Transcription
In Germany, only 40% of of hospitals have air conditioning at all. So, intensive hospitals >> Of hospitals. >> They want to treat Europe as a laboratory to test the most ambitious climate policies. The EU is a perfect, if you like, petri dish. >> The European Union, in general, they are interfering with air conditioning on multiple levels. Like, national administrations need to submit 5-year plans how they want to advance toward net zero. How to fulfill these EU plans is actually to get rid of air conditioning in public buildings, in hospitals, and so on. >> This week is the start of the Irish presidency of the EU Council. We're not going to see a change of direction. There is this tiredness in the population of this kind of work extremes and taking it, you know, far too far. In terms of the NGOs, I do see that the Commission and and then therefore also probably the Irish presidency being more reluctant. I've already seen that NGO is almost seen as a negative word. >> Volkswagen, they have made a fundamentally wrong assessment that electric vehicle is the only way to go forward. Costs in Germany are rising while at the same time innovation is basically put on hold >> because of regulation put on the automotive industry. Volkswagen is the vanguard of a much bigger European problem with the automotive industry.
>> So, hello and welcome back to the MCC Brussels podcast. As ever, I'm Jacob Reynolds. This week on the podcast, we're tackling Europe's great big air conditioning debate. We're going to look at the start of the Irish presidency of the European Council and whether it's going to be a slew of woke initiatives. And finally, we're going to take a look at the car industry and disturbing news coming out, especially in Germany, of the costs that Europe's green prices are playing on the car industry. Joining me this week on the podcast, delighted to welcome into the studio a real friend of MCC Brussels, someone who's been around us for a while since we set up in the city. Uh James Holland, who's a parliamentary advisor and been all around kind of Brussels expert. James.
>> Thank you very much, uh pleasure to be here, guys. As I say, big fan and uh I think uh MCC has been a big breath of fresh air in Brussels. I've been here nearly 20 years and uh it was great to see you arrive and the work that done in these few years has been really, really refreshing for for the city. Sad to see that they're trying to go after you with this you know, removal from the transparency register. Um, I think we need more voices like yours. So, but yeah, pleasure to be here with you.
>> No, cheers James. And joining us back is Richard Schramm Richard Schramm.
>> Thank you. And we even survived the heat wave here in Brussels.
>> We did indeed survive the heat wave. But that was actually going to be effectively our first topic. I mean, there are some parts of Europe that are now this was starting the the the heat wave. Things are pretty bad in Central Eastern Europe now whereas we had the worst of it last week. Um, but it's kicked off this incredible debate which never thought would be such a polarized political issue about air conditioning. And especially in some places like France or Germany, this has become a real dividing line between the right and the left with somehow it being considered now a right-wing even far-right wing positions to say that you'd like your house not to be at 30 32° in in the evening and you'd like some air conditioning. Uh, Richard, what have you made of this this whole whole debate? And why has it become such a polarized almost cultural issue now?
>> Well, it's it's more about identity politics well once again. Um, if you obviously there is some appeal to it that you want to um have a cooler planet as a whole and you you think that your climate policies are going to cool down the planet or keep it cooler at least. That's appealing because it presents a solution to everything at once. Um, but what we see that heat people who are dying of heat or or having health problems because of of heat that's a very um specific segment of society people who are elderly who are who have sicknesses. So, if we would install air conditioning for them, it make make air conditioning available through through low energy prices for them. That would solve a lot of the heat heat deaths problems that in Europe already. Um, it's not about making air conditioning available for for 18-year-old um on people after they have paid played soccer in the in the That's not not not not what we're talking about. In Germany, only 40% of the of hospitals have air conditioning at all. So, intensive >> of hospitals >> of hospitals.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I mean, in many intensive care units still don't have air conditioning and that that's that's something that we we really we need to discuss and uh what we see on the on the other side is that at this complete disregard that we we need um cost-effective solutions now uh by people who are in charge. So, France's Minister for Climate, Monique Barbu, uh was completely horrified that people are even speaking about air conditioning because that doesn't stop the planet from burning. That was her uh argumentation. And if you look at her um political and and professional career, you you you see that she was born to a a French um colonial family and in in in the protectorate of protectorate of Morocco, then she became entangled in foreign aid NGOs and the United Nations, of course. And then she was member of I'm not making this up um at the European um at the Council of the European Union of a high-level group of vice persons. I'm not kidding. And now obviously she's uh she's an international gender champion as well. So, these people are horrified of air conditioning while the normal people who are either sick or they need to work and um in these conditions are I would actually very welcome that it would be available to them.
