US News Live: ‘Epstein helped Rothschild, Rockefeller make millions’: Darren Indyke drops BOMBSHELL

Thank you, Mr. Indict. My name is Jack Emmer and I am the chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comr. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reforms rules, you are allowed to have a council present to advise you during this deposition. Do you have a council representing you in a personal capacity present with you today?

>> I do.

>> Will council please identify themselves for the record?

Mark Weinstein from Hughes Hubard and Reed.

>> Danielle Winer also from Hughes Hubard and Reed.

>> Thank you. Now starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation?

>> Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comr.

>> Peter Spectre, deputy director of oversight for Chairman Comr.

>> Daniel Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comr.

>> Ryan Jaceti, chief counsel for Chairman Comr.

Will harness professional chairman council for chairman senior counsel for chairman Emily council for congressional staff for chairman

>> Jack Furla council for chairman comr director for chairman comr

>> thank you all Mr. Inde. Before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this deposition. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for an hour and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for an hour if they choose. To the extent members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their sides respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with council. your council is speaking and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing sides rounds of questions, we will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand?

>> Thank you.

>> There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the deposition. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer. and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this deposition, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record non-verbal answers such as nodding or shaking your head. So, it is important that you answer each question with an audible verbal answer. Do you understand?

>> I do.

>> Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority exhibits exhibits will be identified alphabetically. Do you understand?

>> I do.

>> We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible. So, we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall. Do you understand?

>> I understand. You are you are required by law to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this def deposition. Do you understand?

>> I do.

>> If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution, including but not limited to perjury. Do you understand?

do.

>> This includes both knowingly providing false testimony, but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when in fact you do. Do you understand?

>> Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand?

>> I do.

>> Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview?

>> No.

>> Please note, if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, committee rule 16C1 states, "For the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance for the purpose purposes of this deposition. Objections must be stated concisely in a in a non-argumentative and non-suggestive manner. If the witness refuses to answer a question to reserve a privilege, the committee may seek a ruling from the chair. If the chair overrules any such objection, the witness shall be ordered to answer. If the witness continues to refuse to answer a question despite being ordered to do so, the witness may be subject to sanction. Do you understand?

>> I do.

>> Ordinarily, we take a five minute break at the end of each hour of questioning. But if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know and we will be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand?

>> I do.

>> Finally, I will note for everyone here today that the contents of what we discuss in the deposition today is confidential under the house deposition regulation. Under the rules, the chairman and ranking minority members shall consult before any release of testimony or transcripts, including portions thereof. This means it is a violation of House and committee rules to disclose the content of the deposition prior to its official release. For this reason, the marked exhibits that we will use today will remain with the court reporter so that they can go into the official transcript and any copies of those exhibits will be kept at the table or returned to us when we finish. Can the reporter please swear in the witness?

>> Here's your right hand. Do you solemnly declare or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you give today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

>> I do.

Do you have any questions before we we begin?

>> I do not.

>> We understand that you have an opening statement that you would like to read into the record.

>> I do if I may.

>> You may.

>> Thank you. Good morning everyone.

>> I'd like to thank the committee for working with the Epstein estate over the past six plus months. As a co-executive of the estate, I have done my very best to cooperate with the committee and to respond to the committee's request for documents, photographs, and other information relating to Jeffrey Epstein. As you know, the estate produced voluminous materials in response to the committee subpoena and communicated regularly with both the committee's majority and minority staffs on the timing, scope, and content of the estate's responses. My appearance here today, as with my co-executive testimony before the committee last week, represents our continuing cooperation with the committee's efforts to investigate matters regarding Mr. Epstein. In addition, since we were appointed in 2019 by the United States Virgin Islands Probate Court as co-executives of Mr. Epstein's estate, we have fully cooperated with the US Department of Justice's investigation of Epstein related matters. I'd also like to note the extensive efforts that my co-executive and I have made to address the wrongs committed by Mr. Epstein during his lifetime. At our direction, the estate initiated, developed, and funded the Epstein victim's compensation program, the first of its kind established by an estate, which provided a private, voluntary, and non-confrontational means to compensate women who suffered sexual abuse by Mr. Epstein. Independently administered by preeminent figures in the field of victims compensation, the EBCP awarded more than $121 million to 136 women, all of which the estate funded pursuant to our express direction that one, there was to be no cap on monies awarded either individually or in the aggregate, and two, even women whose claims were timebarred or who had previously signed releases could participate. The estate has also directly settled claims by an additional 59 women for a total of more than $48 million, including the recently proposed settlement in a puditive class action lawsuit filed in 2024 on behalf of all women abused by Mr. Epstein, a settlement that the court preliminary approved earlier this month. My co-executive and I have authorized payment by the Epstein estate of more than $200 million to women who assert they were abused or trafficked by Mr. Epstein. Let me be clear. I had no knowledge whatsoever of Jeffrey Epstein's wrongdoings. My complete lack of involvement in that misconduct is a matter of record. Not a single woman has ever accused me of committing sexual abuse or witnessing sexual abuse, nor claimed at any time that she or anyone else reported to me any allegation of Mr. Epstein's abuse. I did not socialize with Epstein, and I reject as categorically false any suggestion that I knowingly facilitated or assisted Mr. Epstein in his sexual abuse or trafficking of women, or that I was aware of his actions while I provided legal services to him. Far from being Mr. Epstein's lieutenant or chief of staff, as I have been incorrectly described by plaintiffs, lawyers, and uninformed journalists, I was one of many attorneys who Mr. Epstein regularly consulted, including such noted luminaries as Kenneth Star, for entirely legitimate purposes. My primary role was to provide corporate, transactional, and general legal services to Mr. Epstein and his companies. And yes, I did so. The press and plaintiff's council have mischaracterized cash withdrawals I made from Mr. Epstein's bank accounts from 2013 to 2017. Entirely ignored in that reporting is the fact that the bank involved knew full well that these accounts belong to Mr. Epstein. Neither I nor he made any effort to disguise his name or identity. And as part of its standard policy, the bank itself imposed a $7,500 limit on daily cash withdrawals. I was not attempting to structure such withdrawals to avoid federal reporting requirements. Quite the contrary, I simply sought to comply with the bank's internal requirements and limits with the bank's full knowledge. It is undisputed that during this time, Mr. Epstein had difficulty assessing credit cards from major banks. Instead, he and his staff required cash to pay for a wide variety of expenses, including maintenance, repairs, and daily household needs for his residential properties in New York, Florida, New Mexico, Paris, and the USVI, as well as meals, gifts, gratuitities, and fuel for his private aircraft. For a person of Mr. Epstein's financial position with five multi-million dollar residences staffed by dozens of employees and with an extensive travel itinerary. It did not strike me as unusual that Mr. Epstein's business, household, and personal needs required large amounts of cash on a regular basis. I never believe that the cash I withdrew from Mr. Epstein and his staff was used by Mr. Epstein or his staff for any improper purposes. There have also been allegations of my supposed involvement in facilitating forced or sham marriages between women in Mr. Epstein's life. Those allegations too are 100% untrue. I did not arrange, assist, or facilitate any marriages between acquaintances of Mr. Epstein. Nor was I aware in advance that such marriages took place. Same-sex marriage has been legal in New York since 2011 with his passage of the Marriage Equality Act. I did not consider it appropriate to interrogate anyone as to the reasons for their decisions to marry or the bonafidees of their relationships. I don't mean in any way to condone or excuse Mr. Epstein's reprehensible conduct. Quite the opposite, I condemn it wholeheartedly. Had I known that he was abusing or trafficking women, I would have quit working for him at once and severed all ties to him. The truth is that I did not know what Mr. Epstein did after hours, what he did behind closed doors, and what he did in places where I was not present. I first met Epstein in 1996 when he was already a highly successful businessman. After he plead guilty in 2008 to procuring a person under the age of 18 for prostitution, Mr. Epstein appeared to me to be devastated and extremely contrite. He was adamant that he had no idea that anyone involved was underage and personally assured me that he would never again let himself be in that position. I believed him and I made the mistake of believing that Mr. Epstein would not again commit a crime. I deeply regret doing so. Most importantly, I feel horrible for the women whom Mr. Epstein abused. While my professional association with Jeffrey Epstein has subjected my family to death threats and malicious personal attacks, I don't expect the members of the committee or the public to feel sympathy for me. But I am left trying to explain what many people who knew Jeffrey Ebstein have noted after his death. He led two entirely separate lives. His professional one and the other, a private personal one that caused many others to suffer. that I did not know what my client did in his private life. It'd be difficult for some to believe, but it's true. Thank you.

>> Starting with the majority, may all individuals, members, and staff who have since joined us uh since the beginning, please announce themselves for the record.

>> James Cer, chairman from Kentucky. Andy, Congressman, Arizona 5. William Tman, South House, fourth congressional district. Dave 147 James 11.

>> Thank you. The time reads 10:22 and the majority's time will begin now. Mr. Ind, let's begin by discussing your education and experience. Where did you attend undergraduate school?

>> Colgate University.

>> And what degree did you graduate with?

>> A degree in education and economics.

>> What year did you graduate?

1986.

>> And where did you attend law school?

>> Cornell Law School.

>> And when did you graduate law school?

>> 1991.

>> When were you admitted to practice law?

>> 1992.

>> In what states were you admitted?

>> New York. Initially.

>> And where have you since been admitted?

>> In 2019, I was admitted to practice law in the state of Florida.

Is your license currently in good standing?

>> I believe my licenses in both New York and Florida are in good standing.

>> Can you briefly go through your professional career up until now?

>> Sure. Um, when I graduated Cornell Law School, I worked as first a clerk and then as an associate for the law firm of Golden Wel. I did that until I think it was 1994. In 1995, I joined the law firm of Greenberg Tar in New York City. I worked there until sometime in 1996 towards the beginning of 1996 at which point um I was asked by someone who was a former partner at Golden Watel to go work for him and with him um to represent uh Jeffrey Epste and his and his company. And since then um I have been working to represent um primarily Jeffrey Epstein both as a an employee and then subsequently um as a uh as a in my capacity as a law firm my own law firm.

>> Prior to your employment with Mr. Epstein, what areas of law did you practice?

>> Corporate securities and trademark law.

When did you first meet Jeffrey Absoon?

>> Um, sometime in 1996. Towards the beginning of 1996.

>> And Mr. And I understand that you're hard of her hearing, so we're going to try to speak up, but if you could also speak up as well for everyone in the room.

>> Sure. So let's let's begin again. When did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein?

>> It was I believe towards the beginning of 1996.

>> Where did you meet him?

>> Uh at his office

>> in New York City.

>> And why did you meet him at that time?

>> Uh prior to my meeting Mr. Epstein, the partner that I worked for at Golden Mel had asked me to come work with him to represent Mr. Epstein. And as part of uh me doing that, um he wanted me to meet Mr. Epste in his office. So I did so.

>> And for the record, I missed this. Who else was present during this meeting?

I don't recall it was many years ago. Um, it that partner may have been there. Um, so it would have been him and and Mr. Epstein.

>> I think I don't recall anybody else.

>> And what did you discuss with Mr. Epste at this time?

Um I can't call recall specifically but um basically he asked me questions about my background uh you know corporate securityurities background about the work I did at Golden Wel and the work I did at Greenberg Tar um told me I'd be doing similar work for him.

>> Prior to meeting Mr. Epstein what did you know about him?

>> Very little. Um, when I worked at Golden WTEL, I understood that he was a client of Golden Wel. Um, and I understood that the partner that I worked for at Golden Wattel had done some work with him along with one of the name partners, uh, Bob Gold. But that's that's the extent of what I knew about it.

>> And what you testified to was all related to his business. Did he have any reputation outside of his business as it related to young women or girls at this time?

>> Not that I knew of.

>> Were what were your first impressions of Mr. Epsane?

I was slightly intimidated because he was u explained to me to be a very wealthy man. Um I was um not very wealthy um and I was very young at the time and he was explained to me to be a very successful businessman. My impressions for him was that he was no nonsense. Uh he seemed pleasant enough. Um nothing more than that.

>> What did you understand his job to be at the time?

I understood that I would be providing support and assistance to the partner that brought me in in connection with uh representing Mr. Epstein's business interests.

>> And you mentioned that

>> I think Jack, could you ask what do you understand his job to be or your job to be?

>> Uh Mr. Epstein's job.

>> Oh, I'm sorry. Forgive me. Uh Mr. Epstein's job. My understanding was that he was a financial consultant for wealthy individuals.

>> Did you know who his clients were at the time?

>> No.

>> Just just because you mean before he took the job.

>> Correct.

>> We've had a member join Jasmine sex.

>> Mr. Ind recognizing that we'll discuss more specifics later, can you briefly describe the nature and extent of your relationship with Mr. Epstein?

>> I was one of Mr. Epstein's many attorneys. My goal my goal my role was uh primarily a role as a transactional corporate and transactional attorney. Um my role was to review documents, um summarize documents, analyze documents, um critique documents, draft documents, um in a wide variety of of of areas. um investment investment documents um um private placement memorandum subscription agreements option agreements warrant agreements um let's see what else um registration rights agreements stock purchase agreements um rights of first refusal agreements all of those and the kind of um side letters for investments all of those in the in the investment field. Um there were times um when um he would do some trading and my role was to review the trading confirmations and to the extent there were documents required as a precursor to the trading like interest swap agreements, things like that, I would review the interest swap agreements to the extent that I had any comments on those. I would I would um um give my comments on those agreements. If uh Epstein was going to buy or sell a business, um there were times when I would be required to draft basic uh business agreements or letters of intent or if he was or review a purchase agreement or a sale agreement and then critique it and summarize it and and provide any any any evaluation of it. Um Epstein had aircraft and his clients had aircraft. Um I was um involved as an attorney and in connection with the acquisition and sale of aircraft, fixed wing aircraft, helicopters, rotocraft, both new builds from manufacturers like Sakorski and sometimes when they were resales of the aircraft. Also, there was lots of real estate that was being acquired and sold during this time. So, um, there I would I would work with local council. Um, if it wasn't in New York, for example, I would work and sometimes even if it was, I would work with local real estate council in the acquisition or sale of of um real estate any anything from large uh acreage ranches to to islands to to town houses to to apartments to homes uh any number any number of uh parcels of real estate. And in connection with some of the real estate that was acquired, there was a lot of construction going on during the course of my representation. And that construction would require architects and design. So I would review AIA architectural and design agreements. Again, summarize, critique, evaluate. Um I would review proposals. um just make sure that the propos proposals for any particular building or design were incorporated all of what I understood to be the kind of the roles or the or the the program for the the building that was to be done. Um there was construction management agreements that had to be reviewed, general contractor agreements that had to be reviewed. Sometimes leans would come up. Um so all of that those things would have to be reviewed um from time to time. Um when uh a new asset like an aircraft or a helicopter or even a large boat uh would be um acquired. um a new entity would be formed for that for that um for that asset because that asset was a large um tended to be as as an aircraft. Aircrafts can fall out of the sky. They could cause serious damage. So um so kind of it's corporate law 101 that make sure that when you have a kind of a liability type asset you put that asset in a separate entity. So other assets held by the person um can't be subject to the liability that is created by that asset. The same holds true for it's again it's kind of normal uh operating procedure particularly for people in high net worth situations when you would form when you would take on a new investment or there would be an investment program you would form a separate entity for that investment program um for new businesses because you didn't because you didn't want to mix a new business with an old business you would form an entity for the for that new business so so part of part of what I did is either if it was some place that in a jurisdiction where where I was admitted and I knew of a corporate service company to to do it, I would have a corporate service company form the entity. Um, if not, I would have the local attorney do the same. So, we did those things. Um, just kind of the the the types of things sometimes are very very complex. There was a just to give you an example, there was a uh a project that required connecting one of Epstein's islands, you know, because you had two uh that island to the to the the St. Thomas mainland, and that required the manufacturer of a 15 KV cable with fiber optic capabilities by this Italian manufacturer. So, I would have to work on that that agreement with the manufacturer and then we'd have to do um I'd have to work on the a separate agreement for the installation of that cable across the the the span from St. Thomas mainland to to the island. And then you'd have to work on the local to step down the cable, you know, all all the work that the electrical contractors had to do to to connect the connect the cable to the island. And then there was also permitting that I had to work with local council who handled the permitting and local um um environmental consultants to do the per permitting to lay the cable on the ocean bed. So I so lots of different things like that. Um there was um

>> yes I just have a couple questions related to the number of attorneys you mentioned there were a number of attorneys um working in house essentially for Mr. Epstein. Is that correct?

