FIF Podcast: OG Shallow

[Music] All right, all right. We're here with Shallow. This is Urban Artistry Funk and Focus Preservation Project, where we're documenting different artists' stories. Um, super happy to have Shallow here. Definitely someone that, you know, was a huge part of my upbringing in the dance. One of my first battles actually at Breaker's Delight. Definitely a lot of East Coast history here. Um, so I'm really excited to have you. Thanks for being here.

Appreciate it, man.

Yeah, no problem. So let's just get this thing going, man. I'm really curious. I got a lot of questions for you. I wanted to just start out off by just asking about, in general, what it was like growing up in Boston? You know, not even just with dance, just what, what your environment was like growing up out there?

Well, it was funny because, um, on every block, there was like a dancer, you know, and, um, in the city. And, you know, even though you were doing something, like, someone could have been doing something completely different on, on the next block, you know? And, uh, if you walk through the neighborhoods of Boston, there was, you would get called out every second, crazy, you know? So you had to be prepared. And, uh, there was a lot of talent shows, block parties, um, you know, festivals, stuff like that. That's where a lot of the battles happened too.

That's what's up. That's what's up. So, so when you were, when you were younger, like, at what point did you start getting into like street dance and popping? Like, how did that whole process happen?

It's funny. I, I, I, I went to Camp Massapog, which was like the Y camp. But I hung out with like the guys from my neighborhood that were like the top dancers. They were called the Robonauts. But, uh, there was one of them, I asked him to teach me and he says, "Don't you know why people got no rhythm?" You know what I mean? He's like, and he'd clown me. And, uh, but we were close because we played ball together and stuff. And, you know, so I ended up going to camp and, um, there was this kid in my cabin that was one of the top dancers from my neighborhood. His name was Karim Saunders. So they ended up having a talent show up at camp and, um, he said, "Yo, let's go in it." I said, "What will we do?" He goes, "Oh, we'll dance." You know, "We'll pop." And I said, "Well, I don't know how to do that." So he was like, "No, I'll show you. I'll show you the basics. Show me how to wave it through my arm, feel my body, and up." So we took broomsticks, we cut them, we painted them black, and we taped the ends with white tips so they look like, like canes, you know? And we wore top hats, you know what I mean? The black top hats. It, and we wore white gloves. And we went in the contest. So we went in it and we did our thing, you know what I mean? I mean, he was doing most of the stuff, but, uh, but we won and everybody was talking about us.

So two weeks later, um, you know, he told me to keep practicing. He gave me my first puppet strings. That's what we wore also. Wow. So he says, "Just keep practicing in the mirror and using these, you know, and practice on your angles and all this other stuff." And, uh, so he left. I was really upset, you know what I mean? Because we got really close. Yeah. So I stayed up there all summer and I started practicing really hard in the mirror every day for hours. And, um, and my first style was puppet style, actually, you know, the way you hit with your hands and stuff, you know? And, um, so I left. I left camp and I came back and I was a freshman in high school. So what happened was, um, they had a talent show called Upward Bound. And two of my best friends that I grew up with in my hometown back home, they popped a little bit too. But we went in it and the crowd went nuts. And, uh, we did the wave on the floor and the vibrations and all that, you know, the whole school stuff. Yeah. Crowd went nuts.

So, so we went to freshman school at Rindge and Latin in Cambridge. And, uh, everybody was like, "Oh, dance, dance, dance." But I wouldn't dance for anybody for two years. I didn't show anybody after that. I just practiced. I practiced at practice. And then there was this club I used to go to called Dance Factory. And, um, I used to get called out every weekend by different people because, you know, we didn't know each other, right? And, um, I, I just, I got better and better and better. And I never lost. I kept winning because I kept practicing, battling, you know? And, um, so that was basically it in the beginning. Yeah. And then, um, you know, we started rocking on the street for money. Like all the Floor Lords. This is where, before we were the Floor Lords, it was all the best dancers from different cities. Yeah. We used to meet up and just dance and make money. Yeah. We were all friends, but this is before we had a name. So finally, one of the guys, Cisco and Mike Madd, they said, "Yeah, let's form a group." And we became the Floor Lords because we were like the best from every city in Boston, you know?

