Transcription
All right. Well, we're we're live now with episode 116 of Sik Talks. Um, my guest is Katherine D, and we were just talking about the the the foibless of live streaming on Substack. Um, Katherine or or or also known popularly as Cat as well. Um, you're over in Chicago, right?
>> Yeah, >> that's where I find you today. >> Yeah. >> Nice. Um the the we are in the midst of a of a winter break right now. A a temperature break that reminds me of Chicago a little bit. I've always found Chicago to be a very very cold place. Are you a climatized to the cold?
>> No, not at all. I I grew up in South Florida. >> Okay. So, >> yeah. I I mean I've lived in New York, but I I spent the majority of my adult life in California and Texas. So, >> so what So, sorry to cut you off. What brought you to Chicago then?
>> My husband's job. >> Oh, okay. Gotcha. >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. How do you How do you find it?
>> It's all right. Um, you know, the first few years I lived here, I traveled a lot and I really didn't um I I feel like I didn't get to know the city and now we have a child and I'm pregnant with twins, so >> Oh, wow. Congratulations. >> Thank you. Um, but I feel like it's it's going to be uh it's going to be a while until I can really get to know the city.
>> Got it. what what so you are a a writer and an internet culture reporter um as well as a a a newsletterer uh on on Substack. Um I I'm not sure when I became aware of you exactly, but you have come up a lot in conversation over the last few months partially because of your um you know back and forth with W. David Marx um former guest and friend of the pod. um partially because of your the piece in in um the New York Times as well as as through your own channels about um the internet as the the the don't let me mess up the term >> as as uh either fairyland or the astral plane. So as like an other world, >> right? Another world, right? This is that was the term I was searching for. Um and then also because you have been I don't know you pioneer it exactly but I I think of you as as uh like operator number one of a really interesting live stream call-in show operating through substack which I just think is a is a really cool it's a it's a great format hack slashcall back to the coast to coast am you know lines of our of our childhood. So anyway, I just I I think you're doing some awesome stuff, Catherine, so I thought I would ask you to be on the show and shoot the [ __ ] with me a little bit.
>> Cool. Yeah. I mean, I'm flattered. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Well, so what I was going to ask was like when you say it's going to be a while till you get to know Chicago in in your like oove, what would getting to know Chicago entail? Like when at what point do you feel like you've gotten there? Is it when you've gotten into the nooks and crannies of subculture? Is it when you've visited all of the private detective shops in town? Is it when you've eaten every, you know,
>> Well, definitely. I I I the one thing actually I have done is I've tried a lot of different restaurants. Uh >> okay. >> Because I I feel like I especially right now be between the weather. We were just talking before we went live. It's like we're dropping in the negatives here right now. Um, so between the weather and then having a toddler, I like I am a prolific Door Dasher, which is a little bit embarrassing, but it allows me to try like I've tried like every restaurant that will deliver to my house. So I do I feel very confident about the restaurant scene. And then whenever I get a free moment, um, and certainly like when my husband is free, we try a new restaurant. So restaurant scene in Chicago, um, I am I'm well >> on top of it. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But um I mean, it's I just like I feel like when I lived I mean like in a I lived in Austin for a little while and I feel like I you know like I just like knew who to call for like anything I might need. Um it was like both like pragmatic and like kind of fun. I had a good sense of what subcultures were operating. I what bars to go to. Um, it's it's like kind of hard to quantify. It's like you just feel like you know a place. Um here I feel like I know my own neighborhood pretty well. Um, and I mean that's it. I know my own neighborhood.
>> So I mean one of the reasons I asked is because I think this with this exploration of fairyland astral plane otherworld that you've done in some of your writing and and and a lot of what I imagine as a as a connection to let's call it a cult theories or just the idea of of um disintermediated spaceime. Um I I would imagine you look for niches in like your daily life as well as in this kind of you know professional life cultural pursuit.
>> I do. Um it I will say like it was it's much easier in Austin. Um to a lesser extent uh in the Bay Area. Um the Bay Area has a lot of certainly has a lot of subcultures but not necessarily subcultures I was drawn to. Um, I mean I I encountered a lot of them, but I I like uh like a cult and sort of fringe subcultures. Um, and they have like rationalists and different uh, you know, types of tech people, but like the thing with like a cult like the occult is that you really need like a strong middle and working class. Like that's that's >> about what does that mean? like it doesn't the people who are actually practitioners um tend to be like middle and workingclass people for some reason and so that's why like Austin was so rich when it before the Californians moved in during co >> um I mean it was already like pretty gentrified in the 2010s but uh it it got like turbo gentrified during co um >> there was you know there was a lot of like uh like wealth diversity class diversity in Austin and there were there was a very very rich neopagan occult scene um of all different kinds and for some reason it doesn't really attract um like highinccome people um and I don't think there's like a particular reason for that but it's just something I've like noticed and you tend to find uh more active uh robust scenes and and the way I the way I've I've often described it as like a place you don't need a reason to live. So like you grew up there or maybe you lived in like a small town like 10 miles away and you know like uh like Corpus Christi is like that, Austin's like that, Dallas is like that, Chicago is like that. Um you don't need like you need a reason, you know, unfortunately for people who grew up in the Bay Area, but you need like a re like if you're not from the Bay Area, you need a reason to live there. You need a reason to live in New York. You don't really need a reason to live in Chicago. you just live in Chicago or uh Texas
>> and and that and that that's where you find more of these these groups. Um and I don't really know I don't know if it's actually like connected to to class or if it's more like uh professionoriented. Um but yeah, I I I there like there was so much um activity in Austin. And I thought it was so interesting like you had psychic vampires, you had, you know, every flavor of neopaganism under the sun, there was theists, the Gnostic church. Um, and there's there's like a sort of a similar vibe in in Chicago, too. Um, and like maybe the explanation is it's like people who their first priority isn't their career and maybe they're like a little bit bored with what the immediate environment has on offer. Um, you tend to find also like more um, and this is just my experience. I'm sure it's not true of everywhere, but at least places I've lived, more niche hobbies too. Um, the less kind of like uh the the fewer professional opportunities there are and the fewer the fewer like status games in a way. Um,
>> like it it was very hard for me to find like covens um or like uh another one is like rare instruments like people who play like the herie gertie or something. You don't really find that as much weirdly in puppeteers um in a place like New York. Puppeteers obviously being the exception for New York because you have so many you know like Sesame Workshop and and what the entertainment industry. >> Yeah. But um yeah, like the these sort of like uh more I don't know if it's like what you would call they're not smaller cities necessarily, but like more diverse or something.
