Transcription
A big question continues on what really follows till Friday and then after Friday once this is signed. Jeffrey Sachs, economist and author, now joining us. Mr. Sachs, how do you look at this announcement that has come in from both sides earlier today?
It's a very fragile ceasefire, but, uh, fortunately, it is a ceasefire, and it would enable the shipping to open up again. Uh, so I hope that it holds. It also shows, uh, how useless and stupid this war was that Israel and the United States launched on Iran. It accomplished nothing. But maybe we can return to the situation, uh, roughly that existed before the war.
Mhm. I was going to ask you, of course, what did America really achieve or gain? How do you think Donald Trump would be selling this? Because, uh, globally, there is an understanding this is very much because of domestic pressures more than anything else.
Yes, I mean, the United States could not impose its will. The United States does not have military dominance. The United States, uh, tried regime change, uh, which is illegal, uh, and, uh, which failed. Uh, so this is an attempt to return to the situation before February 28th, before the Israel-US attack. I think this exposes the limits of US power and the illegality of what the United States did. It could not achieve its aims.
Speaking of illegality, you know, in India, uh, we've been dealing with this question of those, uh, lethal strikes on merchant ships, uh, because of which three important Indian lives have been lost. And when External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar raised this issue with Secretary of State Rubio, he, of course, expressed his strong protest. The response that came in publicly from Secretary Rubio has been really panned and lambasted, not just in India but otherwise as well. Just, you know, the insensitivity with which America responded to what was an avoidable strike to begin with.
Yes, look, the whole war was avoidable. The whole war was a kind of US gangsterism because, uh, Israel and the United States said one day, let's, uh, replace the government in Iran with the government of our choice. Uh, this is completely, uh, illegal, uh, and irrational. Uh, it is in gross violation of the UN Charter, which in Article 2, paragraph 4, says that no country can threaten or use force against the territorial integrity of another country. I wish the United States would obey international law. I think it's very important for the BRICS countries to stand together and to defend international law.
Do you think, uh, this particular strike, uh, on unarmed merchant ships leading to casualties should be tried as a crime of war?
It's a, yes. It's, it's an abuse. It's a crime of war. It's a tragedy. But let's remember that on the very first day of this Israel-US attack on Iran, 160 schoolgirls were killed, innocent schoolgirls killed because of some AI targeting system of the US Pentagon. So the war crimes have multiplied. Israel continues to bomb Beirut. These are lawless countries, Israel and the United States. They need to be attacked, international law.
Speaking of Israel, we're getting a response from the defense minister there that, um, they will not stop their campaign in Lebanon. And do you expect, uh, that to become a spoke in the wheel as far as these negotiations are concerned?
The Israeli leaders make no bones about it that they want this deal to fail. They want the war to resume. They intend to try to do what they can to subvert it. It's time to say what Israel is. It's a rogue state. It needs to be brought back into international order. It needs to return to its own borders, which are the borders of the 4th of June 1967. There needs to be a state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel. And then there can be peace in the region. As much as we pretend that's not the case, we're not going to have peace because Israel is not going to allow it. Israel is a rogue state that needs to be pushed, and needs for the world community, including India, including every country, to tell Israel, you must abide by international law.
Mhm. Uh, you know, economics-wise, of course, Mr. Sachs, this war has had, uh, you know, great influence on many, many global economies. It was already being compared to the downturn in 2008 and, of course, COVID-related economic concerns. How quickly do you expect the global economy and individual economies to bounce back because of the aftermath? Uh, if indeed, of course, everything goes to plan?
If it goes to plan, the damage will be limited. Oil prices are down to around $80 to $85 a barrel now. They were at around $70 a barrel when, uh, the war, uh, was started by Israel and the United States. They rose to about $120 a barrel. Now they're back down, not to the pre-war condition, but, uh, much lower. That's good news. That signals, uh, the expectation that things can get back fairly to normal. There will have been costs, but I think we can avoid the worst if this peace holds.
Uh, do you think this war, or this, whatever this campaign has been, I'll leave Israel a little bit away from this because, you know, they have their separate issues going on, and as you said, they're not going to follow what the contours of this, uh, supposed deal is going to be. But from an American perspective, and therefore from a global perspective, we've seen how Ukraine-Russia has panned out. We're seeing how this went, that, you know, war certainly is not going to be, uh, an answer to some of those global issues that many countries feel very strongly about. If this is the lesson that's learned, that war cannot solve these problems, that we have to return to diplomacy, stop the shooting, stop the killing, stop the threats. This will be at least one positive outcome from this debacle. This war never should have happened. We should have stood up for Iran's, uh, sovereignty and protection from the very first moment. Uh, no country should have confused that. Of course, most countries don't like to tell the United States you're misbehaving, but the United States misbehaved very badly.
Uh, I do have to ask you this, in all of this. Do you feel Iran also has been guilty of pushing the global community with some of its, uh, you know, its proxy wars against Israel, its backing of Hezbollah and others, its nuclear program, uh, that has been negotiated multiple times in the past? Does that, does Iran also take some part of the blame, or no?
Not, not much, because Iran already agreed to the nuclear issue back in 2015 with the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, which the UN Security Council endorsed, and then Trump ripped it up in 2018. So Iran had already agreed on the nuclear issue. And the issue with Palestine, with Hezbollah, and with Hamas is quite simple. If there is a state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel, all of this resistance will end. This is resistance that comes because Israel has a project called Greater Israel, which is to control all of Palestine, to dominate 8 million Palestinians, and to take part of southern Lebanon and part of Syria as well. If Israel lives within its own borders, we can have peace. This is the most essential issue.
Uh, but since October 3, 2023, Israel is not going to back down, right? Uh, it has, of course, uh, not just that attack, but other issues to suggest that, you know, they, they, even if they were willing to live in peace, they're not going to be allowed to. We've heard, of course, voices from Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, all still talking about how they want to wipe out the state of Israel from the map.
This, this is absolutely a, a really profound propaganda. Since 2002, there has been the Arab Peace Initiative. Israel lives within its own borders. The Arab states live in peace with Israel, and the Iranians would accept this arrangement as well. We need to get to practicalities and stop the propaganda. This is the basic point. There can be peace, but it can't be peace in which one side, Israel, dominates the rest. I thank you for letting me join you today. I, I'm in a, in a big time squeeze, so it's been a pleasure to be with you. I appreciate it.
Thank you, Jeffrey Sachs. Thanks a lot for speaking to CNN News8.