The System Is Designed To Break You (The Truth About Content Creation) | Sam Witness

How would you change the education system?

Being sat, being told where you need to be, being quiet, raise your hand, be arriving just to talk about this one topic, whether you like it or not or you're interested in it or not. Bases like that can contribute to a lot of the lack of interest in in learning in general, being forced to learn about something you don't care about and being kind of devalued as a person for your performance on learning about something you don't care about and your lack of interest in pursuing that and the connection of that to like a lack of overall ambition or spark in a kid. Like he's kind of a bit of a drop beat.

What is the consequences and the effects on the individuals who get characterized as not being academic or special or smart or capable just because they're not interested in learning about mathematics? You didn't get an A in geography.

I talked to a lot of young people now finding themselves feeling very rejected by the system they've been a part of for their whole life when they get the opportunity of choosing more of a specific lane in university or just being out of high school. But how are you meant to pick what you love when you've spent the last 12 years doing something that you've been told to do? Where is the opportunity for discovery?

Yeah.

Sam Witness, welcome back to the show, dude. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me again. It's been a while.

So, take me what's been happening since we last spoke. When was that?

No, a year ago. Yeah. Uh, November. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, funny that I can remember it. November 17th. That's weird. Um, yeah. Whole year ago. Um, dude, so much has happened. Um yeah, 2025's been a crazy year, but uh yeah, I um went all in on media for a while. Scaled up a bit of a like a media business with my friend. Was doing that, still posting content, went away and traveled a couple times this year. Um yeah, did Europe for a bit. Had a whole kind of realization about what I wanted to do again and changed lanes again. ended up writing an ebook and um yeah, now I'm kind of going in the direction of with the book trying to essentially build a bit of a coaching system and a coaching business and trying to just help young people find their own path um in a different way than I guess how I was before.

Um so yeah, dude, it's been such a big year. Like I know it has been for you as well, but yeah, it's it's hard to kind of be like when people have asked me how's your year, I'm like [ __ ] yeah, it was a lot. Yeah, a lot happened. But yeah, I feel like we underestimate how much we're going to change still. Like especially when you go in your early 20s and you have a a mindset around trying to make big changes in your life, trying to figure out who you are. For some reason, I feel like we convince ourselves that we arriving at the destination like, "Oh, I figured out who I am and now life's just going to, you know, settle and that's that journey started."

Yeah.

But it's always new chap. There's always new layers to peel back and more experiences. And I don't know if I don't know how you feel, but I've felt in the last 3 months especially that it is like life is the journey. And that might be the biggest cliche, but when you truly feel that versus intellectually know that and you actually realize that like the thing you're doing is is the teacher and there isn't ever going to be a point of arrival where the podcast or the business is successful enough. And then life is somehow complete.

Yeah, totally, man. Like even when uh our first time we hopped on for a chat, I remember at the end of it, we talked about a 10 year kind of my 10 year version. Like what what would I tell him? And um it's funny how much has changed in what the one and a half or two years it's been since then, maybe two years. Um and yeah, I guess it's just going to continue to be a journey. M

um yeah, I've definitely realized that more recently um just with my own kind of growth like I don't know I think growth gets a lot of it's quite intangible and and hard to see from the perspective of other people and the last couple months especially when I've been going more all in on my own thing. like I've really felt a big change in myself. And it's one that I feel like it's hard to kind of maybe necessarily explain but it makes me excited for the future as well to be like [ __ ] if I keep really attacking my life and wanting to follow a really true path and keep being willing to like prove myself wrong in different ways as well and make changes when I need to like yeah the growth is kind of it's continuous.

I think when you become a content creator you grip quite tightly to the metrics because the intangibles the self-rowth is quite immeasurable and I think it's quite an period of uncertainty. So we grip quite tightly onto the followers. I know that like I still fixate and focus on those things, right? But it's like that process of coming back to what you love, why you're doing it. How's that been for you? Like your platform is in a place where I aspire to get to a lot more followers. What's that difference been like when you started out when I messaged you? You had around a thousand followers and now you know pumping past 50,000. How's that journey been?

Yeah, I you know people always mention it's so classic that the when you get to a you know certain amount of followers or or dollars or success or whatever that nothing really changes in a lot of ways and yeah I'd been told that you know as as I started growing as well and like I don't know I probably thought a lot of things would change but they haven't really. Um, it's been a really weird journey. It's been great, you know, so good. And I'm very privileged to be able to kind of reflect on it now after gaining a bit of a following and it's been very beneficial for businessy stuff and and being able to kind of walk my own path and use content and it's something I enjoy. But yeah, I uh it's been a challenge like content um yeah, I guess in a few ways like being known for something and then you're gaining a following in it. You try and figure out, oh [ __ ] where do I go with this? you know, cuz I started with rejection therapy mainly and that was kind of I was becoming the rejection therapy guy. All good problems to have, but yeah, content it it is definitely a hamster wheel regardless of how many followers you've got. Like you definitely feel that pull to be stuck on the app and to keep posting and to be checking your metrics relative to what now is your good enough.

Like, you know, especially when I was starting to slow down after like I did rejection therapy, then I was traveling. So, I was making travel content, doing interviews, it was all just popping off like easily. And then I got back home and there was this period where the account wasn't growing by a couple hundred followers a day or I wasn't hitting 20K every maybe more like 10K. And it's so like, you know, me 3 months ago before that would have been like that's your problem that you're having. But it's funny how that was still like affecting my kind of worth a bit of like how good my stuff was. So yeah, there's a challenge to figure out mentally like that kind of getting your worth not out of the algorithm and the views and the things that you can't see and more. So just like remembering to show up authentically or like why you wanted to post in the first place.

It's uh the social media is a weird space.

How would you separate the creator version of you versus the real Sam Witness? Like a lot of your content has been just a reflection, a raw takes of what you're going through. Do you find that there's a difference between how you think about your social media self versus who you actually are?

