Transcription
You've probably been told to run tempo, but no one agrees on what that even means. One coach says it's marathon pace. Another runner says it's between zones two and three. And then there's the internet where tempo somehow overlaps with sweet spot, threshold, and the mysterious gray zone. No wonder training feels like a guessing game. Here's what finally clicked for me so that you can run at your best time.
In this episode, you'll learn the definition of tempo run that actually works in the real world. how it differs from gray zone running, V2 max intervals, and aerobic based training, when to use tempo runs for 5K versus marathon training, the hidden danger of tempo runs that most runners miss, and a free download to start doing tempo runs right now.
To help me with all this, I'll be joined by Mike Trees. He's an ex-prunner and triathlete, now online coach to thousands with half a million followers on Instagram. I'm Darren Dake, run coach and human lab rat with 30 years of running data experience. I've chased sub3-hour marathons and a 10-hour iron man so that I could figure out this whole tempo running thing. All so that I could help 10,000 self- coach runners just like you get 1% better each day. Let's get into the episode.
So, it tends to come in base training uh or early in the race preparation period where I'm just getting them used to running fast, but I still want high volume of training going. And if we go too fast, we we end up losing a lot of the the volume of the overall training we're trying to achieve. So, uh a tempo run comes definitely comes into the 20% hard training if we have an 80/20 rule. Uh and and we could say that it is part of that block. Uh it's if you want to use uh threshold as a as a definition of building lactate, it's a sub threshold. It's an aerobic run. Uh it's sort of the top of zone two. people like to use that zone. It's uh MAF maximum aerobic uh pace if we're using MAF. It's probably even a little bit beyond that. It could even be technically just touching the gray zone. I mean, it's it's such a gray area. It's a it's an area that we're pushing uh and we're we're trying to maintain it for a set period of time, but we we're finishing feeling strong. And I think people can overengineer it and say your heart rate's too much of this. It's too much that this it's just a good solid pace.
>> Let's go right into really what what I want to talk about which is how this is similar to gray zone training. And I know the gray zone is subjective, right? Because the gray zone for for someone depending on their coach is different than the gray zone for someone else. So the gray zone can be doing a walk can be the gray zone or the gray zone can be doing sprints. Uh, but I think generally speaking, traditionally speaking, the gray zone is usually between zones 2 and zones three. It's this this pace that everyone, especially beginner runners, um, like to just slip into because it feels like you're running fast enough. You're getting your heart rate up, but you're also not running too fast. Like, how is it how's a tempo run relate to the gray zone? Is it the same thing? Is basically what I'm trying to say.
>> For me, I I define a gray zone as drifting into a zone you shouldn't be in. That's all it is. It I don't like to say zone 1 2 3 4 5. And when I'm actually working with my athletes, I never discuss zones because we know what heart rate or what intensity they should be working at. So I might be saying to one guy, you want to be in around about the the 150. Make your maximum heart rate about 150. I don't use zone 1 2 3 4 or five. I just talk about a specific heart rate. Or someone who works to feeling I'll say look it for you that's about a seven out of 10 for effort. But a a a gray zone is when I say go for an easy run and it's not really easy, but it's not really hard. It's just that you're feeling good, so you're pushing a little bit too much. Uh and then you've got the gray zone. Or I'm giving you your uh interval workout and it's just not really fast enough. You're not pushing hard enough because you're too tired from everything else and you've dropped down a little bit too much. So uh so I I don't This is where we get lots of arguments on social media. Oh, you you're now telling us to run in the gray zone and you say don't go in the gray zone. It's it comes down to semantics. The gray zone to me really is just running in a an intensity that isn't what I want you to be doing. And so a tempo run uh is good specifically when you're building up for marathons because you need to be working at marathon race pace. And I find a tempo run is pretty good for that. So I could send someone for a 16k or 10 mile tempo run and I say, "Look, you've got a marathon coming up. Let's get you running 10 miles at marathon race pace. It's not actually that hard because you have to roll 26 miles at marathon race pace or you know 42 km. So if I'm sending someone for a 10 mile run which is a 16 km in metric work. Uh they can maintain that pace or they should be able to maintain that pace for the whole marathon. So that's the kind of pace I'm asking them to do. I'm saying look it it's quite a tough pace but it's not too tough that you can't maintain it. if if they're not training for the marathon, we will send them out at their half marathon race pace, but we'll get them only to do, you know, maybe 8 kilometers at that pace. So again, it's a pace that's their target race pace, but uh a little bit shorter on the distance.
