Transcription
Hello. So we are in Miami. We're interviewing a hotshot lawyer today. He represents Elon, Jay-Z, Megan Thee Stallion, Alec Baldwin, and he is sort of part lawyer, part deal maker, part fixer. And this is a guy who asks tough questions for a living. So he interrogates other people, and I'm gonna interrogate him, so hopefully he can take it.
"The only thing I'm gonna say is the jury got this right."
What you think of Alex Spiro probably depends on what you think of his clients, some of whom are, let's just say polarizing. What does Elon Musk demand in a lawyer?
"What he gets with me is what everybody gets with me, which is, I fight the right way, but I fight hard."
With a background in psychology and an instinct for shaping public perception, Spiro has made a name for himself, defending the rich and powerful. He claims to have never lost a case, and that track record has carried him into the highest circles of American wealth and influence.
Hi. And many see him as capable of delivering more than the typical lawyer can.
"So many lawyers we see are just lawyers. That's who they've been from day one, you know, and he doesn't come from that mold."
This overstates it, but like the movie Michael Clayton, right? Like he's partly in this rarefied corporate world, but he's also gangster. I don't think Spiro is doing anything, you know, criminal, but he is doing things that a lot of other lawyers wouldn't do.
I wanted to know more about his goals and motivations, the secrets to his success in the courtroom and what his next move might be. Alex Spiro, please take the stand. What are the top three moves in the Alex Spiro playbook?
"Well, nobody can know that, but I mean, the number one rule is that no one should ever know what I'm thinking. The second thing is, I am intentionally painting a picture as I go forward that does not reveal everything at the start. So if I give an opening statement, I'm never gonna say what ultimately the end of the movie's gonna be. That wouldn't make for a very exciting movie. And three, I'm going to go away from whatever I think the traditional playbook is."
Your first job out of law school was at the Manhattan DA's office and you cracked a couple of cold murder cases that had been unsolved for years. My understanding is that you were also like knocking on doors saying, gimme the cases you don't want.
"That's true. And it's not a metaphor either. I literally would go office to office and say, I've got nothing to try this week. Does anybody have a case they don't wanna try? And I used to try them all."
Why?
"Competitiveness probably? Desire to get better. And I love being in a courtroom. It's a good feeling to win a case, to solve a case. That being said, you know, I often felt bad. I felt bad with people sitting in prison. I mean, not so much the worst of the worst, but most of the arguments I had with my supervisors at the time were about leniency and psychological intervention and second chances."
Spiro left the DA's office in 2013 and entered private practice as a defense lawyer first at Brafman and Associates, whose founder Benjamin Brafman is known for his famous, some might say infamous clientele. Spiro started building an impressive roster of clients Many of them athletes, entertainers, and other VIPs. That roster later helped Spiro make partner at the powerful Quinn Emanuel. I'd love to hear how you describe some of your top clients in one word. Elon Musk. I didn't think this would be the toughest question of the day, but
In one word?
"You're speechless."
"I dunno that I'm speechless. I'm thinking. It's important to get answers to questions right. Groundbreaking."
Megan Thee Stallion
"Fearless"
Jay-Z
"Genius"
Mr. Beast
"Dynamic"
Alec Baldwin
"Hysterical"
Why do you think people trust you? Like what do you offer them?
"I think that people know that I'll give them what I think is the correct judgment, whether it's unpopular or not. So if they come to me and they say, we want to go down road number one, and I say, that's a bad idea, they know I'll say it's a bad idea. They know I won't just tell them what they wanna hear."
Okay. Before we go any further, let's bring in a couple of expert witnesses to give more context on Spiro's methods. Bloomberg's Chris Dolmetsch and Max Chafkin have spent years reporting on Spiro's eventful career. How would you describe Alex Spiro?
"He believes in himself, or at least he talks like he believes in himself and, you know, to people who are, you know, big, strong personalities. That's really important."
Isn't it unusual for a lawyer to have this kind of star power?
"Well, I mean, there've always been these kind of like TV lawyers, lawyers who understand that like part of being in the job is representing their client to the public in addition to representing their client in court. Spiro gets and understands that Elon Musk doesn't just wanna sell himself to a jury or, or to, to comply with the law or find a way to do what he wants to do from a legal or regulatory perspective. Like he wants to make that case publicly. And he wants to adopt these like very strong boundary pushing positions and defend them, stake them out, and then accept the consequences if he has to."