>> Um less transplant heavy cities have more interesting uh subcultures. Well, we have we I mean, there, you know, this this theory of liinalism and the idea that the further away you are from a center of cultural gravity, the the less bound by its rules you are certainly, you know, probably takes effect there. But it's it's interesting because when you were talking about the class participation in particular, it made me think a little bit of what we or it made me wonder I should and I I would pose this to you. It made me wonder about what we are now hearing about like the Koshian poly market kind of universe where the the ticket to a a better life or a different life or a greater quality of life or whatever is through these means of um, you know, like hacking the cosmic algorithm right figuring out how you take wisdom of a crowd and you put it together for your benefit. Do you feel like there's any of that or is it something else?
>> Yeah, I mean def defin definitely with things like um manifestation um and like you you also find like a lot more like new age. So I I would it's it's very similar, but I would say there's like a distinction between like the occult neopaganism and and the new age world. Um the new age world I think you're more likely to find people who are a little bit more transactional. So they're trying to manifest. Whereas >> it's more it's so much more of an identity when you say like when you're like Wiccan for example like you might not be trying to use magic to like get something out of the universe but when you're in more in these more like new age paths crystals things like this like there is I think there is this there you're it's it's a means to an end. And I would agree that um, you know, it's you probably find like a like richer like new age scenes um where there's uh less emphasis on profession or less opportunities with profession as a way to like bootstrap yourself into a better life.
>> Right. Do you do you is it your experience that people manage to achieve that incrementally or exponentially or somewhere in between?
>> Um it it depends like I I think you know a lot of these these communities make people very happy and are very fulfilling. >> Um not always. I think it depends. I mean, like you of course you hear like horror stories and there's there's cults >> of course >> and there's there's toxicity. Uh there's also like people like spending money on things that like aren't really helping them. But, you know, like something I really like about um occult groups is, you know, people will stay in that like will encounter a a Wiccan coven for example in their early 20s and they'll stay they'll stay in it until they die really. Um and it it brings them a lot of fulfillment. um even if it is maybe like a type of performance or space to play like I mean I you know I I I see it and also experience it as like as a religious faith but I know that you know not everyone will you know appreciate it in that way and I think no matter you know how you slice it there it does really bring something uh good to people's lives gives them some meaning.
>> Um I think it's it's a little bit more dangerous with some of the new age stuff it it depends on what um you you know what uh strain you you encounter and like and what what your goals are. Um >> yeah, >> where was Oh, sorry. Please finish that thought.
>> I was I was going to say like I think like the manifestation stuff can get kind of um get kind of dangerous. Um not like literally like dangerous, but dangerous in the sense where like you sort of lose sight of who you are because it's always you're always asking. But um some of these uh groups and traditions that also have an emphasis on on giving and relationships and imagination and creation um I think are much are much healthier.
>> Yeah. Where if you don't mind my asking where was your sort of point of entry into this ecosystem as a as a participant not so much as as a observer or chronicler of the of the world?
>> Um I was like I was pretty young when I first encountered it. um you know it my so I got a book by Brian Fraud who um he designed the puppets for Dark Crystal and Labyrinth um that's where most people are probably familiar with him um but he also has done he has has written and illustrated like many beautiful books about um, you know, Celtic otherworlds and >> um I I thought that was it was it was sort of way a way to introduce enchantment to my life. I received it as a like this one of his books as a gift. Um, and this was like the early 2000s. Um, so the internet was kind of new and um, it like everything felt kind of like rare. So there was like this like challenge to then go find similar content um, and you know, similar books. And I remember there was like a candle shop in the mall that felt like sort of like whimsy goth. Um, >> oh, this is in and then this is in South Florida. Yes, this is in South Florida. And it all felt like very like um exotic and like difficult to to access at I mean I was I don't know I was like 10. So >> I was going to ask how I was going to ask how old you were and how much this is like formative versus >> Yeah. You know >> I mean I might have even been a little bit younger like eight. Um I was I was like just like tail end of elementary school early middle school. Um, but yeah, so it was it it it was like that and then like the radio and anime like they all felt like these sort of like interesting like difficult to access things like as a non-driving child, right? Who only has the mall and like and this really like sort of primitive version of the internet and you know isn't like particularly literate, right? Because I was a kid. Um >> yeah, of course. So then it's it started there and I um you know as I got older I was I and the internet became bigger and then my my uh mobility expanded. Um I was able to find like more things and it just always stayed um it stayed like interesting to me. Um so it's always it's kind of been on my radar for for a for a while. Um >> uh there it there's just it I think and I think also as a child it was like a way to like really like enchant my immediate environment. Um because there's this idea there was like there could be spirits and the wire is behind the TV or like all I had to do is go outside and get like leaves and that you know make a po like potion or something or you know so >> and then by by doing that you could then exert some modeicum of control over your environment >> or make something happen. >> Yeah. I think for me it was less about control or like trying to become or or or get something and more about like entering this other realm. >> Sure. >> Uh you know I think it's the same reason that like uh like teenagers who are in sort of like you know uh sterile suburban environments will like be drawn to psychedelics. It's like it's like this portal into Narnia. Um I also really liked dolls. Like I liked all of these things that sort of allowed me to like enjoy where I was but then add my own kind of flare to it in this like you know private kind of fun way and these and they all and they I built on them uh throughout my life like with like my interest in dolls like I I'm still a collector but also like for a while in um >> in college I haven't done this in like years and years and years I would do like stop motion >> um to like weird songs I had found on MySpace uh so and Todd t taking inspiration from Todd early Todd Haynes. >> Yeah. >> Like Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. >> Um well, it's interesting because that sounds not dissimilar to play just general sort of generic play, right? How how does it how how did you what distinguished it as being this other world adjacent experience as opposed to just young Katherine playing with dolls?
