Transcription
Why is the topic of the millennium so hotly contested? Like, what's at stake with this theological issue? Is the church supposed to be taking over the world politically? The culture war falls into that. Is the church supposed to be submitting the the laws of this nation to the lordship of Christ? Or is that something we await in the future when Jesus returns? So it has implications for how we live out our lives as disciples.
Revelation 20 has been called the most controversial chapter in the Bible. The lake of fire, the great white throne judgment, the millennium. All these are in one chapter. And how you think about them biblically and theologically have huge practical implications for your personal life and how you engage culture. Here to unpack these with me back due to popular demand from the short series we did, people are like, "Can you give me more of this guy?" Dr. Alan Holberg, New Testament professor here at Talbot. So, thanks for being willing to do more of a deep dive with me on the specific issue of the millennium in Revelation 20.
>> Sure. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
>> Oh, yeah. This is this is a treat. This is fun. So, let's jump right in. I want to ask first, why is the topic of the millennium so hotly contested? Like, what's at stake with this theological issue?
Mhm. Um really the the reign of Christ, what what is the reign of Christ? What does that uh look like? Um so we will I'm sure talk about the the different views on the millennium. But on the one hand uh one view has a a heavenly reign of Christ. There is not an earthly geopolitical reign of Christ in in one view. Another view has the church introducing the geopolitical reign of Christ. That is the the hope of the church is to evangelize the world, submit all governments in the world uh to to uh the lordship of Christ. Um and a final view uh has the reign of Christ literally on earth. Jesus will return, establish uh an earthly government and rule over the nations of the earth.
So, so one of the issues it has to do with what's the role of the church in all of that. Is the church supposed to be taking over the world politically?
>> Uh the culture war falls into that. Uh is the church supposed to be um submitting the the laws of this nation to the lordship of Christ or is that something we await in the future when Jesus returns? So it has implications for how we live out our lives as disciples.
Okay. So the cultural war in one sense if talk to me about how one's view the millennium would play that out with a little more specificity.
>> Sure. So let me just say one one of the positions on the millennium is called postmillennialism.
>> Uh it posits that the church will establish the millennium on earth which is in their definition the submission of the nations to the lordship of Christ. And that means geopolitically that means that means le you know the the laws of nations will be um uh um under the lordship of Christ often um even uh under the mosaic uh um um standards. Yeah. Um, and so if that's the role of the church, if the church is not merely to evangelize and win souls who then individually are in submission to Christ, but actually win nations and governments and uh legal codes into submission to Christ, then the culture war is something the church must be involved in. Um if in fact that is not the call of the church then the culture war uh takes on a different flavor and so um yeah um other positions on millennialism and and premillennialism would not see the the culture war as a um as a mandate of the church or as the even the um expectation of the church. the church uh not only is called to do it but will eventually be successful in doing in in doing so.
>> That's remarkable to think about. This passage in Revelation 20 that we're going to get to >> has profound implications how we interpret this for how we interact with government where we expect history headed >> what the reign of Christ looks like in the future that plays itself out very very practically. And so it's not just this distant or I guess you could say with Revelation future thing that's going to happen. What we think about how it's going to happen is going to affect the way we think about our lives, interact with culture in the present.
Okay. So before we get to the millennium, there's a lot going on that I read earlier in Revelation 20.
>> So maybe gives us some context as broad as you want to go that would help us kind of narrow down on the millennium itself.
>> Sure. Um, so Revelation 20, oddly enough, follows Revelation 19, uh, which is a depiction of the return of Christ, although that's debated as well. Um, the question is, does Revelation 20 chronologically follow the return of Christ? Um, and so, um, the the events that occur in Revelation 20, and in particular, not all of Revelation 20, but the millennium, that part of Revelation 20, the events that occur are the beast and the false prophet uh, are thrown into the lake of fire. And then Satan is bound >> and, uh, thrown into the abyss and it's all locked and everything so that he can't deceive the nations any longer for a thousand years. So, millennium means 1,000 years in an anglicized version of Latin.
>> Okay.
>> And um and then the uh there's a resurrection of uh the saints. Um it's depicted as a resurrection of the martyrs. Um and they live and reign with Christ for that thousand years. So, there's a thousand-year reign of Christ. And then uh at the end of that thousand years, Satan is released. He gathers uh the nations against the uh the camp of the saints against the government of Christ and uh is then ultimately defeated and thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are. And so the the millennium, those events of chapter 20 um are is the period of time in which Christ reigns and Satan is bound. Um following the release of Satan and his judgment being thrown into the lake of fire, we have a general resurrection >> uh the great white throne judgment as you uh mentioned and then um some going to the lake of fire and others uh into the the new heavens and the new earth.
Okay.
>> And that begins then in chapter 21.
