Ravens and Chargers WIN BIG in Week 10, Brian Daboll FIRED in New York

Feeling a little hung over on week 10. We got a big Monday night game. The review of that Monday night game will be available on the YouTube channel by the time you guys can listen to this. So, we encourage you guys to go check that out. Very excited about Eagles Packers. Recording our first one from the studio a little bit later tonight. But few games to get to before we get to enjoy a lovely week 10 Monday Night Football game. Talk about Ravens Vikings in a little bit and talk about the Steelers and the Chargers. We were going to do three games. Unfortunately, yet again, we have been preempted by a little bit of NFL news that is going to take some precedence at the top of this thing.

Thankfully, thankfully having Browns Jets on the docket, it makes it very easy to cut a game. I will say I do, we need to watch the Browns and the Jets at some point in order to provide proper context for what next year should look like. I honestly think we might just spend an entire midweek show doing that after like week 16. Just a like top five of the draft order. Like these teams are their actual season is done. Let's just check in with where these teams are so we can talk about what next off season should look like for them. That's mostly why I want to talk about Browns Jets and why I was a little bummed that we're not going to.

Unfortunately, another team has fired its head coach and we have to dig into that today. Brian Dable out as the head coach of the New York Giants. We're going to change the order of things today because one of our Monday morning voicemails was actually about Brian Dable and about the Giants situation. And so we're going to play that voicemail first and then chat about what this means for the New York Giants on a pretty big day for the organization.

Well, Robert, it's a Sunday, so that means there's another epic Giants fourth quarter collapse. And this one felt a little fitting because it was with against another organization that dealt with the same QB, coach, GM mismatch timelines. Except I think the Giants kind of had it a little worse because the Bears fans never saw a M. Trabiscy or Justin Fields captain one of the best offenses in the league the following year. So, knowing your proximity to the issues the Giants are dealing with, Robert, want to get your insight on if you're the Giants organization, what do you do? I mean, Brian Dable was supposed to be a young, hot, offensive mind. So, do you go a different direction? Do you stay on this timeline of mismatches? Do you stick with them? Really, as a Giants fan, I think all Giants fans want to know what's your take, especially as a Bears fan. Thanks, Robert. Thanks, Dave. Thanks, Eric.

Here's the first thing I'll say. That point about not having to watch Mitch Trabiscy or Justin Fields succeed elsewhere is so true. After the week one game against the for the Jets this year against the Steelers, I was like, "Oh no."

Mhm. Like, so actually having to watch that play out in real time, I got one tiny glimpse of what it felt like and I hated it. So I'm I'm very much feeling for Giants fans on that front right now. Even with week one, you can be like, "All right, sometimes this happens." When it extends after week one for Daniel Jones and they're like the best offense for two months, you're like, "Oh god, this is horrible."

Intellectually, you understand that, but in the moment, it's sometime it's hard to square that. The rationality doesn't take over when you're looking at the way the Justin Fields played in week one. Even if there's a part of your brain that understands this probably isn't real, it was a little bit scary. And so the fact that the Giants have had Giants fans have had to watch that for eight weeks and then it's not been quite as good the last two weeks, but this is still the best offense in the league, that is a painful experience.

Let's move on to what happens next. Obviously, when that voicemail happened, the Giants had not fired Brian Dable. Now that has happened, and now the next set of questions is where do they go from here with both the coach and the GM? So, after you heard the news this morning, I you I'm not I'm assuming you weren't surprised cuz when we talked about this last week, your thought was it it doesn't matter if the quarterback is playing decently well. We're at a place where anybody can be blowing these leads and winning four games as the Giants head coach. And so, it felt like you were getting to a place where it was time in your eyes.

Well, and it's just like I think Jackson Dart has done some nice things that you can build around. He's obviously a really good athlete. Uh I think some of his deep ball stuff has been nice. He's like willing to make plays, which is fun. He's really accurate, which has actually been probably the most startling thing to me is that he's really really accurate. But like when I watch the offense, I don't get the sense that anything the offense is doing for him is like some crazy thing that he's being lifted by. Like it this does not to me feel like a Brian Dable thing. This just very much feels to me like, okay, a talented player is, if a little bit inconsistent, showing you something every now and then. If anything, I thought this was just like the offense kind of just looks like what you expect when you get like an RPO athletic quarterback. like he's not doing anything that was like super exciting to me from an offensive design standpoint.

The big question for me now is whether because I'm I agree in the sense that like I understand why they fired him. I thought that there was a good argument to fire him after last season when you knew you needed a new quarterback and you didn't want to get onto these mismanaged timelines.

Do you want to have him picking the quarterback when you've had two seasons of being the worst offense in the NFL? Basically,

Sometimes I think that stuff can be overstated in that if the quarterback ends up being good or the quarterback is worthwhile, then honestly, who really gives a Like, if Jackson Dart is good, whoever comes in to coach Jackson Dart, he'll probably be happy that Jackson Dart is the quarterback. The Bears did this with Ben Johnson. I mean, the fact that Ben Johnson didn't pick Caleb Williams. If it starts to go south, it's a little bit easier to distance yourself from that guy. So maybe that's a consideration and maybe you're a little bit worried about the development plan for that quarterback, but in the Bears case, like it was a disaster anyway. Like you wanted somebody in there to actually get this thing back on the right track. And so I think that's it. You never like having that sort of dysfunction and that sort of year-to-year change, but if you get the right coach in there, I don't think that's really going to matter.

For me, it's a question of should the front office stay in place? because it really does seem like the messaging coming out of that building is that and they said it today they put out a statement the mayors and the tishes did about how Joe Shane has built you know young promising kind of ascending roster we're happy with the direction of that you know he's going to be the one leading this search and I'm just not sure how much I buy into that like if you look at what they've done over the last few offseasons I don't think it's some flaming disaster there are some nice pieces here but I I kind of think of the Joe Shane process in a similar way and again go back to similarities and kind of the the shared DNA of these organizations to such an extent. It reminds me a little bit of like what Ryan Ples has done. And I think that there are a lot of similarities. If you look at even the Brian Burns trade, the the sweat trade is like the exact same thing. And so I think there are a lot of

just kind of throwing money and resources at problems and just being like, "Oh yeah, of course we like need this guy, you know, like why wouldn't we trade a second round pick for a pass rusher when we don't have one?" And I think in both cases, I just think there's kind of a lack of vision and cohesion. It's like you're kind of playing whack-a-ole with your issues, but not really understanding how to build a team from the ground up that complements one another and makes sense. And so, while I look at the Giants roster and the pieces that they have, and I'm like, yeah, I mean, this isn't one of the worst teams in the league as far from a talent perspective, I can understand talking yourself into keeping the GM. I also don't think that there's a very strong argument for he needs to stay based on the work that he has done either. That's kind of where I'm at is like I don't think he's like a horrific GM necessarily. Like there the hit rate is not good but it's good enough and you have enough star players, right? Like Abdul Carter looks nice. Obviously Malik Neighbors when he's healthy like some of the stars are fine.

I want to be clear about that. I think the foundation of it if you were to bring in somebody who might have a little better vision is I'd want to take but at the same time a lot of the guys that they found are guys they picked in the top five you can find difference making players there

was that like the second overall pick or something like that exactly it gets a little bit easier to pick those guys and so I I think he's at least hit on those picks which is nice and like again I don't think it's an abject failure of a roster but it feels a little bit too stars and scrubs e and then to your point like I don't understand what the cohesive vision for it was supposed to be and so for me if I'm cleaning house with the head coach and offensive play caller already. I would probably lean towards like let's just kind of clean everything out entirely. Whoever is going to take over the job GM head coach is like okay you have a quarterback maybe you can build around. You'll probably get like two years to figure out if you want this guy or not and then that's like a decent runway for whoever is coming in. And so I don't know. I I personally would move on because again we've talked a million times about like when you mismatch head coach and GM it's just like a weird place to be. I would rather kind of just take it all.

It doesn't seem like that's what they're going to do. And so that that's an area where it will be misaligned. And then you'll see how that goes. Again, if you find the right coach, none of this really matters. But I just think that you're maybe making it a little bit harder on yourself than you need to as somebody who has watched this process many, many times.

