Cracking the Code of Reality - DMT Lasers with Dan Goler

Okay, so I am here with Dan Gooler, who is the man behind the DMT laser theory, which I covered in my recent video, which was titled, uh, "DMT with freaking laser beams," and I'll leave a link to that video in the description below. And if you haven't seen that, I would advise you go and watch that first, because it'll set up a lot of the background for this discussion. But I'll just give a quick recap. So Dan's claim is that by using a specific type of laser, projecting a certain pattern on the surface and then smoking DMT, a certain phenomenon occurs which is completely unique in the world of psychedelics. And that a kind of programming code language appears as a result of the interaction with the laser. And that the conclusion for this, um, from seeing this revealed code, is that reality is a simulation. And maybe—forgot—time can get into what you think is behind that simulation.

Now, in my video, I disagreed with this theory and pointed to several occurrences of similar subjective effects, and I offered an explanation for what I think is occurring, which is just a variation of common psychedelic effects. Uh, Dan saw that video and asked for the opportunity to respond, so here we are. And Dan, thanks for making the time. As I mentioned in my video, I do somewhat admire your enthusiasm for this kind of exploration, even if I do disagree with your conclusions on it. I just think there are a few, probably different ways that we could come at this. But maybe if a good place to start with is, um, if you could just introduce yourself and then maybe just go into what you think I got wrong in my opinion of the phenomenon that you're describing.

Sure. So first of all, thank you so much, Rob. Uh, I'm honored to be here. I really did enjoy your video; it was very cleverly done, and I left a lot to be quite honest, uh, and um, yeah, so I guess, um, a little bit background about myself. Uh, as we tried to record this conversation before, and I said it, but I'll repeat myself obviously, um, uh, I am, uh, if if we're looking for the connection between me engaging with these deep questions and my current, I guess, job, if you if you call it, uh, as a director, producer, and editor of, uh, you know, video content and uh, film, it's somewhat, uh, not directly related, um, but um, I guess in the deeper connection of the seeking for the for the for ultimate questions or things like that, this is something that accompanied me my whole life. My grandfather was a physicist. I started, uh, getting into physics quite early. I didn't continue with that trajectory because of different things that happen in life, but uh, the the impulse to seek the deepest, uh, questions and an is something that always drives me and animates me in every single thing that I do in my life. Um, so I guess there's a there's a connection there, um, and if if you want, we can get a little deeper into the specifics of, uh, what caused me to even venture into this direction of investigation, but I think, um, to be respectful of the time that we have, uh, maybe let me just address the direct thing in the video; we just, you know, we can just get this out of the way, and we can have a discussion as we will. So the discovery is that, like you said, uh, if you project a diffract laser, uh, on a surface, uh, what seems to be happening is that when you're on DMT—which now we know also works with a certain dosage of mushrooms and on Ayahuasca—I'm sure there's probably other substances that opens that possibility as well, but these are the ones that I know work for sure, um, you see code writing in surfaces. Now, this is both—the the uniqueness of the observation is how quote-unquote objective it is, and we can of course discuss what that might even mean in the context of being on on a psychedelic drug, um, but uh, it seems to be the same for every single person who sees it. And again, you know, there's every single thing that I say because we are here; we're basically on the cutting edge of understanding. Every single thing that I'm going to say, like the thing that I just said, opens, uh, numerous extra branch questions, like, for example, what I just said, which is like, you know, everybody sees the same thing. The first thing it comes up is like, how do you know? How do you know everybody sees the same thing? Did you do—do you have a way that reads everybody's mind? All all of these are fair questions, uh, but this is why my videos and the way that I view my videos and my work, uh, they're more an opening of the discussion. This is not to, uh, for a second go back on what I believe is going on, because I am pretty convinced, and of course we can discuss why I'm so convinced that this is in fact the case, but the way that I view the project is it's more of a of an opening of a discussion, of a conversation, of the flavor that you and I are having right now, so we can all together arrive at what we think is going on. So that that's the way that I would frame it. And the way that the the one thing that I feel that is being, uh, that was not, um, put enough emphasis on in the video, uh, is the fact that there's a there's a couple of parameters that are very necessary for the thing to work. One of them is that the laser has to be diffract, so that that's a that's a that's a must, which is something you didn't do in the video. You put a laser pointer, which I'm even mentioning in my videos that, uh, laser pointer would not work; not sure why that is, but this is actually a big data point there. Uh, it is—you can refract it through water, but it has to be diffract it first in order for it to be—the the water—the the refraction index of water seems to add something to the how stable it is, but it does not work without the diffraction. So these things are very technical, uh, but and specifically to address your, uh, your idea that you will you will outline yourself in a moment, uh, of why the laser—you think it's just a, you know, it's one of the phenomenon that we see on DMT on a regular basis when there's certain patterns that we observe and it just kind of, for lack of a better term, spills into more of our visual field—the reason that it's not the same is because it is inside the surface, the thing that I'm talking about, and also it has a different kind of quality which we we can outline in a moment, because I want you to respond first.

Sure. That all other psychedelic observations so far that I've seen, uh, and again I'm not placing myself on some kind of a pedestal of, you know, knowing what the truth is about, uh, psychedelics in general, but I have enough of an experience with these things—quite robust experience—to know, um, what is the set of repertoire of archetypical experiences on DMT is, and this doesn't seem to fall into any of these business. So I'll I'll I'll leave it in here and I'll let you respond, and we can continue.

Okay, so I guess what we need to sort of try and pin down here is that you're saying that that something happens that is completely unique to this process, and it does not happen anywhere else. And so I, I, you know, and I think as as I acknowledged within within the video that I did, I wasn't trying to recreate one-for-one, uh, the the, uh, pro—what I was trying to do was sort of elaborate that, um, pattern—patterns, um, you know, can sort of become animated, and then once then viewed—these—once you're viewing these animated patterns through the lens of a of a psychedelic, then they can become something more. So you know, the—I could—there's a number of sort of examples I could use here. So, um, this could be anything that's projected on any kind of screen. I think, when particular when we're dealing with, uh, this kind of cesia of psychedelics, I don't even think it needs to be a projected pattern. You know, often these kind of programming languages can appear just purely as a visionary effect without any kind of sort of input. And they've also kind of is quite common for, you know, these kind of, um, shared visionary effects to appear, um, based on, you know, audio inputs. A very common sort of example of this would be that if you're in, um, you know, in South America and you're in a shamanic setting that as a shaman is singing, people very often report seeing the same kind of ayahuasca patterns—these these shapo patterns. So this is why I'm I'm kind of coming at the angle that I don't think the actual—the the laser is doing really anything at all. So I guess the kind of what I would put to you is like, how how would you sort of state that something—particularly in the world of psychedelics where everything is kind of blended into one—all these inputs and modalities—vision is sound, sound is vision, is feelings, is is, you know, history is lineage, is is all these things—then how would you sort of—you are literally saying that something completely unique is happening that even though it's based upon vision that it's actually not vision, and you're describing something that's kind of within an object, but it's not within an object; it's just something just absolutely unrepeatable except by this specific circumstance. So I I can't claim that I know that it's unrepeatable by any other circumstances; that's that's less of the claim that I'm making, but I am saying, however, and this is—you got us into really the heart of the matter, and I think it is—it is a very complex issue. The reason it is is because it starts touching on our analogy itself, and really that's where if if you want to go to the core of what this conversation is about, it would be about that, uh, that, um, within the frame of how we believe the world is at the moment, under the current scientific zeitgeist, uh, there are a lot of things that make sense, and the cash value of all of these things is always around what is the functional essence of what it is that you think that is true. The way we define—I mean, unless you go like really into like deep philosophical, uh, tenants, uh, really the way that we interact with what we call real in at least in the Western world is always around, okay, what can I do with it, right? If you—the thing you think is part of what we call reality or consensus reality, then then there has to be some correlation between that thing and a thing that I can over here—replicate, because it's part of reality, so it's always there—be—do something with by understanding it—i.e., building some kind of a technology or, you know, moving a thing to—before before we couldn't move. Um, there are a lot of invisible things that we now know are real, um, the most mundane things like magnetic fields and a lot of other things, but notice that in all of these cases, it always starts with the fact that you have—you have senses that can touch on any side of the spectrum of these things, and then we use what we call our intellect to go through different processes. I don't want to say scientific process because a lot of of other things involved if you ask me, but we basically presuppose something, so we conjecture something, and then we test it, and we see if it works. So you know, the whole—I don't know if you're familiar with David Deutsch's work, but that that kind of like Karl Popper's tenant of like, okay, what works, what doesn't work—demarcation lines—all of that good stuff, right? So in that sense, I would I would fully agree with you that the full-fleshed-out saying, okay, we're on board, we get it, you're right; there's something here will only come when we can utilize what I'm claiming to have found to either build something, do something we couldn't do before, or understand something about the world that isn't just part of somebody's impression but something we can actually attach through either mathematics or through other means to the rest of what we understand about the world. And the reason it's so complicated to talk about this just with words is because it all rests on the experience of it, and this is something that currently under how we view the world in the Western world is not part of what we consider to be a viable way to decide anything about what we think is real, because we're so gullible because we fool ourselves all the time, and the whole process of science is to basically, as Neil deGrasse Tyson says, the the to teach ourselves how not to fool ourselves, right? So to that, uh, I would say that the reason that I'm convinced that what we're seeing is real is because of a certain property…

