Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

Two, one, boom! And we're live. First of all, cheers, gentlemen, let's have a little toast. Relax, Bob. Thank you very much for doing this, I really appreciate it. I understand that you've told this story many, many times. You've been grilled many, many times, and it's very stressful for you, so I really, really appreciate your time.

For people who don't know the story, there is a documentary. Jeremy Corbell has a documentary out right now. It's called "Bob Lazar: Area 51 and UFOs and Flying Saucers." And "Flying Saucers: Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying." Okay. Um, I first heard your story decades ago. I've—I told you last night we went out to dinner—I've seen pretty much every interview you've ever given. I've followed the story incredibly closely. But for people who don't know the story, let's give them the bullet points.

You used to work at Area 51. In Area 51, you got—you—you went like, well, you know, we want to be accurate. Okay, Area S4. S4. Okay, it's about 15 miles south of Area 51. Okay. Um, you worked in what would you—how would you describe it? I—I guess within the Area 51 compound, you can call that a subset of Area 51. And you got that job. Before that, you were working—before that, I had worked at Los Alamos, right? National Labs in New Mexico. And you were involved in what kind of work? Nuclear weapon development, physics? I mean, that's—they do everything there.

So how do they approach you to say, "Hey, Bob, why don't you come on out to the Nevada desert?" Well, the way this went down was, um, at that time, it was 1982. I had put a jet engine in my—my Honda, and Los Alamos put it on the front page of the paper. It said, you know, uh, "Los Alamos Man, Physicist at the Lab, you know, built this 200-mile-an-hour, you know, jet car" that I drove to work every day. So, uh, so I was known in Los Alamos as the guy with the weird car, and, you know, you could hear it from, you know, a mile away. Anyway, the day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was giving a lecture down there at the lab. And we didn't have much going on that day in our group, and I asked if I could go down there. And I went down there early, and Ed Teller was outside, leaning on a brick wall there, and reading the front page of the paper. Now, there's a guy out of history. So I introduced myself, "Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there." And we talked for a little while, and it was cool. Uh, you know, fast forward to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas and had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you, know, went on to other things. And I wanted to get back into the scientific community. Yeah, I left, started other businesses and—and that sort of thing. So I sent resumes out, and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting, you know, back—back in that—the day. And, uh, anyway, he remembered me and gave me a reference, somebody to contact at EG&G. And that's pretty much how it started.

So you get a phone call or a letter? Like, what do you get?

Well, I got a—what did I get? I got a letter initially, and, um, went down for an interview probably a couple times. And it was down at EG&G Special Projects, which was, um, at McCarran Airport at that time, out in Las Vegas.

Did they give you any sort of job description of what you were applying for?

Um, they said it was for Ed. I can't remember exactly what they did. This was a long time ago, but I—I think it was, um, advanced propulsion or something like that. Something relatively generic. And they said it's in a remote area, um, you know, it's gonna be some days on, some days off. And, um, you know, it was kind of a—it was kind of, uh, not exactly a full-time job, but you might have to be out there for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off. So it was kind of, uh, the work schedule would be kind of broken up.

And did this seem attractive to you, or did it seem weird?

No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there, um, you know, working at the nuclear test site, uh, or at the Tonopah Test Range north of there, uh, that's typically how things go.

So you had known about it from the scientific community because the Area 51 at that time was—

No, they didn't say anything about Area 51. Okay, so they just said it was in a, you know, in a remote location, and you just knew it was up at the test site, right? So, but there was no mention of Area 51 at that time.

So they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in Nevada. And Nevada, that whole area was—there's been—there's giant chunks of Nevada the people—

Yeah, there's a big piece of Nevada, and it's split up into different areas. There's a nuclear test site, there's Area 51, there's the Tonopah Test Range north of that. There's little sub-areas, there's areas where they test chemical weapons and things like that. So it's all broken up as a, you know, gigantic test area.

Take me back to first day on the job. You accept a job, they take you out there.

Yeah, it's, um, the first day, really, I didn't really get to see a whole lot. The first day was essentially just paperwork. That's when I flew into Area 51 proper. And I left McCarran Airport and flew what they call the Janet flights, just, um, you know, a passenger plane from Las Vegas to Area 51. And it was really just going through a mountain of paperwork that day, from security clearances to, um, God, there was—it was like two or three hours of just solid paperwork. And that was—that was really an uneventful first day.

When did things get weird? When did you realize that? At what point in time did you say, "Hey, this is not normal work. Like, this doesn't even seem like it's from this planet"?

I can't tell you what day that occurred on because so much time has gone by. The days have kind of fused into one, and I can't separate the days.

Was it a slow burn, or was there a moment of recognition?

Well, the—the first inkling I had was when I—I came in normal. There's this facility that is at S4. It's in the side of a mountain. And normally we had pulled in with the bus and gone around the front through a normal double door. This time that I went in, there were hangar doors open. I went into the hangar door, and in the hangar door was the disc, the flying saucer that I worked on. I saw it sitting there, and we walked by. It had a little American flag stuck on the side, and I thought, "Oh my God, this finally explains all the flying saucer stories! This is just an advanced fighter, and it—this is fucking hilarious!" Right? So I went by, I slid my hand alongside it. I got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing. And, uh, there was a guy, an armed guard that followed us in and just said, "Keep your eyes forward and your hands at your side, and just walk in the door." So that was the first time I had seen anything that was weird. It was some time later that I was introduced to my, um, my lab partner, Barry. And we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab, and Barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner, so he was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things. And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention to where this is technology that doesn't even exist. So, I mean, that was the first time I knew that this is really something different.

What was it? What was it? What was a—what was it about this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist technologically?

Well, it was the—I actually have to back up because there were some briefings that I read before that, that, you know, certainly gave me the impression that this was going to be a weird job. But this was the first hands-on thing. This was a small reactor, about the size of a hemisphere, about the size of a basketball, on a metal plate. And when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own. Now, this is something that we can't do. We can't produce any gravity. The only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass. But there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity. Like, you know, you can turn on an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field. We can't make a gravitational field. Anyway, this device was producing that. And Barry said, almost like he was bragging, "Go ahead, try and—try and touch the sphere." And I—I couldn't. It would—it pushed my hands away, just like two like poles of a magnet. So that was, uh—

So like when you take two magnets and try to press them together?

Yeah, you have this—each other. Yeah, kind of a cushion feeling, but you can't—you can't get them together. The closer you put them, the more they push. But then you felt that physically with my hand?

Yeah. Now, there's nothing—there's nothing that does that, and that immediately caught my attention, going, "Wow, this is something else!"

What was your thought like when you felt that and you knew that there was nothing that you were aware of that could produce that?

It connected me to the briefings that I read on the—the first day at S4, was that, uh, you know, everything that I had read was apparently accurate.

What were you reading?

I read—it was kind of an overview. This project was to back-engineer the alien craft, and specifically, it was to try and back-engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials. Now, to do this, they split the project into, you know, many different pieces for several reasons. They do this on all classified projects, so, uh, nobody has the complete story, but, uh, they compartmentalize everything. Now, we had the power and propulsion system. So what the briefings they gave me were like a one or two-page overview of some of the other projects that were going on, you know, on the craft. The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know of to one of the other projects, you have to know their—excuse me—their existence. So, um, you know, I—but again, everything from metallurgy to, um, you know, weapon potential, the craft. And these were all, you know, essentially very short briefings, but mine was just power and propulsion, and it made it very clear that what I read was accurate.

So when you're reading that before you actually saw the reactor, what were your thoughts on what they were describing? If you knew that something like that didn't exist and they're describing it in the briefings, what did you think you were going to see?

I really—I—I didn't know at the time. I mean, I was reading. I thought, "Is this just some kind of test?" Um, "See if you're crazy?" Well, not to see if I'm crazy. To, you know, a lot of times they'll take in real high-security, uh, jobs. I mean, they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them, um, whether it's to confuse the fact, or if for someone was to leak it out, they would carry that information along and know where it came from. So I read through the documents, but, you know, I didn't know if this was, you know, part of some kind of test, or, um, you know, or what. Or was it potentially realistic? I mean, I really didn't consider it being all that possible as far as being, uh, the actual thing that I was going to work on at the time.

How did they turn it on, the—the reactor?

Yeah, the reactor can be turned on or turned off in a lot of different ways. Um, the way Barry showed me, the hemisphere is removed. There's a small tower in the middle. When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates. The reactor shuts down. It's—it's load sensing. So if there's—if there's no load on the reactor at all, it shuts down. When there's a load present on it, it starts up again. Load meaning you can consider it an electrical load. So although it doesn't necessarily operate electrically, there's no wiring that connects any of the sub-components together whatsoever. They just have to be in the immediate vicinity. It's, uh, it is, but the stuff is borderline magic. And that's essentially where we left it, you know, when I left the project.

So there was no progress made?

There was some progress. I mean, we did identify, at least we think, some processes and—and had a rough idea, we think, of what was going on. But I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time. And, um, you know, I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me, and I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on. But, you know, Barry alluded to that horrific accident.

Like where someone died?

Yeah, where somebody died because they were trying to tamper with things or figure out how something worked. Yeah, the reactor in particular.

But yet he let you touch it?

Yeah, I think what they were trying to do was cut into one. Now, they had—they had more than one there, and they—that was supposedly—there was an unannounced nuclear test, and that's what it was at the time. Remember, they would still do an underground nuclear test at the test site. Um, but from what I understand, according to Barry, there was an attempt made. Now, this must have been a pretty desperate intent because it's not a very scientific process to cut, you know, analyze something that way. But it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something like that to cut into an operating reactor.

How many of these things did they have?

They had nine. Nine craft altogether. I only got hands-on with one of them, so I can't really say what the—how the others operated.

Did you see the other ones?

Yeah, at one time, and only one time, the bay doors that between the hangars were all open, and I could see all the way through.

And were they all exactly the same?

No, they were all different. Different shapes. Yeah.

But they were all from somewhere else?

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, did anyone make any attempt to explain or to—to tell you where they came from?

No, no. No one is the least bit interested in letting everybody know all the facts. They want to give you the minimum information that's necessary to complete your task. So you're not getting the story of where they came from. You're not getting the story of what—how much progress other people are making. You just focus on the small component.

But they gave you some indication that they've been working on these for a while?

Yeah.

When do you think they acquired these?

I really couldn't say. I think they've been around for a while.

So they bring you into this room, you see this reactor working. You—you realize this is nothing that, as far as like the scientific community at current time, has the ability to create. We still don't. What is your life like from that moment on? Is that where everything changes? Because you do—you—I mean, I would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an object or a being, something where you can actually absolutely be certain it's not from here, your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in, is now a different place.

Well, this is the only time it became exciting. You know, the rest of the time, the—it was really an ominous feeling being at work. But it, at that time, it was exciting. I mean, this was—now I knew we were on the absolute—actually, beyond the cutting edge of science, and I was—I was so absolutely excited to be there every single time I was. Um, you know, it would—this was a fantastic opportunity. And however, in short order, it began to concern me. We really have no idea what we're talking about, and the excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical. I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power. And I've given the example before of, you know, taking a small portable nuclear reactor and, you know, putting it back into Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time, and just dropping it in a room. And they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works. So they start taking it apart, and as soon as they get some of the shielding off, the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside. Now, the people have no idea that radiation even exists back then. But anybody that comes in to check on him will also drop dead. And, you know, there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with. We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing. The power levels are—are, like I said, astronomical. Like, it's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that. And, you know, in some respects, we were guinea pigs, just trying to find out how to make this thing.

So they had a series, as far as you're surmised, that a series of different scientists tried to back-engineer this thing, try to figure out what this thing was, and they would bring in new people and like, "Let's throw Bob at it"?

