LIVE: The Mahdi is Coming – Iran’s Apocalyptic Plan Exposed

Hello everyone. Thanks for joining me again in the Holy War channel. We're in the middle of a war with a nation that's not only a Muslim nation, but a Shia Muslim nation. What does that mean? And uh, what do all the little known esoteric arcane doctrines that are associated with Shiaism, namely meism, which revolves around eschatology, end times? What does all of that have to uh, what, what is the significance of all that in the current conflict?

These are very important questions that seldom come up, as most people talk about just pragmatic, uh, real politic type questions, as they should, of course. But I believe these are very important topics that give a lot of context to what is going on and what can go on. And so, um, today I've invited a guest to join me, scholar Dr. Timothy Furnish, and uh, let me tell you a little bit about him. Uh, he's been, uh, he's been studying meism, the topic we're going to look at. And meism, of course, you may have heard it if you know anything about Islam, you know the Mahi is the end times figure. Comes from a word which, uh, means the guided one. Mahi means to guide someone in the correct path. So the Mahi is a, a good figure, technically from the Islamic point of view, of course, and he's here to guide the world, essentially, but of course, through his followers. And it's very interesting because there's differences between the Shia and Sunni, which we'll definitely be getting to, be getting into. But Dr. Dr. Timothy Furnish, Furnish has been studying at Mahiism since the 1990s, um, after serving as an Arabic interrogator in the US Army. He did a, he, he got a doctorate in Islamic history and a doctoral dissertation on meism from Ohio State, uh, University. And he's taught college, worked as a civilian analyst for US Special Operations Command, lectured here and around the world on this topic of meism, and written articles and books on that same topic, as well as many other issues. His website, you should go to it. It's accidental jihadists, uh, accidental jihadists. I have a link in the description of this live stream, and his books are on Amazon, and I also have them named, um, also in the, in the description box. And, um, and before I bring him on, here's actually a quick picture of him. So this is him standing in front, and he can tell us some more about this, but, um, I think in Qum, one of the, the very most important mosques for 12 Shia Islam in Iran, which will explain what all that is, but apparently that's also where the, the, the hidden Imam, the Mahi, is supposed to reappear. And, um, he took that picture some time back, and he can tell us a little bit more. But without further ado, here's Dr. Tim Furnish. Hello, Tim. How's it going? I'm glad you joined me. Thanks for, uh, Tell us a little bit about that picture, too.

>> Hey Raymond, thanks for having me again. Um, yeah, I got invited to a conference in Iran back in 2008 on the Mati. They, I don't know if they still have them or not, but they used to have these yearly, and it's really sort of a big propaganda fest where they, they're trying to disseminate, they're doing da'wah, basically trying to disseminate their beliefs. I mean, so they bring in some Westerners, and they bring in, I mean, there were a lot of Arab Shia there, I ran into from Iraq and so on. Um, but, uh, yeah, they, it was in Tehran, but they actually took us to, to took us to Jamkaran, which is that mosque. And almost got in trouble. I took, I had the, I had the, I had the, uh, I had the, uh, the translator because I've taken two years of Persian, but my Persian's terrible. Um, and the translator was taking pictures of us. She took that picture of me there, but then we went inside. You weren't supposed to take pictures inside. And he took one picture of inside. Uh, and the guy almost got arrested for taking pictures inside. I felt, felt bad for the guy because we, couple of me and a couple of, I think Germans had asked him to do it. So, but yeah, that's the mosque where, according to Islamic tradition or Shia tradition, I don't think there's actually a hadith about this or anything, but I think the tradition just grew up that the 12th Imam will reappear. You hear this famous thing you hear in social media sometimes, "Oh, he's in a, he's in a well out back. He's got to come out of the well." Um, I didn't get around to the back of the well to take a picture, so I can't, I can neither verify nor, uh, or, or, or disverify that that's indeed there. But, um, anyway, that's where that is. It was a beautiful mosque, I'll say that. Qom has a lot of beautiful things in it besides, you know, probably centrifuges.

>> All right. Um, all right. So, let's get into it. Um, I have a lot of questions for you and, um, because again, this is a very esoteric topic. I, through my readings and studies, have come across Mahiism, and most people, of course, don't know it's actually also has a strong Sunni strain as well, which we'll get into. Um, but what, so, so actually, let's start with that. Why don't you tell us, and let's start actually the way I always like to start, let's start with the historical, possibly, and doctrinal kind of, um, origin of it all, and how it went through history, and then kind of come up to the present. So, in that vein, my first question is really, uh, what is Mahiism, and how does it differ between Sunnis and Shia, and why have you, uh, dedicated so much of your academic career researching it?

>> I'll save that last one. I'll save that last one for last. Um, uh, it's basically Islamic messianism. I mean, all of the, of course, monotheistic religions have messianic ideas, of course, of course, we Christians have the right one, but, um, you know, it's extent in Judaism, um, it also goes back, you probably know this, but maybe a lot of people don't, goes back to Zoroastrianism. I mean, there was tradition of, I believe it was two, uh, for the folks who don't know, Zoroastrian was the ancient Persian religion before Islam, and Persia, um, and, um, it's sort of monotheistic, it's really almost sort of dualistic, got a good god and a bad god, but they also had some concepts of, of, of, of messiahs, basically. Um, so you have all of that feeding into the mix, and, and Islam being, of course, the last, uh, the last monotheistic religion, and really in many ways, basically just a, I'm sorry to say, but it's true, a ripoff of Christianity, and to a lesser degree, Judaism, particularly when it gets to, uh, when it gets to eschatology, as we'll get to here in a bit more, I'm sure. Um, it, it basically, there's an idea that, that, that, that God, in this case, Allah, um, is going to send a deliverer, as you said, the guided one, the one who will be divinely guided, comes sometime after Muhammad, not really another prophet. Um, people make this mistake. The Mati is not really another prophet. He basically restores what Muhammad did, and again, the Islamic belief, I don't believe this, but this is, but many people do, um, they, they, uh, the Mati will restore what Muhammad did and apply it to the whole world. Basically, the Mati will take over the world. Uh, and as you pointed out, it's, it's, it's in Sunni and Shia Islam. The misperception really is it's just in Shia, and it's certainly not. I mean, I came to it by way of Sunnis. I mean, my, my, my doctoral dissertation, my first book were on Sunni Matthism and examples of guys throughout history that, and it's always a guy, sorry ladies, but it's always a guy in Islam. Um, uh, guys who declared themselves the Mati, um, and then, you know, I kind of backed into the Shia end of it by way of comparative, uh, comparative, uh, analysis. But, um, but basically, it's Islamic messianism, and both Sunni and Shia believe there are hadiths, that is, sayings attributed to Muhammad, outside of the Quran, because I mean, I've had, I've had Iranian friends try to tell me, "Oh, the Mati is in the Quran." I'm like, "I don't know. I read through it. I can't find them anywhere in there." Um, so it's really an, it's really an extra-Quranic belief, grew up in the hadiths, these alleged sayings according to Muhammad, and, and there are Sunni and Shia hadiths about, excuse me, about, about the Mati. Pew did a poll that you, if you remember, Pew did that gigantic poll back in 2012. I wrote a couple of articles about it, you probably did too, about different beliefs in the Islamic world, and one of them was, "Do you believe the Mati will return in your lifetime?" That was one of the questions, and, and like 35% of Muslims said yes, and that was, you know, across the gamut of the Islamic world. So, so it's strongly believed in. I mean, I can't remember the date off the top of my head. Pew has a data. I mean, it's strongly believed in places like Turkey, for instance, which is staunchly Sunni and, you know, quasi-secular, at any rate, used to be.

>> Um, so, so basically, it's Islamic messianism. Um, uh, but, you know, as we're, the biggest difference, I think, between Sunni and Shia would be this, which is that although they both believe in the Mati, for the Sunnis, the real one hasn't been here yet. There have been lots of pretenders to the throne, and we'll probably talk about some of them in a bit. I wrote about them, a number of them in my book. Um, there have been a number of guys, mostly unsuccessful, but some successful, who claim to be the Sunni Mati. Um, and the Shia believe that the Mati, uh, and, well, let me back up a bit. The Sunni Mati doesn't have to be related to Muhammad. Doesn't have to be related to Ahl al-Bayt, the family, the prophet, any of that stuff. It's just some guy that will emerge as a very pious Islamic leader, capable of waging jihad successfully enough, basically, to take over the world. Now, he will get a little help from a return prophet, according to the Muslims, called Jesus. Um, but, you know, we could talk more about that in a bit. Uh,

>> Yeah, doesn't, isn't all this connected to, in Jesus when he comes and, you know, starts breaking all the crosses and kills all the pigs and abrogates jizya? This is like all meant to sort of usher in the Mahi, according to, I don't know, Sunni tradition, maybe?

>> Right, they both have that. It's kind of a, it's, it's a little,

>> The hadiths differ on sort of who's, who's actually numero uno and who's second fiddle, whether it's the Mati or Jesus. Um, but in both of them, the main goal of Jesus when he returns, of course, and proclaims that he was a prophet, a Muslim, and we got it wrong all the time, all of us Christians, um, he will, um, his main goal will be to, to kill the Dajjal, to kill the Antichrist, which, I mean, we say Antichrist, really, what it's the deceiver, right? It's the Antichrist figure in Islam. Um, because according to most hadiths, the, the Mati will not be capable of killing the Dajjal. That's Jesus's job. And then the Mati, the Mati will basically rule as the secular ruler of the world. So,

>> Interesting that he can't kill him.

>> Yeah. I mean, that some of the hadiths indicate that. Um, but in the Shia world, the Mati has already been here. He was the 12th descendant, the 12th descendant of Ali after Muhammad. Of course, Muhammad they believe was the prophet. But then Ali, his son-in-law, and his cousin who married his daughter, his oldest daughter. Uh, Ali then becomes the first, what's called the Imam, the rightly guided leader. It's not exactly the same as the Mati, but the Mati comes out of that line. There are 12 of these guys down to the 9th century AD, 873, 874 AD, thereabouts. The last one of the line, and I always forget his name, was Mati, too. You know, you can, you can never tell the Mati's players without a program. Um, Muhammad al-Mahdi, yeah, the last one, the 12th Imam disappeared in about 873, 874 AD. As a, as a historian and a Christian, I think,

>> Let's actually back up and clarify to people the difference between Fivers, Seveners, and Twelvers.

>> Oh, yeah. Okay. The main group of Shia that believed that there were these 12 Imams are thus called Twelvers.

>> And the Imams, I mean, you and I know this, but a lot of people may not know this. So the Imams are basically, the first Imam, I believe, is Ali. Right?

>> Right. Ali is the first.

>> And then the second and third respectively are Hassan and Hussein.

>> Right. Hassan and Hussein, his sons, go to Hussein. Yeah.

>> Right. So then, so it's basically the descendants, believed of Muhammad, because Ali was married to Fatima, his daughter. So the bloodline of Muhammad, it's, they are the Imams. And then,

>> I think what you're going to tell us is between, there's, there's disagreement amongst the Shia if the final Imam ended with the fifth or seventh or 12th.

>> Right. Right.

>> The Fivers split off at Ja'far al-Sadiq, the fifth Imam. The Fivers are known as Zaydis, and they're mostly now in Yemen. When you hear about the Shia in Yemen, you hear about the Houthis, the guys that are launching, were launching missiles that are allied with the Iranians. They are Shia. They're not the same kind of Shia as the Iranians, but they're close enough that the Iranians will help them with missiles and money. Um, and they've been inculcated, partly by the Iranians, uh, to really hate Israel. Um, but they believe that the line stopped after the fifth Imam. And it gets very, very, as you said, esoteric. That's putting it mildly when you're talking about the differences here. But basically, they believe that the line stopped at the fifth Imam, and then he has descendants, and but they aren't, they aren't, they aren't the same level of metaphysical power and infallibility that the 12, uh, Imams are, the ones after,

>> Oh, really?

>> Yeah. And then you have, I mean, they're basically just really good secular rulers, is basically what they are. Uh, after the fifth Imam, because the line runs out, then you, and then you have 12 more. The 12ers are a little more kind of almost supernatural in a sense.

>> Yes, they really are. Yeah, exactly. U, but, but because the Fivers don't believe in a hidden Imam, there is no hidden Imam. The line stops at the fifth one. So we don't have that hidden Imam thing, which is what the 12th Imam becomes for the 12ers.

>> So does that mean for the, does that mean for the Fivers then, that the Mahi is kind of almost like a Sunni kind of Mahi?

>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, very much, very much. And there have been a number of these guys over the history. You know, I looked at these guys, especially when I wrote that book about Ottoman counterinsurgency, because one of the big problems the Ottomans had, Ottomans had were trying to, was trying to pacify Yemen. Uh, it was sort of their Vietnam. They really couldn't deal with it very well, because you'd have these guys crop up and say, you know, well, I'm, uh, I'm the Mati of this age. It's a Mati of the age. It's almost like, you know, Mujaddid, the renewer. It's more like that, that there's an Islamic tradition that every hundred years a renewer of Islam comes. Um, and it often falls into the idea of the Mati, and you'll get guys claiming to be the Mati at the, at the Islamic century, because it coincides, right? But, but those guys in Yemen are basically just, yeah, they're really good, pious warlords, is basically what they are. But they gave the Ottomans fits. Um,

>> How about the Seveners? The Seveners?

>> Yeah.

>> Seveners are the Ismailis. And they, their line breaks, and, and I have to go back. I swear, I can never keep this straight, after Musa al-Kadhim, the seventh Imam. And, you know, there was a dispute whether his son would be the next Imam, or it was his brother. It got, it gets very hairy.

>> What I do find interesting about these Ismailis, though, and I'm sure, I'm sure you know this, is the Hashshashin, the Assassins.

>> Were Ismaili Seveners?

>> Yeah, which is very interesting because, yes, you're right. In the medieval period, people hear the Assassins, the Hashshashin.

>> Hashshashin. I only know that word very well because in Arabic, it still means someone who basically smokes pot.

>> Someone, someone who gets a big bowl of hashish.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> Yeah. Supposedly they did this, and then they would go out, and they were fanatically devoted to their leadership. Uh, they hated the Sunnis, particularly the Seljuk Turks, who ruled the area at the time. Uh, and they were basically, because the Seljuk Turks persecuted them, because the Seljuks were, were Sunni. Uh, there's no love lost between the Shia and the Sunnis, usually throughout history. But,

>> I don't know what I'm seeing here. I'm looking at, I'm looking at these, uh, the comments, and someone keeps putting, "Breaking news: Donald Trump dead."

>> I don't know. We, we should take a moment to look at this, or, uh,

>> Is he dead or just a culted?

>> I don't, I don't know. Maybe he's, he's gone into Mati mode. Um, uh, uh, I'm hoping this is a joke, but let's see anyway, because someone keeps spamming it. Um,

>> All right, I'm going to,

>> I don't think so.

>> Never mind.

>> See, that's why I don't look at these things. All right.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, as you were, anyway, um,

>> The, yeah. Go on about the Seveners.