Not a huge difference. I think when I was doing rejection therapy and I was starting to become someone who was known for a very specific thing and that was getting hard as well and I was wondering, should I keep showing up and doing this thing when I don't know if I really want to anymore? there was definitely the chance to kind of go in a direction which was becoming less and less me. But I think the cool thing about my focus from the whole time was like just share my journey. So I think the more the further I got along with it and I I think the more I reflected on how do I want to like be on social media and like help people and be real, I uh I kept figuring out or learning that how important it was to like show up as myself. So now I like I feel really lucky where I use my Instagram pretty confidently as like myself. Um and so then the difference doesn't feel that major. Like it's it's quite nice when if someone comes up to me and says like you use Sam Witness and I can I don't know to have a conversation right there like kind of just as person I am and like and talk and the things that they have enjoyed seeing or why they follow me is like reasons that I should be proud of or happy about as well like um and or they followed me because of my journey which is the one that I am going on like it's aligned and it's the same thing um yeah, which is really nice feeling uh I guess you can go on social media and post about whatever you want and it doesn't have to be something very authentic if you don't want it to. If you want to go in a really, you know, forceful direction towards the algorithm as well um to get attention, it's probably not the fastest way to get there potentially. Um so yeah, it's nice to I feel like it's pretty much the same version of me to to the amount that I let get seen, I suppose. Yeah,

it's almost a pretty good litmus test for your authenticity. How do you feel when someone recognizes you for your content in the public space? Like is there that [ __ ] I need? Oh [ __ ] Like who who do I have to perform? What do I have to remember about who I've been online? And how do I have to copy that? Whereas if you are just being yourself and expressing whatever you want to do. But it's so fascinating that concept as well because a lot of people create content for very different purposes. If you're going back to day one of your content creation journey, what would you tell yourself? How would you think differently about making content?

I don't know. I Yeah, I mean, from the start, I was quite consistent and I just kept showing up and I'm really glad I did. Um, I I think I would just tell him just to stay on that train and show up authentically and just to keep showing up authentically and as best you can and as consistently as you can because yeah, I started on YouTube making vlogs. Um, just sharing from like when I dropped out of uni and I I did I think 70 vlogs in a row weekly. So over a year long streak of weekly vlogs and only probably halfway through that was when I think I started doing rejection therapy on Instagram and like really committing I'd been like cool I'm going to show up and really go for this and uh but there was a good you know I think probably 25 weeks at the start of like couple hundred views on each YouTube video tops maybe or like 200 views and um started posting on Instagram and getting not nothing really back, you know, still hitting people and have you but just not not not that viral feeling or anything like that or being known as like a real creator with you know over 5,000 followers or whatever you deem being a you know influencer or whatever. Um and I I think uh I'm just really glad I just continued. Um, but there were plenty of times where I was so close to giving up. I had a few vlogs which were like 2 minutes long where I just press record and was like I've had a pretty ordinary week. um just haven't wanted to film anything and I've been trying to grow my freelance work and I haven't really grown it and uh yeah, see you next week kind of vibe and I'm really glad I did that. Um, and if you but so like if you combine the consistency with still showing up authentically, I think that's important because if you have a daily posting goal, but you're not you're just trying to feed the algorithm or or not necessarily still show up as yourself, then you can get caught in that hamster wheel without maybe a lot of like meaning attached to why.

Hard one because you know I've talked about this before like the the duality of like showing up authentically and then playing to the algorithm still to have your things be put in front of the eyeballs you want to see it in the first place. You have to in some regard, you know, engage people, right? If they're ever going to see your meaningful message and that combination um is really hard. Do you think hitting the algorithm does require a compromise of authenticity?

If your most authentic self is to like have be is very unengaging, then I suppose like I think there's there's a there's a place where you can find your middle ground. Yeah. But I think it might cost a little bit of it. Yeah. Well, it's like how how do you convey your message? Like what in what ways can you still be authentic? um but choose to share it in this way with this way visually or through this format so people can see it. You know, and that trade-off could be worth it because then if if if your message, which is still authentically yours, but you've had to package it in a different way, can now reach 100,000 people versus you sharing it in the way that you initially were going to. still very authentic obviously, but it doesn't reach more than a couple people, then I think that trade-off's worth it to impact people in a in a good way and impact more. But again, there like that's such a huge gray area like between what is and and only maybe you can know like is that still really authentic or have I compromised authenticity there? What does it mean if I'm authentic and not authentic? Because we can also I think what happens with a lot of people um from an observation point of view like when you're getting rewarded from the algorithm for posting intentionally polarizing things, right? Like it reinforces the part of our psyche that wants to keep replicating content like that. Um and sometimes, you know, I think a lot of opinions and beliefs are polarizing, right? Like just think of like a a normal distribution of opinion. Like there's so there's going to be such a variety of opinions. And I think thinking about a lot of people do have at least one belief on a bell curve that is at the extreme. And when you showcase that one belief, there's probably going to be the 90% of people who don't believe as extreme. That's probably going to grab their attention. So I think social media is just full of the extremes on both ends of the bell curve for various different topics.

Yeah. That's that's what you're going to see, right? Like the most most of the things you will see on your feed are going to be the viral bits of content and they're going to be the most emotionally pulling for them to be the bits that you will keep your eyes on your screen and watch longer. So, you know, and interact with so reaches more people, goes more viral. Those bits of content are going to be pulling emotions, you know, and um I guess that's the the brutal thing about we can talk about more of this, but like the way that short form content is and how man, you know, you hop on the app and you are going on a roller coaster from absolute joy from a beautiful story to seeing something horrible that or then seeing something that really makes you mad and pisses you off and you hop in the comment section and there's a war. Then you go to another video which is a nice satisfying video which keeps you watching for a good dopamine hit. And man, like what a what a drug. It gets talked about so much, right? But you can experience a lifetime in 60 seconds of Instagram.

Yeah, it can it can wipe you out for the the day. You can hop in bed and scroll for an hour and you do not feel more more rested from that experience. Um, yeah. I think the thing I've been thinking about more recently, I guess a lot about social media and and not with any magic pill solution to any of it, but like just how Yeah. Ju I think the more time I've spent recently not posting as much on Insta and focusing on other things. I've come back to it with a bit of a fresher look at it and going, "What the [ __ ] are we doing on here?" Like, you know, and I still think when I post it, I'm trying to post something meaningful, but there's just so much so much [ __ ] out there and and you hop on the app and man, you are you do go on such a ride that that is so can be so draining, but we're all we're all doing it and a lot of us are contributing to it and um it's hard to look for what the way out is. You know, you can you can get brick or these screen time blockers and things. It's like a bit of a treatment, but I wonder what the kind of more preventative approach is that could be adopted.

No.

Have you read 1984?

No.

From George Orwell.