Oh, so let me just tie in that point, so… well, can I can I just pause you there then because because you said quite a lot, and I just want to try so we just can deal with it in bite-sized chunks. Please, please, please. So I mean, two points—I mean, I mean, I wouldn't disagree entirely with with with what you what you said, um, but again, we're talking about a very specific scenario. So I think that those conversations need to be to be had, and I think when we're dealing the world of of psychedelia, then that in itself creates the bridge through these conversations. So those conversations are being had anyway, and this is why I mentioned that the the laser aspect is kind of a distraction because it kind of puts the focus on a very kind of narrow—not to be sort of derogatory—but gadget and says, hey, there's actually something here, and and and it does create this kind of illusion of something exotic is happening, which is actually a feature of the wider, you know, uh, sort of suite of psychedelia. So all that stuff is happening already, and all that those conversations and those doors being opened, it's all happening already, and I think by my concern is that by focusing on the on the gadget, um, it actually kind of takes away from that conversation; it makes it kind of kooky and like as though there's something sort of going on here, which particularly when you looked at in the wider sort of feels like—like psychotic—like myself and sort of, you know, several others have spoken to—I kind of now thinking what this this this is just kind of everyday stuff. So there's that aspect, and then the the other thing I just want to comment on is that, um, I I I would disagree somewhat with this this kind of notion that that you put out that everything needs to have this kind of, um, scientifically tethered cash value. Again, I think this kind of misses the point, and when we talk about things that are important to the human experience, you know, as I said, I just had to go and interact with my children in the the room. You cannot put a cash value on my fatherhood, on my parenthood. You cannot put a cash value on on the love that I feel towards my wife, my children, and that doesn't matter at all. It doesn't mean that society rejects that these things exist; it doesn't mean that we can't have wider conversations around them. And if somebody pulled out, um, a love-measuring laser, I would find them kind of slightly absurd. I think it's—it doesn't really have any cash value at all. So I just just wanted to throw that out there before we sort of again get too lost in in in the weeds.

No, no, and that and that that's a fair, uh, course correction, but I think it also clarifies for me how you think, which is very helpful because we actually align on all of this, and I think all of these things are—first of all, I agree with every single thing that you said, and I even share your concern with, um, introducing things into, you know, the world of psychonauts that actually make a lot of us seem to be more kooky than it needs to be, and I actually share the same sensitivity. And because see, the the thing here is that we have a time restraint, so I'm trying to like address all like very large subjects as quick as I possibly can and try to flesh out the most important things, um, but really it's—you just voiced the exact center that I'm trying to point, um, and that is that everything you said, for example, like you said, it already exists within what we see as psychedelia—like in the psychedelic space. So really at the bottom of that is, do we think that the psychedelic space is just some kind of a very interesting possibility that the mind creates, or is it something that exists independently of us and we interact with it, which is really the the the bottom of this conversation. So the—I'd been doing DMT for a long time before this kind of stuff started happening; I was completely in the physicalist perspective—like 100%. There was no—not an iota of me that considered—I mean, I was playing with some ideas in general about consciousness being somehow embedded in the fabric of reality and all that stuff, but what I meant to your second point here—what I meant by, uh, the cash value to be in a technological way is not that I'm saying I think it should be that I'm saying that most of the Western culture rests on the assumption that we follow the scientific method to things that really matter. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's how usually people kind of cash that out. They say, I I can't know until I don't see something physical that happens. I'm in full agreement with you that human interaction is something that cannot be measured and is just as real as anything else in the universe. The the moments that you share with your kids is a real thing; it happens in the universe, right? And it even drives physical things around itself, but these subjects are just like too deep to, you know, to nail down, and it kind of I feel it takes us away from the subject matter. So let me address your your gadget point. Um, if I would just be presenting that the laser is the full proof of the thing, which in retrospect later I realized—obviously this video was put out two years ago—you can't notice when you don't notice, right? So after people started reaching out to me, this is a point that was mirrored back to me a lot, which is like, why do you think that just because you see this code in the laser it means—means we necessarily live in a simulation? And the honest answer is absolutely true; I don't—I realized later that actually the this—for me personally—what happens in the laser was the the the straw that broke the camel's back for me; there was a lot of other data points that were occurring at the same time.

D—can I—can I just—because I think I think we're going—and I definitely want to go there with you, but I just—I think we need to sort of try and take this in chunks because the—I think what we need to sort of pin down versus is is what is happening in the laser, so because you've kind of thrown out there that it's—this is for you a way of tethering it into a way that you think is going to be recognizable to the Western sort of scientific zeitgeist. I don't know if that's in itself strictly true because as you know, things are evolving within the sort of the sort of, uh, the research space; we're seeing what's been dubbed the Psychedelic Renaissance, so this kind of—that people are willing to explore these ideas as things with happening within consciousness. I think that's happening; it's long—it's a bit long overdue, but it is kind of happening. So I think the zeitgeist is changing, and we shouldn't be too concerned about trying to, uh, sort of make this like something needs happen to stimulate that zeitgeist; it seems to be doing fairly well without the presence of a laser. But I guess what we we need to—I'm trying to get to is—I—are you absolutely saying that that what is happening here is is not—is not what happens anyway? Because it sounds—it sounds kind of—you're saying something different—fine—anyway—anyway within within sort of psych—within psychedelics—with if you were either, you know, stimulated in some way or that it's just possible even just without any form of stimulation that something purely unique is happening as a result of the interaction between this laser, the psychedelic in in your head or or not in your head—again, that's a whole different sort of conversation—or the the psychedelic that you've consumed, let's put it that way. And yeah, is that this is some sort of reality-ripping event that only happens because of this combination of things?

I would say that it shows you a resolution of that space that all of a sudden makes it clear that that space is not subjective; it's not subjective.

No. Okay, so I think that's a slightly different claim then than what comes across in your initial videos, so you can tell me what what you got directly from the video, and then we can we can—but I can also expand on why the specifics of the code I think actually point to something different than what we usually think about psychedelics.

Yeah, sure. I mean, I I'm, you know, I don't think this is, uh, only myself who's having this kind of understanding, because certainly with—there's been some exchanges on on Twitter, and there's been a plenty of comments on my videos, so this seems to be the wider understanding of of what people think is happening and what I'm—what is it specific, so we can nail it down.