And was that crew breakers and poppers? Yes. They were. Put, we were like 20 deep. We had Floor Lords one and two at one time, and we were probably about 30 of us. Wow. And, uh, but over the years, everybody's started breaking off, you know? Yeah. But, but for years, I mean, they're still together now. It's like the fifth chapter of Floor Lords, you know? It's like the nephews of the, the guys that started out with me.

That's crazy. That's so cool. So was there, um, was there at that time, was it like, you know, how in New York they called it Electric Boogie? Was there like, yeah, boogie stuff with this like, yeah, it was all because you were popping off, looking for the perfect beat. Bambata, Planet Rock. So a lot of that stuff was fast. Yeah. So you had to pop fast, you know what I mean? But there was guys that tried to imitate the West Coast from Soul Train and stuff. And I used to watch all that from the beginning when I was learning. But I grew up off of funk, just dancing in parties, doing two-step and all that, you know, all the old dances, you know? Yeah. They used to call it, "One, the white boy, when he used to do the two-step." And it was really a dance match. Then the whop and all that stuff. Right. So a lot of that was off funk. So you had to learn how to dance with a person, with a girl. And then, like, you know, when poppin' came back again with funk and all that, it was always just reminding yourself what you used to dance off of, the type of beats per minute, you know what I mean? Yeah. But, uh, yeah, but Electro was the first for us, you know? Because we had hip hop on the East Coast. Yeah. It was all the rap groups and stuff like that. UTFO, Run DMC, uh, Fat Boys, Houdini, um, LL, you know, and so on.

So the, the rhythm, the rhythm style was different from the West Coast. Yeah. Was, um, was popping like a mix of a lot of things? Like, where you guys were doing, was it like waves, glides, tuts, hits?

Yeah, I mean, we did wave, glides, tuts, vibrations, chicken. We weren't doing boogaloo back then. It was no boogaloo. Um, it was just like, you know, just do the shamrock when you hit side to side, kind of like the Michael Jackson thing you do and stuff like that. The moonwalk. We did glides. Yeah. We did a lot of glides, actually. Yeah.

Cause like, one thing I notice about like, you, Megatron, Domino, is like, you guys also had a lot of like dope blow-ups and like, like cool original glides and original waves. And like, was that like kind of the point? Were you guys trying to come up with stuff you hadn't seen before with each style?

Well, we used to practice a lot together for shows, but we also practiced by ourselves because we were like secretive with a lot of our moves. Like, because you never knew who you were going to battle, you know? Yeah. And we used to study each other to get better. So that's, that's how you improve, you know? Yeah. If they made up a certain move that was dope, they were like, "Oh, shoot." You'd have to go back in the lab and create something, you know? Yeah. It was about being different. Yeah.

That's cool. And, um, you know, because we didn't have YouTube, you know, we just caught what we could on, on TV or or video or, and then try to create something. Yeah. It was about being original because if you, if you did something similar to someone else, they discarded that really fast. Yeah. They got really downed on that. Yeah.

Do you, does that feel a little weird to see today's generation with how easy it is to take moves and style?

Oh, man. It's like, range for you. There's a lot of, a lot of biting I see now, right? A lot. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know. I'm not saying people. There's, there's a few people that are creative. Very creative. Slim is really creative. Franex, very creative. Junior Boogaloo with his tuts are very creative. Um, you and Rashad, when you guys make create stuff, like, is very different. You guys don't look like anybody out there. But there's a lot of guys. Jay Rock's creative, but he used to be like a copycat of Pete at the beginning. But then he started finding his own, which is good. Yeah. You know, it takes time. Yeah. You know, because like, if a lot of guys ain't studying the old guys, you're not going to learn to be different. Um, yeah. You know, if you don't know what guys were doing back then, how do you know where you're going to take it to, right? Exactly. That's why it's important to learn. Yeah. For sure. You know, don't just do the dance, learn about it. You know? Yeah. Absolutely.

Um, do you mind, uh, telling us a little bit about like your story with, uh, Megatron and Domino? Like, how you met, what you guys did together, the things you were creating, like, that whole story?

