Transcription
So Charlotte, I'm Dr. Diamond. Nice to meet you. And, um, yeah, just wondering how you're feeling right now.
I'm good, thank you. I'm, thank you for meeting with me. I think it's going to be very interesting to talk.
So, great. Okay, well, usually, I think of, you know, a session like this, it's just really trying to get to know you, where you are now. Okay? Um, and how you're experiencing yourself and other people. So I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about yourself. Just describe yourself to me.
I, I live in LA. I go to school. I'm in graduate school now for social work. I have borderline personality disorder. I feel like that's, that's understood. Um, I...
Sure, Charlotte. I need you to speak up a little bit.
Okay, sorry. I'm sorry.
Okay, that's okay. Um, I think that pretty much sums it up, actually.
So, did you... I can go over it again, though. But no, I heard you're in graduate school and you have a personality disorder, right? That's what you said, right?
Yeah.
Okay. Um, okay, those are important things. But if I was going to try to get a fuller sense of you as a person, like different facets of you, how would you, what would you say about yourself?
Yeah, that's interesting. I'd be, I'd be interested to hear how other people go about that. I, um, I'm not a very interesting person right now in terms of relationships. I have very few going on. Definitely no inter-, definitely no romantic relationships. Um, my mother and I don't talk. My father passed away. I've done better with anger, but I think a lot of that is because I'm not in any romantic relationships, and I haven't been since, like, February, March of 2021. So I'm, I would say that I'm able to maintain my emotional equilibrium because I'm not in any relationship. So other than that, I am, I don't know. I don't know. I think it would have to be a little bit more specific.
I'm sorry.
Well, anything else that you could tell me about yourself that would just give me, you know, maybe a more multifaceted sense? Like, I noticed that you said that you have a personality disorder as though that kind of describes something about you. It's like a shorthand, but that's kind of different for different people, you know what I mean?
I do. So everyone has a, if they have a personality disorder, it manifests itself somewhat differently for everyone. I mean, not just because there's different types of personalities, whereas, but because people are unique and they have their own experience of things. So you said that right now you're not in relationships and anger, you know, is pretty much under control. Um, and you think maybe that's because you're not in relationships. That's something interesting I'd like to hear more about. But, but think about, is there anything else you could tell me about yourself that would give me a sense of you as a unique person, separate from your personality disorder?
Right. So I went with the personality disorder kind of so we could jumpstart and get into that. I think. And I, I apologize if that was a little too direct. I definitely don't introduce myself to other people, "Hi, I'm Charlotte. I have a personality disorder." But since that's why we're talking, I thought it would be best just to go in that direction. About something about me that's unique. Really, I'm, I'm sorry. I would need to know how other people answer that. I don't, I don't know what you mean. I feel like I feel like you're going to say that that means I have, I, I don't...
Well, no. Let me ask it a different way. Could you give me five adjectives to describe yourself? Just words.
Okay. That's a little easier. Yeah. Kind, empathetic, um, gosh, I don't... We had to do this icebreaker and, um, in one of my classes and I, I had to come up with three. And I think anxious was one of them, which is fair. Kind, sympathetic, and what was the third one?
Anxious.
Anxious, right. And awkward. I said that one as well.
And then, that's enough.
Okay. Yeah.
Tell me about anxious. How does that work in your life? Is that something that you feel every day? Is it something that, you know, kind of plagues you? Or is it something that ebbs and flows?
No, I would say my anxiety is pretty severe. For it, I definitely would say anxiety is pretty high up for me on the... I just, I should replace all the other adjectives with anxious and all of those and then we can go to kind.
[Laughter]
Of it. Sounds like anxious is at the top of the list right now. And maybe because this is kind of an anxiety-provoking situation when you're talking to someone you've never met, you know, there's lots of people around. Yeah. People around. We're being filmed and so on. So I can understand that. Thank you.
When did you start grad school?
