Transcription
Hey everybody, it's Mike from the Mike Whitner Show, powered by Sound Studios, brought to you by the official sponsor of the Mike Whitner Show. International Waring author member and missing, available on Amazon and paperback, and ebook coming soon. Missing, too—double the suspense, double the fun. Check it out on Amazon.
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We're here with an amazing gentleman who is a senior editor of the Classic Toy Trains magazine for 20-plus years, and a one-time LA native, now living near Milwaukee. Fascinated by Lionel trains and the creator since the beginning of time, receiving a small freight engine a while back. He has a PhD in American history at UNC Chapel Hill, written more than 20 books and special interest publications about Lionel trains, and he has a new book out presenting 100 stunning photo essays and never-before-seen images in a compelling documentary called Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains. You get to learn more about that live, ladies and gentlemen.
Plus, he is in beautiful downtown Milwaukee. The amazing senior editor of Classic Toy Trains magazine for 20-plus years, and the author of the book Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains: A Photo History of a Memorable American Icon—the multi-talented Roger Carp. Roger, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for the invitation to join you, Mike. I'm really looking forward to it.
It's great to have you on board, Roger. Sierra, LA native living near Milwaukee. Senior editor of Classic Toy Trains magazine for 20-plus years. You're fascinated by Lionel Trains and the creator since receiving a small steam freight engine as a youngster back in '56. You earned your PhD in American history at UNC Chapel Hill. You've written more than 20 books and special interest publications about Lionel trains, accessories, leaders, and the workers. You have a new book out presenting 100 stunning photo essays, never seen before, in a compelling documentary about the legendary toy maker and how they became an American icon. The book is called Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains: A Photo History of an American Icon. Before getting into all that, Roger, tell us how you first got started.
How I got started? Yes, way back—way back, Roger—way back. Got my first train set as a little boy in 1956, like probably you and so many of your listeners, and was fascinated by it. Quickly, the whole family was involved—my parents, my older sister—and that was something I never forgot. And so when I started working at Classic Toy Trains and would talk to other people about their trains, they had a similar experience—that other members of the family, maybe it was grandparents, maybe it was an older or a younger sibling, got involved—and that got me curious. And so as I looked at photographs of Lionel trains and looked at the advertisements, I found the idea of getting the family involved was central. And that's what I've really focused on in this book.
And certainly indeed, as well, too. And of course, I like to share my Lionel story—that I got one in 1975, being 11 years old. I think it was a green one. It had those metal tracks—really wide, at um, a single track there—and I think it just circled all the way around. I can't remember what specifically it was, but I think that was the most popular model, and I got hooked on those things, too. And I and I think it was highlighted by my dog trying to chase it and my cats trying to run away with it. So it's like, you know, we built it around the Christmas tree, we built it around the family room, and the thing we did was we wanted to see how fast it went, how far it went off the curb, and watching our dog chase it and our cats just run from it. So a lot of ways to enjoy Lionel trains.
Yeah. And kids have always done that. But with families involved, they were also helped to learn some great skills—carpentry, electricity—and year after year, people would expand their Lionel empire, we might say. And that was just a big part of it. And I think that's one reason more and more families got involved and enjoyed it, as well as many celebrities.
And you talk about many of the celebrities as well, too. And the one I could think of with the Lionel Trains or Lo's Lines is Rod Stewart, because in his free time when he's not recording, singing, going on tour, you see pictures of him playing with his train set. So I thought that was really cute of him—him in his pajamas playing with a train set. And Rod is only one of many celebrities your listeners might know, but Neil Young likes and enjoys Lionel Trains. In fact, he became a part owner of the company back in the 1990s. And earlier generations—Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Roy Campanella, Joe DiMaggio—just some of the celebrities that enjoyed Lionel Trains, and always with their families.
Mhm. And also made me think of some of the models as well, too. Well, there are some more popular models in certain eras as well. The only thing I think, like I said in the '70s, it was green, it was metal tracks. I think it was like, you know, had had three rods. It was metal, and I can't remember, and um, you know, maybe some of the more popular models back then. And um, what's the most popular model you've got right now?
Right now, it's still the Santa Fe Railroad's what they called a diesel, called an F3, and that has been perpetually popular. It's just a stunning model of one of the most glamorous full-size trains ever, and people love it. Uh, and again, families might travel on the real Santa Fe and then come home and want the Lionel model.