Uh, so heavily recommend reading that. It's it's telling a story of like a dystopian future and a lot of the themes that are in the book are sort of being replicated now. Like very sort of scary, dude. But and I read that in in high school. Um, but in one of the lines I thought was fascinating that sort of relates to content is in a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. And a lot of the book is about like they hide true information and the the media or the forgot what they were called, but the people who run society in this time, they have a ban on information. I think we're living in an era now that people are so scared to speak their mind that it's become almost revolutionary that someone would say I disagree with these progressive ideologies that are getting pushed and it's like I don't know how you felt but sometimes I actually agree with some people's opinions that are getting posted but I almost get like icked out myself because I'm I'm so aware of the social messaging and how politically correct social media has become.

Yeah, I guess. And it it pulls again at like it almost feels like you are in the center of a grand stand with all these opinions screaming at you and especially if you're the one posting it or it's just a space with so many eyeballs going, you know, in this place where you can so quickly be ostracized so immensely, you know, for thousands of people or you can join one side and be feel like you have the backing of thousands and thousands of people for your idea. like that is such a rush and um yeah, it makes it incredibly scary. It it can feel like you're in the middle of an arena with all these people barking from either side, you know, like a digital kind of digital warfare almost with with opinions.

It's also the reason that Yeah, it's so gripping, right? Pulls you in.

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think a lot of people should probably reflect on why they use social media. Like even I like if I wasn't aspiring so hard to make content. Like to be honest I spend most my time creating like I'm a small consumer of content. Like I love creating and talking and exploring ideas. This is why I have the podcast. But I'm like there's such a part of me that's like trying to grow this thing and I'm fixated on okay how can I make better hooks? Getting an editor in. How can I package up a one to two hour conversation into a short clip when I know like through so many my episodes that they're so valuable and you know some of these conversations are life-changing for people to become aware of this information but there's like this like need to perform and win this game of short form packaging.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Yeah. And that's but that's the thing, right? Like if you you know that you're quote unquote playing that game in order to ideally move people towards your podcast, which is a long form piece of content you find really valuable and you know has helped a lot of people before and you you know you think the episodes are going to be you know really good for people. Yeah. And it's not to throw shadow on the way other people even do their content. Like I I've done man I've done rejection therapy that was that would take people on a ride emotionally and you know holding out what's going to happen this video it resonated really positively with people for sure but you know even like the news re I've had that's caused it's done really well probably because you know it's a polarizing message you know on a news platform and there's an opportunity to talk for against an idea um I think it's good to know that you know if you are playing that game with the intention of moving people towards something you really care Even if the short form side you're not, it doesn't set your heart on fire to to try and come up with hooks for your things when you know that there's more to it than just a 10-second clip of your podcast. You know, it's deeper than that. Um, I think that's still that is a maybe a nice thing to know at least when you are playing that game that if you're ultimately trying to direct them to something that you find really meaningful that you want to share with the world then social media is the best way to get it to as many people as possible.

Right?

So yeah, I think there's just I don't know there's reasons for and against all every part of it and and I'm I'm as guilty as anyone. I'm I'm a lovely hypocrite in a lot of senses with with social media, but I also do think that I'm I'm trying to be someone who at least can make people feel more relaxed when you hop on there. You just feel like, "Okay, cool. I can maybe use this as a time to take a breath and feel good instead of like charged with all these emotions and and fears." And

yeah,

it's interesting one. Like I feel like over my journey, I've like tried to niche down too hard at times and people say to niche down. was watching a real from Chris Williamson saying, "Why do you need to niche down? You're an interesting, diverse individual if you want to express all of your opinions and you're going to attract in people who resonate with those unique things." And it's like, I don't know. I felt a long period of my time it was like, okay, Jack and I joke about this, but went through that like mental health era, which was all like, oh, promoting awareness around mental health. Um, and then now I feel like I'm actually being really introspective about what conversations do I find interesting. How can I, you know, I'm I'm pretty aware who who who would I have an interesting conversation with? And the metric for just a podcast, I'm like, if this podcast couldn't be released, would I still have the conversation anyway? And for a lot of these people that I'm got on, it's like yes. And um I don't know, it's an interesting one. And I think we change a lot as you go through the the journey. But I just think if what if there's no having an intention behind content is useful. Otherwise, you're not living it's not living. Like I if I didn't have a podcast, I don't know how much if I would be active at all on Instagram.

Um because I'm This is the thing that people misunderstand about content creators. Like I'm a very introverted guy. I'm I'm more of a shy guy and people think because I have a podcast I might be this extroverted Jack Mintosh sort of guy. I'm that's not me. And the reason I love this is because I was sort of depraved of these the deep understanding of my peers when I was growing up. I was I felt like I was an outcast. So I love connecting with people on a deeper level, exploring some of the most interesting conversations. And I don't know, it's funny cuz I think a lot of people who create content, there's this like misperception that they're always this confident, happy, happy, go-lucky, outgoing people. But so far from the truth.

Totally. Yeah, man.

Referring back before about being consistent. I think the problem with creating content, even when we have the the outcome goal is right, like we're so fixated on the the outcome and the metrics instead of creating it for its pure love. Um, I'll read you this quote from Andy Warhol,

please.

He says, "Don't think about making art. Just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. while they are deciding, make even more art."

How true.

Yeah. So cool. And it comes back to having like a big why behind why you're posting in the first place, right? Like for the love of sharing some message you really care about or using it as the the place for promotion for something that you really want to see grow or that you want to bring to the world. Yeah. And um yeah, if if you're if you're coming from that place of kind of play in a way as well and just share and being the metaphorically almost the kid in the sandbox just creating things and exploring and wanting to just share that with the world. Um I guess that's a part of art, right? Like to to really make something truly art, you probably need to put it out in front of other people to have them to feel whatever you were feeling when you wanted to create that thing and share it. And um what a so what a beautiful place social media can be to do that.

Um and and what a sustainable way to to make content if you're making something you really love and care about. Of course you're going to keep going. You know that's this is your way of sharing sharing the thing you love to the world.

What an incredible platform to do that.

You know anyone can then see the thing that you think is incredible and that you you have a real deep feeling attached to. They can judge it. They can criticize it. They can also be completely moved or changed by it. Um, and you have a place where you can if you have the courage to like meaningfully share something that you deeply care about to the rest of the planet.

Um, which is beautiful. So, yeah, there's a there's such a reason to still be someone who wants to create content. It's just such a um it's in such an interesting place.

