Systematic Theology: Chapter 49 - Baptism

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So anyway, thanks for coming, and those of you watching on video, thanks for joining us again. We're going through Wayne Gudm's Systematic Theology, Second Edition, and the workbook that goes with it, which is really nice. Greg Allison, if you're watching, can you do a workbook for the church history book that we're going to add to it in the New Year?

Chapter 49, um, that's on page 1195 in the book and 213 in the workbook. And so, um, welcome again, and we're going to jump right on in. So again, uh, Saturday, we had a just a great discussion, um, about this really good. You know, it's, it's just interesting because we have people in our church that have Catholic backgrounds, so they've been baptized as infants as Catholics. We have people with Reformed Church backgrounds that have been baptized as infants. And then we have, uh, the majority, because we are a Baptist Church, have been baptized after faith, putting their faith and having a credible, um, experience of that faith, and, uh, and then been baptized after that. So Credo baptism, or believer's baptism. So we're going to talk about all those things tonight.

So if you look at number one, the very first thing talked about is, why do some Protestants prefer the word ordinance over sacrament? So we've talked, we've hammered this one home for a while now, especially as we've been talking about Catholicism and deeper dive. But what's the distinction between, uh, how most people think of a sacrament and how we think about an ordinance? Anybody want to give it a shot?

Okay, everybody's quiet. Ordinances are ordained by Christ. Okay, yeah. So an ordinance is ordained or a command of Christ. And a sacrament, well, if you look at it in a Catholic sense, what is a, what is a sacrament? It confers grace. Okay, yeah, yeah. So the act itself, the seven sacraments in the Catholic Church, of which the first is infant baptism. And they believe that if, when you baptize an infant, that, that baptism leads to regeneration. So just by being baptized, I mean, the baby has no idea what he's doing or she's doing, but just in doing the act of baptism, that baptism conveys, makes that baby regenerate, according to the Catholic Church, that's their teaching. So, so that's one of the reasons why we really want to steer clear of the word sacrament.

Now, there are Reformed churches, the Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church. Uh, I'm missing one of the biggies. Um, but they all do infant baptism, and they don't believe it's a sacrament in the same sense as the Catholics do. So they don't believe you're regenerated when you're baptized. But what do they teach? Now, there's, there's varieties, uh, in various Lutheran churches, Episcopal churches, Anglican churches, Methodist churches, etc. There's varying positions on that. But in general, they don't think, none of those churches believe that you're saved in baptism or regenerated like the Catholic Church teaches. However, they believe you become part of what in baptism, in infant baptism? What do they call it? Yeah, the covenant community. Okay. So, and they, uh, associate that with what from the Old Testament? They make a parallel from what? Pra, yeah, circumcision in the Old Testament. And then they say baptism in the New Testament parallels that. So we'll, we'll tackle that a little bit more as we go on. But again, uh, just that first question, when we talk about baptism and the Lord's Supper, which will be our next subject, our next time together in two weeks, um, when we talk about those two things, we believe those are the two primary commands that Jesus gave to the church.

Okay, I grew up in a church that also, uh, gave a third, and that was foot washing. So I grew up in a Brethren Church. When we did communion, uh, we would, we would eat together, and, uh, we would, we would have a baptism often times at that. It was a big church, it was a church of about 5,000 people, um, and, uh, but we were on two separate parts of a big gym. All the women were on one side, the men were on the other side, because after we do all that, we would wash each other's feet. And I was little, you know, I was just a little kid when I went there, you know, I went there from like when I was born till about, I think, 12 years old. So I just thought everybody did that. That's what you did at church. So, so I grew up washing feet, you know, and having my feet washed. Now, I always made it a point to sit next to my dad, so I never washed anybody else's feet but my dad. Other people's feet sort of grossed me out. Um, but again, we'll talk a little bit more about that next week when we talk about communion. But, um, but anyway, it's interesting how different people teach, different churches, and, uh, denominations teach baptism, but also the ways they do baptism.

So I was actually back in the same Brethren Church when I was dunked. We had a, we had a baptismal in the back of, in the, uh, sort of like we do, you know, on the stage, in the back of the stage. We'd fill it with water, and every month we'd have baptisms because we had a lot of people there and a lot of people got baptized. Um, but how they did it was they, they'd say, "In the name of the Father," and dunk you. And then you'd come out, "In the name of the Son," they'd dunk you. And you'd come out, and "In the name of the Son," and they'd dunk you out. So three times. Whereas we just go, boom, you know, and get you out of there. And again, it doesn't say, it just, again, it's baptism by immersion, seems to be the terminology that's used in the New Testament. And so, uh, so we'll talk about that too. But anyway, um, hopefully you just enjoyed this chapter and just reading the different views. Diving deep into this subject is probably more to it than you thought. And, uh, we're even, one of the, even for me, I've read this before, but something hit me brand new that I'll share with you, uh, tonight as well.

Okay, so second one, number two, was, "Define the baptismal position put forth by Gudm, and what is another common name for this position?" So, what is his position? What does he say here? And if anybody could summarize that, and then what do we call that? The term for that, there's actually a few terms, two main different terms we use for it. Anybody want to try?

Well, he was going with the idea that, uh, baptism is only for believers. Yeah. Yes, people who've accepted Christ. And the name for it is believer's baptism. Okay, good. And then the other name would be Credo or Credo baptism. I've heard it pronounced both ways. Either way is fine. Yeah, Credo baptism. Uh, Creed, we get Creeds from that. So what do we believe? Uh, the Apostles' Creed. Apostles' Credo in Latin. Okay. Um, so, yeah, it's just, we don't baptize. So in our church, we don't baptize you unless you profess faith and you have a credible profession of faith. So when children get baptized in our church, I always ask the parents, um, can you, either if I'm doing it or Jim's doing it, usually Jim does baptism anymore, it's just logistically a lot more, um, feasible on Sundays, um, but usually Jim meets with those who are being baptized. And one of the things either he does or I do when we interview families is, uh, without the child there, we talk to the parents and we say, "All right, can you give me some evidence that your child is a believer?" So what do they believe? What, what do they know? And, and I just want you to know, I'm going to ask them next, but I want to ask you first before embarrassing them, because maybe they're not ready. And we ask them, you know, and so if we don't hear something to the effect of, "They know they're a sinner and they have repented of their sins, they confessed their sin, and they have put their trust in Jesus for their salvation," and then the next question is, "That's great. Do you see any evidence of that? Do you see any fruit in their life? Are they different as a result of that?" And sometimes that's, sometimes the first question stumps some. And, you know, again, we'll, we'll wait. Sometimes the second question stumbles them, and then we'll wait. But we try not to rush into baptizing people.