Well, about Domino, rest in peace. Um, we knew each other before dance. We grew up since grammar school. We used to hang out and stuff like that and laugh and joke. And then we started practicing together. We used to come from school and we'd go to his house and we used to dance in his front yard. And you remember those old flat cassette tape players? Yeah. From school? Yeah. He used to hit the Kajak, the Nays to come up straight up. Yeah. Well, that's what we used to listen to. You know, this was like before the big, big, big boom box came out. And, uh, so we used to take that. We had a long Planet Rock mix. We put it in the window and we practiced for hours, you know? And that's why a lot of people say that we wave alike, you know what I mean? Because, you know, we trained together. Yeah. And, uh, you know, that's how we, like, created the whole show, the thing, and the isolations and stuff, you know? And, uh, so then as far as Megatron goes, um, there was this kid when I used to go to Harvard Square, near Harvard University, where I live. Uh, we, this kid used to dance for money outside. His name was Super Steve. And he was real nasty. The first day we met, we went move for move for like 45 minutes. He was like that good, you know? And a lot of people don't talk about him in Boston because, like, he got really sick, you know? And, um, you know, he kind of faded out, you know? So, yeah. But he grew up with me and Tron. So, what, what happened was, we would dance and he would go. He was from Dorchester where Tron lived. And he would go and tell Tron about me. And he'd be like, "Yo, he'd be like, yo, Tron, you've got to see this white boy named Shallow, man. He's dope. He does this, this, this, and this." So then he would come back and tell me about Tron. He'd be like, "Yo, Shallow, you got to see this big fat dude named Tron. He's dope, you know what I mean? He does this, this, and this." And this went on for like a year. Wow. And me and Tron never met. So then one time, this kid from Florida that was friends of mine, Andre, he was a popper too. And, uh, we went to the show where New Edition got their first contracts. It was called Hollywood Talent Night. They performed and like a lot of other people performed. But they had like battles going on in the club. So Daundra said, "Yo, I'll be right back." So I walked over to the circle. Next thing I know, the whole circle's behind me and I'm in the front. And this dude called me out. He ate my head and all this, kicked it and all the stuff. So there was this big guy there and he goes, "Oh, man, don't worry about that. Go get him." It was Megatron, but I didn't know at the time. So then he was, he was like, "Don't worry, I got your back." Now, mind you, I was the only white guy in this party. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I was kind of skeptical about battling. So then all of a sudden, he goes, "Go get him. I'll get you back. No one's going to mess with you." So I went in and I ripped this dude apart. He was like, "Oh, [ __ ]!" Like, you know, tripping out. Yeah. And I'm sorry for my language. Oh, you're good. And, um, so he was like, "Yo, what's your name?" I said, "David." This is before they called me Shallow. And he goes, "Oh, man, nice meeting you." I never asked him his name and I left. Andre came back, says, "What are you doing?" I said, "Oh, they were battling." He goes, "Come on, the show's going to start." And when I left, I never saw Megatron again. I kept seeing Steve. He kept talking about Megatron to me. So then one day, we went down Faneuil Hall where we used to dance for money. All the Floor Lords showed up. And he said he was going to be there. And I said, "I would be there." I come around the corner and it's that same dude from the party. He goes, "Yo, I know you." I said, "Oh, I know you too." And he goes, "But you didn't say your name was Shallow." I said, "No, Shallow's my last name. I told you my first name at the first time." So then we started getting down. We went for like an hour, me and him back and forth, like trying to impress each other, you know, just saying, "You know, I got something like that." It wasn't a battle. Wrong. Yeah. And all the other Floor Lords like, "Can we dance?" So then finally, we chilled and we just talked. And they all danced and we exchanged numbers. We hung out every day after that, you know, practicing together, going to clubs, everything. We were like inseparable, you know? And this went on for years. Yeah. Like, you know, then we started entering contests and, okay, talent shows. And then everybody was like, "Tron and Shallow, Tron and Shallow." Yeah. You know, so then everybody knew us. Like, if one of us wasn't around each other, they would ask, "Where's the other guy?" Right. I'm sure you and Rashad get that a lot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. People would say, "Try to say Ryan," and they would say, "Rashad," or "Try to say Rashaan," they would say, "Ryan." They would mix our names up. It was like, right. Exactly. That happened to us too, a lot. Yeah. You know, the funny thing about me and Megatron is, as long as we were together, we never battled each other. And, but a lot of people used to try over the years, "Who's better? Who's better? Who's better?" Yeah. And, you know, just to try and get us going. We never did that, though, because we were too close. Yeah. We never thought about it.

And then you guys went on to do so many things like Slaughterhouse, Unity, and Respect. Tell us a little bit about those things you guys ended up doing together.

