this. "So shall it be with this wicked generation."

Now, I'm getting, now I'm getting to my point right here. While He was talking to the multitudes, this is a heavy subject, right? Unclean spirits and seven more coming back. And this generation's, I mean, he's just kicking up the bushes and stirring everything up. And God, the kingdom of God is moving, right? While He was talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside seeking to speak with Him. And interesting. And then one of them said, "Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak with you." But He answered and said, "This is, this is hysterical. This is one of the moments I would have liked to have watched because I would like to see how the crowd reacted and I would like to see how his mother reacted. But He answered and said to the one who told Him, 'Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?'" And He stretched out His hand towards His disciples, says, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." And it's like, boom! It just blew up the codependency in the room. It's like took that grenade, the pin out, and threw it up in the room and just blew it up. Because typical people are going, "What? That's your mother?" [Laughter] Right? All the Greeks, Italians, Puerto Ricans, or whatever, right? It's your mother.

Now, I'm to give you my opinion, and you don't have to agree with us. I actually don't agree with anything I say, but just think about it for a moment. The reason I shared with you the thing about the, the unclean spirit is, he's bringing intense stuff to reveal the work of darkness. And right at that moment where he is bringing important revelation, knocking the door to interrupt what's going on. Here's what I discover. Just as at the moment where a relationship can break through codependency, interruption comes in. So I'm going to tell you what's going to happen. Those who are going to break free of codependency, you're going to see the relationship that's codependent, it's addicted. Like, and you need to get out of it. Okay? I'm not saying you need to get out of everyone. I'm just, sometimes marriages, you can both go, "We gotta heal." Whatever they're saying. In the case where that happens, you're gonna break up. You're gonna walk away. At some point, at some point, that person's gonna have an emergency and end up in the hospital, and you're gonna get a phone call. I'm telling you this, okay? They're going to have a tragic moment to do what? To bring the same kind of thing to pull you out of what God's doing and distract you and suck you back into old patterns.

In this moment, Jesus knew. In this, he wasn't dissing his mother. It was in that moment, though, not being realized, they're innocently going, "Hey, you want to talk to your mom?" It was a distraction to what he was bringing about. So he flipped it to say, "Ah, this is my mother, sister, and brother." This is what he's, "You don't understand me." He's not this. And his mom, so all those years are going, "Oh, it's your mother." It's not true at all. Because when he was on the cross, one of his last words was, "How you take care of her." So that's not even what he's saying. What he's saying is, in this moment, there's a priority that must not be interfered with. And in codependency, you got to understand these addictive relationship patterns. When you make the break, something will happen to pull on your heartstrings. You're going to make the break, and then she's gonna be like, "My dad just died." She went to let you know. Text. "Oh, you want to talk about it?" Just, I'm just telling you, just know it's gonna happen. There's going to be an accident. There's gonna be an incident. There's gonna be some drama to pull you back in. Or you're gonna have a flashback, or have a dream, or you're gonna have a memory, or you're gonna have this lonely moment. And you make boundaries with your family, and there's going to be the, "Well, your mother wants to speak with you." I'm just telling you, guilt, manipulation. Jesus saw the distraction in the moment. And I don't know that all of us could do that. But see, I told you, he disrupted people all the time. Disrupted situations. Disrupted situations.

So the remedy we have to walk into goes back to the foundation, the fundamentals. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength." How do we do that? We love Him because He first loved us. You've got to learn how to receive the love of the Father so that you don't try to look for it in every relationship you enter into.

One of the fundamental practices that I started to have God prompted me with a simple exercise. This is early on. At this time, I'm still single. I wasn't even married. I'm just a hot mess, but I'm learning the love of the Father. And I knew this is what I needed. It was the love of the Father that was missing and making me open to all these battles I was facing. I had a simple exercise that I would do, and I tell people this in my coaching and some of my material. Before I'd run down the stairs and out the door of the condo I lived in at the time, I would sit at the top of the steps just for a moment. Now, at that time, I was so anxious and obsessive that sitting for 30 seconds, let alone five minutes, was excruciating. But I'm like, "I need to learn this." I'd sit at the top of the steps and put my hand over my heart. I'd close my eyes and I'll just say, "Father, You love me." And I quiet myself to receive that love right now. So that, now, this was a sentence. One of the sentences I said, "So that I will not go into this day looking for love from all these people to fill this place in my heart, because only You can fulfill it. Only You can fill that place." And that's what I want.