>> Yeah. And, um, uh, I, before you continue, let me just talk a little bit about the Assassins, because I, I wrote a little bit about them very much, very recently in my book, "Two Swords of Christ." Lots of episodes about them, and I want to actually bring it forward just so, um, so you can work it in into the Mati mode and see. So, for example, the Assassins, to those who don't know, and the, or in Arabic, it's Hashshashin. And, um, again, so the, we know them as the Assassins, that's where we get the English word assassin, because that they, they pioneered that methodology, which is basically, it was an Islamic group, Seveners, Shia group, um, and what they did is, they were very esoteric, and they basically lived up in the mountains of Syria, and Lebanon, and Iraq, and they had what was known as the Sheikh al-Jabal, or the Old Man of the Mountain, and he was the leader of the sect. And what he would do is, and we, and we're really lucky, we know this, because it comes mostly from Marco Polo, the Venetian traveler, in the 14th century, I think. And, um, he passed through that area, and he was, he, he was privy to them, and he spoke to people about them. Um, and the long and short of it is that the, this, this Assassin group would take young men and basically indoctrinate them. And what they would do is, they would get them high on hashish, literally. And once these men were just blitzed out of their brains, because this is, of course, not a normal experience for them. This isn't modern-day Western world where every other day you're stoned. So they didn't know what this was. They really felt like this was another world. They'd wake up, uh, after they were stoned, essentially, and find themselves in a beautiful garden with naked women who were seducing them, naked beautiful women. And then they would wake up, and the Old Man would explain to them that I have given you a taste of Islamic paradise. And of course, that is Islamic paradise, because Islamic paradise is presented with the, the houris, and these beautiful women, and it's sexual, etc., etc. And then the man, the, the Old Man would then tell them, and now, if you obey me as the, as the true, you know, follower of Muhammad, our prophet, as, as, or as what, maybe he presented himself as some sort of Imam figure, um, because they were very devoted to him, the Assassins, his followers, if you follow me and you die, that you will finally go there. So they would become Assassins. They would learn. They would engage in extreme deception. They would worm their way into their target until they trusted them, and they took them into their household. And then at one moment, they would just stab, and they usually used a dagger to kill them, and then they would wait to be killed, because that was the whole point. They want to die and be martyred and go back to that paradise. Okay. So that, that is a Shia group, a, the Seveners. And, um, again, I just thought that was very interesting. And maybe at some point, I'll, I'll tell you what, how the Templars responded to them, because it's also very interesting. But I'll leave it there. And now that I've introduced who the Seveners, by all means, Tim, carry on with telling us some more about the Seveners.

>> Yeah, they arose out of dispute. I'm looking at my chart here because I always forget all these guys. They all rose out of dispute about who was, uh, the pro, who was the, the actual Imam, um, after the time of Ja'far al-Sadiq. And, uh, this, the 12ers, the majority came to accept, um, a guy named Musa al-Kadhim. Uh, but the, there was a group that said, no, we think his brother is actually the, uh, the, the infallible Imam, because they believe these guys are infallible, and was named Isma'il.

>> It's important to take a moment actually and like, you know, really spell that out, um, that they think of them as infallible. You know, it's not just that this is a,

>> A leader or, you know, a pious leader, but, and I once, at some point when we're done with this historical kind of recounting, I'd like you to tie it in and explain. So, how does the Ayatollah relate? Is because he's sort of like the living representation of these guys? Is and does that make him infallible? Or, you know, what I mean? But let's not get ahead of ourselves, unless you want to address that now. But,

>> No, let's come back to that.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Uh, Ismailis. Uh, anyway, so they followed Isma'il. Uh, they were a minority group. They broke off. Uh, and then they, they also developed some similar beliefs to the larger group, which was that then Isma'il's son would come as the, uh, as the, uh, the Mati at the end of time. Uh, but the interesting thing, it's very interesting again that you brought up how violent they used to be, because they really are quite the opposite in the modern world. Um, um, their modern leader is the Aga Khan. Um, and they are, at some point, probably, probably because largely because they got the living daylights beat out of them by the Mongols. Of course, the Mongols come through there a little later, and which I'm sure you've dealt with quite a bit, and beat the living daylights out of everybody. Um, but they, they basically razed, razed the, the Isma'ili fort. You have to, you have to clarify that for,

>> Some such a weird word. Two different words that mean the exact opposite.

>> They utterly destroyed the, the, the strongholds at Alamut and everywhere else. Uh, and the Ismailis were forced, I mean, they were already a minority of a minority, but they're even smaller. Um, and they basically literally sometimes had to go underground where they lived to survive, because not only did the Sunnis hate them, but the other, the 12 Shia didn't like them very much either, especially once you get official 12erism established in Iran under the Safavids, starting in the 16th century. But, um, but basically, they are a very small group. I think there's maybe seven or eight million of them in the world now. But they are, they are one of the groups that I sometimes adduce as a moderate Islamic group, because they really, based on everything I read and see, uh, and, and hear from them, they have, they have, they have gotten rid of the notion of violent jihad. They have redefined jihad to mean things like, you know, social welfare and, um, uh, they're big on that. There's a sizable, uh, membership of them in East Africa. They work on building desalination plants and stuff, and a lot of them are pretty well off, because they're usually, a lot of them are doctors and higher ranking.

>> Well, what, what Middle Eastern nation are they mostly concentrated in?

>> Uh, Middle East, there really aren't very many in the Middle East. Um, there's some in, there's some in Lebanon, there's some in Syria. Uh, most, a lot of them live in Europe. Uh, there's a, there's a again, a sizable minority in East Africa. I don't actually know how they wound up in East Africa.

>> East Africa, like where?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like, like Tanzania and Kenya. There's, there's, there's a minority community of them in, in that area. And there's also some of, some in India.

>> Uh, some of them relocated to India. But, um, but anyway, they're very interesting. They are very similar to the 12ers in a lot of ways, but they're much smaller. Again, the 12ers are by far the largest group.

>> All right, let's get to the 12ers now.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The 12ers. So, uh, Iran, of course, is what, 98% 12er, something like that. Uh, Iraq is majority 12er Shia also. Um, and, uh, Azerbaijan is majority 12er Shia, right? Uh, Lebanon probably is, although they haven't done a census in Lebanon since, what, 1976. Um, certainly probably a plurality, if not a majority of people in Lebanon, I would argue, probably are, uh, 12er Shia at this point, and certainly Hezbollah is the weaponized edge of that, of that group. Uh, and there's also a majority, I believe, in Bahrain, of course, Bahrain's tiny, but, so, I mean, mainly we're talking Iraq and Iran and Azerbaijan. So, um, uh, and, and people get confused a little bit. Yes, Iran is Persian, and, and Iraq is Arab, but they are still the majority of the same religion. And in fact, many of the, many of the holy places and many of the high-ranking Ayatollas in 12er Shiism are, are Arabs in Iraq, southern Iraq.

>> Yeah, I think people confuse. They think Shia and Sunni is Arab and Persian.

>> Right. Right. Yeah.

>> You know, and, um,

>> It's, it's not. I mean, I can see why they think that, because most Persians are Shia, and most Arabs are Sunnis, but,

>> Yeah, it's above and beyond that.

>> Right. So, um, yeah, and, and Iran itself was not, as I alluded to earlier, Iran itself was not majority Shia until the 16th century. U, there were pockets of Shiism in the region, and there were some interactions between them and the Shia in Yemen, who, again, turned out a little bit different. But, um, after the Safavid dynasty took over in 1501, 1902, in Iran, they basically forcibly converted the whole country to 12erism, and it's been 12er Shia ever since. Now, when you say forcibly, was there violence involved?

>> There was sometimes, because a lot of the people in Iran, uh, were, you know, pious Sunnis and didn't want to switch. But the 12ers, uh, as you know, excuse me, the Safavids, as you know, were not anybody to brook much opposition. So, uh, there was a lot of, a lot of forceful conversions. Um, and, you know, they do seem to have been, the Safavids do seem to have been true believers in this, but I think there's also probably an element that, um, they wanted to differentiate themselves from the Ottomans. Um, the Ottomans being strict Sunnis, and the Ottoman Caliph, the Ottoman Sultan eventually claiming to be the Caliph, and, and in order to differentiate themselves, um, at least religiously, from the, excuse me, from the Ottomans.

>> It's much better to be something besides Sunni, because if you're Sunni, then you have to sort of like argue why you should not be subject to the Ottoman Caliph.

>> Right. All right. Okay. Well, I think this is a good little, uh, you know, summary for who, what, you know, who of, of Mahiism, especially the Shia and Sunni manifestations. So, let's now do a quick recounting, because I know you've written a lot about this, of, um, you know, concrete historical examples of both Sunni and Shia Mahis or Mahi claimants,

>> throughout history, and basically, you know, you can even just give me one or two key stories, and ideally, you know, what, what's to be learned from them. Um, you know, let's even, let's start with the Sunnis, because I believe that is the majority of them, and I myself have come through a lot of them, and,

>> you know, I can't, in all my books, even though they deal with, you know, Islamic, Western, Christian warfare,

>> a lot of these groups did have that Mahi component, such as Ibn Tumart, I believe.

>> So you can talk about him, and of course, you know, the, who was it? The Mad, the Mad Mahi, and was that in Somalia or,

>> Sudan? Uh,

>> Then that's more recent, but yeah, give us some, some solid examples. Um, you can even do one of, one of each, if you want, or whatever.

>> Well, I would say the three most important Sunni ones would be the one first mentioned, Ibn Tumart. Um, he was, he actually overthrew the Almoravids. Uh, he was the,

>> Almohads. That's right.

>> Yes. Almohads.

>> Yes. Um, yeah, North. This is, we're talking late 11th, early 12th century. So,

>> I always confuse those two, because they're so very similar. They're North African dynasties. One overthrows the other.

>> And they both enter in Spain on the pretext that we're going to, you know, bring back true Islam.

>> And so first it's the Almoravids, and then, which, by the way, the word's interesting. It's, it's al-Murabitun, the, the Ribat, you know, they were,

>> And, um, but they also were very pious and jihadist, essentially. And, um, if anyone's seen the El Cid movie, the old one with Charlton Heston, I think it's the Almoravids,

>> And, you know, they come in dressed in black, and just their eyes are visible, and, okay. But then they become accused of being too soft, and then the Almohads, who are led by this man you're talking about, became a Mahi. And, yeah, Almohad is al-Muwahhidun, which is, when you see a Muslim doing the one finger, you know, they, they like to translate it as mono, mono, monotheism, right? But it's actually kind of a, pretty provocative thing, you know. It's actually, I think, an attack on Christianity, saying that God's not a trinity, right? But so that goes way back then. Anyway, so that's what it is. And, yeah, carry on with this, may I?

>> Yeah. Um, so, I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't get covered in a whole lot of history classes. It slips through the cracks, but it's very,

>> Everything else that matters.

>> Yeah, that's exactly true. Trust me, I teach college history, Ray. I preach into the choir. Um,

>> Yeah. Uh, he popped up in the late, he died in 11:30, I believe it was, uh, so that's medieval, medieval history. Uh, but he basically proclaimed himself the Mati during the reign of the, um, of the, as you said, the Almoravids, the Almorabatun. Uh, he thought they were, it's, it's very similar. You, this is a pattern you get with these guys. Well, the current rulers are bad Muslims, and here's X, Y, and Z why they are, you know, um, and I have been sent by Allah to restore true Islam. So, um, and then you get stuff like, I mean, how do you prove, like, well, these guys tend to have dreams and visions that the prophet appeared to them and, you know, vested them with the power, and kind of argue with a dream and a vision, right? Um, okay, I'll take your word for it, I guess. But I mean, and then, of course, this is never going to work unless the guy's very charismatic, right? So clearly, these guys are somehow very charismatic, because they convince people that they have been sent by Allah.

>> So, um, and, you know, there's a lot of factors. There's always some degree of economic, political discontent, and there's some fissure in the society that they exploit, which, of course, makes a lot of sense too.

>> But, but the religious element is still very important. Anyway, Ibn Tumart, basically, to make a long story short,

>> created a guerrilla movement. Uh, they retreated to the Atlas Mountains down in Morocco. Uh, the government went after them, couldn't, couldn't root them out, and they basically, you know, sort of like the Viet Cong, they, they, but in a much more religious sense, they built up, or the Taliban when the Soviets or, you know, we were there, uh, much more probably relevant, um, uh, example, they built up support among the populace, exploited resentment at the rulers, and basically eventually took over the country. Um, and then, and then probably, it turns out, you know, the records are a bit spotty from a thousand years ago, but it turns out, uh, Ibn Tumart had probably died before this jihad was finished, and he had, and you, you often get this with guys that are the Mati. Well, you have some guy who proclaims himself the Caliph of the Mati, right?

>> And he keeps on fighting in his name. Didn't bother to mention that he died about two years earlier, but, but, you know, the dead Mati served his purpose, because of course, when you're a dead Mati, um, uh, it kind of puts a crimp in your claiming you were the Mati. Although in the hadiths, the Mati will reign for, you know, what, seven or 40 years or something, and then die a natural death. But this was a little quicker than that. So anyway, they took over the country, and, you know, as you pointed out, they then, they then also invaded up into Iberia, which was the thing to do if you were a Muslim in North Africa, I guess. Um, until 1212, and you got your butts kicked. But, um,

>> Tell me this. Um, so because what I remember about the Almohads,

>> is they were really a jihadi organization par excellence. I mean, they were what we would call, you know, in other words, they were what ISIS would just love and look up to. In fact, they try to follow them and use the same formulations.

>> If ISIS had 30, 30 or 40,000 warriors or something.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, so what would, was there something to Mahdism that somehow funneled into or fueled a sort of jihadist fervor that was above and beyond normal jihadist sentiment amongst normal, you know, caliphates and sultanates?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's that's another key element of of a successful Mati. Well, there's degrees of that. Of course, a Mati's jihad is, I think you could say, by definition, the most powerful jihad that a, that a Muslim could could engage in, because it's believed that it's, it's, it's Allah ushering in the end times. And I mean, even these guys, you know,

>> So can we say that the Almohads thought this was the end times when they were living?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They thought that, or they thought certainly that eventually they would take over the entire Islamic world, and then, you know, they probably didn't know much about America or something. Certainly they didn't, or China, but they certainly expected to take over the entire Islamic world, because at least his followers did, because they truly believed he was the Mati. So yes,

>> excuse me. It's very, it's very much the case that I, I don't think, I don't think there's any ideology, sub-ideology in Islam that produces a more fervent jihad than Mahdism.

>> And that's saying something, right? Because jihad's already pretty fervent.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> So, exactly.

>> So, aside from Ibn Tumart, any other notable worth mentioning? You said the,

>> in Africa, but on the other side, Muhammad Ahmad of Sudan.

>> Muhammad Ahmad of Sudan. Now, this one's very well researched. I mean, this is, and this is to relate to another question you asked me. This is how I got into being interested in Mahdism. I was just doing, you know, Islamic history at Ohio State,

>> and, um, and, uh, I started studying, I took a class, I took a class from a, from a Sudanese professor, really nice guy, Ahmed Sikaire, and he, uh, we did a class on jihads in Africa. Uh, uh, the, the Sokoto Caliphate and Usman dan Fodio, and then various other jihads in Africa. But I was really fascinated by, uh, the one in Sudan. This is in 1881, 1885. Muhammad Ahmad proclaimed himself the Mahdi. The Sudan, which is just south of Egypt, was technically part of the Ottoman Empire. Um, it really was on the very fringes, however. Uh, and, um, I was very interested in it because the intersection between the Sudanese and then the British are involved from Egypt, and then the Ottomans are also involved. And basically, this guy, um, same sort of pattern as with Ibn Tumart and some other guys that I don't have time to talk about. Uh, you know, the Ottomans are bad rulers, and the Egyptians are their lackeys, and they're all lackeys of the, of the, of the hated British Christians. Why are they working with these Christians? Um, and, uh, the, the, the Ottomans, they're bad Muslims. They smoke hookahs, and they sometimes drink alcohol. What is wrong with them? Uh, plus the big thing was the Ottomans, at the behest of the British, were interdicting the slave trade.

>> Because the British were trying to horn in, and, you know, because the British had abolished the slave trade decades ago.

>> And the Ottomans were going along with it, which not real Muslims. Yeah.