Yeah, I mean, even years before that, you know, we were dancing probably 20 years before we started Slaughterhouse, you know? And, uh, we did a lot of shows. So, throw that in there. What year did you start? Uh, I started in '78. '70? Okay. You know, and I started breaking around '80. Yeah. Because I did both styles, you know? Yeah. And, um, but yeah, we did, when we were Floor Lords, we were performing like with Madonna, Run DMC, uh, and I got pictures with all these people. Yeah. You know, and, uh, because, you know, when you're a dancer, you're not a singer or a rapper. So the only way that you could say that you performed with these people is by taking pictures with them or being in the video. But how are you going to video yourself when you're dancing on stage? You know? So the only way was to take pictures. So, but yeah, we did a lot of like fundraisers. Like we did, um, Shriners for like the burnt people, stuff like that. Jerry Lewis Telethons, all that stuff in the '80s. Yeah. We did, we were on Channel 4, Wrap Around, and all that. These were like shows that, and, uh, so we did a lot of charities. An hour, you know, you know, this. So we figured we'd started Slaughterhouse where we would have people come in. Yeah. They would learn foundation. Yeah. We would teach them how to battle. And a lot of people were like, "Well, I don't know how to battle. I don't know how to battle." Yeah. We were like, "Well, you're going to learn today. You're going to get that fear out of your system right now." Yeah. So they would battle a veteran from Slaughterhouse. And then after they battled, regardless how good they were or whatever, they would have to battle, get that fear out of the way. And then everybody became family. Yeah. Those were like your brothers and sisters, you know? Yeah. So like Lady Beast, like Onion for Days, Heat Rock One, uh, Catalyst, Jedi Nice, uh, you know, they all became like her brothers. Yeah. I mean, and they would all train together, help each other, and hang out and, you know, stuff like that. So, you know, I mean, and then, then all the training would start, you know, we'd start doing the foundation after that. Excuse me. But the thing about it is, when they battled, all their peers judged them. And we, and we would ask them, "Who do you think won?" Right. They would say, they would say who. And then why? And then me and Tron would be the final, final answer of saying who won. And this is the reason why. So they got an understanding of how competitions were. Yeah. You know what I mean? You're not always going to get the song of the music that you like. Yeah. So you got to get used to dancing off all different music. Yeah. You know, because we would play all different types of songs and they would have to dance to it. Nice. Whether they like. Sometimes what we would do is we'd line up all the kids and we would battle all of them being Tron, you know what I mean? Just fun battling, you know what I mean? Not serious or not, you know, but it, it, it gave an idea how much they improved. Yeah. You know? And then we do this thing where we would play a song and we would ask them, "How many different noises are in that song or instruments?" And they would have to tell us. And then we'd say, "Okay, now we want you to beat freak to every one of those songs and those noises." Yeah. And then you'd have to do it in different styles, waving, pop, and titan. So that's how you, yeah, how you, your, uh, your foundation grew. So, you know, like I said, we did that. And we did Unity Respect because at the time, there wasn't really no big popping contests. But there was a few little ones, and they weren't putting up a lot of money. Yeah. And we felt like that was disrespectful to the poppers, right? So we figured that we would, uh, throw an event and put up a good amount of money. Yeah. Yeah. So that way, like, you know, we could show respect to our dance and, and everyone that does it. Yeah. And it was, it was so epic at the time because I remember that's when I had just moved to the West Coast for like a year. But I was from the East Coast. But I remember it was a very big, like, East versus West energy. Like, and people, right? Exactly. It was like this big thing. And then the finals ended up being Rashad and Junior. And it was kind of like East Coast on one side, West Coast on another. But the money was so big that everybody from the West Coast wanted to go. It was a, it was like such a unique battle at that time. You know, in