Yeah, something—the phrases that that are, um, often touted are something unique; this does not happen anywhere else; this is an entirely unique effect that only happens due to this combination of certain wavelength of laser plus certain amount of amount of DMT equals reality breaks and the and the code of of of this simulation comes pouring through. That's—are you saying—are you saying this is something that you've seen other people, uh, repeat or saying that you saw me say that somewhere?

Um, well, I I I think that was my understanding from your from your video, so feel free to correct me if that's incorrect, but I've certainly seen that repeated throughout the comments on my video, and I think yeah, I I think with—because of of of the way that when you explain this, because you do jump through concepts very quickly, then it can sort of—it it it actually makes it quite, you know, a difficult task to understand what is the absolute claim you're making, which is why I'm trying to like pin it down now. So maybe in your own words, if you can just focus on that claim directly instead of us kind of guessing, because maybe some people didn't even see the video, so…

Okay, so my claim is, and um, so let me let me let me do this by also outlining what is so unique by the in the code—the way that I see—see it, and I'll tell you what the claim is directly. Is that—okay, sure.

Okay, so this is something that I started telling you last time we tried to record this, um, there's a property to things that I couldn't really—when I saw the code—so again, just to reiterate for people—you project the laser, you look at the surface, you smoke DMT, let's say—you all of a sudden see code running in the surface. The code actually inconveniently looks a lot like in *The Matrix*; it looks like, uh, Japanese katakana characters with a mixture of some Hebrew letters. One of the first things that jumps at you is the fact that even with things—things like the alien gray characters, which a lot of people on your channel will be familiar with, they are still pretty blocky in nature; they still belong to a family of things that when you smoke DMT and you see them, you can go, okay, I'm looking at some kind of a stochastic pattern. There's a laser; I'm on the most psychedelic drug known to men; I can totally see how my brain arranges this into something like that. When you see what you see, you have a comment…

I feel… yeah, I just think it's worth pointing out here that I think—with—is great—things—she's not claiming it as a literal recreation of…

Something. It's it's yeah, just just just for the audience, just to make sure that it's U. It it is it is intended to be an artistic representation of an unspeakable language, a secret language. So it's not, and I also say there are some similarities there certainly to the the Japanese writing you describe. A lot of the characters are similar, and and I would agree with you. When I've seen these secret languages, they do have it is this combination of looks kind of Hebrew, looks kind of Japanese, looks kind of computer language. It it these things blend together, but I'll stop there and let you continue.

No, no, again, this is these Reflections I appreciate them because it it helps us correct course pretty quickly. So yeah, so let let me just finish the first thought first, and then we can discuss the details of it.

So sure. I'm saying it to the effect that what we see is the Alison gry language. I know she's not claiming that this is some kind of a language, uh, and it's exactly what I'm saying that if I would just be as I am, um, and I would see that which I never did before actually, I would not think that it means something Beyond me, just kind of hallucinating something. There's something about the observation of what we see in the laser about that particular code that appears that seems to be different, and for a long time I couldn't really place my finger on what is it that difference. So there's a few things; one of them is that it behaves like a thing that has its own special coordinates in the sense that when you see certain visuals on psychedelics, including the stuff that you've outlined in the video you put out about my Discovery, is that when you move your head or you move in relationship to the thing you're seeing in any other way, there seems there seems to be a correlation between where you are and it. In other words, it responds to what you're doing. What you see in the laser doesn't do that, so it seems to be inside the surface, not not on the surface. It's inside; it's almost like you're looking through a window, and it it has the full parallax effect that a regular object would have in that you will move your head around it and it would look like it's actually like staying in its own space.

Mhm. Uh, then the other thing is that when you move the light, which is a big component there, you see that the light is just revealing it; it's not really CH, it's not moving with the with the beam of light together; it's actually remains where it is, and then the light just reveals it like a flashlight.

And the last, can can I just ask so how how would that be be different to the kind of the scenario that I I outlined with like a mobile phone in a dark room?

So well, I'll tell you how because the because the the stuff you talk about actually goes to the core of the Assumption behind it, which is this is mind-made, but the I'm claiming that there certain observations like with the laser that after you see them, it's almost like a a reframing of what you thought was was going on, and then everything else that you see around you after you see that takes a completely different shape. So even the thing with the phone will will have a different connotation in your own head after you see what you see.

Sure, but now now we're talking about layers sort of on top, so I think we we've got to separate out the, and I mean maybe we do, maybe it's not it's not possible to, but I think we got to separate out the the physicality of what is sort of what is happening because a large part of your claim is dependent upon certain physical materials being there. My sort of counter counter claim would be that what do you mean specifically a laser, a very specific kind of laser?

Well, so the diffraction matters. We discovered that the few frequencies work, but but again, the the the the reason that it's so hard to outline with words is because unless you see it for yourself, there's really not much I can, and this is now after speaking to thousands of people online, I realized that only after they see it like fully on full on then they email me back or text me back and go oh, and I go yeah. So there there's there's a thing there with like seeing it that I can't deliver with words because it's based on you actually observing it.

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that, and I think you know this is kind of common of of anything within the Psychedelic experience. There there are it's almost impossible to explain something like any aspect of the DM, even the lowest doses of DMT, to explain that to someone who's never been there is almost impossible, so I get that and I'm not disputing at all that, but in this case there is kind of so I do want to get to this point because it's important for me to outline and then please respond.

The last part I would say that that I later realized how to call it because apparently there's a term for this. In my first video, I came up with the terms epistemologically sound because I didn't know what to say about it, uh, in in the sense that the how you known of it is completely expressed by the observation itself. It's like you just just like you know you're experiencing something without knowing how it happens, and you need you don't need any studies to prove to you that you're experiencing something. It's like the Ultimate N of one that you don't need proof of; it has that property. And I later discovered a term in Anil Seth's book, uh, uh being you; he talked about a term that cognitive scientists and neuroscientists use which is called objectness, and what it's used to describe is a certain uh rigidity of an object that exists in a regular three-dimensional space that the brain build a very large repertoire of correlations with h, and so it's it's very hard to fake, almost impossible to fake. And an example that the uses to illustrate this is that people who suffer from synesthesia they never confuse synesthetic colors with regular colors because regular colors have certain interaction with ambient light light that synesthetic colors don't. So the thing in the laser has this property; it has objectness; it has such rigidity in all the other aspects in correlation with all the other aspects we use to describe regular physical objects; it looks exactly like that in the sense uh that it doesn't change itself according to what you seem to be doing. And when you have I've now done this with 15 people in the room before it was five, the the largest number, and you have everybody looking at the same thing completely coherent because you you know you smoke Sub sub breakthrough Doses and you talk about it, and this is not people who like you know committed to prove these things, a lot of skeptical people as well, and then you have people standing there going oh my God, and then they pointing to the thing and they're like do you see this? Yes, yes, yes, I see this. There's this amazement in people's eyes that is a that is a huge indicator for me that something else is here.

Now, all of that being said, because I want to offer this uh Olive Branch here, all of that being said, if it in fact means that there's some kind of a possibility of light to interact with DMT in this particular way so everybody sees the same thing because I don't know because our brains are just so similar on that level, so be it, no problem. I was never committed to um to first of all, the the whole idea of the simulation was never something definitely I preferred or even liked to be quite honest; uh, this is something that was just I couldn't ignore what I was saying, but this connects to the previous point I was trying to make which is that in retrospect I understand that a lot of the other things are happening that I can talk about if you want uh with the combination of the laser that worked because I didn't land on this by mistake; I kind of aimed at it; I was trying to figure out what would work and then eventually it worked, and even then I was I didn't think oh I discovered this thing; I thought oh I lost my mind because because it was you know what I was saying, and then only when I started showing people and everybody started saying the same thing, and only two years after that I decided okay there's enough here after trying to email a few scientists obviously you know it's a very difficult email to to email; I don't even know how to start talking about this. Eventually I was like let me just put out a video and you know the right people will if they're interested and if there's something really here they will contact me; we'll talk about it, and that's essentially how I went about it. Only after two years of playing with this thing after I don't remember what the exact number was at the time, maybe a little bit over a 100 people that all saw the same thing, including you know people with technical jobs, they skeptical people from Architects to physicists to actually a couple of neuroscientists that saw this thing, then I was like okay I think we need to talk about this this there's something here, and I needed to get to the attention of people that uh you know are much deep more deeply involved in this larger conversation that you're mentioning; that's when I put out the video.

