The King James Bible Problem in the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1610 | LDS Discussions Ep. 09

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dulin. We are, uh, well into an amazing, what I think is, historic series on Mormon Stories about, uh, Mormon Church truth claims, um, based on the amazing work of, of lay, I'll call him a lay scholar, Mike, um, who has put together an amazing website, uh, called, uh, LDS Discussions, that can be found at LDSdiscussions.com. And we have covered so many cool topics so far, on treasure digging in the Book of Mormon, um, and, uh, we are now just, uh, starting to also talk about anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, which we just recorded an episode on. And today, we have an episode that kind of follows on that, where we're going to be talking very specifically about the King James Bible problem in the Book of Mormon. And that's the episode for today. And I think that a lot of Mormons would never even think that the King James Bible appearing in the Book of Mormon would in any way be problematic, because, hey, they're both scriptures. It's the stick of Joseph, it's the stick of Judah. They belong together. So why wouldn't the King James Virgin Bible appear in the Book of Mormon, right?

Yeah, I mean, that's just it. And so it's one of those things where, like, for me, as a believer, I never really thought about it, just because you're just, that's just it is what it is, right? You just use the King James Bible language and all that. Um, so, you know, it ends up being one of those things where the problem gets deeper the more you look into it. And kind of, as we've been doing, all these episodes are building on each other. And that's why, um, I think on this episode, you're going to see a little overlap, but it's because now all of these things we've been talking about are kind of colliding together in a way that I hope will not just make this episode more meaningful, but maybe make those previous ones that you've listened to or watched a little more meaningful as well, because it's starting to tie these things back together.

Yeah. Yep. So there'll be a tiny bit of overlap, as there always will be. But this is a really important episode. Um, what, what's the, uh, the link for this, the essay for, um, that corresponds with this episode can be found at LDSdiscussions.com/KJV. We'll include a link, um, to that essay in the show notes, along with other, um, essays and episodes and topics and, and references that we make. We also let people know at the outset that we're including, if you just wait, you know, at least a few days to a week after these episodes are released, um, we have show notes and time codes where you can actually jump to portions of the interview that you want to hear. We're trying to balance, um, not going too fast for people that are new to these episodes, or to these issues, but also not going slow to people that have been studying this stuff for a long time. We hope we're striking a good balance. We're doing our best, uh, to do so. But also, feel free to slow these down at 0.8 speed or 0.75 speed if you think me or Mike talk too fast, or if the topics are too advanced. And if you've heard all this before and you just want to get to the meat, feel free to speed it up to 1.25 speed, or one and a half speed, or even two speed. Or you can use the time codes to jump backwards and forwards as you wish. But please, in your feedback, understand we're trying to make these, uh, these episodes meaningful and relevant to people, no matter where they are on the spectrum. So try to be kind in your, in your feedback.

Um, all right. Well, why don't you go ahead and give us, oh, oh, and I'll just say one last thing, as we try and say in all of our episodes, we are not doing this to destroy faith. We're not doing this to tear down the Mormon Church, or to take people out of the Mormon Church. We're doing this entire series under the, in the spirit of informed consent. We believe that everyone should know what the Mormon Church truth claims are, and what the evidence is that supports them, because so many important decisions are made in people's lives based on these truth claims, and the history and the context, um, that they're provided, whether they're born in the church, or an investigator, or they're looking into the church now. So it's the, it's the spirit of informed consent, and not any desire to destroy. Uh, that hopefully informs these episodes. And we promise to do our best to be as respectful as possible. And sometimes we come off as critical, but I think that's only when the evidence just really merits it. But even when the evidence merits criticism, we're still going to try and be as respectful as we can.

Yeah, I mean, and again, it's just, it's one of those things where I think for me, um, I look at it like we talk about, you know, it's not, we're not door-to-door telling people who are in the church, like, hey, you're wrong. This is for me, uh, my belief is that most people that come across LDSdiscussions.com are already having questions. And so it's about giving, what I feel the evidence leads us to, and giving the sources for that, and giving the apologetics that the church gives to try to explain why I don't think they necessarily work for these topics. And so the real goal here was, like I said, at the beginning of these episodes, I was asked to put this together as a way to show whether or not the truth claims of Mormonism were true or not. And, um, so everyone who watches these or listens, this can do with with it what they want. But I also think even if you disagree with the outcome of where I'm at, at least you can hopefully acknowledge that this evidence is out there. Um, and maybe it won't change the way you feel about certain things, but maybe it will allow you to maybe be a little more nuanced with things, or maybe it will help your relationships with family members who leave. There's a lot of different, I think, hopefully outcomes that can come from this, um, from people having a better understanding of the issues and the evidence, um, to kind of understand where other people are coming from as well. So hopefully, even if you disagree with the, the ultimate outcomes of these overviews, it'll at least give you some perspective that'll help you elsewhere. You know, at the same time, and if you're a Mormon bishop, or Mormon stake president, or mission president, or a church education assistant, seminary or institute instructor, or even a Sunday school teacher, or an elders quorum instructor, or relief society teacher, or youth teacher, it will help you teach an honest, accurate view of our history and of our truth claims, so you're not misleading future generations.

Yep, exactly. All right. So what is the problem with Joseph Smith using the King James Bible? Give us that overview.