And I will say, not that Joe Shane has earned it, but we have at least seen cases of a GM like outliving one head coach and then two years later they start to find whatever their vision is. Like the Bucks had kind of done this after.

They're the best example, but they in a lot of ways like they're the exception. They prove I guess less need would be the other example, right? But like how many Shawn McVeys are out there? There just aren't that many Shawn McVeys. And so I think if you find that type of coach, maybe it cures a lot of your ills. But I think it's really really difficult to find that kind of franchise changing person.

The Dable experience as a head coach, I think it's strange when we when we are going to look back on it, you know, 5 10 years from now. He won coach of the year in 2022 and I don't think that was like a fraudulent coach of the year award. Like when you look at what they did with that offense with the lack of talent that they had on that offense, like they were like 10th in offensive DVOA. The leading receiver on that team in terms of uh total receptions was Richie James.

Was it Daniel like Bellinger after that?

Isaiah Hajins. That was the name that I was looking for. Yep.

Isaiah Hajins had 33 catches. Saquon actually did lead the team in targets, but from terms of receptions by a receiver, Richie James was number one. Darius Sllayton was number two and then Isaiah Hajins was third. This thing was put together with like gum and toothpicks and they made the playoffs and had like a real NFL offense and it was very impressive but they never were able to expand beyond that. And my question about Dable and this was something that I have about a lot of head coaches is that there are guys when I think about their personalities and the way that they're wired when things are going well a lot of guys will be fine. The problem with being a head coach in the NFL is and it it is inevitable that you are going to hit some sort of downswing. And the story that really stuck with me and I've told this story plenty of times. I wrote a story about Brian Dable in 2021 like when he was his candidacy was very real and he was doing a great job as the Bills offensive coordinator and just kind of what he would look like as a potential head coach. And Dererick Anderson told me a story about being in Buffalo and Brian Dable was the offensive coordinator and how when he went to the booth, it was actually a really good thing for him because he was able to kind of remove himself from the emotions of being on the sideline

and you can't do that as a head coach.

No. And so when you look at what he has been as a head coach and just the snip snap with the offensive play caller, obviously everything that happened with Wink Martindale, even going back to that moment with Jackson Dart in the blue tent against the Eagles like three or four weeks ago, I just felt like there was a volatility to his personality that made being a head coach specifically a little bit of an issue. And you combine that with the inability to find the right defensive coordinator and lock down that side of the ball. And I think that is enough to kind of land on an answer where even if they're doing some decent stuff on offense, even if he has shown an ability to coordinate and call plays for an offense that outperforms its talent, all the other aspects of this job have eluded him in the moments where he really has needed to tap into it. You just want your head coach to feel like things are settled. And there's nothing wrong with being like emotive. A lot of the best head coaches are Jim Harbaugh will start screaming and yelling and stuff. P Carol just starts screaming and yelling at himself like Dan Campbell will get really animated but there's always a sense of like settled and they feel like they're in control of everything with Ael it just does not feel like you've ever gotten that sense and so that on top of some of the play calling issues it just seems like yeah I don't know that the head coaching job I think has been a little bit much for him I had not heard the anecdote about him being in the booth like kind of removing it but it does make sense though.

Yeah and that that was one that stuck with me and I think that when you hear just about his personality it's not necessarily surprising. How do you feel about the Jackson Dart injury stuff and how it plays into this? Because a lot of people have gone to that this week and I can understand that like using

him getting hurt is like that was kind of a

often as he has the fact he's been banged up so much over the last month or so. I think at the end of some of these games running him and using him as sort of a hammerhead when the game is out of reach that I think you can say is irresponsible. I think I think the what was most troubling to me is again going back to that moment with the blue tent.

It it felt like there was a real desperation in the way that Brian Dable was seeing Jackson Dart over the last four or five weeks. Like essentially as soon as he became the starter, it's like this guy is my ticket to survival and he was treating it that way

in a manner that I think wasn't necessarily fair to Jackson Dart all the time. Like I think it's best encapsulated in that moment on the sideline in the Eagles game, but I think the way that he used him as often as he did as a runner, even when these games were out of reach, I think is another good example of maybe a misstep on that front.

I think it was like for for them to use him. It's the late in game stuff cuz I do think it it's a little bit hard to untangle because I think part of it is the running him late in game stuff, but also like

just plays that way. Yeah. It's just like I don't know.

Yeah. Like there's some amount of it that is Dable's fault, but like Dable could have protected him better late in these games and there still might have been two or three times this year where D Jacksonar had to come off the field and get checked. Like that I just think that there's some element of that. Like some young players just need to learn that. Like there are some young quarterbacks that come into the league, especially guys who were big time runners in college that just don't have a sense for when do I need to get down. Like honestly, I was surprised like Drake May has come along in that sense as much as he had. I thought Drake May was going to get himself hurt very early and he just that's something that he's developed quickly and so Jackson Dart may do that but it just seems that like maybe that was just never a point of emphasis for them because of what you're saying where it's like they kind of need Jackson Dart to make every play available and so you kind of just let him do that stuff but I don't know I that to me like there's a lot of stuff I'll put on Dable and I do think there was an out amount of desperation but I'm not really going to be that hard on him for that one.

I I have a question for you and because I I found myself more interested in it than I thought I would be today when I was thinking about it.

Mike Kfka is the interim coach on this team.

Mike Kfka and Brian Dable aren't like tied at the hip sort of guys. They didn't know each other really before they started working together. They come from different offensive systems. I think personalitywise they're pretty different. Is there any part of you that's a little bit intrigued about how this is going to go just because then you remove that component of having to make him start over next year if this actually goes well? Like we've seen this happen in the past and I often don't like it as an idea. Like the dirt cutter Jameus Winston thing is the first one my mind goes to.

Freddy Kens, that's the worst possible. Yeah, that one is probably unfair to Mike Kofka.

That's that's that's the worst possible one. I think Freddy Kitchens never ever ever was somebody that was talked about as like a potential future head coach in the NFL. Mike Hathfka has been like I think that there's at least a little bit of interest in this for me. And part of that is because who would be like the hot shot offensive coordinator you would hire

as the Giants head coach to overtake this thing and see the next stage of Jackson Dart's career through?

I mean, it kind of is it would just have to be Kubak probably, right? like he's probably going to be the only guy that people are going to be that level of interested in.

And even that I' I'd be curious early for me on that, I would imagine.

And I Yeah, I think that's going to be a larger conversation. I think there are a lot of things to take into account as we project certain offensive coordinators moving forward into that head coaching role. And so I don't think that there's like this huge pool of candidates on the offensive side of the ball if that's the direction you want to go. So I find myself like at least a little bit intrigued in what this might look like with Mike Cafka in New York. I hadn't really considered it because I usually just kind of go in auto assuming like they're not going to keep the

usually how I am because hiring the interim is usually a bad idea.

But like it does happen like like more than we think. Like once every couple years like the Dirt cutter thing, um the Freddy Kitchen thing, Antonio Pierce holding the job. Obviously that's not like an offensive play caller thing, but still like

but that's the that's why I go into it making the assumption that it's not going to happen.

Wasn't Mike Malarkey an interm as well? But the point is the majority is usually a bad idea.

It is usually not a good idea.

Yeah. So he was the interim head coach in 2015 and ended up taking over in 2016 and lasted two years for the Titans.

The reason I think again if you wanted to make the case, right, if I was just doing this for the hell of it,

Kfka, it's hard to keep track who the offensive play caller has been for the Giants because again, it's been back and forth and back and forth and forth in they started that first year when they started, KFKA was the offensive play caller. And so I believe that season when they really did outperform expectations on offense, he had a big hand in what that thing looked like. And so if you can tap into that and then maybe improve on some of like the personality management stuff that Dable didn't necessarily have the best handle on, is there a chance you can actually find something here and you go out and you seek out a new defensive staff, all that kind of stuff. That should be on the table. But I think I'm just more interested in the interim stretch for this coach than I am with most of them because of all of the factors at play.

I think for me it's just like I'm trying to imagine how good does it really need to look for them to make that consideration.