>> I mean, I think I don't think there is a difference, right? I I I think it's a matter of like how you how do you appreciate um how you know, how do you appreciate and view play? >> Um sort of a sort of like a cringy uh person to evoke, but I think this is maybe like the one like smart thing he's had to offer, which is Jordan Peterson. Like I somehow like saw a clip of him on like Tik Tok like like 2 or 3 years ago where he was saying that like we don't have enough appreciation for play and we're constantly trying to make excuses for why as adults we still play. And I thought that was actually really sharp. Um and there is something to that. Um and you know we don't need to like uh treat it as like like sacred or anything and and and forego our responsibilities as adults to play but there's a time and a place for it and it is it is really important no matter how old you are.
>> Yeah. No, I I agree with you completely. I also I think you know part of the reason I'm asking about the the the other world adjacent sort of way of looking at the world or viewpoint is that having grown up as a as a skateboarder, one of the things that that happens when you get into it is that you start you see the the the built world in a different way, right? Like a set of stairs is not something simply to escalate or deescalate descend I guess is the better way to put it or not. Let's just generally deescalate everything, right? But the the descent it is it is a it is a piece of terrain that you can fly over or that you can fly up or that you can slide down or whatever the case is. And you start to look at you you look at the world literally in a different way. And that then creates a sense of possibility about how everything can be used, shifted, turned 15 degrees, whatever the case is. And I wondered whether you you experienced sort of a similar change in perspective um by virtue of these, you know, understanding of of other worldly
>> I think so. I mean, I think I have >> um less of an, you know, this isn't necessarily the setting I prefer, but I have like less of an allergy to like shopping centers or like artificial lakes or, you know, like artificial downtowns because it doesn't it's when you're already sort of like prepared to see the world differently. Um or like you've had the experience of like um, you know, reimagining places with with friends. Um, it it makes you like sure it would be like so much better to have like old like European architecture or be in nature or something, but also like it you're not >> we don't have Florida. >> It's not it's not a death sentence, right? To be in this sort of like artificial terracotta downtown.
>> Sure. Well, it also, you know, it's interesting because it it brings up to a certain degree this this whole conversation that that happens at the moment about people, Gen Gen Z people in particular, trying to return to or practice some level of of quote unquote boredom. In other words, not being constantly occupied by the screen in front of them or by the discourse or by, you know, whatever social expectations, but literally sitting in in boredom as a means to steal yourself and to and to to gain some fortitude. Um, I certainly experience that without, you know, not by choice. But I wonder as a as a a mother of young children and and soon to be more young children, like do you do you think at all about how your formative years are is are going to n and and and dealing with that are going to you know navigate how you how you or inform how you parent.
>> Um, well, I don't know. Uh, I mean, like my taste obviously, right, is got to, you know, >> which books I buy. Like my my son has a lot of puppets that he really likes. >> Oh, cool. >> Yeah. Um, and some of them have been gifts, which which has been cool. I think that's like a a really interesting toy. Um, I mean, and he's he's almost two, so he's like really he's just entering this like phase of imaginative play. Um I I don't I don't know yet. Um it hasn't he's so he's so young. Um and then you know next I'll have infants and they so like the like questions about like screen time and stuff haven't come up like practically. I I tend to say that like I you know I'm not going to I'm certainly not going to like hand them an iPad. >> Partially because it's you know I don't need to like I I um I have a lot I'm very uh blessed that I have all this availability. >> Sure. Got it. >> Um and I can I can just hang out with them. Like there's nothing there's no sort of reason yet for me to like keep them occupied. But, you know, you know, it's so easy for me to say that and say that I'm going to try to be like, if not screenfree, like uh, you know, like screen discerning, but I don't, but we're not there yet. So, like even if I did hand him >> um an iPad or something, he's too young to know. He might, you know, there's I can't imagine what he would do with it. But who, you know, who knows what what uh curb like?
>> Yeah, it's funny actually. I mean, it's like supposing you did. I think you'd be surprised at how quickly he intuitively picks up on what is happening and what his, you know, realm of possibility is with it. And I think that's that's part of where the panic around screens and and young children comes from is this not like there, you know, young kids are. So I have two I don't have two young kids. I have two older kids. My mine are 19 and 16. And but when they were little, it was remarkable how much they knew but couldn't express. And so when you gave them the means to express, you get it going. However, that's a little scary cuz you're like, "Fuck, look at all of this stuff that they've that they already understand, right? I was not prepared. >> I'm not prepared to have the talk with my 2-year-old type situation." Um, but yeah, I just I what I'm what I'm I'm curious about is I think you know, you're you are at an interesting age and and and like on the in the midst of a life stage change that is really intriguing and that people in our sphere of media and punditry write a lot about whether or not they know they're writing about it. Meaning that like this whole discussion around generational attitudes or or changes or differences or whatever in my view is less driven by generation and more driven by life stage. Like when you became a parent, things changed in a pretty major way that you never anticipated and probably didn't plan perfectly for, but you're getting through it and doing fine. And when you come out the other side of it, you just are like, "All right, cool. This is >> it's fine. It's manageable." Um, so I'm I I'm I'm I'm always curious to people who are in the pundit class, let's call it, and forgive me, that's meant as a compliment, not an epithet. Um, like to what extent you you try to architect it yourself and to what extent you try to just you sort of go with the flow and figure it out.