It just started, actually. So it's the accelerated program. So it started in June and then it'll be over in May. It's a one-year program.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm struck by the first two things you told me were, "I'm in grad school," and "I have a personality disorder." And I'm thinking that, you know, and you're in grad school and social work, which means you want to be in the field in some way, right? You want to be on the other side of the couch, so to speak, of the other s-, in the other chair, right? And, and so that's, you know, that's probably a goal. And yet, coming to that with a personality disorder...
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interpret you.
No, go ahead. I'm sorry.
But I, I don't want to be a therapist. That's what I'm doing with my internship, but I'd rather do more research, policy, advocacy, grant writing, anything that's not quite so micro. Because I have a personality disorder and I don't want my inability to maintain boundaries to compromise someone else's situation or my anger issues. What if something happens and then that could be, that could be bad for the other person, that could be bad for me, that could be bad for the career. And then everything would just be horrible for everybody. So I just wanted to clarify, there's no intention whatsoever of going into a micro-level, um, occupation.
But you're still going to be dealing with people. Yeah. And so I'm struck by two things about that. One, that there's obviously a part of you that identifies with being kind, sympathetic, helpful, and you believe you have that capacity. And you probably wouldn't be in graduate school if you didn't. So that's important. But that it gets kind of, uh, undermined by worrying about coming to this with having had a history of a personality disorder, as though somehow a personality disorder isn't treatable and people don't get better. You know what I mean?
I do. What I do because I really believe people do get better. And so, you know, it's a long struggle. I know that. It's not easy. Um, clearly you're on the road to recovery because you are doing this. You are in grad school. You are able to tolerate, you know, the anxiety of this kind of situation, even. Um, so I'm sure there are a lot of times when you feel like you're losing it. You know, grad school precipitates anxiety in people who don't have a personality disorder.
So, yeah. No, definitely. Initially, when I went back to school to do social work, I wanted to do a micro-level. I, when I found out that there's these other realms, I definitely was thinking, well, this is going to be better for me. I don't want to risk having an explosion or just all of the things that could potentially go wrong. And that's when I decided to transition more into just more of a macro direction. And in my internship, though, I do micro work right now. So, so. And with my last internship, I was working with children. So and I was still doing one-on-one counseling.
I guess I'm struck by, you know, the fact that you are doing more what you call micro work, which I assume means individual, when I'm, individual counseling or, um, and what's the setting exactly?
It's, uh, at the, where I'm doing my internship. Yeah. It's an interim housing facility. So it's a shelter. You know, you do the adult full assessment, the, you know, the biopsychosocial. If I need to diagnose someone, I diagnose. And then my supervisor, because she's an LCSW, signs off on it. Right. So it's really just sitting with the person and listening to what's going on with them right now and how they're feeling and so on. Right.
Um, and so you're doing that now, but you still have reservations about possibly taking this road? But I guess I'm struck by, uh, they're not totally trusting yourself and your recovery. You know, you keep mentioning, "What would happen if there was an explosion?" So tell me about that. Tell me about what, what does an explosion look like for you? What's happened in the past when you've had an explosion?
I haven't had anything happen at the internship or the prior internship. But I have had things happen in interpersonal relationships where there were explosions. And I wouldn't say that I'm recovered, but I don't know if there's something that one of my professors said about mental illness and recovery. And this is going to have a cuss word, so I'm sorry. But when something's not kicking your ass as much as it used to. And I think that that's fair. However, I'm not dating. So there's nothing that will third rail me like a boyfriend.
Yeah. Recovery is a process, as we know. And, you know, there, there may be pockets of vulnerability, but you get to know that about yourself and you can, you know, become more resilient. It sounds like that's what's going on now.
Um, I hope so. I hope so.
So when you talk about this has happened in relationships, and one of the ways you've dealt with that is just to not have any intimate relationships right now. Could you describe someone you've had a relationship with in the past and where the explosion, relationship was like?