It's a great question. I don't even I don't even know if it's about how good it looks on the field. I think it's a combination of that and like what it looks like behind the scenes

and just like what he feels like owning the room. That that makes sense. I mean that's half that's more than half of the job anyway. As far as how attractive this job is, I think it is attractive on on multiple different levels. You know, you have an arranged marriage with the GM, which that can go either way, but I think you have an arranged marriage with a GM that I can't imagine holds like a ton of power in that building, right? Like if you find the right head coaching candidate, it kind of reminds me again of going back to the Bear situation where like I think Ben Johnson has a lot of say and what is going on there and the players being picked and all of that because it hasn't necessarily been a rousing success with the general manager. So, I think the power dynamics are potentially in your in your favor. I think you have an organization that desperately wants to be patient. Like, desperately wants to be patient. I I'm sure it pains them so much to be doing this now. If they could give a guy six, seven, eight years to see this next thing through because there's a level of confidence. I'm sure they would love that. You have a quarterback that I feel better about him today than I have ever felt about him as an NFL quarterback based on the way that he played yesterday. M I thought his work on time from the pocket yesterday was some of the best he's ever done in the NFL. The Bears defense is awful right now, but I was very

But that's still like you need to check that box at least if you're like a competent player.

It's not even about the results. It's about the process and like some of the throws he was making from the pocket yesterday on time within the rhythm of the play. I was like, "Okay, you combine this with some of the out of structure playmaking. There's a lot I think to be intrigued by here." And then you think about like the pillars outside of that. Like they have real players at some of the premium positions that are hardest to find. They have a borderline allpro left tackle when he's healthy who's played at an extremely high level since he came back this year.

You have an really really talented receiver that has a torn ACL right now that'll be coming back. You have multiple pass rushers. Like you have three like potential building blocks on the defensive line with Carter, Dexter Lawrence, and Brian Burns. And then by the time we get to like 2027, you kind of have like a blank slate financially. Other than that, they've got a lot of pretty bloated contracts on the books right now because they've had to solve problems because of bad drafting. That's another thing we should mention with Joe Shane is that like there are a lot of swings and misses at the like in the first round specifically when he wasn't picking in the top five and with the Evan Neil thing even when he was picking in the top 10. The reason that you have to spend all of this money on Pulson and Debo is because you missed on Deontay Banks. And so there's a lot of makeup contracts on the books through 2027, but when you get there, this is a team with a lot of financial flexibility and most of those pillars that we're talking about still under contract. And so I do think on a bunch of different levels, this could be an attractive job in this cycle compared to some of the other ones that will come open. It's probably going to be more attractive than a lot a lot of the other ones you are starting from like ground zero which can be fun in the sense of like okay we can do whatever we want here but that's also like gives you the most room to go wrong cuz it's just hard to build an NFL team. So I think that that could be scary for some guys. I do think the thing I'll say about Jackson Dart I'm not sure he's good yet. I'm not sure he's ever going to be good but I thought given the offense he played in and given some of the issues I had in college I thought he was going to be one of those like DOA type of quarterback prospects and he's not. There's like at least enough there that I'm like, you know what, we can see this thing through for like another couple years and I I'm interested to see what it looks like. I'm interested in a way I was not 6 months ago during the draft.

I I totally agree. I mean, guys, typically with his background, when you think about the offensive system, he came from, the hit rate on guys from that offensive system,

they've never been good really.

It's never really worked out. And I think even beyond that, because you don't want to scout that way, right? When you're watching guys, you want to try to remove that part of the equation and be like, "All right, the best I can, how do I try to separate these things?" And when I was watching him, I just felt like some of the spatial awareness, which was like where all right, how are you feeling defenders and how are like how is that playing into your process? If it's not like a defined read within this structure of this very gimmicky sort of offense, what do you look like? And I think there was a decent amount left to be desired. I will say he's really athletic. He can solve problems that way right now as a scrambler. Obviously, we know what he can be as a design runner, probably too much. And I do think that the work he's done against the Blitz and the accuracy, there's a lot to like there. And so the fact that he can solve some of these problems and the fact that we've kind of seen him step outside of what that looked like in college, I I have been impressed by that. I'm I'm the same I'm in the same boat as you are. Like this the first game I watched yesterday where I was like, "Okay, the things he's doing here are intriguing to me." And so I'm not sure where I land on it, but I think if you're a coach, we talked about this on the previous show, if you're a coach potentially taking this job, I think you can look at what Jackson Dart has been to this point, combined with the fact that based on everything I've heard from everyone who talked to him in the pre-draft process, he is made of like the right stuff. I do think that this is becoming like a selling point for the job, even if it feels like a quarterback that you're going to have to be tied at the hip with.

All right, let's take our first quick break here and then come back with a little Ravens Vikings. This episode of the Athletic Football Show is brought to you by our friends at Facebook. You know, every year around this time, there's that one night when everyone's back in town, Thanksgiving Eve. You swing by your old bar, see some familiar faces, maybe even reconnect with an old teammate you haven't talked to in years. That's what Facebook's all about. Those little connections that end up meaning a lot. Maybe it's someone posting in your high school alumni group saying they're home for the holidays. Or maybe you find out about a local turkey trot where you dress up with family through a Facebook event. Even hopping on Marketplace to grab something to spice up your home ahead of Thanksgiving can spark a new friendship. This season, Facebook's reminding us that a little connection goes a long way. So, if you're heading home, hop on Facebook, check out your group's events marketplace, and see who you might reconnect with. Let's reconnect this holiday season with Facebook.

The Ravens beat the Vikings yesterday 27 to 19. The Ravens moved to 4-5. The Vikings are also 4-5. Just the fact that those teams have the same record is absolutely incredible right now. Uh which side of the ball do you want to start with?

Um I kind of want to get Ravens offense out of the way.

Okay, let's do it. All right. All right. That that's how I watched it. I think with the same thought process in mind.

I I went in the other way actually. I went in watching it the other way, but I guess technically that now the Ravens offense is a little bit more fresh in my mind. Um very weird game to start. I felt like in the sense that like I feel like the first like two or three times the Ravens got to third down they just did not want to play football which I thought was interesting and maybe that was them trying to like sniff out okay what is Flores going to do to us and stuff and so it felt like a very conservative game plan overall and then to me I think it found that it took them a little bit of time to like find what their run game was going to be and I think as the game went on a lot of their just like putting Patrick Iard at fullback getting into eye formation and doing all this like some lead zone some like lead toss a a lot of their play action stuff with the lead insert from the fullback.

The best plays they had all then

every Vikings line Blake Cashman like tried to take on Patrick Aquard on those play fakes every time and there's just a valley of space in the middle of the field and Lamar hit all those throws and so I I really think that like them settling into that formula a little bit in this game was really good for them.

That was my favorite stuff that they did. So the stuff that they were doing out of like 21 personnel with Patrick Kard it's it makes sense when you're playing against a team that likes to run blitz, right? Because by using some of that run run action stuff from heavy personnel, you're feigning that it's going to be a run in a bunch of different ways, even beyond the play fake. And I think that you're getting those linebackers to either fire or, you know, come downhill extremely hard. You mentioned it. Ricard like cut Blake Cashman at the line of scrimmage multiple different times because of how hard he was filling to the line of scrimmage. And so you have this ocean of space on some of these in inb breaking play action routes. I like that part of the game plan. I think they really did tap into that by the end of the game. the run game stuff. It still feels to me like they don't know what they want to be.

I agree. I I just don't know what they want to be.

I'm glad they found enough in this game with some of the lead stuff. Like they they were able to tap into it enough, but I still feel like I want more pullers in this offense. Like that's kind of where I land.

I tend to agree with you. Do you want more pullers in the shotgun run game or do you want more pullers with them just lining up under center and running the ball? I would honestly probably say shotgun. The thing is I think they want to get Lamar like fully healthy and activated maybe before they lean into that that much cuz since he's been back he hasn't run like that much barely run at all.

Yeah, there were like one or two times in this game like in the red zone he checked to something for himself but other than that they really did not weaponize him. And so that that could be part of why they're not using it because I think when you add Lamar Jackson on top of players moving every which way that's just like a nightmare run game scenario to deal with. They just maybe don't feel as comfortable tapping into that yet.