>> Right. Well, yeah. Exactly. Because under, under strict Islamic law, you can enslave non-Muslims. That was the, that was the Sudanese understanding. And here are the Ottomans saying, "No, no, we have to stop doing this." And Muhammad Ahmad said, "Oh, well, then just jihad time." Uh, and all, again, visions, visions.

>> The nerve trying to abolish slavery, you know.

>> Right. Right. But, you know, let me ask, and I didn't mention this with them, but, but, uh, a lot of these guys are Sufis.

>> Okay. I'm glad you brought that up, because this is really,

>> I'm glad I brought it up, too.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Because this is really interesting, because in the, in the popular imagination, the word Sufi, it means you're just this like, you're the most peaceful, loving, you know, you're the model Muslim that the West wants, right?

>> But even, you're going to tell us about, um, you know, you're going to disabuse us about that in the context of Mahdism, but I myself, in my studies and research, I've noticed that, uh, even outside the context of Mahdism, a lot of Sufis are amongst the most jihadist, brutal, and savage. You know, one prime example is, um, you know, the famous anecdote where after the Battle of Hattin in 1187, and Saladin decides he's going to decapitate the knights of the military orders, the, the Templars and the Hospitallers,

>> and he's, he, he wants to see who, who will do it, and so all the, the records, the primary sources talk about all these Sufis who were just so eager and rolled up their sleeves and couldn't wait to start carving heads off. Okay. So, yeah, please disabuse us about this notion that Sufism is this wonderful, you know, tolerant form of Islam.

>> Yeah. I, I don't know. It's like people think that they're these guys that levitate on, I think they confuse them with Indian fakirs or whatever they're called. They're floating around.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they conflate.

>> They're floating around with loincloths, are, and, you know, reciting mantras or something. I'm like, no, that's, you're conflating genres there. Um, no, you're exactly right. Sufis quickly, kind of people like say, a third branch of Islam, but that's not really true. Sufis, I don't know, is there a good analogy in Christianity? They're almost like charismatic Christians, in a sense. You can have charismatic Catholics, you can have charismatic Baptists, you can have charismatic Lutherans, although we tend to throw holy water on them. Um, you know, charismatic, basically someone that says they have, or Pentecostals, someone that says they have a direct line to God. Okay? It doesn't need to be mediated through the Bible, or through the pastor, or the priest, or anything. Um, and so Sufis are kind of like that. They believe in a direct conduit to Allah, and, um, you know, and a lot of Sufis are good, pious guys, and they're just trying to pray and reach Allah that way, but then some of them go off the deep end, and you even get, like, like, like the, the Rifa'i in Egypt do that weird stuff, like they'll stick skewers through their skin and,

>> And I always tell people, you know what, there aren't just snake handlers in the backwoods of Kentucky. Um, there's some of the Rifa'i in Egypt do snake handling. They pick up poison snakes. Yeah.

>> Dance around with them. And if you get bitten, well, that just means you didn't have enough faith. What's wrong with you?

>> Um, but the Sufi, the Sufi, I mean, that's the extreme, but we're talking about extremes here. You're right. Some of them, they tend to go to extremes, like that Billy Joel song. And, um, they, they often, not often, but a lot of times will go to extremes in terms of jihad. Like, for instance, some of the most ardent, um, opponent, proponents of jihad in the Ottoman, in the Ottoman government, the Ottoman, uh, soldiery were the Bektashi,

>> the Bektashi Sufis. So, um,

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, so anyway,

>> I think, I think,

>> I think the lesson here is, you know, Sufism in and of itself has this sort of mystical, esoteric component of trying to transcend and reach God, including through their little whirling dervishes, right? Um, but that does not negate the essence and the origin of Islam, which is to say, there's a very, you know, harsh, draconian, you know, intolerant, violent streak to Islam. So whatever manifestation it has, including more mystical sides, will still still have aspects of the original Islam. Um, of course, and you can see this in, in Christianity and other religions as well. Another reason that, that Sufism, a lot of these Islamic, these guys who proclaim themselves the Mati come out of the Sufi ranks, besides the mysticism, which of course is probably key, um, is also that the Sufi orders, the Sufi Tarikat, tended to provide like a ready-made core of followers. So, so you've got already a devoted, somewhat hierarchical group of people that if you can plug yourself in at the top, oh, I'm not just the, the Sufi leader, I am also the Mati, then you've also got a, you often got a ready-made soldiery to to fight for you. So, um, yeah, so Muhammad Ahmad, Tumart had been a Sufi, I forget which order. Uh, Muhammad Ahmad in, in Egypt, or Sudan, excuse me, belonged to two different Sufi orders, and he got kicked out of one because, you know, he started telling the guy, telling his master that he was having these dreams, again, the prophet appearing to him, vesting him with his power, and he's like, uh, you need to go, go bathe in the Nile or something, dunk your head in the Blue Nile. Um, but again, um, the guy's, guy clearly had charisma. U, he convinced people this was true. A small following at first, but then he, again, what does he do? He exploits a lot of, uh, a lot of extant, uh, resentments against the Ottomans and the Egyptians. Okay. Yeah. Well, we did make money off the slave trade. And you're saying we, because again, they would go further south into Africa and enslave people that were non-Muslims, Africans that were non-Muslims. Go back, sell them in the slave trade. Made a lot of money off that. Um, um, a lot, some of them grew tobacco, and, you know, the Ottomans, the, they're trying to, the British are trying to get the Ottomans to tamp down. That's that's a much lesser issue, but, but basically, it was, um, a lot of it was really, really a lot of it was sort of racist, in that, you know, well, you know, the, the Sudanese are black, and the Ottomans are not.

>> Right.

>> They're like, well, who, who are these guys? And they don't even speak Arabic. The, the Sudanese speak Arabic. The Ottomans don't even speak Arabic. Why are we being ruled by people that can't even speak our language? Well, there's another element to this, um, about the racist element. So, okay, most people don't know this, but the word, you know this, of course, the, the country Sudan is an Arabic word, which literally means "land of the blacks."

>> Blacks.

>> But the irony is, a lot of the, the Sudanese people, whom the Arabs refer to as blacks, "land of the blacks," don't see themselves as black, because they, their first language is Arabic, right?

At least in North Sudan. And they're Muslim. So, a lot of them actually uh don't think of themselves as black. And that's why, and I'm trying to clarify when you were talking about the Mahi in Sudan being angry at the Ottomans for abolishing or trying to abolish slavery at the behest of the colonial powers, that's because the Sudin were enslaving other blacks. Right.

Right. Right.

Exactly. Deeper south into Africa in Africa who were not presumably Muslim. Right.

What is Yeah. Yeah. So uh you know these are the little nuggets of history that most people are so unaware of when they start complaining about you know white men in slavery and you know it's you know here you have an entire Islamic jihadist movement that arose in the context of trying to bring slavery back.

And it was performed by blacks against other blacks.

Right. Right. Yeah.

That's pretty amazing that in the textbooks.

Yeah. But he was successful. I mean, he did win. I mean, the the famous story of course I got a picture on my website. I went to we went to London a few years ago. I got my picture by the statue of General Gordon. General Gordon statue. General Gordon.

Another Charlton H moment.

Charlton H always has the cool roles, right?

He's always in the So, this is now two movies of Charlton H against the Mandy. I only realize that now.

Yes. And that's right. El Sid and Yes. Yes. Folks, if you've never seen it, cartoon, I think 1962, I believe.

Um, it's really good movie.

It is really good. Although the funny part,

Does it capture Does it capture the actual history?

It does. The only thing it really doesn't get right is it has him meeting the Mati. He never actually met the Mati. They they did exchange letters.

Um but yeah, once you get past

Wasn't the Matty Lawrence Olivier.

Lawrence Olivier and Blackface.

You know why he got that role though? He just a few years earlier played Athell. He had played Athell and Athell on stage. He had played what's his name? The Moore.

Yeah. So

More black face. Yeah.

Couldn't really have a black actor do it back then. It's kind of funny. And but it's still a really good movie. Um but of course H had worked for the Ottomans earlier, a few years earlier. And H ironically too, you probably know this, a lot of people don't. The guy's an amazing interesting guy. He had worked the the the uh the Manchu dynasty had hired him as a lieutenant colonel to help them fight during the um what was it? the Taipei rebellion to help them put down the Taipang rebellion.

Um and so and then he he wound up getting promoted to general and then the Ottomans had hired him 187. Right.

What's that?

You're talking about Gordon, not H.

Oh, did I say H?

Yeah.

Just to clarify,

They're the same to me. See?

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know.

Charles Gordon. H is not that old. Sorry. Even Even though he played Moses. Um uh yeah, he had he had worked for the Ottomans as the governor of Equatoria Province, which is down in that same region. So anyway, and then then then when the Matthew cropped up, they wanted some help from the British. The British didn't want to send any soldiers, but they said, "Well, here take take Gordon. He knows the area. He'll figure this out." And he had helped the Chinese fight off rebellions. So he was sent down to he was sent from uh they sent him from London to Cairo and then up the Nile to Cartoum. and he organized the defense of the city and but they were eventually overwhelmed by the Matis forces and Gordon was beheaded supposedly against the express orders of the Mati who had said he wanted Gordon taken alive but

You know can't keep these Sufi jihadists in control when they got their blood up right so they chopped his head off um so so yeah so that was interesting and then and then he died a few years later excuse me a few months later probably of malaria

Um and again he had a kaleiff kept it secret for a while and then finally said, "Well, the Matthew has left instructions with me." And they did rule Sudan until 1898

When Kitner came back with an army and then a young lieutenant named Winston Churchill under his command and then they they took care of

The River Wars.

The River Wars.

Yeah, that's an interesting book. I once made an undergraduate class

Volumes, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. I I made an undergraduate class read that once. They hated me for it. Uh

Well, that's where we the famous phrase um you know uh piety in the Muslims like rabies in a dog and

The Mohamadans. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He has a very lots of unflattering um observations about Islam.

So that was the second big one. Ray the other one that I think we should mention probably is much more recent was 1979.

Juan Elotabi a guy and this was in Saudi Arabia. a guy named Jahim Elotabi proclaimed his brother-in-law Muhammad Al- Katani the Mati. And I always wonder, did he check with his brother-in-law first? Um because basically if you if you come out claiming to be the Mati or in in a group that's following a Mati, you better make sure you win. Otherwise, uh in the famous words of

In the famous words of Rush Limbbo, you're going to quickly assume room temperature.

Exactly. So yeah, so they they they took over with the help from some chaps in Bin Laden Construction Company. Ironically enough, they um they occupied the great mosque in Mecca for I don't know what was it, a month or so, few weeks, three weeks, a month. This was in November of 79. This is about the this was about the same time the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. So and it was the same year that the revolution took place in Iran. So, I mean, this kind of gets swept under the rug sometimes, but

Yeah.

But yeah, they they occupied the Great Mosque.

They were not connected, huh? I mean, it's coincidence that they're both in 79.

There was a lot of stuff going down in 79, right? So

I don't know. I was a sophomore in college. I don't remember much, but um but uh yeah, it was very interesting. I mean, they did take over for about three weeks a month, and the Saudis did not know how to deal with it. And um but it you know they they take this stuff seriously. I didn't mention this with like like Muhammad Ahmed um the government the the government then has to put stuff out as did the Saudis saying well this guy's really not the Mati and here's why. Like for instance uh with with Muhammad Ahmed the Ottoman the Ottoman kadis the Ottoman judges and government officials were putting out fatwas saying well this guy's not the Mati and here's a list of reasons why. One of the reasons why is he's black. The Mati can't be he's from Arabia. He can't be a black guy from Sudan. I mean really they they actually said that.

Oh, I believe that.

Yeah. So that sort of thing, you know, the Mati will not come from Sudan. And they had a whole list of stuff. So when when Ma when this guy in Saudi Arabia is claiming to be the Mati, his brother-in-law basically claiming it for him. Um and he may have convinced him that he was. I don't think his brother-in-law was totally right in the head, but anyway. Um the the the uh uh bin Bos was alive back then, the famous Saudi what uh chief chief cleric,

Chief jurist and and he wrote fat. They would write fatwas and publish them in the Saudi newspapers going well these guys are this guy is not the Mati and here's why you know and again drawing on what hadiths the hadith say this the hadith say this this guy doesn't magic so I don't know but because they they taken over the mosque and they were they were they were they were uh broadcasting from the loudspeakers into the into into Mecca uh that the mati has come rise up and overthrow the Saudis and that sort of stuff. So the Saudis didn't couldn't handle it. So basically they hired the French. So the French special forces came in um you know converting to Islam on the flight on the way in uh so they could enter Mecca and then they went into Mecca and took care of them and they were all captured or killed and the ones that weren't killed during the takeback of the mosque were put on were publicly beheaded I think a few months later on Saudi TV as an example to anybody that might might want to be the Matthew. So,

So this example, this was kind of like, uh, snuffed out pretty early.

Yeah, it only went out about three weeks, but yeah, but I mean, it was in the main mosque in Mecca, so the Saudis got really spooked about it.

And it's in our lifetime. I find that pretty notable.

79.

So, um, and you get a lot of other minor guys like I I mean, I got a one of my blog posts I wrote about this. I got a some guy in some guy was arrested last fall in Turkey because as I said t there's a very strong belief in the matthew in Turkey believe it or not according to

Pol that's ironic because Turkey is often presented of course it's Sunni but it's also presented as very highly secular.

Yeah, I know. Ain't that weird? Seems weird.

Um but this guy, I forget this guy's name. I got a big blog post about him on my website a while back. It was I think it was October last year. This guy was arrested along with, I don't know, 20 30 followers or something because he was preaching that he was the Mati. And oh, and get this, not only was he preaching he was the Mati, he had people out digging in places looking for the ark of the covenant.

Because really, there's a there's a hadith that says when the Mati comes, he will bring forth as proof

The ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant.

Interesting.

Yeah. I'd never heard of a Matthew guy trying to pull an Indiana Jones, but this this guy's this guy's guys really were. It was really So, um, yeah, in the Shia world, ironically, you would think because it's such a strong belief in 12ism that there would be a lot more of them, but as I believe you said earlier, there really aren't. And I think it's because there's more institutional safeguards on it.

Uh, you know, it's

Which almost means that they take it more seriously.

Yes, I think that's true. Therefore, it's not so easily um exploited by this or that random character.

Right?

I mean, in Sud in in Sunni Islam, it's almost, I think, become the point where, excuse me, where if you are ipso facto declared a nutcase, if you try to claim you're the Mati or you've seen the Matthew or talked to the Matthew or anything like that. And again, I've got this on my website. I went back and you know every every year or two some there's guy some guy in some guy in Riad said he was the Mati and he's quickly ushered off to a mental hospital you know or some guy in in in Jalalabad saying he's the mati and he's quickly offered ushered off to a mental hospital never to be seen again so um in Shiism I mean look the go read you can find it online go read the um go read the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran on. I believe it's article two says this government only exists until such time as the 12th of returns and takes over the reigns of power basically.

Wow.