>> No, it it was a number of attorneys that that Mr. Epstein engaged.

>> Okay. So, how many were actually working in house?

>> Um at which time, sir.

>> Give me an example. Early on

>> early on three attorneys

>> and then uh as time went on

>> um two attorneys and then ultimately um nobody was working in house. Ultimately, um, uh, he was using outside counsel, including me as outside counsel and other attorneys as out outside counsel.

>> When you had the three attorneys, are you one of those three?

>> I was one of the three attorneys.

>> We got down to two, obviously. You were one of

>> I was still, yes, one of the attorneys there.

>> Okay. And then you you continued on until

>> uh I continued on um with the other attorney. I was there. Um, but um the other attorney um formed an entity to to serve to serve uh Epstein and other clients and I worked for for that entity and I was a junior member of that entity and then ultimately um I formed my own law firm.

>> Did you have any associates in that law firm or partners?

>> No sle proprietor. I was

>> sure

>> we've had more members and staff join. Can they please announce themselves for the record?

>> Robert Garcia. I'm the ranking member for Democrats. Ro California 17. I want to stick with asking general questions to start. So during the course of your uh representing Mr. Epstein, how often did you communicate with him?

>> Uh um towards the beginning infrequently. I mean I I saw him from time to time. I spoke to him from time to time, but mostly his communications were with the partner that that I worked with and then the partner that I worked with would speak to me about assignments that I had specifically over time. Um, I would have some interactions with him. Uh, I would get direct assignments from Mr. Epstein.

>> And you mentioned the partner, that's the same partner you referenced before.

>> Yeah, it's the partner who kind of asked me to come and join him representing Mr.

For the record, what was his name?

>> His name was Jeffrey Jance.

>> And how would you typically communicate with Epstein?

>> Um, at which time

>> during the course of your relationship?

>> Okay. So, um, kind of multi multifaceted. Um, sometimes I would get messages. Uh sometimes um I would be um I would get a communication through the partner. Sometimes he would be in the office and I would meet with him for two minutes, you know, not much, not a lot of facetime. Um, and get a get a specific assignment and then sometimes I would get a message from his assistant saying something that that Epstein wanted from me. and there and towards the later end um I would I would meet with him when he no longer had an office in New York towards the later end I would meet with him um I would meet with him on the ground floor in the dining room of his residence

>> how often would you meet with him at the residence

>> it really depends So, um, towards the beginning, not at all. Um, as time went on, once a month, sometimes twice a month. Um, if he was in town and there was a transaction going on, could have been more, but typically it was typically was about twice a month.

>> How long would your meetings last when you would visit his residence?

typically an hour or so, maybe two most

>> who typically would be present.

>> Um, that's a it it's there is no tip there was no kind of typical thing about who would be president. It really depended on the transaction and and the specific matter that that was or matters that I was meeting with him about. and I can hear you just fine, but there's a lot of people in the room that are struggling to hear you. So,

>> I'm sorry, however much you can speak up.

Okay. Very helpful.

>> Yes.

>> But I just want to focus on who was present. Did there are women that have been identified and deemed as assistants of Mr. Epstein? Do you recall them being present at these meetings?

I I recall women coming into the meeting um delivering a message to him, sometimes bringing some food to him. Um, but generally uh his personal assistants were not in the meetings.

>> And you mentioned that early on you'd have meetings at your office and then it seemed that it became more common that you'd meet at the residence. When did the shift occur?

Um I I think it was 1998 when Mr. Epstein moved um his residence his primary residence to the US Virgin Islands and his business to the US Virgin Islands. So he no longer maintained an office in New York. And so when he came to New York, um the requirement was to meet at his residence.

>> And I'm going to ask you a general question here. Uh what were the nature of your communications with Mr. Epstein?

>> Did you rephrase the question?

>> What were the nature of your communications with Mr. Epstein?

I'm I'm trying to that's very general and I I don't really I don't really know what

>> were the nature of your communications always related to the furnishing of legal services?

>> Yes.

>> So for the record, did you ever have any communications with Mr. Epstein related to young women or girls?

>> No, absolutely not.

How would you characterize your relationship with Mr. Epstein?

>> It was strictly a business relationship, strictly a legal relationship.

>> For the record, at any point, did you consider Mr. Epstein to be a friend?

>> No.

>> Did you ever spend time with Mr. Epstein, apart from your duties as his attorney?

>> I never socialized with Mr. Epstein. I never spent any time with Mr. Epstein other than when I was there for a a status report or a a legal project for Mr. Epstein.

>> Did you ever consider Epstein to be a mentor?

>> I did initially. Um, and I could let me tell you a little story about that.

>> When I first started uh working for uh Epstein, um one of the I got this assignment. I can't remember the the transaction that that I was working on, but I I got this agreement. Um, and he told me I needed to get it um reviewed and critiqued and I mark it up is the word that they use. Mark it up and give me your com comments to it. I think I had 24 hours to do it. So I went back to my office, spent a very long time in my office, probably like 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock that night marking the thing up. And when I gave it to him was full of red. It's completely red. And I thought I'd done a fabulous job and marking up an agreement and showing all the ways the agreement was defective. When he looked at it, kind of looked at it and said, "Well, what am I supposed to do with this? I have a transaction I have to get done within the next week. This is never g First of all, I don't know what's real, what's not real here, what's important, what's not important here. This I can never get a transaction done if this is what I have to do. So, now take this back and go find me the 10 most important things and rank them in order of importance to me. Um, and I learned a huge lesson from that. uh and he taught me about being a practical lawyer, not just uh you know a lawyer that's finding um every possible theoretical kind of loophole in an agreement. So in that respect I I thought he was very helpful. Um, and so that's and and he had he had other kind of advice to me like that those types of things in being a lawyer to um you know don't guess at don't guess at things that I don't know tell them what I don't know tell them what I do know and if I don't know tell them I don't know those are the types of things that that he taught me to do as a lawyer which were were helpful to other people that I was working with as a lawyer.

>> Mr. Would you I mean that's helpful advice. You got to be just technically proficient to be help facilitate the the deal. Did

>> when you when you were working with him, you never sat down, had a drink, never sat down and smoked a cigar with him?

>> No. Never.

>> Two two things. He doesn't drink. Doesn't smoke. But that wasn't our relationship. You didn't you didn't never say come along to having a cocktail party after work. Come along. Nothing like that.

>> I was never invited to a single dinner party. I had a few.

>> Thank you.

>> Did you ever ask Mr. Absene for personal favors?

Um, let's see how to answer that question. I asked him for help when I was um I think it was my first year or so. Sorry. My first year or so when I worked for him. I don't remember the exact time period. Um, my my wife and I were having uh fertility issues. Um, and um for infertility treatments were quite expensive and they weren't covered by insurance. Um, so I had I had asked him if it was possible for me to forego the insurance. Um, and in lie of the amount of money that he was paying for insurance at the time, if I could take that money and and apply it towards the cost of infertility treatments. Uh, and at that time his response to me was absolutely not. you should keep your medical insurance and I will pay for your infertility issues. Subsequent to that, it didn't work and it didn't work I think four other times. Subsequent to that, without me having to ask, he would tell me when are we doing the next one? And so, uh, Estee paid for all of our infertility treatments until we were able to conceive.

This time I'd like to introduce what will be marked as majority exhibit three. And this is a letter sent in 2008 by Mr. Epstein's criminal defense lawyers to prosecutors in Florida when Epstein was under investigations for crimes committed against minors. This is compilation of statements from various employees of Mr. Epstein, all attesting to his good character. This document is base number EFTA2857458. And I would like to direct your attention to page 13. We're specifically looking at the bottom and page 14. And I will give you a moment to review. page 13. Thank you. Okay. And for the record, we're reviewing the italicized portion. Did you write this, Mr. Ind?

>> Um, I believe I did.

>> And why did you contribute a statement for this for this um the filing?

We'll see what this this was for. I believe I was asked by defense council to contribute a statement for him.

So there's a part where you mentioned that Mr. Epstein had provided emotional and financial support. Is that in reference to what you previously described as as help for infertility issues?

>> Yes.

>> And for the record again, why did Jeffrey Epstein offer to pay for these services?

>> I can't tell you what was in his own mind, but I can tell you my perception was that he was being generous to me. he didn't really know me very long and there was no kind of obvious benefit to him at this at that stage in my career with him. So I I guess he was being generous. I will say this that you know in the in the years that followed his he did he did this kind of thing for other employees, friends, acquaintances. He he appeared to be generous. He appeared to understand that his money could do good things and he appeared to use his money to do things like that for people.

>> Did he provide you any other support besides the infertility ser or support?

>> Can you be more specific in terms of the time frame?

>> Well, we're looking at this character reference around this time 2008. Um, no, that but you know that was a that was a big deal. Obviously, uh, it was it was a very difficult time for my wife and I. Um, and it was very meaningful to me to have that support.

We've had another member of Congress join. Can she please identify herself for the record?

>> Can Congresswoman Melanie Stansfree from New Mexico?

>> Mr. Ind. Yes,

>> it's a poignant letter that you wrote here. Did you see in the whole packet that was submitted the defense for string report was submitted?

>> I don't I don't recall.

>> Were you aware what the charges were pending um at the time that you wrote your statement?

>> I'm trying to remember when this when this statement was written. Um um it was kind of fluid at that time.

>> Well, you knew that there was some kind of criminal uh allegation against him, which is why you there was the criminal defense attorney does ask you right to left, right?

>> Yes, there were criminal allegations against

>> you know the allegation.

>> Again, it it it it depends at at what time we're talking about. My understanding,

>> can you please speak up for the mic? I'm sorry, Mr. is

>> no no my my apologies. I'm sorry I'm not speaking loudly enough. My understanding basically that the allegations against him at at the time I think at the time that this was going on forgive me was a while ago but I think the allegations at that time this is the the state investigation in Palm Beach were that there were massages at his house. some of those massages wound up sexual in nature and that um at times it wound up being the case that some there were some underage women there in the massages.

>> That's good. So you you understood that that those were the allegations or the number of the charges at the time you you wrote your letter?

I did understand that those were the allegations, but if I could talk a little bit more about that, I'd like to if that's okay.

>> I'm sure they're going to get into that. I just want to ask one other question.

>> You wrote the letter. Criminal defense attorney asked you to write the letter. Did you ever discuss the charges with Mr. Epstein before you wrote your statement?

>> No.

You never talked to him once about these allegations before. Even though you just described somewhat of what you knew about him, you did not discuss that with him at all before you wrote a good character reference book.

>> To the extent that there were discussions with Epstein, they were always in the presence of defense council. There were many there were many lawyers there and I was a member of that group. So I never had a personal conversation with him

>> like that like the one that you're suggesting.

>> And during that dur those those conversations I assume that Mr. Epste wasn't mute. He was speaking perhaps about charging.

>> So So well well couple of things I I I I want to talk to you about them but I will say this. Um, I have a balance of privilege here, but I also don't want it to be that I'm trying to withhold withhold anything from you. So, at the time that this was going on, what I was learning from the defense people who were investigating it was that the investigation was was full of allegations that were in many ways untrue, contradicted by recorded transcribed statements from the witnesses. the what I understood from from the attorneys was that the police investigation was flawed and somehow either biased or there was some or or the the facts of that investigation as described in the police report were inconsistent with recorded statements from the witnesses omitted information that the witnesses gave them in recorded statements. There was even, if I recall, there was even in the police report um um reference to a a trash pole where they where the police report indicated that they found a sex toy in in the trash bowl. And it later turned out that that what was identified as a sex toy was in fact a broken salad utensil. And so, but when the police when the police used the information from their report in their affidavit and their arrest warrants, um they kept the part about it being hunting sex toys um in the in the garbage pole, but never mentioned the fact that it was later found to be a salary pencil. There's also no mentioned in that police report about the fact that Epstein had been adamant that he didn't know that anybody was underage. In fact, there was, as I understood it, because I didn't do it, but as I understood it, there was a a lie detector test, a polygraph test where Epstein, which indicated that Epstein was being truthful when he when he said he didn't know about the AI.

>> So, so Mr. indict.

>> So

>> let's let's go back to an earlier question that I asked you about when in context of that charge

>> when in context to his adjudication of guilt and his sentencing. I assume and you can correct me if I'm wrong that you wrote this in connection with the sentencing or the presentencing report on behalf of the defense. Is that is that accurate?

I don't I don't I don't know for a fact, but I don't I I that's not what I recollect.

>> Okay.

>> I think this was done this was done previously.

>> So So before So what I find intriguing about with which you just testified to, you should rather link the detail about the uh theory of the defense of Mr. But you're having trouble contextualizing when you wrote this particular document. I find that intriguing and a little bit difficult for me to understand why.

>> May I just say that the doc I mean he didn't write the document. He wrote that excerpt just to be clear.

>> No, that's that's correct.

>> Okay. Well, over the course of the reason I can provide as much detail about the defense position is because that detail has been argued over and over and over again by the defense council. So, it's something that has stuck in my stuck in my mind when this was written. It was written it was written once I don't I don't it is also a very long time ago. Um, and so I can't tell you precisely when it was written and I can't tell you I I just can't tell you ex the full context when this was submitted.

>> In your opening, you said that after 2008, after his guilty plea, you thought that he was contrite and that um he learned from his mistake and you said that you were horrified to learn of the crimes he committed after. What crimes you referencing after 2008? So now with hindsight, um,

>> was he ever charged or I'm unaware of any charge or referencing times post 2008. Is there what charges are you referencing? What crimes are you referencing?

>> I'm not uh referencing any charges after 2008. um after he was um

>> what conduct after 2008 was criminal because you you said that you were horrified to learn of his criminal activity after

>> I'm not sure did I don't think I said I was horrified to learn of his criminal I'm horri I was horrified that he hurt people but all of that is in the context of statements that have that have emerged since his death

>> what criminal activity occurred I'm gonna what criminal activity occurred post 2008 I don't specifically know what criminal activity occurred post 2008. I wasn't there. I didn't see any criminal activity, but what I've seen now are allegations by a number of women that have come to light after he died where they settled because these things happened. And while I've never seen him do anything that way, nobody's ever reported anything to me that way. Um clearly with all the these women saying this this happened after the fact I cannot say that he didn't do a lot of bad things and so learning this after his death. I I feel horribly and that's what I said. I do feel horrible.

>> So Mr. Ind just go back to the the statement you won that was inserted in the defense statement. I I just um wondering if it's was it your normal practice to write such a letter of recommendation on behalf of someone without full understanding of the ramifications of what you were saying and the allegations and the context with which you were being asked to write that? I mean, did you did you know why you were being asked to write that specific statement?