order for us to have people come, I had to put up a decent amount of money. Yeah. And we looked at it like this: you have to pay a flight, sometimes or bus or train, then you need to get a hotel, things. So we try to add that amount of money to make up for all that for them, you know? So, so when you throw a jam, you got to think, if you want a big one, people gotta pay flight, hotel, you know, food. And then you get into the event. So if you don't put up a prize money enough to take care of that, you're not gonna get people to come. Yeah. Because it's hard for them. You know, B-boys and poppers are not rich. Yeah. You know what I mean? So you gotta take in that in with, uh, you know, with, uh, what you're doing. And like I said, as far as Rashad and Junior Boogaloo, um, it just worked out that way. Yeah. We didn't plan it like that. Crazy. You know, there was 125 poppers. Yeah. You know, so it was like, it just worked out that way. And it was sunny. It was, it was funny because people came from Japan, France, L.A., New York, um, down South, you know? So was everybody. It was a collaboration, which was good. You know? And that's why we put out judges like that. That's why we had like the top poppers from the West Coast, the OGs, and the East Coast. So that way, there'd be no complaints, you know? And we wouldn't be judges. That's why we only hosted, right? You know, to make it fair for everybody. Yep. You know, so, yeah. And then after that event, a lot of people started throwing big popping events. Which it was like, like I said, Junior Boogaloo, them. Yeah. That just happened to be like that. We didn't plan it that way. Because we had six different judges. And the first Unity Respect, we had Bob and Andre, Pete, Skeeter, Rabbit, rest in peace. Um, Bob and Andre and Clown and Jazzy J. So in the second one, we had Wiggles, we had Rashad, we had Brian Green, and we had Buddhist Stretch. So. Oh, you said no one could ever say you said that there was any favoritism. Did you mean one of them? Did you mean someone else as the judges? It was supposed to be Flat, Flat Top, but Stretch filled in for Flat Top. Oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry. Say the judges again for the second one. Because everywhere it was Boogaloo Sam. It was, uh, Wiggles. It was Buddhist Stretch. And it was Brian Green. Gotcha. And, uh, so like I was saying, there could never be no favoritism towards either one. Yeah. Because it was all different judges. Yeah. And, uh, there was 125 poppers. You had people from France, L.A., New York, down South. Um, you had people from Egypt. Yeah. It was crazy. It was like, you know, people came from everywhere. Yeah. And it was a lot of big name dancers. You had like J-Smooth, had Aki, you had Bruce from Juste Debout. Yeah. You know, a lot of big name people. And, uh, the talent was great. Yeah. And there was a lot of call-out battles too. There was also. Yeah. You had your side things. There was all. Yeah. The first year, I was in a call-out, I think with Ghost Boogie. And there was another call-out. And then the other, the Smooth and Rashad battled on this one. There were so many call-outs. It was so much. It was such an epic battle. And, uh, you know, so that, that was like, kind of like the birth of big, big money popping. Um, events. Which is good because it, like I said, we, we should be shown the same respect as the B-boys. Especially in the U.S. too. There wasn't a lot of that. Like, some stuff overseas was like bigger events. And even now, I think about that too. I miss like the big popping battles in the States, you know? Like, usually, yeah, out there. But at that time, like you said, people from outside were coming to the States, which was really cool. Which was good too, is that they started bringing a lot of U.S. dances overseas after that too. Yeah. So a lot of people got their careers that's true, blowing up after that. Yeah. People getting names, built up careers. That's very true. Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. And which is good. It's good for the scene. Anything that's good for the scene is, look, what's, we always look at it like this: you can have your hands in popping or people you don't like or whatever. But in the end, we're all family. We're all brothers because we're all trying to get the same, you know, um, inspiration, uh, uh, shows, whatever, whatever it is, anything to make it grow. So in that, in that, in that aspect, we're all tied in together anyways. For sure.

