Transcription
José Campos, good morning. Good morning, dear Carlos. How are you? Delighted to greet you and my respects to all the audience and colleagues there on the floor. Well, we wanted to take advantage of your knowledge in this area, José, for you to enlighten us a little regarding the statements of the President of Brazil, Lula da Silva, please. And the statements are from every point of view intolerable, and especially from someone who called himself a representative of social causes, of the poor and oppressed, it turns out that scratching the skin a little revealed his bandeirante spirit. Because the war against the Triple Alliance, what he has stated, that Paraguay invaded Brazil, then Argentina and Uruguay, does not align with historical truth, because the War of the Triple Alliance is the only conflict in the world, in history, where in an agreement, the secret treaty that should have remained secret, as Viscount of Rio Branco and Imperial Chancellor and creator of Itamaraty, José Antonio da Silva Paranhos, had said, "This treaty shall remain secret forever and ever." Never has there been a treaty where the allies divide a country, impose war costs on it before going to war, a year before the war. And when it is known that the project already dated back more than 6 years before 1857, that in the first place, to debunk the fallacy that Paraguay invaded Brazil first. Then, secondly, when the war against the Triple Alliance occurred, Paraguay had a treaty of mutual alliance with Uruguay, and that precisely initiated the casus belli, which is called a cause for war, the invasion of Uruguay as Brazil did in the Melo valley in the north, right? When the caudillos were from Rio Grande do Sul and said that the Uruguayans were invading their ranches, it was simply a pretext for the start of the war against the Triple Alliance, which was already fully established. As we know, 10 years earlier, in 1855, Brazil already sent a war fleet, which I documented in a video here, under the command of Admiral Pedro Ferreira de Oliveira, and Paranhos himself was here in 1858, long before the war, to sign a project, a treaty where it already stated that the Apa River line was the limit that the empire accepted. Not recognizing the White River as we maintained, which is the entire state of Mato Grosso. So, it is a fallacy, apart from this spirit that says, precisely, it does not guarantee that more than 1 million Paraguayans lost their lives so that we would have the right to see our flag fly independently. It does not say that in that treaty all of Paraguay was divided and that we would have disappeared if it weren't for the public shame of its publication, which allowed us to retain this small piece of territory that we have. It does not speak of the war debt that 100 years later, it expired, and we were still paying until relatively recently, until the government of Getulio Vargas, when out of shame, he condoned the debt here in '41. It does not say that Paranhos came and stole all the national archive from his private collection, which came to be called the Rio Branco collection, and was at Itamaraty until the 1980s when Hipólito Sánchez Quell managed, through revolution, the return of a few documents. It does not speak and says that the occupation troops plundered from the first to the last house, including the cemeteries. It does not speak and says of the distribution of children. Uruguay alone took more than 400 children who were distributed like puppies, you know, when they have litters, look, this one for you, this one for me. All of them were distributed like that. It does not speak and says of the total decapitation and that they remained as the great landowners, like Carlos Casado, just one family, they owned more than 1 million hectares. That is to say, it was a total war of extermination, and it does not speak or say that the legionary government, the first decree it issued was to remove López from the law of God and of men. It does not speak and says of the burning of the hospital by the national hero of Brazil, the Count of Eu, son-in-law of Pedro II, the hospital of Piribebuy with 500 people, including nurses, who were burned alive, and the murder of 3,500 children at Costa Ñu. President Lula does not speak of that, then. There is more, excuse me for interrupting you, because there is also a too important element that goes to the essence of Brazil's expansionism, which cannot be historically ignored. Now, what I want to understand is why the president and candidate for president again in Brazil has this need to address history in this way, when even during his government he showed himself to be in favor regarding certain issues concerning Paraguay. What is the need today to defend and invest [clears throat] more in the Armed Forces and resort to that part of history? Very good question, dear colleague, regarding what you say. In the first place, Lula may have had social sensitivity in his international policy with reference to Paraguay, the 500 kV line, the Carmelo Peralta bridge, a series of actions, but scratching a little here, the one who spoke was not Lula, his heart spoke. His heart spoke here, and in this equation, I don't exclude Bolsonaro, because when Bolsonaro won the presidency of Brazil, he dedicated his triumph, saying, to my hero and example, the Duke of Caxias. The Duke of Caxias, the commander-in-chief of the Brazilian forces in the war with Paraguay. When he inaugurated his submarines, one of them is named Riachuelo and the other is named Humaitá. Bolsonaro. So, Brazilians in general may be right-wing or left-wing, but