Yeah. I, I can be toxic. They can, um, I'll just, it can be toxic. I can say mean things, and I don't like that about myself. With the last one, he was my best friend. I'm not going to say he moved to LA to be closer to me, but he has a place in New York and then he had a place in LA. And during COVID, he transitioned over to LA. And it's because he was my best friend, so we could hang out more. And then, um, and then we can't even say that we started dating, but I, this is embarrassing, but when you, we started having sex. And so then, you know, the chemicals start going off. And then I wanted to be in a relationship. And he'd never had a girlfriend ever. And since we were so close, like, in my mind, it seemed like this would be a great relationship because he's got my best friend, we've known each other forever. And he really seemed to want to be in a relationship with me too. But as soon as that happened, he didn't seem to want to be in a relationship anymore. And then I pushed and pushed and pushed for him to want to be in a relationship with me. And then when he pushed back, I was cruel. I was mean. And I said mean things. And I would take things that I knew were vulnerable, like vulnerabilities for him, and I would hurl those at him. And I had said before all this, because I knew how it was going to play out, and I had said, "There's going to be a time where I'm going to try to push you away. Please don't let me." And so when it finally got to that point where he had said, "I'm at that point," I always want to say he said that verbatim. I, um, I sent him an email after that. And I, it wasn't a mean email, it was a closure email. And then I said, "It's okay because now I can concentrate on my school. I'm not going to fixate anymore." Because it was, there was closure in that. And I'm sure that there was a, if we want to psychoanalyze it, I had proven, either subconsciously or consciously, that what I thought was going to play out did play out. And not only did it play out, which is some random guy, it played out with someone who was, I was very, very close to and had been a very, very close friend. And then I'd managed to even push him away. So I remember consciously thinking when that ended, "That's it. I'm never going to date again." I'm, I'm, I'm not. I, um, you know how some people, there, they have photosensitivities and then they'll have seizures? Maybe that's how it is with relationships with me. Because I'm, I'm, I would like to think that I'm stable when I'm not in a relationship. So, but I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to, I'm not going to say I don't want to throw myself under the bus, but I just, I don't know. I don't know.
I saw a video of you on on YouTube, the one where you're at a hotel. Do you know what I'm talking about? And you're talking about narcissism?
Probably. Yeah. It was very interesting. It was very...
Personality assessment conference. Yeah. Yeah. It was very interesting. I was, I listened to the whole thing. It was very interesting.
What did you find interesting? I want to come back to the relationship, but just wondering, since you brought it up, what made you think of it just then?
Because there was a part where somebody can't provide a clear response. Then do you know what I'm talking about? And I can't remember what category it would be in. But if they were incapable of providing a clear, concise response, then they had poor emotional or something. Do you know what I'm talking about?
That doesn't quite ring a bell, but tell me more.
I mean, that was it. I mean, there was, there was a, there was a patient with borderline personality disorder and another one with narcissistic personality disorder. And you would ask a question, and then if they could provide this cohesive, you know, coherent sentence about something that had happened to them in their childhood or with a parent, then you would, you had categorized them with a, I don't want to say emotional intelligence, but something along those lines. And then there was someone who was incapable of, I don't want to say incapable, maybe they had really about it, I don't know. But the sentence structure was broken, and it was, it was weak, and then they were categorized a certain way as well.
Right. I, I know what you're talking about. You're talking about the adult attachment interview, I think. And different ways of responding in an adult attachment interview, which asks people to talk about their childhood attachment experiences. And, right. And it's in the structure of the discourse, you learn a lot about, you know, those early relationships.
So, so what do you think made you think about it right this minute?
Because I'm struggling to provide you with a coherence, a sentence structure, first of all. And then also, I'm, I'm struggling with providing you with examples. And I, I don't know if it's because I'm afraid that you're going to say that I have a low emotional intelligence or however it was that they were categorized. Or if I am, um, I'm just nervous because we haven't really, I mean, I don't really know you.
Sure. Okay. Yeah. And then also, as I said earlier, it would make sense to be a little anxious in this situation.
More anxious? You should let me know and we can talk about that. But it's my adjective. But also, you know, I think what I'm so struck by is that how you heard that lecture and how you're applying it to yourself and kind of wondering if I'm going to judge you and find you, you use the category, "low emotional intelligence." That's not in that interview, I can tell you that. So that comes from you. Okay. Right. Somehow finding yourself wanting or defective. Um, and being so worried that, you know, how you express yourself here. Um, because that part is in the interview. It's not just what people say, it's how they're able to say it, and how they say it, how coherent it is. So you're kind of monitoring yourself constantly. Kind of tormenting. I'm saying, but I have a feeling that's something you do to yourself. You know, that you do a lot of that kind of monitoring.