Yeah, yeah. And they—I know, I don't know how many, but I knew there was certainly one before me, and I knew he died during the analysis of the—or the reactor itself. And you don't know how many have worked on it, and no one gave—this could have been there for 50 years, it could have been there for five years.

When they're giving you instructions, what are they saying? Like, when they're giving you direction, they're showing you all the stuff, like, what—what are they saying? What specifically are they asking of you?

Well, essentially what they ask is—is what I said. All we are is just to gather as much information as possible, find out how it operates, and see if we can duplicate it.

So, but they always realize you where it was from? They never let you ask questions about where it's from?

Well, if the information I read in the briefings was accurate. Now, what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate. What I read did—I mean, did jive with reality, um, in terms of how—in terms of how it was made, how what we saw, how it operated, the materials, how it, you know, turned on, and what was discovered—uh, discovered about it. I'm sorry, the migraine is really making it hard for me to think. Thank you. Sorry.

No, we talked that before the podcast. You tell her, "Buddy, Bob is getting a migraine." I know you're very stressed out by this, which is one of the reasons why I appreciate you doing this. Um, where was I already? We were talking—oh, right, yeah, explained it. And, uh, so there was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticuli star system. Now, yeah. Now, how they obtain that, I haven't—I haven't the slightest idea. But it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticuli star system. It was what they called ZR3. So it was a third planet in that star system. So there was no other information about it other than that, supposedly, where the craft came from. Now, is that true? I don't know. I have no way of verifying that. But that was printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor. Now, I looked that stuff up when I went home, and Zeta Reticuli is a binary star, two stars that orbit—orbit one another, and it's only visible in the Southern Hemisphere, and it's about 30-some odd light-years away. So that's literally all the information I have about that. I don't know how they found out it came from there.

And you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation, like you were talking about before they would?

Yeah, yeah. To—I mean, if you ever decided to talk about this, they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual look ridiculous, right? Or be able to trace it down, like, "Hey, this facts came out, and, you know, this Lazar guy said it, you know, came from Zeta Reticuli." So they knew it was—

When we read Zeta Reticuli, we're like, "What in the fuck is this?"

Well, reading all of this stuff, it was, "What in the fuck is this?"

You're like, "Why did I sign up for this?"

No, no. To me, this was cool. This is interesting. I said, I was just excited to be out in a secure area, you know, in the middle of the desert. I said, "This is awesome!"

How old are you?

I guess in my 20s. Yeah.

So you're probably totally geeked out?

Oh, yeah, this was—this was great. I mean, I—I was excited, so I didn't care reading through everything.

And so you read through all the Zeta Reticuli thing, but then when you see the actual starship with the little American flag sticker on it, well, that was—was that later or before that?

That was before.

So before? So you see the thing before and you say, "Oh, this is where—what's that before hard?" So many years.

Yeah, I can't. Either way, it doesn't matter. The days have fused together. It's so hard to separate what happened in each visit.

Do you remember the thought process when you read that it's from Zeta Reticuli?

Yeah, it—it—it—it didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything. It's just like, "Yeah, okay." You think it was bullshit?

I don't know. This is where I don't know. Now, I don't—I mean, because when I read it, I hadn't verified anything, and this was just a bunch of stuff I was reading, and I thought maybe after this they're just going to give me a test and see what I can remember in, right, crazy information. And it would—but like I said, when I finally went in with Barry, um, and had hands-on experience with what they were talking about, it took on a completely different meaning.

So there's a plate, there's this thing that looks like a half a basketball, and when it's on, you can't come anywhere near it. You can't touch it, right?

How is—what is gravity about that? Like, the—the concept of gravity to most people, gravity is bringing something towards it, right?

Well, I guess you would say it's anti-gravity. It's gravity shifted 180 degrees. It's, uh, you know, anti-gravity.

And did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect? Did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into?

No, they—well, they knew there was a fuel source in it, and they were proficient at making it work. And again, my analogy to something like this is, you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside, you know, somebody's place. Everybody will come around it, and they'll poke and prod, and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start, and become proficient at riding it. Yeah, but they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on. They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else. And I think that's exactly the state we were at. We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the reactor operate, take the fuel out, and know that it makes it work. How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time. I think we made some progress on what was going on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything. They could just watch what was going on and make note of it.

How long were you there?

I'd say about six months or so.

And what—what progress was made while you were there?

Well, we came up with a bunch of reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked. And one of them was the base, the square base of it, was essentially like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator, a circular one. Particle accelerators, linear particle accelerators, are just a, you know, long tube essentially, and they accelerate particles with high voltage and, you know, radio frequencies till they reach high speeds. But a cyclotron does that in a smaller circular area. And there is this very heavy element fuel, Element 115, something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time. But it is now.

It is now. Yeah.

When did it become on the periodic table? Now, the way the charts—now, you know, I don't remember. Do you remember when they—

2004, Darmstadt, Germany, I think is where they first fabricated four atoms. They lasted 220 milliseconds. With the atoms, it's nothing, right? And then it later was discovered a couple more times they could fabricate it. Then they gave it—they gave it a place then on the periodic chart after that, called it Moscovium.

So they told you about this stuff in 1982?

Yeah, well, we can—

'82? What—what year was this?

It was '88 and '89 when I was there. '82 is when—'82 was when you're in Los Alamos. I'm sorry. Yeah. So '88, '89, they told you about this stuff? So this was not like—

No, they didn't—they didn't tell me about it. That's one of the things that this group came up with. The, um—um, I keep losing my train of thought with this thing. So this one area, this—this Element 115 was the fuel. Yeah, it was the fuel. Um, the—the world will forgive you for having a migraine. I can—I just—it's really hard to think throughout this case. I just want to say one—

Yeah, definitely. As I said, one thing, you know, but for the last 30 years, people have just been on the attack on Bob. You know, getting to know him, the personal effects on his life. It's really hard to understand unless you meet his family and his wife. I mean, this is the last thing he wanted to fucking do was have to talk.

Yeah, we should explain that. Jeremy, you and I had this conversation. I watched your documentary. We had this conversation, and I said, "I have to talk to him." Yeah, the document—there's—there's been detractors. There's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said. But over time, many of the things that you talked about, even in the '80s, have proven to be true. Things that people said were not true were proven to be true. Element 115 was one of them, right?

Right, right, right. Element 115, the fuel they had, was stable. In other words, it didn't decay. It wasn't emitting radioactivity. Um, when they synthesized the two or three atoms of the 115, uh, it did decay, and it was not a stable element. So they're—they're kind of two different things. But this is kind of typical. Elements always have, or pretty much always have, uh, stable isotopes and unstable isotopes. Like, I think Cesium has like 30 unstable isotopes to it. So, all right, well, Hydrogen, for example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas. It's stable, it's not radioactive. But there's also two other types of hydrogen, deuterium and tritium. And deuterium isn't radioactive, it's another stable isotope hydrogen. But tritium is radioactive. Now, they're all hydrogen, but they just have a different amounts of neutrons. So it's the same thing with other elements, and Element 115. Depending on the amount of neutrons it has designates the isotope. But it's 115. They will continue to take or experiment and try and make 115 at different isotopes, and I'm sure eventually they'll come up with a stable version. But it's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about. So they somehow or another had acquired a stable version.

Did they say that the stable version had come with this craft?

It absolutely came with the craft. Yeah.

So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable Element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?

Well, everything was impossible, right? I mean, down—down to the metal. I—I did get a chance, uh, to look inside the craft on only one occasion. And this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated, since everything operates without any interconnection. So the placement of components might be critical. So they allowed me to go inside and—and look at it. Um, dude, again, I forgot where the hell I am.

So you're going into this craft, and what are you thinking when you're inside of it? Like, what are you seeing?

It's, um, it's a very ominous feeling because it's—there are no—at first of all, everything is one color. It's like a dark pewter color, and there are no right angles anywhere. It's as if somebody took, uh—I've said this before—somebody took a—a model out of and fashioned it out of wax, and then heated it just for a short time so everything melted. Everything looks like it's fused together. Everything has a radius of curvature where two, uh, items meet. It's, uh, it's a really weird-looking thing. But, um, uh, there was almost nothing other than a small, foldable hatchway that—that looked recognizable. Everything was, uh, was really unworldly, depicting it a way to describe it.

So you—you get inside this thing, and it's designed for something that's much smaller than a human being?

Yeah, you can't really stand up till you get to the very center of it.

And how tall are you?

I'm 5'10".

And what do you think this was designed for?

I'd say something close to half my height.

Wow. So these little three-foot tallish creatures?

Yeah. And the—the seats were small too. I mean, obviously, it was made, you know, for something—something small. But there's no like—there's—there's nothing else in there. There's just seats, the reactor, and some of the sub-components. There's no—there's no control panels, there's no bathroom, there's no—no decorative, uh, components or artwork or anything that you would recognize or trim. I mean, it's just a very bare-bones thing.

You're not seeing any screens?

Well, there are archways around it that are part of the superstructure, and that one of the archways can become transparent. When I was in there, there was another group working on one of the archways, and you could call that a screen, more or less. So through that archway, it would be—it would maintain the solidity, the—the solid whatever metal it was. Yeah, but you could—yeah, it just became transparent. Yeah, I saw that happen once or twice before I left.

Did you ask any questions about what the phone—

No, there's no—there's no asking questions. No. But when you watch something become transparent and you realize it's still there, but you could now see through it?

Yeah, I mean, now that's not that impressive. We do have some liquid crystal materials that are like that, you know, they are seen in smart glass. Yeah, they call it smart glass. So this is just, uh—and I don't know if the craft is made of, you know, an advanced metal or a ceramic. It was cold to the touch, so, um, you know, I would lean in more towards the metal.

You're not allowed to ask questions?

No. The only—there they work on the buddy system, so I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry. Now, this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion, and ideally, you get a bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems, and that's how things move forward. But they're so over-the-top concerned about security, they split everything off, and everybody becomes stagnant. It—it—it just destroys any of the progress you can make, or at least makes it go so slow. Um, they—I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot, which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a jet-powered Honda to come in and see what he could do. I think that was an act of desperation. I think they wanted someone that thinks out of the box, and, "Let's just give this guy a try here," because they weren't. And, uh, they might have done this four more times since, uh, you know, up to the point in time today, assuming they're still working on this thing.

And when you see this craft and you're inside, was there any indication that there was an area that they would use to control it, to pilot? Was there a pilot seat?

There's—there were three seats. They sat around, uh, the reactor was in the dead center of it, and then equidistant around there were three seats. So, and that's all. There was a—a large—you would—they're not consoles. There are large rectangular objects also spaced equidistant around the center. Um, there's nothing on them, there's no buttons, there's no lights, and they control the same color. Everything is the same color, different shape, right? And, um, directly underneath them, there's three levels in the craft. Uh, the main level is what we're talking about. Directly under that, those are the gravity amplifiers, the big rectangular objects. Underneath them are the gravity emitters that look like, for lack of a better word, a trash can hanging on a pipe, three of those. And then the top layer, I—this is just my personal belief—I think that has to do with a—a navigation or their version of a computer, uh, with some planar panels, sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes, but they're not portholes, they're just black areas. And I think that just determines its, you know, position in space. But I was—I—I physically was in the center section, and I stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.

What is the—the roughly the size of this thing?

It's a—I think it—I don't remember from being there, but, um, after all this stuff was over, I had, uh, John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation, and, you know, we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw, um, and known sizes of things, and we came up with 52 feet in diameter. So I think that's—

Really small.

Yeah, so I think that's a fair, a reasonable guess.

Now, you said there's nine of them, and you got a brief glimpse at the other ones. Were they—how are they different?