Spiro first met Musk back in 2018. Musk was in hot water over his infamous "pedo guy" tweet referring to a cave diver involved in rescuing a group of teens in Thailand. The diver sued for defamation and Musk's chances in court didn't look good until Spiro came on board. Spiro's argument to the jury? The Tweet just wasn't a big deal.
"The only thing I'm gonna say is the jury got this right and, and we don't have any further comment at this time."
In the end, what he really convinced them of is that he was just joking. It was just a joke. And I think, you know, in a lot of ways that case shows how, you know, the modern social media environment kind of just opens it up to this, you know, cavalier talk that in past might have led to a defamation victory. And that's one of his core tenets of his practice is to say, just because you went on Twitter and you said something doesn't mean that you're the worst person in the history of the world.
"It is now said by this jury that insults however grave, however unpleasant, are completely open season on social media."
"If somebody's going to say that some minor violation of law, like some, you know, an upgrade or a, you know, somebody sends a tweet out or you know, violated some horrific law, they have to ask themselves, well what was in that person's mind at the time? Were they saying to themselves, I'm about to cross some bright line that subjects myself to prison? Were they really thinking that way?"
I think Spiro's argument was like pretty savvy and it was, it was based on an understanding of what Elon Musk does because like there's no law against being an [expletive] is the thing. And I think one thing that's interesting about that case, not just from a kind of like how did he win perspective, but from a sort of business and power perspective is I think that is what unleashes, you know, Elon Musk in a big way. It's what gives Elon permission not just legal permission, but maybe cultural permission to sort of go wild on Twitter, which ultimately led to his acquisition of Twitter, to his embrace of these kind of extreme political positions.
The Twitter takeover, that one got real messy. You were in the trenches. What worked? What didn't work?
"Well? His decision to acquire the company obviously worked. He is glad he bought it and Elon is very much experimenting as he goes and that's part of his genius. And so it may at moments look as you put it messy, but this is what the great experimenters have always done."
What about the method, like, you know, there was this report that you guys were yelling at each other in a conference room. How does someone like that respond to pushback?
"Everybody advised is used to my pushback. I don't know how they take it. They probably curse me out at times, but I think ultimately when the movie's over people will be thankful that I told them the truth."
Elon tweeted, "If any judge anywhere can block every presidential order everywhere, we do not have democracy, We have tyranny of the judiciary." This is a direct challenge to the legitimacy of the courts. Like how does that stand in your eyes as a lawyer?
"I don't, it would take a lot of time to go through every tweet."
But this one particularly has to do with the law.
"I'm not so sure it has do with me. I have my own views on the system being broken. They're not gonna be the same as his views and other views, but I respect the system. I'm just trying to change it in my own way."
Alright, time for the court to take a brief recess. Cross-examination will continue after some fresh air. Alex's thing is pickup basketball. It's what he does all the time. I think half the time he's injured from basketball, but luckily we caught him on a healthy day and I just wanna see him break out of his shell, like break out of the lawyer caricature and get a little sense of who he really is. Spiro's opponent?
"You gonna come to my house with all these cameras over here like you're gonna do something? This is crazy."
Two-time NBA all-star Joakim Noah, a former client.
"You look really serious about this game. I don't know how we're gonna play on a hoop who's eight feet tall."
"It's for my kids."
"Oh, got it, got it."
"What, you want professional? I thought we were, could play a real hoop. Well I thought you were setting it up so I could dunk a few times before this got going. Like you shouldn't have told anybody, you would've been shining. They can cut that part."
"Are you sure? You forcing me left."
"I'll force you left to start. How many steps is that?"
"Big shot."
Turns out Spiro's competitive streak in court is just as intense on the court. They're getting really into, there's a lot of yelling. Oh, that hurt my soul.
Did you let him win?
"No, I wish."
I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate you both because this hoop looked like, looks like it's eight feet high.
"It would definitely worked in his advantage."
"I don't think it worked in my advantage. I think it didn't work in his advantage."
How, how do you guys, how'd you guys meet?
"I had just signed a big deal with the Knicks and some girl was saying that she had a baby with me and somebody from the hospital got on the phone and said that the baby looked just like me. I was just thinking like, what did I do wrong? Like, did I do something that I shouldn't have done? So I was like, okay, something's fishy. And Alex got on a call for me and I never heard from this person ever again."