Mhm. And I notice you've got one of the books as well, too. Like if you look over your left shoulder, I see a Lionel train that's in classics. I think that's in red. So if you, for your viewers out there, it's the third, third right. And um, let me see if you can reach over, and well, maybe you can probably remember it's classic. It's a red train, and um, yeah, I kind of see that one there.
It is. I um, it's the same kind of diesel, an F3, only this was decorated for a couple of railroads in Texas, and it was a train called the Texas Special. And again, glamorous, fast, beautiful. Uh, I don't remember—I don't think there's a picture in my book, this new book, of a Texas Special—but again, families were always interested in buying the Lionel trains and enjoying their special effects. And maybe you and your listeners will remember the smoke that could come out from the smoke stack.
Yes, we had that one, too, and I was so fascinated, and the dogs are like, "What's that? What's that?" And the cats are like, "Oh no, it's on fire," and they run.
Yeah. Yeah, those little pills you'd put in the smoke stack, the whistle, the horn, and now the special effects are just out of this world—using Bluetooth and smartphones to run your trains.
Oh my gosh, that is something.
Yeah, I mean, and Lionel is celebrating its 125th anniversary this year.
Wow. It's a great American success story in business. It started small, one person who was as fascinated with electricity in around 1900 as people are today. He was sort of the Bill Gates, the Steve Jobs of that time. And of course, now we would think of them with computers. Back in 1900, people thought of Joshua Lionel Cowan the way they did Thomas Edison—a wizard with electricity.
And what was his fascination with trains and everything like that? You maybe, like, could have been planes, could maybe like the first automobile, maybe a buggy or something. And what influenced him to get into something like that, especially having like a train?
He was always fascinated by the magic of electricity and started out making a little train that would go around in a circle in a store window as a display, and customers would walk by. They were interested in buying the train, not what was being put on display. Cowan responded to that and began making trains. But very quickly he was greater as a great an entrepreneur as he was—we could say he was truly a marketing genius. And he realized that the way to sell these trains, these toys, was to reach out to adults, especially women—the mothers and grandmothers were the ones who would buy the gifts at Christmas.
Oh wow. Okay. And he created trains with and promoted them as these were toys that would help boys learn how to be productive, self-reliant men. And families appreciated that. And and so that's what—if you look in my book, you'll see so many photographs of families interacting, playing with Lionel trains, whether it's ordinary families across North America, or whether it is celebrities, say Roy Campanella, the baseball player, with his sons. Um, you would see um Count Basie, the great bandleader, with his wife. And my favorite is a shot of Nat King Cole, the singer, with his little boy.
Oh my gosh, that is so heartwarming. When you mentioned something about, you know, you know, having these trains teaching boys self-reliance, productivity, and um everything like that, was that like a need that really needed some building up, or was it like the original intention was, "Hey, maybe these guys can be employed by, you know, train companies, be like conductors, engineers, you know, or working..."
Well, engine locomotive engineers were true heroes to kids throughout the 20th century, and a lot of boys hoped to grow up, take their Lionel trains and grow up to run real-sized locomotives. But others were just learning some great basic skills. They were learning from their dads and their grandparents. And in turn, those adults were remembering what it was like to be young and playful. So it worked both ways. And Lionel played this up, and families just thought it was so important that an electric train really became a necessity, and certainly did as well, too. And of course, you know, there's more to Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains. We'll talk about some of the other books from Roger Carp, like The World's Greatest Toy Train Maker, Collectible Classics, and Collectible Lionel Classics and Lionel Trains of the 1940s, where Roger Carp gets to the mint. But first, listen to the Mike Whitner Show at mikewhitnershow.com, powered by Sonic Webb Studios. Visit online at sonicwebstudios.com for all your needs. Look at a professional website without breaking your budget. Sonic Webb Studios is the answer. Sonic Webb Studios offers fast, affordable custom web designs that blow the competition away. Call today: 1-800-303-3960. It's 1-800-303-3960, or email to support@sonicwebstudios.com. Mention the Mike Whitner Show, get 20% off your first project. Sonic Webb Studios. Take your image to the next level.
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We're here with the amazing senior editor of Classic Toy Trains magazine for 20 years, Roger Carp, on the Mike Whitner Show, with Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains. And um, before we get to some of your books and continue with Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains, um, you lived in LA for quite some time, and um you raised there. Tell us about your journey going from LA to Milwaukee.