>> James, what what what do you make of the whole air conditioning be a huge debate huge debate debate on online, but also it's kind of come even the commission's been forced to answer questions on this. What what do you make?
>> Yeah, I mean, of course, when you start to hit 35° and more, everyone's going to talk about air conditioning in Europe. I mean, that the uptake of air conditioning is so low compared to other countries. Uh I mean, Europe is a big continent. Uh Lapland and Andalusia. Um so, I I'm scared of attempts to say the commission must act here. I don't think we want the commission to determine who should be allowed to install AC and who shouldn't. Um you know, what happens in Andalusia with their temperatures is of course very different to what we have in northern Finland at the moment. Um so I'm reluctant to say come on, we need to act here. Uh this is very much a national competence, it should be. The EU has regulations that put pressure. This this seeking of net zero in the energy performance of buildings directive uh and F gases for example about refrigerants. Um so there is this you know, indication from Brussels that you need to try to reduce your emissions. Of course, air conditioning consumes a lot of of produces a lot of carbon dioxide. So I think it's up for countries, regions, you know, municipalities to determine what they really need. But it's clear that high temperatures are very dangerous. Uh they affect uh exam periods for example. You know, if you're lucky enough to take your exams or have your classes in an air-conditioned school, you clearly have an advantage over those that don't. Um so I think that we do have to kind of address these issues, discuss these issues. But I do think that it's up to the local authorities, global national governments to find solutions, and for the commission to not impose too strict net zero rules whereby air conditioning is just not an option anymore.
>> Yeah, that that issue of choice which I think is ultimately what we should focus on it. But it seems to me both European level regulations, national level regulations, councils going even further in some places, historic building rules being used to stop people. It's only the the basic principle that you might want to decide and people can have different opinions. Some people might like not mind it when it gets a little bit hot. Other people might really suffer. But that individual choice is really really constrained especially in Europe.
>> Uh of course, I mean um that if you if you look at the regulations already in place, the European Commission and the European Union in general they are interfering with air conditioning on multiple levels like um emission trading schemes, the high end prices. National administrations need to submit five-year plans how they want to advance to what net zero. And one of the easiest things that is how to fulfill these EU plans is actually to get rid of air conditioning in public buildings, in hospitals, and so on. Because you are thinking what is more important, air conditioning or heating in the winter. So, if you need to move towards net zero, you first get rid of air conditioning and then the big question is with a heating in the winter. Um so, that's um the EU is actually setting up a lot of incentives to not have air conditioning in Europe. Um and because it's all about net zero. If net zero is achieved, then everything is is solved. At least that's the thinking of of many because they are in this um as the French minister previously, she she was also in this thinking that the world is the globe is burning and if we stop it from burning, then everything will be solved. But, environmental and health issues are much more than about net zero, actually.
>> Yeah, I mean Charles, I've seen lots of people in Brussels voting with their feet. There was a day when I was uh walking about and almost everybody seemed to be trying to carry home a new air conditioning and a unit. But, but the part of the problem is that these I mean, you can when the restrictions, especially on the building how buildings are built and all the rest of it, things can actually be done much more efficiently. And instead, people are being forced to kind of makeshift solutions because the ability of people to live in just normal cool homes isn't really there.