Oh, they looked completely different. One looked like—I called it "Jell-O mold," and it—it looked like a classic Jell-O mold with the rippled sides to it. One was a very flat disc, um, you know, like a—oh, I don't—like a straw hat or something like that that was sitting up on its edge. And the thin part of it had looked like a projectile had been fired through the edge of it. So I don't know if they were attempting to see if the metal could be penetrated, or if something—or if that's where the thing came from, maybe it was shot down. Um, but that was the only one where I saw there was, you know, actual physical damage to it.

And that one was roughly the same size?

They're all, uh, they were kind of too far away to tell.

Did there—was several teams that were working on the propulsion system? So there was different teams that were working on these different aircrafts?

I—I don't know. I could only assume.

Now, when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking at this otherworldly craft, your—your goal is to try to figure out how this thing functions. Your goal is to try to figure out how this reactor. I mean, but you would imagine they would give you more time than just one day to check that out?

Oh, yeah, it wasn't one day. Right? Yeah, I mean, this is—Barry was there. I think Barry was sleeping there. I'm sure they had—now that—that isn't weird. I mean, up at the Tonopah Test Range where they work on stealth fighters, you know, you go, I think, three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up there too. So it's not weird to stay up at the test site, right? So, um, yeah, I think he pretty much didn't—he acted like he's been up there for a long time. Yeah. Um, but he's still there. Yeah, who knows?

Do you—do you have contact with this guy?

No. Oh, no, I wish I did. I kind of thought he was going to come out after I did, right? And I think I took so much flack and it's so much bullshit for what went on. I think I actually—I wound up helping security there, and everybody became afraid of, you know, doing or saying anything after that.

What kind of reports did you have to give? Like, so you're not making much progress, right? You're just trying to figure out what this thing is, and it seems impossible. So—

Well, we didn't personally make them. I mean, we were always—there was never a lot of information that we gained. Um, the guy you would call him our supervisor, his name was Dennis Mariani, and kind of a military-looking guy. And he would routinely pop in, you know, during the day, and, you know, "Hey, what's going on, guys?" And he would essentially relay any information, anything new we came up with. I mean, he was our go-between, you know, where we presented him the information, then he took it to wherever they were, you know, assembling all the data from everybody.

No, I assume you're working normal days, like an eight-hour day?

No, no, no. It was really weird that I would be only called in on certain times and certain days, and they would be weird hours too. Most of the time was later in the evening. I mean, I can get a call at 11 o'clock at night, and they'll say, you know, "It's now 11 o'clock. Um, by 11:45, you need to be at McCarran Terminal, and, um, you know, we'll let you know when we have more information."

But what did you do while you were there if you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't figure out what it is or how it works, other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about?

Sure, I mean, the thing was to—what you do in, you know, with anything, if you're trying to analyze it, all you can do is perform tests. And all we did is try and come up with every kind of test we possibly could. I mean, we tested, you know, it—it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate. I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics. I mean, essentially, any machine, any device that operates, always makes extra heat. Nothing works at 100% efficient. Even the headphones you're wearing, anything that takes power, some of that power is going to be converted to heat, and it's just wasted. This didn't. I mean, we looked at—back then we had infrared cameras. They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and, um, and get these infrared images you've seen. But it never got—no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above the ambient temperature, which is impossible. I mean, you're, you know, pulling out huge amounts of power, and nothing ever gets warm. We tried measuring magnetic fields, and there was—was nothing there. So we started playing around with the emission from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could do with it and how it was focused. So we really spent all our time just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control.

So you were seeing what it could do, but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it?

No, not really. I mean, we really—we really could only use a—or come up with a best guess. And now I can't say we really—that I could absolutely state for certainly or certainty how anything actually worked.

Now, how do—did you know at all how they were piloting it? Because some—they were doing some tests where they're having these things fly around in the sky, and this is what gets us deeper into your story, right?

Um, I was out there for, uh, one test. Um, right. In fact, I was in with Barry in the lab, and Dennis came in and said, "Uh, we're about to run the test. Why don't you guys come out?" Or I think he said, "Barry, why don't you come out here and bring Bob with you?" Uh, we went out there, and the craft was already outside the hangar and was just preparing to lift off. Now, they were in communication with somebody in the craft.

So there's a person in the craft?

Yeah, there was certainly a person in there. Now, it's not a comfortable place to be in because it's small, so the guy has to be sitting on the floor in the middle, uh, my best guess. And this is the same specific craft that you heard that was—because you were—that was the only craft that you were—the only one that I—I touched and worked on. Um, and it—it quietly lifted off the ground, which was incredibly impressive to see.

Quietly or silently?

Well, quietly because it didn't make sense. It produced, um, a little corona discharge from the bottom. A corona discharge is kind of a high-voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge. As it was lifting off the ground, you can hear a slight hiss sound. Now, as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or ten feet, maybe even less than that, the hissing stopped, and the blue glow disappeared. So it lifted off quietly, and then it hovered silently, if you want to be specific.

Wow. So then what kind of maneuvers was it doing?

It took, uh, for that particular time, it took off, moved a little around—around to the left and right, and then sat back down. The, um, the craft itself, um, they communicated with it with a reg—because I saw the guy talking in a regular VHF radio to the person in the craft. And I even saw the frequency that was on the—the frequency counter of the, uh, communication—the transceiver there. Um, but what's weird is he shouldn't be able to communicate with the craft with a radio. The radio—the radio wave should bend around the craft. I mean, it shouldn't be possible. Every single thing about these—the craft and the way they operated—didn't make any sense to us. I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after. Why should the frequency bend around the craft?

Well, you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft. There's a—the reactor's in the center, and there's a waveguide that goes up to the top. There's actually a small appendage that sticks out at the top of the craft, and it produces a heart-shaped gravitational distortion around the craft. Now, if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up, you actually cannot see the craft. The light bends around it. Your bending gravity bends light, it bends radio waves. It's, um, it—it shouldn't be possible to communicate with a craft that has an envelope around it that's distorting all forms of energy. But they were apparently in contact with it somehow or another, through some unexplained way that they don't bother explaining to you.

So this thing gets up, it just does some very simple maneuvers, left, right, left, right, goes down. Um, and did they discuss this with you? I mean, they said they wanted you to see it?

No, they—they just wanted—no, they—they didn't discuss anything with me. It said it sat down. We looked around for a bit, and Barry said, "Let's go back." We went back in the lab. All we got to do is see it. Um, fast forward to some months later, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft. Now, they had times. They had designated high-performance tests. This obviously wasn't one that was a high-performance test. The high-performance test went—goes above the mountain range, and they do much more radical moves with the thing. Look, this is a prized item, and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that. They just play with this thing right over the test site. But they were doing some radical moves with it, and since I had the test flight schedule, statistically, the amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on—

The highway was lowest on Wednesdays, and that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays. Because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on. And this was before the government had expanded the forbidden territory around Area 51 and Papoose Lake and all that stuff, right? Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came out. Then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there, and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back. But yeah, that, I think, all that occurred long after.

I'm sorry that I came out. So you're working there, and while you're working there, you're under this crazy schedule. Forgive me for explaining your story, but you would get these phone calls. You would have to go to the airport at 11 p.m. And your wife started thinking that you were having an affair. Yeah, apparently so.

Um, now, I did give my permission to have, you know, as part of the, you know, security clearance process, um, I gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things of that sort. So they weren't doing any covert stuff. They, um, you know, with any Q clearance or which is civilian top-secret clearance or military top-secret clearance, they go talk to friends and, you know, places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign countries. But, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual. However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife, whatever, about what's going on. So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored.

Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too. Well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor. Now, they were monitoring this on the phone, and they knew it, and I didn't. So they stopped me coming in. And their attitude at the time was, "We need to see how this is going to play out. And if Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything, so let's just, you know, hold him off from coming in and, you know, see what happens."

And they explained this to you? What was happening? Well, after the fact, yeah. Because time kind of went on, and there were guys that were following me around, and I started getting a little concerned, going, "Well, Ted, are they booting me out of the project? And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job knowing what I know." So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned. And I took my closest friends and just kind of got together and I said, "Hey, remember that job I told you about? This is what's going on." And, uh, like, "You don't need to take my word for it. On Wednesday night, we need to all go out here. I want to show you what's going on." So I took everybody, and we went out to, um, remember, since I had the test flight schedule, and went outside the base out into the desert. And so everybody could see, you know, one of the high-performance tests. And, you know, it left quite an imprint on everybody.

So they knew I wasn't. And there's videos of these tests, right? Yeah. But remember, this is in the, it's in the dark in the '80s with a big monster-sized camcorder, and you got, you know, a bright light jumping around. But, uh, yeah, I mean, we did video of it. But there's no, by today's standards, it's. But is your video specifically available? The video that you took? Yeah. Well, George Knapp has it. Is it? I have no idea. Jeremy, yeah, I show clips of it in my film. It's, it's online. And someone did a deep analysis of it. Uh, it was interesting, uh, to take a look at how well this microphone up to your face, about a fist from your face. All right. Um, you know, to see how his video looks now. But as far as video evidence, I mean, we are talking '80s camp.

The most important thing is the human story here. Everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions, they don't all like each other. They don't all talk. They all agree on one thing: they saw something that night at the exact point in time and space that Bob Lazar said. And remember, this is 17, 15, 17 miles south of Area 51. No one even knew really about Area 51. We're talking Papoose Lake. And they all agree they saw something that night they had never seen before, and they've never seen since, right when he said it. So that's one of like the six things where I'm like, "How did he know?" You can dismiss him. I tried to dismiss it, but some things we can't get around. And there's about five or six of them.

How did he know about this? If Jamie wants to find that video right now, what would he look under? Bob Lazar UFOs for Area 51, just kind of like that. Uh, so it's like this S4 UFO video, Bob Lazar, and a guy does an analysis. But you're not analyzing these '80s videos, right? He, from the very beginning, Bob never said, "I have proof of my story and I'm going to tell the world." He said, at the very beginning, "I cannot prove my story." That's not why I'm telling this. George Knapp convinced him to tell people, and he lived through it. And I, I didn't believe it either until I talked with George.

Okay, so you filmed these, this test flight, one test flight, and then you get caught. Actually, it was, I think, the third time. Because it, we went out there the first time, everybody saw it, everybody was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers. And, you know, everybody had a lot of maneuvers that I've seen. I've seen the video. It doesn't, I don't think there's something we have now that does that. No, in terms of like a human-piloted craft. I mean, I don't know, obviously with the government. No, it's impossible. Nothing can move like that. And remember, we didn't start filming from the very beginning. You know, we were waiting for something, you know, to happen. The craft took off and then came flying at us, stopped, you know, turned a right angle, flew back. And then, you know, after it did some, you know, amazing stuff, to get the camera, and then we started filming. So it doesn't have all of it on there. It just has some.

The way I describe it to my friends, and they said, "What does it look like?" I said, "Take a laser pointer and then have a wall and then move it around the wall." Like, you know how it moves around the wall. It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with inertia or physics or it's not impeded in any way by the atmosphere. Yeah, that's what it looks like. You're essentially separated from reality, as crazy as that sounds. With it being in, in case it's an own gravitational envelope, inertia is not going to affect it. And, you know, this is, this is how some of those recent sightings of Commander David Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the UFO. I mean, he describes exactly that. The thing operates exactly the way I was describing. That's why he was interested to talk to me. Um, but we saw this, and, you know, on the way home, it's like, "Hey, we got away with it. We should try it again." The next test flight date. So this became a thing to do. And I think it was on the third time that we got caught. I mean, we started becoming a little careless. I think we took a motor home out there. You know, I mean, it was like the stupidest thing you could possibly start tailgating. Yeah, it was ridiculous. And, um, again, you're in your 20s. Yeah. And, you know, what was funny was, um, we went out there, and my friend Gene Huff and I were leaning on the front of a vehicle, and just for some reason, we just started talking [ __ ] like, uh, "Well, I hope they realize that, uh, I don't remember what we were saying, but, you know, that something about attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that." And, um, then about 20 feet in front of us, we see a little green light fall on the ground and roll to us. And unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black, you can't see your hand in front of your face. There were a bunch of guards standing right out there, and they had a night vision scope where they were like, from here to the wall, looking at us, listening to us. And the guy dropped it, and the scope rolled over to us, and you could see the green screen. You know, we turn the lights on, and all these guys are there. So it was, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught, as we should have.