It is cuz it's quite like there's a there's a direction that social media is heading. But I think I think you're never going to go wrong being truly yourself. And sometimes you do have to be inauthentic to realize what is authentic. Like I've posted so much content before I reflect back on it and I go, "Yeah, I did this now because of this other reason." Like now looking back, I have this perspective over time and it's like, okay, but that's that's fasttracked my growth. The willingness to put myself out there. I was the feedback loop from social media is so quick but it's really easy as well. You have to dis like dismant not dismantle but like disconnect yourself from the outcomes as well because like as you're putting more content out and it goes well you start to go you start the cognitive dissonance arises right and you start going oh that maybe that that is my authentic self because the inter because you want to succeed you you have this thought or belief like I want to be successful and then you have the outcome of a video becoming successful so that whatever piece of content is successful you start attributing to being authentic because you want to be aligned inside. You want everything to fit in this nice little box and we that's where we trap ourselves through the reward.

Um, yeah, what what a what a weird environment it really is. Like what other time in history could you be expressing something and getting such crazy instant response from billions of people who can see what you're putting out there like that as well. Um, and a weird one to kind of figure out and deal with in your head. really interesting point about the things that do well being like, "Yeah, maybe that is like, yeah, damn, I I love rejection therapy." Like just thinking about how I kind of was probably playing that. That was going to be a 30-day challenge. I did it for not a whole lot longer, but you know, 35 days. I was on a run there. I was, you know, I I started really burning out from it and that's why I stopped. And it was while I was traveling. It was just chaos. But, you know, if it wasn't performing very well, I probably would have been h rejection therapy. Just don't know why I even gave that a shot. But it was, you know, I think I definitely would have convinced myself a bit that that was like there was something real there. And I think there is, but um yeah, just it's an incredibly interesting space and and where it's at right now. probably probably perpetually I guess with social media it's like a I was just say saying this on my vlog the other day like a bit of a car with bold tires and a dodgy steering wheel just full throttle brick on the accelerator and you just don't know exactly what's going to happen and it's continuing to to go um yeah and I wonder where things are going with AI you know and everyone's talking about that but um I don't know I don't know where that's going to go Um, I'm curious to it's an incredible opportunity for people who are authentic and real to hop on a platform and be real because you you you will stand out now better than any other time in being truly yourself online, but you have to be the person who has the courage to go first or go on your own and do that and step out into a lot of eyeballs and be like, "This is me."

And um, yeah,

it's a quote from Hormosi. If you want to be exceptional, you have to be the exception.

Yeah.

It's thinking back, imagine thousands of years ago when these philosophers would gather up in the center of the town and debate these ideas and now we're getting our deepest ideological beliefs tested like 20 30 times a day. Think about from the primal aspect of our brain like deep into the fear center, our amygdala. Like every time we open up a belief and someone is saying something that maybe we don't agree with, like that's activating the stress response in our brain because it equates with this person doesn't agree with me. This person could kill me, so I need to be aware. So it triggers us and yeah, we're just constantly getting triggered. Um, and it's weird. There's like there's the two aspects to that, right? Like sometimes people trigger us because we have like a our own deep fears or subconscious beliefs. But then there's also the more primal aspect of like if someone fundamentally sees the world differently. They're probably we perceive them to be a part of a different tribe which would actually make them an enemy by default in our primal years. So it's so understandable from that lens why it can stress us and make us anxious. But I don't think our brains are have caught up. They're lagging behind the technology in our modern world. And as you can see, mental health is suffering as a result.

Yeah. How fast is everything moving on social media as well?

Yeah, totally. I couldn't couldn't help but agree more. Um, sometimes with with conversations around social media, I just don't exactly know where to go in a way because you go, "Yeah, a lot of it is cooked." And then probably go home and think about the next reel I'm going to post. It's it's a paradox and I think you got to be able to hold these simultaneous truths like on one hand it means nothing and on the other hand it's an expression of our greatest truth which is deeply meaningful.

Can we have both of those exist at the same time?

Yeah. Could could I think the place you want to get to let's just take away the financial aspect of it um in terms of you know some people would have reliance on their Instagram for income. Sure. If your social media was deleted all night overnight could you be okay? Could you be okay to never go on it again? Let's just say you were given the same amount of money. Forget the business. Would you be okay? And I'd say a lot of people would really really struggle to know because they live through their social media um and they're so identified not just from the habit of showing up but like of being interested in other people's lives because they don't want to maybe look at their own lives cuz maybe they're not they're living vicariously through like why do you think we look up to so many people on social media? Because we're vicariously living our dreams through other people. Yep. Maybe not the most accurate. Maybe it is like a good um you know comparison like if you took away smoking from every smoker who is half a pack a day or more uh today. No more cigarettes ever again. How how would they go? Yeah, that would be healthier right in theory long term I suppose. But how would that how those first that first week be?

Um incredibly challenging. And I think it would be the same for people with social media. Yeah, that initial like whiplash of coming off what you get uh from the drug of uh social media like losing that going into that dip before you come back up probably would be drastic for a lot of people probably a good good one to think about well why not do a detox

even recently I've been thinking about doing like seven days of no social media um aside from like my ad account still running and business stuff being live like just not going on there at all and just trying to continue to like if I share and talk about these things like make sure I lead by example with them as well and happily be the one that goes first in ways and tries to experiment and and share what it's like. Um it almost seems funny to talk about oh yeah like that's a big challenge deleting an app off your phone.

Um I think for most people man it' be an incredible challenge. It's become so imshed, right? Like it's hard to split the difference, but yeah, I don't want to. Anyways, I don't want to talk more about getting people off their phones. I need people to listen to my podcast and consume my content.

Anyways, let's change tacked up.

How would you change the education system?

God, in a lot of ways, I don't know. In a lot of ways, when I have ideas about things that can change, there's instantly an issue that that arises.

What's an example of that?

You know, I I I think with a with a curriculum or or especially even in a physical school sense, being sat and being told where you need to be, being quiet, raise your hand when you want to share an idea. Um be arriving just to talk about this one topic, whether you like it or not, or you're interested in it or not. Um, you know, in one sense, I I think that is I think like spaces like that can contribute to a lot of the lack of interest in in learning in general, being being forced to learn about something you don't care about and being kind of devalued as a person for your performance on learning about something you don't care about and your lack of interest in pursuing that and the connection of that to like a lack of overall ambition or spark in a kid being like he's kind of a bit of a drop beat for not

That's so bit of mass and um but again man I like I I've got thoughts like that with it which you know and people that's not a a new thing right but then I just think back though too like when I was growing up like I was very academic so I was always pedestaled for like my drive my intellect and like that I always had that sort of pride of like oh yeah I'm the hard worker and I'm like all these other people want to work hard and do other stuff but just not reading books and learning about the stuff I love. And and I think what is the consequences and the effects on the individuals who get characterized as not being academic or special or smart or capable just because they're not interested in learning about mathematics? You didn't get an A in geography or, you know, Yeah. or in a specific a very specific field on a school curriculum. Um, yeah, in ways I find that pretty tragic. I talk to a lot of young people now um through my book and and people who are finding themselves feeling very rejected by the system they've been a part of for their whole life when they get the opportunity of choosing more of a specific lane with university or just being out of high school. And um but how are you meant to pick what you love when you've spent the last 12 years doing something that you've been told to do? Where is the opportunity for discovery?