Now, do they all believe that? Well, you better if you don't believe it, you probably shouldn't say it publicly, right? I mean, even if you're an Ayatollah and there's, you know, people think the Ayatollas are all the lock step comm guys and and whoever you know, whoever the supreme leader is. Now, I mean, you know, as you know, there's there's hundreds of Ayatollas at a minimum. There might be more than that if you count the ones in Iraq and Iran. Um, and a lot of the ones a lot of the ones especially in Iraq were not oppo were opposed to the vile faki which is the which is the the rulership of the vile the rulership of the excuse me the rulership of the fake the rulership of the Islamic clerics that kini kani not kani kiy basically brought up but again people make a big deal out of how how that's that was some new thing well it was new thing in a way but really if you go back to the safavidids again who converted as I said converted Iran to um to 12ism. That's pretty much the same thing they believe. So, it's not totally new. It's just that it's sort of fallen out of belief under the Kajars and then under under under both Shaws. Um and then it was brought back with a vengeance. But but yeah, I mean I if somebody cropped up in Iran and claimed to be the Matti, they probably put him in jail quicker than they would in Saudi Arabia, you know, because

Because these guys, and again, this relates to this whole thing of them with nuclear weapons. I mean, I do think there are some Ayatollas that would like Iran to have nukes in order to nuke Tel Aviv. Probably especially now I think there are some but I don't think that that is again it's kind of hard to poll Ayatollas and see what they believe but but based on what I've read and looked at what some of the other guys have said some of the some of the other ayatollas are not like that um and you know again if I had

Well, wasn't the last umi wasn't he actually against nuclear weapons story at least

Yeah, I think he was but you know I don't believe that story that there was a fatwa against their use Yeah, that's that's what I heard as well. So, actually this is a good time to um introduce a very important topic

Uh related to what we're talking about and it's the concept of tea

And um and how it relates to all of this. And let me just by way of backdrop for whoever doesn't know what I'm talking about. Teaya is is a doctrine in Islam that permits Muslims to dissemble their beliefs, their identity as Muslims um when feeling threatened by non-Muslims. And most people associate it with Shia, but of course um Sunnis do it as well. It's really an Islamic doctrine. And there's two three um very clear Quran verses among them 328. Um but but definitely we can say that the Shia perfected it because of their particular historical circumstances because they were the minority throughout history. They were the ones surrounded by violent Sunnis. So they had more reason than the Sunnis historically to actually dissemble,

Right?

And um there's all sorts of and and this is what I'm I'd like you to talk about, but I know that the doctrine of tea and all you know kits man and all these different concepts of basically uh you know deception internal internalizing everything um is very rife I think amongst the Shia communities. And I remember I read a book written by a scholar. I have his book. It's an Arabic book. It's all about tea. It's a thick book and most of it of course as you'd expect deals with the various Shia sects. He also says that this is a doctrine that you know both Sunnis and Shia follow but it's very uh strongly connected with the Shia. So to that end, um I'm curious what your thoughts are about how tea plays into everything we're talking about, including the importance and relevance of the Mahi for the Shia in Iran and um how has it shaped, you know, Shia strategy, visavv, the west historically and u and and I and this came to my mind because of what you said, you know, the fatwa that supposedly Kani had written against a nuclear weapon. Well, you know, one wonders, is this just propaganda? Is this tea, you know, for western consumption and whatnot. So, what what are your thoughts on the role of concealment and dissimulation in a word tea in the context of Shiism in general and um Mahiism in particular?

Yeah. Yeah. As you you're exactly right. Of course it has now become a a a something the Sunnis do particularly Sunnis basically any Muslim Sunni or Shia that are a minority somewhere have latched on to this and of course where Muslims a minority and I think this is going on a lot in Europe and the United States

Right

Um I think and again, not all Muslims but if you want to be a bad actor and hide what you're doing you've got religious sanction to do it

Right

Yes, you're right it did develop

It's you know, it's not I don't I think a lot of people think it's like the Muslim sits there and consciously says okay I am doing I I think it's just it's become so internalized. It's just part of the culture, you know, that without even even and I and this is why, for example, and I hate to say this, but a lot of people from a lot of Arabs and people from the Islamic world who are not even pious seem to have very little problems with deception. So my point is it just seems to have like wormed its way as part of the culture. And if deception will help me in any way, shape, or form, then of course I'll do it. That kind of thinking.

Yeah, I think I think you're exactly right. I mean, I think you see that all over the place.

Um, and especially, you know, practice takia when you want to get a visa. Um, and then after that, well, you know, maybe you don't have to do it quite so much because then

Because then well-meaning liberals will protect you. But, um, so it did develop among the Shia as you said because again, they were for the mo for much of history, they were in the minority. Uh, but it has spread to other Muslims. Well, the big thing with Iran I think that it makes it almost impossible to to trust them on matters of negotiation.

Um, because you never know if they're being square with you.

Um, you know, I mean, I guess you could argue that for any negotiator. So, um, but but again, like you said, it's it's it's it's not just religious I think in these people's views, it's cultural too. Let me actually interject and just offer another fun anecdote and then I'll I'll let you elaborate because it deals exactly with what we're talking about and it's back with the assassins. Remember earlier I was telling you the hasheen and there's a interesting little story with the Templars. Um, and so this is it's actually revolves around I think tea. So basically

It's very interesting in William of uh William of Ty Chronicle of the Crusades very indispensable. He gives us this story. It's actually in other primary sources as well. But basically the story is and the way William, you know, and William's a good I like him. He's he's very, you know, he's indispensable if you want to know anything about the first crusade and the second. But anyway, he he talks about the old man in the mountain and he talks about the sheh and the assassins and he really presents them in a very negative light and he at one point says they were like to put it in our parlance what he's saying is they were amongst the most radical of all Muslims. Okay. But then he has a story where all of a sudden the sheh the old man in the mountain had a revelation. He read the gospels and he was just uh, you know, he was he was just overcome by how the truth of it and he and he wanted to convert and he and his entire the hashim were but were ready to convert to Christianity. So he sent a delegation to the king of Jerusalem. I think it's Amalik at the time and uh and and the delegation says look we want to become Christians. We're we're done with Islam. We see the lights. Um, the only thing we ask is please um make us uh cancel the treat the the tribute we are required to pay to the Templars

Because what had happened earlier is the assassins sent an assassin to kill um a Templar or or some a higher up Christian somewhere near their region up north. And at that point when they learned about this, the Templars just invaded and went up the mountain and completely besieged and terrorized them and would not let up until the old man of the mountain actually agreed to pay tribute to the Templars. So that was going on. So the emissaries are now telling the king of Jerusalem, if you can just cancel that, uh, we will all become Christian.

Okay. So now the funny thing is the king he agreed and in his mind and even he even reasoned that even if the templars won't cancel it I'll pay it you know it wasn't that much obviously and because he wanted them to become Christians and become his allies.

So then they leave to go tell the good news to the old man in the mountain and then this oneeyed Templar knight comes out of nowhere and kills them all. All right. And he's I think his name is Walter, but he's always described as oneeyed knight. And um and then the king just flips out and he's angry and he tries he throws him in prison. And and this anecdote has always been used up until now as an example of how uh the knights of the temple were seen as these loose cannons. Uh and and that and at the time people like William of Tier and so forth attire, they said that this was also an example of how these the Templars don't want peace between Muslims and Christians. They don't even want to help Christianity because look, these guys were going to become Christians. They were going to become our aid. They just exist, you know, for their own benefit. They want them to see permanent war, etc., etc. Now, what I find interesting is that no one has ever said this, but I've written a whole chapter in my book, Two Swords of Christ, because this is where I talk about this particular event. What I find interesting is at the same time, you learn that the Templars at this time, more than any other crusader group, were actually they also had a a sort of elite intelligence unit. So they weren't just warriors. They were also they would actually try to learn everything about the enemy. They would learn the language. Some of them spoke Arabic. They studied Islam. So I wonder to what extent that this Walter, this oneeyed knight was basically he just saw this as complete tea. This idea that hey, we're all going to convert. All we have to

Yeah. And he wanted to like nip it in the

Saw through it with one eye. A oneeyed man can see the truth.

Exactly. Exactly. and and then the whole thing kind of blows over and and the king kind of releases him and there's no but it's also interesting because the sheh the old man in the mountain you if you really were going to convert to Christianity and you really were compelled are you really going to let this stop you but of course it did stop him and he didn't become Christian etc etc so um there's a little anecdote for you before you elaborate on the doctrine of tea in the context of mahiism in in Shia Iran

Well, I I think it's, you know, based on of course what we've been talking about when you when Matthew movements start out, math movements start out, they always start out as minority movements and usually some sort of like protest movement uh and you to some degree you have to hide what you're doing. I mean Muhammad Muhammad Aan in Sudan created cells so did Iban Tumar. I mean, basically

The Matthew himself is in occultation. He's hiding.

Well, yeah, the real Mati is.

Yeah, they're all about I mean, the whole point is these guys are all about hiding, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, no, that's right. Yeah, you're right. You're right. The whole thing is prefaced on somebody that you can't see.

Whether you got one eye or two,

Right?

Guess you need three like Doctor Strange developed. But, um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, in a Shia context of course I mean I was referring to Sunni earlier but basically uh you have to keep it secret um because um you you don't know who you can trust. Uh and then um I mean I think that's what it boils down to. I mean we we never really got into any examples. It was my fault. You would ask for examples of Shia u of Shia Matthews. Uh the most successful one I can think of ironically was not a 12 one. It was a seven one. It was um it was the Fatimid Caliphate,

You know, which ruled Egypt in the Middle East for what a couple hundred years. I mean, they took over in Egypt. Interestingly enough,

They were they were seven or Shia that came originally from North Africa

And and migrated all the way over to Egypt and they basically took over and it was a really weird even form of Shiism. I think was weird because you had the Fatimids who took their name from Fatima,

Daughter of Muhammad. Yeah.

Yeah. Ali's wife. They they they basically um I I forget who exactly their first their first uh their first caiff was, but they basically and they use the term caiff instead of imam, which was interesting because caiff is usually a term the Sunnis use for the leader. Um, they um how to explain this? This is so weird. They took over ruled they ruled Egypt for many years. They also at times rolled up into the into into the Levand. They um they they believe that their leaders were basically rightly guided by God. Although if you counted all of them, you would have had more than seven. So, but but they were they were very she in that regard. But um when they first took over, when they first took over, they basically had to hide what they were doing and they had to kind of act like um they kind of had to act like um uh Sunnis because the majority of Egypt of course was Sunni and it always stayed that way. Another good example is the Abbassids. Interestingly enough,

Before we leave the Fatimids, because

I have a little point to make that builds on what you just said.

Okay. Um, which is interesting because are you speaking of the Fatimids, are you familiar with Hak the mad khalif?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The destroyed the church of the holy separ.

Right. And and according to uh al-maki the historian, 30,000 other churches if if he still believed. So he definitely destroyed a slew of churches including the holy supplr. But now what's interesting is um you know and you probably know this but the way he's presented he's known as the mad khif because how else can we make sense of this guy destroying all these churches and it's really interesting because I read a a study from an unknown academic but it's very refreshing and honest and the whole point is yes he did this but it was calculated policy to prove to the Sunnis of Egypt that he is a true Muslim.

Oh okay. So okay so the so the re and I mean there's so many lessons here but the reason that he destroyed and desecrated the holy supplr and all this is because the Sunnis of Egypt as you pointed out who were the majority were spec skeptical towards a Shia ruler. So to prove his bonafides as a true Muslim he went about destroying and desecrating every church he could and that I mean so think about what that just says about Sunni Islam itself. But um anyway, that's I thought that was an interesting take. What's that?

1009, right? Yeah.

Yeah. That's when he destroyed the holy supp.

Yeah. So that was 90 years before the crusades.

And he also instantly in incidentally supposedly amongst I think the seveners goes into occultation. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Even though they say his sister killed him.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They started broadening the concept of occultation. So yeah, to some degree that's true. Um

Yeah, they um Yeah. You know what, Ray? real quick on that. It really boils me that you know I teach undergraduate history mostly mostly online. Thank the Lord. Um but you know over the years I mean I've taught undergrad history on and off for 20 years. Okay. Um, and I can't I probably Oh, behind me I have a whole bookshelf full of different textbooks I use, right? just basically usually I I either teach western civ or I teach world world history and none of them none of them mention this you know, this thing where the the fatimans went up and destroyed the church of the holy supplr you know, because you know, there are some historians that say that that although it's a bit removed that that of course that information got back to Europe and that helped contribute to the crusades because it I mean a couple textbooks that I've used say flat Sly, you know, that the claim that the that the Muslims were destroying Christian holy sites has no basis in reality. Like what propag because you teach uh history online, you have a lot of do you have a lot of history books, textbooks who make claims that you take umbrage with,

Including including omission claims.

Oh yeah, they all do.

Okay. So you and I are going to save this and we're going to have another live stream about history and how it's being taught. Okay.

Okay.

No, no, this is a juicy topic. This is my pet peeve as everyone knows is uh um you know, how history is being taught. So this is excellent. We'll talk about that. Okay.

Um, I'll make a note of it. We'll have another live stream about basically the many failures of academia both you know, in in you know, from grade school and high school up until and especially you know, college and graduate courses.

Um

And and I've taught I've taught Middle East history too. So we can talk about that.

Okay. Excellent. Let's definitely do that. We we'll schedule that in. Um, but yeah, go ahead. continue.

The Abbassads. Yeah. Um, I was just going to say the same thing went on with the Abbassads. I mean, you know, the Abbassads came from basically what they called Kurissan, right? The the eastern Iran, Afghanistan region, and they came in and took over 8th century AD from the Omiads. The Omiads had been Arabs. The Abbassads had much more Persian influence. Of course, by that time, the Iranians, excuse me. Yeah. the the the uh the Iranian Empire, the uh the Cisanians had been conquered by the Muslims centuries or so earlier by the Arab Muslims. But basically there was a strong element with the Abbassads and then again they came in in 750 748 750 and took over from the Hummiads and then ruled till the Mongols came through. But they um they they did the same sort of thing. They they had a strong element. They were Sunni, but they had a strong element of Shiism in there. And they were kind of doing like reverse takia. They they they they presented themselves to the maj minority Shia communities in the Islamic world at the time as sort of their saviors. They were going to come in and save the minority Shia from the oppression. And once they got in power, they were like, "Oh, no. We're sorry, full Jew. We're just we're just basically Sunnis." Um, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Because the the Abbassid, well, it's the claim again is like his the Muhammad's uncle, right?

Muhammad's uncle. Labos or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, basically, they pulled a they pulled a uh they pulled a um animal house on them. You messed up. You trusted us. Um, I'm not sure they crushed a beer on their forehead, but they probably thought about it. Um, so, yeah. So, Tea uh Tequia Kitman. Yeah. Basically, um, what I would say is I would say it's clearly government policy for the Iranians. for the Sunni communities. I I don't know that there's any I I don't think the Saudis engage in it, but I clearly think that Sunni communities in the West engage in it as we were talking about earlier because that's a good way to get, you know, I guarantee you if somebody would do a study, there's lots of Muslims in America that are practicing polytheism right now. I guarantee you.

What do you mean? I mean that they're guys with more than one wife and they're keeping it hidden. I guarantee.

Of course. Of course. There's so many people doing this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's and it's under takia, you know, until it's, you know, safe to start

Until there's enough Muslims that you can bring it out in the open and then you don't have to practice taki anymore.

Exactly.

Yeah. But but for the Iranian government, I think

And you know that is the heart of tea. Just so everyone understands it's it's such a Shia I'm sorry not not Shia it's a minority centric mentality

And that's why it's Shia as well because they're the minority which is

When you when you're the minority and you're surrounded if you're a Shia by Sunnis or if you're a Sunni by Westerners

It's kind of like it's internalized that you immediately just hide everything and you try to accommodate but in as much as their numbers grow and we see this in Europe in as much as the mask falls off because they feel the need to dissemble is no longer there uh and it's not even legitimate in that in that context. So um I think uh I think that's why you really see tea where Muslims are a tiny minority. So I would say in America it's much more prevalent because Muslims are such a minority

As opposed to I don't know the UK or Sweden or France where

They can kind of be open about it because they feel strong in numbers.