Well, I finished high school in Los Angeles in the late '60s, which was a wonderful time to grow up in Southern California, but I wanted to see and explore different parts of the country. So I ended up in college and graduate school in the wonderful state of North Carolina. And then a job took me to Milwaukee—my first real experience with cold weather and snow. But I've really come to love Milwaukee. It just has fantastic people, great food, wonderful music, and lots and lots of trains, both full-size and, as I discovered working at Model Railroader and Classic Toy Trains magazines, a lot of great model trains. And so from that, I just became—I took my interest in American history and applied it to toy trains because toys are much more than just play things for kids. They reflect the values, the beliefs, the goals of a society, what people want their kids to become. And that was so true with Lionel Trains. And then once I started collecting photographs, I applied this, and I found that I'd look at families and you'd watch their hands. You'd watch the interaction of their eyes as they were touching these trains. They were looking at each other. I've got maybe some like the picture on the cover of my book shows a little boy with an enormous smile as he runs his train. And the first photo essay shows a dad and his little boy and the love they feel and how that Lionel Train is channeling that. I think it just comes out, which is why I've said my book is the perfect Father's Day gift. Father's Day is coming up. This is the chance to get this book and open conversations with members of your family and start talking about what toys have meant to everyone in their—were there electric trains—and just open up conversations, build the love, build the respect between the generations. I think that's so important, Mike.
Now, let me ask you this. You traveled from Los Angeles to UNC Chapel Hill to Milwaukee. Now, did you go by train by any chance?
Uh, good question. I do remember taking, long ago, a train between North Carolina and New York City to visit a relative. It was a great journey, and since then I have traveled on trains in Europe and the United States, and we have wonderful service—the Hiawatha service between Milwaukee and Chicago. So I never miss a chance to make that 90-minute journey, and certainly it's a well-worth-it journey as well. And you've got Amtrak that goes, like, from coast to coast—you know, New York to Los Angeles—and also a feature where it just takes you through 50 states, and I'm trying to remember the name of the route because we considered taking it one time, and I think that's probably like, you know, I'm just trying to think—you know how trains manage to bond families, not just like the toys but traveling as well.
There was a golden age of American passenger trains that coincided with what we consider the golden age of Lionel trains—probably from the mid-30s into the mid-60s. Uh, the trains were glamorous. They were streamlined. They were beautiful, fast to travel on. And Lionel emulated this, and they came out with just so many classic models and ingenious accessories—freight loaders, stations, signals, a lot of animation. And this captivated families, and boys and girls would go through the Lionel catalog and decide what they were going to ask Santa Claus or maybe Mom and Dad to bring them. And so every year their railroad was growing, and families were involved. I've got a great picture in my book of a family that's doing exactly that in a home not that far from here, in where I live in Milwaukee, in one of the suburbs called Whitefish Bay. And it epitomizes the fun, the planning, the productive work that a brother and a sister were doing with their dad and mom. It's just a it's a memorable photograph.
Now, now, do you have the book with you and would like to see it?
I do indeed. It's right here. Let me grab it.
Okay, great. All right. So, yeah, that's something we like to see as well, too. So don't be afraid to show it. And this is this is the cover. I hope you can see it. And it shows this little boy. I think it's just the perfect image to put on the cover because his smile is just ear to ear. He's so thrilled.
I could tell. I could tell.
Now, now, where was that one photograph you were talking about earlier as well, too? And uh, maybe you can show that to us here.
Okay. Uh, okay. This is one of my favorites—of a dad and a little boy. And and you can just see he's—the boy is so proud to have gotten this train. He got it a little bit before Christmas, maybe to pose for the photograph. But you can tell the dad is eager to play with it, too. Maybe the dad had dreamed of getting a train, but maybe the dad grew up during the Depression or had to serve in World War II and postpone those dreams. Now he has a little boy. He can make his dreams come true while getting a gift for his son that will make him seem like the greatest dad in the world. And you can also pass them down from generation to generation.
And now it's just like, you know, you know, back in the day, like I told you, too, that, you know, we have them on the floor, or sometimes we'll build a box, and some people will build them on tables and everything like that. Not now, with today's society. Do they still build Lionel trains just like that, or is it more like a more modern type and such?