>> That's helpful. So, it's in the middle. Like I said earlier, you've got the lake of fire. You've got the great white throne judgment. You've got the return of Christ. This is a very dramatic climactic moment in world history in which the millennium is placed. Let's take these three views in really no particular order, one by one, >> and I'm going to have you kind of explain them and offer some of the biblical evidence for it. And then I've got a couple follow-up questions. But let's start with a millillennialism.
Yeah. >> What is that view and what are some of the biblical passages people might cite to support that view?
>> Right. Yeah. So, a millennialism um literally means no millennium. And uh and a all millennialists do believe in a millennium, but they don't believe in a millennium that follows the return of Christ to earth. So their understanding of the millennium is Christ's present reign in heaven. So at the ascension uh Acts chapter 1, Luke chapter 24, >> Jesus uh sat down at the right hand of God and began his messianic reign. And um and so all millennialists would say um that is the millennium. And when uh the church on earth which experiences sometimes called uh the church militant uh it's it's on earth experiencing a a battle against satanic forces. Uh when someone dies they are then uh resurrected to to heaven and uh and there they live in the millennial kingdom of Christ and that that becomes the church triumphant.
Um uh generally all millennialism uh all millennialists and postmillennialists which we'll talk about will argue for some of the same uh based on some of the same passages. So um in Revelation 16 um the nations of the earth are called to a war called uh Armageddon or we call it Armageddon. um in uh Revelation 19, the return of Christ and the the the the defeat of the beast and the nations that are allied with the beast um resisting the return of Christ is depicted. And then in Revelation 20 after Satan is released, he he gathers the nations to the war. It uses uh a definite article there. And uh the argument is the war is the same as the war of revelation 16, the war of revelation 19, namely the battle of Armageddon. And so the argument is Revelation 20 goes back in time uh before Revelation 19.
>> So the the return of Christ, the defeat of the beast happens at the end of the millennium in Revelation 20. Um the uh in the in the past this has changed because of pressure actually from premillennialists.
>> In the past all millennialists understood the um the the future hope of the saints to be an eternal life in heaven with Christ. And so it was a uh you know the sort of the beatotific vision I would you would you would live in the presence of Christ and just en enjoy the vision of God forever in this sort of spiritual existence. But it became clear that salvation encompasses not just the salvation of human souls but of God's creation itself. M
>> and so um all millennialists began to recognize that the promise of the new heavens and the new earth was an earthly promise >> that um the saints would live and reign with Christ forever on earth. And so, um, there used to be a a major distinction between sort of the esqueological hope of all millennialists and that of premillennialists who who would see an earthly reign of Christ.
>> We'll get there.
>> Uh, yeah, we'll eventually get there. Um, now that's not quite so different. So, there are premillennialists who will agree Christ is reigning now in heaven. The messianic reign has begun. The question is is it >> has it become has it happened in its fullness or will it happen in greater clarity uh after the return of Christ.
Okay. So I hopefully I understand this. The millenn the amillennial position is that the millennial period began when Christ returned and we're in that period right now.
>> No. Okay. I missed it. Okay. Yeah. When Christ ascended to heaven, after his death and resurrection, >> y >> when he ascended to heaven, the millennium began. It will end when Christ returns.
>> I So I said Christ's return. I meant when Christ came, but it was the first.
>> Yes. I was like, what did I miss? But got it. But the ascension would indicate his reign. So the millennium is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It's just a thousand years for some period of time, whatever that time may be.
>> Yes. Okay. So, postmillennialism and premillennialism interpret that period as a thousand years though as a whole.
>> Uh, for the most part, >> I would say there are some who do, but most don't. Most still understand the thousand years to be a figure or to be um okay >> nonliteral >> non literal number but an actual literal reign.
>> A literal event. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, that's correct. But not literally a thousand years. Um, it's just means a long time or some something along those lines. Um, yeah. So, postmillennialism.
>> Now, hold hold I want to come to postmodernism. So, how how does Satan fit into the millennial reign from an amillennial perspective?
>> Yeah. So the binding of Satan, they will usually point to the language uh he is bound so as not to deceive the nations any longer. Um and um for them that means Satan will not be able to resist the advance of the gospel that um the nations will be able to turn to to Christ. Um, I have some reasons why I don't think that's the case, but but um >> we'll we'll circle back to some of those reasons.
So, Satan is active as he was before, but not as active because he can't prevent the gospel from advancing.
>> That's right.
>> Okay, got it. So, presumably on a millennial, Jesus will return great white throne judgment, new heavens and new earth. Still future events that are coming because we're in that millennial reign right now.
That's correct.
>> Okay, got it. Uh how do you have a sense of how prominent amillennialism is today or any key figures that maybe talk about that or
>> uh yeah some so key figures would be it is so yes it's quite prominent >> um probably well it's hard to quantify these things but among scholars um it is at least as prominent as premillennialism and perhaps more prominent >> um if I include all New Testament scholars and not just evangelical scholars.
Fair.