Yeah, I just feel like they it still feels unsettled in the run game because I I just you look at the shotgun run game and they're not doing a ton of like read stuff where they're leaving guys on block to even give him the option of keeping the ball. And so if

there are maybe like two plays of that this game

if you're not going to do that, then there's really no benefit to being in the shotgun as part of the run game. And so maybe that's the reason that I like the the feel of the under center run game a little bit more right now. But I you're probably right and that the ceiling of it is higher the more they're going to run out of the gun. But overall right now it just feels like they're kind of grasping at answers and that's kind of what the Katon Mitchell stuff

felt like to me where it's like all right, you know, they were even doing a little bit of like two back stuff with Katon Mitchell and Derk Henry in this game. And so I think the couple pops they got from him where it's like we just need to find something here. Like let's say even if the creases are not going to be as big, can we get a guy that's hitting it maybe a little bit quicker in order to take advantage of that lack of space? I mean that 22 yard run that he had that's a inside run the same run they ran later in the game with Derrick Henry he just hits it so quickly that it looks a little bit different and so it just feels like they're still searching for answers there and I don't think they've really settled on the right ones yet.

I mean even on the play right before that cuz I think he had two backto-back like pretty nice runs. They do like a little bit of like a toss to the right hand side and Baitman actually does a really good job getting a piece of Van Ginkle on that play but it's still like not that big of a crease for him to like get around Van Ginkle and go but Mitchell has a giddy up in the back field that Dererick Henry doesn't like Derrick Henry is like once he can get to the line of scrimmage we know he's a yeah you it takes him four or five steps to really get to to max speed and once he does obviously he's the most terrifying man in football but getting him there can be trickier whereas Mitchell is as soon as he wants to go he can And and so them tapping into that a little bit, I do think especially if they're not going to use Lamar where the whole cell with this backfield last year was that Henry is your power and Lamar is your speed. Well, if you don't really want to run Lamar that much right now, which is totally warranted given his health, you kind of need to get Mitchell a little bit more activated and use him as your speed threat.

It's a really good point and I think that that's a good thought and I can see them tinkering, right? I can see them trying to find the right stuff. I think it's just taken them a while this year compared to last year which just f kind of felt like gang busters out of the gate.

Oh yeah. the passing game in this yesterday against Minnesota. I actually I didn't mind like the way that it looked down to down for most of this game. They had some frustrating moments in the red zone.

I I kind of thought like Lamar just did not play his best, but I thought like in terms of them doing the right stuff, I thought

I thought he played okay.

I thought he was fine. I think it's just like my standard for Lamar is like

what are like the plays you feel like he left on the field? There were a few throws over the middle of the field where I thought he was just triggering a beat late like on the Mark Andrews one that is like technically a drop.

He's he's like a tad late. He misses that. There's in the red zone to I think he's trying to throw they have like a double post concept from the right. He's trying to hit Baitman. He kind of tries to like line drive it through his back shoulder

where he kind of could just leave it on like give it a little bit of air, leave it on the

back throws where it just felt like he was a tick off was the Andrew Seam and that Baitman double post. And like when I think of Lamar, it's like he's a monster over the middle of the field. And so when you just chip away at a like a couple of those misses that he wouldn't normally have, it's like that's how it feels that way. I I think he played fine and as the year goes on, he'll obviously be fine. I just like that to me was part of the uneasiness that and then trying to find their footing in the run game. It's like that's how it can feel imperfect. So here's the reason that I was actually kind of encouraged in the way that it looked even with a couple of those misses.

I thought he looked more settled in the pocket than he has at times this year. And that to me was kind of the most worrying part of watching them for early stre in early stretches of the season. Like even that Lions game, we've talked about it a bunch where the final box score numbers and the advanced stats, they look okay, but it just felt like the offense was scattered whenever they dropped back. In this game specifically against, especially against a team that's going to be blitzing you on like half of your drop backs, I actually thought he felt pretty in command for a good chunk of the game. He was pressure nine quick pressures for the Vikings in this game. They had a 38% pressure rate overall. He was only sacked once.

He had one sack wiped off because of a Dallas Turner roughing call, but for the most part, they avoided disaster. His pressure to sack rate this year and the sheer amount of sacks he was taking earlier in the season was detrimental to the health of this passing offense. And so to see him not get sacked in a game where he was pressured a decent amount, that I liked to see. We talked a little about this in the previous show, but obviously the first the last game between Brian Flores and uh Lamar Jackson in 2021, it's kind of an inflection point for like how we think about Lamar against the Blitz. Watching him beat the Blitz in this game with his arm is just so so so much different than it was earlier in his career. And so the fact that he felt in command in those moments, he understood where to go with the ball on time. And it did feel like he was more comfortable within the pocket in this game that he has than he was earlier in the year. That kind of leads me to where I'm saying I actually felt good about the way that he played even if we had a couple of those scattershot moments.

I I do agree with that. Like I said, like he's I mean he's Lamar Jackson. He's probably going to be fine for the rest of the year. I do think him feeling settled in a game that like this is the one def I know the the Vikings defense this year overall has not been as good as we want it to be. First of all, the last couple weeks they have been for the most part.

They're they're healthier now.

They're getting healthier. And I will say too, like they I thought specifically their interior played really really well. Both like in the like a lot of the pop runs that they were getting were not because the defensive lineman the interior were doing something wrong. It was like an edge guy lost or they had a good read play or it was one of those crack toss plays or whatever it was. And so I thought the interior played well run game and pass game. And for Lamar to not really feel unsettled against all of that, that to me was like, okay, for the rest of the if they're going to make this run and go win the division, that was what you wanted to see. Cuz the middle of the field stuff that'll come back. He's Lamar Jackson. Like those throws, he's going to hit those throws.

I think that's kind of why I just I didn't think much about it. Even if he was a tick off in this game again, how how comfortable and calm he felt compared to early stretches of the season. That was encouraging to me. I'm with you on the interior of the Vikings offense or defensive line against the interior of this Ravens offensive line. That's part of the reason I think they've just struggled to find their footing in the run game is that they just aren't mowing people down. Like that's just not happening right now. You look at like and the Vikings are a unique challenge, right? So, the amount of stunting and the amount of like stunts and run blitzes that you're going to get, there's so many moving parts and trying to keep track of guys in space is difficult, but when you watch like the guards and even like Tyler Linder right now, it's just like there's just something missing here. Like I I hope they can find it cuz it is the same group for the most part other than swapping out McCary for Vorhees and even that only happened because of injury last year.

is the same group. And so I, I just, I'm wondering like, what that little secret sauce is that's missing because it does feel like there's something that's not there right now.

That is the part of it that's weird to me. Like, it's mostly the same guys outside of a replacement-level left guard. Like, the, the fact that it just feels a little bit more unsettled is a little bit weird to me.

All right, let's get to the other side of the ball. What was, what were your impressions of the JJ McCarthy experience one week after the Lions game?

I, I just don't think he's good, man. Like, I, I just, I know he, here's the problem of why he's the most frustrating quarterback to talk about. He does make three throws a game that are like, "Holy, the guy's got a hose." Like, there's really no denying that.

The touchdown to Jaylen Naylor in particular, where he like rips that corner to the right side on fourth and 10. I'm like, he can spin it. Like, he can spin it. But I still, the general...

Oh, the touchdown. I thought you meant the, the slot fade that he throws for 61 yards. That was, that was like, whatever. That was, that's why I responded that way. Yeah. Yeah.

No, the, yeah, the fade is like, he does a couple of those a game. Those are whatever. The, the corner route he throws on the fourth and 10 is like, okay, that's like, every now and then he can really spin it. I just get the sense that like, he's just, when I talked about like, obviously Drake May is like a really, really special talent in my mind, but when I watch May or even like Jaden Daniels last year, it just feels like settled. Every time I watch JJ McCarthy, it feels very, very frantic. Yes.

And I think it feels very frantic, and I think the guy I would compare it to in terms of like, the franticness, like Caleb Williams looks frantic sometimes as well. I just think Caleb Williams has a different sort of skill set that JJ McCarthy does. He's more talented. Goes wrong. Yes, that's like the ability to solve problems in the franticness. He has that gear in a way that JJ doesn't. I'm not trying to wave away the franticness. I do think that's a concern. But with JJ, I think there's less to...

