Transcription
I'm glad to welcome Lucy Guo back to the stage. Lucy, uh, co-founded Scale AI at the age of 20, 21 years old. She, uh, now runs Passes, a content, you know, creator platform, and is a, you know, successful VC investor in her own right. Um, she is the youngest self-made woman billionaire in the world. She's about as wealthy as Taylor Swift, and she's five years younger than Taylor Swift.
"I think Taylor still might be more liquid."
That's probably true, but she might trade the, the five years for the, for the liquidity.
Uh, so can you just walk us through, you know, you've started a couple very successful companies very young. Uh, what's your origin story? You know, how do you become the, the wealthiest, you know, self-made woman billionaire in the world?
Yeah. Um, I always think that everything is a combination of luck and hard work. But I do think I got the drive to be an entrepreneur pretty early on. Um, grew up with immigrant parents who really emphasized education and money. Um, and I really just took in the money aspect because I wanted to buy things that I could not afford or I was not allowed to buy. For example, I was not allowed to skateboard or buy a dipstick, and I wanted to buy one. So I figured out how to make money on my own. It started off just like in the playground, you know, selling Pokémon cards, colored pencils, anything I could find. And then, um, I discovered the internet where I could have internet money, um, that my parents could not take away from me as punishment. So, um, that's when I started creating bots on Neopets. Um, created my own virtual pet site, arcade game websites, like, really everything that I could like throw an ad on, essentially.
Um, and fast forward, when, first off, how old were you when you were doing all of these things?
Um, I was in second grade when I was making the bots. I started creating my own websites in around like third grade, just off of WordPress, but, you know, like literally sticking every single annoying ad on these websites. I, I remember I would like, submit these websites on StumbleUpon and just a bunch of different services to, you know, gain traffic on them. Um, so I would get paid per impression. Um, I was, got very clever around like, I think like fifth and sixth grade, where I realized that, um, because I wasn't allowed to watch TV, so I would watch TV like shows on the internet. I started creating my own websites where I would like, you know, search up popular TV show names like, um, Pretty Little Liars, Vampire Diaries, etc. And I would just buy the domain name, like watchvampirediaries.net, and then I would find a trailer for an episode that didn't exist yet, and then Photoshop a play button on top, and then stick ads on the site and submit it to every streaming service possible. Um, so people would, you know, hit the website trying to find an episode that didn't exist, and I'd make money off of it.
And so what, you know, before we move on to your incredibly successful career after, you know, your, your very successful career as a, as a, you know, child, um, you know, are there any, is there any mindset or any, any lessons that you learned from those early hustles, you know, that that carried you forward in your, you know, when you, when you started Scale AI and even?
Yeah, I think the main thing is like, um, the first is like, not everything is a risk. Like things might feel risky, but it's not. So, um, when I dropped out of college, I remember a lot of my peers, my family, obviously, um, didn't agree with that decision, but in my head, I was like, "Okay, like, it's not really a risk because like, I'm not like, the most I lose is like a few years, right? I can always go accept a job offer, I could go back to college." Um, but your network is your net worth, and that's something I realized very early on too, where I believed that doing the T fellowship would open doors for me, um, because people would just be more willing to talk to me because I was a T fellow. I kind of also learned this early on in high school, where someone had just given me advice, "Hey, like, if you email a VC, um, like, just send a cold email, they're more likely to respond to you because you're a kid, and everyone wants to help kids out." Um, so, and, and that was true. Like, I cold emailed VCs and I would actually get responses versus if I weren't who I am today, and I cold emailed a VC, I don't know if I would get a response.
Um, so, uh, I think those are probably like, and in optimizing for learning. So I think like those are the three lessons that probably got me to where I am today because the second I got bored, like, I was known as someone that would like, you know, job hop a lot, right? But, um, for me, it was like, when I stopped learning and I felt like I was no longer growing, um, even though I was leaving like millions of dollars behind, I felt like it made sense to make my next career move because the knowledge I would be gaining would be valuable later on in life.
And so those three, three key lessons there, I'd love to run through all three of those. So the first one, uh, it's not that much of a risk. Yes. A couple questions. One is, how responsive to that argument were your parents at the time? And, uh, and, you know, do you have any advice for other people who might be, you know, in this room and have had similar conversations or thinking about having similar conversations, you know, maybe with their parents?
Yeah. So, I mean, education gave my parents everything they had in life. So I fully understood that they felt like I was throwing away their sacrifices when choosing to drop out of college. Um, that being said, I think that, uh, they didn't really realize how good my job offers were that I already had before leaving college. So, uh, they weren't, you know, they weren't happy about it, but, um, and then they, like, now they, they're like, "Oh, like, there was a different path to success outside of like, getting your college degree." And we understand that.