>> Um um Greg Beiel for instance who wrote an excellent commentary on the book of Revelation. He's an all millennialist. Uh Sam Storms is a pastor theologian uh who has an excellent uh defense of amillennialism. Uh those would be some prominent voices on that side.
Do we tend to find certain denominations that are more ammillennial than others?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, most reformed denominations uh whether that's Presbyterian, uh Christian reformed or other reformed denominations tend to be all millennial. um Lutheran churches and Catholic churches often tend and Catholic theology tends to be amalillennial although there's minority voices in those well and in the in reformed churches as well but yeah those denominations uh because amalillennialism was the dominant Protestant approach to esquetology um well even the the dominant Christian approach to esque from about the time of Augustine until uh until about the time of the Protestant Reformation, but the reformers themselves were were all millennial.
So, a thousand years plus.
>> Yeah. >> At least. And when you say dominant, like you did a review, Eric taught us were in here talking about the discussion we had on hell.
>> Yeah. And the view annihilationism is like an extreme minority view. So there's that that hell is some kind of eternal conscious torment is by far the dominant view.
When you say dominant, is it akin to that level? Really?
>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So in the early church >> interesting >> uh the the evidence that we have from the church fathers um the antiyene fathers the the um the leaders of the church whose writings we have there are the leaders of the church obviously whose writings we don't have but the leaders of the church whose writing we have who were um who were uh ministering before the council of Na which was 325 >> um before about the time the church began to be uh the endorsed state religion of the Roman Empire. The church earlier than that uh tended to be premillennial >> um and um and it was for sure the dominant voice among among the church fathers. Now there were >> minority voices at that time. There's a um a good book that argues for the fact that there were minority voices at that time, but the dominant view was for sure premillennialism. Augustine at by the Augustine is generally credited with >> kicking off a millennialism.
>> So credited or criticized, however you look at it.
>> However you look at it. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Fair enough.
>> And um and that then became the dominant view. Interestingly, when the church uh yeah became centralized as the state church um premillennialism, this this sort of esqueological hope of vindication at the end >> waned, you know, and there was it was easier to live with, I'm not saying this is all the motivation or anything, but it was easier to live with an esquetology that was uh less apocalyptic as premillennialism.
>> Oh, that that makes sense. That's I'm sure there's a huge interesting backstory here. I'm tempted to go into, but I'll let it sit. So, on millennialism, just as a reminder, is that the millennial millennium is an actual event that we are in that was kicked off by the coming of Jesus. And the great white throne, uh, return of Jesus, new heavens and new earth are still future events. And Satan is bound in the sense that he's active but cannot prevent the growth and spread of the gospel. Is that a fair summary?
>> Very, very good.
>> Awesome. All right, let's move now to postmillennialism.
>> So, what is it and what's the biblical evidence people say?
>> So, postmillennialism, we'll read the evidence of of what's generally referred to as recapitulation that Revelation 19 goes back in time before Revelation 20. um that is the millennial part of Revelation 19 goes back in time. Well, some postmillennialists would would argue even all of Revelation 19 and even um even the New Jerusalem, etc. goes uh is is uh goes back in time. Um u however it keys on uh passages like the gates of hell will not prevail against the the confession of Christ that um the the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that u starts off small but then grows into this massive uh things that the birds of the air perch in its branches. um it's it's like leaven that goes into a lump and then eventually leavenvens the whole lump. They they understand that as saying the church will eventually Christianize the world. That the kingdom of God will eventually through the evangelistic and um uh political efforts of the church take over the world. And that once the church has done that then uh Christ will reign from heaven through the church over the nations of the world literally. M
>> um and for a thousand years uh or some long period of time.
>> Real period of time.
>> That's right.
>> After which he will return and establish the new heavens and the new earth.
>> Yeah. And so um those are some of the passage they they point to the same sorts of phenomena in Revelation uh uh 19 uh to to argue for recapitulation as well. There are some strong arguments for recapitulation. Um uh one besides the the the idea of the war um in uh in Revelation 12 um it's talks about Satan being cast out of heaven >> and um or the ancient dragon the devil being cast out of heaven and he comes down to earth having great wrath and he is uh He's able to prosecute a war against the saints that lasts for a short time. He knows his time is short. And in Revelation 19, when Satan is released, it said he is released for a short time.
>> And so they would argue that's that's what leads to the the battle of Armageddon.
>> Interesting. I could see that. So tell me how Satan fits into postmillennialism. It it's the it would be the same um sort of approach that he is he's not totally ineffective during the the uh period of the church. He is just uh restrained from u um stopping the advance of the church.
>> So are there on this view there's certain things we should anticipate and expect like clear signs about when Jesus is going to come back on a post postmillennial view.