you scratch them a little and their bandeirante spirit emerges. That's the truth, their imperialism emerges. So, we must always be careful with that, because as we always say, this is not a historical war, this shows that it remains a living concept, and that is the dangerous part. José. I'm going to see, there is no possibility. No, his unconscious finally betrayed him, because that is what he really thinks, and it is very much there, and it is what he really said, because there is no mistake here, he knew very well what he was referring to. Totally. That is what, precisely, agreeing with you, Lula did not speak here, his heart spoke, and as I tell you, I don't exclude Bolsonaro from the equation, who dedicated it to Caxias. The Brazilian, right or left-wing, when you scratch them, they are bandeirantes, they are imperialists. My dear José, how are you? Juan Pablo greets you. I also think it's important that you don't limit yourself only to one political actor, but include both in that process. Do you think it's also a bit due to an idea of how Paraguay's political situation is regarding the economy and regarding this prominence we are having? Of course, delighted to greet you, Pablo, of course, and I also include Milei, because Milei's main reference in everything, whom he names, is Domingo Faustino Sarmiento. Sarmiento this, Sarmiento that, and Sarmiento because he had become famous regarding Paraguay. Because he was the one who had raised the famous banner that it was necessary to kill even the fetus in the womb of every Paraguayan mother to annihilate that civilization that was born amorphous to us, right? So, this is the concept that we, the War of the Triple Alliance, continues to be a living context and idea, not historical, but alive, and as you rightly say, today the government of the Republic of Paraguay attracts the main investments, an immense migratory current of working people, of companies, and that, even currently, makes that right-wing, both Brazilian and Argentine, nervous, that spirit of worship that cannot yet tolerate that a sovereign Paraguay, with its nationalism, with its values, with its faith in Jesus Christ, is so firm and continues to be a beacon of light for the Rio de la Plata and for America in general. No, no, engineer, don't ask me later. A couple of concepts that, as they are, José Pedro Ferreira greets you. How are you, dear engineer? Delighted to greet you. But it has always seemed to me. My, my, I wanted to understand what Lula said, and I suspect that at some point, the military usually have what are called war hypotheses. So, to justify why Brazil has to arm itself, they would have to say, but who can attack Brazil if it is so large, much larger than Argentina, Peru, Paraguay, all its surroundings, and in an intercontinental fight, whether with the United States or Russia, it wouldn't have much of a chance either, right? Or will they reach that point? I think some similar questioning must have existed before for such an aberration of discourse to be unleashed. Of course, yes. So, in reality, I am not an expert in Brazilian history, but it is a topic to try to understand them and look a bit deeper. Now, what I don't understand about Lula, mainly, and other Brazilian leaders, is why they cling so much to the sad and bad part of the history of the Empire of Brazil, which is not the history of the Federative Republic of Brazil, and they want to inherit the part of the genocide, the part of the bad things that the bandeirantes did and that certain elements of the Empire did at that time, and try, since it was no longer that, since the Empire did that and not the Federative Republic of Brazil, why don't they try to detach themselves from it? Because the Federative Republic of Brazil, among the antecedents for why they finally achieved their independence and why they stopped being an Empire, was largely thanks to the war with Paraguay, as they call it. There, they experienced for 5 years, because they thought it would be a walk in the park, for 5 years they experienced what republics were. They experienced, they strengthened ties, they saw that there were other solutions, and besides, they were economically torn apart. And besides, they had promised the slaves that they would be freed. They had an army that could be renewed every month, because they could buy as many slaves as they wanted and keep sending them to die against us. So, that type of consequence or antecedent of Brazil's independence, they can somehow say, "Thanks, Paraguay." Or, I think they have to detach themselves and at some point have to assume [clears throat] the responsibility or the consequences or ask for forgiveness, but empires don't want to ask for forgiveness until they stop being empires. Regarding what you did in the events you pointed out, I'll add one more, which is the burning of Valenzuela, of the Valenzuela mines, which is a somewhat little-known case, where it was practically all women, to show the baseness to which the army of the Empire of Brazil reached at that time. Of course, with regard to what you say, dear engineer, in the first place, because President Lula said it, the issue is clear that in a political context, socialism and the PT have been accused of weakening the armed forces and leaving them in the dust. And in an attack of condescension to try to please the families and all the associations of retired military personnel, he spoke of a real hypothesis with a case of who would imagine that Paraguay would attack Brazil. That is, on the one hand, what we can see in a protocolary way, but in the depths, what he spoke was