Transcription
If you're someone who's having trouble with sleep, chances are you have seen the proliferation of sleep aids appearing on drugstore shelves and grocery store shelves everywhere. And if you take the time to look at the ingredients, you will notice that the vast majority of them probably include melatonin. However, there is more to know about melatonin than just the fact that it could potentially help with sleep. And so today, I am so delighted to be talking with my good friend and colleague Dr. Deanna Minck, who is just going to break it all down for us and help us learn what we need to know about melatonin. Deanna, thank you so much for being here.
Oh, it's great to be here talking with, uh, you about one of my favorite topics, melatonin. And you're right, I mean, so much confusion, so much in the media and the press about melatonin. So, um, I'm, it's, it's a delight to have this conversation with you.
And so, you know, I love to ask you, why is it that right now we are seeing this explosion of stuff about melatonin? Like, do you have any theories about that?
Well, if I look at the scientific publications, what you can see on PubMed is that year by year, it seemed that there was just this exponential rise in publications. And then when we went through the pandemic, there were even more publications on melatonin. And that is actually what turned me on to melatonin is because I would be reading about the immune system, and within the publication, I would see mention of vitamin C, zinc, quercetin, and melatonin. And then I was thinking, why is melatonin being discussed with all of these different antioxidant vitamins and zinc? And as I started to get into the melatonin science, and then later came to work with a company that has a plant melatonin, I realized that melatonin is doing a lot more than what we think. So again, my visibility into melatonin was not for sleep. It was actually through immune health and through the pandemic.
And, you know, I find it interesting because if people know about melatonin at all, all they know is that it's for sleep. And then there's a very confusing slew of products, different amounts, different formulations. And so I'm, I'm curious to know how else melatonin can support us in terms of what it does for the immune system. Can we touch on that a minute?
Oh, goodness, yeah. I mean, first, let's define what is melatonin. Um, you know, if we just break apart the word, melatonin, "mela" refers to, you know, when it was initially discovered by a dermatologist, it was found in the skin and it was thought to lead to skin whitening. So the "mela" refers to the, the melanin or the connection to skin, which we now know that melatonin is in skin, but it doesn't do the skin whitening or lightening or, you know, it has other functions in the skin. The "tonin" refers to the connection, the biochemical connection to serotonin. So the way that we make melatonin is, it actually comes from tryptophan, which is an essential amino acid. So we need to take in protein. That tryptophan goes to serotonin, which then gets converted to melatonin. So I just wanted to give the listeners a little bit of background, like, what are we dealing with as a chemical compound or molecule?
Melatonin is throughout our bodies. You were asking specifically about the immune system. We see it in relationship to different immune cells, but quite honestly, it's found throughout the body. It's in the brain, it's in the blood, it's in different organ systems. It's in the eye. It's, as I mentioned, it's in the skin. It's in the liver, the kidney, the thyroid. It's in a lot of different fluids, like amniotic fluid, breast milk. This is how children start to get increased levels of melatonin is if they are nursed by their mother. It's in the cerebrospinal fluid, it's in the saliva, it's in the urine. So there are easy ways to measure melatonin.
Genetically, for some of your more savvy listeners who know about genetics, genomics, epigenetics, what we know is that there are receptors for melatonin on the cells. And so somebody can have a gene variability in how they respond to melatonin. And I want us to remember that fact as we start to talk about some of the side effects, uh, people taking too much melatonin, which I think is more of the problem than not enough. Um, I, I think, um, people think that taking more is better. They hear all these things about melatonin helping with sleep. And I think, Mira, just to go back to looking at the pandemic and how that set the stage for greater sleep disturbances, greater issues with mental health, issues overall with mood, and, you know, just people thinking about their health. I think that people have started to look to melatonin. And what is probably lesser known is these immune effects. Now, there is more coming out about the immune effects, and that's thanks to people like Doris Loh, Russell Ryder, some researchers out there who are talking about melatonin in relationship to things like viral replication.