Yeah. And, you know, you had also mentioned, um, you know, VCs being willing to answer a kid's email. I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, the ways that you think youth can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage.
I mean, I think youth is an advantage in many ways. Um, like, as a kid, you have so much free time nowadays, right? So, like, if you have that free time, like, spend some of it learning about technology in the future. Uh, I think that you have less responsibilities. Uh, for example, like when you have a family and you have kids, you just have less time to experiment, and like, every, like, spending a few years not making as much is actually meaningful because you have to support that family versus like, as a kid, you don't really need any resources. Uh, like, if you're a kid, literally a kid, you're living at home with your parents. But if you know, you're in your early 20s, um, like, I was couch surfing and drinking Soylent and figuring out how to like, you know, have free food through all these VC sponsored apps. It was great, actually. I was literally living for free. Yeah, it was fine. Like, I was fine couch surfing. I didn't need a bed. Like, I didn't need a house or family. Uh, and then I think if you're in college specifically, um, it is the best time to find your future hires and your future co-founders because there's no time any, like, there's no other time in your entire life where you're going to be in such a dense network of intelligent people that all want to be friends with you because they have no friends, right? Like, quite literally, when you go from high school to college, it's the only period in your life where everyone is starting a new life and no one has any friends. So everyone's willing to get to know you.
Yeah. Okay. And then, you know, um, you know, it's, it's easy to say you don't have a lot to lose. You don't have a lot of money to lose. You don't have a lot of time to lose. Worst case, you lose a couple years. I think when you're in that moment, and I think probably a lot of people, you know, out here are probably somewhere, you know, in that moment, it doesn't feel that way. You know, a lot of the time you feel like maybe anxious to to get things going now. Uh, you do feel like you need to to make money now. So, you know, do you have any advice for, you know, how to have the the fortitude, I guess, to, uh, to actually go and, and, you know, take that risk?
I mean, the way I've always thought about things is if it's not life-changing, then like, if I'm not leaving life-changing money behind on the table, then it just makes sense to, you know, go do the next thing. And again, like, it's optimizing for learning because even if I don't make life-changing money with my next endeavor, I will have that knowledge that'll be valuable in the future, and I'll always be able to get that job back. Like, if you're a high performer, your job is still there. Like, your company will very happily take you back, right? Um, so just like, knowledge is, I think, just the key to success. So if you think you're going to learn more doing another endeavor pursuit, um, it makes more sense in the long term, like, it's an investment.
And, you know, you, you dropped out of school, you know, you're studying computer science to, you know, to become a T fellow. Um, but you know, you had taken before you, you know, co-founded Scale AI, you had taken a couple jobs in Silicon Valley, right? You had worked at Quora, you had worked at Snap. So how important do you think it was, I guess, all of these different educational experiences that you had? You know, you learned all these things growing up. You, you know, learned some stuff, you know, in college, you know, while you were there. Then you took these jobs, you know, all before you went to co-found a company. What do you think was the most important or most instructive? You know, and, and do you think that doing all of those things made you more well-rounded, or do you think you could have skipped college altogether, or, you know, you needed to go or?
Yeah. So, I actually don't think I could have skipped college altogether. And I think that was the most important for me. Um, because that was where I gained that network of people that I ended up hiring as my first hires. Uh, because they're the, like, you're this crazy kid, and like, you may have raised funding, but you're like, "Hey, like, you should not take millions of dollars that other companies are offering you and come work for me." And the only people that are going to do that are people that have worked with you and believe in you and got close to you. Um, and those happen to just be the people I went to college with. Uh, so I actually suggest everyone to college for like one to two years because of what I said before, which is that it's the only time in your life that you're going to meet highly intelligent people that all really want to be your friend.
Um, and then I think that working at Quora and Snap, because they were two such different companies in the way they operated, helped me understand how I would want to operate my company. So, for example, at Quora, um, they basically ran a philosophy that the product was absolutely perfect, um, and all they needed to do is A/B test every single part of the funnel, um, and optimize. So, for example, like, let's A/B test and like get more signups. Then we need to A/B test certain features to get more questions asked, then more answers. And as the flywheel goes, um, the company grows. Versus at Snap, A/B testing wasn't really a thing. Um, it was just like all product innovation. Like, I remember being shocked the first day I walked in because I saw how Evan was trying to compete with Google, compete with Amazon, etc. And these were things that I would have never imagined Snap to really be. So, he was much more of a visionary founder. But I do think the right answer is like being in the middle because, um, you do need to optimize certain parts of the funnel. Like, I learned that like, you know, changing one word on a signup page can affect conversions by 30%. Which is absolutely crazy to me still to this day. Um, and that does have a drastic effect on your numbers, but also it's important to like, really think big and be a visionary.