>> I knew that people were saying were making allegations against him which were contrary to the to what I had observed in him. And the truth is that I felt they asked me for what he had done that that was generous to me and I felt like I could be honest about that and so that's why I did it.

you. So, so I I I'm aware that you were a transactional attorney probably did general ramifications, but you understood, I would guess, as an attorney somewhere along the pipe had to understand something about criminal law that your statement um was going to be used to facilitate a reduction in sentence, reduction charges, or some benefit to Mr. substance in light of the subst rather substantial charges which you described in some detail that you were aware of

>> at at the time at the time that first of all this is the first time anything like that ever happened to me so to some extent this is all it's all very new to me um I

I am still representing the person. Um, the person that I represented never exhibited this kind of conduct to me. Um, was very generous to me, uh, and at the time.

But you, but even even though he was generous to you, you understood this was going to be used to facilitate either reduction in sentence or reduction of charges?

But I also understood that the answer is, I understood that it was going, I didn't know it was going to be used for reduction of charges or reduction of sentence. I understood it was going to be used to give to, uh, law enforcement as a character reference for him. Okay, I did understand that.

And so why would you give a character reference if not for reduction of sentence or reduction in charges? I mean, that's why you would give something like that to a police agency, is it not?

That's not what was going on. That's not what I was thinking at the time.

It was, uh, Mr. Ind referenced, uh, attorney-client privilege. Just for the record, if you wish to assert any privilege, you must say so, uh, on the record.

So far, there haven't been very specific questions. If that does arrive, I'll, does arrive, I'll let you know.

And we're going to jump around a little bit here, but you had mentioned that the allegations that were, uh, made against Mr. Epstein during that 2006-2008 period, you had mentioned they were untrue. Who did you make that determination yourself?

No, that was communicated to me.

Who communicated that to you?

And through, was communicated through defense counsel. And the reason I can discuss it is it's the same, it's the same statements that defense counsel made in, in documents they delivered to the, excuse me, to the government.

And for the record, who was the defense counsel?

Epstein had a lot of defense attorneys at the time. Off the top of my head, Jerry Lefcourt was one. Gerald Lefcourt was one. I believe Jack Goldberger was one. Um, I believe my team was one. Um, um, Duruitz, Alan Dershowitz, I think I mentioned, um, Lily Sanchez at different, I don't, I'm trying to remember who was who was involved at that particular time. Um, Cheryl Reich, I believe, was a lesbian attorney, a criminal defense attorney of his at the time. Uh, Guy Lewis also, um, Marty Martin Weinberg, but I, you know, the attorneys came on at different times, so I can't tell you exactly who came on when.

In addition to defense counsel, did Mr. Epstein hire private investigators?

Um, I don't know that Mr. Epstein hired private investigators. I believe the defense counsel hired private investigators.

Why were private investigators?

Sorry, Roy Black. I want to add to that. Roy Black was part of this as well.

Why was, were defense or, uh, private investigators hired?

Um, not being a, a criminal defense attorney, um, and not being participating at the time that they did this because I came in after. I didn't hear anything about the allegations until about 2006 or so. Uh, the many of the attorney, much of the attorney's work had already been done by that time, um, including, I think, the hiring of, um, private investigators. So the actual reasons as to why, I don't know, but I think my assumption at the time was that's kind of what you do as a criminal defense attorney is you bring on a private investigator to, to find out information so that you can have a full idea of, of what you're offending.

For the record, did you ever work with these private investigators?

Um, at some point I did communicate with, uh, private investigators, I think for payment. Um, but I, um, and I'm sure I must have had conversations at some point in the process, not early on, but I just don't remember.

But you, you yourself, as far as the work that the private investigators were conducting, you didn't direct them?

For the, for the criminal work that you're talking about, absolutely not.

And earlier you mentioned that you never socialized with Mr. Epstein. Did Mr. Epstein ever invite you to social events?

I was invited one time, and it was the only time to not a social event with him, frankly, but, um, it was a Victoria's Secret fashion show. I was invited one time and that was the only time. I, I think I saw him there once, but I certainly didn't socialize with him there. I, and, and it wasn't just me. It was me, Jeff Shans, who I worked with. Um, so it was, so the attorneys, the attorneys were invited.

And other than, other than that, no, I've never was invited to a dinner. I never was invited to a show. I never invited to any, a movie or anything with him. No.

And I want to return back to the statement that you provided for Epstein's defense. It is, it is true that you made Mr. Epstein a godfather of your children?

Yes. Um, it was, it was an honorary appellation. Um, I had no expectation because I didn't have that kind of relationship with him. But I wanted to show gratitude, to do something to show gratitude for how he helped my wife and I have, have our children. And so I had asked him, would it be okay? And he wouldn't have any obligation to do anything. But, you know, as a way of honoring him, if I could make him honorary godfather, and I did.

Sorry. Based on your testimony, your children did not have any relationship with Mr. Epstein?

No. I, I, I think in total they met him twice, uh, in the office, and they were very, very, uh, they were very, very young at the time. It was my wife was there. They were in the office. I think it's two times.

Would you have entrusted Mr. Epstein to care for your children?

To care for my children? I wouldn't have trusted anybody to care for my children.

Who is Ghislaine Maxwell?

Ghislaine Maxwell was an associate of Jeffrey Epstein.

When did you first meet Ghislaine Maxwell?

Sometime after I started working representing Epstein in 1996.

What did you understand her relationship to be with Mr. Epstein?

My understanding, and, uh, at the time, my understanding was that she was largely kind of a, a, an overall household manager. Um, Epstein even then would travel from different households and, uh, she was responsible for making sure that the households were managed properly, that they were supplied properly, that the employees there, um, were doing the cleaning and things like that. That was my understanding of her role. I learned at some point that she had been a girlfriend of his, though I do not believe at the time that I was there that she was a girlfriend of his.

And you mentioned that she would manage Mr. Epstein's properties. Did you ever understand her to have any role in arranging or scheduling massages for Mr. Epstein?

No.

She never talked to you about paying for massages?

No.

How often did you interact with Ghislaine Maxwell?

Um, when, um, when I worked in the office on, uh, in New York City on Madison Avenue, she had an office there. So she appeared from time to time. She wasn't in my section of the office, but she was there. So I would see her, I would say hello, that kind of thing. Um, and it wasn't, it wasn't super frequent, but I saw her, I saw her there.

As far as your day-to-day, the legal services you were providing, did you have any interactions with her?

At times I did. Again, you know, most of my stuff is very specific or it was transactional. So, there were times I believe Maxwell, um, purchased a townhouse. So, I did work for that townhouse, the purchase of that townhouse. Um, I believe there were, believe she had me look at an agreement or two. I can't recall which agreements off the top of my head, but I believe she had me look at agreements or two. Sometimes she would, um, convey requests by Epstein for me to do some kind of a transactional or corporate work for.

And you mentioned the acquisition of the property. This past week, we had Mr. Khan testified. He said that there was accounting work that he did for Ms. Maxwell and she, don't want to mischaracterize his testimony, but said effectively that she didn't pay. Did she pay you for the work that you did for her?

No, it was done, you know, to the extent I did work for her, it was at the authorization of Epstein.

Would you consider Ghislaine Maxwell at any point to be a friend of yours?

No.

Do you believe that Maxwell facilitated Epstein's access to minor victims?

I don't know.

Mr. Indyk, I want the record to be clear, so I'm going to ask you some questions related to the investigation of Mr. Epstein in 2005. When did you first become aware that there was an investigation into Mr. Epstein's conduct in Southern Florida?

I'm not entirely certain. I believe it was 2006, 2007.

And for the record, you did not have any knowledge of his illegal, the legal activity by Mr. Epstein prior to his arrest?

I'd worked for him for a decade and I had no knowledge of anything, any allegations being made against him like that.

On October 20th of 2005, police executed a search warrant for Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach, Florida home. Do you recall this occurring?

Uh, can you tell me the date again?

October 20th, 2005.

I, I don't think I knew contemporaneously.

Palm Beach detective Joseph Perry spoke out about his belief that Epstein was tipped off about the raid since multiple computers expected to be at his house were missing when the search warrant was executed. To your knowledge, did anyone tip off Jeffrey Epstein to the October 20th search warrant in Palm Beach?

I don't know.

When you visited Mr. Epstein's properties, did you notice cameras?

Um,

Did we, you specify which property?

Uh, well, you mentioned the Manhattan property at one point.

Sure. So, let's, let's, let's, let's break it down. The Manhattan property. My understanding about the cameras. There were cameras in the Manhattan property. Um, my understanding is that they were external cameras. Um, there was a security room when you first walked in to the right that had, um, monitors of the external cameras that were all around the perimeter, the outside, the outside of his, of his, of his townhouse. Um, I later found out, and by later I mean, I think, you know, after things start to get conflated, but I think I found this out after he got, um, arrested the second time, that there was one camera, and this is probably even after he died, that was one camera. He had a, he had a safe room in the house. I didn't even know there was a safe room in the house, but he had a safe room in the house. And there was a camera outside the safe room in the house. That's, those are the cameras that I knew about in, in New York. In Florida, um, there was much made about, and I think it was in the press. Again, lots of h, lot, a lot has gone on and lots of reports have come out since then, but I believe in Florida there was reference to cameras in his house, but there were cameras, as I understand it, that the police helped put in there because there was, um, concern that somebody was stealing from him. So they put the cameras, I think, in his, in his desk on the ground floor, and I wasn't sure if there was maybe one in the garage as well, but those are the cameras that I knew of.

There have been allegations that Mr. Epstein would record visits at various properties. As you don't know anything about that?

I've heard the allegations. I know of no recordings. Um, I don't know of cameras that would have that would have done that.

Mr. or Mr. Indyk, excuse me.

Yes.

Uh, the majority has about five minutes and I just want to make sure the record is clear and I'm going to ask you numerous yes or no questions. First, how did Mr. or this is not a yes or no question. How did Mr. Epstein act towards the young women or girls that he, he surrounded himself with?

The question assumes that I saw him surround himself with young women or girls. It's not, not true.

Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein engage in sexual conduct?

I never witnessed Mr. Epstein engage in sexual conduct.

Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual conduct of any kind with young women or girls?

I never witnessed Mr. Epstein have any sexual conduct. Period.

Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein sexually abuse or assault young women or girls?

I never witnessed that. No.

Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss sexual acts of any kind with you?

No.

Was it common for Mr. Epstein or Miss Maxwell to bring young women or girls to any other place where the two of you meet?

The only women that were ever in my presence, to my recollection, with one exception, I'll get to that in a second, were women who were either in their 20s or in their 30s who were assistants, who were, I understood to be personal assistants of Epstein.

He says you had an exception.

I'm sorry. And the exception, the exception is he had a goddaughter. And I, this is a, I don't know that I feel comfortable giving her name, but he had a goddaughter, um, that I believe he had seen from time to time and I had met from time to time. Couple of times, I think, because she would, when I was in his, when I was in his home, in his dining room, she had come into the dining room.

Can I just be clear? So the exception was, that's the only person who you saw as a minor female in his presence?

Correct.

Okay. Just to be clear.

Who are the assistants that you're referencing?

Um, um, Ret, Lana Paza. Um, there was a woman by the name of, um, there was, um, um, another woman by the name of, trying to remember if you have some names, I could, I could tell you if I recall them or not.

And we'll have more specific questions. Um.

Did Mr. Epstein have children of his own?

To my knowledge, no.

Did Epstein or Maxwell ever ask if you wanted them to bring women or girls to you?

Never.

Did you ever have any sexual contact with young women or girls in the presence of Epstein or Maxwell?

Absolutely not.

Did you ever have sexual contact with any young woman or girl introduced to you by Epstein or Maxwell?

Absolutely not.

Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive a massage from a young woman or girl?

No.

Did you ever receive any massages from any young woman or girl brought to you by or introduced to you by Mr. Epstein or Miss Maxwell?

No. We'll go off the record.

Go on the record.

Mr. Rende, good morning.

Good morning. I understand that Miss Crockett has a statement.

Just briefly. Um, as you go through your line of questioning, yes.

When you reference someone, if you say the assistant, if you say the partner, can you also make sure that you reference their name after you label their title for clarity of the record?

I'll try to remember that.

Thank you.

Sure.

Um, Mr. End, um, I'm going to revisit some of the areas that you discussed with my majority colleagues in the previous round. Um, in doing that, I, I don't want to make you repeat yourself. I just want to make sure that we have as clear a record as possible.

Okay.

Um, so going back to the time when Mr. Epstein first hired you, did you have a title?

Attorney.

Um, and if I understood your testimony correctly, you were the sole proprietor of an entity called Darren Endyk PLLC. Is that right?

Darren K. name that camel.

And I don't think I did, I give that name, but that is, that is.

Thank you. And if I also understand correctly, Jeffrey Epstein was the sole client of Darren K and P LLC, is that right?

He was a, the primary client. Um, from time to time, he was the primary client, and from time to time, I would do for him and for his clients, but he was the primary client. And there were times when friends or acquaintances or somebody else would come, um, I wouldn't take on jobs very often because the expectation was that I would be available, uh, at all times and that I would get projects, um, for Epstein, and sometimes it's for Epstein's clients. I would get a project and the expectation was as soon as that project came to me, that would be the most important thing we did and I would get it done very quickly. So it wasn't, you know, part of what I had to do is be available to make sure that I could respond to those things on that basis and if I brought on more clients, that would interfere with that.

Are you familiar with an entity called J. Epstein and Co.?

Um, yes. I, I, I, I am familiar with that entity. I believe it's called J. Epstein and Company.

And were you associated with it in any way?

Long time ago, but I believe that's the entity that initially employed me.

And over what period of time did J. Epstein and Company employ you?

I don't remember the exact end date, but it was from 1996 or three or so years.

And was there another entity that employed you following J. Epstein and Company?

There was another entity called New York Strategy Group, which was primarily owned by Chance.

By, I'm sorry.

By Jeffrey Shance, the partner that brought me in there. Uh, I believe I had a minority ownership of that LLC. It was an LLC.

And over what period of time were you employed through New York Strategy Group?

Uh, I believe that New York Strategy Group was my employer until I want to say 2006 or seven. And at some point, um, I became, uh, the primary owner of New York Strategy Group.

And when did Darren Endyk PLLC, sorry, Darren K. PLLC come into existence?

That came into existence, I believe, in 2008. Again, it was some time ago, but I believe it was in 2008.

So, does J. Epstein and Company still exist?

No.

When was it wound down?

I believe J. Epstein and Company was wound down when Epstein moved his primary residence to the U.S. Virgin Islands and formed a company there. I don't, I don't remember the date exactly, but I, the company's name is Financial Trust Company, Inc. And, um, JF Company was discontinued at that point, I believe.

Did you have any association with Financial Trust Company Inc.?

I believe, uh, I was at some point a corporate secretary, may have been a, a, a vice president in an administrative sense.

You were asked earlier about, um, your communications with Jeffrey Epstein. Are you aware of Jeffrey Epstein ever using encrypted messaging software or an encrypted messaging app such as Signal?

As part of the things that I did for Epstein, once he became a, uh, a registered sex offender, um, I had to report or include in a report to the, to the New York Sex Offender Registry, um, apps that he had used or that, that he had a presence on. I want to say that at some point, um, I remember Signal being used and maybe WhatsApp, though I don't, I can't tell you when.

At the time you started working for Jeffrey Epstein, what was his net worth to your knowledge? An approximate number is fine.

I don't know.

Um, did you come to know that later in time?

Um, well, I certainly, I know it when he died because I'm co-executive of the estate. I had to know it. Um, and, um, there were times that I could recall over the, you know, before I became executive, hearing net worth around, you know, half a billion, sometimes less, sometimes 300 million, but, you know, accounting for his assets and his, his wealth, that wasn't, that wasn't my role. So if I heard it, I heard it in passing, not necessarily something that I would, that I would be kind of investigating or reporting on.

And whose role was it to keep track of that?

Um, the accounting department.

And specifically who?