I wanted to, uh, maybe change gears a little bit and ask you, since like race is like a hot topic right now, you know, like being a person of European descent, you know, white person, like, what, what was it like coming up for you like as a white person in Boston doing this dance? Is there any interesting scenarios, interesting things that happened?

There was a lot, actually. Yeah. Which, bro, which [Music] it basically helped me grow when I got older towards a lot of things. Being white in a Boston area, you know, also being white doing an African-American dance. Um, you know, you had your people that made that downed it, said, you know, they, they try to discredit you and say, "Oh, you weren't good," or whatever. And, but there was a lot of people that supported it, you know, because they knew I was doing something positive, you know? But I went to a lot of black areas where I battled a lot of people. I got chased out of a lot of areas, you know? You know, because people got offended because they were, they were losing. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so you had to be really, um, protective of yourself, you know? Yeah. But, um, but I had a lot of friends that were African-American that I grew up with first, representing my area, you know, where I was from. And, you know, I never knew how good I was gonna be, yeah, like yet. And, um, I just wanted to learn it and be respected. Yeah. You know? And, you know, you dance for your name, for your reputation. Back then, they don't do that no more, right? Back then, if you like battles and you had a battle for your name, and you lost, your career was done. Yeah. You know, they don't, they don't, they don't have it like that. Number one, you kids got it real easy now, you know? They're really sensitive. You tell someone now, "You need to work, you need to get better," they get all offensive. You know, they don't want to be your friend, you know? And all this other stuff. But look, you got to be honest. That's the problem with this dance these days. A lot of kids are kissing each other's ass because they're friends, you know? And they're not telling the truth if something's whack or not good. You got to be honest and tell it, man. Yeah. And that's the only way you're going to grow as a dancer. Yeah. You know? And I think these days they don't do that. You know, everyone wants to be so positive. It's not about being negative, it's about growing together. Um, yeah. You know, so if you went out, you danced in front of me, and I know I'm doing crap, shitty, and y'all like, "Yo, that," I hope you don't be honest with me. Tell me, say, "Oh, I've seen you, I've seen you better." Right. Right. You know? And then I know I need to work harder. Was, um, a lot of these dances these days, they look alike because they're following each other on YouTube and they're not being original. So that comes from being honest too, you know? You gotta say, "Well, this person does this." You know? And, um, you gotta switch it up. You know? And you can't do to say that to these kids because they get, they get upset, like, you know, "You're hurting their feelings or whatever." You know? So it's about being original anyway. Yeah.

Wait, how do you feel about, um, like the new, new thing a lot of people are talking about is like white folks being a guest to the culture? Have you ever felt like a guest? Do you feel like you're a guest now? Like, what do you think of that whole topic?

I've been doing it since '78. So if I'm a guest, I guess I'm a long guest. I'm a guest in '78. You know, it's, it's not about race, man. You know, we know who started the dance. Yeah. You know what I mean? But it's like, if you're representing the dance properly, there should be no quarrels. Yeah. You know, as long as you're showing respect to it, you know, and the people before you, right? There should be no qualms. Yeah. You know, I don't feed into that stuff anyway. I don't believe in race. Like I said, some of my close friends, I've known only 40 years, and then they're my family. And, like Megatron, Domino, they were my brothers. And I've known you over 30 years. Yeah. And we never, ever got into the race thing and nothing like that. Yeah. I find it, I find it really disrespectful to even bring up race. I mean, if, if we're not racist, then why are we talking about them? Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, if, if we're being constructive and saying, "All right, yeah, it was an African-American dance, but they weren't the only ones doing it." Sure. It was Latinos, Asians, you know, all different cultures. Papa Tacos, Mexican, right? You know what I mean? So it's like, and he was doing it like back when Pete and then were doing that, right? So it's like, they weren't bringing that up to him like, "Oh, you're Mexican." Yeah. You know? It's just, I don't see it. I don't see the sense in it. Like I said, if you, if you're doing the dance properly and you're respecting everybody, it shouldn't be no problems. Yeah. I, I, I agree. I fully agree. You know, I walk right by that stuff. Yeah. Respect first. You know, being in, respect the person first. You know, like, yeah. I also was treated like a brother by most the people I learned with. And, and the people that I came up with treated me just like, like a brother, you know? Just like someone that was a part of this thing. They never called me that, you know? They didn't act like I was something that wasn't a part of this. And I felt like that's what made me able to grow in this thing, you know? Because I was never treated like that by, by my peers and the people I came up with. So, yeah, that's how it should be. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like you said, those are your brothers. They were my family. Yeah. You know? And like, like I said, since childhood. And, um, there isn't anything they wouldn't do for me and I wouldn't do for them. Yeah. It's just how it should be. Yeah. For sure.

Well, yeah, thanks for sharing about that. I appreciate it. Um, another last thing I wanted to ask you about was, uh, I don't know if this is the last thing, but one other thing I wanted to ask you about was like battles. Like, if you could share some epic battles you were in or certain battles that you wanted to mention that you'd.