I was on Dr. Pearl Mutter's podcast last year, and we were talking about the brain, the glymphatic fluid, you know, just even brain detoxification at night. Because the time that we make the most melatonin in our bodies, it, first of all, it's made from the pineal gland, which is in the brain. It is in response to darkness, which comes from the eyes. The eyes give that signal of darkness to a certain part of the brain, which then leads to the pineal gland. That conversion from tryptophan, serotonin, melatonin takes place. Then that melatonin goes systemically, goes throughout the body, and it keys into clock genes. It gets the circadian rhythm going. So in essence, to me, melatonin is about sleep, but it's much more about circadian rhythm. It's getting our bodies into alignment with the day-night cycle. It's not the only hormone that's doing it, but it's one of the primary hormones. So I think by way of that, people think about sleep because they think, oh, melatonin's produced at night, it's helping with sleep. Yes, it is. But think about our immune system and rejuvenation at night, and how important it is that we sleep.
I think, you know, sleep has become, uh, I would call it the new medicine, or the more top-of-mind way of healing for people. And what more and more people are paying attention to. And, you know, that's so true because I think there are a lot of people who are finally beginning to tap into the fact that all these public figures who go, "Oh yeah, I get along on four hours of sleep." You know, like, I, I think Martha Stewart's one of those. She claims to only sleep four hours a night. I'm like, how do you function? You know? And, and so people think it's like a badge of courage to be sleep-deprived, which is really bad for you. And then in addition to that, we wind up having these downstream impacts of sleep deprivation. And so, can we talk a little bit about what are some of the things that might cause an imbalance in your melatonin levels, and how that might impact sleep?
Yes. First of all, uh, we need to be looking at just the overall health of our, of our endocrine system, our pineal gland, and how that's connected into other hormones. The pineal gland is very much connected to the adrenal glands and cortisol, to the pituitary gland, which signals multiple glands. So I think just systemically, we have to look at our overall health. I mean, hormones, to me, you know, when we hear, Mira, I know that so many of us have heard that, "All health starts in the gut." You know, we hear that. But I would say that all health starts with hormones. Because not many of our hormones are actually in the gut, but hormones are throughout our body. They're in the skin, they're through this neuroendocrine axis. And hormones change our behavior, and that's powerful. You know, we could say that the gut microbiome changes our behavior as well.
So I, I think, you know, what offsets melatonin? Well, first and foremost, we have to look at, as I mentioned, our health status. The second thing we need to look at is our age. So one of the things that happens, very similar to the other hormones, is that we have this kind of roller coaster decline that happens with melatonin, much like estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, cortisol can also tank. So as we, if you look at the life curve of melatonin, children start to produce melatonin, I would say, you know, around that one-year mark of life, depending on whether or not they've been nursed with a, with breast milk that contains melatonin. Because keep in mind that infant formulas do not contain melatonin. So the child ramps up their melatonin, and then eventually, as a child, you know, early childhood, we see some of the highest levels of melatonin that we'll ever see in our lives. And then with puberty, we start to come down. And that slowly starts to come down, down, down, down, down until I would say probably in our mid-50s, we really start to bottom out in our pineal gland synthesis of melatonin.
Now, melatonin is made throughout the body, and it's also made in the gut, not in response to darkness. So there are different kinds. We have the same molecule of melatonin, but it's produced in the body differentially. So what we're talking about here is pineal melatonin. So with advanced age, it comes down. In fact, I was on another podcast and, uh, Dr. Dickinweatherbe said, "That sounds like melatonina pause." You know, we hear about andropause, adrenal, perimenopause, you know, all of the pauses, right? Well, melatonin has a pause. Wow. You have to think about that. And then the rise of a lot of different chronic diseases.