Lionel again is is celebrating its 125th anniversary. Their trains are better than ever, and they are—they reproduce some of the classics from the pre-World War II and post-World War II era, but they're also making new models every year. Their catalog is thick. It's so much fun to go through. And where once household current was used with transformers, now you can run your train with Bluetooth, with your smartphone. And my six-year-old grandson, he just knows exactly what to do. He picks up the phone, he runs the train without any worry or fear. And so that's where I I credit Lionel because it's carrying on that tradition of innovation while at the same time that heritage of bringing families together. That's why Lionel is one of the great American businesses.
Now, now, maybe think of all the models that you have witnessed over the years, from the beginning of time, the most popular Santa Fe. What is considered the most expensive one you can get a hold of, and what is the most rare among Lionel trains?
The most expensive—the one that collectors and newcomers to the hobby all dream of getting—in the late '30s, Lionel spent more than $75,000, which I imagine is probably close to a million dollars now, to build a perfect scale replica of one of the most popular and powerful steam locomotives. It was running on the New York Central. It was—we identify it by its Lionel product number; we call it the 700E. And to acquire one of these is the gem of any collection. No matter what—who you are and what your preference is, I think everybody in the toy train hobby would like to have a 700E. And as far as rarity goes, the earliest Lionel models, the ones that were made probably in the 1900s, that first decade, not many of them have survived. Even fewer have survived in collectible condition, but it's uh, they are around, and a lot of people would say that's what they want.
Mhm. And of course, we talked about the two models as well. How much are they going for right now? If
Somebody's willing to purchase like what, maybe 100,000, 200,000, 500,000, a million. I mean, what's the price range that um it's going for right now?
It's like the uh equivalent to a honest wagon baseball car. It's like that thing's going up to like close to a million. My goodness.
Well, fortunately, toy trains have not reached those peaks. Uh, the 700E that I referred to, you can probably get one uh I would say between 7 and $10,000.
Oh wow. Okay. But if you wanted to get one with its original boxes that it came in, then you're going to pay another 50%. That could take you into the 10 to 15,000 range. Uh, and as far as those earliest models, I would say about the same. Again, maybe eight to $15,000. So, we're not quite up there with a '52 Mickey Mantel baseball card, but prices continue to rise. The demand is there. And and certainly did well, too.
Of course, you've been around the um the leaders of Lionel Trains, the workers, and everything like that. And you can talk about um some of your conversations and people with Lionel and um you know just maybe share a story or two about some of the leaders, workers and um everything like that in the Lionel company.
The the well I I was very fortunate uh to get started in this hobby in the business in the late 80s early 1990s, which was the last time that key executives, engineers, salesmen were still alive. I would contact them and they were gracious. They would invite me to interview them. And what the the most important thing that I learned was an a retired engineer said to me, "Roger, don't think of us as a toy company, because if that's all you think of Lionel, you'll somehow minimize our importance. We thought of ourselves as an electric appliance company. We were as good as GE or Westinghouse. We made these toys, these electric trains to last forever, to bring families joy. That's why we referred to them as an investment in happiness." And I that was so enlightening to me. Uh I so that was just a key and certainly key indeed as well too.
And you contributed um starting a publishing company called Project Roar. We'll talk more about the books including Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains with Roger Karp. You listen to the Mike Wagner show at themshow.com, powered by Sonic web studios, brought to you by official sponsor of the Mike Wagner show, International Wing author me and most missing the sweet by Serena Wagner, based the life of David including theories quiz of pings and k David songs. Check out the journey of the Sweet Sist on Amazon.com. Keyword Sweet Sist Wagner. We'll be back with the amazing Roger Karp, the author of Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains after this time out.
We're back with the amazing author Roger Karp of Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains, a photo history of an American icon here on the Mike Wagner show. As part of the project publishing company, you also have some books called The World's Greatest Toy Train Maker, also Collectible Lionel Classics, and also Lionel Trains of the 1940s. And um you know tell us about your books but most importantly tell us about your publishing company how you got started.
The the interviews that I did with Lionel employees I turned into short biographical profiles, they were great; these gentlemen were great about lending me personal photographs, some of which I've used in this new book, and that became The World's Greatest Toy Train Maker: Insiders Remember Lionel, and they so much fun. And again, they were getting their own families involved with the trains that they were making. They were so proud of what they did, whether they were designers, salesmen, and they had great stories about going on the road and uh just representing a company they knew was great.