And so what that did was, it didn't make my day all of a sudden beautiful and loving. You know, "I'm so loved." No, I'd still be a hot mess. But it recalibrated my compass. And then each time, I just keep recalibrating the compass. And I go into the day, and the compass was shattered, smashed on, kicked. Magnets were put next to it. Threw it off. It'd be pointing in the wrong direction. True north was actually going to pointing south. It's like all messed up. Neediness, people-pleasing, busy, obsessive. At the end of the day, but the next day, recalibrate again. Recalibrate again. Because His mercy is new every morning, by the way. And I'm thankful for that. And it would just keep growing and growing.

And some see codependents get so upset. They stay in their addiction because they're like, they can't see any other life. When they get out of it, they become drug addicts that have withdrawals. And it's like, "Yeah, that's that's part of the process. Let the withdrawal happen. Let yourself sit there and squirm. Squirm in that place until you realize how much you're loved." Well, it's been a week. And I can't take it. It's been a month. I don't care if it's been 10 years until you experience you're loved, period. That's where all your battles come back. You don't know you're loved. And you can't rush this. You can't microwave it. It's got to be stewed in a patient process.

You know, and my, my dad's side of the family is Puerto Rican. And Puerto Ricans are notorious for making a superb rice and beans, arroz con pollo. Man, it will knock you out. It's amazing. No, I don't need carbs anymore. So, ah, I miss it. But it is known. Now, the process of the making this food is exhausting because there's this spice called sofrito that you got to use when you make it. And there's these peppers. And I remember as a kid, it'd be like a Saturday. My dad's like, "You got to help. You got to help cut the peppers." You're sitting there cutting the peppers, cutting the onions, cutting the garlic, or whatever. And he, you know, sometimes they buy the sofrito, or sometimes they just make it themselves, right? If you don't know what I'm talking about, don't worry. I'll, I'll finish this up in just a second. They spend a whole day on this. And I'm like, "Man, this, I ain't making this ever." I love, I, I loved eating it. I'm not gonna make it because I don't have the patience for that. And that's a lot of what Christianity has. We just want it right now. If we don't want to take the journey, right? They'd make this other food called pasteles. Are these like, um, I don't even know how to explain it. It's like this, uh, it's almost like an enchilada, but the outer edge is made out of this like yucca mixture. And they grind. Oh my goodness. Full day. Full day of work, right? Just to make this one thing that you could eat and devour and be done with, right? God has you in that place. Maybe Italians, it's making the spaghetti, or it's, it's like, you know, some special. We live in such a quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. We don't let the heart heal. And you, codependent, you're have to take time to know what it means to be loved. And it'll take as long as it takes.

Jesus says, "You gotta learn how to have a love relationship with God." That's the first place. But you don't love God by trying to do stuff for Him. First John 4 says, "We love Him because He first loved us." So you're loving God as a response to receiving His love. And then He said, "The second is tied into this. You gotta love your neighbor as yourself." This, this word is both command and prophetic. You're gonna love other people as you love yourself. You're gonna, you're gonna. Now, the command is not to love people more than yourself, as yourself. So it's grounded. It's not this lust, not this rush, not this incessant, reactive people-pleasing drama. It's a groundedness. I will love people. And how I, now, if I ignore myself, I will either become selfish and ignore serving anyone, or I will serve other people to feel better and more loving about myself. Both are bad recipes.

Now, the second seems more impressive. "Oh, it's a servant's heart." Well, not if you hate yourself. So let's get, as if I, as if I, as if I already didn't hit on so many deeper heart areas. Some of you are already pausing. "Oh, it's a lot." Right? This is a lot. I'm glad some of you in the comments are saying this is helpful and you're, you're, you're calibrating your compass, right? So let's get into our parenting. Oh, no, here we go. Oh, Mark's really gonna get. Let's get, let's really get into the kibbles and bits and then the jello pudding pops, okay?

In the Old Testament, there's a priest whose name was Eli. Eli, he was impressive with his work and his position. And he's a codependent dad. So see, this stuff ain't new. This isn't new. This is invented. We just, we just developed, you know, fancy words for stuff, which is good because then we can just, you know, put an understanding to it. It helps us to to start going, "Okay, here's like how I got to heal." But in First Samuel 2:22, it says, "Eli was old. He was very old. And he heard everything his sons did." His sons were seriously dysfunctional. And what he did in, in Israel, how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. Like, come on. There's some intense sex, drugs, and rock and roll in the Bible. It's, it's like, just when you think, "Like, really? This is happening outside the door? Can you imagine that happening in the, you know, the foyer of your church? People sleeping around, laying around, acting crazy?"