...kind of talk yourself into while still feeling that way. I think that's the problem for me. It's when he'll get to the top of his drop, and he did this four, five, six times in this game. And when he's stepping up in the pocket, he'll almost like crow hop up in the pocket. Yes. Like, into the rhythm is bad. Like, there were multiple times, too. Sometimes he'll crow hop and it's like, just rhythm-wise weird. There were also multiple times in this game where he like...

...ducked down and was like trying to get under somebody that I just, his whole sense of pocket awareness right now, I just, I, I really struggle with it. And like, it's actually funny. I posted the other day on Blue Sky when I was watching Cam Ward. I was like, he just has the rhythm of a player who is good. Like, eventually this stuff will get figured out. He just like, rhythm-wise moves like someone who is good.

JJ McCarthy, I feel the exact opposite. I'm like, I watch this and the rhythm just feels wrong and disconnected. Do you think that's something that can get better? Like, this is somebody who is an extremely young player who has not played a lot of football. And I think it's different, but when I'm, I'm looking back at some of the other first-round picks who have ultimately struggled in their first stop, not failed necessarily because these are a lot of guys who have found success later, like Sam Darnold didn't play when he was young. And so I think sometimes when you're a really young player...

...if you had asked me this five years ago and been like, "Do you think that pocket awareness and the ability to navigate that space and how comfortable you feel in that space, is that innate or is that something that you can learn?" I think I probably would have leaned toward innate. Now, I do think that there are enough examples of guys kind of honing those skills over time that the fact that some of the physical stuff is there, and it really does feel like the rhythm and the feel is what he needs to develop. Is there any part of you that thinks that can happen with more time on task?

I think absolutely. I think I have two concerns with it right now. One being that like, to me, the, you're starting at about as low as you can in terms of like the, how the rhythm of it and just like his sense for the pocket. I think you're starting at a really, really low spot. The other thing too is like, in my mind, the guys who have figured it out, whereas Sam Darnold, I think he has figured this out. Gino Smith figured that out over the course of his career. Josh Allen, I think had a fine sense for the pocket, but his rhythm as a player was dog for the first two years. Like, he was, I don't know what type of notes he was playing. It was really, really...

...we're just going to like memory hole that 2018 Josh Allen was not good for the first couple of years. Um, and then Caleb Williams, I think obviously he's still imperfect, but I think this year is way better than it was last year. All those guys to me were just like way more talented as throwers. Gino Smith, maybe athletically, is probably not that different from JJ McCarthy. He was never like a super athlete, but I do think Gino's arm was better. Sam Darnold's arm is obviously insane. Caleb Williams, Josh Allen. I, I do think there's a level of the arm talent is almost like informative of the rest of the way that you move, can move your body in a way. And I do think with JJ, I just, I struggle with that sometimes. Like, when he throws, it just looks hard. Like, it, it looks like he's straining to throw the...

...That's the biggest difference between him and like a Sam Darnold. Like, Sam has like the easiest throwing motion that you can imagine. And with JJ, I do think that there's a little, there definitely is like a strain on some of these throws. There is not with some of the other guys that you're talking about.

Can work. Like Baker throws like that too, but also like it took Baker like five, six years of developing other parts of his game. And he even, he, I think came into the league with a higher baseline, just like played a lot more football, you know, one of the most accurate college quarterbacks we've ever seen, all that sort of stuff. So, it can work. Like, there are parts of JJ's game, like some of the imperfections we've seen other guys work out of, and obviously he's very young. I just, we're starting at what feels to me like a very, very low point. When it looks good, it looks good. Like the first, the first third and six of the game where he's getting rocked on that blitz and he throws the ball to JJ on the right on, like I was, I used to call Justin Jefferson JJ. Now it's confusing. So, when he throws the ball to Justin Jefferson in the right flat, it's like, "All right, that looks good." Uh, there was a throw he had to Justin Jefferson down the down the hash in the red zone, that is actually like not a bad ball.

That ball, that was his best throw of the day.

And that was like, and it doesn't get completed, but you watch that and it's like, all right, like, I, I could talk myself into that. Some of the throws he, some of the balls he has like on outbreaking routes, like on time, if it's a number one read in the progression, that looks pretty decent. But anytime he's asked to like read something out or go beyond what his first read looks like and he's asked to play without that initial rhythm of like, "I'm hitting the top of my drop, I'm throwing the ball." That's where he runs it into issues. Like, you see it all the time. The best example to me in this game was the near interception that he th— excuse me. It was batted down. It was the first play of the second quarter, and it was a play-action shot where if you watch it, there's an inbreaker coming to the left side, and then he has Hawkinson over the ball. And if this is a pure progression play, it should just take him to Hawkinson, which I assume it is. And instead, he throws like the crosser to, I think Jordan Addison, into double coverage, and it gets batted down at the line of scrimmage. If it hadn't gotten batted down at the line of scrimmage, that ball probably gets intercepted. And so that's one of those plays where it's just like, how do you even get to that decision? Like, it just... And there was another play where...

...he, it's like, it's kind of like a touchdown, a checkdown type thing where it's another play-action. He's looking at the deeper routes as they're unfolding. Then he comes back to the checkdown, and then he doesn't throw the checkdown, and then he comes back to the middle of the field, and it's like the rhythm, even mentally, the way that he's playing feels like there are issues with it combined with some of the problems you see with his rhythm physically. I think that's a really important thing because I think all these young players are going to be imperfect in one way or another. But at least, like, again, when I watch like Cam Ward, and the, the reason I'm using him is obviously same draft class and all that stuff. When Cam Ward makes mistakes, like the process is like pretty consistent to me, and I understand like the growing pains that he's going through. Whereas with JJ McCarthy, it just like, it feels like it's something different every play, and I can't even really like trace back what he was trying to do on a given play. And then there are just like, awareness-wise, some weird stuff with him. Like the first interception he throws...

...he climbs up in the pocket, and uh, Justin Jefferson is like, or I think it's Justin Jefferson. Yeah. Is running down like the right sideline, just inside of the numbers, and he steps up in the pocket, and he is, it's third and six. He is scot-free. There's nobody over the middle of the field. Maybe he would have to beat Roquan Smith at the sticks, but that's a play that every scrambling quarterback should take and go take that space. And instead of taking the space and trying to get to the six, he just chucks it up a balloon between the numbers. You cannot throw up a balloon in between the numbers right to the post, right to him.

Every, every free safety is going to get to that ball. That's just one of those things where it's like, take the grass in front of you. Like, what? Like, I don't know what he's, like, just it's certain plays like that where it feels like the spatial awareness and like really playing to what is around you, I think he just struggles with sometimes.

Yeah, I'm, I'm with you on that. I, I think that's a perfect example on that play. The second interception, don't really care about that.

Oh, the, the one, it's a one-man route. It's one-on-one to Justin Jefferson. He falls down. Like, that's a play where I don't mind it at all. But the, the first interception, that is, I, in my notes, I literally said, "Yikes." Like, that, that was my description for that play.

That one is bad. And then actually, his other maybe worst throw is the almost interception by Roquan Smith where he has Jordan Addison on the right side, kind of as the isolated receiver. Ravens are running a little bit of Cover 2, and Roquan Smith is the hook player to that side. And so he starts to sit under that route and like squeeze it. And McCarthy is staring at it the whole time. Like, he's in his head. He's like, "I'm throwing this ball to Jordan Addison." And he sees Roquan Smith squeezing it, and it's just like, "I can fit it past him." And it's like, you just, you got to do a little bit more than that than just like, "I can throw it past him." You got to do a little bit more with your eyes. You got to come back to it later. Whatever it is. And so him just staring that down. And again, with the way that Roquan Smith has been playing this year, like that's just, he's going to make those plays. And then the throw after that, he just like throws a 13-yard out over Justin Jefferson's head. Like, it just, it's, it's too much inconsistency like that for me.

I want to talk a little bit, and we'll talk about Roquan Smith and the defense in a second because he's playing crazy good right now. He's playing crazy good right now. So, and there are a lot of things that we should mention about the defense.