Right. Right. They're strong enough to you know, to intimidate people. Yeah. Here they're still not. So yeah, I mean, but what is it by 20 I think it's actually by 2030 which is not very far away. I believe there's going to be that Muslims will be the second largest religion though displaced Judaism is the second largest religion in America.

I saw in Germany a pew a Pew study said uh I think by 2050 something like 30% of Germans are going to be Muslims.

Then it won't be Germany anymore.

Yeah. Well, that's I mean, it's not Germany anymore now, but yeah, it'll be actually part of the caliphate at that point. uh the forthcoming caliphate. Um, all right. So I think uh I don't know if you if you I I actually see this as what's happened is we have like a two-part thing going on and the first part's over. We've been dealing with history and doctrine and now we're going to move to the present. Before we do, do you have any final thoughts about history or doctrine or any of that?

No. Okay. Let's actually in the meantime see some super chats. See if there's any questions um that we can take right now. The Eagle Statesman. Hey, thanks for being a member. Um, lies destroy lives. Raymond's a very knowledgeable man. Thank you. His video about Islamic toa. That's another form of lying. And the live stream from which it was taken is very good. Thank you. Yeah, I did a a live stream a couple weeks ago about tea and toa is another form of lying which for those who don't know and I'll give you an it's it's such a creative way of lying. Um, are you familiar with Torea?

No, I am not by that one.

Okay, so toa is basically, and I don't blame you. It's so hard to keep up with the different forms of deception that emanate from Islam. But this one, I did a whole live stream about it, and it's uh it's basically as long as the words fit the meaning, you're not lying. Okay? So, if you were to ask me, "Hey, Ray, can I borrow um 20 bucks?" And I say, "I don't have a dime in my pocket." You're going to assume I have no money, but I may have a wad of $20 bills. I just don't have a dime in my pocket. So I didn't lie to you according to Islam and one of and it's you know, they give all these examples and one of them is from um uh Abu Abu Thai he's like an early Islamic thinker

Important I think he had a def a now defunct school of jurist prudence and this is what he does he's with he's at he's at a sultan's palace and the sultan refuses to let him leave unless he promises to come back so this man thaw swears to Allah you wall. He tells him, "I'm I'm will be back." And then the khif says, "Okay, go leave." So he goes and right before he leaves the palace, he takes clandestinely his sandals off and just keeps walking. Leaves the palace, then comes back in 10 minutes, puts his sandals back on, and leaves and never comes back. Therefore, he didn't lie because he promised he'd be back. So this is toa and uh this is actually and a lot of people have asked me so why you know, why do if you can doa toa is actually kind of like it's made for Muslim on Muslim lying because you shouldn't if you're a Muslim you shouldn't lie to a fellow Muslim

Right

But so now they're saying you can do this kind of lie as long as your words fit the if so a father tells his daughter if someone calls the house and asks for me tell them I'm not here

And she calls in a and he gives her a fatwa he says yes you can say that but By saying he's not here, you mean he's not right here in this room. He may be in the other room. Okay. And then you're not lying. So all that sort of thing. So anyway, that's

Can I say something real quick on that? Right.

Yeah, sure.

I I was watching I don't remember who I was watching. They were interviewing Father Chad Ripinger. Do you know who he is?

The the Catholic.

Yeah, he's a real Chad.

Yeah, he really is. Um, but I I started watching this and it was it might have been on Tucker. I can't remember who he was on with. He's been over these lately.

And he said, "What's one of the chief signs if someone's influenced by a demon?"

And he said, "Lying."

Well, what what is what is Satan the father of?

Right.

Yeah. Exactly. So when you have a religion and a prophet that go out of their way to keep advocating I mean look we all I mean everyone lies especially white lies which kind of toa supposedly amounts to or at least that's what they say but you know at least in the Christian religion you're you know I don't know if Christ ever saying lie you know or you know or saying it's okay in fact Christians admit we're Christians and then they die for it.

Yeah. We're not supposed to do it. It's part of being sinful.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's not promoted.

Exactly.

Yeah. So anyway, um um hey Josh, thanks for becoming a member. Um Dan, imagine being an Iranian Muslim and believe in a holy book which claims that Alexander the Great Vulcan, he of two horns, was a Muslim when Alexander conquered the Persian Empire. Iran's history disproves Islam.

Any thoughts? I I don't have much bad to say about Zoroastrinism.

Yeah. All right. Um, lies destroy lives. Raymond, your last interview with Tim about token was really good. Yeah, remember that. And as was your interview with a Catholic priest, please con consider interviewing more people. All right. Lies destroy lives. I will. Uh, thanks. Um, yeah, I like doing these interviews and Tim was on earlier. for whoever didn't see it, we are both JRR token Middleear affectionatos. Um, so we we did a stream way way back about that and um um Dan Jesus will confront Gog and Magog that were trapped by Alexander the Great. Everyone's thinking about about this uh dulin uh the great laughing aloud. Jesus will retreat uh be uh behind a mountain before Allah destroys Gog and Magog. Any thoughts about Gog and Magog in the context of Islamic esquetology?

Yeah, major actors. Um, yeah. And there's a hadith, right, that Alexander the Great penned them up somewhere in Central Asia.

Yeah, tell us about this about Dornin and basically they're talking about the old images of Alexander having two horns in these coins. But go ahead.

Yeah, basically, I mean the Quran crib from other sources. Muhammad did. So Alexander

Exactly. This is the point. This is in the Quran that Yes. They talk about Alexander the Great, the he of two horns, you know, and and what he did,

Right? Yeah. So, and but but the whole thing with Islamic esquetology, as I said at the very beginning, basically is crib from Christianity. I mean, you've got the same you've got actors with the same name as Revelation, but they're a little bit different. You've got a beast, Al Daba, right? You've got um you've got an antichrist figure, Al Dejal uh Gog and Magog, uh Yajooj Wajj. Uh, you know, and then there's hadiths about them. Some of those are in the Quran, right? Yeah. I mean, um uh Yajj Majj is in the Quran. Um Alaba is in the Quran, too, I believe. I I have a little chart of that. Which ones are in the Quran and which ones aren't? But the Matthew is not in the Quran.

What about the green man?

Yeah, the green knight. No. Um,

Yeah. So, I mean, the Quran is, look, I mean, just because B follows A doesn't

It's the eternal word of Allah. What are you talking about?

No, I know. I I just can't bring myself to believe that.

Anyway,

Yeah. I just, you know, I've never been able to believe that. I'm sorry. You know, I spent about

I spent about 30 seconds probably in grad school when I was doing Islamic history going, I wonder if Islam is true. And then I quickly decided, no, it's not.

All right. Yeah.

Let's see. All right. Here's one for you. Lies destroy lives. Tim, if the Shia say Ali is the first imam, how do the Shia view the first three of the four rightly guided Khalifs? And why do Sunnis only regard the first four khifs as rightly guided?

I don't think the the Shia believe any of the first four were rightly guided. Really? Um I mean

Well, I mean, but that is their epithet, Al Rashidun, right?

Yes. Right. Um uh wait, what was the second part? The um well, the first part is

Yeah, if the Shia say Ali is the first I imam, how do the Shia view the fir in other words, how do the what is the Shia view of the first uh uh I guess it would be the first three khifs uh Omar and

Uman yeah, I mean, they're okay um but you know, you really it should have really been Ali all along because

I think I think she has accept the first three as okay yeah, but the split becomes after Ali Right. Right. But it was better with Ali because Ali is directly receiving guidance from from from Allah. Um, so um, and then with the other Wait, hang on. Let me get my glasses back on in half. Oh, why the Sunnis on guard force for first four kay? Because of the fitna, because of the civil war after the first four and uh

It almost implies that even the Sunnis feel bad about the Ali thing because he was killed and his kid, right? That's why they feel Muawia and the Umiads are not necessarily rightly guided.

Right. Yeah, that's true. And then you get the Abbassads who you know are from a whole another sector of the galaxy in a sense.

All right. What do you know about uh Jadiism originating in the Russian Empire? Tatarstand Russia controls the Islamic institutions there and banned hadiths, taps, etc. to keep the Muslims away from the truth.

I really don't know much about that. I will confess.

I don't either, but let me give it a stab here. So, what do

You know about Jadism originating in the Russian Empire? Tartism, Russia controls the Islamic institutions there. That's the only thing I know a little bit about, which is Russia does in fact have, um, you know, strong control over Islamic literature. And it does sift through them, and if anything is seen as promoting jihadism or terrorism, there's a strong clampdown technically on them, I think.

So, so do they ban the Quran?

Well, yeah, that I, that the reason I know all this is because I, I once wrote an article a long time ago about Russia being seen as very strong on this, but it, of course, wouldn't ban the Quran, right? That's that's too much, right? Um, but yeah, it's a good question. I'll look into it at some point. Uh, okay.

Uh, RK Angry German. Hello from your old pal from KFUO where you got your big showbiz break on Studio A. I don't know if talking to me or you. Huh?

St. Louis. Me.

Oh, he's talking to you. Okay. Uh, comment on the Great Mosque of Damascus and Jesus's return.

Yeah, I, uh, used to be quite a bit on Lutheran radio out of St. Louis.

Oh, okay.

Um, yeah. So, yeah, there's a hadith. I thought of this earlier. I didn't say it. There's a hadith that when Jesus, when Jesus returns to earth, he will descend upon the minaret of the Great Mosque in Damascus. And then what will be his first word?

Kill the infidel.

No, that's second. I think his first word will be, his first word will be "ladder." Ladder.

Yeah, because he has to get down from the top of the minaret. So, I'm like, wait a minute. He came all the way back from where, all I had him, heaven, I don't know, the dark side of the moon, wherever all put him, and he can't get down from the top of the minaret. Okay. So, he literally needs a physical ladder so he can come down.

Yes.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Interesting. Um, here's another one. Mr. Lies Destroy Lives. Oh, we did this one. Sorry. Okay.

Um, here we go. Dan Dave RC. Christian myths have basically, uh, become Islamic divine scriptures. They're forced to defend myths which even Christians laugh on. Mo just told stories he heard. Arab pagans vindicated by history. I guess this is kind of touching on what we were talking about, Alexander the Great, and how, you know.

Yeah.

Muslims and Arabs and Muhammad just whatever they heard, they kind of synchronized and kind of came up with a hodgepodge religion.

Yeah. And I think what, what might fall in that too is, like, for instance, there's stuff in the Quran that's from, from the, uh, the apocryphal gospels, right? Like, for instance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, the whole idea of Jesus not being crucified or, or, you know, someone in his place, isn't that the Gospel of Thomas? These in the Gospel, Thomas also has that thing about Jesus making little, when he's a kid, making little clay birds and they become alive and fly off and.

Got. Yeah, yeah. Even things that Christians have actually discarded and rejected, such as the Gnostic Gospels, all kind of in many ways do find their way into Islam, the final revelation. Dan Dave, why do you think Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Middle Eastern Christians are not able to resist Islam, whereas European Christians, Hindus, and Sikhs were?

Well, I'm not sure how well Hindus were able to resist them because, you know, you had 80 million were killed in the Delhi Sultanate and, um, what was the other one? Uh, I mean, there were Muslim rulers.

Mogul, or the Mogul. Yeah, the Mus, there were Muslim rulers that slaughtered tens of thousands, if not more, of of Hindus and destroyed temples right and left and built mosques on top of them. So.

I mean, I'm not sure how well the Hindus actually did resist. Um, why do you think Zoroastrians, Buddhists were not able to resist Islam?

I could take a stab at it.

Please.

Um, well, you know, I mean, the question presupposes that, you know, Islam, Islamic jihadist manifestations were always the same at every century. But we can argue that in the 7th century, when the Zoroastrians and the Middle Easterners, meaning the people in the local region around Arabia where Islam was born, were conquered, was because at that point in time, Islam was immensely overwhelming. And of course, the argument is the Byzantines and the Sasanian's were weakened by their own infighting and so forth. So we can say that, um, as far as, uh, so Europe, well, portions of Europe were conquered, right? Spain for many centuries, the Balkans later on, the Mediterranean islands were all conquered. Um, but of course, thankfully, Europe did fight back, uh, by and large. And, uh, so again, you know, and Europe was a further, obviously, France is further than Egypt, where which got conquered quickly, right, from the main heartland of the Islamic world, Arabia. So I think, you know, the the context and the circumstances and the geography, uh, plays a big role in it.

Ray, let me ask you a question on that because I teach military history too online. And one of the things that I'm, one thing that I'm always puzzled by and I don't really have a good answer for is why is it in the initial Arab conquests, Arab Muslim conquests, the Sasanians fell but the Byzantines, although they lost territory, did not fall? Because the Sasanian Empire, by any measure of the time, was a very powerful empire. Although, you know, as you said, that they and the Byzantines have been going at it for hundreds of years and beating the daylights out of each other, but yet the Byzantines did manage to survive and and the Sasanians didn't.

Well, I think the answer again is somewhat related to geography in the sense that, you know, the Sasanian Empire, what was it? It's Persia. It's Iran, which is, you know, right there north northeast of Arabia. So, it could be overrun. In reality, probably more Byzantine land was actually conquered than Persia because Egypt was Byzantine, Greater Syria, which is the entire Middle East, was Byzantine, and, you know, at least the eastern portion of Anatolia was conquered in that early 7th century. So I think realistically, maybe possibly a bigger chunk of Byzantium was conquered. We just say Byzantium was not conquered because Constantinople, which was distant.

Still survived, whereas, you know, the Sasanian was right there, right? You know, it's the neighbor of Arabia, so it could easily for that geographic reason be overwhelmed and taken over.

Yeah, good point.

All right, let's see here. I think we're almost done with the questions. Um, last one, I think. Uh, the Scorpion King. There were many prophet claimants in the 7th century Arabia. That's true. They were all gangsters with their private armies. Musaylimah, I remember him, also claimed to be a prophet. He allowed wine, three prayers in a day, etc.

Yeah.

I think that's interesting because it kind of goes to, you know, what we're saying about because, you know, there's a connection between Muhammad's prophethood and Mahdism.

Right. You know, there's that mystical. He's the final prophet. Mahdi is not a prophet. But of course, the claim of Muhammad that he's the final prophet isn't, is in and of itself, a supernatural claim that, and the Quran is the word of Allah.

Um, so really, this whole concept and the mysticism of it all goes way back to the beginnings of Islam with, with Muhammad. And it is true, many people forget that at this time, there were a lot of self-styled prophets running around.

And, uh, it just so happens that Muhammad's the one who won out and therefore, you know, history is written by the victors. And in this case, it would be Muhammad's followers and so he became, he became the prophet.

Any thoughts?

You know, the, the victors write history. So, you know, Muhammad was one that survived and won, and, uh, Musaylimah didn't. So.

Yeah. Exactly. And if he did, we, he, you know, Muslim might be the real prophet and Muslims, you know, or whatever they would be called at that point. Okay, here's another question.

Muhamadans.

Muslimians. All right.

Uh, Dilarian Talks. Raymond, what is Europe supposed to do regarding their Muslim population? We all know things won't get better unless something drastic is done.

Well, I've talked a lot about this and I'll give a summary answer and then I'll let you, Tim, if you have anything to say, but, um, what is Europe supposed to do regarding their Muslim population? Well, what they should have done is not allow it to grow in the first place. That's what they should have done, but they didn't. And so now they're stuck with this issue. This is the classic example, and this is why I always really strongly try to differentiate when people, I don't know about you, but I'm, I'm personally tired of, you know, in our, you know, ecosystem and with what we do with Islam, you and me and and so many other people, uh, you know, we warn against Islamic violence, Islam, and intolerance, whatever, historically, contemporarily. But honestly, I've reached the point where it's not Islam anymore, it's just stupid Western policies. You know, if you really want to point the finger at what's causing this, you know, and I've given so many analogies, kind of like, you know, if, if a, if a zookeeper takes a lion and he puts it in a zebra enclosure and there's a lion kills a zebra, who are you going to blame? The lion or the zookeeper, right? And, uh, so I just hope people start. Islam is what it is. What we're talking about. I, I don't take anything back that I've ever said about Islam, and I believe it is what it is. But really, our problems today in Europe are all self-made, self-created, and self-perpetuated.

