Transcription
This conversation starts calm, and then everything shifts. Let's break it down on choir media.
"Um, I'm gonna do some..."
"Hello."
"Hi, Kevin. How are you?"
"I'm well. How are you?"
"I'm good."
"Good. How old are you?"
"I'm 24."
"Cool. So, what do we got? Are you here for the virtual match thing or something else?"
"No. Um, I came just to chime in because you said just now that if you are a woman and you major in business marketing and you said a slew other degrees that you're basically going to have an average life, and I disagree with that."
"Okay. Dispute it. Dispute it based upon the numbers."
"I was going to dispute it against my experience."
"Your experience doesn't mean anything. Dispute it based upon the numbers. See your..."
"No, ma'am. See, your experience, due to respect, even if it's incredible, it's yours."
"That's true. But it's still..."
"...based upon the numbers."
"But I'm not the only woman out there that's being..."
"But if that's the if if that's the truth, it should show where..."
"...you're right in the numbers. But I'm saying..."
"...for you to be..."
"...then then I don't want I'm not saying anything. The numbers say that."
"I understand. But for you to make a broad..."
"Okay, ma'am. It's not broad. It's a fact."
"Okay. For you to make a statement like that, I'm saying..."
"...it's a factual state. It's a fact. Dispute what I'm saying as a matter of fact."
"Okay."
"Is what I'm saying a matter of fact?"
"No."
"It's a matter of fact because the data exists. The data exists, ma'am. No, ma'am. Blackdemographics.com, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Department of Health, the CDC, this stuff is all the census. Those are facts."
"Okay. One second."
"Before you say anything, we got to agree to have an adult conversation."
"Oh, definitely. Most I've been on your platform..."
"...over feelings. Facts over feelings. So if what I..."
"Okay, so everything you're attempting to say, prove it with facts."
"Okay."
"Go ahead."
"Okay, here's a fact. I graduated with a bachelor's degree in business marketing. A fact. I make over $60,000."
"I make over that. So that puts me in a different percentage, right? You said most..."
"...black women in America don't make over. You I think you said 74% of black women..."
"74% of black women make under $50,000."
"Right. So that..."
"...only 9% of black women make more than $74,000."
"Okay. Well..."
"...so that puts you that puts you in what percentage?"
"A rare percentage."
"Thank you. So you disprove my fact?"
"Yes."
"Oops. Oops."
"But hold on."
"No. No, ma'am. There's no but. See, see what you don't like is the fact that 74% of black women make $50,000 or less. It didn't say what the degrees are, but we do know that we do know that different degrees have different floors and ceilings."
"That's true."
"Like it or not, if you choose humanities or business, you are choosing lesser income than math, science, engineering, technology, math, law, or medicine. True or false? As an average. As an average. No. As an average. As an average. Not on potential. On as an average. Does the average attorney make more than the average person with a marketing degree?"
"On average. Yes."
"Thank you. See, what you ladies like to talk about is possibility versus probability. Is it probable that you have a business degree as a female and you're going to earn over six figures..."
"...if you say it's hard to answer..."
"...probable? Is it probable?"
"Hold on."
"Is it No, ma'am. Is it probable? Meaning 50% 51% or more."
"I will have to I would have to argue yes. And this is my reason why. This is my reason why. If you look into business, you have the..."
"What's probable? Ma'am, hold on. Let me stop. First of all, first of all, you cannot argue that because you would have to look at the you would look at the total amount of business business degrees. If 51% or more of the business degrees granted did what you said, probability that then the amount of women earning less than $50,000 would shrink. the amount of women earning $74,000 or more would rise. Sorry, ma'am. It just doesn't work. The average black woman in this country earns less than $28,000 a year."
"Okay."
"Now, what I was saying was if you say business, [laughter] you have to take an you have to take an accountant of accounting and finance. That too falls under the bracket of business. Majority of accountants have their CPA. Hold on. Wait, wait, hold on."
"They don't change the raw numbers."
"See, here's what you're looking for, Kevin. You're right and I'm wrong."
"You said that's what I'm looking for."
"That's what you That's what Yeah, because that's the truth. I'm right and you're wrong."
"I think that's what with all due respect,"
"You can have all you don't have black demographics.com. that the black females, the average black woman in this country, $28,000."
"Okay."
"Ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, do you believe that number?"
"I believe you. I believe I'm not..."
"Do you believe Do you do you believe according to black for the census data, the Department of Labor, the Department of Health, the CDC, all the places that categorize and collate this data and that set policy, set budgets, all these other things. They got all the data. And when black statistics for black people by black people say that 74% of black women earn less than $50,000 in this country, that means three out of four earn less than 50 grand."