It's funny you say that. One of the top battles, I battled this kid called Snow White. He was Puerto Rican, but he had blue eyes, so he looked like a white boy. So they called him Snow White. That was his dancing name. Wow. And he was in the Playboy Poppers. So what happened was, they came to Cambridge, in my hometown, from Mission Hill where they were from, which was like a real tough town in Boston. And like four of them came and they battled me and Domino. Me and Domino roasted these kids. So they were like, "We're going to come back with the rest of our crew next week." We were like, "Bring whoever you want." We didn't think it was going to happen. They came back like 20 deep. And they were, my buddy ran to my door, knocking on my door. And he was like, "Oh, Shallow, they're here." I said, "Who's here?" He's like, "Them kids from Mission Hill. There's like 20 of them. They all have like white sweaters on with black Playboys on." Just sweaters. So I, you know, we started calling all our friends that dance that, you know, because the Floor Lords weren't around at the time. So me and Domino and a bunch of kids from my hometown ended up battling. It was like 20 on 20. It was crazy. This battle, there's a piece of it on YouTube. And, um, my buddy recorded it on Reel-to-Reel. And he, he ended up saving it like 30 years, then he put it on DVD and gave it to me. And it's on YouTube, a piece of it. When we were all young, if you look up, um, I'm so embarrassed because what I was wearing was crazy. As we did a documentary after that, we were trying to imitate Beach Street. And I had like booty shorts on with a candy cane t-shirt. Now, mind you, we were poor, we were poor ghetto kids back then. So that's, you know, we were what we could. And, but it's on YouTube. And it's history. So if you look up Cambridgeport Hip Hop, you'll see the video. A piece of that battle is at the beginning. Um, but anyways, what happened was, we ended up all battling for like an hour or two. And everybody from the neighborhood came. There was like thousands of people there. People sitting on roofs of the houses and everything. It was crazy. So then, like two girls got into a big fight and the cops came and broke it up. That's how big it was. It was like, you know. So we ended up going down to the projects and me and Snow White were one-on-one. And it was crazy. He did this move. To this day, I never seen it. You know, you said, you know how you see red bricks on the ground? He got on his knees and hands and started started moving his his legs and feet at the same time and act like he was crawling up the wall like Spider-Man. It was so dope. I was like, "Wow, I never seen that." You know? And, uh, if you can picture what I'm talking about, you know, as both arms and legs are going up and down and he's on the floor, but he's going side to side up the bricks. Whoa. You know what I'm saying? This is what I mean about being different and being creative. Yeah. And popping. Yeah. You know what I mean? Till this day, I never seen nothing like that. Yeah. You know? And it's just like with the red bricks, just made it more illusionary, you know, which was crazy. But we ended up going back and forth. And then our girlfriends got in there. My girlfriend at the time was his ex-girlfriend, Snow. And she was a. And they finished the battle off. And we ended up winning, which was crazy. The girls back. That was just one scenario, you know? And, uh, you know, I battled Jazzy J, which was a dope battle at Rock Steady Reunion. When I first met him, he thought I was Mr. Reed. When he called me out, um, I battled Skeeter Rabbit, rest in peace. And, you know, I'm really glad that I did. I was mad at the time because I didn't expect it. Yeah. And, um, that was because I called Jay Rock and then he spoke to them and then he called me out, which I'm glad because we became really good friends after that. Yeah. And that's what old school people do. Yeah. You battle somebody, whether you win or lose, sometimes you become friends, sometimes you become enemies. You know what I mean? That's just part of the dance and the culture. But I was really glad that we, you know, we became good friends after that, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Cool. So those were a few battles, anyways. Those are some pretty big, big ones.