So when they catch you and they bring you in, then what happens? Well, I went in for debriefing the following day. I went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a defunct base that they used to use at the nuclear test site. And this is when they brought out, um, the transcript of the phone call with my wife. And, you know, they sat me down and we said, you know, "When we meant to keep the secret, we meant you can't tell your friends, right?" You know, and it just being sarcastic and trying to. Mm-hmm. Um, and then they got real serious. Uh, but this is where they, you know, took the transcript out and were reading me what, uh, my wife and, you know, our friend were talking about. And it was a hard time.

So what happens from there? What do they do with you? Why don't they arrest you? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure they exactly knew what to do, but they did let me go that night, and I went home. And this is kind of when the most stressful part started because you're realizing you're being monitored. Yeah. Now I know not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble. And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted, you know, at that time, the only investigative reporter I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp. And, you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point.

So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, tells it, puts it online, and makes everybody aware of it. And that's how I found out about it. Yeah. To make a long story short, what happens? Yeah. To really make a long story short, what happens from there on? I mean, do they contact you and say, "Hey, Bob, it's probably a good idea if you shut up"? How did they try to label you as crazy? Was there? There were, boy, there were a lot of things that happened at, you know, between that point. Um, I'm leaving out a lot of stuff to fill in the story. We'd have to go back to Los Alamos and, and well, I really don't want to talk about that. The, um, top-secret weapons stuff that you were working on. No, I'm talking about the 115. Um, well, I don't know. I have to think about how I'd. What is the problem? I don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting something. So, um, I just have to dance around a couple.

He was created just during the filming of the movie. People thought the movie's great, by the way. Thanks, Joe. And it's on Netflix right now if anybody wants to check it out. And if you're one of those people like me who, you know, I've always loved the idea of UFOs, I became extremely weary talking to people who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of [ __ ] and not just full of [ __ ], they're childishly delirious. The way they talk about things. I mean, there's so many people that are, that I'm in contact, they reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong. And like, you're like, "Okay, this is one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show." Well, it's, I mean, it's no joke. We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn. And, you know, in some ways, I can relate to some of these people. You know, maybe some of them did really have some kind of experience or saw something, and all their friends think they're crazy. But hey, now there's this guy I heard on the radio, and at least he knows I'm not full of [ __ ]. So I gotta talk to him. And so most of the correspondents I get are people trying to get a hold of me going, "Bob, you, you gotta listen to me. I'm coming to talk to you. I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever." And, and, but some of them are just [ __ ] bad [ __ ] crazy. Yeah, they're frightening. There's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the conspiracy world. So there's a lot of people that have real issues. Joe, it would be a disservice to your audience to not say that we have to look at what's going on now and understand. I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now. And to not really understand what's going on now, you can't see Bob's story in the correct light after 30 years. And at some point, we should just touch upon that. Um, the biggest being that things like the Tic Tac UFO case that came out. I've heard people even on the show say, "Oh, there's a glitch in the radar." That's a data-poor perspective. You just don't know yet what's really going on. Commander Fravor, I was able to get the interview with him to talk with him way before it became public. I got that from him. He saw it. Other pilots saw it. This is a big thing that's going on right now. They had more sightings on the East Coast recently. Cubes with spherical auras. These are not aerodynamic. And these are the people we trust to defend us. On 9/11, Commander Fravor protected Los Angeles. And 9/11. So we trust them. But they're not trained observers. Radar individuals see these things. And the big, the big one, just to throw down so we can consider a story a little differently. There's more depth to it. The big one is the United States government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the UFO phenomenon. That program was called A Tip. Advanced Air, or sorry, was called AWSAP. That's the mother program. George Knapp got that out. They announced through the New York Times about a Tip. But awesome, these acronyms. ASAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Applications Program. Who cares? That was the mother program. So they've admitted, we didn't stop studying UFOs in 1969 with Project Blue Book. We don't think it's crazy. We actually want to reverse engineer the technology. That's why on your other show, you said, "What's this AAV thing?" It's like they're making up another UFO name. Well, hold on. There's a reason because in the documents, the DIA documents that George Knapp released, that everybody said was fake till now, they know is real. They call them AAVs, which is Advanced Aerospace Vehicles. People are getting the acronyms wrong. So the reason for the terminology change is so that we can mimic what we're reading in the DIA documents. People can look for that now. So they changed the names to get people away from UFO or UAP. Even like Hillary Clinton said on air, right? So what are you talking about? Hillary Clinton? Hillary Clinton informed the public on Jimmy Kimmel. Oh, Jimmy, we don't call them UFOs anymore. We call them UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon. Right? So she kind of was giving their, the Clintons are very into the UFO topic. Senator Reid, you know, he's done a lot for the, for the subject, the study of it, right? So she informed the public so they could look for the right term. So these terms are important because the DIA, in those documents, they've been calling them AAVs for quite some time now. And they changed the name to anomalous. No, that's kind of a misnomer. So they always mess around with things. But it's actually advanced. Right? But when they're describing it in the news, they were calling an anomalous space vehicle. Totally. And that's cool. They were also saying anomalous aerospace threats, AAT, right? Because they want the sense of a threat, right? So my point is, all of, if people don't know this now, and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it that we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great data from visual pilots to radar, that's why we know it's aerospace. They dropped from 80,000 feet. But guess what? That's the top scope of the SPY-1 radar is 80,000 feet. So the radar system they were using, it was coming from above that. So my point is this, if you don't understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information because of the stigma that you're talking about. I saw you get totally upset with the UFO topic. I met you first when you're totally upset with the UFO topic. It's the people when, when, when you're doing your, I'm sorry, man, when you're doing your show, you know, Joe questions everything. I could see how frustrating. Trust me, I have been frustrated to hell. Luckily, my mentors, George Knapp, and he's taught me the pitfalls as I went through it. My whole point in this rant right here is just that we have to now look at Bob's story, but knowing the facts, not someone saying it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a glitch. They're not. And so if you don't know that, you just don't have the information yet. Not just that, knowing the facts as we know them in 2019, not in 1988. Absolutely. And so what has he said that has come true? He's totally unimpressed with it, right? What has he said that has come true? So I was like, "Bob, they've announced gravity as a wave." "You were right, man. You're vindicated." And he looks at me and he's like, "Well, if you think about it, Jeremy, I had like a 50/50 chance." He was not very impressed, right?

When did they announce gravity as a wave? So they detected, in a sense, they detected gravity waves. Who were they? You might know more. There's two black holes that were colliding, and that's how they were able to detect. Yeah, somebody, Bill, I don't know which group it was or what part of the government. That's what Google's for. Yeah. Would it, but they, you know, built a gigantic gravity wave detector and pretty much detected that there are such things as. First observation of gravitational waves. It says it was in 2016. Okay. The first observation of gravitational waves was made on September 14th, 2015, as announced by the LIGO and Virgo collaborators on February 11th, 2016. Previously, gravitational waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems. The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories matched the predictions of general relativity for gravity for a gravitational wave emanating from the inward sp, I'm trying to get this from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around 36 and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole. Well, that, I mean, yeah, it's not. He was in the '80s. The predominant theory was gravity is produced by gravitons, okay? You know, part of theoretical particles. But they're not waves, they're not particles. And that's so the thought is that the way we experience gravity, it's based on mass, which is why the moon, which is roughly one quarter the size of the Earth, has one sixth of the Earth's gravity. So there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass, right? And remember, we can observe the effects of gravity, but we have no idea what it is. All we can do is observe it, and we can't make it. The only way you can make gravity is just put more mass together, and it's just a product of gravity. But if you can make a, if you have a machine that makes gravity, you can pretty much do anything. You can affect time, you can have force fields. All that stuff that's in science fiction becomes reality if you have a machine that can make gravity. And what we worked on in the desert was a machine that makes gravity. I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear reactor to the Victorian era. I love that analogy because back then, that was impossible. That was magic. What you're talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this four years ago, that this is a wave, when we're, as much as we know, and as impressed as we are, as we should be, with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet, we're still in many ways in the adolescence of technological innovation. Absolutely. Absolutely. If even adolescence. And when you're talking about this binary star system, Zeta Reticuli, and who knows how much longer these things have been around than us, who knows what their evolutionary cycle's been, who knows what I mean? We might be talking about something that's a million years more advanced than us. Yeah. Yeah, it could easily be.

Now, I'm not, believe it or not, I'm not into UFOs. I don't follow stories or, you know, even after your experiences. No, I'm fascinated with the technology. And I, it really irks me like every night I go to sleep that, you know, I don't, that it was my own doing essentially that prevented me from continuing on in the project. I mean, it's the, to be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me. Right? But, you know, by the same token, I don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from. I mean, the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by. But so I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort of thing. But George Knapp is, I mean, he's the guy that has the context and tries to thread everything together. And what he recently told me is he found, I don't know, is either documentation or people that he spoke to, it's at this, the existence of this project, the project that I was on, it's something that they seem to take out every eight or ten years. So that's a very specific memo. And this is actually, I, this is the first time I'll be very clear with people about it. It's a big topic of conversation right now. It's called the Wilson Memo. You can look it up. Admiral Wilson met with a scientist who's actually was featured in one of my films. Everybody has been debating whether or not this document of a conversation with a sitting admiral at the time is a real document. It's an actual conversation that happened. And this document is real. Everybody wants to know. The world is going crazy right now in the UFO world. I'll tell you straight up right now, I'm in the position to know, and it is a real document. That it is real. So the conversation you read in that, that conversation was had. I can't attest to everything. You're not being very clear. Sure. Please. No problem. So there was a document that is circulating right now that is really big. It's going around everywhere. People are asking, "What is this talking about?" It's called the Wilson Memo, is what how you can find it online. Or the Wilson Leak. There it is. Jimmy's got it. The Wilson Memorandum. Use of human volunteers. No, no, no, no. Yeah. So, uh, Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist, and they have this discussion. Oddly enough, at Special Projects at EG&G. And if I remember, the document is from 2001. I'm telling everybody right now, it's real. And we'll see. My history is pretty good with like saying if something's real or not, right? So here we go. The document comes out. They meet at EG&G Special Projects in 1989. They stumble into a problem. This happens. They put the technology away, and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress. So this document kind of talks about this process. The big thing I get from it, and a lot of it's vindicating to Bob, and one of the things that's vindicating besides the EG&G thing is that private industry. So this guy's an admiral, and he says, "I found out about your SAP, your Special Access Program. I need to know about it." And he's going to a private part of industry, and he is denied access. And he says, "I, you know, I should be running this program." And they were able to deny him access. So I think the takeaway here is, check it out. I'm telling you that that is an actual, correct, that is a leak. Now, everything said in that document, I don't know. What are you talking about? What is said in that document specifically? It's, it's between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting, and they're having a meeting, and they're talking about the, the search for the, the UFO subject, the search to get Special Access Program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs. So in this document, they talk about it. Uh, I believe that this document, the person that went was employed by Robert Bigelow, you know, one of the guys that has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff. Who's the guy? Owned Skinwalker Ranch. No, he's not. He was the guy. Walker. Okay. Yeah, he used to own it. There's a new owner, and I interview him for my other film. But there's a new owner, and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon. But like, it'll just, there's, there's stuff that you'll be hearing about Skinwalker Ranching because there's a new owner. Anyway, the whole point of this, you know, insertion here is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea. Bob just said that they make a little progress, then they can't go anywhere, they tuck it away, and then they bring it back out, you know, 10 years later, and start working on it.