The other thing, Mira, that is also connected to melatonin status is stress. And here's why. I want to go back to something I just said about tryptophan. Tryptophan is a very important amino acid, but its connection to get to melatonin, there are a lot of different pathways, a lot of different enzymes, a lot of different nutrients that are required. But tryptophan is not only needed for melatonin in the body, it's needed for neurotransmitter synthesis, it's needed for energy production. And so when we are stressed, we actually shunt more of that tryptophan over to the energy pathway than the melatonin pathway. So stress kind of hijacks that melatonin synthesis. So that's, that's unfortunate.
And I would say too, you know, if we are working at night on an artificial blue-lit screen, or we're on our devices, we're on our smartphones, we're in bed, that toxic artificial blue light that we get generated from all of these devices is impairing our body's ability to make melatonin. So there are things that we can actually control. Like sometimes with stress, we can't always control aspects of stress, but with things like our exposure to artificial light at night, which is an endocrine disruptor, if we can help to mitigate or reduce some of that, we can help to buffer against some of the decline of melatonin, melatonin produced by the pineal gland.
So, and that's, and that's fascinating because there, there, you know, there are so many things that impact it. And I love that you mentioned the blue light because I think a lot of people tend to disregard that. And yet, just as a personal aside, I know when we go camping, everybody goes to bed early. We're tired. There's no light, you know, there's like camp light and that's it, and stars. That's true. That's true. You know, we're in sync with nature. So, and I think we, you know, there's an element of personalization in this as well. You know, we have to think about the seasons and how that changes our exposure to light. Um, I think you have more brown eyes, right? So I have hazel eyes. For hazel, okay. So the darker the iris, it's almost like, um, you're, you're a little bit more protected from that artificial light at night, not by much, but you're more protected than somebody like me with very light eyes. So light green, light blue, light brown, these colors will change the sensitivity to light. So that has been shown in a fascinating, I didn't, I didn't realize that iris color had an impact as well. That was one study that showed, um, about a 17% suppression of melatonin synthesis in those light-colored eyes. So that's, okay, we, we, it's good to understand so that we can course-correct.
So one of the things that people with light-colored eyes can do, and even dark-colored eyes like yours, hazel, dark brown, is to wear the blue light blocking glasses if you're going to be on technology at night. Ideally, it's, it's better not, like you said, let's be in nature, let's kind of sync with the seasons with the rhythms and go to bed when nature is going to bed and showing us that way. But that's not always practical. And quite honestly, we don't want to stress people. And for people, I would say, like that are doing shift work, where they have flip-flopped, right? They may need to tend to their cycles a little bit differently. So blue light blocking glasses are one of the, the hacks, if you will, that people can start to bring in. You can also be looking at taking supplemental melatonin in small amounts, in repletion amounts, not in high, double-digit amounts.
You know, you were asking me before we jumped on about this whole thing with melatonin gummies. And I, I think what happened with the pandemic was kids were at home, they were on technology, they were on Zoom school, and, you know, things were a little bit disturbed in terms of the routine. And I think that, um, you know, there were sleeping issues. And I think that melatonin came out, you know, there was a big spike in terms of use of melatonin. But then I was also seeing a lot of press releases and, uh, things coming out in the science about children overdosing on melatonin. And I think we need to think about the format that melatonin is in because if it's in a gummy format, which seems like candy, or seems like you would take more than one, um, and, and keep in mind again, children have the highest levels of endogenous melatonin made by the pineal gland, unless they have issues like perhaps ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, there is some science to suggest that these children may have some disturbances in melatonin, sure. But outside of that, if we're just talking about, you know, kids in general, you know, having more of that melatonin at night in the form of gummies, you know, and I think about the sugar. You're so good about food labels and having people, it's not just the food label, it's the supplement label. Read that supplement label too. Look at all the sugar in those gummies, and then think about the potential for excitability or hyperactivity with having that sugar right before, plus all the, all the stickiness on your teeth, even if you brush them, what the bacteria does, and it gets down to the gut. Like, it's just not a good thing.
