Transcription
Chuckle. Herr General Mattis says that he looks for initiative and aggressiveness in NCOs. I'm not a naturally aggressive leader. Do you believe a leader should be aggressive by nature? When, when to be aggressive, or when do you be aggressive? Does it come off as fake if it's not natural?
So you know, obviously this is something we talk about all the time. Is that thief being default aggressive is good for leaders? Yes, that is a true statement. There's a dichotomy obviously, because you can be too aggressive, and then things go wrong, and things go bad, and things don't work. And yes, there are some people that are, let's say, more aggressive by nature. And then lest also, let's also remember that being aggressive means a lot more than just being loud, brash, and in-your-face, right? That is the stereotypical thing that we think of when we think of, all that guys really aggressive. You think this guy's in-your-face, she's yelling, he's, you know, pushing people over. That is not the type of aggressiveness that you need to be an effective leader. You don't need to be a loudmouth. You don't need to be brash. You don't need to get in people's faces. What being aggressive means is, is taking action. That's the kind of aggressiveness that I'm talking about. That's the kind of aggressive that General Mattis is talking about. And you know the definition, actually wrote this down, the definition of, of aggressive, or one of the definitions of being aggressive, is forceful and sometimes overly assertive pursuit of one's aims. So first of all, forceful, we get right. Sometimes overly assertive, some means sometimes that you have to go a little bit like harder. And here's why that's important, because listen, in combat, almost nothing will happen the way you want it to if you don't force it that way, right? You are coming against a powerful force, the enemy, nature, time. There's all kinds of things that that are going against you. It's a losing battle, and if you don't use force of will, then, then, then you're not gonna get it done. You have to be aggressive and make things happen.
I remember us, so there was a, there was, we all got interviewed after we came home from Ramadi, and I remember I was listening to Seth Stone get interviewed, and it was just, they were just trying to, you know, capture whatever information, moments, historical accounts of what had happened in Ramadi. And and Seth said something along the lines of, every operation we did, you could feel Jaakko beating his head against the wall to make things happen. And I got, you know, of course I laughed, but from his perspective, and it's a good perspective, and it's an accurate perspective, none of this, nothing just kind of, oh, that fell into my lap. That just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen in combat. It just doesn't happen in combat. And so yes, this idea that you're gonna be aggressive is, is, is very important. But if you think to yourself, well, okay, okay, look, I'm not the type of person that likes to be a loudmouth, likes to shout, likes to yell, cool, good. It doesn't matter. You don't need to be that way. What it means is, is you need to make things happen. That's what it means. And it can be, this is the good thing about being aggressive, sure there's, there's certain parts of your nature that are aggressive, but it can also be trained. You can, you can start to think with an aggressive mindset, which is, I am going to take action. I'm gonna overcome obstacles. I'm gonna push through roadblocks. I'm not gonna take no for an answer. And those are things that you can train and, and, and how do you train them? Look, when you, when you hit an obstacle, you look at it, you, you know, you shake your head and you go, cool, let's go, let's figure this out. There's so often times where people, they get told no, or they hit an obstacle, and it's game over for, they're just done. They're done training. They're over it. And your attitude, you have to go, okay, little little robot, cool, how am I gonna get through it? How many? And I used to put people, so to train people to be more aggressive, regardless of what their pretend, believe me, I had, I had guys, you know, SEAL officers that were coming through that, or SEAL Chiefs that were coming through, real real passive guys, quiet guys, you know, not in type of person that you would figure, oh, that guy's, oh yeah, that guy's aggressive. You wouldn't characterize him as that, but I would. So what I would do is put them in situations where if they didn't make aggressive decisions to make things happen, they were gonna get annihilated. Put them in training scenarios like that. Okay, oh, you want to sit here and you want to wait, like you're getting attacked, and you want to sit here and you wonder, way, you don't make it, one, don't want to make a decision, cool. In, in 16 minutes, I will have everyone in your task unit dead. We will kill them all, the paintball, if you end it. And so they learn that, and I go, what do you think happened, you know, and they'd say, oh, we started to get surrounded, and and I go, and what did you do? Well, you know, we, we held position. Okay, how, how long do you hold position for? We held it for a while. And one of the enemy, do, well, they started to maneuver, and then what you do? Well, we held position. And then what the enemy do? Well, they maneuvered more. And then what you do? I held position. And we started taking casualties. And then the enemy maneuvered, and then they closed the distance, and then they took us out. Okay, what do you think would have been better? Well, perhaps when it first started, before they had us enveloped, I could have made a maneuver to get to another building with some more high ground. That sounds like a great idea. Next time, why don't you be a little bit more aggressive in making things happen? Okay, put him in the same scenario, they get a little bit more aggressive, they realize that it's that it, it serves its function, and they start to develop the attitude. They start to understand what a lack of aggression will get you, because that's an important thing to know, right? It's not just a carrot, it's the stick. Cool. If I do, if I do this aggressive thing, it'll be rewarding. If I don't do something aggressive, we're gonna get annihilated.