All right, if you're wondering how to implement this into your own training, and you're like, Darren, please help me. Don't worry, I got you. I've made a free tempo aka sub threshold 8week training plan that you can get right now. It shows you how to exactly find your tempo, pace using heart rate, feel, or pace, plus when not to do it so that you don't burn out. We got scheduling and programming, etc. Get it at the QR code right here, link below or link in the show notes of your podcast app. Let's get back into the episode.
So, why is it important for a 5K runner to do tempo runs versus why is it important for a marathon runner to do tempo runs? It's less important for a 5k runner to do tempo uh work because they can do their 400 intervals at race pace. They can do 3x1k at race pace. They can do lots of other things to get their work out and it's not such a long distance. For a marathon runner, you can't go out and run the whole marathon distance. So, I can do a whole 5k distance workout in one session and not tire myself too much. Whereas a marathon, I can't say to a runner, "Oh, go out and run 42ks at race pace." uh even or do 42 * 1 1k intervals it would kill them. So we need to do other ways of stressing the body. That's one thing. Another reason is the body becomes most efficient at what it does most. So if I want someone to run at a set pace for the marathon, I want the muscles to get used to working. I want the brain to work it out. I just want you to be comfortable at working at that pace.
With tempo runs comes the talk of lactate, lactic acid systems, lactic threshold, uh, lactose, which is milk. U, my understanding is that it used to be called lactic. All of this used to be called lactic. By the way, lactose is milk. Okay? This has nothing to do with this. You don't have milk running through your your blood. All right? I I thought that when I was like, "Oh, I got lactose in my sense." Like, "No, no, no. That's not it's not a thing, Darren." It's the lactic acid system. And this is we're getting really nerdy here. So if you want to tune out, feel free for the next few minutes if you just want to go to why does this help me as a runner. Uh I just like to know these wordings. A lot of people hear this wording and it gets confusing. So I wanted to clear this up. So there's a lactic acid system. Therefore, everyone called it you have lactate in your system. But now it's actually lactate. You have lactate in your system, but it's the lactic acid system. And it's a lactic threshold test. Hold on. And guess what is actually in your blood? And I'm sure you know this because you're exercise scientist, but you actually have hydrogen in your body and that's what gets released and that actually is what causes the burning feeling and the muscle aching later on. A lot of, you know, people that don't understand how this works, they say, "Oh, the next day I want to flush out the lac the lactic from my system." And I'm like, "That's actually wrong on so many levels." Me trying to be a nerd, but feel free to to go in and tell me where I went wrong.
>> No, it's changing all the time. It's actually I think these days we call it the the gly glyto g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g glycolytic system.
>> Okay.
>> Uh instead of the lactic acid. So that's what the research scientists use. But then I was talking to some some guys a lot clever than me and say look if everyone understands a lactate system why why do we need to sort of keep changing? That's what we use in research but if that's what everyone associates with it. And it's not really the lactic that that gives us the burn as you're saying. uh but actually what we do is when we've found that our bodies actually can reuse the the uh lactate that's built up as energy. So we actually reuse that as energy later on down the line and we're trying to become more efficient at reusing the energy that uh is created. uh and the next day uh yeah so probably the the your lactate levels if you were to take a test the next day uh ideally they'll have reduced they'll have returned back to to normal levels but you have the doms from the damage that's created probably from the hydrogen u particles in the blood. The point is whatever we want to call it it's this lact it it stops it it's it inhibits the oxygen getting through the muscles. This is the essence of it. So if we go too fast when the particles are built up and the lactate is built up in the blood it prevents oxygen getting to the muscles and we want to get as much oxygen uh and we've got this capillary development uh and we need to get as much oxygen into the uh the muscles the working muscles as we can and so that's why we're trying to limit the amount of lactate buildup uh in our bloodstream. Uh and so this is where people like Muffet was was big on saying well we we just got to stay out of that zone and stay in the aerobic zone uh and de do aerobic development. But I think there's a time and place for everything. I think you need to work a little bit into that zone as well to become more efficient uh at adapting.