"I hear you, Kevin. I hear you."
"So what's your problem with just because you got a business agreement you earn more doesn't change the fact that puts you in a different path. That's you. That does not mean that change the numbers."
"I understand. But what I was saying was when you make a statement like you did saying in making it sound factual..."
"...bas No, no, no, no. Stop right there. Just stop right there."
"Kevin, you got No, no, no, no. I'm going stop you right. You're trying to be Okay, ma'am. I'm not going to allow you to do that. I'm not going to allow you to play slick loose. I'm not going to make it sound factual. It is factual."
"Okay, let me get Okay. No, I'm not. I'm not going to allow you to play word games like that."
"I'm not..."
"...cuz what you're trying to do what you're trying to No, ma'am. See, what you're trying to do is make your position and I won't allow you to discredit me. I won't allow you to play I won't allow you to play slick and loose with the words either. Just don't don't tell to say that I'm trying to do something. I'm reading the data."
"Okay. I'm sorry for that. when you said, you know, you you you named a multiple a multitude of different degrees and you said..."
"...that if you make these if you major in these type of degrees, you will make no more than average. That's your lifestyle will be average. You you'll make more nothing more than the average American citizen."
"Probably the probability is that way. Yes."
"Okay. So what I was just saying was yes that is right and it's the probability is higher but I am a walking factual being that is saying that that isn't..."
"...so what..."
"...so what ma'am okay okay okay see what you're what you're failing to account for..."
"...is you're in the minority Okay."
"Oops."
"But the minority still..."
"...but but the minority is the minority accounts for the fact that what I said. See, it's like what you're basically trying to say is when you have children,"
"Okay."
"...and you have and you have a have a son. You have a son and your son says and he has the intellectual ability to go become a a cardiologist, an attorney or go to school in marketing. You're going to tell him that all three of those degree paths have the same probability of income. Just because somebody in marketing can hit big, when you look at the schools and you say, 'Well, you go to you can go to MIT, Stanford, Harvard, all these other places, and you can afford it.' You're going to tell him, 'Go for the marketing because it has a higher probability because you know what? People can get a marketing degree and go become a VP of marketing.' But what's the probability? The raw numbers. Which raw numbers earn more money? Attorneys, positions, or market..."
"Attorney."
"Thank you. The raw numbers. See, and my my question is this. Why did that bother you so much? I think what bothered me the mo like the most when I heard it or what made me want to chime in when I heard it was just I already know what you about to [laughter] say that's why I'm hesitating is that it kills people's you know I would say dreams or motivation to want better it kills it like oh this is this is just I guess my this is what my life is going to be my baseline, this is what it's going to be. Which I mean, if that's your mindset, then of course that's what your life is going to be. But if you have a bigger drive behind you, which I do, of more ambition, you're going to push yourself and you're going to..."
"You're 24, young lady. You're 24."
"You you you're the you guys and the millennials are the first generation of people to look facts in the face and say, 'I don't care. I think in I feel something different because when I was your age and enrolling in college,"
"...the reason I chose engineering over business was because engineers factually made more money,"
"...right? That's the reason they Well, that's the reason you do it because when I was going to school, there was no internet and there was no uh social media and everybody didn't have a superco computer. So, we were much more willing to accept the reality that no matter what your drive is, the world is the same. After you get your degree, you are one of the how many hundreds of thousands of marketing degrees that are given that year? Hundreds of thousands versus one of the tens of thousands of engineering degrees. And they're and they're always looking for engineers. people in business. When I went to school my freshman year, Black Monday happened. People Wall Street crashed. People were graduating in uh se. Black Monday happened fall of 1987. And all of a sudden, you had people who had graduated the year before all going back to school. Why? Because there were no jobs. All the jobs that people were going to get because the stock market had crashed, the savings and loan industry flatline. So, and what was happening? People are going coming back with those degrees in business, going back to get a master's or an NBA in engineering because those were the jobs they were hiring. When I was a freshman, even as an average engineering student, I had internships. The people in humanities, journalism, communications, all these things, they were doing internships for free, having to work for free. Minimum wage was $3.35 an hour, and I was getting paid $4,000 a month as an intern. See, the reality is jobs, certain jobs pay more money over a lifetime. Just like people with college degrees on average make more than people with high school diplomas over a lifetime, right?"
"Yes."
"Well, if you accept that as a reality, you got to accept that there are some things that are more valuable. Just because you may have a marketing degree and may be able to break through, how many hundreds of thousands or millions of marketing millions of humanities degrees that are out there are useless?"