Yeah. The uh I was reading a book recently um uh what's called the autobiography of a yogi. um beautiful book about um this guy um from India called I think Yoga Nandanda um probably butchered that but um and he his journey is trying to in the I think the 40s or early 1900s um trying to take spirituality and the lessons that he'd learned to the west to America and um he talks about his dreams of schools where people just learn freely about their interests and they exp and and how people would actively be seeking that education as a young person when their curiosity can be explored and uh to to not you know and but again there's there's ways that the school goes well yeah but you can choose your subjects and we have co-curricular things and you know after school you can do these things uh outside of school hours or you know we'll let you choose your little specific lane in biology but uh I don't know if that's enough for people you know how many people hop out of high school and go what the [ __ ] am I going to do next. Um, and don't feel like anything is for them and but don't feel like anything is for them and then have no idea what they're going to do instead to have a career and be able to get the house and be married and fit in and survive financially and be happy. You know, there's that like I feel rejected by this place, but what am I going to do instead? Which is like such a hopeless place to get lost in feel.

I was talking about this um almost this analogy or metaphor to describe it right this could link into like the title like the third path but it's like it's almost like let's say we have our own unique life journey our dharma our biggest mission in life like our authentic path let's just visualize like you're going down this path and something that's meant for you and then there's the identity of you like what people perceive of you who you think you are it's like this other lane right now instead of going to our lane the reason we get so distracted in the other lane is like there's all of these signposts around that lane from society. It's telling us it's like got all the warning signs about going into our own lane. It's got all the signpost saying like success is down the highway. It's 100 kilometers away. Just you've got to do this and there's all these little markers along the social path and our path is foggy. There's you you can't really see past the next step. There's a road map on the other one. Our path is, you know, it's got freedom in the sense that like you the other path you've got to there's an clear expectation of what you've got to do. You've got to get the wife, the kids, the house, the safe job. The other one's got freedom, but it's got in certainty. Uncertainty. And that's what's that quote you have on your wall. It's it's probably my favorite quote of yours.

The price of freedom is uncertainty.

I mean, it's it's obviously quite simple, but it's the most powerful reminder of if you want freedom, you have to go through uncertainty. That's the Yeah. the price that you pay for that like and and in the in my book I talk about like uh that traditional path being kind of like a tunnel where the walls almost built up of like expectations and pressures and it's keeping you going in one direction with a promise of that tunnel opening up at some point through some light and a vast beautiful field which you know everything's kind of there for you. And then the the kind of third path being like breaking through those tunnel walls of those expectations and there's this incredibly vast open field out in front of you. You can go in any direction you want. Uh and there's just kind of these little trails kind of beginning to lead off into unknown, you know, and the people that are willing to walk in that are the people that are willing to face uncertainty. And and and I I've been thinking a lot about the difference between clarity and and certainty. um being I think a lot of us uh see if I cook it or not. um see uh clarity and certainty being the same thing when there's a great difference where hoping that the clarity will have is like the certainty of seeing into the future and knowing what's going to come next and wanting to have this view over everything when in reality um especially if you're going to walk your own path or even in general in life like really the certainty you have about what's going to happen next is you know really you can you can try and pretend and hope and and try and plan as best as you can for the future But especially if you're going to walk your own path, you're realistically the pretty much the whole way through probably going to be able to see 5 m in front of you into the fog. But to be able to still have uh sorry, and that being about uncertainty and not knowing what's coming next, but to still have some clarity around like this is enough. This is my journey and I'm choosing to walk this path. Um, don't know if they

I love that because I think I think we do confuse the two because I think because the safe and predictable path that we've been sold has clear actionable steps and a timeline and a road map, we think that that's going to that gives us clarity and confidence about our

Happiness and fulfillment, right? Whereas yes, it's it's certain that you know if you get this amount of money doing this amount of job, you're going to have these things. There is certainty over what you're going to have. You're going to have this house. You're going you're going to find a partner. You're going to find a job and be secure.

But it's not going to give you the clarity on being the person who is going to be happy in those situations and those circumstances. And that's the problem is we're gu we're so fixated on being attached to having things rather than who we're going to be and what we're going to feel like. This is the problem with our visual system. We're so fixated on what it's going to look like on Instagram when we can promote a version of ourselves that we don't even know if we like because we haven't spent enough time to figure out who that actually is.

>> Yeah. But you'd rather the the discomfort of that than the the discomfort of having to explore and and face the fact that you don't really know who you are yet or what you love. How much safer may you feel if you can be somewhere you are patted on the back uh for just choosing a particular path and can you can you deal with that discomfort of like hiding and pushing away knowing that this might not be your realest version of yourself in order to instead have that certainty about what's coming next. and being able to identify with a specific role uh in your career. Um I think that is encouraged you know instead I think that that provides a a feeling of security um you know which can be taken away from you as well you know with your your workplace and and where you are but that latching on for that feeling of security >> um when uncertainty can be so so scary and it is you know but I also think that means that going on that journey to to looking for your own freedom and discovering the deepest parts of yourself um and facing uncertainty is like just the most incredible path to take in learning about the deepest parts of yourself and facing um those wounds and those deeper parts of of who you are that haven't been explored yet.

>> Stepping out on your own path and just exploring, you know, even even in a sense of like if you're just choosing to take a gap year >> just to travel and try and figure out who it is that you are. um already the action of doing that is very you know it's a vast field already in in a sense of like well I'm I want to find what I really love and I've got a year I don't know I don't know where to start you know I think I might try content that like this is just basically what I did like I try content I love videography and I want to travel like that being in a space like that is uncomfortable and scary um but but that is a place for incredible growth >> which isn't that tangible which doesn't come off as letters after your name or a bullet point on your CV. And I guess that's the the choice that people have to make, you know, as a young person. Well, sure, I know that there's great growth I can have from traveling and and uh learning about myself and quote unquote finding myself, but I I can't really see what that even looks like. I don't know if I'm even going to get there. And the other choice is, you know, I stick it out for one more year and I I get that or I I stick to this path and I will get that piece of paper and, you know, like that is accepted and my family's going to really applaud me for that. I can get a role. I can get a job >> and I I don't blame people for >> feeling that huge pull to to go down that path.