>> Yeah, I know, absolutely. I think I I was in Media Markt. I was going for basically air conditioning shop to air conditioning shop last weekend. Um and I went to Media Markt and there they had sold out. The big sign at the front saying, "We have absolutely no more air conditioning units." Um so, yeah, I mean, people are desperately trying to find a solution during these hot periods. And we've got another one coming next week, another heatwave coming again. So, this issue is going to stay up there. Um what what what I think is important is to make sure that, yeah, as as I said before, the commission um is not incited into regulating this area because we have deaths obviously when we see these kind of figures there's a crisis that's announced. We got to put still relativize this. A lot more people die from the cold than they die from the heat every year. So, you know, if we have these increases in temperatures we're seeing now what this is is ultimately better because less people will be dying during the winter. But we do have this, you know, these peaks in summer during these these heat waves, you know, people do need to have that personal choice that ability. I think we know what those large air conditioning units look like. They're all the ugly of course you don't want to put that in Portofino or some of the beautiful places in in Europe you don't want to see those all lining up the streets. So, you know, there's a lot of local regulations that say you can't put them on the roofs, they make too much noise at night, etc. etc. But this is where Europe could maybe take the lead, you know, innovate in this technology, make this so that it is less noisy, that it is integrated into our architecture so that it matches the rules and regulations that we have in place which maybe in America and Japan and South Korea they're much more relaxed about having their streets lined with those units. So, I think there's an opportunity here as well. And I think that there, you know, the the the governments and the the European Commission should allow us to to explore this rather than saying we're against AC, we don't want to innovate in this area. There's no point. So, I'd like to see that kind of change of direction.
>> Yeah, well I remember during COVID when all of the German communists started think rubbing their hands thinking they might be able to produce air filtration systems and that might save the German economy. Well, so similarly maybe moving into the air conditioning. But but we're going to come back to the German economy a little bit later. Okay, moving on this week is the start of the Irish presidency of the EU Council for our viewers. I mean this is largely a technical role we're supposed to facilitate meetings and all this. But each country gets a chance to kind of as well put its own stamp on on on this endeavor. And obviously being Ireland which is well known throughout Europe of being the kind of good good boy model citizen Ireland's always looking to to the the EU on going further on all of the regulations, all of the woke issues, etc. etc. So, you can expect the Irish to have a little bit of a sense of that. And some of the things they've already announced very much fit the scheme. James, what what what can we expect, do you think, from this Irish presidency?
>> I think you're right. I think, you know, that they're they're definitely seen as the good boys, you know, in contrast to some of the other member states when they take the the presidency. I don't think Brussels expects many confrontations and and public spats with with with Dublin. Um I think that there is one area where uh Ireland will be concerned about the direction of the Commission going forward. The the fact that they're able to enjoy these lower corporate tax rates and therefore able to boost their tax receipts compared to other member states. There's been growing pressure within the EU over many years now to say that there needs to be some some form of modernization of these tax rates. Now, those receipts are so important for the Irish government. I think three companies contribute 50% of their corporate tax receipts. If one of those companies were to decide to leave because of a fear of uh Brussels looking to introduce such rules, uh that would be devastating for the Irish uh economy, the Irish budget. Um so, I think that Ireland is, you know, going to be very wary of allowing such discussions to progress during its presidency, but also trying to maybe lay some groundwork to make sure that these aren't part of the programs of the future uh presidencies. So, I think that that's a big concern for the Irish government. In terms of the program that they've announced, it's very much playing the the the the the um the standard uh priorities of the Commission are represented in the Irish presidency uh program. Um as I say, I don't expect any big big conflicts there. We know that there's um Agora EU, which is the large um chunk of the um next MFF, um which has as its mission statement to improve democracy and uh support independent media, I think that we need large government funding to do these things is red flag for me and I think also if you know a lot of the work that you've done at MCC kind of covers these areas. So I'm sure Ireland's not going to put up any resistance to that. They'll look to push on those negotiations on that MFF and make sure that that fund which approaches around 10 billion or 9 9 billion euros over those seven years. So those are the areas I'm looking at. I'm intrigued to see whether the commission is going to put pressure on Ireland because there has been this desire to remove that advantages they have that that competitive advantage they have.
>> Yeah, well we have a new briefing just out on this so our viewers can learn a a little bit more. But one of the other areas Richard is I mean as part of these budget negotiations which really Ireland has to in theory try and get over the line cuz they're they're due to be concluded before the end of the year. Um is farming. And so the budget contains a lot of potential cuts to farming. Ireland's got a very strong rural interests and we've seen big farming protests in Ireland only very recently. Some commentators have described these as the the largest threat to the existence and security of the Irish state since since since its founding in its its contemporary form. But what how do you think the Irish are going to handle this issue?