What is the limiting factor? I think Bob should speak on this, but it's the material science. Yeah, it's really where physics is. So I can see them doing that. I mean, I didn't have any information on that, but I think what, you know, George uncovered is probably accurate that, you know, we try and do what we can, and once we reach a roadblock on, we really can't figure it out, it's just friggin wait, put the thing away, wait for science to catch up, and, you know, a decade later, let's take the project out again and see. All right, now, where can we go? But there's got to be someone who remains informed, right? Oh, yeah. You've got your scientists like you and Barry. You've got your people that you compartmentalize. You've got these people working on. Yeah, there has to be some people, right, that know everything? You've got security, and then someone's going to be on the outside saying, "Hey, we need people to guard this building. Don't let anybody in for ten years." I think I think a lot of that is private industry. And I think that's how they keep it. Yeah, I think that's how they literally, because the government is just so leaky. I think that's kind of what they're doing. That's what the document kind of proves. You just articulated that that it is in control of private industry. What private industry? Some aerospace company? Something? I don't know. Yeah, they wouldn't. They would, the guy with the admiral wouldn't name it in the car, right, in the conversation, right? So they still have these things, supposedly? I would guess. I mean, I don't have any information. Have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them or how they got them? No, but something must have been said to me from Barry, but I, it was just too long ago, and I can't quite remember what was said, but it just left a seed in my mind. I think at least one of them was part of an archaeological dig. So it's old. Something. One at least one of them is old. I don't know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with an archaeological dig. Whoa. So that's, uh, that means it's not just old, it's ancient. That'd be a great Stephen Spielberg movie. Yeah, right. [Laughter] As all of it would. Yeah, that took me out when he said that for the first time. Yeah, that's a freak out right there. Just a couple of dudes with some brushes looking for a Tyrannosaurus Rex bone and metal. And when did they find it? You know, they have nine of them. Well, and how could we have not heard about that? What about the guys with the brushes? How could you uncover something like that? And Joe's newspaper at home does. I mean, they said it on that first day. Oh, you mean the Roswell? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You told me. Yeah, yeah. I have a cover. What is this here, James? It's the document. But I had to do some digging to find it. Yes. It's just kind of, yeah. So this is where they meet at EG&G. And this is Admiral Wilson. And there's a lot more coming out now. I want to be clear. George didn't put this out. He didn't leak this out to anybody. This is. I can tell you how I recorded this conversation. So this was an employee of at the time, Robert Bigelow. And this is in 2002, right? Do you remember when he had that government contract called AWEAP? The world all knows about now. And he had NIDS that studied the ranch. So that 22 million, everybody is saying it was for ATIP, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The 22 million dollars was for AWEAP, that was pushed through Congress, three congressmen, an astronaut. It was pushed through. And that's what that 22 million dollars. By the way, they spend more money on Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs, if it was just this program. Which I think is funny. But they probably make a lot more money from fragrances. They probably do. UFOs? Well, you never know how it seeds into the population. But anyway, this program, this is what was the mother program. So it got the 22 million, and really, it was to study Skinwalker Ranch, oddly enough. That 22 million all was inspired by the phenomenon they were seeing at Skinwalker Ranch, because the scientists, they're seeing vehicles come through like a space in the sky. Yeah, we went there. I went through it. Yeah, we interviewed a bunch of people that seemed full of [ __ ], but a couple that didn't. But it's very, very interesting. Totally. Any, there's, but if you look, I spent a lot of time in the area. I'm not talking about those stories. I'm saying there were scientists hired by the government, right, through Bigelow, to study the ranch because they thought it was important. And, you know, whatever, whatever the point is, that 22 million was to study that. Then we have ATIP, which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings, like Commander Fravor's and that sort of thing. This document is just one of those things that has now come forward that through the Bigelow studies, it was government funded, and then it was personally funded, and then government funded. It's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial materials that they can't study it. So that's the claim right now. Give it some time, let people dig more into this. It's fascinating, man.

So you are essentially, you're kicked out, right? You're out of this program. You can't work with these crafts anymore. And do they give you any threats? Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out? Yeah. Well, I mean, the way it ended was, um, I told George Knapp all this stuff. And, you know, he said, "Well, let's just get it on tape. Should something happen, at least we have a record of it." And, um, I don't remember what the emphasis was, but at some point, George wanted to air it. And he said, "You know, you make the call on it. And look, if at any point you change your mind, we won't air it." And it came down to the day where George wants to put her on the five o'clock news. He said, "Hey, this is important stuff. People have to know about it." And I thought it was too. Either it's kind of a crime. I know you've got to keep the technology secret, but you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on, that we have, you know, actual hardware from another civilization. It's a big [ __ ] deal, you know, probably the biggest one there ever was. And, um, George said, you know, "Today's the day. We got to put it on the news." Or something to that effect. And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind and I said, "We're not doing it." And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George trying to get the tape. But he won because he was a bigger guy. So he actually physically wrestled. Well, I think it was more of a pulling match. We were, I don't think we ever hit the ground, but he got the tape, he put it in the player, and boom, five o'clock news was on. And then, um, I got a call after that, and they said it was from Dennis. He said, "You have any idea what we're going to do to you now?" And he hung up the phone. That was the last communication I had with him.

And what has happened to you since then? After that, a lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS. People had, anybody I know that had clearances that worked in secure programs, had the clearances pulled. One of them, a friend of mine, one of mine that Jeremy knows, he's going on camera with me soon. He'll tell the story now that he's out of work up there. He was working up at the Tonopah Test Range, waiting for his clearance to come through. And, you know, they pulled that. It became, it's like, if they can't get the person that's involved, they just create a problem for everybody that surrounds them. And so, I mean, the way it turns out, it hurt a lot of people's lives that I was connected to. And that's an effective way of shutting someone up.

Did you feel that by coming forward and going public, they couldn't just snuff you out? That was, I mean, that's what I was told. And George and everybody, you know, said that, "You got, oh, it's, you know, it's public. There's, you know, no one will touch you." And I, I fell for it. And I wish I didn't. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes when it's just overstressed, and people are camping on your lawn. But it's, this is going to make things worse. Doing this? No, this is going to make things better. I was trying to tell them. How is this going to make things better? Because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who are not only work in the government, people that are police officers and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to empathize, emphasize, empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with one of the most, if not the most important discovery in the history of human beings. The big question: Are we alone? It's the number one question. There's two questions, right? What happens when we die? And are we alone? Those are the two big questions, right? And if we're not alone, and someone knows we're not alone, and these some people who know we're not alone, are these bungling sort of? Even if they weren't, it's a crime that they're not telling the rest of us. But I mean, I don't mean bungling in terms they're incompetent. I mean, they can't be competent. It seems to me to what you're describing that no one can be competent with this technology, like the Victorian era scholars analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor. There's no way.

Why do you think, beyond that, why do you think they're not telling us? Let's just make an assumption that this is true right now. Why do you think that they're not telling us? That our government doesn't tell us? What's your best? Well, let me put it into, what would you do? If I'm the president, okay? And I get this information. What do I do with this? What do I do with this? There's something that we don't know. There's something we don't understand. There's something that came from another world. We got it tucked away in the mountains. And just wanted you guys to know about it. Hey, sleep tight. Hey, American motto's on tonight. Who do you think's going to win? Yeah, who's going to win? America. One is uncertainty, and the other one is what Bob and I have talked about a lot. Absolutely not knowing what to tell people because you don't really understand it yourself. Even though you've got, what do you say? If you want to run a government, you want to get people to pay their taxes. But there's something else. Yeah. What do you say? So you have these objects, fine with impunity, right? And you, you have something else. Well, not only that, what can you say? Like, how much do you really know? I think it's mainly the technology. Yeah, they just want to keep the technology secret because if there's, yeah, whoever gets this dude, you literally become invincible once you master the technology. You can't, you cannot penetrate a field like that. So imagine that's, I know it's all science fiction, but science fiction turns into science fact. If you have real force fields around aircraft and battleships, you win. You win. You can force your will upon anybody. And, like I said, there's so much more to the story. When I was first there, um, there were Russian scientists at S4. That was, this was early on in the project. So this was before Operation Paperclip became public as well, right? So I would imagine that was, I don't know what the date. Yeah, when was that? When did, was that '98? I think '98. Yeah, yeah. I don't know the dates on it. So it's roughly 10 years later. Operation Paperclip becomes. Freedom of Information. Actually, it's about Russia, not Germany. He's not a Russian scientist. Yeah, but I mean, Russian scientists. A lot of them came from Germany. A lot of those rocket scientists that work with NASA, they all came from Nazi scientists. Got it. So some Russians got some of them. I just know that. And at some point, there was intense cooperation with even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons and, you know, EMP tests and stuff. Things we would never have discussed with them. But at the same time, it was in the late '80s. Uh, they were involved and actually in the area at S4 with us. So you got to communicate with these guys, or you saw them? No, I knew they were there. Barry, Barry would talk about the commies that were there. The communities. The commies. And that was back when they were the commies. And at some point, it wasn't our group, but at some point, there was a big discovery made. And this did not happen when I was there. It happened in between my trips to there and after that. Apparently, they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody, and the Russians were never allowed back on the base after that. But you don't know what that discovery was? No. No, like I said, it wasn't my group. So one of the other groups really found out something. But the, you know, in typical American fashion, it's all right, this is ours. You guys get the hell out of here.

Was there any inkling that any other government had something similar? No. No, nothing that I had heard. See, that was the thing that always freaked me out was why, if something was so superior to human beings, it's almost like visiting an ant colony. Like, why would you go to the queen? I don't give a [ __ ] who the queen is. I'm a human. I'm so superior to ants. I don't care who you have running your hive. I'm just going to study it. I think it's who got it. Who got it? Look at the, you know, rocket technology in Germany. But they got nine of them. Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either. So they were either in the same area, or, you know, one had clues to where others were. I mean, I don't know. You have to fill that in there. But you're right. I mean, nine of them. That's a, that's a big dig. If it was archaeological.