Project Roar Publishing was started by two good friends, a father and son, which is so appropriate for this hobby, George and John Schmid. And they wanted to give back to the hobby. They wanted to publish high-quality, authoritative books about Lionel that would be amply illustrated, well written. And I was fortunate to get to know them and they asked me to serve as both an author in some cases and as the editor. And so I've had the the privilege of editing all the books that Project Roar has put out about Lionel Trains from the post-war era. Uh, and mine, Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains: A Photo History of an American Icon, is the latest, but certainly uh we've got others planned about the history of Lionel. Going to the website projectroar, that's R O A R, projectroar.com, your listeners can see and purchase the books that uh Project Roar has put out, really really great quality. And for anyone interested in Lionel trains, in toy trains in general, and just seeing the impact that Lionel had, any and all of these books are essential reading.
And certainly indeed. And besides projectroar.com, where else can we find your books and how they contact you as well? And what's your website?
That's great. Thank you for asking, Mike. Uh my books are available on Amazon as well as through Firecrown Media. Uh and that would that's firecrown.com. Uh they publish they put out Classic Toy Trains magazine. I can be reached at roger_carp@att.net. And so maybe some of your listeners have stories about their own toy trains and enjoying them with families. Maybe they have vintage photographs. Uh maybe they have a train they need help identifying. I would be glad to uh work with any of them. So, I encourage folks to reach out to me and Mike, I encourage you also. Anything I can do to help you uh enjoy some trains again.
Sounds great. And I'm I'm ready to get some. I have to probably dig through my attic, you know, just buried so deep and get a cops out there. So, and what and what's the email address again?
It's roger_carp@att.net. My book, Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains: A Photo History of an American Icon. It's packed with more than 250 rare and enjoyable black and white and color photographs. It's available on Amazon and at projectroar.com. We will certainly check that out. We're here with the amazing author Roger Karp of Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains, a photo history of an American icon here on the Mike Wagner Show.
And just a few more things, Roger, besides the things you were telling me, what else can we expect from you in 2025 and beyond?
Uh, I'm already working on a second one of these. I've got more photographs, more celebrities, more stories. So, I'm looking forward to that. I've also got uh a book working with someone on a book uh about uh some of the displays that Lionel created for department stores, hardware stores, appliance shops. I'm sure many of your listeners will remember those that those displays may have been their introduction to Lionel Trains. So, I've got that going on and just always uh doing more research. But I'm really excited about doing a second volume of Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains, and just showing more photos.
And we're certainly looking forward to as well being on board with it. And who do you consider your biggest influence in your career?
In my career. Um, I I think those Lionel employees, they trusted me. And I'll never forget one of them, a very uh hard-nosed, elderly model maker. He looked at me once and we interviewed and he said, "Roger, you know a lot about Lionel. I want to see if you can feel Lionel." And that's been my challenge, Mike, ever since. I've really wanted to feel and express my appreciation for those gentlemen that I met and just in how Lionel trains have shaped my life, inspired me, drawn me closer to family and helped me make friends all across North America and overseas and given me opportunities like this one. So, uh I hope people will feel that in my book. It's a perfect Father's Day gift, a holiday gift. I think I'm just hoping everyone will enjoy it.
And we certainly do as well. We want everybody to play with the trains as well. What's the best advice you can give to anybody at this point?
Uh, get started. Find a train, get started, share it with someone, take your time, and just have fun. They were made to bring enjoyment and they were made to to help you share and have fun with friends, family and plan for the future.
Definitely will and we want everybody to get a Lionel train with the amazing author Roger Karp of Lights, Camera, Lionel Trains, a photo history of an American icon here on the Mike Wagner show. Roger, very big thank you for your time. You've been absolutely fantastic; learned a lot. Looking forward to having you soon; keep us up to date. Keep in touch. Love having you back and watch your website. How do people contact you and what can people purchase or check out your book?
Thank you so much for the invitation, Mike. I hope to come back and talk more. And what's the website again?
It is projectroar.com. The email is roger_carp@att.net. And we want everybody to um check out and write today. Once again, Roger, a very big thanks. You've been absolutely fantastic. Looking forward to having you soon. Keep us up to date. Keep in touch. Love having you back. We wish you all the best. And Roger, you definitely have a great future ahead.
Thank you, sir. And Mike, happy Father's Day to everyone listening and to you as well.