But I love, I love that you mentioned supplementation because I'd really like to talk about that for a second. I, I sometimes get questions from clients, you know, wanting to know, which one's the best? And it, I say, read the label, obviously. But you go to the store and so I recently went to the drugstore to look and see what was there and I saw everything from 1 milligram up to 10, 10 milligrams, all openly available on the, on the drugstore shelf. Yeah, that's kind of astonishing.
Yeah. So first of all, how do people choose the right one for them? And the other thing is, is there a difference between synthetics, or is there a better option?
Oh, now we're getting into the, uh, the trenches of, like, you know, again, how people can affect change and how can they make good choices. So, as I did mention, I am working with a company called Symphony Natural Health, and they make a plant melatonin, which is made from rice, alfalfa, and chlorella, and it's called Herbatonin. So I know a bit about the different kinds of melatonin because I've had to research plant melatonin, synthetic melatonin. Is there a difference?
There was actually a head-to-head study that was published in a journal in 2021. This was not my research, this is, uh, research from a different group. But essentially, they, they looked at a variety of things. They took a synthetic melatonin, they took the plant melatonin, which again, is Herbatonin, and then they compared the two side by side, which contained the exact amount of melatonin. But keep in mind that the plant melatonin contains some other things. It's kind of like a concentrate. So it's just the melatonin, but it, they still contain the same amount of melatonin. But the plant melatonin, the Herbatonin, had 46% greater anti-inflammatory activity. Yes. It had up to 170% greater ability to free radical scavenge. So like scoop up a lot of these damaging free radicals, which is what melatonin is really good at. It's fat-soluble, it's water-soluble, but it really does scoop up a lot of these free radicals. The, the Herbatonin was actually much better at that than the synthetic melatonin. And I have a hunch it has to do with some of the other things, other plant compounds that are within that Herbatonin that made it much more effective.
There was also a, a skin cell line. We know again that that melatonin is in skin. So there was a, um, also a cell study in skin, and they found these researchers found a, a better scavenging of free radicals in the skin cell model by 100%. Wow. 100%. Yes. Those oxygen species, right? And people can find this if you want to put this in the show notes. That article is open access. Um, it was published in the Molecules journal in 2021, so fairly recent.
Now, the other thing people have to be concerned about with synthetic melatonin is if you look at some of, and I've had to do this, I, I wanted to understand how is melatonin synthesized. Well, if you look at some of the patents, there's usually some kind of precursor. And that precursor could be something that is petroleum-based. It could also, you know, some companies might say, "Oh, well, we're plant-based," but the starter compound is what, what is plant-derived, and it could be corn or soy. And from there, then it goes through a number of chemical reactions. You know, back in the day, back in the 1950s and '60s, and, you know, I would say up until probably the '90s, the supplemental form of melatonin was animal pineal gland-derived melatonin, which wasn't practical. It wasn't, because the amount of melatonin that is produced by the pineal is so small. And to have these large animals, and then to have just that, and then to have the threat of things like prions and viruses and all of the unknown. So that's why there was a pivot. I wanted to explain to everybody now, why did melatonin go to being synthetically produced? Well, well, it was cheaper, you could do it faster, and the yield could get more. Also get more. And then you're not killing all of these animals to do that. So in some ways, it would seem like a good thing to do. But if you look at the actual process, which I think we always need to do, we need to look at root causes, we need to look at root processes. You're really good at that with your engineering background.
Well, there was one paper, and that was published in 2018, again, this is not my work, this is somebody else. But they identified up to 13 different contaminants in synthetically produced melatonin. So these are things like gomide compounds and metabolites, you know, all kinds of things that we don't want to have to think about, right? I mean, the quality of the supplement is just as important as making sure that it's efficacious. And oftentimes, those two things go hand in hand. So what I would say is, um, you know, and that's why I stand behind the Herbatonin, because it is from plants, it has been tested for chemicals and heavy metals and all of the, the things that we would want to check boxes on, and it actually has an amplified, potentiated activity relative to the synthetically produced melatonin.