Well, one of the more recent, recent sightings and these discussions that have been coming out recently from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots, they've been talking about things happening in the ocean, and that that something goes literally into the water, or something maybe below the surface. Thinking about water. 2004, Tic Tac, Nimitz case. So that's when George Knapp and I broke on the radio twice before the New York Times. So I know this one really well. Commander Fravor and those pilots, there was a disturbance on the surface of the water. Commander Fravor visually saw what looked like similar to a cross, some object. So it's like as if you have some like coral under the water, and you've got it's breaking over, right? The Tic Tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies, it's a gravity-propelled system. They saw it in the sky before they saw it in the water, right? Yeah. So there was, um, there were radar that was picking these things coming down from 80,000 feet, dropping to 50 feet in less than a second. This is it, Jamie. What is this? This is actually on the news today. There was a briefing. So a lot of people get this confused. Not this one, then either. No. So that is called the Gimbal. So there's three videos released by the Pentagon that are all active play. And keep the volume off. I would really just pay attention to the source video. So you've got the Tic Tac, which is this object Commander Fravor saw. Another pilot filmed it with a FLIR pod, and it goes. But this one, you see, is really important to Bob's story. The Gimbal craft. It's been recently analyzed. It's FLIR. Not only does it, it's definitive that it's not a conventional anything by the by its movements, but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source. So this object, by the way, sat stationary for days, if not weeks. It sat stationary. Yeah. They found it 11 hours later, and they were saying, "There's no way this thing, using that kind of energy to go that fast, could just hover the amount of time." And by the way, you're seeing a very small part of what happened that day. This object was not alone. And so hopefully that information comes out, and we can, I mean, I wish we had video of it. I'm sure we'd all want to see it. But that's called the Gimbal. That was East Coast, right? 2015. West Coast, 2004, was the Tic Tac. The disturbance on the water. Commander Fravor believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the Tic Tac was coming around to doing it. Inside the, the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the Tic Tac system was causing the disturbance. But the USO, Unidentified Submerged Object, that he visually saw. The whole interesting thing about that is I would love Bob to describe it. Is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space, air, or water. Why doesn't it matter? I love when he talks about this [ __ ]. Well, first of all, Commander Fravor was the F-18 pilot off the Nimitz that was sent out to find out what this stuff is. And it wasn't just, I got a chance to talk to him recently, and it wasn't just a radar image. I mean, Commander Fravor had eyes on it for over.

Five minutes watching this thing, as four other pilots did so. This wasn't a radar blip or anything. I mean, these guys were watching this thing. But, you know, one of the things I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft that we worked on flies, is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does. And it doesn't fly like a flying saucer in a 1950s movie. It flies belly first. I mean, it may set down conventionally, but it always rotates. It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards the target, and then moves away. So it's like a car flying with the wheels forward, right? Right. I mean, it may lift, land on the wheels, but at some point, when it wants to leave, flips, flips up, points the wheels where it wants to go, and takes off. And the gimbal video, you can see the craft do the roll maneuver. And, uh, it's really interesting. It behaves exactly like the crafts that I worked on. So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles, right? But they all have the same power source. They all have the same power source.

And we're also dealing with, if you think about the laws of technological progression, you know, you think of Moore's Law and you think of how things accelerate. You've got to think that if this civilization is, who knows how many years more advanced than we are, if not even years. I mean, I mean, we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms, right? The way the way we look at the world. I mean, they may, they might be just superior in terms of their intellect. They've got to be. Maybe, maybe we don't know, right? Well, the only reason I, I say that is because look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine, right? And go to an internal combustion engine, and then, you know, electric power, nuclear power, and go up the ladder that we. Right. Come on. Um, you know, the binary, if the stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system, and they have heavier elements that we don't have, and this element, stable element 115, is a naturally occurring material, maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with. And the version of their steam engine, their first product, was something that operated like this. And actually, when they came to Earth to look around, or, you know, whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing. These guys burned stuff and squirted out the back to go forward. So, right. Um, right. You know, who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that? My my thought was, if you went back to the 1400s, and then you went from 1400 to 1500, you're not going to see that much of a difference technologically, right? If you go from 2000 to 3000, I assume there's going to be a radical change, right? Well, the, yeah, the delta, the rate of change, is is magnificently higher than it used to be, right? So if you think about what they had in 1988, and you think about what they probably have in 2019, just logically, seems like they would advance. I would think so.