>> I mean, I think I go with the flow a lot. I mean, something I am like a little bit concerned about is um, you know, like what happens when he's old enough to there's a thing in my my own work that I'm like ashamed of or feel like would be inappropriate, but like, you know, I I I can be polarizing for reasons that are actually kind of unclear to me. Um, yeah, people say mean stuff. you know, I'm like, what happens when you're like >> Google's mom and there's like some, you know, mean people saying BS about like that's something I'm very concerned concerned about and I'm like, should I should I tone it down or like pull back a little bit because >> or or engage reputation.com to scrub your digital, >> you know, like what I mean, will it matter? Does, you know, it doesn't doesn't matter. >> Um, so that that's something that's s that's sort of on my on my mind. Um, I think I've sort of naturally become less concerned with some of the more like, you know, minute stuff, you know, like the little dramas that used to occupy me. Um, I I still will engage time to time to like I'm in this like really silly like Twitter beef right now, but like who cares? Kind of mistakes, >> broad strokes. >> Yeah. Like I just I I saw there was like a short film on my timeline and I said it I said it was mean and the filmmakers are having a little >> responded responded with mean comments. >> Yeah. So we're just having a back and forth like you know am I am I a woke scold for saying their film was mean? You know um so >> are you a woke do you feel like you're a woke scold?
>> No. No. Certainly not. I mean, I don't think they should I like they should be free to broadcast this film however they like, you know, provided that they have the proper release forms and whatever. It's everyone's consent to be in it, but that doesn't mean it's not a mean project. >> Sure. Yeah, for sure. >> You do what you want, but even like it >> um you It's funny like you you bring up Twitter beef. I I was talking we you your your name came up in discussion in a sort of a salon if you will that that W. David Marx put on in December and he was talking about the discussion that that um or or the back and forth that you guys had around Lubu and and that whole universe. That was in I don't know what October that that happened. Something like that.
>> Something like that. It was a while ago. So the the reason I bring it up is not to rehash it, but rather to just say you also I you're interesting to me because you live in an ecosystem within the Twitter sphere or within the media writer sphere that I have never participated in and don't and don't penetrate to any great extent, but where there is that kind of back and forth and discourse. And David was was speaking of you very highly though you disagreed. It was like this is what we should be doing. We should be going back and forth and doing that. Is that your general experience with those kinds of exchanges? Like are you in other words, are you not happy per se to be in this beef, but like at least active like uh happily participating.
>> Oh, it's like a good that's a good comparison because I feel like uh you know with David I felt like I was just he's you know he's very talent I'm I'm a huge fan of his. Um, so I felt like I was just just sort of offering my perspective and it didn't feel like an argument necessarily. It just felt like he thinks this, I think that. You know, there's no right or wrong. It's just sharing ideas, which is which is very productive. Um, but the but some of the other stuff I get into is just like name calling like like this thing with the film, right? It's so it's so silly and small, but like it's I mean it's totally I'm wasting everyone's wasting their time, but something like uh you know with with David it's like you know he gives he he he gives his readers a lot to to think about. Um and it's also like very respectful and it's uh you know it's about the topic at hand. It's not like >> uh it never devolves into like a personal attack or anything, right? Um, and I think, you know, I think in terms of what our actual discussion was about, like I I think I'm like prone to uh like coping, I guess, or like trying to make the best of a bad situation. Like it's not it it kind of isn't ideal that like the cultural offerings we have on hand are laboo and, you know, this treadmill of Tik Tok trends. Even if you can, of course, you can do creative things with it. I think there's been a lot of interesting uh new comedy that's emerged from from these forms. I mean, there's there's a there's a whole laundry list of like really great, cool, entertaining, productive, whatever things that have emerged from our current cultural landscape, but that doesn't mean that nothing has been lost and that doesn't mean that it's the best possible situation. And I think one of my flaws when I approach this conversation is >> I'm like I come off as an optimist, but it's a little bit of it's it's actually a little bit of defeatism because I don't I it's instead of offering like um a way to change, it's it's it's almost always here's how we can make the best of this. You know, it's it's I think you can simultaneously say like something like Skibbidity Toilet >> is actually this really interesting creative project, but also like we lo we lost so much by losing uh you know a form like the novel.
>> Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Um what uh that actually brings up a a point I wanted to well in in a certain respect it's the it's the razondet of this show, right? So, this show is ostensively a companion to my newsletter, sick, that gets published on Wednesdays and in which I'm sharing the links that are included in the newsletter and and my guest is potentially riffing on a few of those. But the the real reason for it is because I am interested to know where interesting people get their information and inspiration. And you you talking about Tik Tok trends and monitoring that stuff. I wonder like what are what are your go-to sources at the moment for I don't know it doesn't have to be new stuff but just stuff that engages and and intrigues you and gets you thinking about this sort of thing.
>> Um I I've sort of been in a funk since like the fall. Um >> but uh I I spent so lately and again you're speaking things that are not ideal. This is not ideal. Um, I've spent a lot of time on TikTok and then also sort of like indulging stray thoughts and asking trashy PT about them, which has actually been like surprisingly uh generative in some ways. Like I read read all this like Gothic lit like I sort of by chance got like advertised the Haunted Hill House which I had like which I had never read some familiar. Um, it's a it's it's a it's a horror novel. It's sort of like a late Gothic book. And I was like, well, what's the >> Sorry. When you excuse me for interrupting, when you say Gothic, you mean literally Gothic period or Gothic style?