Yeah, and so basically, um, this particular episode is going to, um, be a sort of getting to a culmination of what we've been talking about in these other episodes, which is why the Book of Mormon creates major problems for the truth claims of the Book of Mormon being an ancient historical text. And we're going to look at some areas of the King James Bible itself, now looking more at the text and some of the errors that are in it, um, to better understand where this material is coming from that ends up in the Book of Mormon. And just, you know, we, you know, just kind of saying it again now that we're starting to kind of build to the, you know, sort of the climax of the Book of Mormon episodes, um, in this project, uh, there's going to be some overlap, but I think it's going to be important. It should hopefully give more context to some of the earlier episodes, and also, you know, it's going to give more context to some of the biblical scholarship ones we're going to do once we get out of the Book of Mormon. So I think that this episode is going to give a lot more kind of depth to some of the stuff we've already done, and hopefully kind of set up some of the stuff we're going to do in future episodes as well.

All right. So, uh, so the next slide, um, it asks the question, why the King James Bible presents problems for the Book of Mormon?

Yeah, and this is just, again, it looks at some of the areas we've kind of covered a little bit. So there are certain things that the King James Bible is going to do for the Book of Mormon that is really going to kind of present issues. Such as, the bottom line is, it's anachronistic to be in the Book of Mormon because of the fact that this translation was not done until 1611, which means that is not an ancient translation. It's a modern, more modern translation that is not going to be accessible to the Book of Mormon people. And that becomes problematic when there are certain phrases and wordings that are unique to the King James Bible that are going to work their way into the Book of Mormon. Um, and one of the bigger things, and this is one that is kind of was interesting to me when I, when I kind of did, kind of stopped privileging the King James Bible, is the translation of the King James Bible is not considered to be one of the most accurate, and is actually considered an inferior translation to the more commonly used translations today. On the NIV, the NASB, those are different translations that are more commonly used now, because the King James Bible obviously was, was done, you know, by scholars, um, at the time. Um, but, you know, it was, again, it was done without maybe some of the, I don't think, I think it was done before the Dead Sea Scrolls, so it's not going to have as much, um, of the earlier text that some of them have. And so that is, you know, the Book of Mormon, Mormon Church, in a lot of ways, has dated because of the fact that we still use the King James Bible in it. But most churches today would not use it, just because they don't consider it to be nearly as good and as accurate. The King James Bible obviously includes the New Testament. I mean, because it is the Bible. But that should not be in the Book of Mormon. We've covered that in the anachronism episode, but we'll cover that a little bit more here as to why that presents issues. And, um, one final thing is just to say, going back almost to the early episodes, the use, using the King James Bible in the Book of Mormon goes directly against the witness accounts of the tight translation. Which is to say, we are told that the rock in the hat gives exact words that will not change until they're written down. Yet here, we're basically going to show that, and we've shown in previous episodes too, that the King James Bible is used, you know, all over the place in the Book of Mormon, which tells us that either God is presenting the King James Bible through the rock and a hat, or Joseph Smith is using the Bible, um, to pull in phrases and even big chapters of Isaiah. And, and that presents an issue when you look at the accounts that are given by the witnesses to the process.

All right. That's a wonderful overview. And are you saying that all of these bullets are going to be covered in today's episode?

Yes.

Okay. All right. Well, let's jump in.

Yeah. And so with, uh, mistranslations of the King James Version that end up in the Book of Mormon.

Yeah, and this is one we really haven't talked about too much. And so the King James Bible has errors in the translation, which is going to happen anytime you're translating an ancient text into a different language, especially one of this length. But the problem is, those errors should not appear in the Book of Mormon, given that Joseph Smith is claiming to be receiving translation of a different source that is not the KJV, through the gift and power of God. These errors, um, being in the Book of Mormon, are going to leave fingerprints as to how they got there. And then that allows you to understand who brought them into it. And so these are errors that maybe wouldn't seem like huge deals, but they do allow us from a textual standpoint to understand how they got there, and when they were put there, and who would have put them in there.

Okay. So, just to restate what I think I heard you say, is that the King James Bible, um, has errors in it, and the version of the King James Bible that Joseph Smith would have used would have contained some of those errors, and magically, those are appearing in the Book of Mormon.

Okay. So, yeah. This is some examples of that now.

Yeah. And so this is just a really quick one, which is a good one, because, um, if you look at Isaiah 2:16 in the NRSV, it says, "Against all the ships of Tarshish and against all the beautiful craft." And then in Isaiah, and the King James Bible, it says, "And upon all the ships of Tarshish and upon all the pleasant pictures." And then in Second Nephi, it says, "And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures." And we have a write-up on this overview page on LDSdiscussions.com, and we're borrowing from a write-up that explains this particular error. And what they say is, "One of the reasons I like this example is because it's a twofer. In the same verse, we have the Book of Mormon preserving a KJV mistranslation while introducing a new redaction. It's difficult to argue that God is simply, simply transmitting the KJV to Joseph, errors and all, when in the very same verse, Joseph is going to make another incorrect redaction." And if you look at our overview, overview page, we have some links to kind of show why they consider this an incorrect redaction. And then they say, "Another reason I like it is because the source of the mistranslation is clear, meaning that we know he's pulling directly from the KJV, and the implication would be that there was no Egyptian loan word that could be shifted from it."

So, really quickly, for those who just heard a bunch of words but didn't actually detect the error. So you've got an NRSV verse in Isaiah, and then a King James verse next to it. Yes. What's the error?

So in the King James Bible, they're going to say, um, "upon" instead of "against." And then instead of saying "pleasant pictures," they say, uh, instead of saying "beautiful craft," they're saying "pleasant pictures." And so Joseph Smith is going to bring in those errors from the more pride. And what's wrong, though, this is something I don't think there's any real, um, real argument on today. I don't know if it's because of the Dead Sea Scrolls, or if it's just because when you look at the original Hebrew now, they just know it's wrong. But this is one I don't think anyone argues against. So the raw, so when, when the King James scholars made this translation, and what the four, well, what 1611, when it came out, so they translated a Hebrew word to mean, uh, to be what in English? Uh, so they have it say "pleasant pictures." And the actual translation would be "beautiful craft."