The only question is like, are they living? Is that a living thing in terms of like a biological thing? Or are they some sort of an artificially created creation like we are working on right now? I mean, we're in the middle of working on artificial reality, artificial beings, sentient beings, artificial intelligence. There's cons, silicon-based life forms that they're essentially trying to create. Boston Dynamics, or was it Boston Dynamics, the company? Robots. Yeah. You can make machines out of flesh, right? So a cyborg, or cybernetic organism, is just that. You know, that's what a lot of people think those like gray things are, you know, that people call the grays. Yeah. It's like they were like, they're machines printed from flesh. So what you're saying is like, well, they could just be, no, synthetic. They don't even need to be, you know, machines. Well, they seem to have no sex organs, the way they're described by people that have had interactions with them, assuming these people aren't liars, right? Or crazy, or whatever, right? That they have no sex organs, and that they don't seem to have any muscle. It's almost like a frame, right? And they have enormous heads. I mean, if you look at Australopithecus, or depictions of, you know, ancient hominids, and then you go to human beings, one of the things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies. Well, you see a clear progression of evolution too. Where for something like that, I would lean towards a synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task. There were no reproductive organs. So I mean, that almost kind of leaves out any kind of, you know, physical evolution, right? Well, that's also our bottleneck, right? Our bottleneck is our biological imperative, the the need to breed, emotions, fear, anxiety, all these different things that exist in order to force us into making sure we reproduce. I mean, that's essentially, there's human reward systems that aren't necessary once they can figure out a way to make some sort of sentient artificial life, some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have. By the way, these craft, all these different kinds, have been reported because it was confusing. I always thought of flying saucers. What I heard Bob Lazar talk about, flying saucer, right? But if you look back in history, people have always reported the weirdest shapes. Like none of them are alike, you know? There are the saucers, but you got cigar-shaped, you got, you know, the top hat shape, you have orbs. Why? Maybe they're serving different purposes. They're doing different things, like we'd use different tools. And I want to be clear, the reason I know that memo is real is because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, six man to walk on the moon, last guy to film him before he died. Right? That's how I know. I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from anywhere else. I know because of Dr. Mitchell. And he said the same thing, maybe these things are performing different tasks. You know, and that's what I seem. If you, if you think about what an alien is, in terms of our, our, the sort of iconic image of an alien, like the Steven Spielberg Close Encounters of the Third Kind alien, they seem like what we'd assume a human being would eventually become, right? And if these things are tiny, human beings are smaller than they've ever been before, they're weaker than they've ever been before, and there seems to be a trend in that direction. And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression. There, our lack of need for muscle strength, and our lack of need for violence. And we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have. If we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's uh quote, "We are the sex organs of the machine world." You know, that one day. Okay, I'll buy this. Yeah, McLuhan was brilliant. And that that quote has always been one of my favorites because, okay, what are we doing? When we're constantly technologically innovating, we're constantly looking for faster cars, better computers, bigger screens, faster, more resolution, more pixels, more this, more that, higher bandwidth, 5G, 10G, right? What are we doing? We're moving into this. In this, if you just follow it objectively, stand back, don't attach yourself or your civilization, your culture to it, and look at what it is. We're moving a hundred percent towards technological innovation. If you looked at this species from afar, and if you weren't a part of it, you would say, what does this species do? Oh, they make things. They make things better every year. Beehives are the same [ __ ] thing that you see 10 years ago. You go by, you see a beehive, it's amazing, it's cool, but they're the same [ __ ] thing. They figured out how to do it. They make a beehive, right? We don't do that. We make better things. What would you constantly? And at some point, I think that technology is going to fuse with us. Yes. And we're going to become. It's already happening. Yeah. Elon Musk talked about it on my podcast. That we are cyborgs. You just carry it in your pocket. It's a phone. It answers any question you want. You can talk to it. It'll give you the answers. The answers instantaneously. It navigates you. It has all your phone numbers. And it has all your contacts. You can get a hold of people. People listening to you through it. It's connecting us in ways. Even involuntarily. Haptics, that kind of thing. Yeah. It's also getting on your wrist. How many people have iWatches? Apple Watches? Right? And that's only because we can't integrate them yet. But you know, that point is 100. Yeah. I didn't joke about it last night, but I have a bit about it that I do about the, the integration between humans and technology. That's what. What would you do if you were a hyper intelligence? Right? Would you do the work yourself? Or would you create some cool things called like humans to do it for you? Would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines and do it for you? If you're a hyper intelligence that has kind of changed like you've described, you'd probably create workers, right? Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory. I'm not talking about conspiracy. But it is a kind of a conspiracy. I'm asking you. Well, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily that. I mean, you could look at it that way, but that is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it. The way I would look at it is like, there's obviously a progression going on. A biological progression. There's some sort of an integration with technology. There's some sort of imperative. This need for technological innovation. It's inescapable. Everyone has it. We. And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way. Because so many people work so hard to get new things. And like, God, that seems so illogical and preposterous. And it makes people unhappy. And depression's on the rise. But nobody seems to be able to stop it. Like, why is that? Well, maybe it's because we are the caterpillars that give birth to the butterfly. Maybe that's what we're doing. Very well. What our job is to do is to make some sort of a cocoon. And we don't even know we're doing it while we're doing it. Do you think a caterpillar is, well, hey, caterpillar, what are you doing, man? Just, I'm doing my thing. It's my job. I have to make a cocoon, then become like a body. This could be a natural part of evolution. It could be that we're just supposed to do this. Exactly. And make the jump to some sort of mechanized. Right. Yeah. Non-biological. An orangutan that is, uh, fishing with a spear. No, they, they've figured out how to fish with spears. There's, uh, there's, um, primatologists. Without somebody showing them how to fish. No, they've imitated human beings doing it. And now they do it. But they do it independently. They're not trained orangutans. They're wild orangutans. Look at that. There's a wild orangutan. Okay. That's impressive. Very impressive. Well, there's these primatologists, I guess you would call them primatologists. That's a term. That's a great biologist. Biologists that believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the great apes are moving into the Stone Age. That they've currently entered the Stone Age. Like they're not staying what they were a hundred thousand years ago or five hundred thousand years ago. But they're actively using tools. And they're experimenting with different, different ways to use those tools. And then they're making tools out of stone. They're making tools out of sticks. And they're, they're using them. Well, this might just be what happens. This might just be what happens. I mean, why else? Why the [ __ ] we work so hard? I mean, I, I was, I was driving to LA this morning. Um, I had a doctor's appointment. So I was on the 405 at, uh, eight in the morning. Like, Jesus Christ. Like, this is so crazy when you're in the 405 in LA at eight o'clock in the morning. You see literally a million cars. And this is everywhere you go. As people. But and also, I'm in a Tesla. So I have it on autopilot. So I'm there sitting. I'm listening to a podcast. I barely have my hand on the wheel. I'm not touching [ __ ] this car's driving me along. I'm not even doing anything. I'm just, I'm just hanging out. It's so much less stressful, by the way, to do that that way. Right? So it encourages you to innovate. It encourages you to embrace this new technology. I got this giant screen. It's showing me the navigation in front of me. I'll be there five minutes early. Excellent. And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly. It's Bluetooth screen streaming from my phone. And I pulled that podcast, which came out today, out of the [ __ ] sky. And I'm listening to it. And I'm all comfortable in my nice little car, just driving on my way to the doctor's office. This is irresistible stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Different than your Walkman. Yeah. You know, that can be irresistible. It is a resistance. It's frighteningly irresistible. But is it frightening? I mean, if you were a monkey, right? If you were, um, an Australopithecus, would you go, man, I don't want to [ __ ] be a person. I live in a house. That's [ __ ]. I like just swinging around on trees. I like, uh, running from jaguars. This is life, guys. Life is running from crocodiles. It's not living in a [ __ ] suburban. There's probably some that are like that. Yeah. I don't think so. I think I think when it comes, we're going to embrace it. We're going to embrace it the same way you embrace cell phones. The same way embrace television. There's going to be a few holdouts. I don't even have an email address, man. Those are those. There's a few and far between. The good luck with that [ __ ] face. Go move to the woods. Ted Kaczynski. Yeah. I was just going to throw Ted's against. Ted Kaczynski was right. This is something that I think about sometimes when I get really high. That Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies. This has been proven. Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his [ __ ] brain when he was at Harvard. And then when he went over to Berkeley and became a professor, his goal was to make enough money so that he could implement this program and live in the woods. And then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology. He was expunged from the Harvard, uh, logs, by the way. This is something my friend just called me about. So there's like this, uh, private library. And they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university. And he was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it. I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe. I want to be very careful with that word, conspiracy theorist. What I was, what I was saying to you was, we, we terraform our Earth, right? We terraform. We change the environment. We do all this innovation. What is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done? I'm not saying it is. I'm saying, what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level? You mean like aliens coming down doing that to humans? I'm telling you that there is something here that's there's a fact. You know, there's something there. A craft. They're here. They're not ours. They're here. So the question is, what is that about? And I'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology. I think it's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps and we observed that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us. And that they're recognizing that there is a pattern. That there is, uh, there's steps that happen. I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization. And that, you know, if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach this. I mean, we're in Type 1 civilization. We're going to stay at Type Zero. Well, we're in this warring, polluting, yeah, pillaging. We're awesome civilizations are awesome. It's like, well, we're awesome in a lot of ways, you know, but in that way, we're not. Well, yeah, we're, we're children that have immense power that we didn't really. The other thing is, you're using the immense power that other people have created, right? I mean, even when you're driving a car, you're stomping on the gas like, whew. You didn't invent the [ __ ] engine. You didn't invent tires. There's all these things that were in involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding. But yet you have the ability to use it. Like a person with a gun. I'm just gonna bang bang bang people. You don't, you didn't invent a gun. So like, you've, you've without the intellect to craft and engineer and and and manifest these creations, you just have access to them because you have paper, or you have Bitcoin, or you have whatever the [ __ ] you're using, using a credit card. Now you have almost no responsibility. You just, you could just flippantly use these things. Which is why we, uh, you know, we're very childlike in our actions because we haven't had to earn the responsibility. We haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have. And you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things. And then they've all put them together. And then what is the, what's the reason to put them together? To profit. Well, what's the reason of prop? Well, why are you doing this? So you can buy more things. What are we doing? What are we doing? We're making better things. That's what we do. That's all that's all we do is make better things. Yeah. Why the [ __ ] do we need oil? Why do we need oil? Why can't we just burn wood and stay home? Why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard? Why can't we do? Well, we [ __ ] can. We certainly can. People do do it. But we decide to make that almost impossible. Our preferred way of living is to stuff everyone into a very small area where no one grows anything other than weed. This is what LA is. LA is 20 million people with hard surfaces. As many hard surfaces as you can. Boy, if you've got an acre backyard in LA, holy [ __ ] look at all that green. This is amazing. Well, no, that's the [ __ ] earth coming through this weird sort of creation that we've put on top of the earth. But the goal is that like New York City, that's there's none of it, right? You just got, you've got Central Park. And they just got human [ __ ] you stacked up. No one's growing anything. And then constant work. Everyone's up early, go go go, innovate, progress, make that money so you can buy more things. And every year, hey Apple, where's this [ __ ] new phone? As if your phone isn't good enough. Yeah. Like your phone's taking pictures and videos, and people are calling you, and you got applications to tell you which way the wind's blowing. It's not good enough. A blink of an eye. Blink of an eye. It's all gone though. That, you know, like 10,000 years, and the Hoover Dam goes, or whatever, you know, Mount Rushmore disintegrates. So it's amazing because we have created that. And and everything's trying to spring up through that. We keep maintenance down. But we're, we're a blink. Something hits. But we don't think that way. Well, you know, you think in terms of your own life, right? You think in terms of what you want and what you need right now. You know, what it's, we are in many ways, this combination of this weird primitive ape-like thing with the ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment. That makes us wholly unique on top of that with existential angst and and fear. So what do you do with that? We [ __ ] water it down with the anti-depressants. Give these [ __ ] people some [ __ ] that keeps them moving. They're worried about the future. They're trying to figure out what reality is. If this, you're on a goddamn convertible spaceship spinning a thousand miles an hour, hurling through infinity. There's no meaning to this thing. Just keep making [ __ ] keep making stuff. And then one day, they're going to be able to hit that switch. And this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology. And more than likely, it's probably going to be what we're seeing. That these things are, that you're, you're observing. I'm not observing them. But yeah, someone's obviously. You're implying that they're us? I don't think they are us. But I think they are what happens when things keep going. It's not us. Just like we're not monkeys, right? I'm not a chimp. Oh, that'd be cool. They're from here, is your idea? No, no, no. That this is what happens all over the universe, right? Yeah. This is what happened. Look, here's the thing. You know, I went to see Brian Cox's, um, he has this amazing live show with Robin Ince where they have these LED screens, these huge screens with high resolution depictions of the cosmos. And one of the most mind-blowing things was he has this large-scale image of the universe. And it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe. And it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions. And it's [ __ ] incredible. But what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it. Even at, you know, I mean, you're obviously looking at an incredibly small depiction of something that's immensely large, like a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars. You're seeing it as this little dot. But this little dot that's flying through space, surrounded by other little dots with very similarly spaced distances. Yeah. Yeah. So, Mike, if we see uniformity in that form, in terms of like the distance between galaxies, so many galaxies, is so, it's so similar. They might vary slightly. And that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years. Right? But, but, but there's so much uniformity. Why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere? And that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar, you do see binary star systems, you do see single star systems, like stars. But there's also some, some speculation that Earth and that our solar system is one time was a binary star system. I mean, that's one of the, the speculations about that. That object that they find outside the Kuiper Belt that they think is 10 times larger than Earth. They think it might have been at one point in time, a star. But this, this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that that has its same implications biologically? That there's some sort of a biological uniformity. And that this happens given the right sets of circumstances. You should tell them some of the stuff that you read that you don't know is true. I mean, if the, the stuff was true about the propulsion stuff. I mean, anyway, he. Well, what have you read? What you saw too? And you know, what are you talking about? Spill the beans, Bob. I gotta poke the bear here. Let's get some more liquor in you. The, um, well, I mean, the, again, the, the only thing I could verify was what I had my hands on. Um, they were, you know, there was talk of weapon systems. That there were different projects. Project Galileo. Project Sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the craft. Project Looking Glass had to do with time. Any effects of time in the craft. Now, I don't think we're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction. But we're talking about, you know, small distortions, intentional distortions of time. And how that can be used, you know, as a, uh, not as a, well, it was part of a weapon program. How are you informed in this? These again, where there's just those small briefings that I read. But again, I don't really like to talk about those because I don't have any information on them. And it was just, you know, small briefings. But he told Commander Fravor that what he saw might have been a time dilation. Well, it could be because gravity affects time, you know, spacetime. I'm sure you've heard of that. And, um, you know, what, what Commander Fravor saw as he was in the F-18 approaching it, he said that he described it as a ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth. It was moving that fast. Now, obviously, if there's anything inside there, it, it's going to be battered to hell. But, you know, my point was was that, well, one of two things. Either there's a gravitational envelope in there, which negates any inertia effects. Or you are seeing through a gravity distortion field. So, you know, just like you're looking at a, a hot highway and you see, you know, an optical distortion going through there. Well, the same thing happens in gravity. And the craft may not actually be moving like that. It may just look like it because you're seeing, you can only see it through the field. So it may be making much more gentle moves. I'm not saying that's it, but it has to be one of the two. And the thing shows up 60 miles away. They noticed it on radar 60 seconds after left Commander Fravor. But it was at his cap point, which is the next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away. And in 60 seconds on radar, the same object ends up there. So it's going a mile a second. No, they, I think the radar just picked it up in 60 seconds. Yeah, it could have been there instantly. But, yeah, we don't know the cycle time. Nobody knows that. That's the whole thing. Oh, so it cycles like radar cycles. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't sweep. But I mean, it scans. Yeah. It's a planar array. So it just, you know, scans around it at random places. That's a Spy-1. Does the really cool. Yeah. It doesn't do the whole loop anymore, right? The point, the point is though, that the craft moved to his next location before he knew where his next location was gonna be. Jesus. And that's, I mean, that's well documented. So that's, uh, that's a pretty shocking piece of information. What's fascinating to me too, is that you were discussing this, um, the the way this reactor worked, and that these things were not really connected. No, nothing is connected. There's no wiring at all. That freaks the [ __ ] out. Charge your iPhone, you know? Yeah. One wireless. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's a simple electromagnetic. Yeah. I know. Again, but that's just simple electromagnetic induction, right? But I mean, Tesla, the scientist, had this concept of, right? He wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky. And Westinghouse was like, get the [ __ ] out of here with that. Like, when anybody could just pull electricity out of this meter. Yeah. They couldn't. They couldn't just talk in the car, right? Over and trying to chill him out. You know, we're talking about Tesla and how he, you know, he couldn't be metered. And how it all went down. So it's funny you bring it up. Yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, who knows what would have happened in terms of innovation had he been allowed to go forward with that? Well, we probably wouldn't have computers. You think? Yeah. I'm pretty positive. I mean, forget about microelectronics. Well, this is dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic energy in the air. And yeah, we'd be able to wirelessly turn on our lights. But there'd be no radio communication. The interference would be something we could, would be overwhelming. It would induce electric currents in anything with a small wire on it. So integrated circuits, transistors would be disintegrated before they were even, you know, tested for operation. So it, it would, it would destroy [ __ ] us up. Yeah. It would have stopped us dead. We'd have, it'd be great. You could turn lighters on and heaters from all over the place with no wires. But it would stop modern electronics. And if we became dependent on it, it would almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels. Although it's destructive, it's very difficult for us to get off the nipple. It would have changed the course of how we developed. Which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization, another star system, didn't even start with fossil fuels. They had 115 naturally on their planet. And they're like, cool, anti-gravity is pretty awesome. Well, the fact that I think it's important that that actually happened. Yeah. It might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason. Whoa. And it's just, it's, I think it's incredibly difficult for us to imagine technological progression under another timeline other than the one that we've experienced. Yeah. That's difficult. If we imagine what this alien race must have been like. And I mean, God, just to be able to see something take like, I mean, obviously we've seen it in different life forms, right? Like we see the life of certain beetles in comparison to the life of certain fish. Very, very different existence. Very different life cycles. Octopus. Yeah. Octopus. Yeah. I mean, we see all these different variables in terms of biological entities on Earth. But we don't see it in terms of technological innovation. As we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate. When we have intelligent creatures, but they're in the ocean. The only other things that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales. And they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment. And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment, we put them in fish tanks. And we're like, get in the tank, do some tricks. Right? You know, the only thing he saw in the craft, if we were considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw in the craft that he related to that looked like a human could make was this honeycomb hatch. And I always loved that because you're like, obsessed with this thing that you could recognize. You know, the re, yeah, I, I only focus on that because it was the one thing that I understood how it worked. What was it? And it was, it was the access to the level below. And it was, um, well, you know, if you take, uh, you have a six-pack of beer, and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table. You can put a lot of pressure on the top. But if you push it from the sides, it collapses flat. So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal. And you could walk on that in the upper layer. But if you took the corner, stuck your finger in, and pushed, it collapsed and made an entryway. So I thought that was a really unique. I'd never seen that before. And it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me. I said, ah, we can make that. And all that is is a hatchway. Was there any discussion about the materials that were used to make the craft? I'm sure there was. But that was a metallurgy division. Had nothing to do with us. So you never got a, not even the slightest briefing? I don't even know if it was metal or it was ceramic. It's, I think there's a fine line between the two. Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you, was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past. Yeah. Some sort of a ref, an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Alamos. In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos is someone got a list, a directory of the employees from the past and read into it. And you were on that list. So it proved that you worked there. Even though people were trying to deny and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Alamos, you weren't really a scientist. What was, what was that like to experience? I mean, of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the 1990s, when you could get away with something like that. Yeah. Obviously, there are a lot less, a lot less records on computers at that time. It was still file cabinets and folders. But, uh, yeah, that was frightening. That was one of the first things. I think it's, I think George Knapp was the first one that uncovered that. I mean, he saw my birth certificate disappear. He, um, disappeared? Yeah. There was no record of you. Yeah. There was no record of that. There was, uh, no record. His mom tells me about that. Like it was frightening for her. For he's got a real family. You know, he's a real person. It's frightening for her. But if the Los Alamos thing, it really surprised me. And that they were so adamant that, no, this guy never worked here. Don't be ridiculous. And George went back and forth, you know, for, I got the letters on the wall. Yeah. Months. I mean, it was ridiculous. But fortunately, somebody came up with a 1982 phone book directory. I mean, and also, originally, I told you, uh, you know, when I worked there, I was on the front page of the, the paper. So they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives. And, you know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los Alamos. So there was at least something there. But, uh, somehow George came up with the phone director. And then George then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we flew out there. And I said, look, come on in. I'll show you where I worked. We'll go in. We'll meet people. And George went with me. And, you know, I navigate the place. Oh, yeah. And, you know, met people. And, you know, and almost also the place where they had the machine that was able to read the, the size of your digits. No, no, that wasn't. That was S4. That was S4. And explain that. So now, this was back in the '80s. And this was back in the '80s where when you discuss this, people like, this doesn't even exist. Yeah. Okay. What was it? It was a way, you know, this is before fingerprint scanners and, you know, and anything of anything, any high-resolution scanner at that time. So what it was, was a device that, uh, had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it. So you could jam your hand in there. And there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath. And when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on. And it would measure the bones in your finger. Because the light shown through your bones. And apparently, the length of the bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure. And they use that when you put your hands on there, the light would turn on, and your badge would pop out. There's it right. Oh, there it is. That's that's it. And I tried to describe this, um, to people. And they said, that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard. And, um, I said, hey, that my badge came out of that thing. I put my hand on it, badge popped out. And that's how I could open the doors and get into S4. And, um, you know, and everybody discredited that. They said it was [ __ ] it was science fiction. And Jeremy, you found this. I found it through a good friend of mine named Tyler Rogoway. And he had some good sources inside of Area 52 where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time. So now I've got all these people that worked within who, you know, said, only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology. It's kind of [ __ ] actually. They didn't keep it for very long. Beginning of biometrics. So I was able to reveal it in my film. I kept my mouth shut until I showed it to Bob. You know, the movie is the first time he saw it. Was how you see it in the documentary. That's his genuine reaction. I'm getting goosebumps. That was a great idea. The way you did it. Thank you, man. Because, you know what? Guess what? I'm actually trying to see if he's telling the truth. That's how I started. You know, that's how I started. So it was really cool to see that. That you get to see it. His actual reaction. Has that been verified by other people? Yeah. So, yeah. So to me, it has, uh, personally, I get emails every day. And people are telling me where these are used and how they're used. And send me photos. I got a lot of photos of identity mats now. How they were used, right? They're not how they were used. Yeah. But, uh, I don't. The most recent one was way more recent than I thought. In another country. But yeah, that technology was used. So what's so funny is, um, that this technology, even in the Area 52, where they'd use him for Tonopah, one of the guys who will go on camera with me, he will do an interview with me. He was a technician for one of these. And he hated them because they were really bad. They always broke down. Never. And he was a technician for him. Now, he won't tell me where if he worked at Area 52. So it's probably Tonopah. It's very separated even on base. But yeah, so there was that. Yeah. There is your education record. That was also like, what happened with that? Well, that disappeared also. You know, that I, I've, I've never gone. I've never gone anywhere for education. I've never gone. I never attended any classes at Caltech. I never attended anything at MIT. You did attend classes in those places. I did attend classes in those places. Do you know anybody that you went to school with? Yes, I do. And have they verified that they went to school with you? Well, I gave Jeremy some names. But people, yeah. I, the reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mention a name, somebody gets injured. They don't want to be. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Um, but what, what is that experience like? Seeing your birth certificate erased? Seeing your employment? Well, it's frightening. It's, it's absolutely frightening. It's also the fuel that the debunkers use. The so-called air quote skeptics. I don't like the term skeptics. I'm going to say this publicly because I really only said this privately. I think it's a sloppy, lazy way to look at things to just be a skeptic. I want people to be objective. And I think there's a lot of things you should be skeptical of. I think you should, you should look at things and look at things from a hard-line science perspective. You should be subjective. But the idea of skeptics, the problem with that is you're always looking for things to be [ __ ]. Yeah. And I think that's dangerous because I think some things aren't [ __ ]. It's confirmation bias on the other end. You're just deciding to take a square thing and put it around hole, no matter what. And I find a lot of them to be lazy. A lot of them to be lazy thinkers. Sure. Because they're always putting it into that box instead of going, hmm. Instead of just separating their ego. They're trying, they're playing a game. And the game is calling [ __ ]. I want to call [ __ ] and I'm gonna line up all these reasons why it's [ __ ] and I'm gonna ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition. Yeah. Every time I'm thinking I'm going to catch him in something, you know, all along this process. Um, I found Dr. Krangel. He came forward and said, I was in security briefings with Bob Lazar, the physicist at Los Angeles. He went on the record with me. Now, the other people I talked with, why won't they go on the record with me? Because they're still working there. So that, that's the difference, right? What is that? What can the public have, right? Or even if they're not working there, that you know, they want to live their lives. Why? I mean, obviously people have seen what's happened to you. Mike Thigpen, after 30 years. Yeah. Really. If you look at all the information on, you know, concerning my accounts, that's that's verifiable. It can't possibly be a [ __ ] story anymore. It's really way past that point. Yeah. I mean, that was my big pin. Is I mean, how could I possibly know? So Mike Figpin was the guy that did the security clearances to go to the base. One of the guys that was. This is the guy that you worked with. He said he did, right? And and George Knapp, you know, George didn't believe him. George put him through four polygraph tests. Right? He tried to see, man, this is a big risk. It sounds interesting, but let's see if he's telling the truth. One of the things was Bob said, there's a guy named Mike Thigpen. He did security clearances for the base. And that's a weird name. It's very specific. For 30 years. George found this guy in this weird department that he didn't even know. It was Mike Thigpen. The guy wouldn't talk to me. Ghosted him. Totally ghosting for 30 years. Used Facebook and Google Image Match through his children. I was able to find him after 30 years. And I talked to him three times on the phone. He lives on the East Coast. He almost went on camera with me. Confirmed that he did security clearances for the base in 1989. Confirmed he remembers Bob Lazar. And what you don't know is there's a handwritten note that a friend of yours has from Mike. What I know, I'm gonna give it to you later. I don't. But that is real. That is actual. So a handwritten note that says, what, you know, like, this is new to me. So when the, I, when you're, when they do security client clearances, they go through all your friends. And they go to your friend's phone. Yeah. Yeah. So this is too. Bob and I had people come to me for a friend of mine that's serving. And they're doing the security clearance for him. And even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend. And they lift a little card. And when my wife told him to get away because he didn't know who they were, they left a little card. It's super cute. Now, back then, it was a handwritten note. And his friend has it for him. That you haven't seen in, oh my god, two decades. So if you're listening, you're telling me what it is. What is this card? It's just a little handwritten note with Mike Thigpen's signature card. Like, like a postcard. Like a piece of paper that he left on the door saying, when Bob gets back, or whatever it says on it. So it's just another little funny thing. I found the guy. He does the security clearances. He admitted to me he did it. And he admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp. Because when George said his name on the writ, on the on the news, he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever. And he's looking at his wife. He was in trouble. His name's never supposed to be out there. Like, it's just a security clearance guy. But you don't want national attention associated with anything Bob has to say. But anyway, this unique name, Bob said for 30 years. And the guy ghosted George Knapp. George could prove he existed. He actually talked to me, man. He talked to me three times. He almost went on camera with me. It's just crazy. What, what do you, what happens after 30 years? You just get more info? Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on the phone, yeah, I said, I think what we can do with this podcast is important. I really do. I think it's important for people to hear this from you in a very clear, just very concise way. And if you examine all the information that you've said today, if you, you look at all the things that the detractors have said, if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out, and all these really high-level people in the military and the government that are discussing this, it gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the 19 years when this came out. [ __ ] Yes, you can't ignore his story just because you don't like it anymore. That's.