"That's true. That's true."
"So here's my question. Mhm."
"Why is it so important for people your generation to have these big dreams that don't that you know most people can't do. That's not how most people do it. When you were when you were a kid, we told you you could do anything. You could be president. But now as an adult, you kind of like, no, I can't. You kind of know what you can and can't be."
"Yeah, my my dreams haven't really changed that much since I was a kid."
"Well, what what are those? What are those?"
"Uh, one day I would like to be a CEO or a chair member CEO/chair member of corporation."
"Okay. Where'd you go to get your undergraduate?"
"Business marketing."
"Where?"
"Uh, Priv University."
"Okay. Um, [clears throat] how many pre how many preview graduates..."
"...are seuite members of Fortune 2000 or higher companies?"
"You said CEOs of them..."
"...seuite period. And I preview praview only. No, not UT business, not Rice Business School, not Fqua. just preview only."
"Um I'm actually I'm not sure honest to be honest with you. I would have to do some research and..."
"Ask perview. Prairiew Prairie View just got their engineering accreditation back in the last 20 years when I was in school going to get a degree in an engineering preview. You couldn't even get a job because they lost their accreditation. So you know just like I know hopefully wanting to become a seuite in someone's corporation where you got your undergraduate determines a lot ma'am what's president university how many of our presidents have gone to Harvard or Yale you want to be a president there's a path if you want to be in the seauite There are certain schools if you going to go get if you were if you were going to be a want to be an executive..."
"...where should you go to get your NBA Houston Tillerson Fisk Howard or Stanford University Illinois Duke NYU UT Austin Consortium Program program, University of Michigan. See, the last ones I mentioned have a better chance of because when cuz to do everyone who applies for the position can do the job. True or false? They have the baseline skills or so. Then why is it that we tend to pick people from these places? Because those things matter. the intangibles."
"So if you want to be what you're saying, then uh where's your Ivy League business school? Who where are your networks? Who are writing your letters of recommendations? Who's your mentor? That's what it's going to take to get what you're talking about. Not just drive."
"Absolutely. But I want to point out something to you. Go ahead. Go go go ahead. No,"
"Go ahead."
"Part of me that point out to me."
"Okay. So, just like you said while we were having this conversation that I am a rare commodity, right? So, I'm I majored in business marketing. I make over the I guess average amount."
"So, with that being said, just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. And that's something I really do love about my generation that I'm in. We look facts in the face and show that we can do otherwise. Like yet it was no no due respect, ma'am. Your generation hasn't shown anything. You just talked."
"Really?"
"Hold on. Hold on. Listen. Your generation loves to talk. Your generation convinces uh conflates probability and possibility. See, right now your generation is not old enough to have accomplished anything. You just think, well, because we think differently than the other generations, that it's possible. And what you're going to find out is things have happened the way they happened for a reason that many people in your generation just simply don't understand because you thumb your nose at those old school ways of doing things. Because that's old school. We new generation, we got computers and smartphones. See, but my generation, one thing we have over your generation is we had to we had to earn our knowledge. Your generation is lazy. You want to know something, all you got to do is pick up your superco computer and ask it and it will tell you. My generation, you want to learn something, you had to walk to the library or get on your bike, ride over there, go to the library, use the Dewey decimal system. Do you know what that is?"
"Yes, I know what that is."
"Many people don't. No disrespect. Many people don't the Dewey decimal system to look up a book. Go get a book and sit there and read it to get the knowledge firsthand. A sparse much and then give it back. See, knowledge that's knowledge that is worked for is more valuable than knowledge that is given. So while you may say that your generation because you have technology, you haven't proven anything that you're going to have a better outcome. As a matter of fact, it's going the opposite direction because you guys are much more hyperfocused and individualistic than us. Y'all ain't work together well, but you got time. And and guess what? We gonna be sitting back when you get to be about 45 years old. I'll be like, 'Uhhuh.' Then you g and what ends up happening like every generation just like I had to go back to my mother's generation, my grandmother's generation when I was young and thought I knew everything had to go back like damn you was right. They were like, 'We tried to tell you human be here's the funny thing. Human beings have not really evolved much. We we are pretty much evolutionarily. We live longer because of modern medicine. But we are roughly the human software. We're roughly where we were about 300 years ago. uh the middle class, teenagers and dating. [clears throat] These are new inventions of the last 50 to 70 years. But if you look at the pace of technology from the dark ages to roughly around 1900, it was very slow. But then the industrial period where we went from horse and buggy to automotive in a hundred years human beings accomplished in a 100year period what was 5,000 years but our brains haven't caught up to that. We are still in our minds hunter gatherers meant for living in villages. That's how we b That's how we evolved. Um, human be would you believe that human beings are not really meant to live in places of over 5,000?"