Correct. Pictures. Correct. And then, also, "upon all."

Yep. The, in, in the bad, in the King James version, that's been corrected to say "against all" instead of, right?

Yes.

Okay. Yes.

Sorry. No, it's, and that's just, it's, and it's one of those things where it's like, the actual wording isn't as important as just showing that not only is Joseph Smith pulling directly in from the KJV, which is the incorrect translation, but when he's making the little changes, and that's why if you go to the, the LDS discussion KJV, we link to it, of course, these things have a ton of explanation. But he's just, to be clear for those listening, in Second Nephi 12:16, it's carrying forth the King James errors.

Yes, because I'm seeing their, um, "pleasant pictures" instead of "beautiful craft."

Yeah. And it's saying, "up," but it's saying "upon all." Oh, it shouldn't be saying "apology." It's just, he's adding in "all the ships in the sea" in front of Tarshish. So, yeah.

And so it's just, it's an example of where you can show Joseph Smith pulling directly in from the KJV, and you can't really argue he's pulling from some other source, because the KJV has this unique error, whereas the other translations don't. And so, you know, it's coming from the KJV, which is a problem. And what's your redaction?

I think the redaction, man, I need to look up because I should, I should have looked that up. Extra slide. But yeah, lots of things. Just let people know there's a redaction where Joseph, yeah, take something out, yeah, that, you know, okay, yeah. And has these tweaked things. Yeah. So it's just, it's showing that he's making these small tweaks. And that's what we're going to get into in the next slide, because this is where this is the pattern that's going to kind of pick up here as we go. I know none of us are scholars, so we're just, yeah, it's tough off top my head, I can't remember exactly why. I just, I know that it's a very long article that explains it as these things tend to go when they're talking about the specific meanings of words from these, these different texts. But, but as I know you'll admit to later, all, all biblical scholars, pretty much all biblical scholars across the world are going to agree with this, these translation issues they're highlighting, including the church's own biblical scholars, like Jim McClellan, like David Bakhoy, or Brian Hales, before they, you know, lost their faith, et cetera, right?

Yeah, I mean, these, these are not really controversial. It's more, again, it's just a problem because of the fact that we're still relying on the King James Bible. Otherwise, this would not be a big issue.

Okay. All right. That takes us to the next slide.

Yeah. This, "Words in the James Version that appear in the Book of Mormon." And this is one of the areas a lot of people point to, because obviously the italicized words in the King James Bible are there to make it more readable. And so the translators would insert words in italics that were not part of the original translation, but they did it to make the text flow a little more naturally for the readers. And this is something, James's own scholars are including italicized words.

Yes. They're not in the original scrolls.

Correct. Right. They're just what the scholars felt would be helpful to emphasize certain words.

Correct. Yeah. And so, earlier, later versions of the King James Bible, not to mention other different translations, are going to have probably either no italics, or italicized different words. Is that right?

Correct. Okay. Keep going.

And so the point is, this was well known during Joseph's time. And so W. P. Phelps, um, actually cites this in an 1833, um, article in the Morning and Evening Star, and he says, "As to the errors in the Bible, any man possessed of common understanding knows that both the Old and New Testaments are filled with errors, obscurities, italics, and contradictions, which must be the work of men." And then W. W. Phelps, actually a few months earlier, makes this a more distinctive, um, kind of claim, where he says, "The Book of Mormon, as a revelation from God, possesses some advantage over the old scripture. It has not been tinkered by the wisdom of man, where it has not been tinctured by the wisdom of man, with here and there an italic word to supply deficiency." So they're outright saying the italics are almost like a crutch to make it more readable. And W. W. Phelps is saying that because the Book of Mormon is a direct translation, it doesn't have that same problem. And as we're going to see, it, it does have that same problem.

Okay. Yeah. So let's go ahead and, uh, see if the Book of Mormon really avoids the italics problem.

Yeah. And so this is, um, from David Wright, who is a pretty, um, I think respected scholar of, of this stuff. And so he wrote extensively on Joseph's misuse of the KJV chapters of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon. And this is a good summary, um, from the problems we're mentioning when it comes to the italics. And so it says, "Depending on how conservatively you judge them, between 22 and 38% of all differences between the Book of Mormon and KJV's Isaiah parts text are associated with words italicizing the KJV. Skousen, who's a scholar that we mentioned, he's more of an apologetic scholar, calculates it at 29%." So just say 30%ish. "The difference is that only 3.6% of the words in the relevant KJV passages are italicized, so the correlation is significant." So what it's saying is that only 3.6% of the words are italicized, and yet they still account for about 30% of the differences. That's, that's a pretty telltale sign where the focus is. Um, furthermore, "40% of words italicized in the KJV are missing in their corresponding Book of Mormon passages. Of the other 60%, many passages had environmental changes related to those italics. The Book of Mormon seems to be particularly concerned with KJV italics, which suggests that it's derivative of the English KJV text rather than an ancient common ancestor. These revisions often cause problems. For example, Isaiah 51:19 reads, 'These two things are come unto thee.' The Book of Mormon changes the italicized words 'things' to 'sons.' The revision doesn't work in Hebrew, since the phrase is formulated with the feminine, whereas the word 'son' is masculine. There are many more similar examples. You can read Wright's essay." And so what this is saying is that Joseph Smith is clearly aware of the italics problem. And so as he's bringing these, these, um, chapters into the Book of Mormon, his entire, I shouldn't say his entire, a large part of his focus is on figuring out how to make the italics work. So when they say that only 3.6% of the words are italics in those Isaiah chapters, and yet about 30% of the changes are of the italics, it's telling you that an overwhelming focus is on the italics as opposed to the rest of the text. And even then, Joseph Smith is trying to sometimes change the words around the italics to make it make more sense. But in this case, when he does it, he makes an error. And these are the, like I said earlier, the fingerprints that Joseph Smith is going to leave on this text that you can tell without any question is starting with the King James Bible, and not starting with, um, words appearing on a rock and a hat. Because again, we know what version of the King James Bible Joseph Smith had in his possession, right? And so we know the source material of where this would come from. And so when you see these changes are, uh, completely dependent on the source text he had, there's really no reason that you could logically say, well, he started with what the rock on it, what the, what the seer stone was saying, and then, and then adapted it, because that, it doesn't matter when, when your source material is something that we know, you know, Joseph Smith had in his possession.