>> I think you're going to truly discover who you are or peel back the layers when you go through experiences. And I think we have in this era of experience bypassing where we don't want to immerse ourselves in the uncertainty. So we we we remove ourselves from situations like experiences where we're going to fail. We're going to be messy. We're going to [ __ ] it up and we're going to be like, "Yeah, I that that was that was a mistake." I, man, I've made a lot of mistakes already. Like I think back, man, like I lost $30,000 over two years with a gambling addiction. I have been very toxic in relationships. I've been so self-centered. I've made mistakes. I used to be heavily addicted to porn. All these things, man, if without that through the last 5 years, I wouldn't be closer to like what I truly value. Like, you need the contrast of the pain, the suffering, the difficult emotions. And every single person I've interviewed who has gone through [ __ ] in has learned something about themselves that they love in themselves. And this is the problem. We're not willing to sign up to that. And I think it's cliche, but sign yourself up for suffering. I do think the caveat to that is try you can do a little bit of prep work to figure out to make sure it's directionally correct. So, for example, with a podcast, like, you know, I'm a lot of episodes in. I know it's the thing I want to to be for my life. I want to make this something. So, going on a Melbourne tour, like paying for that all myself, going on the experience of bringing my gear over, like that I know that that's directionally correct. I don't know what that experience is going to give me. I don't know what I'm going to learn. I don't know, you know, it doesn't promise that it's going to make the podcast big overnight. It doesn't promise anything, but I know it's directionally correct with what I love. And I know that there's a thread of excitement that pulls me. You fail, you grow, you get better. And it's a cliche, but I think that is a simple recipe for becoming more of yourself.

>> Yeah. And an incredible journey, right? Um and uh yeah, I talk about uh action creates clarity, not the other way around. And uh by being willing to take aligned action based on a even you know at the start especially like it's going to be based on a feeling you've got about about an interest >> having the balls to to still act on that even when it's not wildly accepted. You know change it's been told to me before that that real change is when something is rejected far more than it's accepted. and to be someone that's willing to embark on that change and know that it has to happen every day or in every moment where you can choose one thing over the other to choose to take action in an aligned direction. And even the process of just trying to figure out what is an aligned action like what is it that I really care about? and asking yourself that question when you have two different choices. A chance to travel or a chance to do something different or try some other course or experience versus the one that you you've been heavily encouraged to do by your family or whatever it is to even just sit in that moment and really think about like which one is me and which one do I I think is a bit more me than the other one. Maybe it's as good as that. um taking those aligned actions. It's a lot easier said than done and it can be very scary, but that is the fastest road to the clarity that I think a lot of people are looking for.

>> I think uh you might miss out on that when you don't have the the courage to even consider the things that you might really care about in your life that may not be accepted by other people. >> It might not be accepted by the friend group you've grown up with. Might not be the same thing. um that that already is like just an incredible place to grow. And and again, like in a in a pretty a way that when one of those old school friends ask, "How you doing? What what's been going on?" You might be like, "I don't even know how I'm going to explain it to you, but I've I've really grown a lot this year." And I might be like, "Cool." Like, "What do you what internship did you get?" like there's a real difference there in grow. What what is growth and and what is the thing that has really changed you here versus what's going to look good uh career standpoint or what's going to be more accepted by those friends.

>> I find something that's been quite useful for me to to help figure out why I believe something in the first place. And I think if I could give any advice even to my younger self and this is what I did so I'm fortunate is like become a professional question asker like the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your questions and that's a D. Martini quote but it's like our life is determined by actions right but with actions we we make a decision to take that action so decisions usually we have two choices and what informs the decisions that we have is the perceptions that we have in our brain as well. So then when you go into the brain we have these perceptions and these perceptions are often automatic and they come from these beliefs and then we can bring back the origins of these beliefs to experiences that we went through when we were younger. Like what were we constantly told about deviating from the path? Like I have parents that are business owners and gone against the grain, believed in things that are against the mainstream. And that's reflected in my journey. So if if something feels off, trace it back to your journey. Like there isn't there's no such thing as a coincidence in your life. Oh, I just got stuck in my job. It's like no, there's a reason that your brain and your mind and who you are has played your life has played out a certain way. Like it can be a systematic, logical process to peel back the layers and go, "Okay, when did I get this job? What have my parents been telling me when I've grown up? What what have my friends been saying? Like what do I think success looks like?" If you start asking these questions, it's actually easier than you think to get a bit of a road map on why your life has played out. Because I think a lot of the shame comes from I don't feel good in my life. There's so much misalignment and it's my fault. You're actually sometimes way less in control of your life than you realize. Like when you're zero to seven, like that's when your subconscious mind is being developed. You don't have influence over your environment. 95% of your actions every single day from the subconscious mind. And between 0 and 7, you don't even have a conscious thinking logical mind. So when you think about it like that, it a lot of these things aren't your fault. But now you're an adult. You have a brain who can you can have a mind that can have thoughts. You can question things. you can go back to experiences and change the way that you view them. You have that in your control. And I think we don't use that tool enough. We get used by the tool, the brain. So that's what I've done to change my life.

>> Yeah, dude. You said that really, really, really well. I look forward to listening back to that later. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And um yeah, just about those questions that you're willing to ask yourself, you know, willing to look for the answer on when that question might really bring a bit of fear or that question is a really hard one to ask. like uh what are the things that I stopped doing during maybe high school that I really loved because I was too scared what about what people would think about me for doing those things. I used to make YouTube videos and now we're doing it.

>> Yeah, dude. I would solve Rubik's cubes um and started YouTube account. >> It grew it to 300 subs in three years or something. And uh yeah and I I think that was a huge factor for me was like when I was in the pit of like doing uni, I'd done a gap a gap semester working away and I loved it. Best time of my life. I made some money from it by working and did a bit of travel and like then I was like sick. That was great. What am I going to do now? Rolled back into a business degree and I was just like really low, man. Just it just felt very meaningless. Like where's my future going? And I feel like I could kind of see it. And that was scarier than not being able to see the potential of one that I was much more excited by. And um when I kind of had that realization about, man, I used to love making videos. Like am I not going to try that again? Like and then I was thinking about oh what about film school? And I was like, man, I think I just need to go and [ __ ] do it. And um yeah, I'm just so glad I did. You know, if I didn't uh ask that question, I have the courage to like answer it truthfully about what what my heart was probably telling me in that moment, which I had pushed down for the last 5 years or whatever since I stopped making videos or seven years.