So Eli goes and says, "Why do you do such things?" And now, why am I reading it that way? I'll tell you why, because you're going to see what kind of daddy was for. "I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons. No." Don't, don't. It's not a good report that I hear. "You make the Lord's people transgress." Then a man of God came to Eli and says, "Because this is what men of God do, by the way. Men of God call out codependency. Men of God call out this stuff." Because back then, it was just called idolatry. Back then, it was just called not honoring God. And this is what he says, "Thus, thus says the Lord, 'Did I not clearly reveal Myself to the house of your father when you were in Egypt, in Pharaoh's house? Why do you kick at My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling place?'" Here's the sentence: "And honor your sons more than Me." See that? That's why I read the previous thing he said to his sons with a wimpy voice. Because God says, "You honor your sons more than Me." He, he's like, "Please stop." He's not really correcting them. He's not really confronting it. He's enabling it. He's not really dealing with what he needs. He needs to deal with. He says, "You make your sons more than Me." And then he adds to it, "To make yourselves fat with the best of all the offerings of Israel, My people." Oh, so Eli presented himself as though he wanted to honor the Lord. Ha! This is what happens in these kind of environments. The one who is needed has an image he's got to maintain. He's the good pastor. He's the good preacher. And God calls him out and says, "No, you're making yourself fat with what the people are bringing. You're gorging yourself. You're making this about yourself. All you care about is your image. And you, and you honor your sons more than Me." So I'm not falling for it. And this is what happens when codependency gets called out. "I ain't falling for it."

Right now, I'm not telling you to go, you know, into your in-laws or into your parents' home and just start flipping tables because codependency's something that people have to realize. But I'm bringing this for your awareness for you. Because all you can be responsible for is changing you. Now, I've seen parents make the tough calls. I've been through many, many heartbreaking experiences. I've watched the parent where the kids in jail, and the parent didn't just rescue them out. Says, "You're going to stay the night in there because you need to feel the consequences of real life. If I bail you out, you're going to be in a pattern where you feel you're going to get bailed out of stuff, and it's going to create an unloving pattern in you." Because love allows the beauty of discipline. As difficult as it says, where at times you've, I've walked with parents where they've had to have their children, child, and usually grown, more grown into adult years, had to kick him out. "Time to go. We got way too many families that live codependent. They're still living in the parents are paying the bills. You buy the, you get, you get the child the house. They're not paying for anything on their own. They're not treating it right." They're, our society is suffering because of codependent parenting, not allowing the consequences of life to happen. It leads to enabling. We have to allow our children to work through the consequences of what happens. Discipline is a part of love. Discipline is not abuse. Discipline is not to be done in hate. It's an act of love.

But there's a lot of codependency in Christianity. And Christians can be very enabling. Beware, folks. I'm, I'm concerned that Christians are saying they're operating in grace and love, which that's all I'm about. All I'm about. All I'm about. But we also need to be discerning. Am I enabling? Because it can look like love and grace, but you can really be people-pleasing, and you could be really be afraid to rock the boat. I noticed in my journey, I would come into settings where there was not only destructive sin in the camp, there was a codependent, "Don't rock the boat. Don't bring it up." And on numerous occasions, it was actually traumatic for me because I would, in the most loving way I could, call it out. And the eruption that would come back, just the hordes of anger, "How dare you say it?" You know, it's like, "This is really simple. There's deep bitterness and resentment here." Or, "Hey, this issue's been covered over. We really need to let God heal it." And there are times where I'm like, "Look back and I'm like, I should have said it. Should I not have said it?" I had to let that go because we're all learning. And what we're doing. But what I'm not going to do is placate codependency, to wash over sin, call good, you know, evil, and evil good, in the name of love. Ain't happening. Ain't happening. Right? But we're going to create safety. God's grace is here. His love is here. So it's not about punishment. It's about redemption. But a lot of church environments are codependent with the patterns because they not only have dysfunction, they create a culture around hiding it. Families do the same thing. You have the sin and dysfunction, but you have a codependent environment that covers it. So when someone calls it out, it's like throwing a wrench in it. It's like, "But usually what erupts is anger to push it back so they can stay in the status quo." And it creates, it keeps us in a pattern of enabling. So if you look at family drama, family dynamics, I constantly go, "You got to look at codependency." Unless you learn codependency, it's not going to change. Nothing's going to change. So beware of just saying, "Love and grace, love and grace." If addict codependency is there, because then you, you, the manifest say, "Well, how do I know?" People-pleasing, a lot of burden, caring, false responsibility. And there's, don't go their subjects. You can't call stuff out in a loving way. I'm not talking about, you know, shaming people, right? I hope you're understanding this.