Okay, uh, it's the same thing with marriage, you know, when I interview a couple, many times couples will come and they say, "We'd like you to marry us." And I'll say, "Well, first of all, we need to have a meeting, you know, let's schedule a meeting, and it's going to take about an hour, you know, maybe less, but at least an hour." And what I do, what I try to find out is if both of them, both of them are Christians, because I won't marry non-believers, and I won't marry a believer and a non-believer. So I want to find out. Same thing, if I'm baptizing someone, I want to make sure they're a believer. If I'm marrying someone, I want to make sure. Again, we don't take those things lightly. We don't rush into those things. So, so again, um, this is, uh, this aspect of baptism, I think unfortunately, a lot of churches do is they like, uh, having the numbers. And so they want to say, "We baptized a hundred people this year." And I'm like, "So what? If, you know, again, are they believers? And are they walking the that talk? You know, are they living that out?" Because who cares if you're rushing people through this?

You know, my parents, I don't have any problem saying this on video because Saddleback's just so out there now, but my parents, uh, went to Saddleback where Rick Warren's at for years. And the main reason they were there is because there were so many members at the church that weren't Christians that were coming for membership. They went through all the classes, you know, they have Class 101, 201, 301, 401, and they walk everybody through there. And usually when they have a membership class, there's, I mean, when I was there, this was almost 30 years ago, there'd be 200 to 300 people in a membership class. And the way they basically presented it is, "Does anybody want to go to heaven?" And people raise, you know, everybody raised their hand. "Okay, you know, all you got to do, you know, pray this prayer." And there was nothing about, usually nothing even close remotely connected to repentance, but, "Do you want Jesus? You know, you want Jesus in your life, basically, and do you want to go to heaven?" And so it was presented in the most watered-down way possible. So when my parents would meet with two couples every week for marriage counseling, the first thing they would do is they would take the time to make sure that both those people were saved. And almost inevitably, most of the people who came to them were members of the church, many of them have been members a long time. And then when they asked them to explain the gospel, they couldn't do it.

Okay, so I just say that to go, to say that in our church, and I think any good church, doesn't rush into baptism, doesn't rush into membership, doesn't rush into marriage. These are important things that we want to make sure people know what they believe, why they believe it, and is there a credible profession of faith, uh, going on.

Okay, so, uh, number three, "The mode of baptism in scripture." So again, after reading this chapter and reading the scriptures, were you convinced that the primary mode in scripture is sprinkling, watering, or immersion?

Immerse. Okay, yeah. I mean, it's pretty clear. And again, just passage after passage that, uh, you don't even have to read between the lines. You know, talks about looking for lots of water, where there's lots of water, and you can go in the water and come out of the water, out of the, yeah. And, and so why is that? Let's go to number four. Four explains this.

"What is the relationship between the union with Christ in his death and baptism by immersion?" So again, symbolism is important in the Bible. We see symbols everywhere. We see foreshadowing and types in the Old Testament. We see its fulfillment in the New Testament. But in the, when Jesus comes, he comes and he lives a perfect life, he dies, he's buried, and he's raised. And all those things are displayed when someone's baptized. Okay? So it's a beautiful picture of the reality of our, it doesn't save us, and there's nothing in the baptism itself that adds to any merit to us, but it's a picture. It's an illustration of the inward reality of what God has done in our lives. And so it's a, it's a beautiful thing. And one of the things that I, I do want to bring out, and this is, this is a thing that struck me as I read the chapter. If you go to page 1198, I want to read this because I, I just don't think a lot of Christians ever hear this or think about this. Uh, but not only most of us think about the, the death, the burial, the resurrection, and even our new life in Christ, our resurrection, Christ. But one thing we often don't think about, don't talk about, and maybe never even heard of, is on page 1198. So I want to read it to you.

So Gudm writes this: "In fact, the waters of baptism have an even richer symbolism than simply the symbolism of the grave. The waters also remind us of the waters of God's judgment that came upon unbelievers at the time of the flood, or the drowning of the Egyptians in the Exodus. Similarly, when Jonah was thrown into the deep, he was thrown down to the place of death because of God's judgment on his disobedience. Even though he was miraculously rescued and thus became a sign of the resurrection. Therefore, those who go down into the waters of baptism are really going down into the waters of judgment and death, death that they deserve from God for their sins. When they come back up out of the waters of baptism, it shows that they have come safely through God's judgment only because of the merit of Jesus Christ, with whom they are united in his death and resurrection. This is why Peter can say in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism corresponds to the saving of Noah and his family from the waters of judgment and the flood."

Now, how many of you, that's the first time you ever heard that or thought, okay, yeah. I mean, again, we just, we don't talk about that. But again, it totally makes sense, doesn't it? And it just adds a depth to our baptism, you know? I think it's just a really cool thing. Um, so I'm, I'm meeting with Jim on Friday because he usually is a Baptist. I'm going to read this to him because I don't, he hasn't been through this book. Shame on it. No, I'm just kidding. He's busy. He, he took theology, he took theology in seminary. All right.

Okay, next question, number five, is a fill-in-the-blank. "Baptism is a what?"

A symbol of beginning the Christian life. Okay. Symbol of beginning the Christian life. Okay. Now, again, distinction from Catholicism, it's not the beginning of the Christian life, but it's a symbol of the beginning of the Christian life because, again, what is it symbolizing? Salvation. But you have to, we teach you have to be saved in order to be baptized. All right. So you're not baptized in order to be saved. You're saved, and then baptism demonstrates that inner reality that God has regenerated you, okay, through faith in Christ.

Number six, "What do you think is the strongest evidence that baptism is for those who have received the gospel and trusted in Christ?" So for you personally, as you read this chapter and looked at the passages, uh, what, what do you think is the strongest? Like, if you had to point to one thing, and this is like, this is the strongest point, I think, what is that for you?

Yeah, Walter, Acts 2:41. "Those who received his word were baptized." Okay, exactly. Good. Yeah. So they first received it, and then they were baptized. And again, that makes a case against, I don't, I don't have a Bible. Dana, can you bring me a Bible from back there, please? Um, that, that makes a case for the fact that the person was an adult, or at least not an infant, able to respond, able to receive that information of how to come to Christ. Thank you. Um, yeah, so good. All right. Someone else, what else was another thing that convinced you? Or are you not convinced we should start doing infant baptism in church?