I'm just going to say, you mentioned David Wright, and I'm just going to share something that, you know, that may seem a bit jarring to some of you. Is my understanding is that David Wright was a classics professor at BYU when I was there. And my understanding is not only was he kicked out of BYU, or he left BYU because of pressure, but eventually, I believe he was excommunicated from the Mormon Church. And some of you might go, well, well, now that automatically discredits him. If he's excommunicated, then he's a bad guy and we shouldn't listen to him. But if you go back into the 19, you know, the 1990s and beyond, even starting with Fawn Brodie, you find that when a scholar is excommunicated for apostasy, be it Fawn Brodie for her book, *No Man Knows My History*, be it Michael Quinn for his book, *Joseph Smith*, you know, folk magic in the early, um, magic in the earlier Mormonism worldview, whatever the name of that book is, whether it's Grant Palmer, whether it is, uh, others, Simon Southerton, David Wright, the church excommunicates scholars historically when they reveal truths about the church's truth claims that are problematic. So if you, if you look at the credibility of Fawn Brodie's scholarship, who David, who Richard Bushman himself acknowledges is one of our top Joseph Smith scholars. When you look at how all of Michael Quinn's writings about folk magic have proven true, along with his publications about post-Manifesto polygamy and other things. And when you look at David Wright and even Brett Metcalf's scholarship, you'll find that all of them were spot on. And that yesterday's apostate excommunications become today's Gospel Topics essays and apologetics. David Wright's excommunication becomes an endorsement of the validity of his work, not a denunciation. Is that fair?

Well, yeah, I mean, I, I just, I think the fact is, we've talked about this in other episodes with different topics, but, you know, David Wright is pulling these things out, but he's not being contradicted. He's being confirmed by other scholars. And so it's not just one person. And again, you can look at the KJV and you can look at the Book of Mormon and you can do these, these comparisons for yourself. And so David Wright's problem was the fact that he was coming up with articles that were telling us there's a problem here and making it public. And obviously, I think today the church operates a little differently. Obviously, you know, they're not going to come after someone like me for it, because I think now it's just out there. But back then, David Wright was doing something that hadn't been thought of. And so I think for a long time, they tried, they did try, you know, September 6th and all that was an attempt to try to keep scholarship of the Book of Mormon faith-promoting, or else, you know, you would, you would face discipline. And I think now all of those people are being referenced in these Gospel Topics that say, I know Michael Quinn has been, I know other people have. And so it's really hard, um, when you see that to not go, you know, why would they excommunicate for telling the truth? But, but the truth is, in these cases, um, they were, because these, these things are true, they're just not faith-promoting. And so again, we've talked about this before, if your goal is to maintain faith, then your equation is that it must be true. These episodes aren't for you. But if you want to start with a clean slate and kind of get to where the evidence leads, you're going to end up in the same places that these guys did. I don't think you're going to be excommunicated for it, obviously. But, but they were excommunicated for publishing these things, which, which I'm certainly getting a lot of use out of, um, to help me understand it. So I'm thankful to them, even though I know they went through problems for doing so. And many of the church's own Gospel Topics essays reference excommunicated, you know, the scholarship of excommunicated Mormons, and they do, which validates, you know.

All right. So, yeah. So the next slide is, "Joseph Smith leaving fingerprints when dealing with the italics."

Yeah. So just as we said in the last slide, obviously it seems like there's a huge focus on the italics. And so he's aware of the problem. And we know that this is something known because W. W. Phelps mentions it twice, obviously a few years later, but it's, it's something that was not like, people obviously understood these italics had kind of stuck out a bit. And so, um, as we mentioned in the last slide, if Joseph Smith is reading the words off of a stone in the hat, and the scribes can't write down the next part until it's written, right? Why are the KJV words being pulled in, all italicized or not? And so that is something again, where we get into the type versus loose, you know, we, we have to acknowledge that Joseph Smith is using the King James Bible. And one of the best ways to illustrate how Joseph Smith is going to begin with the KJV text of Isaiah and then revise it as he saw fit, is this example that Stan Larson was able to pull from the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon. And he says, "In First Nephi 20:11, the words of Isaiah 48:11, 'How should my name be polluted?' Um, and, um, the words 'my name' are polluted, or sorry, the words 'my name' are italicized. Those words were initially revised to, 'How should I suffer my name to be polluted?' Then the KJV words, 'how should' in the Book of Mormon, I were crossed out in a super linear, super linear revision gave the final Book of Mormon declaration, 'I will not suffer my name to be polluted.' This revision shows that for a biblical quotation in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith used the English KJV as a base text for the later revision, and that's embodied in the Book of Mormon. And this is one where he actually had access to parts of the surviving printer's manuscript, and you can see those changes on the printer's manuscript, which is showing that Joseph Smith is pulling the KJV into the text, and then they made this kind of superficial change on the printer's manuscript. So we know that he started with the KJV and then made the change. And that tells you that Joseph Smith is trying to make sense of those italics and to make them work. And so in this particular case, he puts 'suffer' in front of the italicized 'my name,' and then at the end, he crosses out, um, the, um, [Music] the 'how should' or that he changes it from 'how should I suffer' to 'I will not suffer.' And again, it just shows the progression is KJV to how it was dictated to Oliver, and then the printer's manuscript has that final change. And that's a big deal because it shows us without any question where he's starting from in these Isaiah chapters. He's not starting from the seer/peep stone and then working his way back to the KJV. He's starting with the KJV and working his way to the finished product."