>> Thank God I had the balls to like at least be like, damn, man, that like used to really care about that. Like, yeah, of course, like making YouTube content, who knows where that's going to go. Most people will stop making videos after a few months or it won't go anywhere, right? and I'll give up and I'll go back and you that might be what you end up doing >> but man you just got to give it I had to give it a go >> and I just made that decision to be like I think this is going to have to be the biggest year of [ __ ] around and finding out and selfexloration and bit of fear facing that I could have and like that was I mean I think this year was even harder but that first year that's what the >> that's what it was for me like setting a timeline of yeah 18 months I think I'd said like till the end of 2024 for to just not be at uni and try and make this work. And um it's so funny how it's completely zigzagged in a million directions since that initial thought. But yeah, I'm just glad that I chose to like try and answer that question. I guess

>> something about like when you go on the journey of content creation, like everyone's journey is going to be so unique, right? Like I started creating content before you. Your content's blown up. And I think a lot of people see other people's success, right? and they internalize that so much. Um, and I think it's that that fine balance of like, you know, people are going to go viral for different reasons. And also, it's that fine balance of like, okay, can I find some improvements? Cuz like recently of, you know, things are going better for me. I'm thinking of ways to improve content and blah blah blah, but like I don't I'm not attached to the outcomes of like my worth isn't tied to followers, but I still feel good when I have a high following day because I know that like it's leading towards this greater vision of like having a full-time job doing this thing. And I think there's also a part of us that's like we try and like become not emotionally invested in our greatest expression. Most people who do content and want to express themselves, they're trying to like rid themselves of this emotional investment. And come to this guy who was talking to me about it, he's like, "There's never going to be a point in my time where I'm not emotionally invested in like my business that he does through his Instagram." He's like, "This is my being. This is an expression of who I am." And I think we're trying to rid ourselves of it. And it's like it's that can you hold these two simultaneous truths? like my Instagram is a direct reflection of you know what I'm about and who I am and that can be scary but also at the same time it doesn't really mean anything at the same time and if it was delete overnight like could that not affect me in the take away the financial aspect for anyone but like could that could I just be okay just to do other stuff and move on and I think if you can get both of those happening in your mind at the same time you're in a pretty [ __ ] good position

>> yeah a real free place to create meaningful things that you really care about in a kind of almost a limitless way of of maybe even trusting that, you know, if if I if I lost that in Instagram, then I would find somewhere else to share that exact same message and I'd still bring it to the world in a different way.

>> Um cuz I think what happens is when we start, right, and this is definitely the mindset I had and and a few changes I've made recently, >> when we start content, we have literally no followers. So, we're trying to we we go through this lens of trying to please as many people as possible. We don't want to be polarizing cuz then people are going to unfollow us. We don't have any followers to lose so we're scared of losing nothing. It's like that's the freedom to express yourself and that is what is going to magnetize people cuz think of a magnet. If you aren't the opposite of something, you're not going to attract anything. You have to repel people to be able to attract people. And that's just the law of physics. The same thing happens to content. The reason your cont like I can objectively see your content and go I know why it went well. You talked about the education system, which is is polarizing because a lot of people have deep-seated like resentment from their own journey about the education system, what they've been told to do. People feel something. You make someone feel something, you're going to create interest. And the rejection one as well, like people are so scared to be themselves in public and be confident like that pulls on the heartstrings. Like that's that's an emotion. So if you can make someone feel something and you can make someone feel something through any means now like you can tell a story you can create fear whatever you want to do there's so many emotions right it's like that is what creates engaging content

>> yeah so can you like pair that with a meaningful message >> and maybe that's the nicest way to think of trying to figure out that duality is like >> sure you know I'm worrying about my hooks and but I have I have something I really want to share okay cool like what is what is the real feeling that you want to convey and can your focus maybe just to really be to like just bring that feeling to other people, you know, um and not get so lost in all the little things about what kind of font your subtitles are and all this crazy stuff.

>> Don't start.

>> Yeah, that that can just be really as well these nice little roadblocks you can use as excuses to stop sharing anyway.

>> Um

>> so yeah, it's social media is such an incredible place and it's such a new thing still. Um, and uh, yeah, I just hope uh, even comos like this or just people looking to create on social media or are already creating and have a big following can just continue to try and really >> share something meaningful and use the space in a way that is authentically >> good, which probably that person can only be the one that can answer.

>> Yeah. I read this thing from Chris Williamson about inputs, outputs, and impact. And like it's a really good like part of his newsletter, so I won't be able to quote it, but I'll paraphrase it. It's like inputs are like when we say like, oh, I I spent 10 hours making content this week. Outputs are like, I made three one minute reels this week. Then impacts like my three reels that I made got 10,000 likes across the three of them. Although that'd be pretty good, but 10. So something you can measure. And I think within each of those frames, there can be issues like especially the first two. So we get a lot of pride when we go like, "Yeah, I'm working so hard on my podcast." And like this was me for the last couple of years. I've only really recently dialed this in. I fixate so much like, "Oh yeah, I'm putting so much time in, but I'm spending one hour on a font on Canva on a [ __ ] unnecessary thing."

>> That's not going to move the needle forward. It doesn't really matter. Like

>> really high leverage. M

>> and then okay, is it okay what's an input so if I'm making an episode right um sorry output so like let's say I'm doing three episodes a week and I'm making and I'm putting a bit of time into the titles cuz I think they can be really important okay at least that's a bit more closer to an output right and and when you go to impact as well I think it allows us to um fixate on like how is this process converting to something so it's good it's a good frame to think about and it's actually really worth reading what he wrote wrote about because I think we fix a we get a lot of the perfectionism label we put on ourselves can get really stuck in like yeah I'm putting all this time into my thing it's not really going anywhere so I'm sort of going to give up and I I have fallen into the trap of playing the victim mentality cuz I wouldn't be intentional with my time I wouldn't do the things that would move the needle forward I was so fixated on like unnecessary things oh let's just swap provider again let's go from let's change who's hosting my podcast or let's try this new idea an amount of side quest I've done that I've call it self-sabotage. I mean, we we get some unconscious payoff from not doing the thing. But we sabotage ourselves because it's scary to continue to apply yourself and when you're not getting the rewards.