I, I, I, I think it's Rich Khan would do that. Um, I think that was part of his role when he, when he joined.

And over the period of time during which Mr. Epstein employed you, what to your understanding were the sources of his wealth?

Um, primarily they were, um, clients that he worked for and investments that he made. He was, he, he was, um, he did very well with investment funds. You know, I'm, I'm not a, a financial markets kind of person. Um, wasn't my, wasn't my kind of skill, skill set, but my understanding was the reputation that he had was that he was skilled with understanding financial markets, currencies, options, um, securities, trading, but that, um, he didn't, his business wasn't as an investment advisor. His business was more of a financial consultant. Um, but he made, um, but he did, um, have participations in funds, um, and those funds, those funds yielded him pretty, pretty solid results. So between the funds and the clientele that he had that paid him fees over time, that's, that's where his wealth came from, from my understanding.

If we could focus on the client servicing piece, how many clients did he have during the time that you worked for him?

Um, I'm trying to, I can, I can name them. I never actually thought about how many, but, um, Les Wexner, clearly, um, when I first joined, he was doing, or he had given me some kind of an assignment to do for David Rockefeller. I don't know if Rockefeller was a paying client. I wouldn't, you know, that's not something I wasn't, again, that wasn't my role, but I did work for David Rockefeller. Um, um, I believe, um, Elizabeth Johnson, um, and, um, I know there was work done for Mort Zuckerman.

Leon Black.

Um, I know the, the Rothschilds, trying to remember which of them or what entity, but I don't.

That would be Arianna Rothschild?

I, I, I, I know the name Arianna Rothschild and it's possible that it was for Arianna, but I'm not 100% certain.

Um, Glenn Dubin.

So Glenn Dubin, I don't think Glenn Dubin was a client like a, like a client in the same sense that Wexner was a client. Um, Dubin, as I understand it, you know, there are a couple of different ways that he was connected with Dubin. Um, Dubin had, um, funds that he invested in that he made a good deal of money off these funds. Uh, I think Dubin, if I recall, he referred Jeffrey to invest in a fund called, I think it's DBorn. I don't remember the full name, but that's, that's the fund name. And there was a dispute about DB Zworn, uh, that got fairly, uh, fairly elevated. Uh, and as part of the resolution of that dispute, there was a settlement that came about, came about as part of the resolution of that dispute because it was Glenn Dubin's referral to that fund. Dubin had, uh, some kind of, um, compensation payment to Epstein to settle that case. And the last thing that I recall is, um, Epstein had a company, can't remember the name of the company right now as I'm sitting here, but that company was purchased by JP Morgan, I believe, and I believe Epstein got a, um, a finder's fee for that. Uh, and that was a one-off thing. It wasn't, it wasn't like, you know, Epstein was, was kind of representing Dubin all the time.

What about Steven Sossin?

I know the name. Um, I don't know, and I believe that there was a payment from Sossin. I just don't know. I don't know the nature of that relationship. Um, and just going down the roster.

To the best of your recollection, how much did each of these people pay Epstein for the services he provided to them? And I'll start with Les Wexner.

I, I really don't know how much Wexner paid him, but it was a lot. It was a lot, but I, I just don't know how much.

And what was the nature of the work that Epstein did for Les Wexner?

Um, a, a variety of things. Um, as I understood it, and his relationship with Wexner predates my arrival there, but as I understood it, u sometimes people who obtain kind of this ultra-high net worth standing, um, get there gradually over time and they kind of build their, their offices gradually over time and when they do that, it becomes inefficient. There are people who are not necessarily doing things and are getting paid to do things, uh, and there are people doubling up on things. And so part of the thing that Epstein did, at least for Wexner, that I can recall being told about, was kind of cleaning house a little bit. Um, also they would do things for Wexner like, for example, even, you know, somebody at that level of wealth has lots and lots and lots of assets and all of those things, art, jewelry, all of that stuff require insurance. But unless you're, unless you're kind of born into it, you don't know what h, how you're supposed to deal with that. And how you're supposed to deal with that is photograph it and, and appraise it. So, so all of that, so all of that's for record. God forbid something happens to it. Um, you have good records to justify your insurance plan. So, he helped organize it, helped organize it that way. Um, um, Jeffrey did tax work, estate planning work.

Not to interrupt you, I'm receiving another request for you to speak up. I think some of our audience members are having difficulty hearing you.

Um,

Would it help if I moved this closer?

Let's try it. Yeah, let's see that. Sorry, my voice is not.

I think it's for the people in the room. Just a little.

Yeah, the mic's gonna.

So, I apologize to everybody. Um, let's see. So, Epstein also did estate planning work. Um, did, um, tax, tax planning, help people kind of, um, achieve kind of better tax results, more tax-efficient results for themselves. Um, I don't know that too much of the detail behind this, but it was my understanding that, um, um, with respect to Les Wexner, Epstein helped him, um, gain greater liquidity with the wealth that he did have because, um, things like that, um, help.

That, that's a, that's a helpful picture and I, I appreciate that.

That's Wexner.

Yeah. Um, moving down the list and I think if we could just cabin the answers to the amount that each one of these people paid Epstein to the extent you recall.

Sure.

Um, the next name is Leon Black.

Um, the way I know this is is not because I, I kind of tracked it or reported it. It is based upon what I kind of read through the papers. So Leon Black, he did work for, I can confirm that. I heard reports that it was something like $158 million and that wouldn't seem unreasonable to me.

And David Rockefeller?

I don't know.

Elizabeth Johnson?

I also don't know. Was it? She wasn't. She was a different lawyer by the name of, um, Mandy Ellison was the lawyer that worked on, uh, on her account.

Um, and Mort Zuckerman.

I don't know how much money, if any, um, that he, that he got from work.

And then the Rothschilds?

Uh, also don't, I don't, I don't know.

Shifting back to the period in time when Epstein hired you?

Yes.

Um, were you aware that he had an affinity for young women?

No.

Or for teenage girls?

No. Absolutely not. Um, did you become aware of that over time?

The only way I became aware of the allegation that he had an affinity for teenage girls was to, was once I was kind of learned about the investigation in Palm Beach.

Did you become aware at any point that Epstein sexually abused young women and teenage girls?

Um, I became aware of the allegation in, in, in Palm Beach that, um, there were massages which at times ended up sexual and that in some cases there were underage people in those massages. Um, my understanding at the time was that he was unaware of their age. Um, uh, that my understanding is that the statements given by the people who gave police statements were that, um, there wasn't force used, there wasn't coercion used. Those are the statements being made. Not, I, I'm not testifying it to myself as to what I know because I don't, um, but those are the statements. No force, no coercion. Um, and that, that the, the conduct was voluntary. Um, which again, I'm not commenting, underage. Okay.

I'm not making any comments on it, but underage.

Can I just ask if you were asking if he was ever personally aware or he's talking about allegations, but was your question?

But we veered off of it. So, yeah, I was, I was focused on the, um, personal knowledge.

Let's be clear.

I'm sorry. I have no personal knowledge of that.

We'll come back to that. Um, during your employment, Mr. Khan, um, with Jeffrey Epstein, did you ever?

Sir.

Mr. End.

I'm so sorry, Mr.

That's okay.

I beg your pardon. During your employment, Mr. End, with Jeffrey Epstein, did you ever discuss with him his sexual activity with young women, whether consensual or otherwise?

No.

Did you ever discuss that topic with anyone else?

The topic generally, I'm sure came up during legal conversations.

Um, you were speaking, uh, during the previous round about, uh, Mr. Epstein's arrest in Florida. Um, when did you learn about his arrest?

Again, the timing is a little bit, it's a little bit cloudy to me. I, I don't believe I knew about it until 2006.

How did you become aware of it?

I believe, trying to remember back, I believe Epstein told me.

And did that conversation happen in person?

It was an in-person conversation. I, I, I want to say it was, um, it was, sorry, it was an in-person conversation and I want to say it was in New York. I just don't remember where in New York.

Okay. And how long after the arrest did that conversation take place?

I, I don't know.

What did Mr. Epstein tell you during that conversation?

That he was charged, that, um, he didn't really go into the details of the charges. This is sub, this is more substance of it because I don't remember the specific conversation. Um, and then he told me that there were lawyers working on it with him and that I should work with them.

What was your reaction?

Surprised and shocked, to be honest.

Did you ask him for any additional details about the arrest or the nature of the charges?

I think I was so surprised that I, I didn't think to. And also my relationship with him wasn't so that I can get so deeply personal and I had never been involved with anything like that before, so I didn't really know what to do.

Um, was the rest of Mr. Epstein's staff informed of the arrest at some point?

Yes, at some point. I, I don't remember when.

Um, when, to your knowledge, was Mr. Khan informed of the arrest?

I don't know.

Did you ever discuss it with him?

In passing. Nothing, nothing in details.

What was the conversation in passing?

Just, um, just, um, the arrest, uh, I think maybe when he lost banking privileges, it was must have been about the arrest, you know, um, nothing. Rich Khan and I did not get into detail about Jeffrey Epstein's arrest.

What did you discuss with respect to the loss of banking privileges?

Um, again, substance, not detail, that the banking privileges at Chase were lost, that, um, and again, I don't, I don't know if, if I, other than that the banking privileges were lost, I don't know that I have enough detail to to give you more than that.

Was it your understanding that the privileges at Chase were lost as a result of Mr. Epstein's arrest?

It was an assumption more than an understanding because I don't know if anybody's experienced this, but when banks deny services to you, they don't, as a general rule, tell you why. They just say no.

But your assumption was that it was linked to the arrest as opposed to a different cause?

Yes. There was lots of publicity at the time, I think, that this happened. And so, and I also understand from your testimony during the previous round that you ultimately represented Mr. Epstein along with other counsel in connection with his arrest and prosecution in Florida.

I was never the direct defense counsel, but I was brought on as a group of people that were.

So it would be fair to say that you were a member of his defense team?

Yes. Very loosely, but yes.

So I think that anticipates my next question. Was there an allocation of responsibility among the members of the team? Did certain lawyers have responsibilities that differed from others?

You can't talk about how he allocated responsibility among the lawyers. There wasn't a group, wasn't a group meeting like, let's, you do this, you do that, you do the other thing.

Based on your observation?

My observation was that there was a group of lawyers at the time, all of whom kind of shared information and did things together. Um, I, my role was of specific task, excuse me, task-oriented. Um, sometimes I would, um, if, if Epstein would ask me, did so-and-so do this yet? Could you ask them to do this or ask them when they're going to do this? Um, but, um, I believe it was more like a group, a group thing. Uh, some people, some people were better writers than others. Marty, Marty Weinberg was a very good writer. Um, Dfco is also a very good writer. Um, but I think as, as a rule, everybody kind of worked together.

And what to your understanding were the crimes that Jeffrey Epstein ultimately pled to?

Um, my understanding was that there were two charges. One charge was a solicitation of prostitution. And the other charge was procuring prostitution of someone under the age of 18.

And please correct me if I'm wrong. I understand from your testimony earlier, um, that you were aware of the requirement that Jeffrey Epstein register as a sex offender in various states as a result of his plea. Is that right?

Yes, I became aware of that fact. Yes.

Um, and that included New York State.

Uh, yes, there was an initial registration in New York. Um.

And you were involved in the registration. Is that right?

Uh, yes, I believe, uh, I was involved with the registration.

Um, and did you become aware in connection with that that Jeffrey Epstein was designated a Level 3 sex offender in New York State?

Um, the answer to your question is yes. Um, but that was after, um, a whole, a, a round of, uh, litigation.

The issue was litigated.

The issue was litigated. Yes.

And were you part of the legal team that represented him in connection with that litigation?

Loosely. Loosely.

And was it your understanding at the time that Level 3 under New York State law meant that there had been a determination that Epstein posed a high risk of a repeat offense and a threat to public safety?

Um, I understood he had a, it was a different designation, but I don't, I didn't understand that.

Broadly speaking, were you troubled by Mr. Epstein's guilty plea and incarceration in Florida?

Um, was I troubled? Um, I was troubled. I guess the answer is yes. I, I, it was troubling. Um, the, the problem I have in grasping and kind of tackling the question you have is is not really knowing what it is. You know, it has come to, as, as it's come to pass, clearly he did something. But at the time, what I was struggling with is what it is that that he actually did do. Um, I think I went into the, previously I went into how the police reports were inconsistent with recorded statements, how there were references to items as sex toys, which weren't, were broken salad utensils. There was even a statement in the U, from, I never heard the statement directly, but I was made aware of a statement made by the lead prosecutor in Florida, um, who was a female, experienced sex crimes prosecutor, that uttered a statement to the effect that there were no real victims there. Now, I'm not saying there weren't. I'm just saying that that's what I heard at the time. So I gra, I'm, you know, struggling with these things and not knowing what allegations are true or what allegations aren't true. And, and I know that, um, with respect to his sex, sex offense, the sex offender charge, which was required not by the state, it was required by the U.S. Attorney's office after the, after the state had had kind of convened a grand jury, the grand jury came back with something that I don't remember the charge, but it wasn't that charge. And the, the consequence for that charge was mandatory PTI, which was much less than, obviously, the police chief wanted. And so, so what happened during the course of the, of the federal investigation is the, the U.S. Attorney's office wanted something more than that and wanted him to plea to one, to plead to charges that would one, put him in jail and two, uh, plea to charges that for which there would be, uh, a sex offender registration requirement. And,

The charge that they, the charge that they ultimately said you should go back to the state and make them charge you this.

Was a charge that the defense team had been saying that they didn't have the factual predicate to actually have that charge, but that will do it because that's what you want to get this thing resolved. So the, the troubling part of it, I, I, it's hard for me to un, to know for sure what actually happened, what was true, what was not true. A lot of the allegations turned out not to be true.

What about now? Do you have a belief as to whether girls and women were abused in Florida?

Well, again, you know, after he went to, uh, after he was arrested the second time and then died, um, lots of people have come forward.

Lots of them come forward who didn't come forward before, who said that they hadn't come forward. But, but, you know, since then, as the co-executive of the estate, I've been made aware of of many, many claims. And so with that number of claims being made, it's really hard to say that no, he didn't do anything. And obviously he did a lot of terrible things. So my view is, I don't know exactly what he did. And I say this again because I want everybody to be clear about this. I didn't see it. I didn't see anything and nobody complained to me about anything. So I don't know. But all these people came forward. So obviously there's something there. So your question is what are, what do I believe? No, I believe he did bad things.

At any point after you learned about Mr. Epstein's arrest in Florida, did you ever consider quitting your job?

With all of the discussion about how, the answer is, I don't think I did. Uh, you know, I'm going back in time. I, I don't think I did. And, and the explanation for that is is twofold. With all of the discussion about the, the defects in the investigation and statements from like the lead prosecutor and all the stuff and, and, and the lie detector test and all this and all of these other things. I think there was even a, a psychological evaluation that said he wasn't a pedophile. So all of these conflicting reports came. It sounded to me, it seemed to me, who was very inexperienced with this stuff, that maybe it wasn't what they were saying. And so I, so.

When taking into consideration all of that information, it sounds like you were weighing the question.

No, I'm going, the question now. The question then was, I was, I, you know, I drank the Kool-Aid at the time, is I think the, that's the answer is, I drank the Kool-Aid at the time.

I think our members have some questions for you. I got a couple questions just before, just to follow up. Do you personally believe that girls and women were abused by Jeffrey Epstein in Palm Beach?

I do believe that that Epstein engaged in bad conduct with women. Yes.

Do you believe that girls and women were abused?

I believe so. Yes.

Raped?

I don't know.

Okay. Let me get a couple questions. Mr. I want to ask a few questions related to Jane Doe 4 from the case Doe versus Jeffrey Epstein out of the Southern District of New York. Now Jane Doe 4 alleged that she met Epstein in South Carolina in the 1980s and through him was introduced to President Trump, who we know, the allegation was that he abused her when she was 13. And these are allegations made by Jane Doe. Are you aware of Jane Doe?