What's enabling? Enabling is reacting to a person in such a way to shield him or her from experiencing the full impact of the harmful consequences of behavior. Very simple. It differs. It's different from helping. And what's the difference? It permits or allows the person to be irresponsible. And this is very challenging for codependents to be able to see. So there's lists of stuff that you can, there's, you know, in in books like "Love Is a Choice" or Celebrate Recovery has has a list of things that they put out there. And their recovery teachings. And and many of you that work through codependency, you've been through a program like Celebrate Recovery or AAA or something like that. And you get, you get more awareness. There's protection from natural consequences. There's keeping secrets, making excuses for behavior. And then bailing out. The bailing out, it's the big one. Just bailing them out. Bailing them out. Pay, you pay their debts, fixing tickets, you know, like paying their lawyers off. You know, I'm not talking about genuine help. You know, many families, parents are just very generous to their children. And I pray that I can be generous and and and have a, a legacy to of inheritance for my children that they can be blessed with. That's not what I'm talking about. It's rescuing from consequences that need to be faced. This person. And it creates a pattern of irresponsibility. And then you blame others. And you join in with the blaming. Oh, yes. You know. And so it points to people or other things as the problem. And there's a lot of avoiding confrontation. And I notice in these kind of patterns, it creates a very pent-up anger. A lot of pent-up anger. But they don't, but they don't let that anger lead them to, "This is dysfunctional. And I'm not confronting it. And I'm not making changes." And so there's a lot of, even the giving of money is out of guilt. It's not out of like, thought-through love, just feeling bad, you know. There's threats that never get followed through of. And you do things for the other person that they should actually be doing themselves. And so this is, this is why we remain in these codependent patterns.

Now, when I do marital coaching, codependency is in a lot of marital issues and problems that need to be brought to the surface. And what I often do, I'm not saying I do this every time. A couple will come to me and say, "Do you work with couples? You work with marriage?" And do. And when I begin the process, I go, "Let me just work with the guy for a little bit." Because I'm a believer that what God does in the man will echo in his leadership and in his humility will echo through the home, right? It's not that I won't work with the wife. It's that I'll go, "Let me just start here." Because I want to, a, work on his heart and areas that he brings into the marriage. And to want to like, uproot codependent patterns. And then integrate discussions. And then maybe I'll work with her. And so because many times we come for marital counseling, we think there's a technique we need to learn in working with each other. Well, what if you're codependent? You're just going to like feed this addict pattern with neediness with each other. So what I want to do is I want to take your radar off of your spouse and bring you just into a place where it's you and God. It's not about your wife right now. Or if I'm talking to the wife, it's not about your husband right now. Let's talk about you. How you feel about yourself. How do you feel loved? Your relationship with God. Your history and your journey. Because we need to rebuild is how you feel loved and how you process being loved. And start to deal with you, rather than going, "Well, if he or she..." Because that's what we expect. And we expect someone to come in and fix that symptom, take that branch issue. Now, let's get to the root, rather than just, "I don't want to reinforce codependent patterns."

Now, in the church, we need to let go of codependency, big time. Because pastors, your unhealed brokenness, your unaddressed brokenness will hook into all the needs and demands that people pull to your attention. Now, I'm going to say something that may jolt you a bit, but not every need that comes to you, you need to respond to. This was hard in my journey because there were things that, hold on, I got to sneeze. There were things that came to me that deep in my heart, I realized, "I, I don't, I shouldn't respond to this." Now, Jesus would. He would appear. He would disappear. He'd be with the crowd. He'd be away from the crowd. It was very, he didn't follow the demands of people. And sometimes he'd say things that sound insulting, like, "Let the dead bury the dead." You know, like, "My father just died. Give me a chance to bury him." Right? In church leaders are taught to just respond to respond to respond. And so if you look at most churches, the people that are in help roles, they do counseling work, they're small group leaders, they are exhausted. But we keep going, "You're doing a great job." And we add on more to their, to their responsibilities. And and really, healthy churches should be taking away responsibilities. Nope. You don't need to do that because that's not going to make you healthy. That's not going to guard your health. No, you don't have to do that. We're going to do this area. That's where you come alive the most. We're going to take this part away. Well, who's going to do this? Well, I guess we're not going to have a ministry in that area. What we need a ministry to do, we do. We. And this leads to other healthier church questions. Do we really need all those ministries in all those areas? Do we really? Is God seriously put on our hearts His hand to say, "This is an area that I want you to have?" Or do we have it because churches are just supposed to, quote, have it?