And you've already said this, but I'm going to ask you again. When the, when the scholars are, uh, creating the King James Version of the Bible, why are they including italics?

I think it's just because they're trying to translate this, you know, language, right? They're trying to translate, like, Hebrew into English. And when they're doing it, I think the literal translation isn't readable. It would come off kind of clunky, you know? So the italicized words, it's almost like to put, like, a filler in the middle so that it reads to you better. So when you're reading, it doesn't read super clunky. And I don't know a good example, but I'm thinking it'd be something like, you know, uh, "I went car drive home," and you might put, like, "to the" or something like, "I went to the car." So that when you're reading, and it's just, it's, to someone who wants to read these stories at night to their family, it's going to make sense. It's going to feel comfortable, as opposed to being a super clunky literal translation that's going to lose, kind of, that readability to an English audience.

Okay. So when Joseph is, is looking at the King James Bible, um, you know, behind the sheet, or however he's doing it, yeah, when he's dictating out of his King James Bible to the scribes, these italics are kind of cues to him that he's at a part of the, the verse that are, that that are problematic or need further explanation, or maybe could even be, uh, unclear in some way.

Yeah. And so, just to make sure I understand, he's, we're seeing whenever there's a change, maybe important changes between the King James Version of the Bible that he, we know he has, versus what ends up in the Book of Mormon, it's almost all, it's often times, you know, when Joseph was cued first-hand beforehand by the italics that are there.

Yeah. And then when he makes the changes, oftentimes those changes don't reflect the original Hebrew or the original sources, right, that we have in our possession.

Correct.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of the changes just don't make a lot of sense. I'm sure there are some where you could say it made it closer, but again, I would say he's making a lot of changes because he's aware that they aren't original to the text. And it just, again, leaves your fingerprint that who the author is, because they're starting from the King James Bible. They're not starting with ancient records on gold plates.

Okay. All right. The next, uh, next slide is, "New Testament material in the Book of Mormon." So have we left, we've left the italics part now. Uh, we've left the italics for now. So now we're kind of looking at some of the errors that come into the New Testament and kind of the different, different examples of errors. So now they're not all just like the same kind of error. And so it just shows that there's different areas where different kinds of errors are coming into the Book of Mormon to kind of show you that it's not just like one thing, it's, it's a lot of things. And so, yeah, this particular one, we've mentioned this on previous episodes, but any use of the New Testament materials is anachronistic because of the fact that it wouldn't have been available on the brass plates. Um, but here's an example from Stan Larson's essay that we cited, uh, in the previous slide. So Matthew 5:27 in the NRSV, which is considered a better translation, says, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'" Matthew 5:27 in the KJV says, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery." And then in Third Nephi 12:27, it says, "Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery." And so the phrase "by them of old time" is actually a late addition to the text of Matthew, which is a problem because if it's a late addition, it's not authentic to the original text. So that's a problem right there. And furthering that problem is that it's still a mistranslation of later manuscripts that include this addition. So it should, instead of saying "by them of old time," it would read "unto them of old times." So it should have said, "It is written by them unto," or "is written un by that, wait, you, to say, um, 'You have heard that it was said unto them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery.'" So what we have is a late addition to this, to the manuscripts that wouldn't be authentic to the original gospel, and a mistranslation that both end up in the King James Bible, that both get pulled into the Book of Mormon. So this is again showing that if the Book of Mormon is being translated off of ancient plates, first of all, you shouldn't have New Testament material anyways, but you certainly shouldn't have a late addition to the manuscript and a mistranslation. So this one gives you kind of three, three problems into one. And that these are the issues where the King James Bible is just giving us all of these clues as to where the foundational text is. And you cannot argue that Joseph Smith is translating off of, like, directly off of ancient scrolls, because it has something so unique to the King James Bible.

Got it. Okay. That makes sense as to why, uh, that's a problem. So, uh, now we're going to address why these little phrases matter.

Yeah. And so when you look at it, you would say, well, why does, why does the phrase "unto them of old time" matter? It's such, it's just a little throwaway phrase. Why do we care? And just, we've mentioned this in previous episodes, but if Jesus's speech is truly speaking the same words to the Americas as he did during his lifetime, as many apologists would argue, in order to give plausibility to the New Testament material being in the Book of Mormon, why is Jesus speaking to the Book of Mormon people in words that were not even original to the, um, man, to the earliest manuscripts, as well as giving improper translations of the words? And so these problems with using late editions, they're not just isolated to one passage. We've covered this in the anachronisms episode where we talk about Deutero-Isaiah, and those are going to have the same problem, where you have material in there that wouldn't have been available until Lehi left. But in this case, it's just worse, because not only is it anachronistic, but it's a mistranslation. So if you want to claim Jesus is saying the same thing, it just, you have to then answer why Jesus would speak the same thing that also has a late addition and an error. It's just, you can't make this, um, you can't reconcile this problem unless you're willing to again, as we, we've talked about in earlier episodes, give the space that kind of detaches it from the evidence. And you would not give that same space to another religion. I mean, I don't think you would.