Why I thought it was important that you come out and refresh the world's memory and let people know. And like I said, I've been, I mean, I want to say I'm a fan of yours, but I guess I'm a fan of yours as a human being. I'm a fan of yours, but I've been following you for decades. I've been following the story for decades. I mean, I'm kidding. I have VHS tapes, Bob, like a lot of the world has. Yeah, it's crazy.

Well, anybody that has any sort of, uh, a vested interest or a, just a even, uh, just a fascination with UFOs has followed your story because there's no one else. There's no one else that comes for this. Some guy who said, "I worked underground with the aliens, they shot my hand off." Like there's a bunch of wacky dudes. They're underground, there's bases, they're shooting lasers through the Earth's crust, and they move them at light speed. There's a lot of those guys. They seem schizophrenic, they seem crazy. They might even be disinformation agents. They might be people that are designed to muddy the waters, which for sure has happened.

People are coming forward though now. It's amazing. By doing this, what you're doing, you're providing an opportunity for Bob to tell a story. You know, believe it or not, he can tell a story. It's amazing because more people will come forward now that are involved with these projects. They'll come forward to you, to me, they're coming forward. And so what you've done here is provide that opportunity if they need it. And it's amazing.

I just want to say, Bob, just don't come forward. No, don't come forward to Bob. Why were you freaking nauseous at the beginning of this? Like so upset? Why was your, why'd you have a migraine? Because that started off so hard, my God. I was sitting here like, did this. Why are you asking him? Why? Because obviously anxiety. The guy's gone through 30 [ __ ] years of being persecuted. I just want to erase his birth certificate. I just want to hear what you hear from. I want to hear him say. I want them. Why did I have to say that? You don't just set it up. Get it. I step out. Okay, settle down. Yeah. Well, I get it. You were, it was hard for you to get them here, you know. And I was for us. Yeah.

You, you don't. You do what really annoys me are the people that think, you know, you guys just came up with the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch of, you know, attention. And that's a good point. So please explain that. First of all, I don't get any money out of this at all. And I may, I didn't even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything. I mean, any time, like when Jeremy, uh, pre-previewed, I guess the movie up in Michigan, I mean, they, it brought in like a couple thousand dollars. I made sure that two thousand dollars went to science programs at the local high schools there. Dirty money, I don't want to touch it. I don't take any money from this stuff. And as far as attention, I hate [ __ ] attention. I don't like being on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing. So that's, I got enough hugs when I was a kid, okay? I don't need any attention. So now that, if, if you, if you think somehow we came up with this thing, then you got to tell me why we did it.

Well, you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases covered in that regard, that you haven't profited off of this. And like you said, that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs. It's, I mean, it, it doesn't make any sense any other way. I mean, what you're, what I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was going to get out of here. When I watched the documentary, that you, what you're saying makes sense. It doesn't make sense that it's [ __ ] that happened exactly like I said it did. Joe, I believe you.

Um, in closing, is there anything else you'd like to say? No, I can't think of anything other than really, don't come and try to visit me. [Laughter]

Well, um, I know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out. And I mean, maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have been when you first initially came forward with the story. But over the past 30 years, it's been immense. It's been great. And I just want to thank you for that. And thank you for all these people that would not have gotten this information and would not have really had this story any other way.

Oh, thanks, Joe. Thank you. And thank you, Jeremy. And one more time, the documentary is available on Netflix right now. Yeah, it's called Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying Saucers. All right, that's it, folks. Good night. [Music] [Applause] [Music]