I'm aware of the, the Jane Doe, the, the case Jane Doe.

You're aware of Jane Doe?

Aware of the, the case Jane Doe. I'm not aware of the person.

Do you know who, do you know the identity of Jane Doe in this case?

I, I don't.

So you, you do not know the identity of Jane?

Here today, I couldn't tell you.

Okay. Have you ever seen a document with the identity of Jane Doe?

I'm sure I must have.

You, so you have seen a document?

I'm sure I must have.

Okay. Now last week, Mr. Khan, who's a co-executive of the estate, testified that Jane Doe had received a settlement from the Epstein estate, of which you're a co-executive. Now, later in the deposition, when oversight staff attorneys asked about the settlement involving Jane Doe, Mr. Khan's attorney clarified on the record, according to his team, that Mr. Khan's earlier testimony had been mistaken and that neither he nor Mr. Khan recognized Jane Doe as someone who had filed a claim against the Epstein estate. Now, since then, there's been additional back and forth and confusion about the details of Jane Doe and her interactions with the estate, and there's been back and forth and clarification. So I just want for clarity, since you're a co-executive now, Mr. Khan, and given your position as a co-executive of the estate for both, did Jane Doe receive a settlement from the estate? To be clear, as your position as a co-executive of the estate, did Jane Doe receive a settlement from the estate?

So, Congressman Garcia, I just, I have to say two things about anything with Jane Does. Um, the first is we're bound by court orders not to say anything about the identifi, to the extent someone has sued under a Jane Doe name. Um, we're not permitted by court orders to say who the person is at all. Um, secondly, putting aside whether it's someone as a Jane Doe or somebody specifically identified, we are bound in confidentiality requirements in any settlement. We are, as the estate and the co-executives, to not identify if someone has settled or anything about the settlements. Having said that, any of those claimants who have settled, typically they are not bound by that. So, you know, you're free to ask them if they want to identify things, but we cannot do that.

Okay. Aside from the identity and disclosing the identity to us of Jane Doe 4, any NDAs or non-disclosure agreements? As we have made clear in prior cases, Congress does not recognize and we have the ability to determine whether we do and do not recognize. In this case, given that you were under subpoena, we would ask that you provide us information whether Jane Doe. And let me, I, I heard you. Let me continue.

Yeah. But let me just say to that quickly that, um, putting aside whatever order may come out requiring them to disclose, I believe, but I, I'd have to look at each particular settlement agreement, we likely have notice provisions to the person settling if we were bound to disclose it to first notify that person because they could probably take.

To be clear, you're not confirming or denying the settlement of Jane 4. Is that correct?

We cannot.

So, Mr. Mr. Was, was there a settlement paid from the Epstein Victim Compensation Program to to any Jane Doe or Jane Doe 4?

We have the same confidentiality restrictions.

So you're not unwilling to answer if there was actually a, a payment from the Epstein Victim Compensation?

It's not a willingness issue. Is it bound by confidentiality?

I'm not going to take that premise, but I, I understand your, your position. Mr. Indyk, do you have any?

additional information on Jane that you can provide us?

>> No.

Okay, great. Uh, Mr. Mr. Ind.

>> Yes.

>> Um, the Epstein estate has provided documents and productions to this committee per subpoena as you're aware and we have um welcomed those of course and we've gone through those and we have uh continue to go through what's been provided. Not all the documents have still been provided to the committee. There's still some documents we believe that are in your possession. Is that correct?

>> Um, in my possession personally,

>> in possession of your state,

>> I'm

>> in response to the subpoena.

>> Just watch the subpoena.

>> I think based on conversations that council has had with both minority and majority staff, we've complied with what everyone was expecting. If there's more that people were expecting that aren't, let us know.

>> Are there additional documents with the estate that have not been provided to the committee within the bounds of the subpoena?

>> within the bounds of the subpoena based upon response. My understanding from council is that whatever was agreed upon to be provided has been provided.

Okay.

>> Are there additional documents within that the estate is has outside the dates of the subpoena the subpoena was given that are in possession of the of the estate.

>> I'm sorry outside the dates.

>> So there the subpoena obviously has dates of when to produce documents. Period of time.

Mhm.

>> Are there documents in the possession of the estate outside the period of time within the subpoena that are in the possession of you and Mr. Khan as the co-executives of the estate?

>> Uh I'm a little bit of a loss here because you know what I did is pro

>> what you're saying is you won't answer the question if there's additional

>> documents.

>> I'm trying I'm trying to answer your question sir. Um, the estate essentially gave the documents to council. Um, so I'm a little bit of a loss as to how to answer that question without without conferring with council and council telling me what was

>> I think the I mean I think the question is is pretty simple. The subpoena has a period of time where you should be producing documents within that period of time.

>> Specified documents,

>> right? Specified documents.

>> They gave you all the documents that were specified.

>> Correct. So my question is is are there additional documents related to Jeffrey Epsteina and communications outside the period of time specified in subpoena that are in the possession of the Epstein estate

>> that you didn't ask for?

>> That we didn't ask for.

>> So the subpoena didn't say give us all the documents.

>> The question is really clear. Are there additional documents outside the period of time specified in the subpoena that are in possession of the Epstein estate?

>> I I assume so. Yes.

>> You assume so?

>> Yes. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Next is here.

>> Thank you for being here.

>> Um,

>> thank you.

>> My first question. During your employment by Jeffrey Epste, did you ever become aware of a relationship between Epstein and Donald Trump?

>> The answer to that question is yes. Aware of a relationship that existed before my time.

>> Okay. Did you ever become aware of Donald Trump socializing with Epstein during your employment?

>> No. Um, again, my relationship with Epstein was not social relationship like that. Um, uh, and I I don't believe Donald Trump was ever in the office when we were there um, in New York. Uh, and I don't recall off the top of my head whether or not Epstein specifically met with him while I was employed as an attorney for Epstein.

>> And to to confirm, you began your employment with Mr. Epstein in 1996.

>> 1996. Yes.

>> And you said before your time. So you're not aware of any relationship between the two men after 1996?

>> I am not personally aware of the relationship they had between the time that I was there, you know, from the time that I was there going forward.

>> Do you believe they had a relationship?

>> What I recall is that at some point whatever relationship did exist no longer existed. And I recall that it no longer existed because of some dispute relating to some property in Palm Beach. But I can't tell you what that relationship was from the time I was there going forward because I don't know.

>> So you're saying you were not aware of Donald Trump socializing with Epstein. What about with any women connected to Epstein?

>> I believe that I had learned through a subsequent lawsuit that there was um an allegation that um that Trump uh President Trump and um well, not President Trump at the time, but Donald Trump at the time um had um some kind of uh interaction with uh with a a person alleging abuse,

>> some type of interaction.

>> I don't I don't recall specific details of it.

>> When did you become aware of this allegation?

>> I believe that I believe that I received a copy of a lawsuit. So when that lawsuit was filed, then I became aware.

>> You have any sense of when that was? What year that was?

>> It was years ago. I don't

>> I really don't. It was years ago. Um,

>> but you first said you're you believe that post 1996 Donald Trump and Epstein did not have a relationship, but at some point after that you became aware of a lawsuit.

>> Yes. Involving Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epste and an allegation.

>> I believe the allegation in that lawsuit predated the time that I was working for FC. I believe I mean if somebody could show me the lawsuit, I could read it and see difference.

>> The lawsuit was 2009.

>> Lawsuit was in 2009.

>> That's when Trump was deposed and that's when I've seen the schedule be deposed.

>> Okay. Do you recall the allegation the date of the allegation?

>> Have you ever Yeah, the Exactly. they are.

>> Have you ever discussed Donald Trump's connection to Epstein with anyone

>> other than privilege conversations that I've had?

>> Meaning with his lawyers, not Is that

>> correct?

>> During your employment by Epstein, did you ever become aware of Donald Trump visiting a property owned by Epstein either in New York, New Mexico, Paris, Ireland?

>> No.

>> During your employment by Epstein, did you ever become aware of the relationship between Epstein and Howard Lutnik?

>> No.

>> Uh, no. I I I didn't know that there was a relationship between Epstein and Howard.

>> So, you weren't aware that Mr. Lutnik was Epstein's nextdoor neighbor in Manhattan.

>> Yes, but that I was aware that he was a neighbor in Manhattan, but I wasn't aware that they actually had a relationship.

>> Okay, I believe that's my text.

>> Congressman,

>> thank you. I'm going to hand you a copy of an exhibit, exhibit A. Um, and this is a consent order issued by the New York State Department of Financial Services regarding a Deutsche Bank July 2020. I'd like you to turn to page 16, paragraph 48. And that reads, "Several of Mr. Epste's employees or agents had authority to conduct transactions in accounts on Mr. Epstein's behalf. One of them Mr. Epste's personal attorney was active in withdrawing cash from Mr. Epstein. Attorney one on behalf of Mr. Epste made a total of 97 withdrawals from the Bank of Park Avenue, New York City branch from 2013 to 2017 personal intent for longer than Mr. Epstein's." Uh, so my first question for you, Mr. is currently one here listed. Is that you?

>> I believe that's me. Yes.

>> And can you explain why you were making these withdrawal?

>> Um at this at this time

>> um there was a great deal of negative publicity about

>> this done at the direction of Mr. Epste. I guess I'll start there.

>> Well, I would like to answer the question if the question is asked.

>> I know, but but he has an answer to a serious allegation.

>> I'm asking first, were these at the direction of Mr.

>> Um, no, I do not believe that they were at the direction of Mr.

>> Do you know what the cash was used for?

>> I don't have a specific knowledge of what the cash in each instance was used for, but I know generally or believe generally that when I made cash withdrawals, they were for things for petty cash to supply the households, for supplies, um for cleaning supplies, food.

>> Um

>> you gave the cash to who? Then

>> just to be clear, I don't think he was done. That's okay. I just want the record to be clear.

>> I know but but you can't but if he's not allowed to answer the questions it's it doesn't matter direct him.

>> Okay. But just to be clear he wasn't done. If you want to go on that's fine.

>> I'm asking a follow-up question here which was the cash who was who actually received the cash?

>> The cash went to the accounting department.

>> Accounting department of Mr. Epstein

>> the So there was a an office down the hall from my office

>> where the accounting function for Mr. Epstein uh and his homes was trip for lunch. Um somebody from the accounting office would ask me for um to go to the bank to get money for the petty cash and the pettyash would service the various households. There were five different households. Um and I would go to the bank with a check drawn on Mr. Epstein's account. Um the bank knew it was from Mr. Epstein's account. Um I would get the cash and give it back to the accounting department.

>> This is a lot of cash. I just want to note a $7,500 per withdrawal. And um that would be 97 withdrawals. That is over the course of 16 months a total of over 700 $25,000 in cash.

>> Just to be clear, that paragraph says it's four years, not 16 months.

>> 60 six years. I'm sorry. I missed her. Thank you.

>> Four years. So 16 months. That's um that's a lot of cash. $725,000. It's

>> large amount of cash.

>> As a lawyer, did that not concern you or raise any red flags?

>> Well, if if you knew that Mr. Epstein had five multi-million dollar residences or six actually with the other island had dozens of staff members didn't have use of credit cards, all of those residences had lots of rooms, lots of people working there that needed food, that needed supplies, that needed equipment, that needed tools.

>> To your knowledge, was any of that I'm I'm only saying this, sir, because I'm running out of time. Was any of that money used for to give cash payments to women or young girls?

>> I I just want the record to be clear that he had not finished his prior answer, but go ahead.

>> So, I did not believe that any any amount of cash that I gave to the accounting part department was was going to be used for an improper purpose. I believed that it that there were legitimate reasons to to bring that cash in and I did so.

>> Now, uh I want to switch topics here. Do you have any kind of written representation agreement with Mr. Epstein for the scope of your services as an attorney, a retainer agreement, anything like that?

>> I believe at some point I I did.

>> That's not available in the files that produced us.

>> I don't know that I actually have any.

>> You don't have anymore. Okay. What were the terms of your scope of representation and also your payment with with Mr.

>> um the payment was was decided on an annual basis. It wasn't decided

>> not upfront, not based on hour.

>> No,

>> you just keep whatever he decided to pay you. That's what you receive.

>> The answer is yes. Um but you know he had always been generous with me so I didn't have any reason to doubt it.

>> Um he was very generous with you. So I from 2003 to 2013 according to public reports uh your personal bank account received more than $2.4 million from Epstein while your business account received over $8.3 million. You also uh received a loan that was never repaid of um uh $7 million and a copy of Mr. Epstein's trust showed that he planned to leave you $50 million. 5 uh which was matched only by his girlfriend Karina Shuliak. Um you what what were you doing for him that made him so generous to you?

>> I think I've already discussed all of the things that I did for Mr. Epstein which were all legitimate legal legal tasks. I was working for him at least six days a week, sometimes seven days a week. I was on call 24 hours a day with him. And I was not at liberty to take on other clients in a way that other lawyers in private practice would want to take on clients to continue their business.

>> That's a lot of money.

>> Yep.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you. Uh Congressman Stanford.

>> Hi.

>> So I represent Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Zoro Ranch is just north of my congressional district. And as you're probably aware, um, New Mexico has opened a truth commission and reopened the criminal investigations into what happened at the ranch. So my questions are primarily factf finding, less so much about your specific role, but really about the ranch and the investigations and why DOJ um asked the state to drop their case. I also have a follow-up question about Trump as well as um the um your work on the defense team. So that's kind of the scope of what I want to ask about. So as I understand it, you help to manage the assets at Zoro Ranch. Is that correct?

>> I wouldn't say I helped to manage the assets as I

>> were you autancial matters over the course of your employment with Jeffrey Epstein and Zoro Ranch.

>> I was

>> Did you ever travel there?

>> I've traveled to the ranch I want to say two or three times.

>> And you are you aware that there are multiple allegations that were uh taken by the FBI of sexual abuse of the ranch?

>> I have been made aware of those allegations. Yes.

>> Were you involved in any way legal or financial in um the defense of Mr. Epstein either in a state case or a federal case at the ranch?

>> No.

>> civil a civil case.

>> You were involved in a civil case

>> in a civil case and there and I believe there was a there was a case relating to wanting to there was a grazing lease that was taken away. Um

>> but in any of the sexual abuse cases

>> do you have any personal knowledge and or can you share with us why DOJ asked the state of New Mexico to drop its investigation into sexual abuse?

>> I have no personal knowledge of that. Um, I want to move on to a follow-up question on Trump and this uh this um suit that was filed by um a a young woman um against both Trump and Epstein for abuse at her house. As I understand it, looking at both the responsive documents that the estate sent us as well as separately the DOJ's files, it appears to me that these are two separate cases. Is that true?

>> Could you repeat the question?

>> So, it appears to me that the Jane do for FBI files that the federal government um is tracking uh in which a young woman was interviewed four times by the FBI for abuse at Jeffrey Epstein's New York estate is a separate case from the lawsuit that was filed in 2009 against Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Is that true?

>> I don't know.

>> You don't? Okay. In the did you help to process the files from the estate that were sent to the committee?

>> Um the answer to your question is I did.

>> Yes. Okay. So you're aware that in the files there's

>> no that I did not.

>> You did not.

>> So the the files all of the files from the estate went over to the lawyers with instructions to comply with all lawful requests.

>> So it was handled by an outside firm rather than you

>> was hand handled by the by the law firm.

>> Okay. Did you review the documents?

>> Not the volume of documents.

>> Thank you.

>> Uh but you are aware as was just established that there was a lawsuit in 2009 and there's documentation in the files that were transmitted from the estate that actually um state that Epstein was scheduled for a deposition in that case. Correct.