And when I'm not, when I'm not comfortable, I'm sorry, but we don't, I mean, we've only just met. Sure. Of course. I, when I talk to Rebbie, there's no monitoring. Which is, which is how this is, how those conversations go. There's no monitoring at all. I just talk.
Nor. [Music] But it's okay. I can try to unmonitor myself. Yeah. No, I'm just making an observation about, you know, how difficult it must be. But I'm, I want to get back to that lecture. And were there parts of that that you felt applied to you? That you did reflect on things about yourself?
Two of your colleagues I've met before. So Jill Delaney, and she treated me for a month. I don't know if you knew this.
I know her. Yeah. I didn't know she treated you. But yeah.
Just for a month, though. And then I met Dr. Kernberg at White Plains Hospital. At the, they took me to put me in Rome. And then I met with him. But those two experiences with both of those clinicians were, were very uncomfortable for me. So I mean, a minute before right here, when meeting with you, I, I'm very, I was like, "Is this going to be like it was with them?" So I, I do want you to know that that's in the back of my head.
Sure. I can understand it. Right. So you came to the interview with some transference already there because I work with that group. And, you know, that... Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you'd already had two difficult experiences with my colleagues. Yeah. So that's understandable.
What was uncomfortable about those meetings? I mean, maybe different ones for... Can you say? Let's start with Dr. Kernberg.
Yes. He, I wasn't aware that there were going to be other people in there. And maybe they told me and I didn't understand that they were going to be that many other people in there. So when I walked in and there was a full room with a whole bunch of people writing down, and then I was immediately on. I was very surprised. So then I sat down and he, he had brought up sex stuff pretty early on. And I don't remember what it was, but I know that, and this is, I'm ashamed of this, I stormed out at one point. And I don't know if it's because I was embarrassed that there were all those people in there, or that I didn't know him well enough, I felt for him to be asking me to talk to my therapist about it. Since, and she thought that maybe I felt like I wasn't in control, and that was my way of taking back control by leaving. And I had said, "I felt like a frog on an operating table." And I hadn't, because I hadn't been aware of what I was walking into. And they probably told me and I didn't, I just didn't grasp the number of people that were going to be in there. And I didn't know who Dr. Kernberg, did I say his name right? I'm sorry if I didn't. I didn't know who he was at that point. So that's why there were probably so many people in there too, because they were learning from him, right? I would think.
And then with Jill, I, I want to say this first. I really like her a lot as a person, and I think she's very kind and warm and compassionate. But when she was treating me, I didn't get that from her. And I didn't really find that out about her until later. Unintentionally, I'm sure. It was just a very intimidating situation. I would go in there, and it was twice a week, and it was so, um, threatening to me. And I, I don't know if that's what TFP is. That how you say it? TFP. Yeah. I don't know if that's how TFP is. But I, I do know that she had asked me this question, and I thought it was so silly at the time. But now I know that there are people who have never had, um, I, I think she thought maybe, I mean, I probably did have an alcohol and drug problem. I don't know. She had said, "Have you ever had sober sex?" And I thought that was so, I thought that was so, um, silly, honestly. That's, I didn't, I was surprised that that was even a question. I was surprised that that's a possibility for some people. But then the last guy that I dated, he had apparently never had sober sex except for once. So I was like, "Oh, wow. This actually is a thing." And then she had, um, I know that when I get uncomfortable, my voice gets high. It's probably high right now. And she had called me out on that. But the way she called me out on it, it was a little, for me, it, it made me feel like my mom was, um, hurting me.
I'm sorry, did you say hurting you? Like being mean? Like just...
I know that's, I know that's juvenile to say it like that, but just being cruel and saying something, saying intentionally cruel to to hurt me.
Did you tell her?