"I could believe that. I could believe that because it wears on your mental health and things like that. I could believe that."
"We're we're we're really supposed to live in of of little villages of 500 or less. 5,000 was a major metropolitan city. I'm here in Atlanta. That's 7 million people. We live in boxes. We're not our brains aren't caught up with this."
"So my point is [clears throat] that just like you understand that it can wear on you, you guys have too much information, a lot of information. But the systems that make this world work are there for a really good reason. Because just because you know something, everybody who knows a job can't do a job. You're going to find out that your bosses, a lot of them you going to be smarter than them, but you got to pay your duties. And when you get to be that point to where you're the boss and the boss's boss, you going to have some 20 some odd year old who think they got the keys to the universe come through be like cuz that's how human beings work."
"Yeah. That's..."
"Do you want to get married one day?"
"Yes, I do."
"Want children?"
"Uh, I'm undecided. [laughter]"
"Why?"
"Um, personal past reasons. Uh so when you're when you're this seauite executive, who do you want to pass all this money, resources, and legacy to?"
"Um..."
"The state?"
"No, family. My family."
"Whose family?"
"Like my family. So maybe I'm undecided about kids. So if I have kids, then them. But if not then my nieces, nephews, things like that."
"So your you have brothers or sisters?"
"I have sisters. All All sisters."
"All sisters. How many sisters?"
"Three."
"How many how many nieces and nephews do you currently have?"
"Zero."
"So if their nieces and nephews is [ __ ] and [ __ ] you want to give all their money. If your nieces and nephews are knuckleheads, you gonna take everything that you've accomplished as a seauite executive and just giving it to Nug Nug and Kesha."
"The probability of my nieces and nephews becoming knuckleheads is very slim. But if they were to then probably not. No."
"Okay then. But that's all but that'll be your only option. You either give it to uh Nug Nug Nephew and Ranch Kesha. See, or you give it to the state or or charity. [clears throat]"
"Well, I don't know. Maybe I'll adopt or have a menty. I give it to somebody. Um, somebody with purpose will be given my estate."
"But if your sisters are having kids,"
"I see your point. I see it. I just like I said from past personal reasons I have hesitation. So..."
"At 24 years old have you had therapy?"
"I have. Yes. I'm I have been in therapy for the last I'll say year and a half, two years."
"What what do you think what what is what is what is the purpose of life? Um, what is the purpose of..."
"I'll take it back. What is life about? What is life about?"
"Um, making a difference to me. That's what life is about."
"A difference meaning with with whom?"
"Uh, that depends on..."
"Life is about people."
"I agree."
"All right. Well, but but if you go do all these great and wonderful things and when you pass on what you done dies with you."
"No, not necessarily."
"Yeah, it does. I mean, don't you think your nephews and your nieces are going to honor what you've worked for like your your sons and your daughters would? I mean,"
"Ma'am, life is about people."
"Life is about relationships."
"I understand that. But I'm saying like there are people who make amazing accomplishments in their life and they leave their estate to their kids and their kids tarnish their reputation and everything like that."
"Fear, scarcity, fear, scarcity, and lack. If you watch me, look how often our women live in fear, scarcity, and lack, which leads to anxiety and stress. That's negative."
"No, I'm not saying that's..."
"Yeah. So this is the same woman who's telling me the probability and the possibility of all these great and wonderful things happening being when it come down to kids. Well, you could leave your money to this. It ain't going to have the same. Now keep that same energy, man."
"Wait, if you would let me finish my statement. What I was saying was yes, you could have kids and your kids could do you wrong just like anybody else could. Just because you have something to leave doesn't necessarily mean you want to leave it to your family. You wanted to leave somebody who can uh honor your legacy. So, would you rather have had no Would you rather have had no siblings?"
"Me?"
"Mhm."
"No, I love my I love myself."
"Then thank you. Then then let's cut to the cut the crap. Life is about people and family."
"Mhm."
"That's what it's about. So whatever negative happened to you, uh get it under get it under control under because life is about family. When you are when something happens in your life,"
"you want family. You want people who share your bloodline, your family culture. You want when you're old and no longer to be little cute girl doing their hair like this. You want somebody to say mama na na something and so forth. Life is about family. And one of the worst thing that's happened to so many black women is you guys are just not making families. Cut off from the very essence of being a woman, which is to nurture and move the culture forward for whatever reason, good, bad, or indifferent. but trying to get our women to become what every other group has. Women who want to be mothers and pass things forward. I'm not trying to say what happened. I'm saying life happens to us all,"
"right?"