his heart. Secondly, when you mention hypotheses, you know better than anyone that they have hypotheses of conflict even with the total occupation of Itaipú in case of a revolt or a strike, or even that, as engineer Enzo de Bernardi describes well in his monumental work "Apuntes para la historia política de Itaipú," which is the total occupation of Itaipú and a security strip of almost 80 km from the dam in case the Itaipú facilities are compromised, for example, they have everything foreseen, and regarding Brazil, that even political currents can change. Remember that Itamaraty has such autonomy that we cannot understand that, just like the Lusitanian Empire, just like the British Empire, Itamaraty is not guided politically by the currents of governments, but has a path traced for centuries, and even though the Empire has fallen, as you rightly say, the direct consequence of the war against the Triple Alliance is the fall of the Empire, but remember that Paraguay also ratified the treaty of 1900 in which it loses the rights to the headwaters of the Paraguay River, Laguna Castillos de Mandeore, Gaiba, and Uberaba, and also during the Republic and democratic governments, military governments have always had the same imperialist criterion with respect to Paraguay. José, [laughter] I want to ask you, I want you to answer me with a single word, thanking the people who have shared this with us this morning. When Lula says that Paraguay invaded Brazil, is he lying or telling the truth? No, if we are to speak exactly, the first to, let's say, seize a ship is Paraguay, it seizes the steamship Marqués de Olinda first here in Asunción, in November 1864, and to guarantee its safety, it preemptively occupies the forts of Corumbá, Coimbra, and Albuquerque, and Dorados, right? In Mato Grosso, which were, nobility obliges me to say, also the arcifinal limits of Paraguay, because Dr. Francia and Don Carlos always maintained that the line of Tordesillas and the Treaty of San Ildefonso, and consequently Coimbra, Corumbá, and Albuquerque are under Paraguayan jurisdiction. And when Santiago Peña on more than one occasion, even in an international forum, speaks of the genocide of the Great War, is he telling the truth or lying? Of course, he is telling the truth. So Lula will have to and others will have to deal with this because that reality cannot be hidden. Of course. And today, especially, Carlos, more than 1 million Paraguayans bled so that we could have the right to see our flag fly independently. Our Marshal, when he was alone facing a firing squad, José Aguiar, his aide-de-camp, there were two against more than 50, they killed him before his eyes. Correa da Câmara himself says, "He was a dictator, he was killed before my eyes, we maintained a prudent distance, with 15 surrounding him, and he was killed before my eyes, they knocked out his teeth with a rifle butt." That does not guarantee what he says: "The fingers, each one took a piece of the dictator of Paraguay, that was never seen." José, what should be the position of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in this scenario? I believe it should make a formal declaration evidencing and safeguarding Paraguay's integrity, not a protest note because it is not warranted; it was a private statement made in a political context within a political campaign, but it should make clear Paraguay's position that it does not accept such an insult because it was an affront not to us today, it was an affront to all those heroes who shed their blood for our homeland, to win or die, the war of Cerro Corá, it is an insult to them. José, I want to understand why the silence of the executive until now. And if it has to do with these insistent efforts regarding attracting investments. They don't work Saturdays and Sundays. No, sir, no, [laughter] no, not like that. I hope that's not the case, Don Mario. There is, there is, I do not agree, I greatly respect the position of the national foreign ministry. But I can assure you that Brazil would never allow any president of any country to say such madness against its country, nor, nor, nor. It's the current situation. But now, what happened with Cormileli, they already summoned their ambassador in Argentina, to return, to come. Of course, they would never allow it, and yet we have to be insulted by everyone, and we have to remain silent by virtue of projects, agreements, treaties, investments, that there may be more, and we don't even know if, immediately after this declaration, they have moved diplomatically, we will be more flexible in this, but say nothing, that is, here one must have a lot of respect, but this memory cannot be left for me, because it is not about us, it is about the memory of so many compatriots, it is about the flags that are in the Ministry of Defense, they accompanied me here with a Yes, sir, José, thank you very much, I would love to keep talking about this, but I will close by using what an ex-colleague of mine also wrote to me this morning. And I will take advantage. She says, and to think that now it is the Brazilians who are invading us. Mmm. How many Brazilians forming lines and lines, even in the early morning hours, to manage some type of permit, residency, to come and live here, use our education, use our energy, use our healthcare system, flee their country, that's what Lula should be worried about. Of course, totally agree, right? But it is, but I repeat, unfortunately, right and left, when you scratch them, the bandeirante emerges. A hug, José, have a nice day. I greet the table and all the audience. Goodbye, goodbye, see you later.