Yes. And and in some cases on on a nom millennial view, again, there's there are differences of opinion among postmillennialists and millennialists. Um but in general, they would um um admit that before Christ comes back, there is going to be a rebellion against u the reign of Christ and um and that when he comes back, he will put down that rebellion. So often uh they will still look for an antichrist uh figure although >> uh frequently um their all millennialists would would um understand antichrist to be more of a of a um a figurative thing or um it's a view called idealism. It's a um the antichrist is a you know like the spirit of antichrist and he can manifest himself in various different ways in opposition to the reign of Christ. But generally they they would still be able to look for uh a an actual a militant uh opposition to the reign of Christ before the return of Christ.
>> Yeah.
>> Who are some figures? So a how prominent is this today?
>> Yeah.
>> And who are maybe some of the key figures that argue for it?
>> Yeah. Um I it's not as prominent as premillennialism or amalennialism but I think it has been gaining in prominence. It used to be quite prominent um uh especially uh after the age of the enlightenment leading into the uh early 20th century >> um when the church when there was a very um hopeful uh esquetology in the church and which generally um motivated the missions movement. um we're going to get out there and evangelize the entire world and uh things will get better and better and better. We're moving into the millennium >> and World War I and World War II uh put a put the brakes on that on that optimism.
>> And so now generally postmillennials would say, well, we're moving in the right direction, but it's incremental. It's up and down. You know, that sort of a thing. and and it says that the church is not fulfilling its role as it should be fulfilling. We need to get out there and motivate the church to to evangelism and to um political activism and things like that. Um, so it's gaining a little bit but it it lost a lot of traction in the 20th century. Um, yeah, but not it's not as prominent as a millennialism or post I mean premillennialism. Yeah,
>> I think there is.
>> Oh, and I'm sorry you asked me. Kenneth Gentry, for instance, is >> okay.
>> He is a um very prominent postmillennialist and has written done a lot to try to try to um advocate in publications for for postmillennialism. I think there was a magazine called the Christian century like the end of the 1800s leaving in the 1900s and just the idea that the 20th century be this great Christian explosion movement like you said shattered by World War I and World War II uh for so many different reasons.
Okay. So we've talked about amillennialism, postmillennialism. Third, again no particular order would be premillennialism. So what is it and what's some of the key biblical passages offered in support?
>> Yeah. So both amillennialism and postmillennialism the reason this is called postmillennialism uh argue that Christ returns after the millennium. Okay. So amillennialism that happens but the millennium is not an earthly reality. Uh postmillennialism it is an earthly reality. Premillennialism says Christ returns before the millennium.
>> Okay, let me jump in real quick. Hey, quick pause. I want to tell you about a Bible study tool that I've used for 25 years. It is one of only two sponsors I have on this channel along with Tab School Theology. Why? Because I deeply believe in it and I've deeply benefited from it and I want you to consider using it. It's called Logos and the tools it offers at your fingertips will blow you away. I use it preparing for interviews. I use it in my personal Bible study in the morning. And I even used it when I was writing my dissertation. That means it's a tool that can be used by scholars who want to go deep and lay people who just want to get into the scriptures for themselves. If you want to learn how to study the Bible for yourself and just own and know the scriptures, you will not find a better tool than Logos. I'd love for you to consider trying it out. start a free 60-day trial which you can find at logus.com/mcdow. Link is in the description. Now, back to the show.
Okay, so on millennialism, we're in the millennial reign. Christ comes back afterwards.
>> Yes,
>> postmillennialism, we're not in the millennial reign yet, but Christ still will come back afterwards.
>> Yeah, we will be. We will eventually be in the millennium and Christ will return after that millennium.
>> The end of it. Okay, we're moving towards it. Hence, society is moving. The gospel is advancing premillennialism. So, the pre is about when Christ comes back.
That's exactly before the millennialism. So, the confusing part is, and I'm sorry to cut you off, is if the pre was we are pre- the millennial.
>> Postmillennial and premillennial both agree that the millennial state is not yet.
>> That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. Some postmillennialists might argue that the millennium began in the first century and is slowly advancing, but often it it's it's when the nations are submitted to Christ that's when the millennium begins. And so, um, you can have differences of opinion on on actually when it all began. And because um they don't they're not committed to any particular length of time for the millennium. You know, if I thought it began in the first century in within the church, >> uh then there's no big deal that it's taken 2,000 years and we haven't yet accomplished uh what the church needs to accomplish. That's that's not a problem for postmillennialists.
So if I'm correct and I I cut you off as you were explaining premillennialism on amillennialism and postmillennialism, we would see cultural changes happened either before the millennium itself and the reign of Christ or the return of Christ. Premillennialism, Christ is going to come back. So if there are any signs, whatever they may be, and we could talk about that, it wouldn't be of the millennium or the millennial reign. It would be of Christ coming back before any kind of millennial reign. Is that fair?