Wow. What'd you say, Alex?
"Tell The truth, don't make stories up. Exactly. I always felt very protected with Alex and just our relationship grew off just meeting each other and him helping me out with a situation like that. And then he has the audacity to come to my house and, and beat me in one-on-one."
I read you charge $3,000 an hour, you're losing money as we speak.
"Always losing money. I don't talk about my hour, my hourly rate, but you know, if I need more free time, it's getting higher."
All right. You're a lawyer, you're a sworn officer of the court, How do you toe the line when it comes to pushing the boundaries on legal theories?
"I don't ever argue something or say something in court that I don't believe to be true and supported by the facts and the law. But I'm also not afraid to make a creative argument or tell the truth when it's otherwise unpopular."
You also represent Mayor Eric Adams. Was that creative?
"I think everything that I do has a touch of creativity. I'm not just following some playbook. I think the fact that they tried to run him outta town and take him down for this stupid case, I think my ability to stand my ground and stand my ground for him is forceful, whether creative or not."
In the fall of 2024, the New York mayor was indicted by a grand jury for fraud and bribery, part of a sprawling federal corruption probe.
"My day to day will not change."
Adams claimed it was political payback for his criticism of the Biden administration on immigration. Spiro for his part argued that his client had merely accepted some trivial travel perks.
"This case isn't even a real case. This is the airline upgrade corruption case."
Ultimately, it never went to trial. Trump's Department of Justice asked the judge to dismiss the case, which he did. There was a public outcry in response to the result there. Mass resignations, people who say they've lost faith in the justice system. What's your response to the response?
"Well, when you say mass resignations this, the little"
Lawyers resigned.
"Lawyers resigned."
Yes. And I don't begrudge them their resignations. I also don't take much from it. I was going to win at trial that case. And I think once there were adults in the room who pointed that out, it's gonna be easier to get people to settle. Pardon, dismiss and do other things when you realize, wait a second, are you even gonna win this case? When I say somebody should not have been prosecuted, I mean it and I hope people take it seriously."
The Eric Adams case, what did that tell you about how Spiro operates?
"He does think he can win that case before a jury, and especially just in the reasonable doubt realm. You know, he works for the client, he wants to defend his client, and I think that's why he went into criminal defense. I think that's why he left prosecution. There are a lot of cases where he felt, you know, maybe we should, we could be a little less aggressive in these things. Maybe there should be a second chance. Not everybody does something out of, you know, pure criminal intent. He doesn't need to prove that Eric Adams is the greatest person in the history of the world or is a really good guy. He just needs to prove that he didn't really intend to commit a crime."
You started your career in the criminal justice system when you're not representing high profile clients and you're on the board of the REFORM Alliance. You lecture at universities, you take on wrongful convictions. What's broken about the system?
"Pretty much everything. The system is backwards, racist, draconian. I can't say enough bad about it. I'm hoping it changes and is changing over time and I'm hoping that some of these cases move things forward like bail reform. And that's my little way of doing what I would like to do even more of."
So what needs to be done to fix it? I mean, I realize that's a big question, but what needs to be fixed?
"First of all, the question is, well, what's broken? I mean, putting people in jail on bail because they don't have the economic means to afford bail is not a just system. We incarcerate a higher percentage of the population than any other country on earth. We incarcerate black and brown people in this country at six, seven times the rate as people that are, that are white or not black and brown. The system has hopefully become at least slightly more fair to different people of different means and different races, but only marginally so. And so, you know, we've gotta equal out resources, we've gotta keep our eyes open to these real issues and we've gotta keep fighting."
Spiro's legal career has been running on rocket fuel, but he seems to be setting the stage for his next act in the world of business. How big is the business of Alex Spiro?
"I don't think as big as it's gonna be in a year. I aim to do things outside of the law and I will, that I think will be a bigger business than my legal business."
Spiro wouldn't share any details about his business ventures, but he did invite us to meet a certain very, very, very famous athlete who he's partnering with.
Where are we? What is this place?
"We're just you know, we, this is where our office is."
This is your office?
"Your joint office. It's his office, but I use it sometimes It's just like, it's a little barren. What's up buddy? How are you? How's it going?"
"You own a collared shirt?"