>> I'm trying I am aware certainly now um and I was aware I was aware generally of the case. I I think I was aware of at some point that there was a a request for

>> a deposition actually deposed. These are scheduling documents that came from the estate. Was he deposed in that case?

>> I don't believe he was. No.

>> Do you know why?

>> I don't.

>> Okay. So that goes to my final set of questions, which is did you personally or anyone that you've worked with make any payments or financial transfers to any lawyers, law enforcement officers, DOJ or state uh attorneys involved in cases against Jeffrey Epste for sexual abuse.

>> Say that one more time because it's it's there that's a lot to unpack.

>> So

>> I think just to be clear because you asked lawyers. So do you mean lawyers for the some government in that question?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. I'll ask it slightly slower because we are in a time constraint here.

>> But really what I'm trying to establish if if I may have a moment to establish it because it's an important piece of the question that we're trying to get to the bottom.

>> The overall point here is why did DOJ and state entities not prosecute these crimes in a more timely manner? And it has been alleged by survivors that they received some sort of payment. Maybe there were transfers of money involved. And so let me ask specifics. Did Alex Aosta as the US attorney for the Department of Justice ever receive any money from Jeffrey Epstein is a state or any of its business entities?

>> My knowledge, no.

>> To your personal knowledge, you're saying no. But is it possible that he did?

>> I don't know.

>> Did any other law enforcement agents that to your knowledge?

>> I don't believe so, but I don't know.

>> But you don't know.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Representative Walking.

>> Thank you, Mr. Andy. I want to go back to compensation. So, when you started working for Mr. Epstein, what was your compensation?

>> It was an annual salary.

>> You're going to roughly the amounts or was it hourly?

>> When I started it was around I want to say 450 44 400 or so.

>> $450,000 a year.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. And did you in addition to that receive any kind of bonus compensation or incentive structure?

>> I don't I don't recall on a year-to-year basis. I I I um I when I when I went back to think about it, what I remember at the beginning was about $450,000.

>> And that salary, I presume, increased over time over the course of 23 years.

>> It did.

>> Okay. And from the time that you were hired until Epstein's death, could you tell us roughly ballpark how much you were paid?

>> total ballpark between 27 and $30 million for 23 years roughly comes out to about a million a year.

>> Okay. And there's been reference already to one loan you received from Mr. Epste.

>> It was a series of loans but not one.

>> How many?

>> I it total I think 70 seven million I believe that's

>> seven million. And and what was the purpose of of the loans? Why did you need the loans? Why did he give you the funds?

>> Um ultimately the idea was that I was going to do investing on my loans.

>> Did you end up doing investing?

>> I invested in one thing.

>> What did you do with the rest $7 million?

>> I wound up using it.

>> You spent it.

>> Spent it. Yes. Okay.

>> And can you give us roughly the years that you received these loans?

>> 13 to 2013 to 2018.

>> So $7 million in five years. You made some minimal investment and you spent the rest. I mean, what did you spend it on?

>> I support a lot of people in my household. I support both mothers uh all of their health expenses. support my sister-in-law who's got who's got a granddaughter that she also takes care of. I support her as well. Um, I had

>> you needed the money. You needed all of it.

>> I used the money.

>> And how many of these loans or how much of the total loan amount was ultimately forgiven by Mr. Epste?

>> Um before we get there, you should know that I I've been paying interest all the way through until the time that he died.

>> Interest on these

>> That's actually one of my next questions. So, so why don't you

>> So, uh, and and the answer to your question is that according to the estate plan, um, all of the loans are to be forgiven

>> upon his death or when the state when the estate is

>> um, well, right now it's up in the air because there has to be enough money in the estate to cover it.

>> Okay.

>> Did Did FC ever pay you for anything beyond the legal services you've described here today?

>> No, he never did.

>> Did he give you anything else of value? Gifts, real estate. We already talked about the IVF. Anything else?

>> He helped me purchase a house. The first time that money was paid back. Um the second time he helped me purchase a home um by putting a uh by purchasing my my p my home in New Jersey. um putting go into contract the home in New Jersey.

>> Did he ever make any payments directly to your wife or other family members?

>> Um as part of the the discussion that we were just having. Yes.

>> As part of this

>> as part of this money

>> 7 million. Some of that 7 million went directly to your wife.

>> The house for the house.

>> Ah for the house.

>> Um and you were asked earlier share the IVF treatment funding.

>> Oh yes. I'm sorry. Yes. Okay.

>> that's definitely your gut.

>> I don't think you gave an amount roughly in terms of what he paid for the IVM treatment.

>> It's five times. I know. I know. I I recall that at the time the treatments the the medical portion of the treatments were something like $10,000. And there were there was also um hormones that required to be purchased as well. I don't remember what they cost.

>> Okay. So 10,000 times five is what you remember.

>> I briefly

>> thank you.

>> We're we're gonna our our our time here is is done. But I just one thing just to put into the record and just want to just be clear.

>> Yes.

>> It's our it's our committee's opinion and understanding that within the subpoena that the up state uh has to actually provide us documents. There actually two sections section 15 and section 16. But we have not received those documents. Now the majority may have directly dismissed uh those those sections with all of you directly. We understand that perhaps the majority feels that the the estate has been fully responsive to the subpoena. But it's our understanding that we are still waiting for sections 15 and 16 in the subpoena and we it the minority still wants access to those documents. We believe that they're import. I want to make sure I say that for the record that we don't believe the subpoena has actually been fully complied with yet.

>> Thank you. I I suggest congressman that you talk to the majority because they know the answer to the the question. We are awaiting instruction from the majority on those two sections. We are prepared to respond to them fully. We have responded fully to every request from the majority and the minority. We are awaiting instruction from the majority which has been promised to us and not yet delivered.

>> Okay. Well, we're we look forward to the majority providing their response when we get those those final documents. Thank you. We'll burn. We will go back on the record. Chairman Homer,

>> thank you. I have a couple of questions. You had mentioned earlier you in your legal capacity helped uh work some deals on stock transactions. Do you know anything about how he determined his investment strategy? Maybe not necessarily just with stocks, but with real estate. Did he just come to you or did he or in in conversations, did he say how he decided to purchase this property in in uh Europe or this property in the United States? I mean, it just it's strange to me that a guy that went from being a substitute teacher to advising the richest and most powerful people in the world on their finances and and taxes. Do do you know of or recall any conversations he had about how he determined which investments he would make?

>> No. Jeffrey was a Jeffrey Epstein was somebody who made all of the decisions he made on his own without he would consult individual people um like for his attorneys he pulled pretty much every time he had an issue all the issues that were working on a project he would ask them questions specific questions that he wanted answers to but then he would go out and make his own decisions. He never discussed strategies. In fact, um that was decidedly not something that he ever wanted to hear from me about. Um and not something he ever discussed with me. I would take direction after decisions were made, after conversations he had with his clients, directly with his clients. I would take direction after that fact and not be part of their kind of um thought processes to get there. So, so the answer to your question is no.

>> Okay. So you had mentioned he consulted with other people. Do you know which other people he consulted with? Did he ever say Bill Gates told me to buy Microsoft expensive split or anything like that?

>> This is over a long period of time and there's not a conversation that I would say stood out in my mind where that's where he got the information for something. Most people who who interacted with him,

>> it's my impression that they thought he was very very smart,

>> right?

>> They thought he knew a lot of stuff that he was very knowledgeable about tax law, rarely fairly knowledgeable about estate planning and people and currencies and people went to him for advice.

>> Do do you did he just pick that up on his own? I mean, he obviously didn't study it in in school.

>> I I don't know.

>> You don't know?

>> But I know that he worked at Bear Sterns for a period of time. um and did as I understand it um because that's it's all kind of anecdotal to me.

>> Um was learned option trading or or became very very successful at option trading there at a time when option trading wasn't such a

>> right

>> a well-known thing,

>> right?

>> Um so he had he had a a head for this stuff.

>> Okay.

>> At least that's the that's the understanding that I have. And I don't think I don't think

>> pretty sophisticated and you're on a time clock there like Miss Pelosi's the most recent uh offender of my opinion of stock trading. That's a big issue in Congress and Pelosi does stock options and most people in Congress don't know what stock options are. But uh the the concern about members in Congress or I would include Epstein trading options is you almost have to have a great deal of confidence that that stock's going to move in one direction or the other very soon. And that's where a lot of obviously insiders trade neaked options and things like that. You don't ever recall Epstein saying, "I'm I'm purchasing this stock option because I know it's fixing to crash in

>> a week."

>> No, I'm sorry. That's not the thing that he that's not something he would ever discuss with me.

>> You you had mentioned you set up a bunch of the the LLC's and I understand what you're saying to protect liability and things like that. Did he ever say why he needed to have so many LLC's to protect for for liability?

>> I I don't think he I I one, the answer to your question is no. There was never a conversation, I need LLC's to protect liability.

>> It was just it was for the clients that he had, for example, like Wexner had a bunch of LLC's, a bunch of corporations set up,

>> and that was it was just considered that's what you do. You have a new business, you you set up a company for it. You have a new asset like a plane, you set up a company for it. never appeared to me to be anything other than a legitimate reason to to set up an entity. And for somebody who has a lot of money and a lot of assets and a lot of business ventures, there's going if you're setting up separate entities for each, there's just going to be a lot of them. I don't it was never meant to be a kind of a veilent and and the truth of the matter is that that anybody who interacted with any of these entities always knew that it was him that they were interactoring with or at least my understanding was to my recollection they knew that they were interacting with him as the beneficial owner of the entity. The banks did certainly after 911 the banks definitely knew

>> that it was him.

>> How many LLC's would you estimate Epstein has?

>> I don't think I I don't think I could tell you that

>> more than 50.

>> I maybe I don't know. I don't know.

>> Some people would suspect he had a lot of LLC's, you know, every property was a different LLC's to protect himself from liability. And this is a guy that now we know and you say you didn't know at the time but was, you know, potentially abusing women, maybe underage women and and uh obviously that would be a an obvious reason to to form a LLC on each separate property.

>> You could respond to that if you like. I don't I I don't think that really works.

>> Okay.

>> Because it's a personal tor. If he engages in a personal court for which he is civily liable, it doesn't matter which entity that that hap that own the property that it happened on, he's gonna go after him for engaging in the personal court.

>> Just a couple of questions.

>> He plead guilty in 2007 and received 18 month sentence. Um, you wrote a letter for his uh plea for a new sentence, but but you wrote part of the letter. Who were his attorneys that represented him during that time?

>> It's it's a it's a while ago and I and I gave you a list and I and I'll list them again.

>> Did you know them? Did you recommend them or

>> No, they came they were they were in place and and newly ones came into place.

>> Did they predated you? You've obviously been there for close to 20 years.

>> No, but the whole But I I don't know that they predated me. I don't I I don't know. Um I know that they were there.

>> Um

>> you said there were three lawyers and there were two lawyers and then you were lawyer.

>> Yeah.

>> At that in 2007, were there was it just you or were there two or three

>> 2007? I think um it was just I think Jeff was no longer associated with him. So, it was just me. Uh, and and I think the other the other attorney that was handling it,

>> were you involved in whatever the situation he had that allowed him to leave jail six days a week for 12 hours a day?

>> That would have been um his his defense team, Jack.

>> I mean, not a lot of people get to go to jail for 18 months, only serve 13, and get out 12 hours a day, six days a week.

>> So, my understanding, and again, this is not something I do.

>> Sure. But my understanding at the time,

>> yes, but it's but you know,

>> you know, criminal defense versus transactional work on a on a stock purchase agreement, they're different things.

>> Oh, wait, you were going to explain.

>> I am going to explain. Um my understanding um from the defense lawyers was that they were asking and they they said it I said it in response to I think claims even by even by the assistant US attorney that they were that this was not appropriate and my understanding from the defense lawyers is they requested and received only that which any other similarly situated person in jail would be entitled to at the time. That's that was my understanding. Um, and that's

>> Palm Beach County had a very interesting system for work release. Okay, that's just something that I think the American people are like that's kind of strange. But um, moving on, this morning there was a CBS news article that published uh that you I'll repeat it. Ind recently settled a lawsuit accusing of facilitating sham marriages in which foreignb born victims married Americans whom Epstein abused for immigration purposes. Can you tell us anything about the uh the settlement? Who was it with?

>> Um this settlement was in this uh it was a a fuditive class action lawsuit that and the settlement um was by um the estate as well as us. It was upwards of $35 million to be paid to those who were abused by Mr.

>> How many plaintiffs were there? Can you tell us that?

>> How many

>> how many plaintiffs?

>> Um there was one initially that plaintiff was dismissed out of the case another plaintiff came on and then the second plaintiff after that came up.

>> Is this settlement public or is it private?

>> It's I mean I believe that they filed a um uh notice of the settlement in the court and I think the documents

>> the allegations underlying the

>> can and I just make one thing clear because he about the number of plaintiffs so that's the named plaintiffs but it's a class action so it's supposedly on behalf of some unknown number

>> right and that class hasn't been certified

>> what were the allegations underlying the claim

>> I I would refer you to the document itself But in substance, it seemed to me that what was being said was that in in providing accounting services and in providing legal services that we did for Mr. Epstein that we facilitated his conduct of um a sex trafficking enterprise. So, it seems that there were foreignb born women that um their visa was going to expire and they were going to have to leave or they were going to be overstaining their visa and the the scheme was to get the woman to marry an American. I mean, there's a lot of documentation associated with that and the allegations that you um and Khan facilitated the underlying documents for that. Is that what the allegations were?

>> I I don't think that's I don't think that's accurate. And again, I I tell you to go look read please read the complaints to see what they were. Um and and and again I can tell you that I I never arranged I never facilitated. I didn't even know about the merit.

>> What's your properties?

>> What's that?

>> What's your relationship with OSA properties?

>> Um I don't have a direct relationship with OSA. I don't have any relationship with OA propert.

>> Did you ever do any legal work associated with those properties? For example, creating leases for individuals that were living there.

>> I obtained a lease from those properties. I

>> tenant of 301 East 66 Street

>> at one point. I was a tenant. Yes.

>> Okay. Um I'll ask the rest of my questions later. Thank you. Thank you,

>> Mr. And we appreciate your patience. We're going to be jumping around. Obviously, we have the minority and majority asking questions and we would would like to avoid repeat questions, but I want to follow up first on Chairman Comr's questions as it related to the LLC. From your testimony, it sounds like a lot of the time when Mr. FC would solicit opinions. He would it be fair to say he already had his mind up of how he would want to proceed whether it was a particular transaction or the creation of an entity?

>> I don't know that that's true or not true and it would I I think it would depend on on each circumstance.

>> Did Mr. Epstein ever create LLC's or any other entities himself and then later inform you?

>> I have no recollection of him ever doing.

>> Can I ask a question? Did you ever create LLC's for people that were employees of Epstein?

>> Did I ever create an LLC for people that were employees of Epstein? There was an LLC called Linen Jojo LLC. That was an LLC that acquired a home that Lin and Jojo um who were staff members of his resided in. Um, I believe I had something to do with the creation of I don't know if I actually did it or or if there was a corporate service company that did it, but I believe I had something to do with creating that the entity that owned that house.

>> Is that the only LLC that was created?

>> Um, I think if that's an LLC, um, I I think HBRK was an LLC that for Rich Colin,

>> it seems the post 2009 scheme was to entrap women and create a complicated financial, legal, emotional u web that they couldn't get out of. And there's allegations that you created LLC's for some of those women, which then uh Have you ever operated someone's LLC without their knowledge?