Oh, Playboy Eddie's another one. Oh, you better play Batman. Yeah. After back to Mecca, he called me out. And, uh, he wanted to battle me for five dollars outside. We were in the Bronx under the trains. And he wanted a clown to the judge. And I said, "No, no, no." There was like 100 people over at the store getting food. And I said, "Bring everybody over here." And I told him, "I don't want to beat you with one person. I want to beat you with everybody watching." Yeah. And then we went like four rounds and he gave up. And he said, um, "You got a lot of moves. I don't know which one any of them are yours." But, you know, he was like, "She was like, take the money, take the money, homeboy, take the money." And I was like, "But we became friends after that." No, which was good. So, but Eddie's dope too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, nice. It's been around a long time. Respect to him for sure. For sure. Me and Reed almost got in. Mr. Reed. What happened was, uh, he was a guest with the Floor Lords at the Floor Anniversary. And he was hanging out with Domino before I got there. So Domino was saying, "You know, you got to meet Sheldon when you get here. He's like a battle type dude, you know? But he's, you know, cool, whatever." But obviously Mr. Reed is too, a battle person. So when I showed up there, there was a circle. Mr. Reed went in the circle and he came right out on me. It was face to face with me. And I'm looking at Domino and everybody like, "Let me know when you're ready." So I looked at Domino and the rest of the guys like, "I thought this guy's a guest here with us." So he walked, he started walking away. And I went after him. Yeah. And he walked out of the circle laughing like, you know, I think he just wanted to get me going, you know? Right. And, but so I said, "Where you going? We ain't finished yet." And he just laughed and kept walking. So we never finished the battle, you know? But Miri became close after that, you know? Yeah. And, uh, he told me later on that Domino got him hyped up to like want to battle me, you know? I was like, "And Domino would do stuff like that." You would. Yeah. Just, just to piss me off. That's what friends do, you know? And, uh, so it was cool, yeah. You know, but it would have been a, it would have been a good battle, though. Yeah. We seem like we have similar styles. That would be dope battle. Yeah. So, but Maria, really cool anchor. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Man.

So is there, uh, what are you, are you still open to doing teaching and stuff like that? If people watching this, can they?

Yeah, I mean, like, I'm doing, I would do, you know, more of the youth, you know? Yeah. And, but, yeah, I'm open to teaching and stuff like that, judging. Yeah. You know, I just chill out right now, you know what I mean? I just, more, I just more like growing and trying to, um, build, you know? Yeah. I, I, you know, I don't talk about it much, but, um, you know, I, that I'm going through. And so I'm just dealing with that while still training, you know, and practicing. Yeah. Yeah. For anybody that watches this interview, you know, you can contact Shallow like directly if you're interested in hearing more history. You know, like he said, he's teaching, he can judge. So he's a great resource. He's, you know, and he's a definitely an East Coast legend for for us, you know? Like I said, I looked, I looked up to folks like like you first on the East Coast before I learned anything else outside of like what was going on over here on the East, because that was my my upbringing. So, man, just really appreciate everything you've contributed, you know, and you're still here, still sharing. So definitely appreciate that, man.

Yeah, I'm always, I'm always available to help anybody, you know, anything for the culture. Yeah. So, and they can reach me on Instagram, @Shallow6177, or on Facebook. Facebook, I mean, I'm sorry, this echo is killing me over here. Technology. Yeah. But, you know, I watched a lot of you guys grow. Oh, yeah. You, uh, you, Rashad, Pop, and Todd, Pop and John, um, you know, like I said, Catalyst, Jedi Nice, Onion for Days, 3D. There's, there's a lot of you and guys that are in your prime now and doing your thing. Yeah. Which I'm proud of, you know? I'm proud of all you guys. You guys are like passing on the torch.

Appreciate that, man. Appreciate it. Is there any last thing you want to share with maybe other dancers coming up or other OGs or anybody? Last final words?

Just, um, just remember that a lot of the OGs that you get that are, you know, famous and pop and or whatever, or or you respect, learn from them. Ask them questions because they're not going to be around forever, you know? We're losing a lot of famous dancers and it's sad, you know? Rest in peace, Ozone, Shab, we should have, do you know, Domino, Louis New Wave. There's a lot of, there's just so many people. And it's the ones that are around, don't be afraid to ask questions. These guys are here to help you and they like that. They like they like sharing their history, you know, and showing you to do the right thing in the dance, you know? So don't be afraid to ask. That's one thing. Pop and Pete, Hugo Taco, um, there's just so many people. Boogaloo Sam, you know, like, rest in peace, John Campbell too. Yeah. You know, it's like, like I said, we're losing a lot of famous icons. Yeah. And, uh, don't be afraid to ask them anything, you know? If you want to learn the right way, you got to ask. Yeah. So that's one thing. The other thing I want to give a shout out to, you know, my family, Floor Lords, um, Megatron, my partner, Disco Dave, my other brother, Jazzy J. Another person you should be asking. Rest in peace to my brother, Domino. You know, just all the people that represent the dance. And all you young guys, just keep doing your thing, man. I respect all you guys for sure.

Thank you, man. Thank you so much for showing up for this interview, being here, doing this. I really appreciate it. And, um, yeah, we'll be in contact more soon. Let's do some more stuff together.

Definitely, man. Which collab? Yeah. All right. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. All right. Peace.

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