Um, and that's why I always point out whereas Western Europe, I'm in Europe right now, by the way.

And, you know, these, the Western European nations like France and the UK and Scandinavia and Germany, they're just, you know, everyone I talk to, even the liberals are sick of it. You know, it's, if there's any more semblance or or attempt to claim that the Islam issue is not a problem, it's just the media at best. But everyone, left or right, is sick of it and and overwhelmed. But you look at other countries like these Slavic countries in the Balkans, and they just don't have this problem, even though they're weaker economically, militarily, in every which way, and they don't have this problem. So, it just goes to show you that this was an easy fix. All you have to do is say, "No thanks. Uh, I want to keep my, you know, demographic homogeneity the way it is," for example, and that would have been the end of it. But these countries did it to themselves. So, um, you know.

And the final point is he says, "We all know things won't get better unless something drastic is done." Exactly. And, but do Europeans have the will to do something drastic at this point? Uh, I don't think so. You, Tim, any thoughts?

I, I very much agree with what you said. And I, I was just saying this to my wife the other day after church. I'm like, "Look, I was saying this to my son, one of my son, my son still lives at home. My other one's off playing college football. I'm, I said, the government's not going to save us from this." I said, "The church has to save us." I really have gotten to that point where I'm like, um, and, and, and part of this is, I'm thinking, you know, it's, it's also an opportunity if, if the churches would get their stuff together. All these millions of Muslims, I don't know about Europe, but all these millions of Muslims in America, Christians should be trying to convert them, you know.

I mean, uh, and this is kind of a riff on an article by, I don't know, I know you, you know John Zamirk for The Stream. You know John? You know John's a staunch Catholic friend of mine. I respect his opinion a lot. A year or so ago, he wrote an article for The Stream when it was still doing articles saying, you know, this is an opportunity for the churches. All these Muslims in America, you know, let's convert them instead of instead of, you know, let's let instead of them being. I think it's actually, I don't know if John used this, but it reminded me of a quote from, was it St. Paisios? The the Orthodox saint, um, the best way to the best way to treat an enemy or to get rid of an enemy, and I'm paraphrasing, the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make them your friend.

And, um, I, I do think that the churches, you know, like, I, I don't know that we need to do missions overseas anymore. Why don't we just do missions here? Again, I don't know what's going to happen in Europe. I, I mean, there's some indications I think that they're starting to experience a Christian, uh, revival, and I hope that's true. Um, you know, as long as not some of the people that are advising President Trump. But, um, you know, again, it's, it's almost the point where I don't care if you're Catholic or Orthodox or conservative Protestant, you know, not nut job Protestant, you know, it's just bringing Muslims to Christ, I think, is what needs to be done. And, and, and yes, should we not have brought all of them in? And maybe the United States, I think we have stopped doing what we were doing. I saw, I saw some information the other day where about, um, uh, the refugee status granted to people under the Trump administration as opposed to under Biden's administration. Under Biden's administration, refugee status was being granted to people from all kinds of Muslim countries. Under Trump, it's not bad.

Um, so, you know, that's a good thing because, because look, when you bring in lots of people that have a different culture, not just a different religion, but a different culture, and they are not going to change that, at least they seem to be adamant about it, you're just asking for trouble. You were just asking for trouble. So again, I, I, you know, I hope the government does something. I don't know that I trust the government to fix this problem anymore and to save our civilization. I think it's up to Christians to do that.

Yeah. Um, you know, about your point, which is converting Christ, uh, Muslims to or to Christianity. You know, two observations. One, that is of course, the, the Christian mandate. That's what Christians are supposed to be doing. I, I, I completely agree with you. I even go overseas when your own country, right, is rife or ripe, really, to for for proselytization.

Um, but it's the exact opposite. I mean, among, it's one thing for secularists and atheists to tell Muslims, you know, do, do your thing, believe your way, but even Christians do that, right? And maybe not so much in America, but in Europe, I've seen this a lot. I, I was at an Anglican church, of course, where, you know, they're more interested in ecumenical outreach and having inviting Muslims over on Easter to, you know, proclaim Quran truths and and whatnot, right? So, it's actually, it's the opposite. And the other observation is that it, even from, you know, if you don't, if you want to look at it from a pragmatic point of view, not just a spiritual point of view, uh, conversion is actually more, uh, uh, more prone to success than everything else because one of the problems in, in the West in general, uh, is, and you see this all the time. I have this conversation with a lot of people in Europe, which is the most radicalized Muslims are the, the newest generations, the latest generations. It's not the, the first generation, it's the third and fourth.

Okay? And why is that? Because I think they find there's absolutely no meaning in Western civilization, Western culture. It's just purely hedonistic, nihilistic. And so they naturally fall back onto their own culture and they try to find meaning in that. But if actually you had robust Christianity reaching out to them and, you know, showing them, you know, itself, then that would be this would be a way of fighting fire with fire. Okay, you can't, you can't, uh, you know, get a, a Muslim who's working through a theological paradigm to, uh, just win him over through secularism. Okay, that's actually repulsive generally. But if you do it through a, a theological paradigm, your own, and you're fighting fire with fire, Christianity versus Islam, in this case, I think that's a lot more potent. And I've seen this and I've written this before a long time ago. I don't know if you remember Father Zachariah Boutros. He was a.

I remember. I wrote. I used to watch him and I wrote and I, he's still around, but I wrote about him like, I don't know, 20 years ago, NRO article. And what he was doing is, you know, he, he attacks Muslims. He exposes Islam. He's, he's a polemicist against Islam. But then he actually doesn't just leave them there and say, "Oh, see your religion sucks now. You have to be a secular humanist." No, he presents Christianity and tries to supplant it.

And it was very effective. I think it still is. That's still the most effective means of combating Islam in the Islamic world. It's actually Christian proselytization.

Um, because you need something. Muslims can't go from believing in Allah to becoming atheists. Some can, of course. I'm not arguing it in a monolithic term, but most people need something spiritually satisfying because they're coming from that sort of background. And, um, so even, even from a strategic point of view, I actually think trying to convert them to proper Christianity, not what I would call doormat Christianity, is actually a smart thing to do.

And Islam, it's the only other religion in the world whose holy book talks about Jesus. Now, they got it wrong. Um, but, you know, there's a, there's a way to approach Muslims by bringing up Jesus that you don't have with any other religion, really.

Yeah. Exactly. Because they do look, to their credit, you know, Islam and the Quran says Jesus is born of a virgin. He's perfect, sinless, performed miracles. You know, I don't know any other religion that comes that close. Of course, it also.

Vehemently denies the more cardinal points of, you know, the death, resurrection, and his sonship of the Trinity. Um, but anyway, uh, so let's, let's continue. Um, Christie, do you know about the Batak massacre in Bulgaria carried out by the Bashi-bazouks? It's one of the tragic events that occurred under Ottoman rule. Could you make a video about it?

I don't know if I'll make a video about it, but I do know about it. And the reference is basically to Ottomans massacring Bulgarians, Christians, and the the Bashi-bazouks actually were the sort of like the forerunner of the army, which were basically like homeless vagabonds and just savages who they would put in the front ranks and just unleash, and they would go and kill and plunder. They were the.

Cannons, basically. And they engaged in some of the worst atrocities. Um, in fact, there's a picture which I'm publishing very soon in in a Substack article. If you're watching, you should check out my Substack and subscribe. It'll come out and it's exactly of that. It's of Muslims essentially raping. I mean, this was painted in the 19th century, so it's not that graphic, but it's a scene of those guys raping. I mean, this was painted in the 19th century, so it's not that graphic, but it's a scene of those guys raping and, um, a woman, um, a Bulgarian woman, and her babies slaughtered and killed because that's the sort of thing that they were doing. And it was actually, this is one of the, the, the earliest massacres that were reported in the West in in the press, and people were outraged and they couldn't believe it. How could people do this? But of course, uh, again, that's, uh, lost history, right?

Okay. All right. Coal Train. The Fourth Crusade did more damage than any Turk could. Constantinople's population never recovered. Not even close. Turks got the scraps. I, we always get the Fourth Crusade to to contend with. Any thoughts before I talk?

Uh.

No.

I think that's a bit of hyperbole, shall we say?

Yeah, I agree that we all say that now that it was the worst thing and it devastated Constantinople because that's what we're always told because that's we want to take away from the fact that it was the Muslims and the Ottomans who conquered it. So we say, "Oh yeah, it was already weakened by the Christians." Um, even though that it was like over 200 years, 250 years before the fall of Constantinople, I think it would have recovered and built some walls in the meantime. But, um, but yeah, we always hear about the Fourth Crusade and I've talked a lot about it. It's kind of like I call it the "aha moment" people love to throw at me, kind of like, what I'm saying sounds supportive of the Crusades, and it is, and everyone's, "But what about the Fourth Crusade?" And it kind of presupposes that.

That I'm saying, you know, the the Crusaders were sort, you know, immaculate, infallible men. Well, of course, wars go awry in all sorts of ways.

And, uh, show me the one war that didn't, right? And, and you can pick your heroes, and they all do to some degree or other. All right, we keep getting more questions, Tim, so bear with me. Are you still on the time constraints?

Yeah, I got about 10 minutes.

10 minutes. All right, I'm gonna hold off then, and we are going to, uh, continue. So, all right, you gave us the history. Now, let's get into the good stuff and, uh, give me the digested version. And basically, what we're looking for is, um, how does Mahdism, particularly the 12 Shia emphasis on the hidden Imam, how does it and does it shape Iran's foreign policy and nuclear ambitions? And basically, how much of Iran's actions, support for proxies like Hezbollah and the Houthis, how much of that is really genuinely driven by Mahdist anticipation versus pragmatic geopolitics?

Uh, let's start with the last one first. I think it's mostly pragmatic geopolitics. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, um, well, it's certainly in the case of the the Houthis, the Houthis who are again Zaydi Shia, Fiver Shia, um, the Iranian brand of Shiism and the the Yemeni brand of Shiism are pretty distinct, but since the Houthi, the Houthi Zaydis make up 40% of the population, at least of Yemen, um, and Iran needs all the friends it could get around the world, you know, some decades ago, they decided they would start supporting these guys. And again, like you said with, uh, blaming, you know, stupidity of Western leaders and Western policies. Same thing there. I mean, I think I think the West, the United States in particular, probably could have, uh, gotten a whole lot different outcome in Yemen if they had paid some attention to those guys. I mean, the the Zaydis were in a lot of ways oppressed by the Sunnis, uh, in that country, and nobody would help them out. But the Iranians were perfectly willing to help them out. And the flip side of that was they had to agree to, you know, launch drones and missiles at ships for the Iranians and, and, and go out and, and spout, um, you know, death to Israel, death to America. So, um, so I think that's mostly geopolitics. Hezbollah is a bit different because Hezbollah, um, they are Lebanese 12ers, and as you know, um, they're, you know, there are connections between particularly the Ayatollah families going back hundreds of years, and a lot of the, um, a lot of the Ayatollahs, a lot of the clerical leadership, and and clerics, high-ranking clerics, even before, uh, they took over the government in '79, a lot of their families, uh, came from Lebanon. So there's cultural, familial, and religious connections between Iran and Lebanon, unlike there are between Iran and Yemen.

So, I, a lot of that I think is religious, um, uh, religious, uh, uh, you know, adjacency, but it's also the fact that Hezbollah is right up against Israel, and Iran has been for years using, using support, or in the case of the Arabs, as they say, non-support for Israel, excuse me, for for the Palestinians, as a club with which to beat the Arabs. They have long basically geopolitically said, well, you know, the Saudis aren't helping the Palestinians anymore. You know, the the Jordanians aren't helping them. The Syrians aren't helping them, but, you know, we Iranians are helping you.

Um, so I think that's, that's more complex. It's, it's both religious and geopolitical. Hamas, it's just geopolitical because of course Hamas is Sunni. Um, you know, in, in any other context, the the, uh, the leadership of of Hamas would probably hate Iran, but when Iran provides them plenty of weapons and, and money, again, they weren't getting help from a whole lot of other places.

Um.

Okay. Um, because I know you're on a time constraint. So, uh, so to, okay, the question, how about this question? How much does the, you know, the 12 Imam emphasis on the Imam, etc., shape Iran's foreign policy generically, and especially in the context of its nuclear ambitions?

Yeah. Um, I think that the nuclear ambition thing has two sides to it. One is that, as I was saying earlier, there are a number of Ayatollas in the leadership that are true believers that the Mahdi, the 12th Imam, will emerge as the Mahdi and eventually then, you know, uh, actualize Article Two of the Iranian Constitution, where he takes over the government.

There are lots of others that I think don't really believe that, but they can look at the example, the counter-examples of North Korea and Libya. In the case of North Korea, Little Rocket Man got himself some nuclear weapons, by any count, quite a number now, and no one's going to attack North Korea because North Korea will nuke Tokyo and/or Seoul. So, uh, it's, it's regime insurance. So, a lot of the Iranian leadership, you know, that my one trip over there, I noticed that a lot of these guys wear Rolex watches and drive very expensive cars and have more than one wife.

Um, they, they do not want to, they, they do not want that to be, um, you know, threatened.

They don't want to be martyred.

Yeah, they don't want to be martyred. They got a pretty sweet life. Um, and what happened with Libya, on the other hand, you know, Gaddafi gave up whatever nuclear program he had, and Gaddafi wound up being killed by his own people in a rather horrible fashion. Uh, and basically Libya has now been turned into very much a failed state.

Uh, so that, that I think a lot of the Ayatollah, Ayatollah want nuclear weapons for regime insurance. Uh.

So it's more of a realpolitik.

I think it's more realpolitik. Although I think there are some in the administration that do basically say, "Oh, well, you know, in case the Mahdi does show up here, we can give him some nuclear weapons to to wield."

All right. And, um, let me see. I'm trying to, I had a couple questions, but, uh, your assistant. Okay. So, here's a big one, which I'd really like you to wax and wane on because, uh, in whatever time we have left, and is, what is all of this mean? What we've been discussing, Islamic eschatology, both Sunni and Shiite, and Shia, um, um, and Mahdism, and so forth. What does it all mean for the broader world, which includes, of course, the usual, uh, actors, the West, Israel, but also Sunni nations, if we're talking about, um, you know, Shia Mahdism versus Sunni Mahdism? So, what, what's the, you know, in a nutshell, what does this all mean for non-Muslims?

It means that we're dealing with a mindset that we're not totally comfortable with. A lot of Americans, a lot of Westerners in general, Americans in particular, have this idea that, um, you know, surely if they can't understand someone else's mindset, it must be irrational. I mean, we hear this all the time. The Ayatollahs are irrational. The Ayatollahs are medieval. I'm like, no, I think they're pretty smart people. They just believe things that are different than what we believe.

Right.