>> Well, we have seen that the Irish government was not really keen on protecting the Irish farmers even though they large um uh constituency within within the within the republic but um in real terms since 1990 in the last 40 years um the Irish farmers receive only 1/3 now of EU subsidies than they ever did back then. That's this this is how the Irish government is representing their its farming community at European level. Maybe this also explains the why they have um protests by farmers in in in in in Ireland. And instead we are to what we are talking about are NGOs that the Irish government is giving into this NGO complex. Um that's very sad actually. Uh I don't see any Irish interest in this or European one um to begin with. I see the problem with the with the digital corporations. That's that's part of a bigger negotiation problem with the European Union's next 7-year budget because they want to inflate the overall amount of money that they're spending, but the the national governments cannot pay more into the EU budget, so they are in search for money. France and Spain have already targeted the digital corporations that they want to tax them more. And um the Irish are obviously very skeptical of that as as we have thought previously. So, that will be a big fight. I I hope that the losers of this will will be the NGOs. But that's only a hope sadly. We will see.
>> Yeah, well, I I think it's to change once again they got a huge NGO slush fund called the the Gore project like and we're receiving a plenty of money through that. But James, the other I mean Ireland just has this track record of just of kind of going along with what Brussels wants, often going further on the what I mean for lack of a better phrase but always called the woke issues. Ireland is always right out there in front even when they kind of get knocked back by their own voters. They'll have a little bit of a chance to steal this to steer this during the things and so issues such as online speech regulation. I think going to be a part of it and potentially also work on accession of of new countries. And and anything else that catches your eye. Can we expect this to be as it were kind of woke EU presidency?
>> Yeah, I mean, we're not going to see a change of direction. I think even though we're seeing resistance grow across Europe but also in Ireland. I mean, we've seen many demonstrations on different issues in Ireland. So, there is this tiredness in the population of this, you know, kind of work extremes and taking it, you know, far too far. I think that in terms of the NGOs and that funding, I mean, I don't expect any change of direction there. But what I do see is that given the extra scrutiny including the work that you guys have done, some of your excellent reports, which have opened a lid in how, you know, this funding can warp the debate and the the discussions here in in Brussels. I do see that the Commission and and then therefore also probably the Irish presidency being more reluctant. I've already seen that NGO is almost seen as a as a negative word given all the negative stories we've seen around Qatar, around the green NGOs of the Qatar who was funding. So I mean I hope that they are listening to the concerns around Europe and they're not going to double down during the presidency. But at the same time, I mean Brussels really is a bubble. They almost live in an alternative reality here. It's very hard to pierce that. So while, you know, reports have shown that the Commission is funding NGOs to then reinforce its own policies, you know, something that's clearly against, you know, the way that the the Commission should be working. Um The Irish presidency is going to take the lead in fighting that. I think we can expect these, you know, MFF negotiations to put in place these budgets which are not clearly defined yet. These are big pots of money set up, you know, to protect journalism, to protect democracy. What does this mean concretely? Well, this will then be laid out in subsequent presidencies.
>> Next up this week we want to talk about the car industry. It's a topic we haven't covered, I think, nearly enough given how central it is. We actually have a deep dive that will be coming out in in the next few weeks on this topic cuz the car industry is really important to Europe and important to us at MCC Brussels, but the alarm bells are ringing in Germany this week cuz there was a leaked report that Volkswagen is planning to cut 100,000 jobs which given, as everyone knows, the central role that the car industry plays in the German economy. But at the same time, we've had announcements of job cuts all over the German economy incessantly for the last two or three years. So but alarm bells are ringing, local politicians were promising in a kind of Stalinist fashion that we're not going to let this plant shut down. They will meet the targets and carry on producing cars, but it it really is rigid and kind of warnings. The EU is officially against gas and also banned the combustion engine. Um it is a sign that these policies, along with the energy crisis in Europe, is simply the economic cost is rising and rising and rising.