My biggest recommendation for people doing any one-on-one work, counsel, help, therapy, it's like, whether you're a trained psychologist, whether you're a pastoral counselor or a coach or consultant or whatever, step number one is break codependent patterns out of your life. Telling you, telling you, telling you. And you may not even hear me now. You go, "Yeah, okay, maybe, whatever." Yep. Because you will hook into the outcome of the people you're serving. You're gonna hook the outcome to your self-esteem. And the problem is, when they do really good, it's gonna hit that broken place like a snort of cocaine. And it's gonna rush your dopamine. And you're gonna then serve to get that hit again. That's why we have to be the, the, any work I do with coaches is their health, not on their techniques. Because your best techniques are you just being you, being healthy, being a great listener, and just paying attention to what God is prompting. That's all. Because coaching work for me was the most exhausting thing in my life. And I'm learning over the years how to get healed in those areas of my life to learn, I don't have to work with everybody. And I don't have to respond to every demand. And I, I don't, ha. There was a, even in my pastoring, I said something that was pretty strong. If I told my church, "If you have a 9-1-1 situation, you need to call 9-1-1." I'm not saying don't tell me. I'm not saying don't call me with those things. But I'm saying that I am not equipped to be that kind of person to everybody. I just, I just can't. And so we unfortunately, we've created these large mass systems where we create this machine to care for issues of the heart. And really, what we need is get back to the basics of the smaller interactions, the smaller life, the smaller areas. But you need to, as a help worker, whatever kind of care you're in, compassion care, get codependency out of your life. Or else you're going to need your sessions to go really well. And if they don't, it's going to have a big mark on your self-esteem and how and your identity. No, it's, it's not, you know, nothing wrong with it. It was a great session that went really well. But I gauge it on, "Am I growing in how I'm handling myself and how I'm processing with people?" And I'm not hooking onto those areas that I used to hook onto. And getting free from that in your life.

So I hope this is helping you. In, in final stages of this, I want to give you some, some things in the healing from codependent patterns. I'm just going to kind of give you an overview. Let it wash over your heart. You can write these down if you want. These aren't all the things. These are just some of the things I think are important. If you want to walk in the healing process, you got to first, you got to be willing to see this. I think recognition to me is like the majority of the battle. Because once you see it, your eyes open. And now you start to go, "Okay." You start to see the work that's needed. And you start opening up. Most people are veiled to this. So that's the biggest challenge in this subject. Many people won't even listen to this episode because they don't think it's an issue in their life. So why bother?

Now, when I work with people one-on-one who have codependency, I notice they're often distracted. Meaning they think a subject is a certain subject. They go, "Well, this is what I need to learn. I need to learn how to take my peace in God." And it's like, "You're wrapped up in codependency and you're trying to get peace in God while remaining in this codependent drama." And that's what kicks up your anxiety. So once you're willing to see codependency, it's going to help your discernment. So most codependents don't realize how bad things are. And that's what they do. They minimize, downplay it, deny it, repress it. So when you say, "Okay, Mark, I'm ready." Okay, take a shame-free journey. Shame-free, meaning don't beat yourself up. Don't be harsh on yourself. But be honest. Take a shame-free journey of discovering what areas of your childhood influence these behavior patterns. Because you only know what you know. And it goes back to childhood, back to family, back to family of origin, back to parents. What was unhealthy? I need healing from. What do I need to just recognize? Man, that was unhealthy. You need to be awakened to that.

Number three, I want to encourage you in the grace and love of God, in His mercy. Get in touch with the hurt, the emptiness, and the brokenness of your life that fuels codependent patterns. How you see yourself, how you see your world. Getting in touch with the feelings and emotions that have been suppressed. Sometimes you're going to ask yours, ask yourself, "How does this make me feel?" versus, "How does this make the other person feel?" Because codependents are always responding to what other people feel. Stop. What's going on in you? And those who struggle with codependency, they, they often need healing from past abusive relationships and undeal, suppressed emotions. It was never, you were never taught how to deal with how you're feeling and what you're going through.

And number four, what I think is important is the journey of learning what true love is. Learning what loving relationship really is. What it means to be respected. Codependents, they don't know what normal is. They think love is guilt. Love is not guilt. Love is not feeling bad for someone, that's pity. Love is not lust. It's not an addiction. It's not a rush. It's not constant drama. It's not that high. In fact, I'm like, said, I'm developing materials just on what is love, right?