>> Um, so like gothic lit starts sort of in the I'd say like mid 1800s. >> Okay. So literally Gothic period then. >> Yeah. And then so but the haunting on Hill House is much later. I think I think it's from I think it was published in the '60s. Um, but it's sort of in this lineage of uh they what what ties gothic lit together is that they have these like kind of like haunting themes like they might they're not necess there's not always a literal monster but they but they have these things like vampire lit uh ghosts um and it deals with this sort of darker side of life >> and that all fit that all fits under Gothic as a sort of >> and so there's different period there's different periods of Gothic literature um so you have like southern Southern Gothic sort of famously, but but it but but at any case I so I listen so I I listened to the audio book actually and I listened and it was really good and it was like a full cast and it was it was awesome and then I was like well what are like more books like this and I ended up getting into all of these different uh all these different books. Um, and you know, learning about like how how like long this lineage is. Like um, I was really surprised by how scary and provocative uh, you know, some some books were. Um, I had never I had never read Carmela and I read Carmela recently and um, The Monk. Um, and I was just like really surprising cuz I I feel like I had this like very kind of like historically illiterate like stereotyped idea of like what was allowed like some older lit. Um, so I've that's been my experience sort of sort of lately. Um but uh you know normally um when the weather allows and when um I'm I'm in a better mood, I'll I'll like go out and just sort of observe my immediate environment. Um another thing that I that I always do and I've done for a very long time is I listen to old radio. Um, mostly Coast to Coast AM, but you get reminded of things that like are like relevant today that people were talking about 20 years ago.
>> Sure. Where when when you say old radio, where does that where does old radio exist in that regard?
>> Um, so you could so you could like, you know, pick a you have to pick a show, right? >> Right. So So let's say Coast to Coast AM. >> Yeah. So you you just I mean people just repost to them as podcasts and there's all these like libraries. >> Oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't >> Yeah. And you you see this with like public access shows too. Like there's these small dedicated fan bases. And that's another way to like learn about interesting things. And like with Coast to Coast, it's not only like a reminder of like what were people actually saying and thinking during like the Iraq war for example, but also like >> um you know, Art will mention um uh like books that he's reading or like every now and then he'll play a song that a fan sent in. Um, and that's that's also like an interesting way to expose yourself not necessarily to new things, but uh things that you might have forgotten about or missed the first time.
>> Yeah. Have you um engaged at all with MTV Rewind in the last couple of weeks?
>> No. So MTV Rewind is this interesting project where a guy someplace I don't know I haven't really read up on it on on him enough but he he he created a an app that pulls from the YouTube API and and this database of third 33,000 music videos that would have aired on MTV in particular historical periods or ultimately on MTV program shows so like Yon TV raps for 120 minutes or alternation or whatever. My three favorites, which is why I named those. The um but the thing that's interesting about it is that it it does a reasonable job because he pulls commercials, too. It does a reasonable job of replicating the broadcast experience at the time and re-engaging with that rhythm I found really intriguing. It was it was um it's it's time out of place in another or place out of time. Time out of time. One of one of those. And so I wonder if I wonder if your if your radio experience is sort of a similar thing like you you pick up on cadence and rhythms that are different.
>> Yeah, I I think so. Um what what's been most striking to me especially for coaster and I think this is very specific to coaster coast because it all media is like coast to coast now. So, you see how like you see how people have been concerned about the same things for so long. This is like a little bit darker, but I was listening to a 2007 show uh the other day and they're talking about school shootings and they were talking about how they think there's they're not going to stop. They're going to get worse. It's not just going to be in schools. Um they, you know, acknowledged that they sort of started in the workplace uh in in the late ' 80s, early 90s, >> right? Going postal, so to speak. >> Yeah. Um, and that they they and and they went through all the reasons that we, you know, we talk about uh today and it's and like how little that conversation has changed is like I kind I guess I kind of knew that already, but it's just striking to hear it.
>> Sure. Well, I mean, particularly in in that instance because the it it is so like objectively stupid the way that we allow those conditions to arise, proliferate to manifest and proliferate like it's insane.
>> Um, >> yeah, interesting. I have to I mean I I was never a coast to coast person and the friends of mine that were into it I I said you know had a tendency to at some point sort of spiral off into [ __ ] that >> I I thought was a little counterproductive let's say right like whatever that might be engaging in conspiracy theories or heavy drug use or >> um just general like disentanglement with with society but I I do think as a document as a as a point in time. It's really important.
>> What which which brings me to to a question for you, which is your live call-in show on Substack, which we alluded to at the very top of the show, is certainly not a a entirely novel or entirely unique product, but it is also like it's it's scratch is a very satisfying itch. And also I'd imagine doing this cuz I enjoy doing this. It must be fun.
>> Yeah. >> How why why did you why did you start doing that? What what was the genesis of that project?