Okay, well, can but I mean I think you think you know there there is a kind of a very simple sort of principle work like DMT is astonishing, so the fact if if you get people together or or or and single and give them DMT and tell them to look at something they will be astonished. I I've similarly I've I've had you know many friends and people I've introduced to DMT and had them look at things and their ja I mean I included a short clip of this in my original video; I was just looking at a at a picture of the Galaxy. I've seen people's Jaws hit the flaw over what this thing is doing, and they all report the same thing: the Galaxy itself will start to spin and rotate and pulse and GL. This is not just like normal py; it's not the same as looking it on say you know like a a recreational dose of mushroom something; it's it has this kind of objectness; it has depth to it; it will sort of detach from the picture, and it's not flowing off; it's not muddy; it's not like kind of mushy or flowing over; it's very precise, ultra high definition, and people's jaw hits the floor. So this again this is why what what you're describing is it doesn't seem at all remarkable to me; it it seems it's a very common effect, and you know this is this is why people like looking at psychedelic art when things happen within the context of what happens and it does have that objectness; it can have very intimate layers to the objectness. I've seen people have um like you know start to have boundaries dissolved between them and the objected thing where they can become the thing itself. So all these kind of you know these effects.

Yeah, yeah, I mean all these I'm I'm not saying, and and this was another thing that kind of popped up in in the comments and maybe this is a kind of a A Fault In the S of the language that that I use, but I'm not denying at all that something you know amazing and meaningful and profound is happening; I'm not just saying it's just you know it's just drugs; I'm far from that at all.

I thought you I know, but I've seen some people who who have sort of comments on just kind of dismissing it. I think this is this is these are something incredible, but again I I just to to pin it down to something that's happening just purely because of this laser I don't think Stacks up at all. So this you know this is kind of really what I'm hinging um L one I'm not I say I I don't think we would disagree at all Dan in terms of bigger conversation need to happen. What does this mean? What does this mean in terms of Consciousness? What does this mean in terms of like what is reality? I think those are are you know conversations that you and I could have probably for hours completely detached from this laser thing, um, but I just kind of again I just feel kind of want to sort of black pined down it like I is is that the kind of the Hill you want to you're willing to that that the laser is kind of doing this because I don't think it is at all.

Yeah, on all the examples you give seem to could only sort of reinforce my own.

Yeah, yeah, so none of this this is I'm in full awareness that being on the receiving end of what I'm saying without seeing it first there's literally I tried like I tried for years now there's until people don't see it there's nothing I can say to you; they will convince you that it's different than everything you just describe because of everything that you said.

One second, and I'm full and I'm with full agreement with you because I know having so much experience with the substance before as well I would have the exact same response as you, uh, and there's simply nothing I can say to you aside from please go try it properly and then let's have this discussion again in a way that you and I want you to reflect back on what you think is different, but it it is absolutely different in how it actually appears even with what you see with the Galaxy and with the phone and all of that stuff.

Um, the other thing I would like to point out is well how would you know that uh because I've seen it now over 300 times, but how would you know it's it's different to to to my experience with with with the poster or with or with with the painting? People who have a lot of experience just like us and they all of a sudden see something that they've never seen before. So now that that's one of them. The other thing I would like to say and this is the reason that you I'm not really that emotionally attached to it is because I'm not coming here to say hey guys guys please listen to my Discovery; it's very clear to me which I don't know if we're going to have enough time today; we can do another talk about it if you would like. I'm going to release soon a video talking about that; there are other things that start happening since I built the laser that seem to be of a completely different kind of thing that after speaking to U I don't know hundreds at this point experienced Psychonauts online, um nobody seems to exactly know what I'm talking about, but I'm experiencing this very coherently, and this is not to say I'm special; it's to say that I know this is happening, even if you want to say it's in my head; it's just way too coherent, uh, but the reason I'm not attached to it emotionally to this whole thing is because it's not about me and me discovering it; it's about the fact that I for me I'm not asking anybody to just adopt it for me; I am over the hump, so I've seen enough to know that this is actually happening to, and I so I know it's just a matter of time before there's going to be more and more and more things pop up for other people as well, and eventually through mainstream science it will arrive at this point of the same understanding. So to me it's pretty clear, so I'm not so much trying to push and force it but to make it available so people can go and verify for themselves and then we can come back and talk about it. And in the beginning I had this uh very uh you know there was always this very emotional thing for me because it is after all I'm claiming this big thing and I'm a person who is very allergic to all all things woo woo and so realizing that I am now on the woooo side for other people and they now have to go and look at the thing until they didn't see it I had this like kind of like thing in my chest and I was like you know it's hard because until they don't see it I'm just the guy saying these things, but now over I don't know how many hundreds of times where I have people you know go through this and they're either skeptical or they're interested but you know they say okay cool, and then when they the moment they see it there's a different twinkle in their eye; there's something that happens to them; they go wait what what is that? And this is people that have done you know hundreds of times smoked DMT and they and this is I almost I have a compilation of videos of certain people that that allow me to share of people doing this, and I'm I understand that something is different there. So now to tell you that I have uh a way to describe it with words what is different between the rotating Galaxy and the specific letters and the moment there's nothing I can say; it's based on a quality of experience that you must have for yourself, but I claim that after you have it you will start understand what I mean by no no it it has a different kind of rigidity which is a difficult thing to say in terms of DMT because everything is astonishing; I agree with you, but this is maybe more astonishing but not because it's crazier; it's the other way around; it's because how mundane it is. So you all of a sudden have this like field of craziness going on in front of you, beautiful and where the laser is everything collapses and there's just this digital clock and it's super coherent. I don't know you probably you probably don't want me to tell you too much in case you actually want to try this for yourself so you can because I can email you later and you don't look at the email look at it only after you saw it and then you'll see how many correlations there are to what I'm actually telling you, um, but yeah that's the best I can do with words. I think that the real discussion and this is not evading the subject but this is the truth; the larger discussion is that does theay laser allow us to triangulate something objective versus having all of these correlations uh that are seems to be subjective but some people say no we think it's objective because we seemen the same being or something like that. This is something that as you know they focused on in the first round in the Imperial College in London and it's a it's a noble attend and I'm I'm I'm I'm super happy that the people who are involved are involved very smart people very dedicated, uh, but if you ask me to go and ask around if we saw the same being if the space is real is kind of the same way like dropping two people from another planet in New York City and asking a couple of random folks something about the physics of that space; it's not going to get you very far because we can we can establish that maybe some beings look the same or feel the same, but you're getting into very deep Waters of what you said in the first time we we tried to talk which is like it's the archetypes right; you can say that there's certain underpinnings of the brain that are very similar and because of that these things appear very similar. What I'm saying is that the code seem to be so coherent and stable; it never changes in essence; it never moves; it never nudges towards nothing else but what it actually is that I'm claiming it gives you a tool to at least potentially play with asking okay if this is a real space and what we're seeing is real what do we need to do through our understanding of our physical world to establish that in full? For example, if you do certain perturbations physical perturbations around it which is a set of experiments that I'm developing now with a physicist, let's say rotating magnetic fields or projecting it through bismuth or some other substance whatever it might be right, and then you play you really set it up as like an actual laboratory condition and then you have multiple people view this thing under the same conditions and let's say I rotate magnetic fields this way with this frequency around exactly this point if something changes in the code and I ask people what changed and then they report and you have 200 people report the same thing okay you have something even if you want to say that it's something about the brain you still have something because if you didn't tell anybody something and it happened exactly the same way when a physical uh uh phenomena was present then you actually have something, and that's the potential that I'm claiming that the laser allows you to do versus any other thing which you have so many degrees of freedom there like beings for example because it it rests on well can of just maybe I throw in a different example here are you familiar with kind of like um traditional say shapo Shamanism or kind like prevan Shamanism? So there they have you know it's very common for Within These iasa Ceremonies for people to report these these this very shapo these very iconic shapo kind of tapestries which will end up kind of pouring out the out the ceiling and sort of completely overtaking the Visionary space. Now that actually does get recorded that the the the vision that is being seen is the iaro that is being sung and the iaro that is being sung the shamans record these in a the actual tapestry itself um and and they weave these tapestries and you can you know I've got some hanging on on my bedroom wall in the other room the these are they're not just pretty patterns they are the spoken word the song equals the vision the vision can be captured in language; it's it's so when you you know and I've I've got a video of this somewhere on Instagram of a shapo Sharman um sitting and and someone's looking to buy one of these tapestries and and this and she says I'll sing it for you and she and she she reads it as a piece of music and sings you know sings it as she's tracing the lines the lines are equal sort of Western sheet music. So again this kind of points to this thing that these things are sort of um capture you know capturable that these phenomena do do occur with outside of a laser that things can be stimulated that again have this very this objective quality that you're talking about because it is something that is heard that becomes experienced as a vision; the vision itself has deep emotional psychological meaning; people get healed during these ceremonies; it changes the way they view themselves; it might change they might stop feeling physical pain; it has an just an extraordinary spectrum of effects, and again this is all kind of well documented within sort of psychedelia; I would say it points to exactly what I'm saying; just in the west we insist on interpreting it in a different way.