"I do own a collared shirt. All right guys."
Hi.
"Thanks so much."
Hi. Emily.
"Nice to see you too."
"Thanks for having us."
"Nice to meet you."
"Nice to meet you."
"You guys wanna tell him what happened when Joakim played me one-on-one today?"
Joakim Noah and I played one-on-one.
"Oh really? And you didn't win."
"Okay. Okay. You won fair and square."
"I have bum knees, guys."
I always imagine that when you go against NBA guys, right? Could I score really score points if they tried? Like could I, if I played LeBron in '21, could I get three points?
"Right?"
"I don't think I could."
"You can't if he stays on you. If he stays right, but if they give you any space you could, you could. If you get lucky and make a shot."
"You get lucky and make a shot"
After a couple more minutes of sports talk, we were kicked out because
All right, all thanks so much. Thanks for the time. Cheers. Thank you guys.
That was pretty cool. Just Tom Brady. I kept asking Alex what this place is, what do you do here? Stuff. Okay? Well, that was interesting. Spiro and Brady's business venture is still a bit of a mystery. One thing's for sure. It's time for a drink. So is this one of your favorite spots?
"Yeah, sure. Many favorite spots. This is one of 'em."
What's Miami living like really for you?
"You know, it's relaxing. It's my oasis from the war."
The war. This is peace.
"This is peace. When we met for the first time, you told me you were in war mode. What is war mode?"
"For better or worse, if I'm very focused on trying to solve a problem, it's hard for me to do other things at that time. Social things, you know, human interactions. So if I'm in war mode, it means sort of everybody get away from me and let me think."
I know you're friends with Francis Suarez, Mayor Suarez, Do you have any fun projects going together?
"What I'm trying to do is bring the boring tunnel here, and to fix traffic in Miami."
I have noticed the traffic.
"Yeah. And if I do that, that'll be great because then you can go to your favorite hotspot, not have to worry about rush hour."
So is Elon helping out with that?
"Well he, you know, he's a, he's a man of a lot of ideas and means, and so, you know, I think he is gonna help and, and that's gonna make Miami a better place."
You've been described as Elon's consigliere. How do you feel about that characterization?
"I don't bother myself much with adverbs and characterizations that people say in the media. It's not productive. I have no control over it and it's usually a way to get more attention on it, whether accurate or not."
Accurate or not.
"I, I hope that my advice is followed very much."
What's the biggest misconception about you?
"I don't know. You'd have to tell me what the, what the conceptions are."
Well, I don't know if the, it's the biggest misconception, but I think some people think you just represent bad guys or rich guys.
"Well, I, I don't, you know, I don't know what bad guys mean. You know, people are more than the worst thing they've ever done, obviously because I represent major corporations and people that are wealthy. I don't know what to say other than that is true. There is a tilt towards people that can afford the way in which I go about practicing law. But what I would say back and where I start at the beginning is that my ability to take on those cases and fight the way that I do changes the system for everybody."
What's your relationship with President Trump?
"My relationship with the president and with other world leaders is amicable and I take on certain issues. I don't take on every issue, but if somebody wants to run an issue by me, they can."
We're living in such charged time politically, socially, emotionally. How do you think we're gonna look back on this moment in time?
"I think we're gonna be embarrassed at the fact that politics and these very strong, you know, ideas and opinions are not being debated anymore, but they're, they're just involved in this violent ping pong game where we're doing things we shouldn't be doing. And I think we're gonna look back and regret a lot of this, which is why I've taken some of the recent stance that I have. I don't want anybody taking vengeance on anybody. I want everybody to just, you know, starting tomorrow, let's go cold turkey. And if somebody who's a world leader or a political candidate violates a very large standard deviation beyond the law, have at it. But if not, the problem is that everyone's gonna lose trust in the system and it's going to hurt everybody."
I feel like people already have lost trust in the system.
"Well the point of these cases is to, from my perspective, what I'm trying to accomplish is to bring that trust back. The political sphere is so mired in this nonsense that I am still hopeful that we all just decide to stop. We won't attack political enemies in either direction and everybody moves forward."
We were talking earlier about what are the parallels between basketball and lawyering?
"Only you can answer that. Gotta have grit, man."
Like you did when you play. Gotta have grit.
"I realize you do have something in common. 'cause you're both good defenders."
"He's not that good of a defender."