>> Uh so I mean it it's a long road. So I had I had this podcast well so originally I had a kind of just like lifestyle podcast with a friend of mine who ended up I think she has a very like demanding public job and I don't think she like thought it out really like she can't do a podcast in that line of work >> and so she she she kind of like Irish exited the podcast but whatever I understood she was in a you know I'm a I'm a stay-at-home mom different situation than she is. So, I rebranded. I was like, "Okay, I'll just do a I'll do a podcast that's like a spin-off of what I write about." Um, and I had my my second co-host, a similar thing happened. She went into academia and it's just like it's it's so difficult to get a job in that field. It's just it's just too dicey to to to risk a podcast where you don't know what you're saying, whatever. Right. And then so so finally I was like all right what if I like reformat the whole show and then by the time I like figured out this sort of more like produced like audio documentary format. It was just like it's so much work. Uh like no one really had time to do it consistently. Um it was hard to find people who like you know it's always there's always people who are like down to do like a do something super timeconuming for like one episode and then it kind of peters out. And also like we're unfortunately at a time where like people aren't really listening to things in the same way. Um they >> as they did in co you mean or or >> Yeah. The the podcast era is you know either hibernating or over. We're in sort of a stream era. >> And I was like all right so I don't have I don't have the time to do this other version of it. >> Um it feels like this this format's kind of dead. So, I wanted to to get on the the video first um streaming kind of tip. Um but I'm not, you know, like I'm not great at uh I'm not great at like Tik Tok. Um Sure. And >> you know, I just I I I'm not I don't have the the type of charisma that's required really to be doing a a a produced video show. So, I was like, this is in my comfort zone. I could still experiment with it. It's pretty low stakes. Um, it's fun. Um, I have enough of a community where it's like even if it doesn't grow beyond my community, it's always going to be interesting. And, um, I'm paying homage to to someone who I I really love and and who's and a format of work that I'm regularly engaging with every day anyway. >> Sure. >> Um, so it's, you know, it's it's it's more of I would say like an exercise than like a serious professional operation. Um but that's that's how that's how it came to be. Just a you know a lot of bad luck and the market changing and >> my time changing >> or see in a different way good luck and you know fortuitous uh happen stance because it led you to something that is differentiated and and your own and also sustainable and fun and additive and whatever.
>> I I I like that uh I like that framing a lot better. Good. That's what I'm here for. Um, what have you what have you taken away from I mean, have you taken away anything from it in terms of interaction with your audiences or your community more widely in terms of things they want from you that you didn't expect them to or that you know veins that struck a nerve or anything like that?
>> Um, >> um, you know, I've I've I've gained a lot of interesting new people. Um, I think that I think it's so personal and like cozy and kind of nostalgic. Um, you know, and it feels that way for me too, not just, you know, I'm sure not just the listeners. Um, so there's, you know, there's been a lot of it's I feel very connected to the regulars. Um, a lot of people don't like it also. Um, you know, I've lost a lot of like of of subscribers who just it's just not for them. They And >> do you think Do you think Sorry to cut you off. Do do you think that's because of the messaging? In other words, the reminders of it and the feeling like, okay, if you want to be in this community, you have to participate.
>> No. Well, I mean, yeah, I think it I think people do actually have like Substack email fatigue and that's an element of it, but I also think like some people just don't >> like the more like parasocial element of it. It's not even like that. It's, you know, the topics are a little bit more eccentric. I think it's just like I and I also think my newsletter has become a little bit more personal um in the last 18, you know, 18 months or something. And um you know, it's it my newsletter too has gone through many different iterations, but it was always very sort of like something you could skim um you know, like just a bunch of ideas pretty much. I would call it a thought digest, you
know, and send it out every now and then. Um, and I think some people really want that, and then other people want something more parasocial. So, it's sort of like an audience shift, too.
Got it. Got it. Got it. And, and so, that all being the case, returning to the question, is there anything in particular you've been surprised about? Like, they people want, I want more wickah, or I want more, um, Chicago restaurant tips, or I want, you know what I mean? Like,
Um, been so surprising. I do think one thing is surprising is, um, people tend to call less when the topic is like really broad, but when I, when I set it to something like really specific, we get a lot of calls. Like, it would it like something that to me would would feel almost like, you know, would limit, um, but like, uh, like something like,
Is there an example?
Yeah. Yeah. Like something like "deal with the devil," right? Will get like interpreted like very literally. And then, um, you know, I, I always set these themes so you could interpret that in like a mundane kind of way, and then also a paranormal way, if you like, um, but it'll get interpreted very literally, and we'll get, so we'll get just more calls than we can take. But if I do, if it's more general,
Um, and there's more ways to interpret it, um, and there's maybe not even, there, there isn't even a literal interpretation of it, uh, there, there's, it's crickets. People don't like it.
Interesting thing. Interesting. Um, so I mean, going back then to the the premise, re there, the riches are in the niches, or whatever, like metaphorically and literally. Um, that's that's fascinating. I funny, like the "deal with the devil," that means then that the guy who is the Robert Johnson specialist calls in and goes, "Let me tell you what, let, let me, let me give you the latest on the Robert Johnson deal with the devil story type thing."
Just, just like very, just, I don't know, people interpret it very narrowly. Um, we also had like a guy who was calling in a lot who like was into like remote viewing.
Yeah, and that was like, that was really surprising. Like, I don't know where some of these people got, but I, I love that caller. Um, and it has just like these very sort of like specific stories. We had one, um, there was, there was one show where people had all these like really specific cult experiences, which was like surprising.
Um, and the other surprising thing is sometimes like, people will call in with these like very detailed like niche stories, and they're people I know, but I don't recognize them on air. And I'll find out later where it's like, I, like on the cult episode, we had someone who I'm like very familiar with, um, who's in my, uh, not even like really in my community, just sort of my, my Twitter ecosystem, who called in. And I was like, really surprised that he had had this intense experience, and that he was like willing to share it with me, and that he felt it was like helpful to him to talk about it.
Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. It's a, I mean, the extent to which these things serve as therapy for both participants and listeners is, I, I think under discussed to some degree, but yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Um, when I wanted to ask also, how you got into writing? Did you start just kind of blogging, and then that became a thing that could you could do professionally also, or was there some more determined path?
Um, sort of. Uh, I, I always kind of wrote. I mean, I, I, I don't know if I'm like the best, like essayist necessarily. Um, I went to school for playwriting and screenwriting. So that's like my, that's my like main medium. That's the medium I think I'm at least like talented enough to win awards in. That's that's my main.
Which makes you pretty talented then, probably.
I'm, I'm okay. You know, like, low tier, sort of, whatever. Anyway, so that's what I, that's what I'm trained in. Um, and then I did copywriting. I was in advertising. Um, and I worked at, uh, different tech companies. And, and one of the tech companies I worked at, I wrote, I, I ended up writing an article. Um, then I started getting invited on podcasts. Um, and I just wrote, I was invited to write more. And I think like, my, my writing is really, I mean, it's like kind of embarrassing to look back at some of my really girly stuff.