Number five, begin to pay attention to the health of your heart in a healthy and compassionate way. So that's heart awareness, emotional intelligence, self-awareness. Codependent people don't have good self-awareness. So if you ask them like things that, that they're working through, or you ask them things about their life, they're, they're off their target, off their discernment, off. Remember when James said in the Bible, he said, "Do you have not because you ask not?" So codependents don't know how to ask because they don't even know what their needs really are. And he says, "When you do ask, you ask amiss, that you spend it on your lust." So codependents, even when they pray, they go, "Please pray for Fred that he'll get better." Oh, you ask amiss. You're shooting because you're praying into your addictive patterns. So part of healing your self-awareness is recognizing this codependent, it's not, it's not allowing me to see straight. And you've got to want to be healthy, though. No one can want this more than you. It's got to be your decision. And in this, you got to learn to take responsibility for your own actions, your own feelings, your own behaviors. All right.

Recovery from codependency involves learning to take responsibility for how you feel, what you need to do, and your decisions. And you're gonna, you may have to let go of people that are not willing to take responsibility for their own life, for their own journey.

Number six, I want to encourage you, ask yourself the question, "What is it that I really want?" I ask this question over and over again. "What is it that you want and why do you want it?" And most people go, because they've lived in response to life and they've never connected to just desire what's going on in me. And then when they do, like James says, "When you do connect to desire, you're just always tapping into lusts and addict things." But you need to learn to nurture your your wants and desires in a healthy way. And then what it'll bring up, it'll bring up a sense of unworthiness. It'll bring up a sense of lack of self-worth. "I really, I don't truly believe I even have worth and value." So people will come to me and they will say, "What's the thing I need to do in this relationship? How do I set boundaries?" How do I set boundaries? When someone asks me that, they're asking for a symptom to be dealt with. And it's not the root. You say, "How do I set the boundary?" We always want the how, but we never really address the what and the why. What is it that you want? And why do you want it? Because when you make a firm decision that is it, I am not living codependent anymore. I'm getting healed. I'm letting God work in my life. I'm going to detox these relationship patterns. The how will make itself clear. Because most of the time, it will be, "Nope, sorry. Can't do that. Don't, please don't say that anymore. No, thank you. I'm not going to be manipulated. No, that's not what I'm going to do." The decisions make themselves clear. It's like dominoes start to happen because you get in touch with the why, the what, and why. What is it that you want? What's the vision? Get clear on it. And why do you want it? "The other person to be better." That's codependent. What's the want in your life? "Oh, I want good relationships." Okay. What's the decision you need to make now? Why do you even want good relationships? "Because I have worth and I value and God loves me." Okay. Now the how is going to be no problem. Make a phone call and go, "This is going to take." Nope. And you're going to be left and right making decisions. Now moving in a new direction because you woke up. And people go, "How do I? How do I set up boundaries?" Why should I even tell you? Because you're not going to do it. And you're not going to keep it. I don't, you know, I'm not trying to be mean. But you know, we need to get in touch with this really important question. What do I really want? Stop reacting and start taking action because you have worth. You have.

value now a book that may help you is a book by danny silk called keep your love on. this is basically, uh, taking another angle, look at codependency. you know, connect it, talk it, talks about, you know, connections, communication, and boundaries. but really, it's bringing up a lot of codependency kind of issues and just using different wordings to address it.

one of the things i do like in the book that stood out for me, i had a chance to interview danny to talk about the book years ago, but is the the concept of powerful people helping you to live in being powerful. it's a phrase he uses and brings out that most people don't know they can be powerful or that they ought to be. they're trained from a young age that someone else is responsible for their decisions. but a healthy lasting relationship can only be built between two people who choose one another and take full responsibility for that choice. and that's a key thing. powerful people take responsibility for their life and their choices. and when things, you know, don't work out, they make another decision. they make another choice. and many times we don't realize that the powerful people choose who they want to be with, what they're going to pursue in life, and how they're going to go after it. you decide. and you and and you, you don't wait for someone else to make the decision or wait for god to do something. you take action. they don't control other people. they know it doesn't work. the only job is to really focus on themselves. so that may be a good resource to help give you some language to some areas.

i found love is a choice, you know, to be to be fantastic in the process. i want to encourage you, find consistent, mature help. many times codependents, they'll get help, but then when it gets gets to decision point, they back away. they can't handle it anymore. you need a, it can be an officially trained person. counseling, therapy is great. coaching's great. maybe just a seasoned mentor who knows what they're talking about. and they, and they, and they, they in grace and love, they hold up a mirror and they help give proper feedback. because what codependents need is they need to share something and then have good input back of observation. because your definition of love and healthy relationships is messed up. you know, you may go into trails where it's like, oh, okay, i'm realizing in this, i really don't love myself. and i, you know, recommend a book like god loves me and i love myself. or you realize, okay, how i do relationships is based on a rejection root. or then you go, man, i don't understand god's love. i don't know how to relate to him. so i'm going to recommend a book, experiencing god's love as your father.