So here's the other thing that you got to be ready for. So if you're, if you're a person that you lean towards being passive, you've got to start to lean towards being aggressive. And here's the thing that you got to remember, you're gonna make mistakes, because when you're aggressive, you're taking more risk, and often you're taking more risk. Now when you, if you've played out the whole matrix of being passive birth versus being aggressive, I will tell you being aggressive is the one that ends up on top. Are there, but there are scenarios where your aggressiveness ends up costing you a little bit? That absolutely happens. It happens in business. It happens in life. It happens on the battlefield. But overall, being aggressive is what, this is why this is why that, this is where the idea of you, this is where the idea of aggressive has to be your default mode. This is exactly why aggression has to be your default mode. Your default mode is aggressive. If your default mode is aggressive, and it's not the right answer, you just used to use the other answer, right? Your default mode is aggressive. That's why I originally said to these young SEAL officers, your default mode has to be aggressive. So if you're not sure if you should stay as you go, go to the default, which is going to be aggressive, because nine times out of ten, seven times out of ten, eight times out of ten, that's gonna be a better move than sitting on your ass and doing nothing. That's what's gonna get you killed. So your default mode is to go. Now, do you always go with your default mode? No, no, you don't always go with it to the default mode, but occasionally you go, oh, you know what, I'm not gonna go to the default mode. You put it, you pull the setting out, and even go into the other mode, customize it, customize a little bit for that particular situation, but your default mode is, I'm gonna be aggressive. And that's the, the odds you want, the odds you want to stack the odds in your favor. Hmm, what is it? Jason, Jason Gardner says, puts it kind of a cool, like, good way to just really wrap your head around like being it default mode, something along the lines of, like, it's easier, it's better to like have to pull someone back totally, then have to push him forward. Yes, it's a million times easier to have to pull the reins in on someone, on an element, on a team, on a leader, on a person. It's, it's a million times easier to go, I, I, hey, hey, come on back, going too hard, then going, hey, you need to get out there, yeah. Because by the way, I mean, if you think about this from like an actual event unfolding, if an event unfolds and you're the person that's on point and you don't react to it properly, that, that event needs to make it through you to me before I can now assess what I think you should do, and then tell you to go do it, and then kick you in the ass, there you go, do it. I don't want that. We already lost, yeah. I want, I want you to go, hey, oh, we just got this event started unfolding, I'm on it. And you look back at me, hey Jocko, I'm solving this problem right now. Oh, what's the problem, right? I don't even know what the problem is yet, you already solving it. That's what I want. And if I happen to occasionally have to pull the reins on you, I'm more than happy to pull the reins on you. What? So yes, that's a universal, it's easier to lead someone that you have to pull the reins on then you have to push. We'd rather pull back then push forward. And that, that idea of being aggressive is as part of that. So I want all my, I want on all my subordinate leaders to be aggressive. And as a leader, I know that my supporters are going to make mistakes while they're learning to be aggressive, and even when they're being aggressive, and I'm therefore considered fully trained and fully ready, they're still gonna make mistakes. I'm still gonna make mistakes being aggressive. I'm gonna make mistakes, but we're gonna play the odds, and the odds are, the odds are, you be aggressive. I'm trying to think of a good blackjack, you know, be, you ever play blackjack before? Either, yeah. So I mean, like, there's, you know, dealers showing, uh, whatever, do you do, is showing twenty, and you're showing a fourteen, you got to hit it, like that, that's the odds. The odds are you got to hit it. Mm-hmm. Dealer's showing a fourteen, and you're showing a fourteen, you gotta let the, you gotta, you gotta hold, let the dealer, let the dealer take the hit. Do they call it, I forget what, do they call it, showing twenty, cuz you know, one is down, one is up, yeah, right? Do they call that showing twenty, have a tanner? Yeah, yeah, because you don't know what the other card is. You just assumed, I'd, you assume that it's a, so you showing, okay, yeah. And I haven't played blackjack in a while. I can't, I can't believe I'm like struggling with my thought process around blackjack, around the numbers. It was more of a terminology, yeah. But you play the odds, yeah. And there's a rules when you're playing the odds in blackjack, there's rules of, yeah, what you hit and what you don't, and you stick with the rules, the odds are gonna be in your side, yeah, yeah, more than if you don't, if you just sit back, and that's, and so we're playing the odds, we're playing the odds with leadership, yeah. And the odds are, you default mode, it's not that you never come out of default mode, the odds are you be aggressive.