And here's another way I'm thinking about it, just as we're processing it. Like, we all know that the whole reason we needed a Book of Mormon was because the Bible was corrupt. Like Mormons teach, "We believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly." We all, you know, we believe in the Book of Mormon to be like the, the most correct book ever. I, I just slaughtered the Article of Faith. Um, but, but basically, Mormons believe that the reason why we had the Book of Mormon is because it's pure. God to Native American prophets to Joseph Smith with the pure translation process, most correct book ever. And so that's the whole value proposition of the Book of Mormon. And then if you think about it as well, this is like God and Jesus's chance to deliver the pure, unadulterated gospel, not just to, you know, Nephites and Lamanites and their descendants, but to us, right? And so you think, if ever it's going to be pure, if ever it's going to be perfect, this is it. And so, like you said, why is this in King James English to begin with? And then why is the King James Bible in here, and the exact edition that Joseph had? And then why are the italics influencing it? And then why are there inaccuracies and problems? And the reason that's all significant is because that's, that's the whole value proposition to begin with, you know? We, we are, we are downgrading the Bible because of its problems. And so it makes no sense, and selling the Book of Mormon because of its purity. So it makes no sense that the Book of Mormon is importing the impurities of the Holy Bible into the Book of Mormon when, with a, with a magic stone and God's pure revel, revelatory power, this would have been the chance to get the pure words of Jesus, you know, straight from God's mouth, so to speak.

Yeah, and it would have been a win-win for Joseph Smith. Because if you're translating off of old brass plates and you're getting the translation that's different than the KJV, which at the time would have been jarring to the people of Joseph's time, and then over the next couple of decades or century, all of a sudden people are like, "Holy crap, the Book of Mormon's translation of Isaiah is actually closer to what we have with these better translations, with the Dead Sea Scrolls, whatever the case might be." Then all of a sudden it's like, Joseph Smith was a prophet, because no one at the time would have known that. But instead, he's just rehashing the KJV. And it goes against not just the translations we have today, but it also goes against the accounts of the witnesses of the process. And so all of these little things combined together to tell you that something is off. And, and that is where, if you're going to make an apologetic response, you have to explain how you get back to a place that can be reconciled by the evidence that doesn't put this as a 19th-century text. And so far, I've not seen anyone do that in a way that doesn't create, like, a privilege, like a special pleading for Joseph Smith, and without kind of using God to fill in those gaps, it just can't be done, because the evidence is too overwhelming.

Yeah. And again, if you want to learn more about Deutero-Isaiah, we talked briefly about Deutero-Isaiah in the anachronisms episode, but we're going to have Deuteronom, it's going to get its own, yeah, it's got its own episode because that's a really important one. And, um, Jesus, yeah, it's, it's like up there with the Book of Abraham, yeah, as like one of the smoking guns of the Book of Mormon. Yeah, it's a big one. And, um, so now we're going to talk some about the New Testament on the Book of Mormon. And I know we've talked about this before in a lot of episodes. So what we want to do here is just kind of, again, restate that any use of the New Testament is anachronistic because the Book of Mormon people would not have had access to this in any way. Um, but it's not so much in this particular episode that the New Testament material is in there, it's that it's bringing in translation errors, um, compiled text, and late editions in the process, kind of like the last era we just showed. Um, so we're going to give a little bit of a teaser to two upcoming episodes because they illustrate this problem really well. We're going to talk about them here.

Yeah, just, we'll do one slide on a couple of them. So first, we're going to do, um, this one is just kind of giving a bit of an intro to it. So here's a, wait, though, we did this one. So actually, we're going to go, the next slide, there we go. So the long ending of Mark is one that we're going to have an episode on. But effectively, the original ending of Mark would end at chapter 16, verse 8. And almost all scholars now concede that verses 9 through 20 in Mark 16 were written up to 200 years after the initial manuscripts, likely attached from a scribe who is trying to give an ending to the book, to the gospel of Mark that'll be more, um, liked by the community because they did not like how abrupt it was. And so that is something again, we're going to have a whole episode on this and go into that more detail. But just understand that a lot of the newer translations, even put notes in there saying verses 9 through 20 are not in the original and earliest manuscripts. And so what I want to read is Mark 15, Mark chapter 16, verses 15 through 18, and then compare it to the Book of Mormon. And so it says, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Now compare that to Mormon chapter 9, verses 20 through 24: "For behold, thus saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe in my name: they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." And so this is just showing that Joseph Smith is pulling from the KJV and not understanding this is a late edition, and so he's pulling it directly into the Book of Mormon. And again, it's an anachronism already, right, because it's New Testament. But this is also showing that he doesn't understand, um, that this is a late edition. And again, we're going to have an episode on this, so we'll go into this in a lot more detail. But it's just to point out that we have the italics.

We mentioned earlier we have the translation errors, and now we're having late editions that are being pulled into the Book of Mormon that should have no place there because they're not authentic to the original text.