The way it's written here, it says, "When they believed, Philip." So they had believed first. And actually, it was suggested by the, by the UN. Okay. What prevents me from being baptized? Yeah, good, good. All right. Anything else? You know, something that's sort of subtle, but again, we call baptism an ordinance. It's a command. When you command a baby to do something, you know, "Change your diaper," "Go to sleep." Yeah, right. Okay. Um, no, I mean, they, they don't even really know what a command is, right? They don't even have the ability to understand what a command is. So the fact that those, the people were baptized, they're responding to a command, so they had to understand it, they had to hear it, and then they had to respond to it. And so again, that just, it makes sense that you would be a believer. Okay. All right.

Um, okay. And again, if you look at all the narrative accounts, even the household baptisms, for instance, they have to infer that there were babies or children there because it doesn't say. It doesn't say there were babies. It doesn't say there were children. And if anything, it does make a better case that there are believers there based on the different narratives, okay? There's language that suggests that they believed and then they were baptized, okay? So they responded to the preaching of the word. So it's a big inference, it's a big step towards infant baptism, I think.

All right, if you look at number seven, "Let's talk about the covenant argument for infant baptism." Anybody want to give it a shot as far as what, what do they say? What, what's a summary of why, uh, Protestants, some Protestant churches do infant baptism? So not the Catholic position, but the covenant position.

Yeah, my sons were baptized at Grace Church, okay, Marin, when they were, you know, babies, basically. Okay. And I, I was actually unclear, but I thought like, okay, I trust Rod. Um, but I understood his position to be that they were literally like joining the covenant, Abrahamic, under the umbrella of God's seal, right? Right. And, um, anyhow, I, I felt, I sensed that Rod really believed that that was occurring, that that was that change was occurring when he did this.

Are, okay, okay, yeah, good. Yeah, that's what they teach. That's the way they explain it. And, um, and again, there's, you know, there's good people. People I love, people I respect. R.C. Sproul, one of my favorite theologians. He holds that position. I think he's, his positions, he got, no, I'm just kidding. But yeah, but again, there's, there's good people on this side. As a matter of fact, well, yeah, I'll go ahead and talk about it now because I don't want to forget. Um, it's just an interesting thing that happened to me when I was candidating at a church in Woodstock, Connecticut, probably in about 2009, 10, something like that. Uh, I, I don't even remember the connection or anything, but, uh, I, I was candidating at a church in Woodstock, Connecticut. And one of the things that excited me about that was Jonathan Edwards. That actually preached in that church. And I was, and Jonathan Edwards is like one of my heroes. I mean, I love Jonathan Edwards. So, so I thought, "Oh, how cool, you know, if anything, just to check it out, you know, and walk around where he walked and rode his horse and all that kind of stuff."

So I go to this church. It's a pretty decent-sized church, bigger than any church I've ever pastored. And, uh, I go there. There's a group, a candidate, I preached, I answered questions, I taught some classes. Candidating is very extensive when you're a pastor. I mean, they basically check everything out. Uh, you know, you're a fish, you're like a fish in the fishbowl when you're a pastor. So I go there, they ask me everything. But finally, it gets to the point where we have this Q&A time, and there's about 40 leaders in the church in this big room in the basement of this doctor's house. And, so I'm sitting there, I'm sitting like here, and everybody's out here in a round circle. And so I said, "Okay, there's an elephant in the room. There's actually two elephants in the room. Let's address them." And I said, "The two elephants in the room, because it was a Covenant Church, like Marin Covenant, the same denomination, which is based in their flagship seminaries in Illinois, North Park Seminary. So I said, "There's two elephants in the room. One is egalitarianism." And I said, "I'm not an egalitarian. You've read my resume. We've already answered questions about this. I'm not an egalitarian." And some of you are, and you guys do believer's baptism and infant baptism. So let's tackle these right now. And I said, "Okay, here's all the leadership of the church. Can anybody answer me biblically why you do infant baptism? And biblically why you allow women to preach and be elders in the church?" And it was like, this crickets. Nobody could say anything.

So I said, "Okay." I go, "You want me to give you the biblical reasons why I'm not an egalitarian and a complementarian? Biblical reasons why I believe in believer's baptism and not infant baptism?" And then two ladies started crying, and one just got hysterical. And she said, "You're from Satan! Oh, my God's going to destroy this church if you come!" And she just starts, you know, weeping and wailing and twitching. And I'm just, and I'm just there. Immediately, I knew it was over. It's like, "When's my, when's my plane back?" You know? And I knew it was over at that point. But I didn't leave without saying, "Isn't it interesting that the only pushback I've received isn't from the Bible, right? But it's just emotions, right?" And I sort of just left with that and dropped the mic. But I did make a case for my, for my positions biblically, with with a lot of scripture, and I think a pretty compelling case. It was really sad because there was a, there was a large group there that really wanted me there, but there was a very liberal contingent that didn't, didn't want me there. And I've, I've been in that situation several times in candidating. And, and it's, it's just, it's really hard to find a good church, let alone to find a good church to pastor that has good doctrine. And, and again, the main reason I came here is because I could align myself with the doctrine. To find a church, especially that's pro-Israel and believes that God has a plan for Israel, and that's reformed in their soteriology like we are, is almost unheard of. John MacArthur's church is that way. Erwin Lutzer's church is that way. Moody Church, Moody and Chicago is that way. There's a few churches left that hold to both those things. But most churches don't. Most churches are either totally Arminian and they're pro-Israel, or they're totally Calvinistic and they're anti-Israel. So to fit in a church that has the two things that I really value strongly, that I believe the Bible, I think I could defend biblically, there's not a lot out there. So, and I'm too old to plant a church. So when I found this, it was, praise God, because I'm telling you, man, I can't even tell you how many churches I interviewed and candidate, candidate before I ended up here.

All right, number eight, "What are the three means of entrance into the church?" The three means of entrance into the church. A lot of people struggle with this one. Danny, you remember what page that was on? Dana, is the one who found, Dana actually found it for me. 127, 1207. The, uh, yeah, yeah. So if you look at, uh, 1207, second paragraph, "But how does one become a member of the church? The means of entrance into the church is voluntary, spiritual, and internal. One becomes a member of the true church by being born again and by having saving faith, not by physical birth. It comes about not by an external act, but by internal faith in one's heart. It is certainly true that baptism is a sign of entrance into the church, but this means that it should only be given to those who give evidence of membership in the church, only to those who profess faith in Christ."

Okay, so again, uh, for, for a baby, a child to do that, they can't. So if, if that's what allows you to enter a church, then it makes sense that you would enter the church, and then you would be baptized. You would be a part of the church, you would be a believer, and then you would be baptized. And again, you know, there, I, I have to make this caveat too. I would never do an infant baptism because I, I just, I'm not convinced it's biblical. I, I see why people do it, like even what you said, I see why people do it, and I just disagree with them, and I think the case is better for the believer's baptism position. But we've had two people since I've been here, one died and one moved, who I allowed to become members. The elders allowed to become members along with, you know, we, we basically had unanimous consent that they could be members of our church, even though they were baptized as infants. But we asked them, "Are you convinced biblically that infant baptism is the way to go?" And they both made their case. Now, I thought, I have to be honest, I thought their case was weak, but they were convinced, and they just, they just said, "I really want to be a member of this church. It's the only thing I disagree with." And they were both good guys. I mean, they, I discipled both of them. They, they were both very involved in ministry. As a matter of fact, one of them was actually baptized by John Stott as an infant. If you know John Stott, he's arguably one of the greatest preachers of the last century, um, in England, in London. But anyway.

So, so in that case, I made, you know, I was like, "Okay, so like, just to give you an example, if R.C. Sproul moved here, he's dead, but if he did come back and he lived in Marin and he wanted to become a member, I'd have no qualms with R.C. Sproul being a member." And again, I disagree with his position on eschatology. I disagree, he's actually very pro-Israel. He doesn't hold to premillennialism, but he is a very pro-Israel person, which is cool. But he does, he's a die-hard covenant theologian. If Jonathan Edwards came here, you know, again, was alive and came, I'd want him to be a part of our team, you know.

Description of Rod's position that I was, yeah. Okay. Name. Yeah, he's Presbyterian, PCA, Presbyterian Church of America, which is a conservative branch of the Presbyterian Church. So it's a, it's a bona fide position that many Christians hold to. Yeah. But again, I, I would be happy to debate one of those guys and ask him for the scriptural reason. He didn't have any. He did have a very like inviting perspective about, "Get him on the team." Yeah, yeah. And again, that's, that's the problem I have. So if you see, like, I don't know if it's on video or audio, but you can ask to listen to John MacArthur debate R.C. Sproul. Now, R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur were good friends. R.C. Sproul would have John MacArthur come all the time to speak, but they actually debated infant baptism. Uh, and, and they allowed John MacArthur to debate. So we were there, Dana and I were there. It was in Orlando, Florida, and we were there. We were like in the front row, you know, taking notes. And, um, and honestly, I think John MacArthur just annihilated him biblically. So his, but Sproul's case, and the Presbyterian or the covenant position is a case almost from silence and inference because they equate it with circumcision in the Old Testament, and they don't make a distinction between Israel and the church. They believe that the church started in the Old Testament. So that's another distinction that we would make.

Now, interesting enough, he never allowed John MacArthur to debate him on that issue, which I would have liked to have seen too. But, but again, why do I hold to those positions personally? Because I'm convinced they're true biblically, and I can defend those positions biblically. And I know their positions pretty much inside and out. I, I've read their stuff, I've heard their stuff. I'm just not convinced. But again, I'm convinced that R.C. Sproul is in heaven, and I'm convinced that Jonathan Edwards, you know. So in other words, these are good guys, and it's not an issue of salvation, right? So, but I think it's important for us. That's why we study theology is to go, "What does the whole Bible have to say about this issue?" And maybe I don't understand it yet, but I'm going to keep studying. I'm going to keep pursuing the truth. So we want to allow people in our church graciously to be able to wrestle with doctrines. But there's some doctrines that I think are so clear, like justification by faith alone in Christ, that we're just not, yeah, we don't allow you to compromise on that one. You know, so there's certain things that we're just saying, "Well, if, if you want there to be a magisterium and a tradition along with your authority, you're going to struggle here because our authority is the scriptures alone." And so we're going to appeal to everything we do based on the scriptures. So, but again, if you have a different view of how to interpret certain things, let's talk about it. Let's dialogue. Let you read this book. I'll read that book. Let's, let's talk about it.

Yeah, yeah. Is there a harmless version of infant baptismalism? One time we were in a Unitarian Church, and whenever somebody had a baby, they would bring them in, and the baby would be up there in the front of the church, and they would bless, bless the child and sprinkle some water on him and say a prayer. Is that pretty harmless?

Well, in a Unitarian Church, it wouldn't be harmless because Unitarians are so heretical in the vast majority of their teachings. So, like, we do baby dedications. Yeah. So we, we've only done a few because we don't have very many babies, but we have people that have babies. Okay, great. Yeah. But we do baby dedications. And so, so again, one of the reasons we do that, and we make a distinction. Yeah. So we say, you know, we don't do infant baptisms here, but we do do baby dedications. And what we're saying is, like, like a lot of the ways that Protestants do infant baptisms, their hope as parents is that their children become part of the covenant community, part of the covenant family of God. We want them to be saved. We want them to be regenerated. But we don't want to blur. We don't, if we baptize them, it's, it's so murky, it's so not clear. It's more clear to say, "We're dedicating this baby to the Lord," and, and we want the, we're going to come alongside these parents, and as a church family, we're going to teach their children, we're going to model for their children, we're going to love on their children, and we want their children to come to Christ at an early age. So that's not harmless. Yeah. But in a Unitarian Church, if you look at Unitarian, that is harmless. This isn't harm. What we do isn't harmless. What the Unitarian Church does is harmless because harm, harmful, sorry, is harmful because the whole system in the Unitarian Church is based on heretical teaching. Right. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Not, not to say, because, you know, like Ron Carell, you know, Ron Carell came out of that, but, and he wanted to be baptized. He talked, he was here Saturday, he talked about how when he got baptized, he was the first guy to get baptized in the church here, the Unitarian Church. And the pastor didn't know what he was doing. And so he wanted to go back and sort of see if he could see the video or some of the, uh, description of it. But all he knew was he wanted to obey Jesus. Yeah. But the pastor, I mean, the pastor's baptizing, and the pastor doesn't even know what he's doing. Ron wants to get baptized, so we'll baptize him. So closer to a dedication than baptism. I was, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But again, that's the thing, you know, like even when I was pastoring in San Diego, for some reason, because we have a big Hispanic community here too, but maybe because there's several Catholic churches in the area, I've never had anybody call me or come to our church and ask me to, uh, baptize their baby. But when I was living in San Diego, I mean, I get calls all the time. I mean, I had, I had over 20 calls while I was there from people that would call me and say, "Hey, we want to come on Sunday and have our baby baptized." And I'd be like, "Okay, why?" And they'd say, "Why aren't we supposed to?" Exactly. I say, "According to who?" "Well, doesn't the Bible say that?" Where I mean, you know, I, I sort of have fun with these people. And then finally, I would get to the point where I'd say, "Hey, let's get together, and I'll show you some scripture." You know, and then I'd share the gospel with them. But, but it was really interesting. They were just doing it because they were, they felt an urgency because they were Catholic. There was an urgency that if my baby doesn't get baptized, he's going to hell. And that's what they teach. And the only way to be saved is to be regenerated through baptism. So that's, that's the beginning point of salvation for the Catholic. So you could see why there's an urgency there. But then when I'd set, I'd often time bring them in and I'd open the Bible and I'd say, "Here." And I'd get used to, we'd speak in Spanish, and I'd have a Spanish Bible and I'd open it up for him. And I'd say, and they look at me and they, they just be, you know, they're flipping around, you know, like, turn it upside, you know, I mean, they had no idea. And I, and I go, "You want me to show you what the Bible says about baptism?" And I'd just start going to passages. And then I'd say, "You notice what it says?" And when we talked about the case for believer's baptism, I said, "Do you notice what it says about the person that's being baptized? What do they have to do first?" And they'd say, "Believe." I said, "Can your baby believe?" "No." "So why are you baptizing him?" And again, I just wanted to see, this is what the Bible says, you know? So I am responsible before God to teach the Bible and to adhere to the Bible. And I, you know, and again, I wouldn't mess around with the Catholic, I wouldn't talk about the Catholic Church. I just talk about why they were there and why they wanted to get their baby baptized. And then I would say, "This is how you get saved." And I say, "First and foremost, are you saved? Do you believe? Have you repented of your sin? Have you put your trust in Christ?" I got to lead several people to Christ just because they wanted to get their babies baptized. So, but I've never had that happen here. I've been here 10 years, never had it happen here. But many times in San Diego. I don't know, again, I don't know why, but, uh, in God's providence, it was good.

So, so John the Baptist came along, and he was baptized, right? Now, so that's an Old Testament ritual. Or then Jesus, he was, Jesus was a believer. Mhm. When he, he didn't get baptized as a baby. He got circumcised, right? And he got dedicated, sort of, right? He had words spoken. Yeah, he was dedicated in the temple. Yeah, prophetic words, right? Which there might be a case to be made as part of dedication, somebody had this baby's going to, you know, be president. And again, a lot of this goes to the idea of what the New Covenant is and how the New Covenant manifests itself in the church, which we teach. Um, and, and pretty much non-Reformed churches teach that Pentecost, the church started at Pentecost. So after that, what we see is we see the preaching goes forth, people believe, and then they're baptized. So what was it before that? Well, again, why did Jesus? Yeah, again, I think that what was going on is Jesus was really, Jesus grew up like an Old Testament true believer, okay? But after he rose again, you have this transition that takes place. Even, even the church goes from eating on Saturdays to Sundays, you know, from the Sabbath to the Lord's Day, why? Because of the resurrection.

Your first question tonight was immersion, sprinkling, the other one, watering. Watering. Yeah. That's so, and I'm not trying to be funny. You can't immerse, submerge an infant. Or maybe there's a technique. Sprinkle. Yeah, it's a little bit more. Yeah, they do sprinkle, but they wouldn't do immersion. You couldn't believe. No. And it's interesting, have any, has anybody here been to Israel? Yes. Okay. So when you were in Israel, did you see those little bathtubs they have in different spots out of the, whatever? Is that for babies? No. No, they're actually big enough for adults to get to be able to get in. Much. And again, you know, you'd be rationing water or whatever, but you'd have enough water to be able to put it in this little bathtub. And you see these, if you go to Israel, you see them at various archaeological sites. They're usually hewn out of the rock. And, but again, they're not fonts, they're baptismals. And so that goes back to the time of Christ, really. Yeah. Wow. So again, uh, you baptized. Yeah, she got baptized in the Jordan. Yeah. That was the first time you were baptized? Second? No, I just. She's been double dipped. I've been. Something special there. No, but when I came to know the Lord, that was a desire of my heart. And look, the odds I was that I would ever go to Israel, but I come to know the Lord, and immediately, I didn't even understand everything, but I wanted to be baptized because I saw Jesus was baptized. When I was studying John, so in Long Beach, in the winter, December 6th, I was baptized in the ocean. It was marvelous. But anyway, when I first saw that John, and John the Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet, so, you know, that was before the church was us. But anyway, when I saw him baptize Jesus, I was like, "I'd love to be baptized in the Jordan." Just that passing thought in my head. And we were there in the year 2000, and the Lord fulfilled that desire of my heart. And David baptized me in the Jordan. And there were huge catfish in the water. Oh, were nibbling on you? Anyway, but it was just wonderful, very special. You didn't come up with it? No, no, no. And he only dunked me, you know, took me under once. Not to page, uh, 1201. It goes on to explain that baptism is necessary for salvation. "Baptism by water is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation." How do they deal with the thief on the cross? Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, that's a good question to ask them. I don't know. I don't know. Because again, if, again, I think that's one of the best arguments to a Catholic. If you only have a few seconds to talk and say, "Okay, if baptism saves you, then how is a thief on the cross, how does Jesus say to him, 'Today you're going to be with me in paradise'?" I get, they would probably say it was like, well, that was a special circumstance. An exception. You know, yeah, they would probably say that's an exception to the rule. Yeah, I'm assuming. I don't want to put words in Catholics' mouths, but I don't know what else they could say. You have people dying in hospitals where they couldn't be baptized. They could be very similar. Well, that's why they hurry for the last rites. I never realized why that was so important. But again, for us, I mean, I've been at the deathbed of quite a few people, and I've seen, I've had deathbed conversions a few times. And in those cases, uh, honestly, I mean, now I would probably, I would probably encourage baptism. Like, I just thought of that the other day when I was reading this. It's like, wow, I've never actually pursued baptism with those people. Now, most of those people, I didn't know whether they were going to die that night or the next day, and I never got to see them again. But again, they're not saved on the basis of the fact that they were baptized. They were saved on the basis of the fact that they repented of their sin and trusted Christ. And that's all over the place in the New Testament. So if they had the opportunity, but I think it would be cool. I hope I get the opportunity at some point to have somebody who can't, you know, who's stuck in the hospital, they're dying, they come to Christ, and in that case, I think sprinkling would be valid, you know, because again, it's just, it's a symbol. It's not the greatest symbol, but, but they, they want to be obedient to the Lord in baptism, if that's the case. Um, I would, I would sprinkle them. But so outward confession too, it's, it's a, yeah, it gives them an opportunity just to publicly profess their faith to whoever is there. And I, I just think, experience, any of you who have been baptized, it's just, it's just a great thing to experience, you know, to be able to testify to those around you, "I'm a follower of Christ. This is what Christ has done."

Are there other examples other than the thief on the cross where Jesus healed someone? Like, I'm thinking of the woman who was bleeding and wanted to touch his robe, and in his communication with them, it indicated that they were saved in their faith in him. Yeah. Are there examples of that too? Or did he just, or is it just, we know that he healed them, or is it implied that they were saved? Or are there any?

Yeah, you know, I, I can't think. I might be wrong. It's a good question. I've never heard the ChatGPT one, by the way. What's that? This would be a good thing for ChatGPT. Yeah, like he actually. Yeah, no, I think it's a good question. And again, I've never, I've never heard it. I've never even thought about it. But I can't, nothing comes to mind of someone being healed and then being baptized. Um, I don't know. Check it out in your Bible reading this week. Check it out. Look for it. They had to go show the priest. Yeah. But I can't think of anybody in the New Testament getting healed and then going and being baptized. Um, and Jesus didn't baptize. Yeah. Now, I've experienced that. I've, you know, overseas when I was in India, we had, in one day, I saw 49 people come to Christ. That just, I spoke to. I mean, there was a revival taking place. And all 49 of them, well, a few of them got healed. I've told this story many times of the guy's arm growing back. He had a stub here, and his arm grew back. That guy received Christ and was baptized. We had a girl whose goat looked like it was dying. It had been bit by a cobra. Um, and the goat, the poison looked like it was.

going one way and then it started going the other way. After the guy was with, prayed for him. The goat just, it ended up the color of the leg was the same as the other color and sort of prancing around, and the family is all excited. Well, that whole family came to Christ, and they were all baptized. So, in that case, I saw two healings, an animal be healed and a person be healed.

I've never seen it since, and I've never seen it before. But immediately, those people responded in repentance and faith, and then we baptized them. We took them right to the river and baptized them. But that's pretty rare. Yeah, so I was thinking about, so like the woman who touches his, him was garment. Well, that was before the church age began. Mhm. Yeah. So, really, in Acts, Pentecost was when the church age did begin, and that's when baptism, while is still alive, had. But we do see healings. There are healings in Acts. There are various healings. For some reason, nothing's coming to mind though, of somebody being being healed and then baptized. What you see is they're saved and then they're baptized. But it's the implication is He has saved them. Yeah. And to me, that, that's another example of arguments against the requirement of baptism for salvation. Oh, God is that Jesus is, is saving people. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, good point. Yeah. But that's interesting. Let's watch for that as we're doing our reading. But it would be interesting to just read Acts and see if there's anything like that in Acts. But that is a really good question. Thanks for asking that.

All right. Um, next one, number nine. Why can po Baptists affirm neither the Roman Catholic view of baptism nor the Baptist view of baptism? So if you go to, he talked about that towards the end. If anybody finds where he talks about that, 128, and where is it on 12? Number five, further argument. Then the next paragraph, Roman Catholic. Okay. Uh, I'll go ahead and read that. So Roman Catholics, uh, page 1209. Roman Catholics have a clear answer. Well, let me first read a further argument. An objection to the po Baptist position can be made when we ask the simple question, what does baptism do? In other words, we might ask, what does it actually accomplish? What benefit does it bring? So Roman Catholics have a clear answer to this question. Baptism causes regeneration. And Baptists have a clear answer. Baptism symbolizes the fact that inward regeneration has already occurred. But poob Baptists cannot adopt either of these answers. They do not want to say that baptism causes regeneration, nor are they able to say with respect to infants that it symbolizes a regeneration that has already occurred. The only alternative seems to be to say that it symbolizes, symbolizes a regeneration that will occur in the future, when the infant is old enough to come to saving faith. But even that is not quite accurate, because it is not certain that the infant will be regenerated in the future. Some infants who are baptized never come to saving faith later. So the most accurate po Baptist explanation of what baptism symbolizes is that it symbolizes probable future regeneration.

Okay. But again, to, to even find that in the New Testament, where, you know, it's, it's just not there. So it's a huge inference, I think. Yeah. Okay. Uh, number 10. Uh, hopefully everyone got this right. Baptism is necessary for salvation. False. False. Okay. And again, we talked about the thief on the cross. Um, all right. So some critical thinking. Number 11. What effect do you think the mode of baptism, person's experience might have on the way they, let me start over again. What effect do you think the mode of baptism, person's experience might have on the way they think about and experience their lives as followers of Jesus? Yeah. You look like you're ready. No, I was just going to say the mode was sprinkling water. And so, okay, first of all, identifying of that, you know, yeah. So, yeah, the mode of, again, if you just think about it with the gospel in mind, baptism by immersion gives you the whole picture, the whole plan of salvation. It does. You know, you're a sinner, uh, Jesus took your sins upon you, He took the judgment that you deserved. He was, He, He died for you. That represents going in the ground. You know, the water represents, I mean, there's just all these things that tie into baptism by immersion where you just don't get the same thing with sprinkling. Yeah. If they believe they must be baptized, then they've added works to their salvation. Yeah. Yeah. And there are churches, the Church of Christ teaches that that's their official doctrine, that you have to be baptized in order to be saved. The Christian Church, uh, so there's a huge, the church where Dan and I got married, it's called North Avenue Christian Church. It's part of the Christian Church denomination, big denomination with big churches. They teach you have to be baptized in order to be saved. Um, so, yeah. John 3:5 says, Jesus answered, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. So the Catholic interpretation of that is baptism. Okay. But the Protestant interpretation of that is that water is a symbol, and that Jesus is referring to the dry bones passage in Ezekiel and where it talks, actually, he talked about that. You have it in front of you. Read it out loud. "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols. I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances." Yeah. I like that definition. Yeah. So, so again, what Brian just read is that's what Jesus is referring to. And again, it's, it's a, it's a symbol of the fact that we're regenerated by the spirit, made alive by the spirit. And again, in the passage, he's talking about that nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless he's born again. Now, he never talks, he never says in the passage that you have to be baptized in order to be born again. He says that the spirit makes you born again. And and he doesn't say through baptism, through what? Through belief, you know, through faith. So for God, so let you know, so he goes on in the most famous verse in probably the whole Bible. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting lasting life. Okay. Yeah.

So I was just wondering, to further understand the Roman Catholic position, they believe that baptism causes regeneration. So, right, if you baptize a baby, but then, like, let's say, you know, that person then never really, like, they don't go to church and they don't have any sort of believer's life after that, right? And then, you know, they die at age 20 or whatever. Okay. So is the theory then that that person, you know, goes to heaven after X amount of time in purgatory to make up for not living the life, but because they were baptized as a baby, they are saved, period in the story? It just might take a while. I think so. I think I think if you've been regenerated, if you've been baptized, then at least at worst case scenario, you're going to spend more time in purgatory. But the whole system of Catholicism, all the sacraments build on each other, right? All the way up to the point, yeah. Starts with infant baptism, and then you go through catechism and confirmation, and then you go to mass, you know, and then when you get married, that's a sacrament, and then you have last rites, which is a sacrament. So these things are all in addition to, you're just, you know, they're a part of your justification. That again, they don't make a clear distinction, a clear line of demarcation between justification and sanctification like we do. So you have this blurred just a sanctification that's going on. And again, the more penance you do for your sin, the better, right? And that's why you have indulgences and prayers to the saints and prayers to Mary and all this kind of, all these kinds of penal, uh, works that you can do. I just wondered if baptism could stand alone because of the causing regeneration. Well, the best case scenario is you get baptized and then you die. For the Catholic, a lot of people wait before they're going to die. I was actually reading from a guy that was a priest who's now a Protestant minister, and he said that he had a lot of, well, not a lot of people, he said he had about a dozen people in his church in in the Catholic church when he was a priest who came to, they were older and they became Catholic when they were older. And he said, have you been baptized yet? And they said, no, I'm waiting till like the last possible moment so then I don't have to do any penance afterwards. And he had several examples of people that said that to him. That's, but that's the mentality, you know, is, um, you know, that we've got to do, you know, yeah, Jesus died for that, but now that I've sinned since that, I've got to, I've got to do penance for that. And that's the mentality. Yeah. And that's a horrible way to live, by the way. You know, if you've ever tried to live that way, it's, it's not a great way to live. I hope you know when you're going to die, huh? And they just never understood why they had to have the priest come and the last rites, you know, but that explains, yeah.

All right, number 12. What are possible misunderstandings of the Christian life that could be the result of believing in infant baptism, thinking that because you're baptized, you're saved? Yeah. Yeah. It happens a lot. You know, our kids, our kids were in and out. It, I think they all went to public school at some point, all went to Christian schools at some point, but every time we can afford it, we sent them to Christian schools. But, but one of the Christian schools we sent him to was a, was a Dutch Reform school, and a lot of the kids, you know, our kids have kept in touch with kids that they graduated with, Dutch Reform kids, who were all baptized as infants, and most their friends are not. They're not walking with the Lord, you know, they're, if anything, they're about as rebellious as you can get. And I went to a school with a Baptist, um, Baptist leanings in the doctrinal statement, but we had quite a few Reformed kids. And, uh, what's interesting about that is every kid I know that was baptized as an infant, my class was small, I only had 50 kids in my graduating class, but out of the 50, only six that I know of are walking with the Lord now. Um, um, and the vast majority, you know, they grew up in legalistic homes, and and they were like, man, when I get out of here, I'm going to go see X-rated movies, and I'm going to have sex with everything that moves, and you know, I mean, it was just, just couldn't wait to rebel. Our valedictorian went to Berkeley, and I was in Southern Cali, but he got a scholarship to Berkeley. And, uh, he, man alive, I'm surprised he didn't die. He was just a party animal. And his junior year, somebody from InterVarsity confronted him and talked to him about his background, and he ended up repenting and came back. But again, the majority of the students I went to. But what's interesting is there were a dozen kids that I know of that grew up in in in Reformed churches and were baptized as infants, and so far, none of them are walking with the Lord out of those kids. And again, there's no, no matter how you slice it, there's no guarantees. I mean, I know parents that are like the worst parents in the world, and their kids turn out great. And I know parents that are great, and their kids, you know, so again, but that's why it's, it's God saves. God's the one who saves, and God's the one who regenerates. And you do everything you can to teach and model, but there's no guarantees. But I do think that it is danger, what's dangerous is if somebody thinks, well, I've been baptized, I'm covered. Again, it's important that I think there's probably as many children that have been baptized after professing faith that aren't walking with the Lord as people have been. So again, it's, but it's, it doesn't have anything to do with the baptism, right? But I think there is a difference if you think that this baptism is saving you, right? You, you got your cover. Yeah. And you got your fire insurance, you know, I'm not going to go to hell now, I got my fire insurance, but I can do whatever I want. Yeah. What, what I don't know if I was, I couldn't answer. If you're not sure, we, we'll go dunk you right now. I wasn't. We can fill it up in about 20 minutes. What would be, I want to go to the method. They also do, uh, infant baptism. Yeah. So I probably was. Yeah. Yeah. Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Anglicans, they all do infant baptism. Because I never could get away with. Yeah. But do, but do the Protestants that do it, that they believe that it converts, first salvation? They do not. Right? No. Okay. No. They, they have a sort of weird third view, which is that there's a broader sort of covenant described in through Abraham and Genesis, right? And that you were bringing the children into that contract. They, it sort of reflects a different view of the arc of the Bible. That's pretty fundamental. This, this sounds like a small distinction, because by the way, with Grace Church, there's a lot of overlap in doctrine, by the way, in terms of egalitarianism, etc., etc. But this one difference around baptism, it actually reflects a, a meaningfully different interpretation of the arc of the Bible. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Mainly around like, when, when this started. Yeah. And and some people that are into this are really into it. Like I went to Westminster Seminary, I, I started my doctorate at Westminster Seminary, and, and there's guys there that they'll die for this thing. I mean, they'll die on this hill. They're so into covenant theology and infant baptism, and it's part of the covenant. And, and like me, you know, I'm not coming, I'm coming from a totally Baptist perspective, and that's what I grew up with. And so just seeing how hardcore some of these people take it. But again, I see why, again, I understand their position. I'm just not convinced by it. But again, I, and that's the thing, if somebody comes here and they love Jesus and they're serving Jesus and they want to be involved in everything, and they say, I, I believe my infant baptism, you know, I don't, I think that's valid, and I believe in the covenant communion, this thing, it's like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to push that too hard. MH. Yeah. So they don't, the Reformed don't believe that you need to be baptized again when you come to faith in Christ? No. They think, they would really be frowned upon that. Really? Yeah. No, they would frown upon that. Now, some of those, I think some of those churches will, they will baptize you after you're saved as an adult, like if you didn't grow up in the church. Yeah. You came, let's say you didn't come from a Christian family, got saved in college, or, you know, whatever, and you start coming to that church, they'll, they'll still baptize you as an adult, first baptism. Of yeah. But I think now they might see, I guess you're still becoming part of the covenant community. I think they would teach, um, so again, they would still see baptism probably a little bit differently than we do. Yeah. But it probably depends, you know, it, it probably depends on the pastor in a lot of cases. And, and again, you know, the churches that go both ways, you know, like, did any of you ever go to Marine Covenant? Did they ever do a believer's baptism there while you were there? Did they do infant baptisms while you were there? Okay. They, their denomination does both. Okay. The Evangelical Free Church where Dana and I met, the Evangelical Free Church does both. Although I've only been in Evangelical Free Churches that did believer's baptism. But there are some that do have covenant pastors that do both. Or if I've heard, he's talked about Wayne Grudem talked about that in the chapter, that there are some Evangelical Free Church pastors that if somebody's a member in their church and wants to have an infant baptism, they'll call somebody that they know in the denomination who does that, and they'll come and do it for them if they don't buy into it, but they still want them to be part of that church because they live there, go there, whatever. And again, I don't have, I don't have a huge problem with that. But, but again, I, what my job is going to be is to try to make sure that whoever we're baptizing understands what this says. Have you read the New Testament? Do you understand this? What's your view? Can you defend your view biblically? This is the way we do it. Do you agree with this? If you don't agree with it, what do you think the Bible teaches? And can you make a case for it? You know, so again, because it doesn't have anything to do with your salvation in your reading of the great, you know, John Edwards and. Right. Well, I'm thinking of the England's Most Reluctant Convert, C.S. Lewis. So when was he back? I don't know. I've never, I've never seen anything or heard him talk about it. Yeah. But I would assume he was baptized as an infant. Yeah. And he probably left that alone. Yeah. Yeah. He was an atheist. I think he became an atheist at about 17. From 17 to 32, he was an atheist. And then when he came to Christ, I don't know if he got baptized after he came to Christ. If anybody can find that, let me know. That'd be interesting. Again, I read a lot of biographies on him, but I didn't, I didn't, I didn't come across anything like that. Um, but it's not, it's, it's not uncommon. We do a lot of bap, well, not a lot of baptisms, but we do baptisms here. It's not uncommon that a lot of the people we baptize were baptized as infants, and they say, they say, I didn't know what I was doing, and now I know, and I want people to know I'm a Christian, so I want to be baptized again. And that's great. You know, as a matter of fact, I think probably the majority of the people we baptize were baptized as an infant, but they just, you know, a lot of Catholics, and so they just, they don't know. You know, yeah. Well, saved is from Christ saves us. So it's an act of God. And so to me, the baptism is acknowledging that. Yeah. You know, so that totally needs it's not just I want to be baptized, it's like I want to, I want to, um, affirm what God has done. Yeah. That's, that's what I did. It was an adult. Yeah. That was my, my sense of it. I think too, there's an excitement about like when Connor was baptized or Ron or, um, you know, when you see somebody that, especially when you've been, like in my case, where I, where I'm witnessing to them, I'm praying for them, and then they finally come to Christ, they repent of their sins, they trust Christ, you see this change in their life, and then next thing you know, they're saying, I want to get baptized. And then it's just a celebration of this change in their life, and you've seen it, right? You, you, they've not only professed it, you could actually see the change that God has made in their life, and then they profess that publicly, give testimony. It's powerful. Yeah. I, I don't think it's very powerful seeing a baby get baptized. It's like a ritual. Yeah. I think it's exciting seeing a baby get dedicated. Oh, because it's like, okay, these parents want to raise this child in the Lord. We want to come, and they want to teach this child, they want to model for. We want to come alongside them. I, I get excited about that too. But it's, it's hard for me to get excited about a baby getting baptized just because I, I just think so much is lacking both in the symbolism and in the biblical teaching. That's hard for me to get excited about about it. Plus the godfathering. That's right. Oh, that's good. All right. Um, all right, number 13. Uh, we did 13, 14. How would you respond to someone who believes a person must be baptized to be saved? We've already talked about this, but aside from the thief on the cross, is there anything else you would say? Okay. What, what are some passages of scriptures that come to mind for you, just right away, if somebody says, I believe you have to be baptized in order to be saved? What scriptures come to mind for you that would suggest otherwise? "Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life." Okay. "By faith you are saved, not of Ephesians 2:8 and 9." Yeah. And Ephesians 2:8 and 9, I like because it shows the order of salvation. You know, you have, uh, for it is by grace. So first of all, God, uh, gives, He, God's the one who saves you. As a matter of fact, in verse four and five, it says, you were dead in your sins, but God made you alive. God had mercy on you and made you alive. And then in verse eight, when you get to verse eight, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And this faith is not from yourselves, it's a gift of God. Not by works, so that no one can boast." So if baptism saves you, wouldn't that be a work? Okay. Is what you could say to somebody. And then verse 10 says, um, that God prepared these good works for you in advance. Those come after salvation. Okay. So, so yeah. And, and again, there's just a ton more scriptures. I mean, uh, the Romans wrote all the Romans wrote scriptures. Romans 3:23, Romans 5:1, Romans 8:1, Romans 10:9 and 10, all those talk about faith, not baptism. [Music]