And so, so I'm, I'm curious then, does, does the plant-based also come in different strengths? And how does someone figure out how much they personally need? Because there's also a lot of articles out there that go, "Oh, if you take melatonin, your body stops making it, and then you just need more, more." So I would love to talk about that.
So let's talk about that. So what you're asking about is essentially dose and personalization. How did one person determine the dose over another?
So I, I think if we look back into, again, somebody's stressed, they're getting older, they might have some health issues that might involve the immune system, the brain, the gut. I mean, quite honestly, because melatonin touches so many parts of us, we could justify saying, "Well, goodness, you know, so many different body systems would require melatonin." In fact, I was just reading an article this morning on premature ovarian decline, the gut microbiome, and melatonin was mentioned by way of helping to facilitate this axis. So what, what I would say is, let's look at what does the pineal gland make? Like, let's just look at biologically, what does a fit, healthy, optimal level look like? And that those numbers have actually been worked out. So for an average adult with, you know, just average amounts of pineal-derived melatonin, we're looking at 0.3 milligrams. 0.3 milligrams. Now, there might be plus or minus there depending on the individual. But essentially, through the life cycle, you know, as a child, we're producing close to 1 milligram. And then as we get older, as a functioning adult, adult, we're at about 0.3 milligrams. And then as we move into our 50s, we're at about 0.1 milligrams.
So what I would say is, start low and go slow. You know, just go back into repletion. You know, so having that 0.3 milligrams, in my opinion, is a really good starting place because it is a nice low dose. There are so many people recommending that dose as well, you know, even biohackers. You know, there is one biohacker I know specifically who talked about, like, it's, he considers it like a microdose. It's like, more is not always better, right? So like having that low dose and then from there, staging it accordingly. So I think that that's a good maintenance dose for most people. So I just turned 53. I take 0.3 milligrams of the Herbatonin. That to me feels like a good maintenance. But when I was in Peru and when I'm traveling, I go up in my melatonin. So I, I aim for a 3 milligram. So the science on jet lag is, you know, there, there are some doses between like three to six milligrams. And the way there are, you know, very certain protocols of how you take melatonin in higher amounts when you travel. And it's just a cute, right? You take it like three days before you travel to a different time zone. You know, usually, if you're traveling like three time zones, that's where you need to start thinking about, okay, how do I adjust my sleep, my circadian rhythm? So that three to six milligram is the dose range that is usually advocated. And it's not often discussed before you travel. But I like to think about before I travel, then when I actually land in the location, I take the Herbatonin at the time that I would be going to bed in that location. And I do that for three days. That's kind of the sleep protocol for using supplemental melatonin with travel. So again, the maintenance dose, you know, 0.3 milligram, just to start from something low, go slow. And then if you need to intervene because of travel, then I think using the three milligram dose is, is the proper way to do it.
Yeah. So then it's, it's sounds absolutely horrifying to see 10 milligrams on the drugstore shelf.
Yes. What children to be taking 10 milligrams is absolutely horrifying. I mean, I think, you know, again, there's no reason for kids to be taking that amount.
Now, people can test their melatonin levels. So let's just talk about that for a second. Um, and I actually had mine tested to see.
I was just going to say, so I would love to talk about people testing their melatonin levels. I would also love to talk about what, if any, are the symptoms and problems, challenges that arise from taking too much?
Yes. Okay. Yes. Let's, uh, well, first of all, what would denote too much? People could have symptoms like, um, their sleep might actually be disrupted. Um, they may not, um, you know, I, I think it has a relatively high safety profile, quite honestly. There can be some contraindications with medications or even caffeine. There can be some immune stimulation effects. So you'll see sometimes on the label of certain melatonin products, they'll say something about exhibiting caution if you have an autoimmune disease because there can be some immune stimulation. Um, I think also, you know, just in terms of pregnant or nursing moms, we have to think about their use because that could be coming out into breast milk. Um, but in general, I'm just going to say, even though I'm, I'm not advocating for higher levels of melatonin supplementally, I, I think that in general, melatonin has a high safety profile.