i'm going to put all this stuff in the show notes. i got some work to do with some show notes that i'm putting on markdejesus.com. um, i also recommend for codependency books, love is a choice. there's also a book called the christian codependence recovery workbook. so it explains things, then you walk through it. and there's material there too. i can go into further if you go to their website and they have conference materials and things like that that, um.

but some of you, you look back at the narcissism thing and you go, okay, you need healing from that. you may have been, you realize, okay, i was raised by a narcissistic mother. you come to that recollection. just go search that term. there's, there's, there's books. i've read stuff. materials. there's really good stuff. some of it, it, it reveals really intense things, but also just give you perspective on the healing process. makes sense because many, there's many covert narcissistic mothers, many covert and artistic fathers. materials out there. you know, allow yourself to learn. because again, no matter what you grew up with, there is a part of it that feels normal because it's familiar. it's in the family. it's all you know. and that's why a mentor. and most co-dependents don't have consistent mentoring. because a consistent mentor will go on, that's dysfunctional. it's like, wait, whoa, are you going to tell me this is functional? i love them. i'm in love. this is where this is where you're going to change. because then you practice new boundaries out of love and respect for yourself. you won't make relationship changes unless you learn to see yourself in love and love yourself. you won't, you won't. and and loving yourself starts with unconditional loving acceptance. okay, this is where i'm at. i'm here. and i'm still loved by god. and i gotta learn what love is. and i need to make decisions out of love for who god says i am. and then, then you'll start saying bye bye to those dysfunctional abusive relationships. when you go back in, it's a reflection of how you see yourself. you stay in codependency out of how you see yourself. and so that's where i'm going to direct your healing journey.

because number nine, you're gonna have to let go of the addictive compulsion to control, fix, or save anyone. and that includes compassion workers. you don't save anyone. you're no one's savior. you're gonna have to let go of the need to control anyone. and it's very difficult, but it's gonna set you free from these self-defeating, exhausting behavior patterns.

and finally, i'm going to close with this. number 10. codependence, just listen. you need to learn who you are apart from your codependent culture. so maybe your family was codependent and is codependent. do you know how to leave father and mother and step back and go, who am i now apart from them? who am i apart from them? maybe you need a long break. who am i apart from this person? this is the scariest step. because quite often you realize you need, you have a neediness and you're tied to. because maybe you think you'll save it or make it better. now, what i recommend with people i've coached is relationship detoxes. especially people that have dating patterns or or they're going through like a divorce or like, just, you need a relationship detox. a dating relationship detox. like, just spend some time being with you. and just learning to face yourself. because you're just going to keep going. and you're going to have dreams about the other person. or you're going to have, they're going to write you a letter. or you're going to get an email or a text. or something's going to happen. it's going to suck you back in. more drama, more drama, more drama. and you will keep attracting the wrong people. because you make codependent relationship decisions based on how you see yourself. so detox, detox, detox. so you can learn what it means to be loved without without being in codependent patterns.

so i see in the comments section some good thoughts here, good supportive thoughts. tough love is necessary in in healthy relationships with others. any recommendations on addressing these kind of things in love? i really struggle in the love part. so what i get, what i sense you're saying is you're saying, uh, i want, i, i need to be able to do the tough love part of love, but how do i do that in love? well, i will say this. i think the phrase tough love is redundant. because love involves, if i don't speak the truth when it's needed in proper time, i don't love you. that makes sense. so true love is actually in the proper timing. now, that's the part that christians struggle with, is the proper timing. we think we need to speak to every issue. so i would say this, as an outsider looking into a codependent, i've spoken into codependency, i've called out codependency numerous times. none of them made changes. so it showed me two things. one is codependency is broken by self-recognition. two, i'm like, is it my responsibility to call these things out? and so sometimes i'll just mention it, but i don't put the pressure on myself. now, in relationship, speaking the truth, the priority needs to be developing love relationship atmosphere. i'm investing in caring love in safety. and i wait for the organic right moment for certain things to be brought up. that's kind of initial thing. i think the church has been taught often, truth and well, i said it in love. it's, it's not really what it's saying. it's not just speaking the words in a loving manner. it's speaking it in the context of love. there's moments where you earn credibility to speak into an area because you've built relational credibility. you've made deposits, deposits, deposits of love. and usually there's another layer of truth and honesty to get the relationship to move now to the next level. and that, and that's where you have to sometimes it happens and the relationship doesn't move forward. and that's where it's heartbreaking.