It's true for all of us.
Yeah. And then I just started to write more, and it just kind of turned into what I do.
Got it. Um, what was the article that you wrote that sort of set the ball, the boulder rolling?
Um, it was about, uh, dating apps, like not really working.
Okay, got it. Which was like weird because I was like, actually, it was really weird that I wrote that. And it was, uh, 2019. And then I was, I was on dating apps. And then like, I, like very successfully, like I, I met, I met someone. I didn't meet too many people either, you know, I like, I, I basically like met one person, married them, and we're, we're still married.
Right, fantastic. All right.
But so, so dating, dating apps don't work, except for my experience. Yeah. I, I don't know. It was just, it was just sort of like Twitter discourse at the time, and I like turned it into an article. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I actually even stand by it at this point, but, um.
Were you, were you first to the post on that one? I mean, was that, was that why it, it caught hold, or was it the way you framed it in particular?
I think, I think I was just like, I was just early. I, I mean, I've been early to like a lot of, uh, conversations. And I think, and I think the reason behind that is, if you just spend a lot of time on social media, like these are things people have been talking about for years. And there's always like a person who like announces it, right? But it's not necessarily like a new idea. Um, and if you're like aggressive about being the person to announce it, you're always early.
Got it. And so you would describe yourself, is, is that still true? Is that, do you, do you, you describe yourself as as being aggressive about wanting to
Not, you know,
Identify and announce those things?
Not in the last like six months. And I've actually like, I feel bad. Like I have so many bigger fish to fry and things to worry about right now. But like, something I actually really, I've been kicking myself is in April, like I remember this so vividly. It was like a couple of days after my, um, my son's birthday party. I kept seeing edits of this guy on TikTok, and it was clvicular. And I, okay, and he had like 10,000 or something TikTok followers. And I, I messaged him immediately. And I was like, "Can I interview you?" And then I kind of like checked back in in August, but I like, I just, I was like, "Ah, he's, who, who is this guy? Who gives a fuck?" And I just like, I just dropped the ball totally. And I could have been like first to the punch on that. Uh, but I wasn't.
I mean, dubious, dubious distinction, but certainly from a reporter standpoint, that would have been your hat.
Yeah.
For what, you know, for the type of work I'm doing, which is just like identifying weird internet things, right?
That's true. Um, but yeah, I used to be like really aggro about like coining terms and like whatever, and like being the first to say, the first to publish something, even though I'm not necessarily the first to say it.
Sure. Of course.
But now I'm just like, you know what? What is it? Who cares?
Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting, right? Like part of, part of the whole push to touch grass, you know, exist IRL, you know, brick your phone, whatever, is to me an impulse to return to just a more natural rhythm, right? It doesn't mean that any of those bits of discovery or the subcultures involved or the personalities are are any less important. It's just like, bro, we need less of this stuff so that we can more we can.
Also, what the purpose of the subcultures? Because like, you know, I've always been interested and involved in different, um, different groups and communities.
Um, but I think, you know, this has sort of been my line since I started, uh, you know, writing on this topic. The minute monetization or fame or outside attention is introduced, is is the death knell. I mean, there's certain types of outside attention that I think are fine, but I think when you start having people who are like jockeying to be the the the media ambassador for your subculture, your subculture is dead.
Yeah. I, I, it's funny. We disagree on that a little bit because I think I would push, having been somebody who, who has existed largely on the commercial side of media ecosystems and in fact subcultures generally, I, I think I think there's a, there's a level of monetization, commercialism, whatever, that is not only necessary but good.
It's when you cross a threshold and you, and when you lose the custodianship of the subculture to a sort of naked pursuit of monetization, that that it becomes a problem.
I'll backpedal a little bit. I think there's certain types, cuz you know, like, let's take something like, uh, you know, the emo scene, for example.
Sure.
Um, you know, like when, when My Chemical Romance becomes like a big act, right? We lose the sort of house shows and that partic, that particular iteration of of the emo music scene, but what we gain is a fandom. And it's, it's a different community with different people.
Um,
And the fandom could, could have only existed in the, in the way it existed if My Chemical Romance signed to a label and became this huge act.
Um, so there, I think like in a certain ways, you're, you're actually absolutely correct.
Um, but I think there's like always like a nuclear, it, it depends on also, I guess, what the scene is too.
Yeah. Well, it's, and it's funny to use the house show. So, I come from a straight edge hardcore scene in Syracuse, you know, that, that it was small and self-contained and meant a lot and had a lot to do with people getting in vans and driving hundreds, thousands of miles to go sleep on somebody's basement floor. You know, when you're, that is sustainable to a point, but then it, it becomes very selfish, I think, as a, as a, as a fan, as an audience member to expect your favorites to continue to subject themselves to misery for your benefit, right? And that's the other aspect to it, too.
I, no, I think you're totally right. I think music's interesting because it like, you, you either grow out of it, or or you, it becomes more sustainable somehow, which is, you know, quote unquote selling out.
Um, but I think you're actually, you're actually right. It depends. I think different types of subcultures have different, uh, have different needs and the life cycle of sub, you know, different music subcultures. I think you're absolutely correct.
Um, but there's, I think with like, digital ones,
Actually, you know, which is where my mind goes immediately.
Of course.
Um, but digital ones, like that's where you see the breakdown a little bit more where it's not, you're not even necessarily relying on like, like I was talking earlier about how in my childhood, anime felt rare and actually was like really good for like, uh, you know, to become more popular. And you can walk into any Barnes & Noble, right? And, you know, manga too, and you pick up whatever manga you like. And it's not, it's not difficult to access. And the things that are high barrier to entry, like knowledge and like real fandom, I mean, still high barrier to entry. It's just you could, it's so much easier to get into it now.