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's correct. So, so any of any view could be looking for signs of the return of Christ? But the question is, is he returning after his reign or before his reign? And so, premillennialism says he's he's returning before he reigns on earth. Now, um there are a number of biblical arguments for why that would be the case. Not the least of which is Revelation 20 seems as you read it straight straightforwardly. John just links these visions together with uh a Greek phrase that's translated and I saw and I saw this and I saw that and I saw this and I saw that >> and um and they clearly the and I saw sequence in Revelation 19 is clearly chronological. Revelation 20 just links to 19 with the same kayedon. And then those events in Revelation 20 are clearly chronological. And so you have to argue that somehow John has re gone back in time when he gets into Revelation 20. It doesn't naturally read that way. Some will argue, for instance, Greg Beiel argues an angel coming down from heaven is a signal that we've made a break in the chronology and things like that. I I think it's it's a position that can't be ma sustained, but that's his argument.
>> Um um so Revelation 20 just normally reads straightforwardly reads as chronologically following >> Revelation 19, but there are other uh strong indications as well. So in Revelation at the beginning before the millennium before Satan is bound and cast into the abyss, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.
>> Satan is thrown into the lake of fire after the millennium. And it says um where the beast and the false prophet are in in Revelation 20. So that suggests a chronology and um in what has to be argued is well it just means they were just thrown in a couple minutes before or something something like that not a thousand years before but it doesn't read that way.
>> Um the to me one of the strongest arguments well you know we're talking about he will not deceive the nations any longer. Well, everything from chapter 12 to chapter 20 is about Satan deceiving the nations so as to worship the beast.
>> And so when it says he will not deceive the nations any longer, it suggests I mean like the stuff he was doing before Revelation 20. Um, but to me the strongest argument that that Revelation 20 is intended to follow the return of Christ is that the primary subtext of the book of Revelation is the book of Daniel.
>> And in Daniel's esquetology, which is uh built up over several chapters, um, in chapter 7, there are four beasts that come out of the sea. The last being uh this indescribable monster uh with with t horns and and an an antichrist like figure comes out of this. John develops that beast uh in revelation 13. It's very clearly built on the beasts of revel I mean of Daniel 7. that beast is uh burned with fire when the son of man approaches the ancient of days and uh and receives the kingdom. Um, the other beasts, interestingly, we're told they weren't killed at that time. They were given an extension of life. So that there are some nations or some even opponents of the people of God who continue into the reign of Christ. And and yet this final persecuting uh antichrist like figure and his uh political machine that fourth beast is destroyed is is burned with fire. Um, and then the saints uh receive the kingdom with the son of man. Now that's chronological in in um in Daniel in Daniel 12 it says Daniel 12:1 then some of those who sleep in the dust will awake >> these to eternal life other the others to eternal contempt. Um John posits a dual resurrection. a resurrection of the saints prior to the reign of Christ >> and a resurrection of others that get thrown into the lake of fire after the return of Christ. And so, um, in in the book of Revelation, John is just following the chron chronological sequence of of Daniel's esquetology. And so, when he gets to Revelation 19 and 20, uh, the son of man returns, uh, he defeats the beast. beast is thrown into the fire. He's burned with fire. There's a resurrection. Uh, they reign with Christ for a thousand years after which there's a second resurrection and the eternal state. And so um I don't see any reason to to see that John has somehow changed around that general flow from from Daniel. So, um, yeah, to me that's that's one of the strongest reasons that that Revelation 20 follows Revelation 19.
>> That's great. Well, one of my questions is going to be, which view do you hold and why? You've tipped your hat pretty strongly towards premillennial, which is totally fine, but let's sum this back up for people. So, premillennial is Jesus is coming back and then there will be the millennial reign. Might be a thousand years or that might be a standin for a lengthy period of time. what is that millennial reign going to be like and how does it contrast with an amillennial or postmillennial view?
>> Yeah. Um so there are two two ways of understanding a the premillennial reign of Christ. One has been called classical premillennialism. It's the premillennialism that the early church uh that we can discern from the church fathers. Uh, and it's it's it's uh it doesn't involve God fulfilling his promises to the nation of Israel literally or um to to the nation of Israel as his covenant people. um it's uh those promises are fulfilled in the church and the um so it's sort of a um a more churchified version of the kingdom promises in the Old Testament. Another kind of premillennialism generally referred to as dispensational premillennialism um although it doesn't have to be you don't have to be a dispensationalist to to hold this view. Um, it says God made promises to Israel in the Old Testament in which he would gather them back into their land, uh, reconcile them to himself, um, uh, defeat their enemies, make them the imperial nation. The Messiah would come to be their shepherd. He would rule over the nations from Jerusalem. uh and at that time uh God would uh reconcile humanity and nature that you know you get Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65 that the child playing on the addter's den and the lion lying down with the lamb >> uh and the nations would be reconciled with one another. They would beat their u their swords into plowshares and they won't learn war any longer. and and um you know the um the glory of God would extend over all the earth. Both types of premillennialism see that sort of uh redemption of social and ecological uh as well as spiritual um u um problems, things that had been lost in the fall of Adam. those have those are being um renewed during the millennium. Um, the dispensational sort says and it's literally an imperial reign of Christ from Jerusalem uh with Israel as his uh as his nation uh ruling over the nations of the earth. all millennialism and postmillennialism to the extent that they uh see an actual earthly new heavens and a new earth, a physical culmination of the eternal state, they would say all that stuff is in the eternal state. It's not in the millennium.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Um and uh and so um yeah, the millennium in both postmillennialism and premillennialism, the millennium is sort of a stepping stone to the eternal state. In pre in sorry, I've got too many words that I'm trying to bounce around here. Great. In all millennialism, uh it is it's almost absolutely distinct from from the eternal state. All millennialism is just the millennium is where you go while you await the eternal state or some something along those lines. A place a time of bliss. You're in heaven. You're in the presence of Christ. But but um it's not uh it has no earthly or how should I say um redemptive value on on earth physically or socially or any in any other way.