thank you for light bulb moment. you're welcome. how do i learn to address issues relationally rather than acting parentally? uh, let go of the parental role. let go of that. i, that's what i took on. i took on having to be the grown-up. the problem was, i was really good at it. i was really good at like 11, 12 years old, like navigating issues with people and family and stuff. and it's like, i didn't need to do that. and i take the burden off. it's not your, you don't have to carry that. so you have to give self permission that you don't have to carry that role. you don't have to fix things. and and just allow yourself. this is what i do. allow yourself in settings to just see it as a movie playing in front of you. now, what i do is I see the movie playing in front of me. and then I go in. and now I'm in the movie. and then I'm wearing the stuff. and it's like, ah, it's making me mad. did I even tell my wife or tell friends, like, I was in the movie again? like, what are you talking about? because that's, that's learning to to love people. but it's like this, the situation there. and I don't have to immerse myself. empathy doesn't mean I have to immerse myself in it and solve it and get all deep into the swamp of it.

I'm working on new friendships. I live in a mountain canyon where everyone knows everyone. you said, I live in a mountain in a mountain canyon. I was like, oh my goodness, that's amazing. is that the Montana? are you the one from Montana? it sounds amazing. but you're like, where everyone knows everyone. I know, I get it. what's a graceful way to tell people I don't feel comparable if I don't want to associate? um, grow some big trees. grow, put some fences in. install some fences. that'd be, that'd be really, really great. uh, I value my privacy. I actually, you know, I, I value alone time. I value my privacy. and I, I, I guard that for my family too. so, um, yeah, it's okay. it's okay. you don't have to be in the gossip world of everybody in your neighborhood. to avoid a woman with extreme dysfunction and get on the nicotine gum. I'm doing the, I'm really busy. I'm doing, I'm really busy. taking that's fine. that's fine. you know, I had somebody I was talking to who, um, they, they spent a lot of time in their front yard doing it. the problem is, is that that's their relaxing time. and neighbors come by, come in and just start talking. and just don't have any boundaries. it's like, I try to tell them. I try to tell them. I try to tell them. you know, and they just keep coming up, keep coming up. what do I do? just yell at them? you know, I'm like, well, here's something you could try. put on a really good set of headphones and play like your favorite podcast. play your music. and when they're coming through, just act really busy. it's kind of funny. and he said, hey, it worked. [Laughter] you know, I'd have a little fun here with you. but, um, you gotta value your journey. and a lot of times people don't get the cues. and, you know, they don't have any boundaries. um, for me, the part of the alone time, I, I like personally. I have a very, I have a great deal of alone time, more than than what I see in other people. I've come to peace with appreciating it. and I enjoy it. now, I couldn't stand alone time because I was so tormented. and I didn't like myself. and I was so spinny in all my thoughts. and that's one of the, the greatest beauty of my journey. whether god uses me to touch millions of people, whether I'm heavily resourced, whether things go in these amazing, whatever directions. my greatest treasure is waking up in the morning and being able to cultivate peace and being content when alone. I could sit at the fire, my little fire pit that I put together in the evening. and I can enjoy the solitude. and embrace the love of god. you have no idea how much of a miracle that is. but that's 15 years in the making, folks. so anyway, yeah. and I enjoy it. and I love it. and it makes me a better husband. and makes me a better person. when my wife sees me out there, she's like, he's getting filled up. he's getting filled up out there. on my way to becoming a powerful person. excellent, excellent.

glacier, you're six miles from the entrance of glacier national park. that's amazing. that's amazing. although my heart goes out to you. I'm sorry what you wrote there about the incident and income issues. I just pray for you that this will be a time of healing. you might be where you are because it's a time of healing. and maybe it's just a, um, this is a time for recovery. and that's going to take time. it's a time for you to love yourself. and let god heal those areas in your life. so I just pray in the name of Jesus that all those listening to this and taking this in, they be encouraged to be loved. it's true love that we need. your loving acceptance, your patience, your kindness. the truth comes to us, but we're not beat up and condemned. we're built up. and coming out of codependency means built up. who you are, you have worth and you have value. you're worth more than what you tolerate in your life. and I pray that that sticks with you. if this has been a blessing to your life, thank you for staying with me. those of you stayed with me, take this, watch it through, listen to it, let it work over your heart. and I'll see you all in future episodes. God bless you.