Um, and, you know, it's, it's up for debate whether it's better or worse, but in a lot of significant ways, it's better.
Um, but I think with like, where you're not, it's, it, it's not a fandom. It's not contingent on selling something.
Um, it, that's when I think, uh, the access, uh, that it becomes, you know, the, the access that you gain with monetization is a little bit dicey. So I think it, I think it's, it dep, it's not a one-size-fits-all thing. So I think you're right.
Yeah. Look, 100%. And, and to that end, and it, all of these things need to be approached differently, um, and treated differently. Like, we can't apply a single cultural frame to, to any of them.
Um, one. Okay. So, so as we wind down, I wanted to just also ask, because you have been first on many of these things historically, or let's say your your radar is is highly attuned. What are you paying attention to right now that like feels like it's bubbling? And I don't necessarily mean who's the next clvicular, because we don't need any more of those guys, but like, so like, is there anything that's that you're, you're looking at, you're going, wow, that's interesting.
You know, I'm like, kind of like hibernating. I think there's, there's probably things that I don't even clock myself that I'm kind of paying attention to.
Um, I would say the clo, so I'm in like a, I'm in a content winter, let's call it, and a literal.
Literal winter too.
Yeah.
But something I've noticed for like a couple of years that I think is really interesting is like, as people's interest in politics and like the discourse and arguing seems to wind down, um, at least like politics as entertainment, politics as a sport to discuss online, not politics as it, obviously we're all very concerned about politics as we live it.
Um, just from purely from like an entertainment, uh, point of view, I've noticed like people are telling more stories.
Um, and like, it's, it feels like when you scroll.
What do you mean? Wait, what does that mean? What do you, what do you mean by that?
So, so I mean it like literally, like people are telling like ghost stories. Like I've seen like an uptick in like people telling like these like really short, sort of like scary stories. So, so direct to camera, "I'm going to tell you the story of the couple and the car and the bloody hook" on TikTok. And that's going to be my.
Oh, interesting. I didn't.
And many of them are fictionally.
And not, you know, there's a lot. It's really easy to get an audience with like these spooky stories, but I think there's like different, there's different kinds.
Um, I would even say like the popularity of people reading Reddit posts out loud is a version of this.
Um, and I think like.
This is totally new to me. That's really interesting.
Yeah. And like, so I think like as the political environment becomes more fraught and how people are are experiencing it physically, um, you know, in in their their real lives, when they're looking for entertainment, like they do just want something that's a little bit lower stakes. And so like urban legends, um, Appalachian folklore seems very popular.
Um, interesting. Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting. Did you, um, did you by any chance catch the, the, the piece in Vox yesterday called "A Very Simple Explanation for Why Politics Is Broken" with no, the subhead being, or the the lead being, "Entertainment Got Too Good"?
Which I thought was, you know, like obviously is a dubious claim and dangerous, but also not untrue. And we, we, I, I had a conversation last night in which we debated this a little bit. And the one take on it was, well, but look at the entertainment industry. It's [ __ ] Clearly entertainment isn't great. And it, and my rejoiner to that was much more along your lines. It's like, yeah, but but hold on a minute, a, we, like, we didn't have people reading, you know, scary stories on TikTok. We didn't have Appalachian folk core. We didn't have all of these entertainments that have become not only, um, salient but monetizable now in a way that people can sustain doing them.
Um, and I wonder, so, I, so anyway, I guess two questions. One is, does that headline strike you as true or not? And then secondly, do you agree that this, the way that everything has become entertainment is a net positive or a net?
It's, I mean, it's a net negative.
I think it's, it's absolutely a net negative.
Um, yeah, it's, and it certainly has not been good for politics.
Um,
But I mean, I think we're coming, I think we're maybe coming out of it, just because it just, it just exhausted itself.
Um, and you, you kind of, you know, like to go back to the clvicular example, like he's not right-wing, but he's right-coded. Right. Right. Sure. So, but he's not actually like in the weeds discussing politics, whereas, you know, even like two years ago, the, the, you know, the whatever the equivalent of him two years ago would have been would have been actually discussing politics, whether or not they were informed. And I think we're exiting that thing, that that phase where it's like, are you left or right-coded?
Um, I don't know if that's better or worse.
Um, and it's more tribal, but it's like less, it potentially less like just random misinformation.
Um,
Sure.
And, uh, the, the, you know, the thirst is more for, um, entertainment that is entertainment, right? So whether you're kind of like parasoccially, like, you know, watching people go to the club and fumble, or you're listening to stories.
Um, and, you know, I think, I think what's funny is like, you know, all these tech people saying like, oh, storytellers are back. I think they're, they're actually right, but they, like, I think they just, they're incidentally right.
Um, I think like actually, like in the most like literal sense, like we're all kind of exhausted and we all kind of like long for structure and, um, you know, a ghost story with beginning, middle, and end that we can all talk about is like very, uh, very salient.
Yeah. Interesting.
All right. Well, speaking of ends, sadly, this discussion has come to an end. But, um, Cat, such a pleasure to to meet you and to get to know you a little bit.
Um, thank you for joining me on on Sik Talks.
Yeah, thanks.
Um, where, where, so your, um, newsletter is is default blog, right?
Yep.
Uh, where else should people find you? Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, elsewhere?
Default.blog. And that's, uh, everything you need.
All right. Fantastic. I love that.
Um, well, listen, everybody, thank you for tuning in.
Um, Katherine, thank you again for the time and, uh, I have conversations like this every week. So, um, at some point in the future, hopefully we can check back in and see how things are coming. In the meantime, good luck with the burgeoning family and, uh, and, and with staying warm.
All right. Thanks. You too.
You bet. Bye, everybody.