I think we I I don't know if we if we so what is the way that you think that we interpreting it? So if we're saying that it's not enough to establish that there's something objective going on, uh, in other words there's the physical world and then there's our mind separate from it, I'm saying that that points to that not being the case, but in the west we're still entrenched in this Vision that we insist that No this must be explained in terms of the physical world is interacting somehow with our mind and that's what we we seeing.

I'd say that we were entrenched but that again this is kind of changing as part of the of the ongoing you know new new Research into psychics because now with there's all these all these you know trials going on of particularly focused on things like uh on people like military veterans whereby it is now being more understood that the psychological is impacting the physical that you know people are feeling physical pain and and their lives their very objective lives are being severely disrupted by psychological you know subjective uh you know experiences. So I would agree it that was sort of you know Western uh the Western mindset was very overly overly dry overly reductionist at one point. Um, I mean he gone through phases of being very highly spiritual you know we could you could trace it back to things where like the Catholic church was the M thing so it's gone in

Cycles. But I would certainly say that, you know, up until like the 80s, it was certainly that kind of mindset, but it it's changing. And as it changes, I think it's it's best uh I think the better approach is to really just just look at these things as a kind of full, like I say, as the full spectrum as accepted with the experience.

But if we sort of if we focus on these kind of what I would say like kind of novel, gimmicky, ty things, I think we it I mean the kind of the laser thing, it does it and it doesn't invoke a certain kind of magical thinking. It's saying that something only happens here because of this and you know, you know lasers.

Dimension. I'm a little surprised by you saying that. I'm not sure like I don't remember ever myself saying that or so this this is never the emphasis that only under these conditions you see this because I'm sure there's if it's real then there's there must be there's always very numerous ways to arriving at the same point of understanding; otherwise, it's you can't triangulate it.

I am okay. Well, let's go let's let me just try and pin this then. So so we are agreeing then that it is the effect is not unique to the laser. So far from what I'm seeing, you cannot achieve this level of resolution without the laser. Uh, for example, people email me all the time that sometimes they see a certain kind of code when they either wake up or they're in a different alage state even with things like MDA or MDMA or just under uh uh Transcendental Meditation or things like that. Um, and I and I do see, for example, the code if I smoke DMT or on a certain amount of mushrooms. I also see certain kind of language or code kind of running in surfaces subsumed.

But when you project the laser, that's why I keep pointing to the resolution of it, it seems to have a different it it's different enough to be a different thing. So, for example, the language that you see without the laser uh it has a little bit more malleable quality. You can kind of change it with your attention to something else; it's a little ephemeral. Uh, but when you look with the laser, the rigidity just jumps up to a completely different level, and it doesn't seem seem to be malleable. It's it's just would you would you say that's that's due to the I mean I mean lasers are fairly specific pattern-creating devices, so you know I think an example an analogy here would be that if you know if you had a black screen and you projected a a white square onto it and then's taking off psychedelics then that square will become a a cube, and then the cube may become a sort of Tesseract and begin sort of transforming within itself, and it will be as it will have a special level of fidelity to it because it is a fairly simple, very uh high-contrast pattern of black screen, white square. And then this sooner or later this object will begin to sort of flaat off the screen, flot into a hyperspace, begin to take on you can have relationships with the object and begin to sort of you know identify with the object. So you can have that same I think the level of fidelity you're talking about I think is just just flip the process you just described.

Okay, and that's what I mean, flip the process I just described. So I'm not sure what put a projector, black screen onto white from the blest to the most concrete, and and the laser would lay on the Spectrum in the most concrete, but the what what I've just described would would also be the most concrete because we're talking about a very specific um extremely contrasted you're saying with your attention you can just break bre it down completely; that's what you're saying.

I'm I'm I'm not saying with either with your attention or without. I'm just saying that under the effects of psychedelics, whether it's something that's you're intentionally focusing your attention on um that you can have you know a very simple pattern which again is more or less what the laser is is a simple pattern um is can be expressed as a fourth-dimensional object um complete with its own objectness. And if that could be because of of the nature of psyched Psych elic, that's the presentation just bear with me one second Dan, just because of the nature of psychedelics that object could then be presented alongside an Awakening experience, which is a lot of what what what you describe sounds like someone having like a Eureka, like aha, like this is a a true you know I think there's a difference between having a psychedelic experience and having one of these kind of very Awakening experiences, and and I wouldn't deny that you could have that be um be forced upon you by the presence of of a certain set of circumstances, in this case you know the pattern that the laser is generating or you know the vision of Christ in a piece of toast. You know, I don't think it it kind of matters what the thing is that stimulates it; you you can find profound meaning within a otherwise fairly mundane object, and it can be you know completely Consciousness rewi wiring. So again like I I would say that the the effect that it's happening having on the individual um again I'm not dismissing at all; I just don't think it it's it's specific to the laser. Again, you know like I said, people see Jesus in cat's you know yeah saying but it's but it's not it doesn't belong in the same realm of experiences.

No, but the not not from the Visionary side of things but but from The Awakening side of things, but that's a much deeper about human conviction and meaning and Consciousness. So I guess what I want to take you uh to the qu to I want to ask you what do you mean by because of the nature of Psych what is that nature? Well the well I think that nature is is something that I am in no way or or I think nobody on the planet is really yet qualified to make a statement on it is but that's my point; it is it is the the altering of The Human Experience that is what it is; an altered state. It is the nature of entering an altered state where things that were not possible are possible within that subjective experience. Now whether that experience is Tethered to this piece of meet or whether it's part of some sort of Consciousness field in the same way that gravity exists or whether it's part of some sort of alien you know TV station that's be it knows uh I mean and I'm completely open to any of that, but I don't think that's um that's the stuff where we kind of we we can speculate; we can have sort of fun talking about. I think the it's it's important to sort of talk about it, and it certainly I think even just the act of talking about it stimulates a human consciousness in in amazing ways, which is good, but I I wouldn't sort of go and put my heart on any one of these things and say I know that's what it is and I know that's what it is because I did this with either the picture on my wall or the laser or the or the the icaros or or whatever. I think that seems to take a little bit of the um I don't know it seems just too too certain, and I think I don't think that's a place come from.