Now, I want to go back to your question, does taking that melatonin stop endogenous production? I actually had that. I was on all of these podcasts talking about melatonin, and I would get that question repeatedly. So I thought, you know what, I need to actually look into this. And I went into some of the science that actually tested that question. So they prospectively asked, "Okay, if I give people, adults, this level, and I'm changing their melatonin synthesis when they go off?" And in these studies, and I identified about four or five of them, they did not find any change to endogenous levels. Now, if somebody's taking a really high level, I had a few people say to me, and these people, it's quite interesting because they were taking high levels, I'm talking double-digit levels, 10 milligrams and higher. And in some cases, they might take 50 milligrams. I know somebody who takes 80 milligrams. I knew somebody who takes, takes 100 milligrams. And I, I remember somebody, a few people have said this to me, that they said, "Deanna, I think that the melatonin stopped working for me." And I would say, "Well, what, how much are you taking?" And it would be a double-digit number. And I said, "Well, you know, because melatonin binds to cell receptors, what can happen when you take high levels is that you bind to those receptors and you super-saturate them. So then you stop seeing the signal of melatonin." Okay, right. So there, there can be that implication if we're taking too much. Um, so yeah, I, I think that that's worthwhile to note that there can be these contraindications.
I think also, I just toss this into the mix that, um, there was a very interesting study, and it was done in a sleep lab. So there was no influence of light. And what was found was that melatonin levels were also low during a full moon. But that was the only time of the month that it was low. And then I think about when people are having sleep disturbances, many times it's coinciding with the full moon. And I had never thought before about it being connected to melatonin. Yeah. And then I thought, well, is it because there is brighter light? But in this study, again, being that it was a sleep lab, there was no influence of the light. So naturally, we may have issues. But just again, to answer your question, what are the implications of high dose melatonin? Well, there may be some shifts in the immune system that may or may not be beneficial for the individual. I think you can stop the activity of it by super-saturating the receptors. Um, so, and we also have to think, if you're taking high doses, what kind of melatonin is it? Is it a synthetic melatonin? Are you getting other contaminants that are also in greater amounts? So those are just some of questions and things that I would be thinking about.
All very good to know. Now, you had touched on, and we were about to dive into it when I interrupted you, about testing melatonin. That's right.
Yeah. So, um, I wanted to know, you know, I, I try to be proactive. I, I think testing can be good. You just have to know the implications of what you're testing and how do you translate that finding?
The way that melatonin is measured is in urine. Okay. What I did personally, I'll just tell your listeners, I did a Dutch test. I did this mapping where I did everything. I looked at the interrelationship of all of my hormones. And I looked, um, if you look at, uh, the, the report, what you see is that, and this is for most other labs as well, they do a urinary melatonin metabolite level. So what that tells you is your metabolism of melatonin metabolism. It doesn't tell you what the pineal gland is is making per se, because you'd have to wake up at 2:00 in the morning, not be exposed to any light, you know, to to get that level. This is not what is, yeah, right. So we're just looking to see what the body is actually metabolizing, it's using, right? And I want people to have that distinction because throughout the day, your body's not producing the melatonin. It's only at night. And the peak at night is between 2:00 and 4:00 AM. Mira, do you know how, I mean, so many people wake up at that time? To me, that's telling me that something actually could be awry with melatonin. Um, melatonin is not the only thing peaking. We also see glutathione, some of the different, um, like superoxide dismutases, some of the other antioxidant enzymes. If we look at traditional Chinese medicine, where they have organ breakout times, you know, one to three is liver time. Me, I started thinking, okay, if somebody is waking up between 2:00 and 3:00, and this is a very common time that people wake up, menopausal or whatever, it's just a common time. I, I've seen that many people have shared that with me, um, that might actually be a detoxification issue. And maybe, you know, the melatonin is trying to help in that process because again, that is when things are peaking in the body. We want to stay asleep during that time. We do that to override our rejuvenation time at night. So in terms of measuring it, it's, it's somewhat, I, I would say it's imperfect in telling us what the pineal gland is doing, but it is a closer gauge of how our body metabolizes melatonin. And I wanted to see, you know, mine was in the normal range, which I thought, okay, this is good because then I'm probably tracking on a dose that's good for me for maintenance right now.