How do you feel about like the plan, the Vikings have on offense right now, independent from the play of the quarterback? Because those things are hard to separate, but this is yet another game, and this has happened a couple times this year. I'm trying to remember what the other example was when we went back and we were talking about it. It might have been the Falcons game. It was another game I think we did on the Hangover where I went back and I watched it and I was like, "Why is this the plan versus man coverage?" Like, it just feels like we're not getting a lot of rubs. We're not getting a lot of picks. Like, you have a lot of isolated routes where guys just aren't open. And in this game specifically, like, I don't think JJ McCarthy played well, but I also don't think there were a lot of guys open when the Ravens were playing man coverage. In this game, he finished four of 13 versus man coverage per Next Gen Stats. He had 87 yards on those throws. 61 of them came on that slot fade to Jaylen Naylor. So, it was like a non-starter whenever the Ravens were playing man. Some of that is the Ravens defense kind of finding a gear with their current personnel, but still, like, you have Justin Jefferson, you have Jordan Addison, you have like, real players here. I was just a little bit surprised at how hard it felt, independent of the quarterback play, whenever the Ravens decided to play man coverage in this game.

I mean, I, I think it's a couple of things. I think one, like, maybe he's just like, even if you're doing a lot of these like trying to create rub routes or whatever it is, like the quarterback still has to do some amount of looking through traffic, and maybe JJ is just not comfortable sorting that out yet. I also just think he's not very comfortable for the most part throwing the ball, like, between the numbers right now. And so I think that's why a lot of their, it's a lot of slot fades. It's a lot of these 12-yard outs, they keep throwing a lot of flat routes. Like, I think part of it is they are a little bit limited by what they think that he is capable of consistently. And this game, he did throw over the middle more than he had in the first handful of starts that he had. Like, he almost did not do it at all in those first few games. And so there was a little bit more of it in this game. But I think a lot of it is like, really trying to ease him in with throws that he is clearly comfortable with and then working in the rest later. Looking at the numbers this year, the Minnesota Vikings are 31st in the NFL in EPA per dropback against man coverage per media, and some of that's quarterback play, but again, it just feels like something is off when like, when teams want to play a lot of man against them, and that's how I felt again while watching this game.

Part of that again is the Ravens defense.

I like the Ravens defense.

They're good against... I will see what happens when they play against better offenses, right? Right. I mean, the teams that they've played against, they played against the Bears, who are have been playing okay, right? Like, the Bears are a top half of the league offense by EPA per play, and the Ravens had a really nice day against them three weeks ago. And then you play against the Dolphins, you play against the Vikings. And so I want to see them against better competition. But I, when I watch how the pieces are all supposed to fit together right now, there are a few different things that jump out to me. One, Roquan is like back. Yeah.

And like the, him erasing that space in the middle of the field consistently is really, really encouraging. Two, Kyle Hamilton's a monster, like with the way that they're deploying him. And I think that when you combine that with the corners being able to play the way they can in man coverage now, you really feel that. And so the fact that in even like when they're playing dime now, and you could watch Jobe Woei outside, and now you have Humphrey and Hamilton, like they just have a depth and a soundness in the defensive backfield they did not have before the Gilman trade, when they moved Hamilton, and even like...

...you felt the Draymond Jones thing.

Yeah.

Like, it just, like that, like one last piece in the front. Fact that you don't have Matt Bunk. You're still trying to figure out that group. Like, I, I feel really good about the trajectory of this group in a way that I would not have in the first like five weeks of the season.

It, it really is because it's everything. One, Hamilton is now being deployed in a way that he could just complete weapon. And so he's playing like a star. Roquan Smith looks like he's playing like a star again. I think Marlon Humphrey is having a really good season. Like, there have been vacillations with him every now and then, but like, he's been insane this year, I think. And so their three best players playing like their three best players, I think is super important. But then it's the other stuff with the front, like I think Travis Jones has been better than he was for the first month of the season. Um, obviously getting Draymond Jones has been in, in there has been nice. I think Mike Greene is having some decent games. Like, the linebackers are still a little bit up and down outside of Roquan Smith, but they're at least willing to come up and hit and take space, which I think is valuable. And then I talked about him a couple weeks ago. I really like Malachi Starks. Like, he's every now and then athletically you're like, ah, he's maybe not like one of those All-Pro kind of guys, but when you have two or three other All-Pros playing in the middle of the defense anyway, it's fine if he's just like a really good glue guy type of a racer. And I really do think that...

...yeah, I, I, I just think that he has that gear to him. I, I think he's a really, really nice player.

Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm curious to see where this unit goes from here. Like, if you look at like the season-long stats at this point, they're still not in a very good place because of how bad the early part of the year was, but I do think that like, we're kind of realizing a potential gear they might have. This game overall is not complicated to me. It's kind of a simple game for the most part. Like, I don't, there's only like three or four things I think you need to hit on in order to properly understand what this Chargers win looked like. Do you agree with that?

Yes. I, so this was one where it was very easy for us to like, kind of tune out in the moment because we were like, working on other games during, uh, obviously during this game. And as I was watching it, I was like, "Okay, clearly this game is disgusting, and the Steelers offense is being gross in a way that sometimes they're gross." When I turned on the film and watched what Aaron Rodgers was doing, I was mortified. Like, this was one of the, I think, most offensive games a quarterback has played all season.

It's just kind of what he is now, though. Like, if you...

...but it was like that versus a really good defense, and so that's what it looks like.

Well, so I think the biggest problem was against the Chargers, we know this. What do you need to do against the Chargers in order to have any semblance of success against them when they're like, a mildly healthy? If you can't run the ball on this team, it's over. Like, you need to be able to run the ball on this team based on how they want to play. The Steelers had a 22% rushing success rate into light boxes with Jaylen Warren last night per Next Gen Stats. It's over. Like, that is, if you can't do that, especially when you are the Steelers as constructed, it's just a non-starter. And so I do think that's a good place to start, just like with the Chargers' role in all of this. Yeah.

I thought every single guy on the Chargers front had a play in this game.

Every, every single one.

A boy had plays in this game. Jamar Cwell played really well. I thought that Deshaun Han had multiple really nice moments.

Like, quietly kind of nice this year, actually. Like...

...Cwell, like Cowell kind of coming on a little bit. And, you know, the Steelers had a backup left guard to start the game, and then they eventually moved, uh, Spencer Anderson to left guard, I think, because of some of the issues that they were having. But otherwise, healthy offensive line, and I think you felt...

...Tylor Tart multiple different times against the guards in this game, even Mason McCormack at right guard. And so, and then the, uh, Roger Jones had a couple moments where he struggled in pass protection. I think the O-line, one of the, my favorite things about it now that Mac is back is that it lets you move inside of these pass rush looks, and he's big and physical enough where you can use him on some of these stunts, and I actually really like, overall, like how that group is coming together. I was really impressed with the way that they played last night.

Their edge group, now that Mac is back and they've traded for Oa, is way deeper, and they just have, it's a lot of different body types, too, because like Mac is, I mean, he's kind of the do-it-all. He's incredible. There was, he blew up Darnell Washington on like, setting the edge, like when they were, when the Steelers were backed up in their own, he just exploded him. And that's what he does. That's why I like watching him. But so Mac is Mac. Bud Dupree is like a fine, like backup.

He helps you set the edge and like run defending. He's like your Khalil Mack light. I think he's a good body for that. Tuli is just like a really crafty pass rusher. He's a bigger guy. I think he's really good with his hands. Like a good effort type of guy that you want in your room. And then Oa is just like, all speed, all the time. So now they truly have like a body type for everything, which I really think is nice. And then to, to go onto the front a little bit more, I think Denzel Perryman is actually playing like a really good football.

They missed him when he was not playing. They actually missed him.

He, he's insanely. I think he's like, obviously in coverage, he mostly is what he is. He actually did have one good play in this game, but like going downhill in the run game, he is an absolute problem. The other guy that I wanted to mention on the defense in this game, who I actually thought had some really nice moments, Nico Reed.

Yeah.

Undrafted free agent playing in the slot because they're currently without Tar Heaton, who was hurt. He's missed the last two games. Nico Reed played 21 snaps in this game. He had played 15 his entire career up to this point, 14 last week.