>> Well, can I address this this idea of this this scheme? I know nothing about a scheme. It was never if I was asked to form an LLC, I formed an LLC. Um, and if if I was asked to form an LLC, um, I would have been told like in the case of Jojo L, this is for the purchase of a house and I would have been told this is for the purchase of a house. Now,

>> would it surprise him to know that Epstein was operating LLC's for people that he ostensively employed regard their knowledge?

>> Yes, that would surprise me.

>> And it would you agree that it would be illegal to do things like file taxes and operate that LLC without the individual's knowledge. And if that person then asked for information surrounding that, withholding that would also be uh problematic.

>> I before I I wouldn't want to express an opinion on something like that unless I actually saw what you're talking.

>> During our previous hour, we talked about whether Epste may have been tipped off to a s a search warrant at his residence. You had said uh that you did not know. Is that a fair characterization of your testimony?

>> That's a fair characterization of my testimony.

>> Do you think he was tipped off?

>> I I really don't know.

>> Did you understand, Mr. Epstein, to have close relationships with government officials in southern Florida?

>> No.

>> Did Jeffrey Epstein ever inform or represent to you that he was working with any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States?

>> No.

>> Did Gla Maxwell ever inform or represent to you that she was working with any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States?

>> No.

>> During your relationship, did you ever suspect Epstein or Maxwell of being affiliated with any intelligence agency?

>> I never I never suspected either of them. No.

>> At any time, have you had any affiliation with any intelligence agency?

>> No.

>> You've never did Did you Barack live at 301 East 666 Street while you were there?

>> I recall, though I'm not 100% certain, but I recall that Ahood Barack may have stayed at an apartment in 301 East 66th Street. Um, there were several apartments there that guests would come into town, people that he knew that he would make available for people to stay at for a short period of time. It is possible and I'm not 100% certain that Ahood Barack did in fact stay at the apartment at one time or another.

>> Would it surprise you to know the property records show that I Brock's wife lives there from 2019 to today?

>> It would surprise me. Yes.

>> Okay.

>> And just because EU Barack was brought up, did you have any relationship with that individual?

>> Um I believe that one, you know, on one of those occasions when I was visiting Epstein, sorry, not one, I think, two, maybe three, but a limited number of occasions when I was doing work at at Epstein when I was uh doing going over status or going over an assignment with him in his dining room on the ground floor of of his townhouse. uh Barack had come to the townhouse or I was just leaving and I believe I had you know said hello or I was introduced once maybe or twice.

>> What was your understanding of Mr. Barack's relationship with Mr. Ebs?

>> Um I didn't really have an understanding of their relationship. Uh I knew that there was a relationship but I didn't really have an understanding about what it was.

>> Did you ever have any understanding that Mr. Eh Barack uh had ties to intelligence.

>> Uh from what you know as a general matter what what one reads in the news I thought as a former prime minister of of Israel probably I I didn't didn't know more than that. And outside of Mr. Eer Barack is there anyone that you know of affiliated with Mr. or Epstein or Maxwell that you suspected to have ties to intelligence?

>> None. No, the answer is no.

>> And again, for the record, you have never had any relationship with any intelligence service.

>> I have not. No.

>> You have never visited CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia?

>> No.

>> During the previous hour, the minority uh asked you questions related to your role as Mr. Epstein's attorney. I believe that they discussed at length the compensation structure. I just want to focus on your hiring and again recognizing and I'll probably make you repeat yourself.

>> Okay.

>> Uh is our understanding that you were working with this partner on Mr. Epste's accounts and subsequent to that you and that partner went to JFC and company. Is that a fair characterization?

>> No, it didn't happen that way.

>> Okay.

>> I worked at a I worked first as a parallegal, then as a clerk and then as a um an an associate at a law firm by the name of Golden Wel, at which that partner was a partner at by the time he left. He left Golden Lockell before I left Golden Wel. after he left Golden Wattel, I then went to Greenberg Targ for about a year or so. Um, and when I was at Greenberg Targ for about a year, I received a call from that partner um to consider come working for him with him um for uh for representing Mr. Epsy.

>> And initially, what was your compensation for Mr. Repsy with Mr.

>> It's it's long time ago, but I believe it was around 450 450,000.

>> What were you making at the law firm prior to moving to working with Mr.

>> A little bit less than that, but um probably in the 300s. I I don't It's a guess. It's It's I don't recall 100%, but it was less.

>> How were you compensated by Mr. Abs?

>> Well, it depended if I was working as a an employee like I was for JF and company when I was compensated directly by the company JFing company. When I was working for the company New York Strategy Group, New York Strategy Group would get paid by Epstein and then New York Strategy Group would pay me whatever it paid me at the time. Uh and when I was working with my own law firm, um I received the funds directly from Epstein or Epstein or or it could have been one of his entities like um um Southern Trust Company.

>> And you mentioned previously that you started around 450,000 a year.

>> Yeah. What was your compensation by the time that you had you finished representing Mr. Epstein during his life?

>> My last compensation that I received for him before he died was or maybe it was just after he died. He was pursuing an employment agreement that he signed was uh the payment was $200 million. Sorry, $2 million, not two $2 million. Sorry.

>> Did you find your compensation to keep to be commensurate with your uh experience?

>> I did. I remember I so I went to Cornell Law School. I had a background in corporate insecurities law. I worked for an ML1 100 law firm. I was on call 247 for seven days a week. Um and I was expected to get things done very quickly and very carefully. Uh transactions were very complicated. They involved high dollar amounts. So given and and given all of that, yes, I believe I was compensated commensurate with my experience and with the skill level that I exercised.

>> Did you receive equity interests as part of your compensation?

>> No.

>> Did you ever receive gifts outside of your base pay?

>> Um, I received loans as we've discussed and I received um he helped me purchase my house in New Jersey which ultimately got paid back. Uh, and then when I went to purchase the house in Florida, he

um agreed to purchase my house in New Jersey on a deferred basis, gave me the money in advance um which was used then to purchase the house in in Florida.

Uh and that ultimately because he died that never came to pass and according to the estate plans um that contractors was was basically null.

Um obviously if there's no money in the estate that there will be an accounting that has to h happen but >> plus the IVF treatment. >> What's that? >> Plus the IVF treatment. >> Oh plus the IVF treatment. Sorry. Yes.

Um I that was me. Yes. >> And during the minorities hour I recognize that they talked to you at length about the loan. Was the 7 million provided at one time or was it >> overtime? >> Okay. >> And between 2013 and 2017 is what I believe you testify to. >> 17 or 18. >> And did you approach Mr. reps and ask him for these loans. >> I did. Yes. >> What did that look like? >> I told him that I' I'd like some more money and I'd like to do it. Uh, you know, I was thinking about doing investments and maybe tell me, okay, I'll loan you this now. >> And it was it was very definitely a loan. >> And Chairman Comr had discussed it in Mr. Absin's investments. Did he have an opinion on the specific investment that you were looking to make? >> No, he never discussed investments.

Jeff, >> did you receive any other renumeration we did not cover? >> I don't think I did. That's I don't recall anything.

In your in performing your roles and responsibilities for Mr. Epstein, I'm going to ask you if you communicate with the following individuals. >> Okay. >> First, Mr. Richard Khan. >> Yes. >> Mr. Harry Beller. >> Yes. >> Miss Leslie Gra. >> Yes. >> Miss Sarah Kellen. Yes, >> Miss Nadia Maren Kova. >> Yes, >> Miss Karina Shuliaak. >> Yes, >> Miss Bella Klene. >> Yes, >> Mr. or um Emad Hana. >> Yes.

For the um in regards to all of these individuals, how would you typically communicate with them? >> Um sometimes personally um for example, EMAD and EMAD at one point EMA and and Rich Khan and Bella and I were in the same office on in New York City. Um, Harry too if I if Harry Beller um and I believe Leslie was also there. >> And is that the 301 address? >> No. Um, originally there was an address on Madison Avenue and then there were there was an address uh when Epstein was in jail. um means each of us moved to different offices uh in 301 East 666 Street for a period of time and then after he came out of jail each of us moved to offices in a executive office space on Lexington Avenue.

>> What was Mr. Khan's role? >> He was an accountant. I don't know if he actually had an official title, but I I I have heard him referred to as a CFO, but I don't know if he actually had a an official title. Um, sorry. >> How closely did you work with Mr. Khan? >> We had offices near each other. We talked about um if there was a specific job that required um me telling him something or him telling me something, we communicated that way, but you know, we weren't we weren't close. Uh I think um there there's at least a few occasions where we socialized. I think he went to my kids mitzvah and I think when one of the office people was leaving we had a dinner we went to together. That was the relationship.

>> What role did Harry Beller play? Harry Beller was uh as I understand it a bookkeeper >> and >> and he was in the accounting department. Again, my my role was more legal accounting. So, the specifics of what was done in the accounting department was not something that I I knew knew as much about. >> But you mentioned Mr. Khan. You'd worked in close proximity to him. Was that true for Mr. Beller as well? >> Mr. Beller worked in the same office again, not in the same office office, but in the same floor. We had we had offices on the same floor. So So we saw each other from time to time. I didn't sit with him, but if he had a question about something, I would answer a question. I had a question about something and I can't tell you specifically what the question would be about. I would ask him a question. >> Outside of work, did you socialize with Mr. Beller? I I'm I'm trying to remember if Mr. Beller was invited to my and attended my daughter's he may have, but other than that, no.

>> What was Bella Klein's role? >> She was also in the accounting office, also a bookkeeper, but the specifics of what her job was, I I don't know. >> Did you socialize with Miss Klein? Also, uh I went to one wedding with her. Um and I believe she was invited to the bot his bachelor.

>> What about Emad? Anna. >> Emad Hannah. >> He was a a purchasing person. I purchased a lot of equipment and tools, heavy heavy machinery, particularly for the um if I recall for the for the island, Little St. chains when there was a lot of construction projects going on there. >> Did you socialize with him? >> He may have gone to to the button, so I don't remember. I think he did.

>> While working with these individuals, did you ever discuss anything related to Mr. Epstein's personal life? >> No.

During litigation with JP Morgan, there's been documents that have shown uh JP Morgan staff making comments that tend to show there they may have had some awareness into Mr. Epstein's personal life. One in particular was referencing him hanging out with Miley Cyrus. Is it your testimony today that you do not recall ever having any conversations with the people you worked with that related to Mr. Epstein's affinity with young women or girls? My rec my recollection is I never had a conversation with anybody um in the accounting office about uh Epstein's affinity for younger girls. They don't know that he had an affinity for younger girls. I don't recall ever having any kind of conversation like >> had a name artiscardis was a an immigration lawyer. >> What degree in frequency did you interact with him? >> I interacted with him a number of times. >> Uh how many separate instances are we talking a dozen? >> Maybe a dozen maybe a little bit more. Was that surrounding um immigration cases for needing assistance or other group other other individuals? >> Um assistance it may have been um for like some of the island managers were were from from like South Africa may have been for them. Um so that would have been um two a couple from South Africa. Um, >> what percent of the immigration cases that you worked on were young, attractive women? >> I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment on attractive >> women between the ages of 15 and 30. >> I would say um >> that's a that's a wide range. I must qualifies for that range. I I don't recall there being any underage women ever that I that I did work for. >> How many women between the ages of 18 and 30 did you work with Artemis to facilitate immigration paperwork >> range? I think the the >> less than 10 more than 20 >> first can think the verb facilitate immigration paperwork to the extent that I did anything it was to look over a document or to add a request from a person to provide a document um but I wasn't facilitating immigration that's that's not an appropriate word I'm sorry >> if artis asks you for documents to beef up an immigration application. I would use the word facilitate, but okay. >> Just to be clear, that wasn't a question, right? So, he's not going to answer, but I think he would have taken issue with that statement. >> Yes. >> Keep your voice up. >> Keep your voice. >> Keep my voice up. Yes. Sorry.

>> Continuing on the the list I previously brought up, Leslie Grath, what was her role? >> She was Mr. Epstein's assistant um for a while when he was in jail. She also helped me with some of my legal work. >> Can you elaborate on that legal work? >> Um, nothing sticks out in my in my in my head today, but to the extent I needed documents copied or or um if I wanted to send an email to somebody, um, I would give her I would tell her to please send an email to somebody. >> So, you're just referring to administrative work, >> correct? Did you socialize with Miss Grath outside of work? Uh >> Miss Grath also was invited to my my uh kids spot mitzvah and I believe that Miss Gra went to that dinner, that one dinner um with when one of the workers in my office was leaving. U but beyond that, no. So that's that's the extent of my socialization.

>> Who is Sarah Kellen? Sarah Kellen um to my knowledge was one of Jeffrey Epstein's assistants. >> And what were your interactions with Miss Kellen? >> Um from time to time Sarah Kellen would relate a request. Nothing comes to my mind about what request that that Jeffree had relating to some common legal legal issue. Um Sarah Kellen also, as I understand it, was doing um interior design work for Epstein. Epstein had a lot of properties as we know uh and was constantly um constantly redecorating and and and changing them and and Sarah was doing a lot of the procuring uh um and for the decorating that he was doing on those properties. And I believe the the entity that she did it through was an entity s business was Sarah SLK SLK Designs I think is some something like that it was called. >> Did you create that entity? >> I don't recall but it is possible. >> Did you socialize with Miss Kellen outside of work? >> No.

>> Who is Karina Shuliak? I have come to to know Karina ultimately as somebody who was a a girlfriend of Mr. Epstein. Uh but I did not have that realization until I want to say 2015 2016 around there. >> And we discussed her in the context of one of the alleged sham marriages. I I was not aware that it was a sham marriage. Still not sure that it's a sham marriage, but um but she was one of the people that was married. Yes. >> But you came to learn that Mr. Epstein had a romantic relationship with Karita after this marriage. >> So the word romantic is for me is is is kind of loaded. I understood her to be his girlfriend. whatever that meant. And I didn't know what that meant. I don't know what kind of what his actual intimate relationship with her was. >> Did you socialize with Miss Juliaak outside of your official role? >> No.

>> We talked about Miss Grath, Miss Kellen, and Miss Juliaak. You understood all them to be assistants of Mr. Epstein. Is that right? >> Um, say it again. Miss Grath, Miss Kellen, and Miss Julia, >> you're right. >> Um, yes. And and Sarah, as I as I explained, Sarah also did decorating and design work for >> was Nadia Marsonova an assistant. To the extent that I to the same extent that I don't know what that meant, I understood at some point I became aware that Nadia was a girlfriend of his of Epstein's but she was also an assistant. >> When did you meet Nadia Marson Kov? >> If you had something to show me, I I could tell you, but I I don't I don't recall when I met her. You may not recall when you met her, but do you know how old she may have been when you met her? >> She was well above age. Well above the age of 18. I I guess I should take this point. I have heard stories referred to her as a as a a child sex slave or something like that. And that I will I will tell you that that I do not believe that to be true. I don't think that was true. And as part of the defense council's kind of uh disclosures to to federal federal and state governments in connection with the FC investigation, they made it clear that that wasn't true.

In his 2019 indictment, um you're familiar with the allegations. If you if you have a specific allegation, he was accused of engaging in sex trafficking, human trafficking. If you were on the jury and that had gone to trial, would you would you vote to convict him given all of your information you have? >> I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question? >> You were on the jury and gone to trial. >> I'm sorry. For which for which >> for 2002 2005 the indictment that you probably have read. If that went to trial and you were on a jury would you have been in favor of convicting him for the charges with which he was alleged to have committed? >> Based upon what I knew then the answer would have been no. >> What about now? >> I don't know.

>> $750 million been paid in settlements. Close. And You don't know whether >> 750 million >> working America Bank America >> I mean so okay that's helpful >> I don't know

>> Mr. Ind I I want to return back to I characterize those women as assistants >> what would you and I'm g I'm about to ask more questions related to Mr. I've seen various assistants. >> Okay. >> Do you disagree with the committee's characterization and some of these women as as assistants? >> To the extent that I that I knew what their role was, they appeared to me to be assistants. They appeared to be taking messages for him, making travel plans for him, um running errands for him. So, they appeared to me to be assistants.