>> I mean, the US made a and was a particular Volkswagen, they have made made a fundamentally wrong assessment that electric vehicle is the only way to go forward. Uh while most of the world is going that electric vehicles are one way to move forward. They call it the multi-pathway uh approach be Japan and most notably China. China is world leader on on electric vehicles. At the same time, they are publishing more research on combustion engines than the US, Europe, and Japan combined. So, they this is this is the way forward. You need you need both because they have both strengths and weak weaknesses. And Europe actually could be big enough to to have companies that are specialized in one or the one or the other. But we have actually forced all the companies to abort their successful combustion engine programs that sold very well and that and now they have to switch on to to electric vehicles. And what we see is a very strange political bickering about which targets should be fulfilled when and and stuff instead of having them on the market have some say say in this. Uh and here we here it comes Volkswagen, which is a very strange construction because the state government of Lower Saxony is still in in in in there. So, they they actually try to outperform in this regard even the market because of this political influence into the company. Um and Germany is in a notable bad position because German industry is after the because of the high energy prices the the structural deficiencies the educational stuff going on in Germany. Um so the production um costs in Germany are rising com- compared to other other other places while at the same time the innovation is is uh is basically put on hold because of this of this regulation put on on the on the automotive industry. So it's not only about Volkswagen it's a it's a Volkswagen is the vanguard of a much bigger European notably Central European problem with the automotive industry.
>> Yeah and and James I mean if Volkswagen's the the kind of cutting edge of the problem in the car industry the car industry is kind of encapsulates so many of the other problems that Europe faces in economy in energy in regulation etc.
>> Uh I think Volkswagen's an interesting example as well because I mean I I I used to work at one point for the small car parts manufacturers of Europe. So they employ you know hundreds of thousands of people. Um and so when I started working with them we were trying to highlight the difficulty of the EU policies we're going to have on that sector. These are as you say Central Europe Slovakia Czech Republic Germany Poland there's a lot of companies that create all these small little metallic plastic parts that go into a combustion engine car. Um and when I first met with with some of these industries they were I was saying so where's the car industry defending you? You know they have the contacts with the commission. The car makers the car the final car assemblers if you like will go to the commission say you can't do this. And they said no the the car makers are are signed up to this. Um they're not going to defend the part manufacturers for the combustion engine. So I think that shows you a problem in Brussels which is that sometimes the largest players enjoy the EU regulations help to shape the EU regulations to give them a greater market share to push down the competition. Other times also they're scared of confronting the commission when they should. So if the commission is is is confronting you in one area you pick your fights. If they're going after your emissions, but they're also going after your designs uh or other parts of a large sector like the car industry, you've got to pick your fights when you're going to confront the commission. And so sometimes you give ground in certain areas such as the combustion engine because if you fight there, you're fearful that they're going to come after other parts of your industry. So I think that there's this double game that some of the large players play which is to protect their interests, enjoy new regulations that give them a market advantage, and then also be scared of confronting. I heard this from many industries who have a scared of confronting the commission on on policies that are directly threatening their you know, their their their profitability.
>> Yeah. And and also Richard, I I imagine I mean it may be this even in some of the car industry. You can imagine certain executives feeling this, but certainly among politicians, just a disregard even of the kind of material play like like James just said, the green dogma becomes so entrenched in certain places that the consequences were just not considered important whatsoever. And now they're beginning to feel some of them.
>> Yeah, yeah. I I I I
>> I mean to to directly connect to what James has said that we I mean there was a research paper, academic research paper just published some some weeks ago that was about how the emission targets for for for vehicles were set by an alliance of large car manufacturers excluding the other economic players in combination and they were in a coalition with environmentalist NGOs. And the commission followed this line conveniently enough. And this is how this green deal was set up that we you had this oligarchy monopoly-like structures aligning what with the bureaucracy and the and the transnational activist network. So that was a that was the origin of the European Green Deal. And and then we had of obviously this this this coalition, this this green dogma going on and carrying on and Um, completely ignoring the the cost of of what they are doing. So, um, actually, maybe the best thing Europe could do is to to reduce, um, climate um emissions by 80%. That would be economically much more efficient because there's also the Pareto rule is also here in effect that with 20% of the effort, you can already have, uh, uh, 80% of the gains. And that would be, uh, kind of an an unreasonable approach, but any kind of reason is completely is thrown out the three windows. So, I was once in a debate here in Brussels at one of the European networks and uh, I dared to say a policy that is causing the the the the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs is not not going to be emulated. And this was replied by a lefty journalist like, "Yeah, yeah, the planet is burning anyway. The loss loss of jobs doesn't matter." And I mean, if you're if you're arguing in this with this fashion, then, uh, there's no no chance of of of any kind of reasonable economic bargaining, um, about discussing the cost of these policies. It's all about, just feeling good uh, and being right in the end, as they think. Yeah.