So premillennialism, Satan is bound in what sense?
>> Yeah. Uh in an absolute sense.
>> And so they would look at the statement there. He's he is seized. He's bound with chains. He's thrown into the abyss. The cover is locked on top of him uh for a thousand years. I that that doesn't sound like he's limited in his scope of composition or something like that. It sounds like he's entirely out of commission.
>> Yeah. And and I would argue sorry to no jump on there jump on you Sean. I would argue the point of a premillennial reign of Christ that it Christ reigning on earth after his return is to it is partly performs a theodyssey. It justifies God's condemnation of humanity because even without Satan somehow undermining humanity, sin is in humanity's heart. And at the end, when Satan is released, people can live in perfect conditions under the literal reign of Christ and yet turn against him at the first chance they get when when Satan is released. So it's a way of saying your sin is not caused by your environment. Your sin is not >> um you know something external to you. It's something internal to you and God is justified in condemning you.
So when Christ is reigning, >> Satan is bound during this millennium state. One of the things our colleague Clint Arnold has talked about is that sin comes from the world that's transformed in the millennium. comes from the devil. He's bound. But third, it comes from the flesh.
>> But even in the millennial state, our flesh has not been totally transformed. So there can be >> and might be some sin and brokenness in that state.
>> Yeah. It's only those who have uh uh risen to glorification um at the beginning of the millennium who have no sin. Right? All other human beings in the millennium in this premillennial view still have sin, still have the flesh and um yeah, and so they can be swayed to to rebel against the reign of Christ. And you get, you know, you get a picture of that, right? Um in Psalm two, um he rules over the nations with a rod of iron. They they you know, let let's break his feeders. um uh you know uh let's let's rebel, let's take counsel together and rebel against the Lord and against his Christ. Um, therefore you better do obesence to the son or lest he destroy you in his anger etc. It's it's not Jesus reigning over, you know, it's not an amalennial view, right? It's not Jesus reigning in heaven over his purified perfected saints. It's Jesus reigning over recalcitrant nations. Nations who don't want him to be reigning over him over them but uh who are forced to. He's going to rule them with a rod of iron and eventually will try to rebel against that. So, it's not a sinless state.
Correct. That is not the point. That's right.
>> And if I heard you correctly, there will be some people who had died before, >> resurrected and glorified in the millennial state >> and some people who had not been resurrected and glorified. It'll be a mixture of both.
>> That would be the premillennial understanding. Yeah, that's correct.
>> Okay. So often all millennialists and postmillennialists will scoff at a premillennial understanding because they're like, "What a weird situation you got."
It is weird. Yeah. But um you know, that's not the only weird thing that we ever come across in scripture. But >> um Yeah.
>> But uh we would have to say, yeah, it says they're going to be resurrected and um and uh and yet there will also be people who are not resurrected who rebel against Christ. So, yeah,
>> that is fascinating. You said it's not the only weird thing in the Bible. It's certainly not the only weird thing in Revelation.
>> No, that's true.
>> Everybody's going to have to own some weirdness. It just depends on what level of weirdness and how it plays out.
So, let let's circle back to Israel just for a minute. So am a millennialism and postmillennialism as a whole don't have a future role for the nation of Israel before any kind of eternal state when we're glorified new heavens and new earth maybe there premillennialism would say that there's a future role for the nation of Israel in the millennial state >> is that right
>> yes and in particular dispensational premillennialism. So in that flavor of dispensation, I mean of premillennialism, it says, look, God made promises, kingdom promises to Israel, not not promises fulfilled in David and Solomon, but esqueatological kingdom promises of the sort that I laid out. Mhm. God will not be true to his word if he doesn't fulfill those promises. Now, Revelation 20 doesn't mention Israel, doesn't mention even like what life on earth is like during that time. In fact, it goes over it pretty pretty quickly. But we have to ask ourselves, when will God fulfill those kingdom promises? Now um premillennialists would say during the millennium um >> the um postmillennialists and all millennialists would say well God will he's not going to fulfill those promises to Israel um because first of all Israel lost the the um the privilege of having those promises fulfilled. He will fulfill those promises to his redeemed people. Now, sometimes this gets into ecclesiology as well. How what how is the church related to Israel? But he'll fulfill those promises. But he's not going to, you know, those promises in the Old Testament to Israel. Those are very specific, very um localized. No, he's gonna do, you know, he promised them a Volkswagen, but he's gonna give them a MercedesBenz. Um, he's they're going to have the whole earth, and it's not Israel, it's all the nations who have bowed bowed the knee to him. And so, they see them fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth. Uh, and they they're not fulfilled literally because, um, goodness gracious, it's he's giving them something even better, >> even greater.