Now, one of the, the other things, as you know, um, the, the enzyme that metabolizes melatonin is the same one that metabolizes caffeine. So that's called cytochrome 1A2. It's also metabolized by some of the other cytochromes, but the primary one is 1A2. So if people start to do coffee closer into bedtime, you know, caffeine has, you know, the, the half-life of caffeine, we, we really have to think about how long it's in our system. There, why some people say like they stop all caffeine at 12:00 noon, no more, because otherwise you could be having levels into the night, you know, even small amounts. And if you're sensitive, and some people have a gene variant in this particular enzyme, which I do. I, I'm a fast metabolizer. Uh, some people are slow metabolizers. So my, you know, I know some people who are a slow metabolizer of caffeine, which means they will be a slow metabolizer of melatonin. And if they take them together, those two are going to compete as substrates for that enzyme.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just a couple of best practices. Like I'll just give you an example. My husband is a slow metabolizer. So with him, we had to fine-tune his Herbatonin to take three hours before bedtime because he's slower, he's slower to actually metabolize melatonin. For me, I do it in the traditional recommendation of 40 to 60 minutes before bedtime. Like last night, I think I took it about 45 minutes before I went to bed. I kind of have my nightly ritual. So yeah, I kind of do everything at the same time. So I took that at about 45 minutes before bedtime, and that works for me. But for other people, they describe what is called a paradoxical effect, where they might actually get more excited, or they're not able to sleep as well, or they get groggy because they've taken melatonin. Or, you know, some people, I don't know if it's due to the melatonin or the supplement itself, but some people talk about getting headaches from taking melatonin. So I think it's about finding the sweet spot of the dose, the product, the time, even the time of year, the month. We may have to tweak a bit around the full moon if normally we don't sleep quite well at around the full moon. I've started to experiment a little bit too with higher doses around like four days before the full moon and four days after.
That's interesting. That's actually in studies. They showed that it was four days before and four days after that full moon, kind of that curve where you started to see some issues with melatonin levels in the body. Wow.
Well, this is all so fascinating, and you have really given us so much to think about because, you know, I love that you talk about the fact that it's bio-individual, and people really need to think about themselves, their biology, their environment. And then if there are changes to what they're doing, I know you have an amazing metabolism guide for people. Can you share a little bit about that and how we can find it?
Sure. So I put together kind of this thumbnail of all things melatonin into this, this guide. So I, I know people are probably listening feeling like, "Oh my gosh, this is too much information. How do I just distill it down?" So I think this guide will help people to understand how to bring it all together.
That sounds great. Well, I will get the link from you. We'll put that down below so that everybody can get that information, get that guide, and and figure out their personal body interaction with melatonin, how much they need, and when to take it. Deanna, it has been fabulous to talk with you. Thank you so much for being here. And for everybody who's listening, I will put the link down below. I will put some great keynotes down below as well. Please make sure to check all of that out. And I, I just really want to thank you for being here.
Thank you. Thank you for the invite. I'm so glad that it could happen. And I just want to leave everybody with one last note. Um, you know, definitely check with your healthcare practitioner. You know, I think what, what we provide in here is more of the educational aspects, the guidelines, but nobody knows you like you, and nobody knows you like the practitioners that you work with. So just be sure that melatonin, if you choose to take Herbatonin, you know, also Symphony Natural Health has the medical team where people can call in, even if you're a practitioner, to talk about cases. So just know that there's support there for you.
That sounds great. So I will get that information from you as well and put that down below.
Perfect. All right. Thanks again for listening, folks. As always, remember, in all we do, the goal is to make today a healthy day, right?