That's fair, but that's again I I will always bring you that back to the point that this is is for me the stimulation of a conversation that needs to happen. I still convinced of what I'm saying, but I am not uh it's not that I have a lot of resting on convincing you. I am saying look here's the information; I'm convinced; I can tell you why uh it's not that I'm I don't have like but I'm I'm not I'm not sure what what it is we're talking about being convinced of because it seems wait about committed.

I'm not yeah I'm not when you're talking about being con me being convinced of something I'm not sure even I think it's almost like we're talking two it sounds like you your impression is that uh I think that the laser is somehow a magical moment that allows for this thing to happen versus it just points to Something Real in reality. And I'm saying we have enough to know that this is actually real, and we're not allowing ourselves to trust some of our intuitions, and we're not we we we're asking the wrong questions. So, for example, to ask if the brain can produce this potentially is not a good question because it's too blunt.

Why? Because the brain is too incomplete, which means that technically it can simulate anything if you're given enough time and energy. So it's in can you just clarify what would you mean by incomplete? Sorry uh it's it's touring complete; it's a computational system that is touring complete, which means oh T sorry complete, which means that it can simulate anything in existence that is physically possible.

Sure. So the reason it makes the the question infinitely elastic because the answer to if the brain can produce this particular thing is always yes. And so the the question has to be of a different flavor. Can we set up conditions? Can we set some kind of an experiment they will maybe not conclusively but conclusively enough give us enough information of whether this thing is only manifested in all of our minds or is it a thing that responds to something that we call physical? So you're basically creating some kind of you need to create a demarcation line which I'm not 100% sure how to do, but this is something where we have to do it because at this point I would say we have enough information. I would also claim that it's not a coincidence that it happens now, but that's already a much more you know tin foil haty.

Do you not think yeah do you not think maybe this is by doing this or that kind of plays into the kind of the hands of the of the kind of the Western Scientific zeit guys that you you you seem to be have opposed to because you're I think you're trying to Lodge I'm not opposing it at all. I think there has to be Balan between perceptions; that's all I'm saying. But you're trying to it seems like you're trying to um tether the Transcendent experience to the physical experience, and and again I would I would sort of question whether that's actually there's any purpose in that just like I would not try and teure tether my emotional experience to like I like I said at the beginning, no one's going to it would be useless for someone to try and measure my love for somebody else. It it it's it's pointless.

So when we get to the so I understand what you're saying are you framing the laser observation as the transcended experience? Um I'm I'm I'm framing your sort of you seem to be wanting let me yeah let let me try and sort of backtrack just to just to sort of make sure that we so what I'm trying to point point to is that that the laser itself is is not um causing a unique effect, and you seem to be more or less agreeing with that.

I'm certain of that. Yeah, no, I'm certain that it's it's not a unique effect. I'm certain that what you see in the laser is not it points to the fact that there's layers that you see in the Psychedelic.

Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so the laser itself is is not a unique effect, but it is very I think what you're saying is that the laser is very good at highlighting, really drawing attention to something that he's going on which which is we're kind of getting into that sort of metaphysics now and sort of like hey that there's you know objective reality is not what we think; there's more layers here, and look here's a here's a very sure-fired way of having that kind of Awakening.

Yes, and and I I wouldn't necessarily dispute that, but but again I you know I would say that the same kind of effect could be had by you know any other sort of of the various routs through through psychedelia. Only way for you to try and tell me if you think it's correct that the only way because because there's nothing I can say with words that will convince you that it might be different because you're so experienced in that space, and that's the only thing I can encourage you to do, and I I do encourage you to do, and you know I'm willing to send you a laser, no charge, so you can the proper one and you can actually try it.

I mean absolutely. I mean I'm I'm you know I like to think I'm you know I am a psychonaut; I'm an Explorer like yourself, so by all means that if you're willing to to to send me that I would be more than happy to approach it with an absolute open man you know like I said I'm not trying to on on what you what you're doing or try and be that's that's good mate cuz I am I am genuine that so I would be absolutely happy to try it out and give my honest opinion on it on the on the on the channel.

Okay, so let's let's I think we we let's try and move past I have got a couple more minutes if you do down because I do I'm trying to be respectful of your time, but I I cleared the I have another 30 minutes so we can defin as you have yeah yeah yeah cool. So if we can sort of agree that let's let me put this way that the laser is one way of many ways to to access um this kind of additional understanding or this kind of additional realization about the the nature of realities, would that be a first statement?

Or at the moment I'm not aware of any other way to make it that concrete. Okay, so you think that people I'm saying at the moment I'm not aware of any other way to make it that concrete, but that would then suggest then that there's out of all the people who've ever done psychedelics only yourself and you're kind of like laser onour are the ones who've who have seen because the kind of realizations that you're talking about this is not uncommon; I mean you're not realizations you might have similar realizations, but the observation itself is of a unique flavor that I am claiming so far with everything that I understand about the world seems to point to a new way of probing it.

Yes, and you and you wouldn't you wouldn't make the same kind of el anology that by saying that being in being in the middle of the Jungle in an iasa ceremony and having Shaman sing at you and experience that that is also similarly a unique experience because I mean I you know I've done I've done my first year of psychedelics over the last 30 years, and I certainly don't get that experience sat in my bedroom that I get sat in the middle of a jungle, and I've done that enough times you know so it's so it's I think we're saying the same thing; it's it's level of conviction because of the level of the repeatability and rigidity of the experience. I'm saying the laser sit somewhere up here. I can't know for sure for all humans ever existed if they never had the same kind of you know and I'm sure they had, but this is just a little bit more democratic like it is just like consistent enough to say that that this is you know and I guess not to but into your question, but this is a small point I do want to make uh you I'm sure that you're familiar with the allegory that comes from uh buddhis Zen with the snake and the Rope, right?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So the in a nutshell for the audience there's you know you sit in a room; you think there's a snake; you have an emotional reaction; oh my God, the snake; and then you're like wait a second; then you come closer; the way that the sh you think it's a rope now like the way the shade hits the Rope whatever. So you get go back and forth; you're like oh it's a rope; it's okay; and then you relax inside; and then you're like no it's a snake; it's a rope; okay. So you go back and forth; there is a moment where if you get close enough to the object from which there's no more return. So in in Buddhism they they they use this analogy to uh to outline the fact that the there's the seeking of the self; there's a point to the process of the seeking of the self that is like being convinced that it's a rope; from that point on you can never go back to seeing that it's a snake because you have enough information because you're close enough; there's enough of the thing you see that it's a rope. In the same sense in Buddhism they talk about the fact that there is a moment where you can be convinced, absolutely convinced that there's no self because that's the truth. So in the same way I would tell you that there it that code has that this is a rope moment; like you just know what it is, and there's no question about it now. I'm not saying you know what it is in the sense of like you know what the ultimate thing of it is, of course not; we're just in the beginning of playing with this thing, but you know that something is really there, and that's my claim.

Yeah, and I would kind of just follow I think you know the reason that these kind of these codes, languages, scripts, whatever call them are sort of meaningful; the reason why I think people like Allison gray is it does try and capture it is because yeah I would I would completely agree that this is a a meaningful it's it's the the the presence of the code itself is not a sort of or the language or whatever we want to call it; mystical language, secret language and speak blah blah blah; that is not a kind of gimmick, and it does sort of lead to these kind of questions uh of you know very sort of broad questions almost un you know unwordable questions because it just it it strikes something very sort of deep within us of this kind of inner mystery. Um, but again I like I said I just don't think that is is NE hinged upon the laser, but it sounds like we're agreeing that it's it's not that we just really talking a question of fidelity or um I think the columnated light like from technical terms I think the columnated light allows so it doesn't work with regular light, for example, and it doesn't work without the defraction so it tells us a lot about well not a lot but it tells us quite a bit about like what needs to happen and why which by the way we can actually utilize to try and now sift through what we know about physics and why this might happen. Um I would say my you know working assumption is that the fact that it's a laser in that regular light allows for this kind of resolution.