Um, it's, it's my, my example I always use is from one of my favorite movies of all time, Jeremiah Johnson. Uh, you know, where, uh, where, uh, Robert Redford plays that mountain man back in the 1840s or whatever, up in Utah, wherever he is. And anyway, there's one scene where, um, some American soldiers are come up to him. He's living up in the mountains by himself with his Indian wife and this kid that he adopted and found. And he, and these American soldiers show up with this with this Christian minister, and they're like, "Well, we over here across the mountains in this pass, we've got these settlers trapped, and we need to get to them, and you're the only one that knows how to get us there." And he goes, "Well, okay, I'll do it." So, he leads them over there, and at one point, they come up on this Indian burial ground, I think it was Crow. And he goes, "We can't go through here." Well, why not? Because this is big medicine to them. If we go through here, it will offend them, and it won't end well. Uh, and, and the minister goes, "Surely you don't believe that, Johnson." And he says, "It doesn't matter if I believe it, they believe it."

Exactly.

And, and then of course, they do go through it. Then he winds up, uh, killing a bunch of people because they made the Indians mad because they went through their sacred burial ground. Yeah. You know, it's like these people are crazy. We always hear this, these people are crazy. These people are this. These people are that. Well, I don't think they're crazy. They just have a different viewpoint than us. Now, we don't have to accept their viewpoint, but if you want to deal with these sorts of people, you have, particularly Muslims, particularly in this case, Shia Muslims, you have to understand something about what they believe, and don't just dismiss it and don't caricaturize it. Uh, again, and one of the things I've always fought against, and maybe I've fought against it a little less lately than I used to, but this idea that, well, the Iranians only want a nuclear weapon so they can destroy Israel, nuke Israel or New York, and then usher in the coming of the Mahdi. I'm like, well, I think there might be a couple of Ayatollas believe that, but I don't think that's most of what they believe for the reasons I previously mentioned. I think most of them are much more pragmatic than that.

No, no. So, this is very important what you're saying because really, everything at this point hinges on that question. And I think a lot of people are, if they're interested in this topic, Mahdism, is because they've heard that, you know, the Shia, Iran are hell-bent on nuclear weapons because they're going to usher in the Mahdi by destroying the two Satans, Israel and the United States. So, if you can, you know, elaborate some more and unpack, because this is really what it all comes down to. I'd like to hear.

I, I think that the, uh, again, if I live in Israel and I'm an 18-minute missile flight from Iran, you know, I might, I might think about it a little bit differently. But based on everything I've read and looked at over the years, I believe that they want nuclear. Again, I'm not saying they should get nuclear weapons. I'm just saying, let's be clear-eyed about the analysis. Let's stop doing the the alarmism stuff, okay? I think that the rational actor, uh, data leads me to believe that they want nuclear weapons for regime insurance because even if they were to get them, use them on Tel Aviv, what would happen to Iran 18 minutes later?

It would be a radioactive parking lot.

Well, but the logic is, they they don't care because they they want to be martyred.

Yeah, but, but, but I, they'll be in hot water with the Mahdi if, when he comes. All he gets to rule over is a radioactive parking lot. That will probably annoy him, you know. And for the true believers, I mean, that's a legitimate question. I mean, you know, I remember when I went to that conference in Iran back in '08, I sat in this one very uncomfortable panel. I was sitting there and the discussion was, when the Mahdi comes, when the 12th Imam returns, will he kill all the Jews and Christians or allow them to convert? And I'm going, can I go get some tea or something?

Well, but, but they'll, they'll bring up, of course, the Hadiths. What's a Hadith where, you know, like, uh, at the end times, the tree will scream, "The Jew is behind me, come kill him." And so, so does that have any, does that fit into Mahdism, or is this an exaggeration, or what?

Well, that's pretty much just standard Islam, right? I think I don't think that that's particularly.

Well, no, it is, right? I mean, I don't think that's totally anymore.

You know what I really think is really interesting, Raymond, is that I, I think there's three brands of competing Messianism going on in this war right now.

Okay.

You got the 12ism, which we've been talking about at length. I think there is an element of Jewish Messianism in this because there do seem to be some people in Netanyahu's government, and I don't know if he's one of them or not, that believe in this Greater Israel project.

And the Third Temple and all that.

Yes. And then we have the Evangelical Christian dispensationalists, um, who, you know, by the way, you know, on social media, it's like, come on, you guys, particularly Catholic polemicists are big on this. I know half the time they're just kidding, but it's like, look, all Protestants are not evangelical dispensationalists. Like, this is Luther's fault. I'm like, trust me, if Luther was around, he'd put his foot up the dispensationalist rear end quicker than any Catholic would.

Yeah. Because he was, he was, well, he had a book called "On the Jews."

Well, yeah, there's that.

I don't think he'd be favorable towards Israel.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, but, but I mean, but I mean, that whole viewpoint that that you get from the Hagees and the Paula Whites and some of these people that, um, we have.

What you just said makes a lot more sense. If anything, these groups strike me as more messianic than Iran in a way.

In some ways. I mean, evangelicals in President Trump's ears, and I voted for the man three times, um, are, you know, Ted Cruz, Mike Johnson, who have, who on publicly have said, "It is America's duty as a nation, Christian nation, to support Israel." I'm like, well, is modern Israel the Israel of Moses? And I'm, I'm sure.

I don't. Well, I don't really want anybody running American foreign policy based on their interpretation of the Old Testament. And so, but you've got these people now. Well, evangelical dispensationalism for those that don't know, branch of Protestantism.

Yeah. Tell us about that. Tell us about it because that's very important because it's funny because America.

It's funny because you're going to tell us about it. But.

Most people don't realize, especially in America, because it's very prominent, evangelical dispensationalism. They don't realize that it's like literally, if you look at the totality of Christian history up until the present, it represents less than like 0.01%. A minority view.

And I even asked, uh, AI that I was like, if you took all the Christian, you know, throughout history and dispensationalism, what does it said something like 0.01%? And yet they think that everyone else is like a heretic. So speak on that.

Well, yeah, like like Carrie Gene Pene Bowler, that Catholic lady that kicked off the president's religious religious liberty commission because she questioned, she questioned some of that because most of the people on there were were Jewish and evangelical Christian, and they had a different view.

Um, look, most Christians, Catholics, Orthodox, confessional conservative Lutheran, conservative Anglicans, um, Protestants, I think, except evangelical.

Most Protestants. Yeah. Um, believe that, um, don't believe that the temple has to be rebuilt for Jesus to come back. Jesus.

They don't believe in dispensationalism in general.

Yeah. That comes from. Yes. Dispensationalism comes from a particular interpretation in a Scofield Bible.

The Scofield Bible, which came out in the 19th century, and it was a, it was a guy that that, uh, wound up being, I believe, a Presbyterian minister. I forget which denomination he wound up in, but basically it says that history is divided into different dispensations or time periods from the Old Testament to the New Testament. But one of the, and again, this is a, this is, and one of the key beliefs in dispensationalism, again, is the temple has to be rebuilt. Jesus won't come back till the temple's rebuilt. Again, the vast majority of the world's Christians don't believe that.

Uh.

But you just said this came about in like the middle of, like, this has only this idea has only been around for like 150 years.

Scofield Bible.

Yeah. Out of out of out of Christianity. It's 2,000 years.

Right?

You know, and it's just, I just, you know, I'm not necessarily, um, attacking this idea. I'm just saying the people who believe this need to understand that they are definitely in a tiny minority position, and they don't realize that. They think they're the majority.

Yes. Yes. But, but part and parcel, of course, of, um, the temple being rebuilt would be that the Jewish people would rule the land, and the temple would be rebuilt under their aegis because they're the ones that need the temple. Christians, we have a temple. His name is Jesus.

Um, you know, we don't need the, the physical temple anymore. But, but, uh, I, most Christians believe that. But, but where it becomes problematic is that is one interpretation of scripture where that is being used to inform, if not decide, policy.

Foreign policy. Yeah.

That's where it becomes problematic. Um.

So, in a way, what you're saying is, we shouldn't be hurling rocks at glass houses because, uh, about Mahdism, because if anything, it seems like we're doing it.

To some degree, you could argue that. I mean, it's a little different form, but it's, it's kind of the same viewpoint. We, you know, there are some people that believe in order for our Messiah, Jesus, the true Messiah, to come back, uh, that that that the temple needs to be rebuilt. And that includes, um, that includes, I mean, you know, the Israelis having full, full, um, authority over it, which actually they don't at the moment. Uh, and if they were to rebuild it, but what else could be guaranteed to cause World War III with the Muslims rather than destroying Al-Aqsa Mosque and and the Dome of the Rock, which you'd have to do. So, um, I mean, it's, it's unfortunate, but this is again, I'm not saying that religion shouldn't inform policy. I mean, we're a majority Christian country, and I sometimes wish that Christianity informed our policy more, but, but this is a very narrow interpretation of of a certain bit of theology that again, I, I, this is not just my opinion. I mean, Mike Johnson and Ted Cruz have both said, they're both on record, you can look it up, saying that it is America's duty as a Christian nation to support the country of Israel.

I, I look, I, Israel, three times. I don't have a problem with Israel, but that doesn't mean that I think everything Israel does is right, just like I don't think everything Finland or Japan or Russia or China does is right.

Does that make you an anti-Semite?

Well, that's what got Carrie Pene Bowler kicked off the rel, uh, religious liberty commission because several of the rabbis on there said that the definition of anti-Semitism included the the criticism of Israel. And she said, "Well, Catholics are officially, this is the position of the Catholic Church, which is again, that that the modern state of Israel is not ipso facto the same as the ancient country of Israel in terms of biblical interpretation for Christians." They kicked her off the commission.

Yeah. So, I guess, uh, you know, going back to our topic of eschatology and Mahdism, basically, um, it seems like what you said earlier is actually true. This is like a three-pronged, uh, eschatological thing. It's not, it's, if it is in Iran, and it is obviously we've established that, it's also in Israel, and it's also especially amongst the evangelicals of America.

It is.

It has a Jewish, it has a Christian Zionist, and it has an Islamic kind of manifestation, which is pretty, uh, pretty wild mix cocktail, actually, if you think about it.

Yeah, especially when you're talking about nuclear weapons or getting rid of the possibility of nuclear weapons. And.

So, bottom line, Mahdism, to you, and Islamic eschatology and 12th Imam and Shia Imam in Iran, for whatever it is, you don't see it as necessarily, um, driving Iran to any more of a hostile or or nuclear ambition or anything like that, any more than it is for realpolitik reasons, or is it adding something to it?

I, I think it, as Emerald Legasi used to say, I think it kicks it up a notch.

Okay.

But I think the primary reason that Iran wants nuclear weapons is they are, to a large degree, a pariah state in the modern world, and it would keep them from suffering. The leadership thinks it would keep them from suffering the fate of Muammar Gaddafi.

Yeah. Yeah. That was a pretty sordid fate, actually.

Yeah.

You're right. I mean, I think the lesson we have to be honest and realistic, you know, the whole point of for nuclear armament for so many countries, it's, and you, I, I learned this in high school. It's the balance of power. You know, if I, if I have nuclear powers and you have it, we know we're not going to kill each other, and we're going to respect each other. But the guy who doesn't have it, well, we can bully him and kick him around.

And, um, so I think that is the lesson everyone's seeing at this point, and which is why they want nuclear weapons.

What would, would we, and the Israelis be bombing the daylights out of Iran if they had nuclear weapons?

No.

No.

No. That's why that's why Little Rocket Man can get away with, you know, being.

His own people, his own people eat tree bark while he, you know, watches Western porn and enjoys his nuclear weapons.

Yeah. So definitely, uh, yeah. Yeah. I know you have to leave, but I got, I think I see a couple questions for you. So, let me, um, let me throw them up if you got a second. Here's one.

Lies Destroy Lives. Tim, you mentioned the importance of the church. I'm a big fan of.

McDonald, as was C.S. Lewis. Yeah, George McDonald. As was C.S. Lewis. Have you read his "Unspoken Sermons"? He strongly emphasized trust, obedience, and prayer.

I have not read McDonald. I think I've read everything C.S. Lewis has written. You should read McDonald, and I've read, um, "Unspoken Sermons." Really great stuff, actually. Um.

He's a very underrated, um, uh, theologian from the, you know, 19th century. Um, I saw another one for you. Let me get it real quick. All right.

Lies Destroy Lives. But Tim, you only need one crazy Ayatollah.

I don't need any Ayatollahs, but I assume you mean to launch nuclear weapons or something.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah. Well, I don't think they're going to let one crazy Ayatollah have control of her nuclear weapons. But look, I'm not saying Iran, I'm not saying Iran should have nuclear weapons. I'm just saying if we're going to approach this, let's approach it, you know, it's like, it's akin to this thing where everybody has to be Hitler for us. Can we please get off that Hitler thing?

S's Hitler, Khamenei's Hitler, Putin's Hitler. I mean, the sad thing about that is you really desensitize people from the word Hitler, and now Hitler has no, he's not Hitler doesn't mean anything bad because if everyone's Hitler, he loses his.

Everyone's Hitler, no one's. It's like anti-Semitism. Look, there is anti-Semitism. I'm not saying there's not. But when everything is anti-Semitism, then turn it off. They don't want to hear it anymore.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Um, let's see if there was anything else for Trump is not. Uh, do, do you need to go or do you want to continue a little bit?

I can go a little bit.

All right. Um, okay. So, I mean, what I think we're, we're finally coming to the most important points here. Um, because this is what everyone wants to know. The reason this.

The whole business about Islamic eschatology and Mahdism is important, especially now, because of the current war with Iran. And you know, I get asked this all the time. And you know, this is one of the reasons, to be quite frank with you, why I wanted to talk to you. Because the assumption is, well, the Mahdi and the eschatology, this is why we've got to go get Iran and, you know, and disarm them because they're all lunatics, and once once they have power, they're going to nuke the entire world and usher in the Mahdi. And there are actual, you know, serious analytical papers that try to make this point. And, um, you know, like you, I agree that it, it turns it up a notch. I don't think it's the fundamental drive behind whatever nuclear, nuclear aspiration. I think that's more pragmatic, of course. But I do believe it, of course, it accents it, makes it a little more dramatic.

Um, but, you know, what, what again, you know, any, any other final kind of thoughts? Because that is the question. That's the one that everyone's, that's burning. So, by all means, exhaust all your thoughts on this question.

I, I, I, I just don't support this war. I mean, you know, I, and again, I.

Okay. Yeah. Tell, tell me your thoughts about this war. So, okay, someone's going to make this question. Someone's going to say, "Look, you guys just proved Islam is violent." I do that all the time. I talk about it historically. I talk about it in the modern era. I talk about it's inherently intolerant. And, um, and, and you do too, to some degree or other. And so, therefore, the assumption is, you know, we have to support this war because Muslims are bad, right? So, do, do you agree with that logic from premise to conclusion?

Well, I agree with the, the basic assumption but not the conclusion. Because, I mean, what, what was Iran doing differently?

I, I mean, first of all, the president campaigned. There's clips of this. I was listening to Megan Kelly the other day, and she's playing all the clips where President Trump said, you know, during the campaign, uh, "I won't get us into a war in the Middle East. You know, Kamala Harris will." And like, I know you have to, once you're in power, you can, you can't always be be held to those things because situations change. But how did the situation radically change? Iran's been a thorn in our side for years. We know that Iran was behind militias that killed Americans in Iraq during our occupation of Iraq. We know that they also probably helped the, probably even helped the Taliban kill Americans under the premise of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, um, even though they're, you know, otherwise they hate each other. But we've known this for years. Why is it that we suddenly decided we had to wage this massive air war in Iran? Because they hadn't radically changed anything from what we had done been done in the past. I mean, if we were going to do this to Iran, why didn't Trump do it in his first term?

I was surprised to see that video. I'm sure you've seen it. And, uh, where they have Netanyahu literally from the '90s saying they're about to get nuclear weapons any day now.

Yes. Yes.

Have you seen that?