Yeah, and without listening to, um, you know, the "Long Ending of Mark" episode, I, I had never heard of that before, and so I struggled to understand it during that episode, which we've already recorded. Um, but yeah, it just, it really does end abruptly in the middle. It's like a reboot. I call it "all delete." You're reading, you're reading that last chapter of Mark, and then all of a sudden, it clearly ends, and then it, like, starts over and then says a bunch more stuff. It's obvious that that made no sense. And so these verses that you're quoting here are in the later part of that chapter that were added later. And then again, unless you go watch that full episode, you might struggle to follow. Yeah, but it is important to mention here in this episode. Yeah, when we get there, it'll make a lot more sense because we go into more detail, but it's just, just to show in this particular point that there are late editions being brought in, in addition to all the other areas we mentioned. And it's just really important because this is not an issue where the King James Bible presents like one problem. It's translation, it's italics, it's late editions. All of these things, Joseph Smith is assuming are close to what the original intent was because he doesn't have a lot of the biblical scholarship we have in 2022. But that also, um, leaves his fingerprints on the text, and it also makes claims that we can now test better, and they're just not coming up as passing those tests as far as the evidence proving them to be incredible and ancient. Yeah.

And it's just hard not to say that those, those verses in Mark, oh, well, the, the, those verses in Mormon weren't, weren't heavily inspired or empty. Yeah, I mean, they're, they're pulling phrases just identical. So to say that, you know, that they don't belong, it's a problem. By the way, this is totally just out of place, but wouldn't it have been amazing if Jesus gives us new teachings and new principles in the Book of Mormon that he didn't give us in the Bible? I know you've probably already said that a bunch of times, but like, it's just really sinking into my brain now. Wouldn't it have been cool if Jesus taught new doctrine to the name and its Lamanites and Nephites that we didn't hear in the Bible? Wouldn't that have been it? Were cool? I mean, that's just it. And that's, uh, that's a good segue into our next one. But for behold, the three degrees of glory are real. Or for behold, someday, you know, Joseph Smith, you know, someday Mormons will be called to practice polygamy. Like, come on, Jesus, Book of Mormon Jesus, she could have given us more.

Well, I think that's just it. And like, you know, again, you know, if we go, we'll go to the next slide because the Sermon on the Mount, to me, is the biggest illustration of what you just said, which is we're going to have a separate episode on this as well. So this is kind of just a really short, kind of tease for that. But when the writer of the Book of Mormon, or actually, I'll back up a second. So the Sermon on the Mount is obviously a famous sermon in Matthew. And in the Book of Mormon, they have the Sermon at the Temple, which is effectively rehashing the Sermon on the Mount. And so the problem is, it relies on the reader of the Book of Mormon accepting the fact that Jesus is going to give the exact same sermon in America that he would have given in, you know, in the Old World. And the problem is that by doing so, it's going to have a lot of things that don't make sense to people in America. Just as if you're a presidential candidate and you're giving a stump speech in Seattle, Washington, you're going to want to give a different one if you want to say, like, you know, Georgia, because they have different, different needs of these states. And in the Book of Mormon, you can see where Joseph Smith, just like mentioned with the italics, he's very concerned with certain phrases that he knows won't make any sense to the people in America. But because he doesn't know that some of the other ones are what exactly they are, he leaves them in. But then when now, through the hindsight of having more scholarship, we can show that those phrases would have no meaning either. And so then you'd have to believe that Jesus is going and telling people stuff they would just have absolutely no meaning to them and in fact be confusing because they're like, what in the world are you talking about? And these are the ways you can tell that Joseph Smith is starting with the King James Bible and then just making some superficial changes to fit the Book of Mormon's narrative as it goes. And by doing so, in the Sermon on the Mount, the best example of that is when you get to, um, this is good. Yeah.

So in Matthew 5:26, there's a phrase that says, "Thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." And so Joseph Smith knows that farthing is English currency and would have absolutely no meaning in the Americas. So Joseph Smith, in Nephi 12:26, is going to change that to, "Until thou has paid the most, the uttermost c9." And that is, um, the Nephite coinage that is mentioned in Alma, which is just two books earlier, and then never mentioned again after this one passing mention. It's almost like Joseph Smith knew he needed to set up currency for this exact moment. I mean, that's my kind of personal thought on that is he sets it up two books ahead so that he's ready for this because he knows that that means nothing. Um, but the problem gets deeper because the Sermon on the Mount is going away. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Using the word c9 again confirms the tight translation narrative that Joseph can come up with words that aren't understood in in modern parlance. And of course, that makes all the apologetic attempts to, um, to do the loan shifting that we talked about in last episode to explain all the anachronistic words. It just, I just have to reiterate that invalidates all of those attempts to loan shift and to redefine words because we know Joseph can call any person or any object whatever name it actually was because of the tight translation reading from the stone in that. Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, because he works in this entire monetary system, which is basically used once and then thrown away. Which is another area that tells you when they talk about complexity and they'll say, "Oh, he's got a currency system." It's like, he's got a currency system that's mentioned like twice and then gone. And that tells you he brought it up to get through a specific problem, which I believe is, it might be this case, to get through the Sermon on the Mount, and then it's gone. And then so he mentions that. But then on the other hand, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus refers to the Roman law of going a mile. In Matthew 5:41, it says, "And whoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." And this ends up in, in Third Nephi 12:41. And the problem is, this is a Roman law. So by the time Jesus is telling this to the people in the Americas, they would be like, "What are you talking about? I have no idea what that means." Meaning the word mile. Yeah.

I think it's something like with, I don't know if it's slavery or something, but if you, um, you have to wait away because mile is a British unit of measurement of distance, right? Wouldn't Nephites wouldn't have used the word mile? So why, why couldn't he set dollar for, you know, when he said c9 or quarter, he's going to use the Nephite word for currency, but then he's going to use a British word for distance in Britain. They use, and Britain is kilometers, right? So I, I don't even know actually. I don't know. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 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And I think just through our first, you know, nine episodes, whatever, we've illustrated how they, they pile onto each other and not in isolation. I think that's the really important thing is just showing the common threads and, um, and why they fit together naturally with the evidence in, in, in a way that is, like I said earlier, it's satisfying because it's really cool when you can kind of solve these little mysteries and then all of a sudden when they start kind of naturally fitting together, it's, it's a really cool thing, even if it forces you to change your overall paradigm.