Totally agree. I would 100% I think that is exactly what why it happens with the S laser, and that's why I also use the example earlier of you know a black screen with a white square projector. I think you need that distinct ju position of contrast in order for something to be able to happen. So if it was mushy like you say if it was just a a torch um put against against the wall, it it wouldn't work; you would get a sort of it's not going to have that kind of precision which something like a very you know well-rendered high-definition image would do. Um so I think I think we're I think we're more or less on this the same page there. I've I have got a couple of questions down, and they are they are a little bit cheeky, so I I hope I hope you can take them in sort of good good spirits um but I you know thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, yeah. No, because I don't want you to think I think we I think we're more on the same page than we we on different pages. Um one thing I do want to just just float to you are you the the I was discussing this with a couple of U of peers on in a in a Discord server, and one uh sort of person who was actually this is a person who who is a professional psychedelic researcher um they sort of floated that what's possibly going on here was uh and I don't know if this is a a welln ter but McKenna syndrome. So as you might be aware, Terrence mckenna and his later sort of years he focused intensely on this time wave zero.

Yeah, yeah. And he sort of threw himself into it; had all this these these same sort of convictions and stuff there and then after many many years and and again putting the same efforts into a came to realization actually this is just completely delusional, and also in the process maybe that he he kind of stretched his own sort of you know boundaries a little bit too much and sort of broke his own sort of ethics of of of what he was of how much he wanted this to work. I just wanted to to kind of fla that have you considered that this might be something that's that's going on with yourself because you did make some Illusions earlier to that you know it did sort of make you you know there was a lot of doubt about it at the beginning, so you know is this something that you you would entertain as a possibility that it's you know although that there is something there and that there in the same kind of lofty ideas that there are around time wave zero which again is a fascinating fascinating Theory but I think most people would agree it's complete um but that doesn't take anything away from the fascin and the kind of the the ability for it to stimulate conversations around it. So yeah I like say it is a little bit of a cheeky question, but do you think is there there any sort of parallels there or is that something you considered?

Uh well okay so there's a lot to unpack there. The first thing I would say about time wave zero is that uh there was a lot of fudging going on there; you probably know the detail right? So the the way he works with mathematician originally arrived at a different date, and then he conveniently realigned it with the December 21st 2021 uh and there's a lot of other things like that, and the the element of confabulation is a very big one; it's very it's very easy to drift uh away from what you really are experiencing into this delusions of grandeur and all of that stuff. So in the grand scheme of things, can I know that uh this is not some kind of a trick that the universe is playing on me and on us? Of course not; I can't possibly know that. I do know one thing. So there's again if if you would like uh this will be lovely either after you try it or in some other time we can also have another discussion about what I'm claiming to now also see on a regular basis which is like all these added components on DMT that were not present before uh that appear 100% at the time for me, and they're very real um in the sense of like you know objectness and all these things.

Sure. And um combined with the fact that I'm not TR my my focus like I already told you in this conversation is not to say guys this is it; we got to drop everything and do this thing; my only emphasis so I have my conviction because of my reasons that we can talk about deeper, but my actual I guess I see it as contribution is to shake enough smart people to say hey guys seriously there's something here you should look, but you should look with a little bit more SC scr eyes like you should you you should actually look at it a little bit closer uh sorry not scrupulous um so you you should be able to allow yourself to venture into a slightly more uh fluid territory what you think it might be because I think it will lend you in a much more concrete Place uh and that's really the mission that I'm on. Uh teren put a lot of stock into this; I have a lot of other things going on; this is not uh you know the thing that animates my life; I'm I'm much more focused on trying to figure out how to help people in different ways uh through you know deep understanding of themselves and the world and all that stuff um

So that's where the that's where the most of my interest really is; but I do see that there's something real there. So whatever, whatever, wherever it's going to take us together collectively—what I said in my videos—I mean that this is something that will be arrived at by all of us together. This conversation is a perfect example of this. It's important that people push back; I welcome this with with open arms because then you really get lost in the weeds.

So I am working with a physicist and I am working with a cognitive scientist, uh, who, you know, I bounce these ideas off of them, and they ask, "Okay, how crazy are we getting into here?" or, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, so that sense, I see less of that danger because I'm allowing the new data to inform me all the time. But at least in the moment, I do insist that we should look closer, and I do think that we will have uh an additional breakthrough within the next uh less than a year because I do think that there's a there's a thing there that seems—I don't want to talk about it like in in, you know, in vague terms—but I do think there's going to be another layer here to to add. And if it turns out that we come up with like a perfectly good understanding that captures all of the things that I'm at the moment aware of and it still frames them in the regular physicalist perspective, great. I have no problem with it.

Well, I don't think I don't think my my concern is, you know, and and I've certainly been accused of this a few times—I'm not saying that you're accusing me of it, but I'm saying people often do just because I, you know, I do sort of challenge back on on some of these things—um, I I don't think the um the desirable end goal is to try and bring this back to a physical—I don't consider myself to be like a, you know, I I can wax lyrical about the Transcendent as much as as much as anyone, but I do think think it's kind of useful to to frame that within a somewhat sort of, you know, I would just say a grounded s of mindset. So I'm not trying to bring this back into just like a a purely physical materialist reductionist, whatever sort of, you know, is we want to put on it. Um, corre. So yeah, you know, in that regard I'm sort of kind of there with you. Like I think we it's to to have the the sort of the the the bigger discussions I think is absolutely where where we should; and and again that this is why I think that that tethering it to the the physical laser thing rather than the sort of the the bigger and and, you know, unfortunately I'm not saying this is any any fault of your own, Dan, but from a lot of the comments and stuff that that I've I've read and messages that I've had, people who are kind of in support this, they they are sort of talking more about like Dimension-ripping lasers, lasers going on. So I think again, hyperbole is very common, especially in space, but but but I but it's it's the conversation is—yeah, go ahead. But suggestibility is also very very common, and I think that's um, you know, I think you know we both know that there's a lot of people, you know, who will um follow what I would say kind of like very sort of strange ideas; you can end up with sort of, you know, Guru, you know, very strange Guru Cults forming and sort of sort we it is. So I think this is it's more the reason to try and sort of ground it of of what whatever it is we're trying to have the conversation around, to try and ground it in the most sort of um, you know, practical and and sort of um easily communicable language rather than sort of focusing on sort of quantum mysticism or or sort of—

I mean, one thing that kind of occurred to me—again, this is slightly cheeky, so I don't hope we don't take it to it—but I I I was I when I was looking at this, I was think I was kind of envisioning 50 years into the future, and I was thinking like, are we seeing the birth of the Church of psychedelic lasers? Where like the like the, you know, the Covenant is is, you know, the, you know, the sacrament is the laser and the object of worship is the code, and it's all hail the sacred code; it's all hail the laser, you know? And I was thinking, "Oh Jesus," and you know, when we see the nature of some of these Cults, you know, there could be a picture of picture of St. Dan on the wall. And I mean this, of course, I I and like I I I think you're very genuine; I think you're very enthusiastic; I I really do admire your curiosity; but I I do also think it's important to try and stop some of this kind of, you know, craziness appearing if possible.