No, of course not. No. I, I probably should have, in retrospect. I should have. I did not. I would like to think that I have the emotional fortitude now to be able to say that kind of thing. I don't know if I do.
But right. But we're having a more open conversation now. So maybe. Yeah. I don't know.
Is there anything you'd like to say to me?
No, I don't think so. I think so. Well, I mean, I don't think so. We'll find out.
All right. What about your current therapist?
She's wonderful. And, and you feel you can definitely be frank with her and tell her about your feelings about things that come up, or she just says something you don't like?
I think so. I hope so. I've had her for two and a half years now. So.
Great. Um, when the whole thing happened with the last boyfriend, slash not boyfriend, she was able to tell me what happened about how I was afraid to be, it didn't occur to me, about I was afraid to be abandoned, and then I pushed him away when I felt like I was being abandoned. And then we had different values. And value systems are better when they're aligned with partners. And she said that the research has indicated that people can have different interests, but if their values aren't aligned, then the relationship is a little bit more to...
So it sounds like you're learning a lot in this therapy and, and it's really helping understand yourself and your relationships. And maybe this thing about not dating right now and taking is kind of taking a hiatus. So you feel stronger and you understand more why certain things happen in relationships, like what happened in this relationship, which was after all, a really good friendship. That's a hard thing to lose.
Do you have any contact with that person?
No.
So fear of abandonment. I hear that. That's a major, major theme. And, you know, I keep coming back to those comments about explosion, um, because I think there's also fear of the anger and the capacity to hurt other people. Not just to be hurt, but for you to hurt other people. Therefore, you stay, you know, keep things somewhat, you know, not superficial, but not a deeply intimate situation for fear that something's going to come up in you that's going to be harmful to the other person. You won't be able to keep boundaries. You'll fall into something. Yeah.
Um, no, definitely. So definitely.
Do you have any sense of where that comes from? That sense that there's a toxic part of you?
My history. Sorry. Yeah. I know my history. Just, I mean, I can become so cruel. I'll take something that someone is very insecure about. And then at some point, something will happen, and probably them leaving me, or the threat of them leaving me, or something. And then I'll hurl it at them. And then to them, it's something that is very raw. And, you know, this sort of vulnerability. And then I've poured acid on it. Hmm. As those are the things that I think about a lot because I really, I really don't like that about myself. And I, I really, first of all, with the relationships, I'm not saying this for pity. I'm really not. Why would anybody want to be with me? And I don't, I mean, even if I did become the most stable person in the world, there's so many, even these, like, their girlfriend would have, you know, all of her information on the internet. And then I have scars all over my arms. I have a tattoo here that I hate. My foot is permanently messed up. And then I, I don't have a family. I don't, why would anybody want to be with me? But even if there was somebody who did want to be with me, what if I pushed them away and did something awful again? And then I would hurt them. So it's almost like I'm, it's almost, I just don't, it's almost, it's it's like this last act of, you know, self-righteousness. Like, I'm not dating. I'm saving the world for myself. I'm kidding. I'm very much kidding. But, um, I think dating right now is not, is not. And plus, I, I have a problem where I prioritize the other person above my own anything that has to do with me. So I don't think that that's very good for this nasty and career I'm trying to build.
Yeah. And those are two very different things. I mean, there is a time when one wants to put one's energy into work and school and, you know, sort of figuring out who you want to be in the world, what you want to do with your life. And then there's the relationship issue. So there's two separate things. It makes sense. You know, you've just started grad school. You don't want your energy deflected. And particularly if you get very dysregulated around relationships.
Yes, exactly. But I'm hearing something also. It's, you know, in a way more profound, which is just that sense of being unlovable, being damaged, being, you know, "Why would anyone want to be with me?" And, you know, that's, that's a way of experiencing yourself in relation to other people that I think can be worked through. It can be understood where that comes from. It's only part of how you experience yourself, but it's very powerful. It's powerful enough to keep you out of relationships.
So do you mind if I ask you a few more questions about that?
You're so nice. I appreciate your kind. I vote because you're asking if you can ask questions. I really appreciate that. Thank you. I should probably try to do that when I'm speaking with clients. I would just ask questions. Yes, please. Thank you.