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I found out that tempo runs were really valuable, especially if you can get in the right uh I know you hate the zone, in the right heart rate where Yeah, it's basically where you're producing just a little bit of lac lactate. Um, and honestly, the only way to know that is by doing the lactate uh monitor testing where you do the blood pricks, which uh they're expensive. One, two, you need to pretty much be either on a track or on a treadmill. You need to have someone else do it for you. Only pros have access to this. So, this is why we do feel, this is why we do uh pace, and this is why we use heart rate. Um, and I'm in the zoneish. I'm going to get myself personally, I'm going to get a l a lac lactate test done, lactic threshold test done. Uh, I want to get one done probably in the beginning of the season and then closer towards racing so I can tighten up my heart rate zones and then I use those heart rate zones when I go to race. So, um, they're a bit expensive, but it's more realistic. We talked about V2 max test. I got one done in my life. I'm never going to get another one done. My V2 max is deteriorating as I age. I'm not I don't It doesn't do anything more for me. So, um, I I'm interested in certain numbers because I I'm a nerd like you are. This is where, you know, Kreb cycle and all that gets really interesting. So we'll save that for another podcast.
>> The the the simple thing is with the lactate when you're talking about numbers is you've got the 2 millm mole of lactate in the blood uh and the 4mole. These are two zones. So the classic lactic threshold that people talk about which is between you know uh zone 3 and zone 4 is usually where the lactate is around about 4 millles of lactate uh in the bloodstream. uh and the 2 millm mole zone is your fat burning carb burning boundary or threshold. So that could be L1, LT1 and LT2. So LT lactic threshold one is at first turn point where you turn from car fat burning to carbohydrate burning. So this is why you need to do a lot of easy running in that level because that's what you're trying to do is become more efficient at fat burning. And the formula mole level is the threshold you're talking about which we're trying to deflect that curve a little bit to the right so we can run more at a quicker pace aerobically without building up lactate in the in the bloodstream. uh and again as you said you would go into a lab or you on a treadmill and have finger pricks every 3 minutes. You pick up the pace and find out where it is.
>> I personally actually subscribe to a little bit of a theory and breaking down the tempo run. So I like being granular. I like complicating things and I look to break a tempo run down to a slow tempo, a mid-tempo and a fast tempo. And what I base that on is uh the slow tempo is between my current half marathon and marathon pace. Mid-tempo is between my uh half marathon and 10k pace. And then uh slow sorry fast tempo is between my 10k and 5k pace. And the fast tempo is actually closer to what I think more people what you would say is 60 minutes what you could sustain for 60 minutes. I never personally understood that because I'm like I never run a 60-minute race. Like I don't I my my 10K time is 30 anywhere from 36 to 38 minutes depending on how fit I am. So I'm like all right 60-minute race my half marathon is 122 you know sorry an hour 22 minutes. I'm like what the hell is a 60-minute race? Like that doesn't make any sense. whereas maybe someone that runs a 10k at 60 minutes, there you go, you could run it. So, it really bothered me that whole 60 minute what you can do for 60 minutes. Um, even for the bike, it's always, you know, the FTP to what you could sustain for 60 minutes. I'm like, what the bike race am I doing that's 60 minutes long? Um, so I do the the the slow tempo, mid-tempo, fast tempo as a guide for myself and that helps me. I usually actually only do slow tempo stuff. Um, which is between half marathon and marathon pace cuz that ends up being it it correlates perfectly with Z3. It correlates perfectly with, oh, I could do this for 60 minutes. That felt great. I could tackle another 50 minutes. So, that actually slow tempo and mid-tempo end up being more of what I should be in, but I always slide into that like kind of 10k pace because it feels good.