And you know, this is one of the reasons I in a previous conversation that kind of went aride due to technical problems, I I do mention like there are people sort of referring to you as the world-renowned DMT scientist, and of you funny, it was one title of the podcast; it was a it was a comedy podcast; it's it's actually not me; it's actually yeah yeah, but it's actually it's actually in in a lot of his pretty much all the videos of which he that particular person is talking to you will will carry some grandiose title of the world's most renowned DMT specialist, the world's DMT expert, the DMT scientist. Did you watch any of these through? Yeah, did I come across as that? Um, I don't think you came across as that, but I do think there was some language that you're using which I think cast some um some false or I would say whe—I don't know whether it was I I don't want to sort of um say that it was necessarily intentional—but it came across as a kind of um false comparison. So there was conversations, yeah, sure; there was uh a conversation where you where you having where you were talking about um your um experiences your with with with the laser, and you immediately went from that topic and in and moved into you were talking that uh you start talking about Extended State DMT; you you immediately went from there to talk about how you you were on you just been on the phone to Chris Zimmerman; you immediately went from that say and and you just and as you as you do, Dan, and and I think it's a you know you link your ideas um almost seamlessly and conversational topics almost se—but those conversational topics are sometimes completely unrelated, which is why I think it's it's important to slice up into chunks because the overall impression which I had—yeah, yeah—the overall impression that comes across from um from taking a snippet of one of these conversations is that yes, it sounded like you were saying that not um that Chris Chris Zimmerman has signed off on this and that this is now being included in the DMT xra, and that's not the case; it's the impression that's given. It are you saying that I said that? I'm not saying that you directly said that; I'm saying that the way that you strung those those topics together—I see, I see. So you're saying that it right after—so it seems like I'm saying that I got the green light from people like Zimmerman. I'm saying that yeah, there is the way that you speak across these topics; there is no pause in between that you actually CH—it's sentence after sentence. I I mean, I'll if if it's okay, I can I can include one of the clips to to sort of demonstrate what I'm talking about. No, I'm not—first of all, you're free of course to do what you will; I am not uh I'm trying I'm just trying to like I said, it's a fair reflection back uh and it's very important for me to actually come across as rigorous as I possibly can because of the nature of the ground that I'm thread threading.

Um, yeah, I mean, just kind of you do you do speak with this kind of stream of consciousness kind of thing, and that's that's you know, I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, D; I think it can lead to some really fascinating conversations, but when I think it's it can also be quite uh a sort of a a bit of a Gish Gallop sort of tactic when you're talking about something which is an objective claim or something which is your kind of like personal understanding of something, and then you start immediately stringing in and this researcher said this and and I do this and and I've been on the it it yeah it at that point I think it's it's worth passing out what your sort of claim is and what your thing and then okay, making it clear that this is topic two because I I mean maybe maybe this might be you know part of the the fun of of talking to somebody like that podcast; they were just ging along for the ride, and and it was it was all sort of uh I think just seen as as as one sort of topic and I think and again I think I've seen that I I understand your point very clearly, and again I I I respect and uh and even even appreciate this reflection uh I will even go as far as to say from what I know uh the last time I the last I've heard of it, I think Chris tried it, and he actually he didn't see it right away; this is a thing that I you and I can uh talk about later in detail so you can actually so it's easier for you to see it quicker; there's this thing that I am mentioning in my videos which I'm not sure why that is, and certain people takes them a little longer to see it; uh the good news is that it's a one-way street, so the second that your brain like understands where to find it it just you can't unsee it anymore um and so I would go as far as to say just to clarify if there was about that particular thing uh that as far as I know so far Chris didn't see it um uh but and uh about the specifics that what you reflecting back to me uh yeah, something to take into account because I definitely don't intend it to sound like that, but I also want to make sure that I want to I want to I actually want to steer away from connecting my ideas to like writing on somebody else's reputation if I know that that person did not sign off on what I'm saying; so that regardless that's that's that's a good thing that you tell me that it sounds like that to you.

Yeah, and also I think I think you know I I I am like I said genuine that I think you're a very interesting person; you've got a lot a lot of ideas to to to say, and so I think um I I would just encourage you just as as a person friend I just to steer away from the kind of crank language, and I'm not you know it just I think it it creates it does put you into the kind of quantum mysticism woooo camp, and I think from our conversation I don't think you you are that, and so I think you're kind of doing yourself a discredit by—you know, I'll just put it this way: if that was me, I would get on to somebody and say, "Guy, dude, change the title your video; I you make me look like a," you know, because it's I I I I appreciate you what you're saying, but I I I really don't see it that way. I think if you if you couldn't put it together, it's a comedy channel; there's no like you know this is—if you watch me talk for three minutes, you understand that that's not how I perceive myself. Uh, also like I told you, and this is very genuine what I'm saying right now; I'm not I'm not putting a lot of stock in me being this guy who found this thing; I'm say I'm really interested in us coming at it together and talking about it; so if it's real, we can actually cash it out in a way that it's supposed to be cashed because the claim is huge; it's insane. If if what I'm saying is true, this really will like suggested in my title will change everything, and it's not that I'm saying I'm the first person to ever enter this space and postulate this; far from it; we have geniuses on this planet who are dealing with this like like Gamow and like Chris Zimmerman, right? So the very serious people are addressing this; I'm definitely not definitely not the most renowned DMT scientist, right? So I think that with all of that considered, like I don't know, I I kind of trust the audience to make these distinctions. Um, but also in addition, I think you're having way too much confidence in YouTube audiences, my—but also but also but but also again really, you know, if you I know where I'm coming from, so I I know my karma and conscious is very clean; I know where I'm coming from; I'm coming for us; I'm really really one of my biggest drivers is the the the coming together of humanity, and as trite as it sounds, you know, I understand it's cheesy, but I really think that that's the way forward. If we are going to the stars, we can't bring all this like conniving nonsense and personal stuff like with us; it's just going to tear us apart. I really—I know this is a very off topic for this conversation—but I really think that's the truth, and I know I'm coming from that place; it doesn't mean I always succeed like you just reflected back to me; there's [Music] [Applause] a okay, so it's it's interesting that we're talking about like sort of repeatable effects and stuff like that, cuz I think what what is the repeatable effect is that me and Danny are doomed to have constant uh technical problems whenever we're try and talk, and I think maybe this is the kind of the universe kind of wanting us to have this conversation in bite-sized chunks. So I think we've I think we've I've really enjoyed this conversation, D, and like I say, if if there's if you can, you know, fit me up with one of these lasers, I'll be happy to try it, and yeah, man, I just I'll let you have if there's anything you want to sort of close with or point anyone towards work; I'll certainly put links in the description below to your original video, to your channel, um and if there's anything else you want me to point point towards then I mean yeah, just feel free to to to state now. Uh, thank you, Rob.

So I also had a great time having this conversation; like you said, I have a YouTube channel called then go thoughts—three words—Danny Goer across all social medias actually; I think it's Goer Danny on Twitter, but I barely use it, so it doesn't really matter. Um, I guess closing words is what I was the rift that I was on, and I just want to close that point, which is that um I'm coming at this from the perspective that we are on the verge of a huge discovery, not just from what I'm doing but from all aspects; I will point you to the work that I posted on Twitter from by Melvin Vopson; he's a physicist who just uh claims to have found a new law of physics that has to do with informational systems in which the the second law of infodynamics which seems to be going exactly the opposite of the second law of Thermodynamics, and he proves it in you know biological systems and physical systems and in computational systems uh and even proves that actually uh the EVolution doesn't happen randomly but follows that law. So I that is to the effect of there's going to be a lot of new things that are about to start showing up; that's my claim that will start pointing to the fact that we live in a computational environment, which will also allow us to play with new ways of new technologies, even physical technologies. Um, nobody's under no obligation to take my word word for it, but my aim is to stimulate this conversation, and I do think we have a something of substance here uh and I want this to be an open, honest, and respectful discussion that we continue to have collectively as a as a collective Consciousness. Uh, and on a personal note, I actually never found anything you did uh even slightly cheeky, to be honest; you're extremely respectful, and uh I think we're align basically everything, and I actually think that unless I would be on this end of like the figuring out the laser, I would have the exact same response as you do to what I do; so in that sense, we have nothing but respect between you and I. So that's it; perfect.

Well, thanks a lot, Dan; it's been an absolute pleasure, and yeah, I if you're up for it, let's have a conversation uh in another time, once maybe once I've tried this laser and uh yeah, maybe once the internet gods are smiling on us with with better connections. But thanks a lot for your time; it's been a real pleasure talking to D. Thank you, Rob; same here. [Music]