>> In the time that you worked for Mr. I've seen roughly how many assistants did he have? I I I don't I don't I don't know. I 10 10 15 guess. I I I don't know. We could go through them if you want. As his corporate attorney, did you advise him on employment employment matters related to their hiring? >> Typically, no. >> Were all of his assistants female >> office assistants? I would say yes, but he did employ people um to assist him with like architectural stuff. I can think of one person that was at least one person that was a man. His chefs were uh largely men. Um house household staff were there were there were men as well as women. So I think the answer is no. uh personal assistance in the in the in the sense of you know taking messages and getting coffee uh and things like that. I would say yes except that there was overlap with household functions like you know bringing meals and things like that.

>> What percent of the women lived at 301 East 66th Street? >> I don't know. Your office was there for a while and you don't know what percent of his assistants lived at 301 East 66. >> So my office was in one apartment in a 150 unit building. I was not in the accounting office. I to the extent that that Abstein provided apartments to those people that's not something I did. So the answer is no. >> The answer is you don't know. >> Yeah. Right. The answer is I don't. Well, I was answering your other question. The answer is I don't know. Correct.

>> Did you find it suspicious that his personal assistants were women? >> No. In my experience, um there and my exposure to other men in in the business world, oftentimes the assistants were women. Even in the lawyers, the assistants were women. >> You didn't find it suspicious that the guy that just went to prison for prostitution of a minor had seven different female assistants and had a very strange situation surrounding all of them. That sound suspicious? >> That's a lot to unpack there. So, this >> the guy that just went to prison for >> So, if I can answer the question, I'd like to answer the question. The guy just went to the went to prison was registered as a sex offender. He was under intense scrutiny. So no, I didn't think that if he had women also he was under intense scrutiny and there was publicity about him. So no, I never made the assumption that women were working for him or engaged in a sexual relationship with him. And I never and I never believed that he would be engaging in conduct which with all the scrutiny on him could put him back in the place where he said he was never going to go to.

How were these assistants compensated? >> I assume they were paid by check or or you know either as as independent contractors or as salaried employees or various entities. >> To be clear, did you ever provide cash payments to Epstein's assistance? method, I would call them. >> Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein giving cash to his assistants for their personal payment? The answer is no. Not that I recall. Is it possible that I was in a room where he handed cash to them in order to pay tip somebody who showed up or to pay for a particular thing that he asked them to get? That's possible. I don't have a specific recollection, but it's certainly possible.

>> Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein pay women for massages? >> No.

During the previous hour, I believe you testified that you visited Zoro Ranch. Is that correct? >> That's correct. >> And how many times did you visit Zoro Zoro Ranch? >> Two or three times. >> What were the nature of your visits to the ranch? >> Um, usually if I'm visiting a property and and I believe in this instance it had to do with some kind of other construction project taking place taking place on property. Oh, and there was one other time now that I'm thinking about it. Um, when my family and I took a vacation out in New Mexico. Um, Epstein wasn't there at the time, but my family and I visited the ranch just to see it.

>> Did you visit the Palm Beach residence? >> I did. >> How many times did you visit that residence? Well, after he was in jail, when I went to see him in jail, I actually stayed at the Palm Beach residence in one of the rooms, one of the bedrooms. >> And how long did you reside at that residence? >> I didn't reside at the residence. I stayed in the residence. Um, when I would go visit him, I would go there for a day, stay overnight, then come back to to New York, New Jersey.

Did you visit his residence in Paris? >> I visited the residence in Paris once um when I was on a a family trip when he wasn't there. Um think once when he was there for I don't remember it was a business related trip and I don't remember the nature of the business. It was quite some time ago. >> Was Mr. Epstein present? >> He was there. Yes. >> Who else was present? >> Valson um his ballet and one personal assistant. I don't remember >> but it was somebody who was his personal assistant at the time. >> Recognizing that you just testified you don't recall why you visited Paris with Mr. Rapsy. Is it possible that it may have been related to meeting with Jean Luke Bernell? >> No. >> And for the record, do you know John Luke Bernell? >> I I did interact with John Luke Brunell on one on probably a handful of occasions. Yes.

>> What were the nature of your interactions with Mr. Bernell? >> Um Brunell had had traveled to the office one one or two times. Um um I understand that he and Epstein were social acquaintances. So when I was visiting Epstein for whatever reasons I was visiting Epstein, I would see him. Um um as it relates to MC Squared had some kind of a a payroll tax issue if I recall. And in connection with that payroll tax issue, there was some kind of a letter of credit that was required for it. and I interacted I think with him and with his his staff. I think it was an accountant or controller um with respect to that um issue and and Epstein providing security for the letter of credit. >> Did you socialize with Mr. Brunell outside of >> I did not socialize with Mr. outside >> and you mentioned >> period not outside it. I didn't socialize it. >> You you mentioned uh the entity and I do not have my notes in front of me but what was that entity? >> MC Squared.

>> MC Squared was a modeling agency. Uh and to my knowledge was a legitimate modeling agency with with bookers and employees. Um and so that was that was an agency that I deleted as a principal of. >> Did you have any role in organizing that modeling in uh agency? >> I recall that I did the the the I don't know if it was the corporation or the LLC, the incorporation work or had something to do with the incorporation work. >> What was Mr. Epstein's role in with the agency? I don't know that he had a a a role. I don't know that he was a I'm pretty sure he wasn't a a principal of MC Squares. >> During the time that you knew Mr. Epstein, did he ever represent himself to be a talent scout for models? >> Not in my presence. No. >> Did you ever subsequently learn that he represented himself to be a Victoria Secret model scout >> through allegations in in legal papers? >> What did you think of those allegations?

didn't know whether as far as the resident or the properties that Mr. Epstein owned that you said you visited and and correct me if I'm wrong. Palm Beach, Manhattan, New Mexico, and Paris. Did you have keys or security access to any of these properties? >> No. >> At any time, did you have office space inside any of these properties? >> No. >> Didn't you observe any massage tables? >> After he died, when we did a tour of the New York I think it was the co-executive, not Ra Colin. Uh, we did a tour of that property and I believe I saw a massage table there. >> So then, just for the record, can you be clear that before he died? >> Before he died, I did not see any massage tables. You never during your representation were you ever a part of uh any purchases of massage tables or equipment? >> No.

It's been reported and we've seen from the Epstein files transparency act that Mr. I've seen had weird taste in artwork and many of his properties had portrayed nudity. Did you notice any unusual artwork when you visited the properties? >> I saw, you know, there's the blue dress that everybody refers to in the press. I seen that in in the New York property in the control room where the where the security person was located. I've seen that in that room. Uh I remember seeing eyeballs, glass eyeballs. I forget which house that was in, but it was glass eyeballs. They was hung in a frame and hung up. Thought that was kind of an odd thing. I remember in the New York um the New York townhouse when you walked in on your way to go to the dining room, there was a a rope with big like an acrobatic woman dangling from the rope. So that that struck me as kind of an odd piece of art. Um, he also he had an American flag on the dining room table at some some point. I think that was art. I don't you know I don't know. >> Did you ever discuss any of those art uh choices with Mr. Epste? >> My relationship with Mr. Epste was not such where I would have a conversation but artistic tastes.

Real quick, have you heard the phrase, "If you can speak it, don't write it. And if you can wink it, don't speak it." >> No. >> Okay. It's a a DC phrase people always talk about. Not good. But you get the general gist. >> Think so. I mean, >> I think so. >> Okay. Uh Epstein has a very documented history of putting things in writing that people would generally not want put in writing that it seems intentional. It seems systematic even. Have you followed that at all? >> Do do you realize that the Epstein transparency act shows us all his emails and the way that he documents things really intentionally to create it seems like he's creating leverage. I mean, do you have any insight into that practice? >> I don't have any insight into that practice. I'd never seen his emails. >> Why would Why do you think he would document so much so many things that the people that he was communicating would clearly probably not want that stuff in writing? >> I I wouldn't speculate. I don't know.

To be clear on the artwork, did you ever see nude photos displayed at Mr. Abstein's properties? >> I've seen in inventorying the estate. I've seen the there's some there's naked paintings, naked women in paintings. Believe there was one there was a book of of of nudes, like a photographic book, one of those big kind of coffee table books. I saw something like that. Um, I think I think I'm trying to remember if it's only because I heard of it after the fact after he died. I don't think I saw anything else.

>> Did you ever travel on Mr. Epstein's plane? >> I've traveled on planes that were owned by Mr. Epste beneficially. Yes. How many times over the course of 23 years? Maybe one a year, maybe less than that, maybe a dozen. I'm not sure. But but it was it was not frequent. >> Was Mr. Epstein always present? Uh uh on every trip that I went, I think he was present with the exception of one when um I had um I'd gone to I'm not sure if it was DC or Boston with Mr. Epste on it. I'm sorry. I I had gone um either to Boston or or or DC with Mr. Epstein uh on a day when I had told him that I was celebrating my my anniversary uh with my wife and he asked me to go nevertheless uh and when we came back to Teeter for that trip he said I should take my wife to Atlantic City and take the plane. So that was the one time that I did not uh travel with him. >> What were the nature was it business related? You were always traveling on his plane. >> Every trip that I took with Mr. Epste was business relief on this plane. >> It's been alleged that Mr. Ebstein would use his pl or would conduct sex parties on his plane. You never witnessed or heard anything related to sex parties on his plane? >> I never witnessed any kind of sexual conduct on this plane when I was on his plane.

We're coming to the end of our hour, so I'm going to ask you some questions to close. Have you ever decline to provide legal services for legal or ethical reasons? >> No, I don't I don't I don't think that occasion came up. >> Have you ever declined to participate in a transaction for legal or ethical reasons? Um while I was employed with Epstein, Epstein um declined to participate in transactions that he thought were inappropriate for either legal reasons or that he thought could potentially be scams or frauds. Um so in that respect, yes. Personally, I never had occasion to make that call. >> Have you ever advised a client to not tell you something? No. >> Have you ever advised clients about human trafficking statutes? Um, in connection with it answer the question or sorry in in connection with the legal defense team. Um, the team and I certainly reviewed the sex trafficking stats,

>> Mr. Ind or your lawyers, you discussed this committee subpoena of documents of the Epsian State last hour with the ranking member. I believe it was stated that the subpoena is closed out except for items 15 and 16 in the subpoena schedule. Is that correct? >> 15 has subp parts A and B. So, one of them is closed out and one of them is not. I will enter the subpoena and schedule as majority exhibit 4. The subpoena is addressed to the estate of Jeffrey Epstein of Darren indict and Richard Khan and it was sent on August 25th of 2025. Item 15 and I will read it into the record. It requests all documents and communications to or from andor referring or or relating to the following individuals. A is numbers 1 through 92 defined by JuRay verse Maxwell. Plaintiff Virginia Dup Frey's fourth revised disclosure pursuant to the federal rules of civil procedure in the Southern District of New York on January 5th of 2024. And B, all presidents and vice presidents of the United States not otherwise listed in request 10A from January 1st, 1990 through August 10th, 19 or 2019. Uh number 16 says all documents and communications referring or relating to the following entities. A coq foundation B nees LLC c New York Strategy Group D J LLC E J Inc. and F LSJ LLC. My understanding is that the committee council discussed with the estate lawyers the need to further clarify items 15A and 16. I want to be very clear. The committee does not consider 15A or 16 to be closed out as additional clarification was sought by the estate. The committee intends to provide that clarification, but is first continuing its investigation and review of materials produced by banks and DOJ which relate to these requests and assist the committee's clarification. And again, to be clear, the estate communicated to us that item 15B is completely closed out and the estate possesses no additional documents responsive to that request. We can go off the record. We can go back on the record.

>> Good afternoon, Mr. Andek. >> Good afternoon. >> Are you familiar with the Florida Science Foundation? >> Um, yes, I know the Florida Science Foundation. Okay. Were you involved in setting it up? >> Um, the Florida Science Foundation is the um a trade name, for lack of a better term, of the COQ Foundation, which was an existing foundation that predated um Mr. Epstein's um conviction in 2008. Super. >> Was there a separate incorporation of the entity that subsequently was known as the Florida Science Foundation as you just explained it? >> I believe that initially um and I'm not sure why it was done, but um one of the Florida attorneys formed a separately Florida Science Foundation. Um but that I believe that one was never used. Um I believe the foundation that was in existence was the one that they used. >> Um and you don't have an understanding as to why the Florida Science Foundation was incorporated. >> Um as I'm sitting here today, I don't I I think somebody just did it quickly because they knew there was something going to be called the Florida Science Foundation. They didn't and I I don't think that they kind of got direction from anybody and they just did it. >> I can represent to you that I've seen um articles of incorporation for the Florida Science Foundation. Yeah. >> That were filed um on November 1st of 2007. Does that sound right to you? >> Sounds about right. Yes. >> Okay. And that to my chronological understanding was after Jeffrey Epstein was arrested and during his plea negotiations with the US attorney's office in Florida. Is that right? >> Um after November 2007 would have been after he was arrested. And what was the second part of the question? >> During his plea negotiations with the US attorney's office. >> I I think so. Yes. Um, to your understanding, was the foundation created whether in whole or in part to give Jeffrey Epstein a place to perform his work release? I think the answer to that question is I believe that Epstein wanted work release. I believe that he wanted during his work release to do the scientific work that he was doing. He was a a an avid supporter of of scientific research and academic research and I believe that that he wanted to continue that work um if he were to get work work release and so I I think in anticipation of that the I think it was a Florida law firm that I think it was a Florida entity the one that was incorporated was a Florida entity is that right? That is my understanding. >> I believe the Florida the Florida law firm just set it up um without kind of discussing that with with him in detail. Uh and then once it once the the conversation ensued further, I believe that it was determined that the the foundation that was already doing that kind of work like the CO Foundation was should be the foundation that's that's doing it in in Florida. Um >> I understand that the foundation had offices at 250 Australian Avenue in West Palm Beach. Is that accurate? I believe that sounds right. Yes. >> Were you ever present in those offices? >> I was in those offices. Um I wasn't I wasn't stationed in those offices. My my office was up north, but from time to time um when Epstein was on work release um and I would come down and have kind of the status conversation as to what's going on with the transactions that I've been working on. Um, it would be at that office. >> How often did that happen? >> I I don't recall sitting here today. >> More than 10. >> Is there four? Yeah, I mean that's that's probably true. >> Um, during any of those visits, did you see any women present in the offices? Um, I believe there was a personal assistant present. I don't remember which one. >> Did you ever become aware of Epstein sexually abusing women in those offices? I became aware I I'm not sure if the allegation happened after he died, but I became aware of the allegation after the fact uh that he did. >> Did any woman ever tell you that she had been sexually abused by Epstein while he was on work release? >> No. >> Um did any woman ever ask for your help in connection with sexual abuse by Epstein? >> No. And just the the idea that that that was taking place, I'm not saying it didn't, but it would have surprised me because when Epstein was on work release, there was a deputy sitting in the front desk and the office wasn't that big. So that would have surprised me if that was going up. >> When you say deputy, you mean law enforcement? >> Like a law enforcement a deputy sheriff?

Did you at any time ever tell any woman making allegations about Epstein not to communicate with law enforcement? >> I would never have told them not to communicate with law enforcement.

>> Did you visit Epstein in prison in Florida? >> I did. >> What was the reason for those visits? >> Uh the reasons for those visits is that while he was in jail, there were five properties. There were there was construction going on on properties. There were investments that were outstanding at the time. There were things going on that um required