And so, you know, you co-founded Scale AI, 2016, you know, sort of, uh, you know, feels like a forever ago in the world of, you know, AI. Uh, pretty famously had a falling out with your co-founder and left, you know, after a couple of years. What lessons can we all draw from that experience? You know, what did you learn, and what might others learn, you know, in terms of, you know, co-founding a company with somebody, and sometimes things don't go according to plan?
Yeah, I think the main thing is that if you can't be your co-founder's biggest cheerleader, um, it's probably not great to, um, be their co-founder. Just because when, like, things go wrong in a company, and like, you know, it's always going to be a roller coaster, and you guys can't align on a decision, um, if you're going to be bitter about it, like, you're going to have a falling out, like, you guys are going to butt heads. But at the end of the day, when, like, other people at the company are looking at, like, I guess, like the decisions the company is making, and you can't stand beside your co-founder, even if you have disagreements, that's just going to cause issues. Like, you have to be your co-founder's biggest cheerleader.
And so, just moving along, so I'd love to talk about Passes. Uh, you know, could you just walk us through sort of what it is? And what I'd really love to hear about is, you know, what do you see going on in the creator economy right now? You know, and, and what are the opportunities that are out there for, you know, people who are looking to be creators?
Yeah. So, um, we're building infrastructure to help creators monetize their brand. And, um, this really became inspired due to the fact that like, I saw creators really building these like unicorn companies. So, Mr. Beast with Feastables, that's actually the main reason his net worth is so high. Um, Logan Paul with Prime, Jake Paul with W and Better, etc. And I think we're going through a phase right now, like after Kylie built her lipstick brand, um, creators are realizing that they are the brand, right? Um, I think that a lot of founders are also realizing and willing to give up double-digit percentage equity because they see that with creators, um, they no longer need to spend money on customer acquisition costs because the creators are able to convert. Um, so what I see the future being is creators really like being businesses. Um, I don't necessarily see creators being, you know, like the CEO, though. Like, I think that what's going to happen is, um, operators are going to partner with creators and are going to act as like chief creative officers, um, and really do the marketing behind a brand and, um, offer, you know, like creative inputs. Um, but I think a lot of creators are starting their own venture funds. They're like grabbing equity in companies, etc. And this is going to be the trend going forward, um, because everyone wants to build generational wealth, which I think is why creators are so interested in tech right now because they're seeing like, this is how a lot of new money is being built.
And so, you know, I would love to, you know, Randall had said earlier today that there are probably several billionaires, future billionaires, you know, out in the in the crowd today. Um, you know, you managed to hit the milestone at a, at a very, you know, early age. Um, you know, at the time, you had, you had said to Forbes that, you know, you don't think about it very much, and, uh, you know, it's not very liquid. Uh, has your perspective on any of that changed? I mean, what's, what's your reaction, I guess, to, you know, being the world's youngest self-made billionaire?
Uh, my life's pretty much the same. You know, I'm still waking up at 5:30 AM, going to Barry's, going to work. Like, we work in the office every single day of the week. So, um, I just go to work, then go home.
Yeah. And, you know, you're very famously very frugal, you know, trying to get a deal on Uber Eats or something like that. Uh, is there a point where you can relax on that, or do you think that that's a mindset that everybody should always have?
I mean, I would say relax on it, but I'm Asian, so it's almost just like a game, right? Like, I get excited getting deals. Um, and free things. I really like free things.
All right. And so, you know, I guess in closing, what's the, what's the biggest takeaway from, from your short but, you know, very, uh, high journey, I guess, to to success that everybody else can, can take away? If there's one thing that, you know, you think people could take away from your story, what is it?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's optimized for learning and always be willing to help people out. Um, because everyone that you, like, help out unselfishly, like, I do think karma is a real thing. It comes back at you, and when you are successful, I think you should reinvest into the ecosystem. So nowadays, I'm literally just trying to find all my favorite products and like, you know, people that I just believe in and reinvest in them. Um, cuz I remember what it was like, you know, first starting out, and I had all these people just help me with like, no questions asked, and I don't think I would be here today without, um, doing that. Oh, and then I would say, just like, ask for things. Because I think people are too scared to like, ask. Um, and I mean, like, you will get a yes, most likely, no matter what. Like, people are going to, like, there's going to be someone willing to give their time. There's going to be someone that's going to give you money. Um, and I think that people are too scared for of rejection. But, um, you just have to be like, "A no is okay, whatever." Like, you get a no, right? Like, what's the worst thing that happens? Like, it hurts your ego a little bit, but like, the first yes you get is going to change your life.
Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for starting your, uh, DJ career here at. Appreciate it.
I know. I'm excited. Thank you for letting me DJ here.