>> I'd like to yeah, come in straight away on that. Because you make me think of two things in particular. One thing is that we've had a lot of talk since the EU elections, uh, saying that there's this right-wing coalition now that is defeating the Green Deal. Uh, it's a bit of a narrative that's, you know, that this EPP and everything to the right has got a majority now and that, you know, finally rowing back on these things. But when you look into the detail of a lot of those, uh, votes that we're having in the European Parliament, all we're doing is delaying. We're giving an extra year. We're excluding maybe small and medium-sized enterprises from these regulations. We're not rowing back on these destructive policies. What we're doing is just giving a bit more leeway for companies to adapt, more time to adapt. So, I don't buy that, you know, now after this EU election, the commission is rowing back. No, no, they're maintaining maintaining a lot of these policies in place. They're just giving ground in a couple of areas to please, I think, those parties on the right who have voters who are very active at home.
>> [snorts]
>> Uh taking a bigger step back and the green energy and I I mentioned before about this, you know, Brussels kind of lives in this alternative reality. One that's heavily influenced by by money coming from the commission. Taxpayers' money is collected by the commission, redistributed. There's also a lot of foundations and think tanks that are that come also from the US. And I think this is very important. It's not known so much, but the European Climate Foundation is one of the largest uh green lobbyist activist organizations in Brussels. They have a budget of over 200 million euros a year. I think 260 last year, 270 the year before. They distribute funds then to about 700 or more or a large number of organizations to promote the green agenda, net zero policies. But a lot of this funding comes from the United States. So these are a lot of foundations that are based like the Bloomberg Foundation. They are funding the green uh the European Climate Foundation. The European Climate Foundation in, I think, 2013 said that they want to treat Europe as a laboratory. So they want to treat Europe as a laboratory to test the most ambitious climate policies, things that wouldn't pass in the United States because of the way the US system is, the way that voters are the way that there's much more scrutiny of policies than there is in the EU. The EU is a perfect, if you like, petri dish to test these policies. And And this is what the European Climate Foundation has done. This is why we had during the last the first one of the Lion term so many policies that have imposed such costs in the hope of reducing global temperatures and emissions while at the same time the US is fracking and we're importing LNG into Europe and China is building a new coal power plant every day or every week or every two weeks now. Um and so this amount of funding that is present in Brussels warps the discussion, makes it seem that there's a consensus in support for these policies. And so then if you raise resistance, you know, you kind of get shouted down. People just ignore you and go, "No, no, but this think tank and this professor um this organization, these medias are reporting on this story. So, everyone's agreed, so let's not discuss it anymore." It's It's very toxic, and we don't talk enough about the fact that this money comes from the United States, and that these organizations, while they enjoy air conditioning, while they enjoy cheap energy, you know, these the families that own these funds or the corporations that created these foundations are enjoying the best of modern life, and yet they're treating Europe as this kind of experiment for these, as we're saying, destructive policies that are impoverishing and closing down businesses.
>> Yeah, that's a very very important point. And that's sometimes wish that we hear a lot about American interference in European democracies ever since Trump came back in, but the real interference never gets actually mentioned. And And And And James, you've highlighted it very well, I think.
>> So, thanks for joining us on the MCC Brussels podcast. As ever, please do watch this. Watch it again. Help us with our our viewing figures. We appreciate it. Give us a comment. Like. You can find all the episodes also on our X feed, so do follow us there. It's very very important. We say this every week. Without the support of our dedicated regular viewers like yourselves, we are often subject to the kinds of algorithmic manipulation that constrains conservative patriotic voices on online platforms. We really appreciate your support at every single time. But for now, that's it for us on the MCC Brussels podcast. Thanks so much for James coming in.
>> Pleasure.
>> Thank you very much. Richard, thanks for your time again.
>> Stay cool. Thank you.
>> We'll see you next week on the MCC Brussels podcast.