And he had a couple really nice moments in coverage. He had like a PBU. I was very impressed with him. And so the fact that you're getting all of these contributions, even from like, end-of-the-bench sort of players, that was the type of performance it was from the Chargers defense last night. Like, completely across the board, a really, really good showing. Yeah. I, I was just like, this was when they were having some of their struggles for the first like seven weeks. I mean, relative struggles. They were never bad. They were just like, kind of mediocre when they should have been elite. This is what it's, again, the Steelers offense. But the Steelers offense has been fine. So again, this is one of those, like, if you're one of the best defenses, this is the type of offense you should beat the out of. And they absolutely did that on Sunday.

What the, what the Steelers offense looked like yesterday is kind of just what I expected an Aaron Rodgers offense to look like in 2025 against a bad defense or against a good defense. We talked about this all offseason. He wants to play a very, very specific brand of football, and if you know what that looks like, you can absolutely extinguish it with the way that you're game planning. The fact that there are multiple plays in this game...

...where Bud Dupree is taking away throwing windows because he's dropping off the line of scrimmage because they know exactly where he's going to want to go with these throws immediately. It's very easy to take this team, to take away what this team wants to do if you're not letting them run the ball and use play action. And that's just what it feels like. The only quarterbacks right now after this game in the NFL that have a worse passing success rate per Next Gen Stats than Aaron Rodgers, you ready?

Justin Fields, Jake Browning, Russell Wilson, Cam Ward, JJ McCarthy, and Dylan Gabriel.

So, rookies and like the other worst quarterbacks in the league.

Guys who've gotten benched.

Yeah.

Or like almost benched.

Yeah.

Every single one is an underperforming rookie that people are freaking out about, guys who have actively been replaced, or a quarterback who was openly trashed by ownership and during an interview and was almost replaced.

And, and had like 40 yards this week of passing...

...on non-playaction throws this season. 63% of Rodgers's passes have come in less than two and a half seconds because it's all just like, pick a side. That's what it was last year. We knew that's what it was going to be. He does not want to play the position anymore. And that was why the run game is important because if they're running the ball, then they can do some of their play action stuff. They can stay a little bit heavier and they can like, kind of force him out of it in a way like Arthur Smith can a little bit do more what he wants.

You can intercept him and you're doing what you want him to do.

Exactly. And if you can't run the ball, it comes back to, okay, second and eight, Rodgers is going to pick a side. And the thing is, that can be fine if you're seeing it at a really, really high level. He's just not anymore. Like, even on the first third and four to open this game, the Chargers have DK Metcalf in the slot to the left-hand side, and the nickel is playing inside leverage, and DK Metcalf runs a slant, and Rodgers looks like he doesn't understand why the route was cut off. Mike, you're 40 years old. You've seen this a million times. Like, it's just, it's just way too much stuff like that for a guy who, again, this is supposed to be what he's good at. You can't see it well when all you want to do is make decisions pre-snap. There's only, you can only see it so well when that's the way that you're operating playing the position. And that's why I was so...

...skeptical about this working out overall because when you watch the way that he played last year, it's like he doesn't want to read out the plays anymore. Like, you can only do so much as an offense when that's the way that your quarterback wants to play. And I think last night was the low point of it. But I'm not surprised that we've gotten here based on the last two years we saw of Aaron Rodgers as a starter. Goes back to Green Bay, who's doing the same in Green Bay the last year we saw him there. And so this is not a new problem. I just think now we're realizing the limitations when your quarterback wants to play this way.

When they play against the real defenses, this is what it's going to look like. They'll probably have a couple of decent games the rest of the year against lesser defenses, but when they play the real teams, when they rock up to Baltimore, whatever it is, it's going to look more like this. Let's get to the other side of the ball. Again, this is a very, very simple conversation for me. The Chargers could do two things in this game, most for the most part. Two. They could spit the ball out into the perimeter immediately.

Yep.

Okay. All those alert screens.

Okay. That's, and that that is an option for you. Or is Lad McKee going to beat the nickel corner across his face over the middle of the field? Those are the two things that was enough over the course of this game for them to win because of what their defense did against the Steelers.

That was legitimately it. And there was, okay, some of the alert screen stuff, I actually, they went through it too much in this game. I want to be clear about that. They threw literally like 10 of them.

I honestly don't mind it. It was, it was one of the only things they could do.

It literally was not that bad. And I also think like that's the best way to use Quentin Johnston. He's a big guy who can move. If you can spit him the ball out like that against off coverage, like he can make a guy miss. And they were, I think two or three different times in this game where he did that where they're playing eight yards off. Herbert just rips it. The most imp— I know this is a ridiculous thing to say, is impressive, but there was an alert screen that they had where Herbert has the, the isolated receiver, I think it's Quentin Johnston, is lined up outside of the numbers, and from the far hash, he immediately throws this alert screen to the other side. That sounds dumb, but like, there are not many quarterbacks who have the immediate arm strength to snap it out. All the, usually when you're doing that, it's like the guy's lined up like just inside the numbers, and it's like not that far of a throw. He was ripping it all the way to the sideline, which was like, that's crazy that you can get that out there. Um, and then honestly, on the Lad McKee play, the one that he catches on the deep over on that third and six to end the game, it's an okay throw. I think Lad McKee makes an insane play there. Like, he slows down to make sure that he can get that throw and like block the receiver out of it. I, I, I thought him doing that and like making the quarterback right there was really important. Justin Herbert in this game, 30% of his attempts came behind the line of scrimmage. He was 10 of 10 on those throws for 67 yards. They were some of the best plays they had in this game. Typically, I would have scored eight in offense for operating this way. It is the most dishonorable thing that you can do. But in this game, when you can't function, you cannot hold up in pass protection if you're hanging on to the ball. He had a 2.21 second time to throw in this game, and still had pressure, was a 30% pressure rate.

I was going to say, he's probably still pressured a third of the time anyway. You, you watch it happen, and that's why it, you watch this game and it honestly is kind of depressing because you look at like the state of the offensive line, and I understand that Joel is hurt, Joel's not coming back at this point.

And the three guys in the interior are the three starters that you began the season with, and the center and the right guard specifically are playing about as poorly as anybody else on the offensive line yesterday. And so the fact that this is the state of affairs, and you, I understand the Steelers front is a different sort of beast than a lot of the ones that you're going to play against, but you are going to have to play against teams like the Broncos in the playoffs. You're going to have to play against the Rams in the Super Bowl if you get there. Like, teams like that, you're going to have to play against Micah Parsons and all those kinds of...

...the Ravens. What if you're like the fifth or sixth, you run into them? It's just...

...good teams are going to have pass rushes. And so, even if it's not quite to the level that the Steelers have, it's going to be a consideration. And this group is just not equipped to hold up. And so it's the way that the defense played last night. It's like a, like the defense is back now, a little bit. Our producer Katie dropped this in. They're number one in defensive EPA over the past three weeks. Like, you feel that.

And they are, they are playing at a pretty good clip right now. And the quarterback, you know, he almost threw a pick to what was the...

Joey Porter. That was a bizarre...

...that like he's got one of those a game at this point. But what is being asked of him like...

...you're throwing 40 times and getting hit every play.

He gets one, he, he gets one of those a game at this point. He's playing at an extremely high level. The defense is really good. I, I just, it's hard to muster up a lot of excitement about this team when you look at the current state of the offensive line. That's where I fall.

Different team, obviously, but it's a little bit of like where we're at with the Niners. It's like, there are parts of this that I enjoy and are impressive, but ultimately, like, some of this is just like way too beat up and stripped down that it, it's hard to imagine them being a true contender. And the Herbert thing really does, it's frustrating because I, I, I really think I'm spoiling the our mid-season show a little bit. I really think if I had to like rank MVP candidates, he would be like third for me. Like, he is, the numbers are impossible to argue him for the MVP, but just in terms of like, valuable, the most for their team, who is the most...

...load-bearing player, like Herbert is absolutely up there.