When should you not do a a tempo run? And I'll I'll preface this with a quick sidebar story of the downsides of tempo runs. I'm finding out that it takes me so long to recover from tempo runs. Like 72 hours plus, so 3 days plus to recover from even moderate tempo runs, me like slow tempo runs, uh which should be most people. And I just think I'm genetically just but I can recover really fast from 12x400s though. So, you know, 36 hours I'm ready to go. So, it's like I'm naturally predisposed to running fast, which is, you know, fine and dandy, but I if I want to run a fast marathon or run to run a fast half marathon or even 10k, I need to start doing tempo runs. I've learned to be very careful about when I prescribe them.
Well, now the the thing is with tempo runs is the classic is you send two guys out for a run together, their mates, and they're always just trying to half inch each other, one guy a bit quicker than the other, and just test how fit they are. they end up doing a tempo run for an easy run the whole way around with a sprint at the end. Uh, and so you obviously you don't want to be getting into these sort of runs when it's an easy run. The the thing with a tempo run is why you shouldn't put too many in there is that they feel great for some reason when you do them and you finish you feel great. You got this buzz, the endorphins are flour flowing, but you you I tend to find that I don't sleep as well afterwards cuz I'm a little bit more tired than than I feel. I don't feel that tired at the end of it. But actually, you've done quite a bit of hard work. Uh, and I think people don't realize how fatiguing they are and then do another hard session too close after them. So, I would I generally after tempo run will have two easy days before giving someone another hard run. Uh, and then obviously it's an older athlete. I might even give them three easy days. But, uh, you just got to be careful with with how often you you introduce them into the training and make sure that the athlete is fit enough uh, and ready to do them. But uh I I like to give time trials for races and things. A tempo run is a good substitute for a time trial. Uh, you know, you can it's a little bit easier. The time trial allows you a time trial is pretty much race pace, but in training conditions or you're trying to get close to it, a tempo runs a little bit easier. So uh sometimes I might give a tempo run to someone who's nervous about a time trial and nervous about failing. I'll say a tempo run, they don't feel quite so stressed out. Oh, I can achieve that because there's no strict boundaries around it. So again, it's knowing your athletes and and how you work with them and and again it comes out of terminology. Again, it's quite a complex area, but uh and it it's difficult to get it all through in a podcast because there's so many variations.
>> Yeah, you you actually touched on um the the fatigue and the recovery needed. And I actually saw a graph from uh Training Peaks. I think it was training peaks and they showed the glycogen depletion from a tempo run versus from an interval let's call threshold of V2 max um session V2 max building like a a 12x400 or even uh uh 4x5 minutes at 5k pace that's an interval run versus a 30 or 40 minute tempo run that's around your 10k pace the amount of glycogen depletion was like 30% more then even though it even though one you feel better and two you ran slower, but you did actually more work as you said. So, you need more recovery time because you depleted more glycogen, but as you said, exactly. People come back after 48 hours and they go do another workout. So, then you deplete glycogen even more and you keep coming in in these depleted glycogen um states and then after 2 3 weeks, 4 weeks, you're burned out.
Again, if you want to up your tempo run game, I've created a free tempo aka sub threshold 8week training plan that you can get right now. And as a bonus, you'll get signed up to my email newsletter where you will automatically get deep dives just like this episode and more. V2 max, long run, strides, mental fitness, etc. sent straight to your inbox in 5 minutes or less each week. But tempo runs are putting the cart before the horse. Before you get there, you should really understand what threshold running is and how to train it properly. I did a deep dive on that in the episode right here. Click the link below or link in the video description or show notes. Peace.