>> Yeah.
>> and and so um I would just say well I don't see anything suggesting that in the Old Testament and there's nothing in my opinion that demands that in in the New Testament either.
So our view of the millennium we've mentioned two doctrines that this strongly influences our view of Israel and God's continuing promises to Israel. Uh you mentioned uh one about oh our view of like government and engagement with culture, how we think about things becoming more Christian or not necessarily. So >> are there any other doctrines that are at play with how we view the millennium or are the those the two main ones that really kind of flow from how we think about that time period?
>> Yeah, I I would say those are the main ones. One of the arguments against premillennialism uh is that it doesn't seem to have a it seems to be regressive um in the opinion of a millennialist or a postmillennialist that is God has given us these spiritual um gifts uh not spiritual gifts like the gifts of tongues, but he's given us all these spiritual benefits. Why would we want to have all these earthly benefits instead, all these physical benefits? It moves us backwards. It's now I'm kind of simplifying things, but of course it it's regressive. It moves us backwards.
>> Um why not just come have the great white throne and have the eternal state? what what purpose what possible purpose could could the premillennium fulfill in the sense of premillennialism? And and so I argued that it might have a have a theoty purpose. It might justify God in condemnation. Uh nobody can stand before God and said and say it was because the devil made me do it. It's because you know my environment made me do it. No, it's it you lived in the middle of an a perfect environment and you still sinned against God. Um, so I I say okay, it could have a theological purpose.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, it's I I would say can God really go back on his promises to Israel? What does that say about the truthfulness uh of God? Uh it calls I think it calls God's character into question to say that he made promises that he's not going to fulfill. Um, now again people can argue well he will fulfill them in a very different way than the promise or something like that. Well, it's kind of like >> all right, is fulfilling a promise in a very different way really fulfilling a promise? I'm not exactly sure. But so it call it can call the character of God into question, which is by the way what Paul that's Paul's argument in Romans 9 through11.
>> Um God's character is called into question. Um if he doesn't fulfill his promises to Israel and Paul argues through that, well maybe he's doing this, maybe he's doing that. Ultimately says, uh no, God's going to fulfill his promises to Israel.
So it's God's character in terms of fulfilling promises to Israel. And you mean like Abraham 12, 15, 17, 18 in terms of the >> Yeah. And and and Isaiah and the prophets promising >> the redemption of Israel, >> their their reconciliation to God, their the Messiah coming and reigning from Jerusalem over the nations. Um, the the um refreshing of the land, all all that kind of thing. Um, yeah, it those are those are pro na promises to national Israel. They're not just like sort of spiritual promises to spiritual people who love God or something like that. Um, in fact, in particular, you know, uh, uh, God says, um, this is how the nations will know that I'm Yahweh when I fulfill these promises to to this nation that I had formerly cast off, but but I'm I'm going to reconcile her back to myself again. So, it to me it calls into character the the question of God. um has something to do with with redemption. Is redemption merely spiritual?
So in all millennialism, especially in the older sort of all millennialism, redemption was entirely spiritual. It was all about souls being saved. But in the fall, not only was man's relationship to God destroyed or injured or broken, but man's relationship to nature was broken as well, where they didn't have to uh work for their food. Now they have to work for their food.
>> And man's relationship with one another was broken as well. Where the man and the wife were naked and unashamed, now they're ashamed to be naked before one another. So we have social relationships, ecological relationships, spiritual relationships, all broken in the fall. Is redemption merely the fixing of that spiritual relationship or is it also social and more broadly geopolitical relationships and ecological relationships and um and premillennialism at least argues it's all three of those things which see is more satisfying. Now the others will say, "Yeah, they're also that's also the new heavens and the new earth or something along those lines."
So >> that makes sense. You know, I teach the class here in our apologies program on why God allows evil. We talk about theodysy. I had never made the connection that you made about how the millennium, the millennial reign, could be a kind of theodysy that people who are reigned by the Messiah, Satan is bound, still will rebel against him, whether it's in the millennial reign or when Satan comes back is to show in a sense the depravity of mankind.