And honestly, it was the Mormon Church that taught me the truth matters. It was the Mormon Church that taught me that honesty matters. And I want to live in reality. And I want to base my decisions, how I live, how I raise my kids, how I, you know, whatever time I have on this earth, I want to spend it rooted in reality. You know, and if, you know, if there wasn't a Nephi, if there wasn't a Laman, if, if Jesus didn't come to the Americas, if Native Americans are Native Americans and they're not Nephites and Lamanites, yeah, I want to know that. Yeah, I don't want to go to a Guatemalan in Mormon and say, "Hey, Lamanite." That's insulting. You know, we want to live in reality. We do.

And, you know, the thing is, um, it's really, it, this happened for me and it still happens to a certain degree as I go through this stuff, but it's really scary to question your beliefs. And it's really scary to get to a point where you're like, "If this isn't true, do I want to know?" Um, and to your point, you do get to a point where you need to know. And you, because if you don't know, then, or if you know there's problems but you won't look into them, then you're going to live the rest of your life kind of in the back of your head going, "Am I doing this for, for the right reasons? Am I doing it because it's true? Because I need it to be here? Because I want it to be?" And, and so doing these episodes, I think will hopefully help some people who maybe are early in that process and just trying to figure it out and, and maybe help them to kind of more of a gentle landing, a better understanding, so that it's not quite as emotional, um, as some of the things you'll come across online are. That'll be a little more gentle, a little bit more, um, you know, consumable so that it helps you to get to that point of understanding or at least getting some answers to some questions you might have in a way that you maybe you could share with others and it won't be so, um, like feeling like you're being ambushed or feeling you're being attacked.

And, um, and I just hope as we keep going that that'll be kind of the spirit of it where it's, it's about, you know, if you want to know this stuff, here we're here for you. And if you don't, we'll be here when you are. You know, if you want to watch this in a year because you're not ready for it, that's okay. Just know that this material is here when you're ready for it.

All right, Mike, you're a treasure and we can't thank you enough for taking time out of your busy schedule to take us through this series. And we've got 20 or 30, yeah, we got a lot more to go. 30 more episodes to go, which is going to be amazing. It will. Thanks everybody for checking it out and talk to you soon. Take care. Thanks so much. Bye everybody.

And again, everybody, um, the essay that we were referring to today is at ldsdiscussions.com kjv. We have other show notes in the show notes within a week of this being released, hopefully you'll be able to find links to the other episodes like the tight versus loose translation episode, the Book of Mormon anachronisms episode, and the long ending of Mark episode. Um, and eventually the Deutero-Isaiah episode. Um, uh, you know, we'll, we'll have links to all of those. We'll also have time codes so that you can jump back and forth, um, to different parts of the, um, of this presentation as you so desire. You can also always slow it down if we're going too fast at 0.7 speed or speed it up to two times speed if we're going too slow. Um, we just want to make these episodes usable for everybody.

We love your feedback. Please give us feedback at mormonstoriesgmail.com. We also love your comments on YouTube, um, in the chat or in the comments section, or on Facebook, or you can, uh, leave comments on the blog. We're grateful for that. Please share this information. If you disagree, if you think we've got it wrong, if you think we've interpreted the history wrong, if you think our context is wrong, we invite you to let us know either through email or through the comments, wherever you want to make comments. We want your feedback. If, if you can demonstrate that Mike and I got something wrong, we'll freaking bring you on Mormon Stories podcast and let you make your case if you have a credible case.

And then finally, we just want to remind you all that if you really value the stuff, if you like it, so many people have told us they love these episodes, but we need you to know that we're losing donors every month. We're gaining donors and losing donors every month, but we need to replace the donors that we lose. And, and when we lose donors, it's not because we've done anything wrong. Oftentimes, it's literally just because somebody loses their job or falls on financial hard times, or they lose interest, or they've been studying this for 20 years and they're ready to move on. You know, sometimes their spouse finds out that they are supporting us and they get in trouble and they have to cancel their donation. So for whatever the reason is, we need you to step up and replace the donations or to just most importantly, tap into your, your, uh, conscience, step into your soul. If you have, uh, a way to support us and if you value this work, we would love you to demonstrate that and to support the work not only for current generations but for future generations.

So to support us financially, click on, uh, click on the links in the description. Go to mormonstories.org. Click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. Set it and forget it. Whatever amount works for you. $10 a month, $20 a month, $50 a month, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. These episodes are tax deductible in the United States. Um, we're transparent in our finances. We publish our 990s every year when the IRS completes them and lets us know they're available. And every dollar you spend is going to go to me, Gerardo, Jen, Jennifer, Brooklyn, the equipment, the lighting, the broadband, the studio, marketing, uh, there are all sorts of expenses, equipment, lighting, cameras, uh, lenses. So much goes into making all this possible. Uh, we really want your support. And honestly, there's more we could do if we had more support. So please support us if you can.

Thanks so much for all those who do support us. Thanks for your support of this series. Uh, we really love and appreciate you guys. Most importantly, be kind to each other. Love each other. Don't tear people down. Find ways to build people up. But truth matters. Um, and, uh, keep pursuing truth, everybody. Love you. Thank you. Uh, and we'll see you guys all again very soon on another episode.