Well, I'm wondering, you mentioned, you know, that you have a problem with your foot and you have, you have scars all up and down your arms. And I assume that comes from having cut yourself earlier. Starting, how old were you when that started?
When my, I don't know when the actual cutting started. When my mom would be abusive, I would start digging my nails into my skin. And then if there was blood, then I felt vindicated. It was the only way that I could, I don't know, it was the only way that I could keep myself, I don't want to say safe, but it was the only way that I could keep myself from actually having an outburst or making it worse. And, and she was very, very volatile. I, I don't know when the actual cutting started. I don't know what year. I can almost guarantee that it had to do with the holidays. So it was probably a Christmas of some like, I know that I was out of the house. I know that I was probably in my early to mid-20s. And then after my father died, that's when it, that's when it really, I don't want to say took off, but is when it became a very habitual. And not around the holidays, just whenever I got upset.
In your early to mid-20s? Oh, well, no, that's probably when it started. And then when my dad died, which was 2010. And then in 2011, I was numb to everything. And then at the end of 2011, that was when I had a suicide attempt. And I started working with Jill, I want to say the month after that. But that's when the cutting really, really, really, really started after that. So between 2012 to 2014, it was pretty bad. Myself. It's, it's embarrassing. I always wear long sleeve clothes, though.
And what about your foot?
This is my fault. I had this, I was my boyfriend at the time was going to leave me. So I hit a window on the second floor. And it was a really bad accident. And like the leg right here, it was just flash hanging down. And there was a lot of the soft tissue was just hanging off my leg. Two of the arteries were cut. They were able to sew one up. I'm not sure how that works. And the nerves were all damaged on the, the bottom part. And so I've had seven surgeries now. They, um, toes, because the nerves were cut, they started curling in like this. I hope it doesn't continue like this for the rest of my life. But they just keep taking bits and pieces off of the ends of my toes because, I mean, it's, I don't know, they just do. And, um, but it's, every time they do, I can walk better. So it's okay.
But you, it doesn't keep you from walking?
No. I mean, it did for a while, but not anymore.
But you're fully functional?
Yes. Definitely. I don't consider myself disabled anymore, but I definitely was for a while.
So you put your foot to the glass?
It wasn't my best moment, I'll say. Yeah.
Um, but it sounds like you've come to grips with it. And, uh, they're doing everything they can to make sure you stay fully functional.
Yeah. Definitely.
So that's, that's really important. Um, you know, I think that level of self-destructiveness and self-hatred is something that is, it's very powerful, you know, it's, it's one of the most powerful things. And it's almost worse that you experience it and you don't lose touch with reality. Do you know what I'm saying? Some people, some people can't really sort of come to grips with the gravity of their self-destructiveness. Um, so they kind of dissociate from it. They don't, you're not doing that. I mean, you're really looking at it square in the face and saying, you know, "It was pretty horrible, and I did some pretty terrible things to myself." And that's something to be mourned and to come to grips with, right? And then to let go.
The leg part, the fact that it doesn't work the way that it used to, or that the self-destructive behavior... I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear the question. Which part should be more? And I apologize. That you did those things to yourself, that you were so punishing to yourself, that sometimes that's something to be mourned, just like if you lost a relationship, you'd mourn, or your father, right? You've experienced, you know, what feels like catastrophic loss. And this is, you know, a loss of something of, let's say, bodily integrity or whatever. And in my experience, you know, having worked with lots of people who've been very, very self-destructive, that there is a mourning process. And then, you know, hopefully, one, like all other mourning processes, that comes to an end. And so maybe you're still going through that of coming to grips with what you did to yourself, with the consequences for you, mostly more than anybody else has been. And then trying to find your way through that. And, uh, and to let it go. And that's a process again. That definitely makes sense. And, you know, it would make sense to not want to get too quickly into a relationship. Yeah, that you're, what you know, what you're going through and your own feelings about your body. I think that's an important place to start. And to feel good about yourself and your body, because obviously there's a lot of positive things there too, you know, although I think it's hard for you to see that.