>> Uh I've never quite thought about like that. That's a very interesting connection. Uh two last. This one is probably speculative, but do you have any thoughts on why if the millennium is such a consequential doctrine, it kind of just appears so small in Revelation and there's little pockets of hints that are not inconsequential, but it feels like, >> and I know this is just a feeling and a sense of something that so much pivots biblically and theologically, >> we get more on it not dropped in the most confusing book in the Bible, which is Revelation. second maybe only to Daniel.
>> Yeah. No, I would say uh I would say first uh first even to Daniel, but um no uh so yeah, John is he's not working out a theology or or you know um he is um he is encouraging Christians who are under either persecution or at least severe opposition from their uh pagan environment and
Also both pagans and Jews. Um, and so it's offering hope to those people that they will be vindicated, that Jesus, that they've, that the Jesus that they have confessed is, uh, cosmic Lord, is the, uh, nation-dominating Messiah who will return and vindicate them. So it's not, it's not trying to like flesh out everything to, to say about eschatology. It's trying to, it's giving a, a hope to those people.
Now, um, uh, I, I agree that that the ultimate hope is the new heavens and the new earth where, where sin, uh, is no longer present, where, um, we live and reign with Christ forever. Um, uh, you know, where, um, the, the, the tabernacle of God is among men. We are in the presence of God. That's our ultimate, our ultimate hope. And so John is not so concerned about sort of this intermediate step, uh, of the kingdom prior to that.
>> So, um, so yeah, that's, that's all I would say. But what we can't do is just say because it's not there, let's just throw the Old Testament out altogether.
>> Yeah.
>> I, I agree with that. So, it seems like the take-home encouragement is a millennial, postmillennial, premillennial. There's a great white throne judgment. There's a lake of fire. Yes, there's the millennial reign. We differ over when and how it characterizes itself. But Jesus is coming back. And part of the heart of Revelation is to trust God through suffering and persecution. Is that really the takeaway, even if people differ over these particulars, which we've talked about, do matter?
>> Yes. Yeah. I would say that's, that's the main takeaway from Revelation. Um, and if you can't, uh, you know, get lost in the weeds, um, on these different views and it's not that doesn't seem that significant to you, then hang on to that. That is the blessed hope of, of the church is the return of Christ. Um, however, I would also say you do need to come to a conclusion about the mission of the church. Is it
>> to take over the world literally
>> or not? Is it, is it to evangelize and await the return of Christ to set things right, or is it to create the millennium itself? And that's a major distinction. It changes how you engage, uh, social questions in, in, in this world, uh, and how much hope you place in, you know, if we elect the next president,
>> is are we taking a step closer to the millennium or not, you know,
>> um, or do you say,
>> whoever that president is, not going to fix everything, Jesus is going to fix everything.
>> That's a great distinction. So for somebody who says, I do want to land the plane on this one, would you recommend a book that either presents the different views fairly? I think there's probably a four or five or maybe it's three views on the the millennium, or one that lays out the case for premillennialism, probably either beginning or an intermediate level for somebody who's like, I'm ready to take those next steps and think about it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I, I always recommend reading three views, four views books. Zondervan has great counterpoints series.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, the difficulty with those,
>> is some, uh, proponents are better at arguing their view than others. You know, I'm not always impressed with
>> that's fair.
>> each of the proponents.
>> Um, the, um, if you wanted to read a book, um, just arguing for the millennium, there's a book by, oh, I can't remember his first name, Michael Vlach, V L A C, on premillennialism where he kind of, you know, spends a book length arguing, uh, um, engaging different views but arguing for premillennialism. But yeah, I, it's, it's always worthwhile to, to read a scholar, um, advocating for their view. Look up the scriptures. Um, ask yourself, always ask yourself, um, are they, are they engaging all the evidence?
>> Is this the best reading of that evidence?
>> You know, but, uh, um, you have to do some thinking. I mean, you know, read those books, but don't just go, I really liked that,
>> of course,
>> position. You know, you, you've got to actually engage the arguments.
>> Or they could enroll in Talbot School of Theology, take your Revelation and Daniel class, and then you would assign it and they, which I took and was immensely helpful. Uh, the book is called Premillennialism, Why There Must Be Future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus by Michael Vlach, V L A C. He's got another book on dispensationalism and it's also been translated into Italian, interestingly enough.
Well, thank you for the time. Thanks for taking the, just breaking this down the way you did. Very clear and very compelling. And, uh, this was fun. Folks, if you're listening, you're like, "Wow, this theological deep dive is helpful." Do two things. Number one, let me know what other theological issues on this channel would be helpful to bring in some experts from Talbot to kind of break down. And second, think about joining us at Talbot School of Theology. We are now the third largest non-denominational seminary. I don't know if it's in the world. I think maybe in the US. I should probably get my stats right, but we're growing and we're increasing our faculty, increasing our reach. It's a great time to be here. We'd love to equip you theologically. So, join us and thanks again.
Yep. Thank you.