So back to this question here, listen to another couple things in this question: When to be aggressive? Look, the default mode is be aggressive, and sometimes you look at it, you'll know, now's not the time. Does it come off as fake or not natural? Hey, it's not being aggressive from this perspective isn't how you're acting, it's the decisions that you're making. It's the decision, I was working with a client yesterday, and we were talking about data. I think it was a client call, it was another, yeah, it was about data, and it was actually the very similar question, hey, um, I'm not very aggressive, and I'm more of a data guy, and I like numbers, and that's how I roll, and yet I'm not getting recognized. And I was like, cool, get aggressive with your data. Put your data together and present it up the chain of command, not to say, hey, look at me, but to say, hey, here's what's going on, here's what I'm doing. You're being aggressive with your data. You're showing them what's happening, cuz the guy wasn't getting the recognition that he needed, right? Any, what? So that meant his senior leadership didn't know what he was doing, which meant he's not getting the resources that he needs to do his job. And instead of being like, hey, this is what I need, cuz he's not an aggressive guy, he's sitting back and just getting resources stripped away from him. I said, cool, you're a data guy, record the data of what you're doing, present it, and the dad, let the data speak. Get default aggressive with your data. Did I miss anything here? Yeah. So it's not natural, yeah. I mean, I mean, if you all of a sudden start to try and act, yeah, you know, this, this new way, yeah, it's, it's, it's probably not gonna go good. Now, can you, do you sometimes have to learn, like, okay, you know what, I gotta stand up and say something, I gotta put word out, right? Yeah, you know, and I watched many guys in my career go through the transition of being a little bit less aggressive, and they realize, you know what, I'm in charge of this thing, I gotta go put the word out, and and that's perfectly fine, yeah. You know, those kind of for like about a superficial personality traits that are aggressive. Some people say, oh, well, that's that aggressive, yes, you know, where there's more depth to it, we're like, because again, like, you know, you can think of like a, I don't know, some fictional, or maybe not in fact, not fictional, like maybe Japanese business tycoon who doesn't say nothing really, no, but you know, he's making aggressive moves, like that's an aggressive guy, kind of. It goes deep. And then, you know, a guy who you are, you're saying like, he yells and screams and has a loud voice or whatever, it's kind of, okay, if that's your personality, that's gonna land for sure, but it's more about the decisions you make. Even say it's gonna land, what do you mean? Because that might just make a bunch of people Hank, right, right, some type ends on what you're yelling and screaming - sure, what you're saying is, there could be someone that's loud at scream, but they're, but they're, they're using that to cover the fact that they're actually not making any move, essentially, you see, yeah. So the yelling and screaming has very little do with aggressive movement on the battlefield, yeah, he's what I'm saying. Oh, I'm saying there's more depth to it, but the point actually is is that um, you should have just taken that point, cuz that was a good point, you know, taking that one wrong, but I want to continue. This was a probably less chlorophyll, but nonetheless, if you, if because he's concerned about faking it or coming off with his fing, we're know if you're focused on those like a superficial elements of your personality being aggressive, that's the part they're gonna smell is fake. If you're trying to change that part of, sure, you know, like, whoa, this probably used to have this tea in seventh grade is, I don't know, I think it's like a music teacher, know something super aggressive mutant alter, he was like a nice dude, like really nice. There's not too many stereotypical hyper aggressive music teachers. No man, he wasn't. I had, I had an assistant platoon commander, and aggressive, great guy, and he, you know, I didn't, I, you know, as I got to know him, you know, and I was like, so would you study in college? And he's like, percussion. Yeah, dang it, were you talking about? I was like, what concussion? Why? He's like, percussion drumming. User draw, he started drumming in college, which is just kind of deep in percussion. Yeah, I didn't know you could major in percussion. I mean, I guess, but anyways, history of percussion, yeah, properties of percussion. My point is, had he become a music teacher, humidity cuz use the rest of the system for tune commander, yeah, had, if I had to pull the reins on him, we'll be out there getting after it. This guy was not aggressive at all. He was like a nice guy trying to please everyone, you know, short term and long term kind of thing, which didn't really work with me. I'm pretty sure was seventh grade, so he was like, I remember guys, we just run circles around him, you know, like people wouldn't listen at all, so he had trouble controlling the class, we'll say that. And then I wanted, one time he tried to switch his personality, yeah, one time he dropped the book, you know how like sometimes when you drop a book, yes, sometimes when he hits correctly, it's like boom, it's like, oh fuck. So one time, Brad, he tried to do that, and it didn't make the sound, and like no one, it was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? He's like looking everybody with his eyes all big. Nonetheless, I think that was like, I think he got aggressive one day, and people like shut up, and we're like, hey, this guy's like, you know how on someone's never aggressive, then they start yelling, you're like, everyone kind of be quiet, yeah, angas yelling. So I think he might have got a small little payoff one day, and then from then on he started to try to be like aggressive, everyone could smell it on like, Brad, that's not even your thing, so he's gotta be working against them, yeah, everyone was kind of laughing at, I'm not, now he's like a weirdo, yep. So no, no, no, no need to do that. We throw on the music book on the table, big textbook is on the floor too, yeah, it didn't work for ch