"But the point of having all this stuff or doing all these things is family people. That's you because passing it on to a charity, you could do that, too. But better to pass it on to your lineage. So, I don't know, man. And I guess 24 years old, um, you got sisters. Um, yeah, I'mma tell you right now, I want to say that cuz it'll get out, but you you want to you want to pass it on to yours if you can. and uh at 24 whatever whatever you're talk whatever you're referring to um life happens to us all but there are plenty of women because I mean unless you want to be a jet set woman by yourself with your PhD and your dog cuz do you want to be married one day or do you want to be a single woman?"
"No I'm I definitely want to be married one day."
"Well then men you know men tend to want to have kids right?"
"I understand that and for the right man I possibly might but it it I mean you're not a man so you wouldn't understand because you don't actually go through the process of holding a child and um..."
"I'm not a woman."
"Yeah. Exactly. So you wouldn't exactly understand um what I'm referring to. But you know..."
"Well what I what I do what I do understand is that modern women have a far e infant mortality. There's a reason our grandparents and our great-grandparents there's a reason family used to be 10 12 10 8 10 kids. Why? Because you lost two or three of them. Modern technology has made us soft to where when life happens to us, we get traumatized from things that happen. Human beings are not all supposed to make it out of think if you haven't had any pets or anything. The the litter doesn't all survive. But human beings have populated this world because we keep going on. We don't shut down because of things that have happened. we make the best choice. That's why I said whatever you're talking about the ultimate I without getting into it, it is a psychological thing. Whatever is going on is a psychological issue because it is human nature to want to produce yourself. It is human nature just like people who say, 'Oh, it's human nature to survive. You want me to show you how it is? Let me if I could set myself over to you right now and you could be as depressed as you want to be. It's human nature to survive because if I were to take a pillow and put it over your face, guarantee you would fight me for your breath. It is in our nature to survive. So we can say whatever we want to in our depressive anxious states but in our core being is the evolutionary drive to procreate and survive. So whatever you're talk what that's why I said therapy I want to get into it therapy because life is about people especially as we head into this holiday season. Much better to have presents under the tree from your husband and and to your husband and to your kids and to your mama than just a sorry ass Charlie Brown Christmas tree with corn cobs and dry ass [laughter] dry ass Christmas cake. Take it easy. Byebye."
"Bye."
[clears throat]
"See you can have a..."
"Man. I'm sitting there listening to this like no way this is real life. The level of empty-headed, loud, argumentative energy coming through the phone is honestly painful. And it's not even anger at this point. It's secondhand embarrassment. Like, you start looking around the room hoping nobody thinks you agree with what you're hearing. That line right there, 'My generation is so great because we look facts in the face and say, "Nope." ' Bro, when she said that, I actually laughed out loud because that statement alone proves the exact opposite of what she thinks she's saying. That's not intelligence. That's not progress. That's not strength. That's pride mixed with ignorance. And that combo is undefeated when it comes to self-destruction. And the frustrating part is Kevin wasn't even being disrespectful. He was breaking things down step by step, giving real-world context, credentials, hierarchy, how companies actually work, why titles and experience matter if you want to be VP or executive level. This wasn't theory. This was game. But none of it landed. None. He might as well have been explaining this to a cat staring at a laser pointer because the second she got the chance to speak, boom, right back to her original talking point. No processing, no reflection, no adjustment, just straight mental buffering and reset to factory delusion settings. That's what gets me. It's not that she disagreed, it's that she didn't listen to understand. She listened just long enough to wait for her turn to talk. And that's why people like this never grow. You can't teach someone who already believes they know everything, especially when they don't even have the results to back it up. And the whole 'I feel a certain way' argument. That's where logic goes to die. Feelings are not facts. Feelings don't run companies. Feelings don't negotiate salaries. Feelings don't promote you to leadership. Reality doesn't care how strongly you feel. It only responds to competence, cooperation, and results. What makes it sad is that this wasn't a lack of opportunity. She was sitting across from someone trying to give her the blueprint. Most people would kill for that kind of free wisdom and she wasted it arguing vibes. This is why some folks stay stuck. Not because the world is unfair, but because their ego blocks the lesson. If you can't grasp basic cause and effect, basic structure, basic accountability, then yeah, life is going to feel confusing and hostile. Honestly, it wasn't funny by the end. It was just sad because you could see it clearly. She doesn't get it."