I, he's in the conversation for sure, based on like, what is being asked of him within that offense. And I think that yesterday was a very good example of it. Like, you look at the final box score, he didn't do anything crazy. It's not a good Justin Herbert game, but what is being asked of him given the current state of that pass protection now that Alt is hurt again? It's a non-starter for pretty much any other guy you could put in there.

All right, let's get to our sole Monday morning voicemail and hitting that one at the top of the show. We've got one sad fan from yesterday that we want to help talk through their issues. Katie, let's hear it.

Hey guys, I just crawled in the bed after driving home from Charlotte. It's been a long day. I went into this week with some actual expectations. It was like I was letting myself start to feel again after it felt like we beat a legitimately good team. But then I watched the Panthers put up seven whole points against the Saints team that is actively rostering multiple corpses at a lot of times to mentally decay on the drive home. And now I'm standing on the cliff's edge of being done with Bryce again, which at first feels like an overreaction, but what has he actually done this year to look like a starter? And I am just tired of 200 rush yards and 125 passing yards being my, my offense is plan A, and then not having any kind of plan B. But yeah, I, I'm, I'm not even sure I have a fully formed question here. I just need something to undo the damage of the day. Maybe I'll just start getting into hockey or something. But yeah, thanks guys.

No, you don't have to get into hockey. It's never going to be that bad. I like hockey, but you don't have to give up football hockey.

We talked a lot about this last night, and I think if there is some silver lining here, it's that there is a decent amount of stuff about this team overall that I think you can buy into, right? We talked about the last couple weeks, you notice like the pieces on defense and them flashing. Like, Derrick Brown is a good player. Trevor Meirk has been a good free agent signing. JC Horn, when he can stop falling down, is a very good quarterback. There, there's a lot...

...have games like that. The only thing you do, he's, he's had some amazing moments this year, right? And so I do think, and you know that the defense was always going to be a work in progress. There are still plenty of spots, off-ball linebacker, and then just corner depth overall, that was something that they're going to need to address heading into next offseason. They knew that, right? Like, they knew this was about getting from historically bad to bad, right? Like, that, that was the goal. Can we go from historically bad to slightly below average? And that's exactly what has happened. And so I think the vision is, is on that side of the ball has has come into place, even if it's not a great group. On offense, I think there's a lot to like. I think there's a lot to get excited about. Like, this is an offensive line that has not been healthy all year, and they still have been able to run the ball on their terms consistently. D.J. Moore looks like a fantastic free agent signing, right? Like, he's been really, really good. And I do think McMillan, despite some of the health of the passing game concerns, he's somebody that you can get really pumped about. So, there are a lot of component parts here. They've got $30 million in cap space next year. They're in a place, like we discussed last night. It probably is time to think about what this team would look like with a different quarterback. The avenues to finding that guy are going to be limited. But to be in a place where, in your mind, you can actually rationalize, "If we get the right guy in here, what can it look like?" That's a tough place to land when you consider everything they gave up for Bryce Young. But there are worse places to be as an NFL franchise.

That's the thing. It's tough because you have to go do it, and trying to find the quarterback is like, it's, it's impossible. But to be five and five with some of the worst quarterback play in the league is actually, in a way, like, kind of a cool spot to be in. Like, I, I really do think like the offensive line, especially if they got a little bit healthier, like they really do have something. I mean, they have one of the best guards in the league right now. I think Damien Lewis has been unbelievable. And so if they can get a little bit healthier there, that would be great. And then again, Tevin McMillan, I think he's going to be a superstar. The running backs are really good. The defense is, again, it's not good, but like, you've got one, some of the pieces that they've signed have been nice for them, like Meirk, I think has been nice. Um, obviously you draft JC Horn and give him the extension, he looks like he's been all worth it. I think Nick Scorton has actually like really started to come along the past three or so weeks for them. And so, okay, you've got a little bit of young, exciting draft, uh, edge that you can get excited about. Like, I really do think, and to me, like the other thing is, I kind of like where the coaching staff is at. Like, there's nothing where I'm like, they're the Sean McVay Rams and I think they're going to explode. But I think they're like checking the box for like, this is a quality coaching staff. It really is. It's just like, can you find the quarterback? And that's a tough spot. But like, I don't know if they can find whatever the crown jewel is, whatever that means. I, I really do think they're in a decent spot.

We'll see what, how this draft ends up shaking out and whether or not there's a prospect available in the middle of the first round that you feel good about. I just came to something that I had not thought about previously, and you're probably the wrong person to ask about this. In-division might be tough. You call this the Ratman. The honestly, the Saints kind of seem like they're in a place where they don't really like care so much about like what other people are thinking about what they're doing. So they might be willing to trade in the division a little bit. Like, they're, I think they're done with it with Rattler. So, I mean, you might as well have to call...

...this offseason where it's like, if you, if it's either Tyler Shough or somebody you're drafting, and Spencer Rattler's going to be at best a backup for you moving forward based on what we have seen from him so far this year, like that's kind of what I'm, I, I don't need to see this team with like elite quarterback play. I kind of am curious what they would look like with capable quarterback play. And so, I, it's going to require some creativity this offseason to figure out what the right answer is. And, you know, we joked a little bit about it last night. It, it's only a joke because of the similarities between the players. Like, I actually do think from a football perspective, Kyler Murray in this spot is at least interesting to me. Maybe there's a chance where like teams would never draft or never hire...

...a, a coach with like the same background as the coach they just fired. Like, that would never happen. So maybe it's possible that the Panthers are like, "We can't trade for a tiny do the 5'10"...

...quarterback." Even if I, I think that that, that's a lack of vision. Like, just...

...because the other one is like built in, like every other aspect about him athletically is insane compared to Bryce Young. And so, I, the fact that again, we're in a place where I'm actively sitting there like, in quiet moments, figuring out how the Panthers can solve their quarterback issue and what this team would look like with different quarterback play. That's not a fun place to be as an NFL fan. But I promise you, you know this as a Panthers fan, there are much, much worse places to be than that. It's better than needing all of it. Yes, at least you really just need the big thing. And again, Robert Hunt comes back next year. He's been hurt all year. You've got a lot of the component parts of this roster, the important pieces coming back next year. The only guys that...

...So, Dow's a free agent, right? And so, that's something that you have to potentially figure out.

The only other guy that's hitting free agency, uh, for this group this year that I've actually thought was like, really good this season, and I'm curious what they do, is Cade Mays.

Yeah, I'm, I'm curious what they do. Like, even yesterday, the fact that they kept him at center when he was healthy, and they put Corbett at guard, I think really does tell you what we've gotten from him so far this year. And so the fact that even that stuff is happening where you're like, stumbling into guys worth being excited about, that's not a terrible place to be as a fan. So hopefully you don't have to just start watching exclusively hockey. Hopefully that was a little bit helpful.

All right, that is all we've got for the Week 10 Hangover. Like I mentioned at the top of the show, please check out our Eagles-Packers recap that is available on your YouTube feeds right now. So, mentioned this on social media today. We had 50,000 subscribers on the YouTube channel today. You know, it's, I'm happy with that. I'm like, I, it's been a journey with the YouTube channel. It's something that, you know, we've taken a while to kind of figure out what we wanted it to be and where we wanted it to go. And, you know, if you go check out the type of stuff we're doing right now, it's different than anything we've ever done. Obviously, all the stuff that we're doing from the studio, but, you know, Derrek's doing a standalone video project every single week. This week was about all the heavy personnel groupings that the Bills are using and kind of why they've been able to tap into that, why teams are trying to seek that out. You know, the fact that we have access to these NFL highlights has really allowed us to do stuff that we've never been able to do before. Got great production people on the back end now. People like Katie and Scott who've come on for us this year. And so, I'm excited about where it's at. I'm excited about where it's going. If you have not subscribed to the YouTube channel, now is the time. It's your only way to check out those Monday and Thursday recaps and all the other YouTube-specific stuff that we're doing. And if you haven't watched the Sunday night recap shows on YouTube, we've got highlights in real time now. We've got a lot of new graphics. And so this year feels a little bit different on the YouTube side. And so if you have not looked at what we're doing over there, I'd encourage you guys to check it out. We would appreciate it. For now, that is all we've got. We will talk to you later. Thanks for watching. Follow the Athletic Football Show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube.