Transcription
[Music] Yucky [Music] [Music] [Music]
I remember reading this thing about Google offering you $100 million not to quit. Not today, but 15 years ago, which was a lot of money. What is it?
I like that you're waiting for the question and not reacting. I want to see where you're going to take this. We started over. It's rolling. Okay.
Can you define Neil Waves? What do you think it is? Cuz I've tried and I'm I'm kind of like conflicted. I don't know if the messaging has gone out in the manner that it should. But what is Waves really?
Um, well, my understanding is it's really the first time ever, I think, not just here in India, but really anywhere in the world where there's been such a, um, kind of meeting of everybody who has an interest and a stake in the creative industries, uh, with really the purpose of, um, finding ways to accelerate it further, certainly for India and Indian culture and Indian creators. Um, but I really think that it will have a global impact as a result. Um, and I think, you know, kind of the, the insight for me, at least, um, was that the recognition, you know, certainly on part of of the government, but I think, uh, the creative industries in India in general, the recognition that, um, you know, India really is at the cusp of being a true creator nation. And I get to see it from my vantage point at at YouTube. Um, I see it in the numbers. I see it obviously in everybody that I interact with whenever I'm visiting India. But I think, um, that's the big vision. And I think what's really interesting about it is it's, it's a mix of everything. There's obviously the cultural and creative aspect of it, but there's also the business aspect of it. What's required to be a successful creator? There's also the collaborative aspect of it. There's the private government partnership aspect. And I think Waves, at least in my understanding, is trying to put all those pieces together.
Content creators and politics. Do you think they're more, they're getting more ingrained than they have ever been?
Um, well, the way I think about it is, did you vote Republican or Democrat? Did I? I'm not going to get into all all my pieces. I've been, I've, I've voted on both sides for a very long time. Let's put it, let's put it that way. You're asking, so you're not asking an India question. You're asking in general.
I would say, um, it really goes back to the fact that, um, you know, a place like YouTube is, uh, yes, it's a place for content creators and creators and YouTubers, and most of what we all consume on on YouTube is is entertainment or learning or what have you. But really, it's an information platform. And our mission statement is to give everyone a voice and show them the world. And so, if you think about that, what happens on YouTube is a reflection of what's happening in the world. And vice versa. And so the connection, therefore, between creativity on YouTube and politics or elections or societal conversations, um, in, if you look at it in that context, shouldn't be a surprise. And that's what we see in the US, whether you're talking about, you know, the Republican party or the Democratic party, um, and it's what we saw here in the elections, the gigantic elections that happened here in in India last year, and, you know, just happened in Canada yesterday, and really all over the world.
So, if I were to make the assumption that Trump utilized content creators better in the previous election, does the platform that houses most of the content creators get to sway what should be heard since you control the narrative?
Uh, not the narrative, but who watches which narrative. Yeah, I really don't look at it that way at all. In fact, um, I really think that it goes back to what I was saying, which is YouTube really is a reflection of of what is happening in the world. And precisely, it's actually meant to be a reflection of what's interesting to you in the moment. When you open up the YouTube app, it really should be a reflection of Nikil's interests of the moment over some period of time. Uh, doesn't mean that it's just that. There's obviously we endeavor to show a diversity of content, but it's generally oriented around what we know to be of your personal interest based on your viewing habits, etc. So, you as the user really are in the driver's seat in terms of what type of content you're looking for, what you're looking to view, and it's the job of the content creators to be true to who they are, but then to use the YouTube platform to build an audience. And I say that, you know, YouTube in many ways is the the the the most efficient way of connecting a creator like yourself with their audience wherever they are in the world. But it's, it's really just that you are the one responsible for actually producing the content that's interesting to people, and I, as a fan of yours, um, am only going to watch it to the extent that I'm interested. And so that's fundamentally what happens on YouTube.
In your question about what happened in the recent elections in the US, um, I do think that, um, uh, news commentators, podcasters, or who, whatever you want to call them, play played a played a big role in that election. And I do think that candidates that, um, got the word out as a result of engagement in what, you know, in generations past or years past would have been overlooked as an outlet, um, ended up being successful because those podcasters had large audiences that were interested in what their guests had to say, and, um, we saw that play out over and over. Um, you know, I always say that the success of podcasts on YouTube, it came into focus last year. You know, obviously the elections were were kind of a pivotal point in the US, but it was like an overnight success many years in the making because when we first started investing in in podcasts, um, and I'm curious what your experiences, uh, on our platform, we made like two or three really big bets that I think back then would have been kind of strange. Well, the biggest is we bet on the fact that people would want to watch a conversation, not listen to it. Lots of people listen to podcasts on YouTube, but lots of people watch it. And obviously COVID was an accelerator when people were at homes, they wanted to see what was happening. But, um, there's an enormous amount of content, podcast content that's viewed, not just on mobile phones, but on television screens. So that was one. The second was really betting on discovery. So discovery around not just podcasts that you're subscribed to, but like discovery around podcasts that you might be genuinely interested in. So that was a, that was a really big part of it. So posting the podcast and and going about it that way. And then the third piece is just recognizing that, um, it's not just about building an audience for podcasters, it's also helping them monetize it. So really making it so that podcasts were integrated into our YouTube partner program monetization. So those three bets really ended up being, I think, kind of foundational driver of our of our podcast strategy.
So when I think of podcasting, Neil, news has, there is no information arbitrage. When somebody is reporting the news for a long time, the bias of the reporter is why I might have watched one particular news channel over another. I feel recently people have gotten disillusioned by corporations owning news channels and assume the newscasters views will also be biased. And a podcaster seems to be more of an independent character, so the bias of the corporation doesn't translate onto him. Do you think why people are moving to podcast in the news information space?
Um, yeah, that's really interesting. And I think, um, first, I would say, I think there's lots of reasons why, why, um, podcasters have moved to platforms like YouTube, but also found success on it. But I think two comes down to two fundamental things. Um, one is they would only do it if they felt that they could build an audience on YouTube. So that there was no barrier between them and the audience that they were looking to build.
No, my question is more, why is the audience choosing to know what happened in the world from a podcaster versus a news media channel?
Uh, I have to, you know, I'd say that I don't think it's an either-or. So I would say, and again, just speaking from a, what's happening on YouTube standpoint, we see lots of success from what you would call traditional news channels. Um, they have adopted the YouTube style of content. Uh, many of them have been investing in the platform for a very long time. And I don't mean just clips. I mean like full-on live news broadcasts, um, replays of the broadcast, live streams in many cases. So really kind of all the gamut of news, and we have seen, um, their success on our platform as well, especially when people are coming to YouTube looking for information around politics, um, to use your example, but, you know, whatever sort of thing impacts their lives, we've seen that success. Now, I think what a podcaster does, sort of to the extent that they're related to news, is that they cover the news, talk about the news, but they also are doing it, um, through the means and the tools of a creator, right? Like, so, you know, YouTube often times is about connecting with the person whose channel it is. Like it's not just about what they said in that one particular video. I, as a fan, am interested in that person in general, like how do they go about their day, what their interests are, etc. And so I think the nice thing about podcasting on YouTube is it really combines both of those things.
If I were to push you a bit, Neil, and ask you a binary answer to the question, five years from today, will you be watching Fox or CNN to know what happened in the world that day, or would you be watching an independent creator on YouTube say what it is?
I really don't think it's going to be one or the other. Fox, um, had one of its most successful quarters, months ever on YouTube. Just, I think, just last month, they reported it themselves. They've been investing, and credit to them, right? They've been investing heavily in understanding, uh, this, um, uh, but I also think alongside of that, you're going to see other types of content, like you said, podcasters, be successful. And I think some of that gets at, sort of, the inherent nature of YouTube, which is it really can be all of these things. I mean, two billion people come to the platform every single day. Um, the subset of them that are consuming news, there's going to be such enormous diversity in terms of their preferences, their priorities, in terms of how they consume news on YouTube. So, I just think that five years from now, you should expect to see more of that diversity, not less. I think if I were predicting anything, I don't think it would be a one or zero between those two types of options. I could very well see a third type of format get invented and find success on the platform. That's what's amazing about about the creators on on YouTube is you never really know what they're going to experiment with and then come up with next.
I know it's tough to put YouTube in a box, but if you were to try and define what YouTube is today, what would you say it is?
Um, um, that's a great question. I would say, um, I, I think we are, we are really our own thing. And and what I, uh, what I mean by that is our ambition is to be a, a, a streaming service where you can watch, create, and share video regardless of where you are in the world, who you are. Um, and that's our goal. That's our mission. And what I like about that is it really encapsulates everything from living room screens to television screens to, um, you know, your phone in your pocket, to, you know, car radio, all that sort of stuff. We're not social media. We're not a place where you go to connect or share with your friends. You're primarily there to watch video. Um, and we're not sort of linear traditional television either. Um, we're sort of our own thing because of the nature of the content that's created on our platform.
Being a creator-led content generation platform, are you more a place where content is stored and then streamed? Do you think the technology of doing that defines YouTube more? Or are you a curator of content which shows me what I want to see more?
Um, I think the term curator is a, is a bit of a loaded term, and because we don't curate the content. We've tried in in the past. We had something called YouTube Originals. It wasn't successful. So, we don't do that. What we do. I, the analogy that I use that I think I think sort of works best is most of the people at YouTube, uh, are software engineers or technologists, and our job is to build the stage. And I want that to be the best possible stage in the world. When you come to the stage to this theater, the most comfortable seats, the best view lines, the most amazing, you know, effects or what have you. Um, but that's it. That's what we do. The people that are on the stage are our creators. And so we have to create the tools and capabilities that make them shine the best possible stage and make viewers really want to keep coming back to that theater. And I think that's the best, really the best way to describe, uh, what YouTube is and and what YouTube does.
So, build the technology and then frankly get out of the way. So, is YouTube the show director which picks which show goes on at what time? Or are you somebody who built the theater?
We are really someone who built the theater, right? We don't, um, I don't tell you when to post or what you should say. You have exercised that creative control. Well, back to your point on podcasters. I, multiple podcasters will tell me that they have, they've had more creative and editorial control by taking their destiny into their own hands than they ever had in sort of any other, uh, type of their profession in the past. And that's what YouTube is. You get to decide those things. What I need to do for you is to give you the technology that allows you to match with your audience. Not just, you know, the person who subscribes to your channel, um, but, you know, who, but who else might be interested in it. Um, you know, you produce, um, content and have conversations that might be interesting to an English listener, somebody who understands English, but of course, this conversation might, uh, apply to somebody speaking Spanish or Portuguese or Tamil or Bengali. And so I should provide you the technology so you choose if you choose, choose to have to allow for this conversation to happen in all those languages, as an example. So that's what I mean by like, we build the theater, we kind of build the rooms in the theater, we build the stage, we build the seats, but you're the one who's on the stage.
So Neil, I'm 38 years old. Uh, I have grown up in India largely in Bangalore. So my relationship with content went from watching Hindi TV serials growing up on TV on traditional broadcast TV, uh, to cricket, and then maybe getting my first personal device or a medium to consume content when I was 16 or 17 years old, uh, to where I sit today, and, you know, the movie theater-going experience, all of that followed where I sit today. I'm trying to predict where Nikhil, the 48-year-old, will be, what content will he be consuming on what medium? Uh, can you throw some light on that?
Yeah, I would say a few things might be different in 10 years. First, I would say that everything we've talked about, uh, I still think that we're in the early innings of, um, meaning that the growth of content in general, but, you know, YouTube content is going to only continue to grow on screens like the living room. We're just getting started there. I would say that probably the biggest early stage, sort of phenomenon that I see that I'm very excited about, and actually a lot of it is being driven by what's happening here in India, is just this whole idea of like creator-led content production. So it's like, you know, creators are the startups of Hollywood. And I mean Hollywood, I mean Bollywood, I mean kind of just whatever, pick your metaphor there, um, and just like startups keep an industry vibrant, just like in Silicon Valley, creators do the same thing, um, when it comes to the production of content. So in 10 years, this relatively new phenomenon, which, you know, I'm consider at least for young people, is pretty mainstream, but I think for the general population, it's not quite quite there yet. I think it is going to be pretty mainstream. You know, when I go visit, um, uh, Burbank in California, right down the street from the largest studio in the world, 100-year-old studio, Disney, uh, there are all of these startup studios led by creators like Rhett and Link, Alan Chicken Chow, etc. 10,000 square foot studios where they're producing amazing content. It's done differently. It's done in a very YouTube style. It's done with their personalities, but they're doing, you know, kind of roughly what big studios were doing before. They're just doing it on a different sort of scale, different budgets, etc. So, I think that's going to be a really big phenomenon. I think the other one that's very exciting is, um, you know, the advent of AI and what AI will be able to do for creativity. My view is that it's really going to be a tool that enhances human creativity, never replacing it. We can talk more about that. I think again, you know, you gave the example from sort of you growing up and sort of how these various things sort of came into play for you. I think if you think about it through the lens of young people today, the things that they take for granted, um, were things that, and I'm a little bit older than you, so I had to discover this even even later in my life. They just, they just have been having that experience from from day one. And so I think, you know, one of the things that, um, people shouldn't forget when it comes to the content world is like, ultimately consumers really are in charge. They really vote with their time and their engagement. And today, a young person, um, uh, almost expects all of their favorite content to really be in one place. Everything from a 15-second short to a 15-minute vlog to an hour-long podcast, 15-hour gaming live stream, and 4-hour NFL game, you know, three-hour cricket game. They expect it to be in one place and be able to consume that on whatever surface and device that they want. And so that sort of like plethora of consumer choice, 10 years from now, is going to be even more dramatic than it is today because those young people have had that expectation since day one.
So, building on that last thought, in the future, if you're competing with say Netflix for mind share, will you become more like Netflix or will Netflix become more like YouTube?
I mean, it's a, it's, I, I think that our approach is going to be the approach that you've seen on YouTube. You should expect that same approach, uh, going into the future. Like I said, we produce the stage. We will be the leaders when it comes to technology. Whether it's our investment in AI and the algorithm, in terms of how the product looks and feels, all the bells and whistles we build for creators, you should expect us to continue to do that. But it's going to be our creators that actually determine that sort of creative journey where it goes. And I like that because our creators are infinitely creative. There are, um, you know, 100 million creators in India uploaded videos on YouTube. We have 15,000 creators in India over a million subs. When I was here last, just a few months ago, that number was, I think, 11,000. When I first started at YouTube, like 10 years ago, that number was like four or five. So, just this proliferation of amazing content, amazing creativity is what, you know, is what YouTube is today, and that's what you should expect it to be five, 10 years from now too.
For content like Hollywood and Bollywood, I've had this conversation with a friend of mine who was recently putting out a movie. I know he did consider putting it on YouTube straight up and charging a fee, a smaller fee albeit, but then comes in the concern of piracy if he were not to go the theater or the multiplex route. Do you have any thoughts about that? If I'm a filmmaker, Mhm. and I don't go to a multiplex or a theater and I come to YouTube and I release a movie there, uh, how do you prevent somebody from copying it and republishing it?
Um, we have, uh, for a long time invested very heavily in the DRM tools that that that try to prevent that from happening. Now, if somebody is, um, screen grabbing and screen gaping in a particular way, it's, it's really hard. And there's two aspects obviously of piracy. Um, by the way, I might be able to guess who this friend of yours is. I've heard this feedback directly from from him. So, um, I watched the movie. Yeah. Yeah. It looks amazing. Yes. Yes. Um, uh, there's two aspects to piracy. One is the actual act of creating that copy, and as I said, things like DRM and what we do to sort of prevent against that, at least create enough friction where it's not trivial to do. And then the other aspect, of course, is the distribution piece because like piracy is ultimately for viewership, and if you can kind of choke that piece off, then that's sort of getting at one of the other use cases. And that's where, you know, the fact that lots of content is ultimately distributed on YouTube, we have that choke point around that type of, uh, um, content in conjunction with our policy. So, it's a twofold approach. It's never perfect from that standpoint, but I think, um, history has shown that we have a pretty good handle in terms of that type of content never running rampant on YouTube.
So, my audience, Neil, are largely young Indian wannabe entrepreneurs. Mhm. The line between an influencer and somebody who wants to start a business is fading in India, like it is elsewhere in the world. A lot of my people believe that to sell anything, you need to build influence first, either on YouTube or other social media, and then you build a product on top of that influence. Now, to them, if me at 38, let's say today, I spend 30% of my time on YouTube, 30% of my my free time on YouTube, 30% of my free time on social media, and the balance on broadcast news and the other platforms and Netflix and everything, where should these people focus on building, say, somebody wants to start a t-shirt brand? Where should he build influence today and give me some tips for him to build influence there today?
Yeah. So, I think the first thing that I would say is, I wouldn't, I wouldn't describe, if that's your sole goal, then I would, I would think about YouTube a a bit differently. The way I think about YouTube is it's really the home for creators. And I use that term creator specifically as opposed to influencer or what have you, because the primary purpose of your presence and investment on YouTube has to be, uh, the act of creation about having an idea, whatever the topic, having whether it's funny, whether it's sports, whether it's business, and sharing it. So that's, if that's not really fundamentally the goal, then I think it becomes a bit harder on YouTube. Now, having said that, if that is a goal, then what I hear over and over from YouTubers, you know, here in Mumbai, but really all over the world, is that YouTube is their home because it is a place where they, um, have that connection to their audience in a way that is deeper and more authentic than they can get anywhere else. And so they keep coming back to that. Um, you know, Jimmy Donaldson, Mr. Beast, has these five pillars of focus in his studio, in his office. The very first one is YouTube first, because he knows that everything that he has derived has come from that investment on YouTube. And so if you do that, but do it through a creator mindset, then I think it affords you a world of opportunities because then you can use that home base to build audiences elsewhere or drive those audiences back. But more importantly, to build all kinds of other businesses. There's of course, how you monetize content on YouTube through advertising or a cut of the SVOD revenues. But what's really interesting about YouTube is that if you want to write a book, or if you have a clothing line, or if you have, um, some other product that you're very excited about, YouTube can be the home base by which you build all of those businesses over and over. And I see that, um, happen with our top creators, um, you know, the Mr. Beasts of the world, but really, um, you know, millions of our creators, um, over over time. It's a kind of a long answer, but that's really, but I think that's important because it's not a place that's a fly by night place.
If you were to replace the influencer in my question to content creator, say, in me, Nikhil wants to sell t-shirts. I need to create some kind of content before I can go about selling my t-shirts. So, I have somebody watching my content where I can market this t-shirt. What will work today? What I'm asking you is, in a very euphemized manner, what is the YouTube algorithm to a layman like me? And what can I do today to succeed on it? Success in my definition in this particular subject would be the number of views and distribution I get.
Yeah, I would say that what the most important advice that I give to, two pieces of advice that I give to somebody thinking about building a career on YouTube. The first is, um, really think hard about what type of content you're passionate about. So if it happens to be t-shirts or something related to it. No, I want to sell t-shirts. I want you to tell me content. Yes. But I don't, I think that if your only goal in life is to sell t-shirts, then you better also really care and have passion around creating content. It shouldn't be a means to an end, right? Um, so that, that's what I meant by home of creators. Uh, because, um, if you don't have passion around that, you're not going to be your authentic self, and fans will figure that out very, very quickly, and you're not going to build a fan base. And so the first and most important thing that I would say is think hard about what you are really, really excited about. Um, you know, we work with all kinds of, you know, athletes on our platform and, um, it comes through really, really quickly when they're talking about something that they're really excited about versus not, right? Like it's not just about throwing up a piece of content. And that's super, super important because like the power of YouTube is that it's not just an algorithm of your favorite meme of the week or favorite, you know, what have you. It is about your face, your you as the creator, and you've built that because you talk about something authentically that your fans, uh, understand. That's really the most important thing, and I say that over and over. That's the difference between somebody who's who stops doing it after a few months and that really continues. The second, um, you know, YouTube can be a bit of a slow burn. Um, and so if you are passionate about something, care deeply about it, give it time because you want to, um, set expectations with your audience about what you're going to talk about, what's your content going to be about, what are you going to do, and how you're going to go about doing it. And that builds over time. And that builds in terms of followerships, but it actually also builds in terms of, you know, the algorithm because the algorithm is just a reflection of the audience. So those are the two most important things.
A really smart person once said about passion that the passion about something goes away when you truly understand something. Do you think what is passion to you? Because the answer to my question, you said, you know, you should build around what you're passionate about. What is the definition of passion?
Oh, um, well, I think it is, uh, something that you have, uh, such deep and abiding interest in that you would just keep doing it if it wasn't for all of these other goals as well.
Is there anything like that, Neil? Would you do something if, what is what is that for you?
Um, you know, my background is, I am a technologist by training. I've been interested and, you know, let's say passionate about technology since I was a really young kid. Um, I went to high school in Lucknow. I had a little, uh, software startup back in the day, building software for for for other high school kids and teachers. And so I've always had a deep and abiding interest in technology. But I have also, from a very, very early days, for lack of a better term, been a media junkie. Like I love stories in the general, in the broadest sense of the term. Movies, music, sports. I'm a sports nut. Um, those are like two abiding passions I've had since I could, like I was, you know, probably five or six years old.
And but you're talking about consuming something. I'm talking about you consuming, practicing something?
Uh, well, I, um, I mean, I do try to practice those things. I'm not very good at them. So that's, uh, uh, in terms of my, my, my love of sports, but I'm highlighting it because, um, those are areas of of passion of mine, and the way that I practice them is what I do every day. I think that YouTube is one of the few places that combines both those passions that I have, um, both technology as well as media. And so, you know, did I stumble upon this? Probably, like I got lucky that I was given given this opportunity. But those really are a place where I get to work on technology in service of, like, the thing that I really love.
The more I think about passion and talent, Neil, in my life, it's starting to sound to me more as an output than as an input. I believe I'm passionate or talented at something when I do something and I'm a little bit better at it than my peer group. Uh, I was having this conversation with someone. If I believed that I was passionate about playing cricket and I played cricket for 10 years, trained really hard, and sucked at it, I don't think I would be passionate about cricket. So passion is almost an output. Talent is almost an output, less so an input to me today. Do you think you were good at technology and hence you felt like you could be passionate about it?
It's interesting. I mean, I think what you're describing is kind of like almost a flywheel or chicken and egg type of a thing. Um, I have always been passionate about sports, for example, right? I played little league, I played soccer, I played cricket. Um, I was never good enough to.
But were you good? Were you better than the people you played with?
I was okay. But I, but I, but that interest still continues today. I love playing basketball with myself.
Are you generally a modest person? Like I was asking your team earlier. They said you're a quiet person.
Uh, I am, I tend to be a quiet person. Yes, that's probably how my wife would describe me.
You seem more like a euphemism versus embellishment kind of person.
My wife calls me even-keeled, Neil. So that's, uh, that is, I think, a pretty apt description.
So you're not very emotive.
Uh, I can, I can be emotive. Uh, I mean, my kids would say that I can be emotive sometimes, but, um, I'm, I'm pretty even-keeled in terms of my day-to-day, in terms of how I go about myself. And I think part of it has to do with, I think perspective. Um, I think that, uh, whether there's challenges that you face in your work life or even in your personal life, they can be very, very hard. But, um, you know, keeping things in perspective is really often times the best way to to get through them.
Is that good for work?
Um, I think that it is good for work. I mean, I think the things that are really important, um, in my job leading YouTube is actually having a level head, to be, because that allows for, I think, sort of the most well-considered judgment around things. I, I always say that, you know, by the time a decision comes up to me, it's usually a decision between two bad choices, because if it was easier, then it would have been made several levels below me in the organization. And so if that's the nature of the types of decisions I have to make, um, I'd rather make them with a level head, a cool head. Um, I'd also like to make them with, you know, principles that I've hopefully thought about well ahead of time. Um, especially when it comes to difficult trade-offs. Um, so yeah, I think it is a useful skill, um, in my professional life.
You mentioned Lucknow just now. Uh, you were born in the West, in the US, came back for high school, and then went back. And I read that your father was from IIT who went to the US to do his PhD. Mhm. Uh, the one thing that stood out to me is you grew up on things like Transformers and Baseball and Star Wars. So even though you look like me, you're not really somebody who grew up on the same diet of content as me.
Um, you know what I would say about that though, Nikil? Probably the biggest reason for that is, uh, because you're younger than me. No, seriously, like I do think that I'm 51, so that that does that does make a bit of a difference. Um, but, you know, it's interesting, like I, so I, like you said, I went to high school in in Lucknow. My dad, I was born in in, um, uh, in Indiana. My dad was getting his PhD. So when my parents were were grad students was when I was born, and, um, came back here for for high school. And yes, you know, that was a part of the diet that I grew up on. You know, Transformers and, you know, Star Wars and and all of that. Um, but I'd say a couple things, even back then, and now we're, I'm really dating myself, so like you're talking like mid-80s. Um, a lot of those things had spilled over to my friends here. Um, but I would say, not particularly, uh, a little bit, a little bit, but I, but the other, the other thing though, is like, you know, back to what we were talking about, like, um, these were specific types of interests, but I think that if you broadened it out, you, like I fell in love with cricket, for example, right away. And why? Because I, I liked all kinds of sports. And so whether it was baseball or basketball growing up, or cricket when I was in high school, like the nature of the competition, um, the nature of sort of teamwork and how those things happened, like that was like really natural for me, and and also just lots of ways to have relationships and conversations with people. Um, you know, I loved a particular set of movies. Um, but then, you know, I, uh, remember watching what was popular here, and actually, you know, back to back to media that was right around the time that the media landscape here started to change dramatically too, which was there was of course Bollywood, and then, you know, what T-Series represented in Bollywood, but it was also the advent of things like Star. So that was like a precursor to a lot of what we're talking about today in terms of just changing the media diet through lots of choice, for example, right? And so that was a big, sort of, I think, foundational thing for me when I was a kid. And I, I think, you know, again, people always find these sorts of threads like in retrospect, um, to kind of sort of justify what they've done in the rest of their careers. But I do think that like that early, especially in those formative years of just falling in love with all these different types of media and storytelling was an important part of my childhood that I sort of carried through because, you know, it was one of those things where growing up, um, in the US, like I love baseball, I love, I love, you know, Transformers, etc. And then coming here where, you know, I sounded funny, like I didn't have sort of like those immediate things to connect with people on, but finding some of these common ground types of things like sports, like music, etc., was like really formative for me. And I do think that that's probably back to your sort of passion or interests, like that's carried forward, um, in the rest of my career because I do think that, like the one of the foundational things is we, as human beings, um, are storytellers. Like the way we connect with each other is like telling stories. Like I'll remember an anecdote about you in this conversation, and you'll likely do that about me. Um, well, I'll remember the, the story. Yeah. The story you walked through in terms of your own media diet evolution. Like obviously I know your bio, your enormous success professionally, but like that was an interesting anecdote that you told me that was like true to who you are, right?
And so you've been wealthy a long time. I remember reading this thing about Google offering you $100 million not to quit. Not today, but 15 years ago, which was a lot of money. What is it?
I like that you're waiting for the question at this point and not reacting. I want to see where you're going to take this. What is it about, you know, there's a, I can put you in a box, not in a bad way, but in the manner that techie growing up, IIT dad, I'm going to make the assumption and extrapolate that you were fairly nerdy growing up, Indian origin, making a lot of money in the US in the last 20, 30 years. When you come from that background to India, A, what is working for Indian origin people in the US who are accomplishing as much as you are? And B, when you come here, does projecting patriotism to India almost help open up a market which you and your peer group believe will be really large going forward tomorrow?
Um, when you say projecting patriotism, you mean like Indian professing a love for, uh, like this, the admiration for India?
No, I feel like deep down we are all wearing a mask. Mhm. The mask changes depending on who we are sitting around. Uh, now that the world is so connected, the masks have become more nuanced, cuz one mask in a certain geography can be viewed by another in another geography. And YouTube has played a big part in that. Mhm. So when you come to India now, Neil Mohan, the CEO of YouTube, what masks work and what don't, and which one do you have on?
Oh my goodness. Um, well, uh, hopefully I'm not very sophisticated in masks. So, um, I always like to think that it's what you see is what you get. Um, uh, and by the way, don't believe every single headline that you read, even if it was 15 years old. So I'll, I'll, uh, to start, address the first part of your question. Um, I would say that, uh, I mean, again, just in my, in my particular role, um, what's amazing about YouTube is it really is truly global. Like you just said, like this, this conversation, uh, you know, you've had enormous success here in India, but you've had success all over the world. And so I expect everything that we talk about here is going to be consumed not just here, but really in every other part of the world. And hopefully, what we're talking about is just as applicable in that sense. Uh, you know, when I, when I come to India, I mean, I, I really, um, I'll say a few things that I've said before that I think, um, really ring true. Is you see the enormous success of India on YouTube, but in general, in the creative, and, you know, we started this conversation talking about Waves, uh, in the creative industries through numbers and data, right? Like four out of five Indians is on YouTube, um, you know, billions of hours of, you know, content being created, consumed, 100 million channels uploading videos, 15,000 over a million million subs, um, you know, Indian creators, uh, uh, generated 21,000 crores, uh, uh, $2.5 billion on YouTube in the last three years. I could go on and on and on. But it is not until you are here on the ground that you viscerally understand that. And what I mean by that is the vibrancy around, um, the creator economy. And it's like, kind of, and you sort of alluded to this earlier. It's like it's two things. Yes, you have to be a creative person, an authentic thought. You have to share it with yourself, but you also have to be an entrepreneur. You have to be someone who's really, and what I mean by that is like truly entrepreneurial in the best sense, like someone who's willing to work hard and really give into their passion, kind of a thing. And I see that every time I'm here in India. And, um, I really think that that's where all of this success has come from. Um, and it's not just like their success of these creators in India. Something like, on the order of 15% or, like, uh, which translates to about 45 billion hours of watch time of content created by Indian creators is actually consumed outside of India. So, it's an exporter of ideas and culture. And so, but you viscerally see that when it's happening here, when you see that just walking the streets in terms of how people, what they're watching on their phones, uh, you see that in the conversations I have with creators. And so, that's really what I would reiterate every time I'm here. Whether you call that a mask or not, that's that's the reality from my standpoint.
I'm an investor first and foremost. Mhm. If I had $100 to invest and I could buy Spotify, YouTube, a movie theater business, a Hollywood studio, a news broadcasting company, where would I put my money? If I could only put it in one place for the next decade.
I mean, I can't, I'm not going to give you investment advice. You're a much savvier investor than I am. I can't give you any advice. Um, I would again, just, just, uh, maybe broaden it. I would just say I think that really YouTube is different than all of those pieces that you touched on. I mean, we interact with, we probably compete with some of those players that you mentioned, but, um, you know, our lane is different. It really is about watching, sharing, and creating video. Full stop. That's what we, uh, want to do. We want to make sure that we continue to do it. We are the world's oldest and largest creator economy. And, you know, it's my ambition as CEO to make sure that continues to be the case.
And if I were to go back to the fact that I'm speaking to entrepreneurs who want to use this platform to grow a business, can you give me five non-obvious insights about the world of content that I might not be able to find online?
Yeah. Uh, let me say a few things. First is, um, and I don't know if this is obvious or not, but I'll just, I'll say sort of the things that I, I, I, I think an up-and-coming entrepreneur would would want to think about. One is, you know, places like YouTube, but other platforms also, um, have really eliminated the need or the, like, the fact of a barrier between you and your audience or your customer, or however you think about it. Like, you are in the driver's seat. You get to control what that conversation looks like, and you get the feedback immediately. That's the second thing. It's like, as opposed to feedback that would happen in the traditional way, whether you were an entrepreneur and getting the feedback from the market six months down the road, or from your investors a year down the road. Feedback on a place like YouTube is instantaneously. You see, you literally see it in the comments within minutes of you, seconds, minutes within you posting the video. So that's
A world, uh, that you really, really have to be ready for. The third, we talked about, um, which is true, uh, truly global, right? Like, so, um, you can have local, regional, national sort of ambitions, but, you know, content tends to be global. Storylines do translate. They are specifics, obviously, and obviously culture matters a lot. Um, but that's, that's kind of the, the, the, the third thing that I would say.
One thing that I think is was not obvious for a while is now starting to be more obvious around content is, um, it truly is multi-screen, right? Like, you know, like the mental model when you say the word YouTube, what pops into your head? You might be a mobile phone. Well, um, in the US, the majority of content is actually consumed on television screens, and you know, that could happen in the rest of the world. It's our fastest growing screen. So, just, you know, kind of this multimodality, multi-surface is, is, is super, super important.
And then I think the very last thing I'll say, again, from an entrepreneur standpoint, is, um, our fundamental business model is an advertising model, and that's because we're large scale, right? Like, it is a way to reach a very large pool of people with your content if it's ad-supported. But I also think that, uh, entrepreneurs should think about other types of monetization models, like ESVOD. We have a subscription business, right, with YouTube Premium. Um, direct fan funding models, right, especially if you have niche content. If you are, you know, creating content in a particular education vertical that is super, super valuable, um, but probably doesn't have broad reach, then a direct consumer fan funding type model might make sense. We talked about shopping and and merch and those types of use cases. So be, um, creative and flexible about the monetization models. Uh, but be very rock solid in terms of the content that you're, that's true to you.
If all of all the world is stories and stage, a stage, uh, if Neil had to quit YouTube tomorrow and build YouTube's competition because the world should not just have one, two, or three stages, but many stages. What would you build that can compete with YouTube as a better place to tell stories? Uh, well, hopefully, if that's going to be the case, we're doing it within YouTube. Um, I always say to our teams that we really do have to continue to disrupt ourselves. That's what our creators and our viewers expect, whether they say it or not. They, they do expect that. Um, you know, one area that we haven't talked a lot about, but I am very excited by, and I, I do think it will be disruptive not just to YouTube, but to the creative industries in general, is, is AI and everything that's happening with AI. And, um, I think it can be disruptive up and down the stack. What we're doing, and, you know, I'm sure lots of competition is doing, but what we're doing at YouTube is, how do we turn it into tools that allow for that disruption to occur? Because you can't bury that technological disruption, but, um, allow for it to feel like it is in the hands of the creative people. And, uh, so I'll just give you a couple of examples. Um, the technology exists today when you hit that plus, plus camera on YouTube to now, within a few seconds, give it a text prompt of, you know, let's change this set to one where we're sitting in a spring meadow and there's birds and flowers outside. And that's probably something, uh, that would have taken us days or weeks to put together if that's what we wanted our set to be. AI allows you to do that now in seconds. And that's a collaboration between YouTube and Google DeepMind. So that's pretty profound from a user standpoint. As fans, we're like, "Wow, we get get the benefit of this." Um, really, really quickly. I also think it is a tool in the hands of the creator. Like, it was your decision or my decision to come up with that creative idea, and now it's there. And so that's really cool because now this technology is in the hands of a lot more creators. But it is disruptive because it did disrupt a lot of things that needed to happen in the pre-AI scenario, right? Like that, that days or weeks that would have taken. So I don't want to be naive to that. And so I just, um, I think that's where you're going to see lots of really interesting disruption in a way that creates new opportunities because now 10,000 more people could produce that content than otherwise could have. But I do recognize that it's actually also going to disrupt certain parts of that sort of value chain or stack or whatever you want to call it, um, through the process. And I could give you many examples of that in the creative industry.
If I were to put back the investor hat for a second, let's assume OpenAI used YouTube data for Sora. And again, if you had $100 that you could bet behind one large AI company, which company has the most data? Is it Google? Is it Microsoft? Is it, as an outsider trying to take a bet on the world of AI broadly? Where do you think that money should go? Remove the, remove like your own company from the pitch. Um, you know, is it, I think it's hard to answer who has the most data or what have you. I think that, um, data is sort of one part of, of the equation. I do think that, um, technological breakthroughs and investment in innovation is another big part of it. I, I get to, uh, work very closely with Google DeepMind every day, particularly in areas of, you know, audio and video, right, with the VO models, etc. So I see how powerful that innovation can be. And then there's a third piece which doesn't actually get talked about that much, but I think is also very important, which is the applications of these models. How do they actually show up? How do they show up in a way where they're useful and they capture the imagination, but not just capture the imagination once and then they're forgotten about, but then really become something mainstream. And so I think all three of those pieces are important. At YouTube, our focus is really obviously working on the deep sort of technology and collaboration with DeepMind, but also just as much turning it into tools and features. So, I described this product to you called DreamScreen, which is like, you know, kind of this super interesting product. Wow. Oh my god, you can, you can create that amazing video out of thin air from just this quick text prompt. Of course, it's amazing. It's mind-blowing. Um, but when we talk to our creators, when I talk to creators, they, they love that feature. They think it's powerful. It democratizes creation. All, all great, great stuff. Uh, but they also talk to me things about like, you know, why don't you do something even more kind of basic, basic and mundane, which is like, why not just give me a translation of my video in 10 big languages? Why not give it to me in a thousand different languages? And why not do it in a way where it captures, um, my tone, my inflection, and AI will be able to do that, and that will be magical too, and that will have a profound impact on, like, you know, some kid, um, you know, trying to learn algebra in a small Indian village, and that's like a profound impact on humanity, but it's not as interesting, at least it's not kind of like, like as glitzy of a use case.
Another one that comes to mind that creators always talk to me about is, you know, one of their biggest challenges is sort of the blank, blank, um, uh, screen problem. Like, I have a video, I have no idea what to do next, and I'm a travel vlogger. Um, well, could I iterate with an AI to actually help me come up with ideas on, you know, the next, where should I take my next trip and what sort of video should I produce around it? Uh, so those are, these are the types of things where a lot of AI innovation is happening because that's what makes it actually practical for, for real users.
Are attention spans falling or growing? I can watch a Netflix or a YouTube show for 10 hours and binge it, and yet I hear people's attention spans have come down to 10 seconds or 20 seconds. What do you think? Uh, I don't see it one way or the other. I mean, our, our, we see all, all nature of consumption patterns on YouTube. Um, what are you betting more on? Long form or shorts? I mean, I think I really view them as kind of a, I, I don't view them as two separate things, I guess, is what I would say. I, I think short sort of stands on its own in the sense in that it's like it's vertical. It's shot on a mobile phone. Maybe it gets consumed more in a feed, but all it is is just like, it's shorter video. It's like if you take, put your head back to where YouTube was, if we were just celebrating our 20th birthday, right? So go back to the very early days of YouTube, that people call that shorts. That was shorts back then. And so it's just like, I think it's like a frame of reference thing. Um, and in our corpus, we see our long form content in many cases growing even longer, um, getting more episodic in nature, as you're describing. Uh, and we have, you know, short form content that's 15 seconds, but we get, we get, uh, lots of asks for that short for short form content to be over 3 minutes long. So, like, it's just like a, a continuum. And I think in terms of attention span, you know, I, you know, you can have a long session just consuming quote unquote short content and vice versa. So I, I see it really, um, I kind of see it in, in, we see it in all, all different directions. I don't think there's a one, one or the other.
I use YouTube a lot as a second screen while I'm at work. So if I use it for, I'm watching like podcasts and I don't know, random like studies and stuff like that. I actually find that this is me being really honest. When I turn on a screen, my TV, and I watch Netflix, Mhm. I feel like I'm doing something wrong. But when I turn on my TV and I watch YouTube, very subconsciously, I feel like I'm doing something right. I don't know how to describe this. Yeah. Because somewhere in my subconscious, the latter makes me think I'm learning. And when I'm learning, some anxiety in me is alleviated. I don't know if that's by design or not. Uh, I'm not sure if I, it's not by design in the sense of anything that we have done to either communicate that or pick the content. So I feel like the credit really goes again to our amazing creators, you know, the 100 million creators that upload in India or wherever. I will say, um, learning is a really big use case on YouTube. And when I say learning, I mean the broad definition of the term learning. Um, you know, frankly, in my own experience, I used YouTube a lot for that. Like, and all kinds of niches of learning are really, really popular. Obviously, there's the obvious learning, like, you know, high school kid in the classroom kind of learning. And then there's the other sort of very obvious thing, which is like, well, how do I fix my bike or how did I, how do I fix my garage door? But like the really deep learning use cases are pretty esoteric and can, and have lots and lots of content in very particular places. A colleague of mine always talks about his love of, you know, um, woodworking, right, and carving. And you can go really deep on that on YouTube. I love, like, it's kind of random, but I love like logistics and logistics patterns and how things happen sort of in infrastructure. You can go really deep on that on YouTube. So that is not something that we sort of pick those content verticals on purpose. But just like every niche sort of exists on YouTube, there's 20 billion videos that have been, uh, uploaded to YouTube. That, that's that's every, that's where the experience comes from.
So five years ago, when I turned on YouTube, it was to play songs. Mhm. That position in my mind somehow is lost, has been lost to Spotify. Mhm. Now when I think of a song, I go to Spotify. When I think of a podcast or something around learning, I go to YouTube. When I think of entertainment, entertainment, I go to Netflix. Do you think the music battle Spotify has gained a lot of traction in over the last few years? Why do you feel that way about music? I don't know. It's just how I use it. Mhm. I didn't have Spotify six, seven years ago. And also, I'm not the generic Indian user. Mhm. But somehow my music needs today are not met by YouTube. But more needs of mine around learning are met by YouTube. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, like I said, I mean, learning is a very large use case on YouTube across every demographic, every part of the world. It's one that I'm very proud of. You know, I saw a stat, 90% plus of classroom teachers use YouTube in the classroom in some particular way. So that is core to what we do. But music is our, I'd say, almost oldest and one of our most important verticals by far. It's really core to the YouTube, uh, heritage starting from, you know, the early days of YouTube and T-Series, and T-Series is still one of our most important, most strategic, largest partners. There's a few things that I would say that's happened, I think, to music in, in India in general, regardless of, you know, YouTube or Spotify, which is, you know, the growth of, um, you know, Indian origin music, pop music, um, in that sort of not classic Bollywood, right? Like, you know, we have amazing YouTubers like King, who grew up on our platform, who are superstars in of their own right, but sort of charted their own path, and we, you know, he's, he's obviously kind of a mega star, but there's lots, lots and lots of examples like that. And, um, I would say that that's a really big phenomenon on YouTube, just like it is on other platforms. One of the things that, um, I want to continue to do is, um, uh, invest more in terms of actually showcasing that on YouTube. So again, not about the algorithm or what have you, but having charts, for example, popular charts in not just in sort of classic Bollywood Hindi, but in all of these different languages to recognize those artists. So we're doing more and more work like that, getting more precise about, uh, algorithmic recommendations around spec, because the Indian music landscape is so diverse in terms of language and style that, uh, it sort of, in that sense, presents like a unique challenge and opportunity to how sophisticated the algorithm needs to be to be able to make good recommendations in that context. And so those are areas that we're, um, investing in. We're actually going to talk more about some of that at Waves too. Like, the first night of Waves is the, the YouTube Cultural Night, which is, you know, our, our chance to put our best foot forward of all of our YouTubers. So, yeah, music is, is very important. I'm not sure why you feel that way, but Indian music is like a core part of our, our, our investment.
Any fleeting thoughts? Neil, you want to tell us something? Anything that you'd like to tell us? Um, no, I think what I would say, first of all, thank you so much for making the time for doing this. It's really a privilege, uh, to have the conversation. Um, I would just say that, um, every time I come back to India, I'm, I'm amazed at sort of how much the Indian creative economy and creative industry continues to grow. We at YouTube are privileged to play our role in that. And as I said earlier in the conversation, I think we're just getting started. It's still the early innings, right? Thank you so much for doing this, Neil. You make India proud and hope to see you again soon. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Okay. All right. How was it? It was good. You're, you're a pro. You're very, very well prepared. You guys have a studio there, too? Or, uh, Awesome. Very cool. All right, Nico. Take care. Thank you, everybody. Will you be, are you speaking there or are you? No, I'm participating in some roundtable with the PM. Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay. I think I, I'll probably see you there. You'll probably be on it. [Music]