Which has become, yes. And which has become now a meme. You've seen people are putting up like, you know, like, like Steelely from Hammurabi that say, you know, "Persia will have nuclear weapons any day now," or the Mesopotamians or somebody. It's like, look, if I was Iranian, excuse me, if I was Israeli, I wouldn't want the, wouldn't want them to have nuclear weapons. Um, but basically, in many ways, I feel like the United States, I don't feel like the United States is sort of fighting this war for Israel.

Well, I mean, that's, that's the prevalent sentiment, obviously.

Well, and I voted for a guy who would deal with our $38 trillion debt and deal with the fact that my older son can't afford to buy a home and deal with that sort of thing. Um, and again, I don't think, you know, yes. Did you have a simmering low-grade cold war between Israel and Iran? Yes, we've had that since 1979. Um, again, I don't think things radically changed enough to warrant this massive air war we're waging. And, um, and again, I don't think Iran, are the Iranians, you know, eschatological, apocalyptic minded to a degree that some of the other Muslims aren't. Yes. Um, to what degree have they really enacted that their foreign policy? I would say I don't really think that's heavily influenced their foreign policy. Their foreign policy more has just been influenced by the fact that Iran's trying to put itself into the position of leadership of the Islamic world. One of the ways to do that was to be very upfront and open about their opposition to Israel when other countries like, you know, Saudi Arabia pretty much abandoned that sort of policy. Um, so I.

I have an observation. I'd like to get your your opinion on this because this is something I've said that is apparently controversial to some people and they don't like to hear it. But I've often pointed out, you know, in the current climate, and it has been for a long time. When Western people, especially the evangelical types, we're talking about, talk about radical Islam and the need to fight it, it's always Iran. Okay? And I'm on record, you know, just because it's the truth that the real problem, if you want to be serious, it's Sunni Islam. It's not Shia Islam. Totally.

Historically and in the modern era. Okay. And so if you want to talk about the countries that breed terrorism, well, that would be our good friend Saudi Arabia, it would be, uh, you know, Pakistan, it would be Sunni nations. And so I really find it hypocritical when, you know, Western, whoever voices, influencers, politicians, theologians basically say, "Well, we're fighting Iran because it's the head of the radical Islamic snake." And, uh, no, that's, that's actually kind of hypocritical because at the same time, Israel and the United States are allied with Saudi Arabia. So if you really, if this was about fighting radical Islam, you would actually be attacking Saudi Arabia, not Iran. What, what are your thoughts?

No, I totally agree with you, Raymond. If you look at the, uh, foreign, the State Department list, the foreign terrorist organizations, um, I believe there's maybe one or two Shia groups on that list. The rest of them are all Sunni.

And how many would the rest be? Like dozens?

Uh, I think there was 69 in of the last group.

So 69, two would be.

I think Trump did, Trump did designate like seven or eight of of the cartels as terrorist groups.

But something like 70% of them are Muslim and 68% of them are Sunni.

Yeah. Um, because Sunni Islam, jihad, again, there, there, much like with Mahdism, there are some institutional brakes, I think, on Shiaism when it comes to things like that. Starting with the fact that there's this prominent bit of theology, you probably know this, a lot of people don't, that that only defensive jihad can be waged in the absence of the Mahdi. You cannot wage offensive jihad until the Mahdi comes. Well, since he's not here, I mean, you could argue on the margins about what qualifies as defense of jihad, but that, that is a very strong concept in Shia Islam. You don't have that in Sunni Islam, basically.

Well, I mean, even, even the, like, you know, even the historical examples you gave, which are the ones I know of prominent Mahdis who were, who had an intricate connection to jihadism, were all Sunnis. Oh, yeah.

So even in the context of Mahdism, which we're talking about, which seems particular to Iran.

Everybody in my book that I go over this is my old book, my dissertation.

That's a great book. I got it. Read it. Liked it.

Thank you, Raymond. It's boring. It's very boring, as, as it would be, a dissertation turned into a book is always boring. But, um, but, um, everybody I talk about in that, and we talked about a couple of them here, but every group I talk about, they're Sunni.

Yeah.

Yes.

Because Sunni Islam is the real issue. So that's, yeah, that's why I've always had a problem with, look, you want to go to war with Iran and the nuclear thing. Okay, you treat that from a, you know, pragmatic realpolitik point of view. I'm happy with that. But when you say it's because they're radical Islam, honestly, it's, uh, that, that just strikes me as really hypocritical.

Here's, yeah, you're exactly right. Here's the way I would put it. Iran, politically and geopolitically, yes, is the world's foremost state sponsor of terrorism. At least it has been. I'd have to see the date if that needs to be updated. But theologically, I would argue Shia Islam is less prone to jihadism than Sunni.

Right.

In the Sunni world, um, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, two of the prominent examples that you brought up,

they're politically, they may not sponsor terrorism, but the brand of Islam they espouse, particularly Saudi Arabia, and disseminate around the world is the very basis of jihad.

Exactly. And that's, that's the point. You're right about, you know, the political, geopolitical aspect of Iran, and it should be condemned for that. But what I am talking about is that it's these Sunni nations, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. They're the ones who are who are fueling this whole thing. Whether literally, Saudi billions of, you know, zakat money going to fuel jihadist organizations or even more, um, you know, surreptitiously with all the literature that they flood Western European mosques with, it's all Salafi jihadist type stuff. And yet, you know, we don't say anything about, uh, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. They're our friends. We, we would, we're not going to attack them. But so my point is again, yeah, attack Iran for its geopolitical role in terrorism, but, you know, at the same time, it, it's just, you, you kind of expose a bit of hypocrisy when you give like, you know, a pass for these other countries. You, you really expose that this isn't about combating radical Islam, is what really happens.

Right. Right.

Right. And Iran's a convenient, and not, you know, they've certainly have asked for it over the years. They're a convenient, you know, scapegoat, but, but, you know, they've, they've earned that very well by their stupidity in terms of foreign policy. Um, so, so, but again, I think the bottom line is, as you've correctly observed, it's, I, I would agree that I don't think that, uh, the 12ism is really not the driver of their foreign policy that a lot of people try to make it out to be. They are driven by more mundane geopolitical concerns. Uh, again, as we said, spiced up a bit by the.

And you're someone who's been studying this, who's been to the country since, you know, the 1990s. Um, so, you know, that's why we really wanted to talk to you because, uh, you know, you're someone who's got, who's done their homework. Your dissertation was about Mahdism and its role throughout history and in in the present. So, it's actually very telling that someone like you, um, as opposed to, you know, some just screaming talking head is going to talk about how, well, we got to bomb Iran because they're gonna, they're trying to bring the Mahdi tomorrow. So, it's, uh, I'm happy to hear this and, and, and I'm glad to have had you talk and kind of enlighten us on this really important topic.

Well, I appreciate it, Raymond. Thank you.

Yeah, and I think I'll let you go now because I know I've kept you a lot longer than, uh, we, we agreed. So, thanks for joining me, Tim. Um, I'm going to continue with some of these, uh, super chats and, um, I'll be in touch. We'll do another, uh, live stream about, um, all the, um, mischief that the history textbooks are causing.

All right. All right.

Thank you.

All right. Take care.

All right.

Bye-bye.

All right. That was Tim Furnish, everyone. Dr. Timothy Furnish. Uh, I urge you to go check out his books. Um, go into the description box of this video. There's a link to his website. Follow him, um, and check out his books. I actually learned a lot of them. I, his book that he showed, that one, Holy Holiest Wars, I have that book and I think I read it. It was one of the earliest books I read back in, um, I don't know, 2006 maybe. Um, and he and I have been in touch since. Uh, really good guy. I'm glad we had him to talk about this. So, I am going to take some of the rest of the super chats and, um, the scorpion king. The only way Muslims will ever change is if they separate religion of state, if they separate religion and state. They learn to treat other groups as equals. Billions of Muslims have never seen women, religious minorities as equals. Yeah, you're right. Um, you know, but the problem is, separating religion and state is anathema to Islam. It's not like it's not so easy that every religion can be separated from the state. The whole point about Islam was, in its origin, it was a political ideology. It is part of the state. You know, today we talked about Mahdism, which is esoteric and has a sort of metaphysical element, but the vast majority of Islam, especially again, Sunni Islam, is about the now. It's about politics. It's about how Muslim society is to be governed. That's what Sharia is. Um, so when you talk about women and non-Muslims are seen as unequals, that's because it's actually legislated by Islamic teaching, the words of the Quran, the words of Muhammad in the Hadith and so forth. So, yeah, uh, if Muslims do separate religion and state, sure, but can they, in and in any meaningful way, still remain Muslims without being obvious hypocrites who are in, in no shape or form following the religion? The scorpion king. Again, most Muslims who leave Islam become atheists. They just leave religion altogether. In the West, they assimilate into the dominant non-Islamic culture. Uh, I, I think I already pointed out that a lot of Muslims, ex-Muslims do apostatize to atheism, but I know a lot also convert to religions, almost always Christianity. Um, I know that because I see them all the time. I deal with them all the time. Um, so, okay, that's an observation and I'm not necessarily against it. I just think it's, uh, it's both. It's hard to say the majority, uh, what, what the majority is. I guess there would have to be a poll or something that's accurate. If you know one, send it. R 1019. Are you familiar with a book called Araal of Tab? A book of history that was published 601 AD. How accurate is it, if you know? It sounds familiar, but I don't know it. But a book published in 601 called Araal of Tabris sounds very interesting to me. So I'm going to have to look that up. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Um, you should have told me its significance, but I'll look into it. Snow Drifter, where are you going? Same place as you, Jeremiah. Okay. Ronnie 785. Trump is not religious. He just pays lip service for the sake of Christians. He's not a religious believer at all and has no clue about Christianity. I'm inclined to believe and agree with you. Actually, the only good thing about. You're right. Okay. He pays lip service. But that's the sad part. The fact that he pays lip service is actually seen as such a huge thing because other presidents are probably just as a-religious or irreligious as he and they don't even pay lip service. So I think that's what makes him so special to Christians. He at least pays the lip service and that, that, you know, works for him very well. Um, but I do agree that from what I've seen and heard, he's not very religious. Lives destroy lives. It wouldn't matter who ruled in Israel. They would be hated by Muslims if they weren't Muslims. Well, that's true. I've said that many times. That is one of the issues. Um, this is the doctrine of Al-Wala' wa-l-Bara'. You renounce and hate non-Muslims. So, yeah, I do believe that. I mean, we spoke, Tim spoke a lot about the Iran war and his position on that, but there are certain constants, of course, you know, even outside of the context of the war, which is, and as I've always said, when it comes to the question of Israel and the Muslim world, you know, the, again, the words of Samuel Huntington in his Clash of Civilizations, which is, "The borders of Islam are bloody." Okay? What does that mean? Which, well, it's a historic fact that wherever Muslims are adjacent to non-Muslims territorially, there's war. So it is based on that alone, and there's ample historical precedent. It's obvious that the fact that there are hostilities between Israel and its surrounding neighbors is, does definitely have a doctrinal component within Islam because the doctrine is there and the history validates it. Lies destroy lives. A lot of Iranians support this war. That's true. They want the IRGC to fall. That's true, too. Shouldn't we fight them simply to help the oppressed people of Iran? Um, sure. Is that why we're fighting them, though? Um, you know, it's a good point. And if it does help them, but what if it leads to something worse? A lot of, a lot of the countries that the US meddles in and topples this or that dictator or whoever, you know, Tim was mentioning Libya, for example, which has become a failed state. It actually ends up being worse for the people. So if your argument is we should do it for the people, okay, then we need to really reassess how it's done for the people. If that is the real argument. Um, Dan Dave. Shia Iran is a good counterbalance to Sunni extremists. They keep fighting each other and are totally divided. We want that, just no nuclear for them. Yeah, sure. Um, having Sunnis and and and Shias quarrel is of course a cynical but strategic, uh, way to keep them, you know, busy fighting themselves. So that's maybe something for the CIA to engage in. Not that it hasn't, of course, but, uh, yeah, logical. Snow Drifter. This was a reference to his favorite movie, Jeremiah Johnson. All right, Tim was mentioning that. Can't wait to read the rest of your books though. Good. I think you're talking about Timmy. Tim Furnish. Yeah, good. JS. With this war, so many things are being taken care of. American financial system is replacing the Bank of London in 90 years of power. William McKinley original plan. Okay. Um, I don't know much about that. Sounds interesting. Thanks for sharing. Ronnie. Being a Muslim is basically a form of top-tier citizenship. You have all rights, whereas non-Muslims are outcasts. People talk white male privilege. White men got nothing in front of Muslim men. But yeah, again, this goes back to Islamic teaching and doctrine, which is inherently supremacist. Muslims are of course privileged in a, uh, in a socioeconomic or political paradigm. Basically, a Muslim society, non-Muslims are openly degraded and kept as a second-class, at best, citizen. That is again, going back to the other observation, a part of the religion. Okay, it's mandated in the actual core texts of Islam, the Quran and the Hadith. This sort of, uh, uh, um, oppressive attitude towards the non-Muslim who lives amongst the Muslims. Optimum Prime. No, Optimum Precepts. Okay, I'm thinking of, what am I thinking of here? Optimus Prime. What is that? Transformers. All right. '80s flashback. Do you think Turkey will attack Israel in the future? Is Turkey still trying to regain control of the former Ottoman Empire? Do I think Turkey will attack Israel in the future? Well, let's look at the second one. If it does try to regain control of the former Ottoman Empire, and there is some evidence for that, especially in the context of Erdogan himself, that he's often seen and styles himself as some sort of neo-Ottoman sultan with grand aspirations. So certainly, if part of it is to regain the former Ottoman Empire, well, Israel, modern-day Israel, was part of the Ottoman Empire before it became came into being right after World War II. So the logical next step of course would probably be to attack it, um, and attack actually even the other Muslim countries in order to bring them under the fold, actually, of Ottoman rule. So, but yeah, such is the nature of Islam. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. I hope this was an edifying and enlightening, um, episode with Timothy Furnish on a pretty hot topic that keeps coming up and a lot of people keep asking about, asking me about, asking others about. So, we figured we'd, we wanted to, um, actually formally address it. Here's one more super chat. Ronnie. Did Islam come from some weird form of Christianity? Like Muhammad misunderstood Christian terms like son of God, thinking Jesus is like a biological son. Was Mo some kind of Christian before Islam? All right. These are a lot of interconnected questions. Um, so there is a theory that Muhammad, of course, was, well, it's not much of a theory. I think it's the truth. He, he was, um, influenced by, I believe, a Nestorian Christian, which would be considered heretical at the time. And historians, their christology was such that it humanized, uh, Jesus is human, of course, but he's equal God, equal human, according to Council of Nicaea. But the Nestorian branch, which is even after the Council of Nicaea, um, this is, uh, this is actually after the Council of Chalcedon, I believe, where the big split happens. But long and short of it is, I think Nestorianism really kind of, um, undermines or minimizes Jesus's divine aspect in favor of his human aspect, which of course, if that's the case, would make sense that Muhammad insisted that Jesus had no, was not the son of God, was not divine. And yes, there is some thinking that he thought of Jesus as a biological son because in the Quran, when it attacks the Trinity, it doesn't attack God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It attacks God the Father, Mary, and Jesus. So it seems to think that God and Mary populated and, um, had Jesus. Uh, so definitely there seems to be a lot of confusion in that regard. And it's late at night. I may be, I may be getting some things wrong, but I don't think I am. I'm sure someone will correct me, of course, if, if I did. But there it is. Okay. Thank you all for joining me and, um, stay tuned for another live stream soon and many more videos to come. And, um, if you're not subscribed, subscribe. And also check out my, uh, growing and rather new Substack. All right, take care. Bye.