>> Yeah. And that and that you sometimes have to just have again that to to be able to like really have the courage to figure out what is the highest leverage thing I can do and is it the thing I'm like avoiding because why am I avoiding that? Is it because ah but my thumbnails just aren't good enough, man. Like I I need to keep figuring that out. Or is it like you need to go back to like why you're making this in the first place? What what is it again that you loved that you want to share with the world? And are you now sharing about just only doing debates because they were performing well and the impact was getting greater? Um like and and now why I like why am I struggling with making these work and why am I not enjoying them anymore? I just don't think that I don't like the branding. It's like can you have the courage to ask again that like that real deeper question about like what is the fear? What is the internal roadblock that is preventing you from moving forward? Like that's just growth right there. Like being someone who's willing to explore that and try and figure out what's the next thing, next way I can improve or the next roadblock of fear that I can try and overcome or or walk through or or look at or explore. um in whatever area of life you know you're in even in the corporate world or just you as a person or relationships to like >> yeah just to dive in a bit to go deeper into yourself. It's like >> scary as but it's an incredible incredibly worthwhile thing to do. Um and you can be doing that anywhere. Those fears will come up in everything, right? Like it will come up in content, it will come up in the thumbnail process, you know, it it will it will show up in your life. And uh what a great thing to to try and face those in every area.

>> I also pair that with like I do look from some of the best podcasters like okay what are their standards? Like if you want to be somewhere who is there and why are they there? Doesn't mean you have to be them. That's not about copying the essence of who they are. It's about is there a framework that they're embodying around their titles or their thumbnails or their systems of promoting and marketing and bubble wrapping. Like for me, I actually don't care about that stuff. Like I've never been that interested in the marketing and bubble wrapping. So I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to copy a successful framework. The essence of who I am is through these conversations. I keep this very, very authentic. So I know that I'm doing what is aligned. Yes. Okay. you know, I have some systems in place that I didn't invent. So what? But at the core, the valuable long form podcasts when I research this stuff, like I'm thinking about ideas about what I'm curious in. I'm researching, I'm investigating all these things. Like I know that that's me. And I think you can learn a lot from other people who are successful. But you got to pair that with while you're going on that journey of like being yourself. And this is the paradox of content creation is there's all these like things where it's like be yourself. Okay. But also learn from people are successful because they have some tools in their social media.

>> Still use my script framework.

>> Yeah.

>> Comment script for

>> Exactly. There's so many things um so many things to learn. I think sometimes the only way is um is through. But also, I also I'm such a staunch believer in like if you have the right toolkit, like if you've been learning these things around self-awareness and how to have good habits and systems, like I think the feedback loops quicker and you grow quicker.

>> Yeah. And if you can create especially on the content side, you know, I've like been talking to a few people recently who want to start and just really interesting those combos about um questions that just keep coming up about so like what camera do you use and what about your lights and I still haven't gotten around to making my first real in the last week because I just don't know how I'm going to film it and just being like man like these people who have a real meaningful message. You know, I've been talking to this guy who's uh wants to make a philosophy account to really bring old philosophy to Gen Zed and try and bridge that gap. And he's a poetic guy and he and he makes beautiful content. It's just, you know, he can figure out the engaging stuff later. Like

>> he's already got the thing. Like he he he's already I've been telling him like, man, you have an authentic meaningful message to share with the world. Not that many people have found that >> and you're 20 or whatever. um you can learn the other stuff on YouTube and >> but he's at step one. He's trying to be at step 10 because that's what we feel the pressure of like because we see these high performing accounts >> and like even the things I was referring about before like that's because I've progressed like I just started with a podcast. No cameras. I bought $50 mics off a mate. I had it from streaming recording through my laptop and now I've spent [ __ ] 20 grand over the last 3 years, right? Like, and this is just the start of my I'm at, let's say I'm at chapter four. There's going to be a chapter 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. You've got to be able to have the self-awareness to know what part of the journey you're at. If you're at chapter one, you haven't started. Just [ __ ] post the content. Don't worry about the perfect caption, making a business out of it.

>> There is no there is fog. There is fog. same thing of that probably that pre-ingrained belief of trying to look for all that certainty down the line of how it's all going to pan out and what I should be doing when I get to yeah step 10 but realizing that like you you've got about 5 meters of clarity in front of you and you just need to keep walking and just keep taking the next step and it will continue to the way will continue to be revealed as you take action um good quote is the D Martini I love this he because often what we do is we say it's in the way so like excuses around camera or whatever excuse you want to come up with instead of saying it's in the way it's on the way. So just a quick the easiest reframe if you think something is in the way how is this serving me how is it actually on the way? So so much of my journey like I've created all these excuses camera is not good enough you know like all these little things and it's like how is this serving me like what are the benefits to me? So, when you start out, right? What are the benefits to not having the cameras, not having all this thing?

>> Well, you got to list the benefits. There's no there's no consequences if it fails. There's no pressure. There's no financial investment. There's always a benefit you'll get at every single moment in time. We're just so conscious of what the downsides are. We're not aware of the benefits. Like, if you post one video and you hate it and you're scared, then you can give up. There's there's like if I gave up now, if I stopped doing it now, like it's it's a different point to if you've posted one video. Do you know how many people are going to ask me what happened to the podcast? I have to live with that. Right. You're at stage one. There's freedom.

>> Yeah. And also like what was the thing that got you from step one to two? It was starting doing >> even when you didn't know how properly, you know, fiddling around with audio and >> watching some random YouTube videos and figuring it out and then one episode you go, man, you look probably look back on your first episode and go, dude, the audio is like shocking or I can't look at what I forgot to do that time. Like I look back at my first YouTube videos and they're like hilarious. Um but I wouldn't have gone to this point if I didn't start. And uh sometimes this is brutally simple. It's like you just need to take action and begin and it's not sexy. It's like it's it's not talk you know that classic like Chris Williamson I think about doing the thing and can be yeah doing you know talking about doing the thing isn't doing the thing and blah blah blah.

>> Doing the thing isn't you know making content about how you're going to do the thing you know. Yeah. It's not the thing either. And sometimes you need to close the door of your room and to not have music going either and trying to distract yourself from the task and just take action on whatever that thing is that you're trying to do.

>> And uh I always move so much further forward when I do that. When I'm having days where I'm like, damn, I so have to record this thing. I know it's going to be the thing that's going to be great for the business or I need to write this plan out and I can't be bothered. And the reward from just taking those high leverage moves, figuring out what the things are that will really move you forward might be as simple as literally just starting or trying to record your first podcast really as messy as it has to be will just reveal so much to you. Even about if you don't want to go in that path, it could be the the J curve which takes you to I think I actually want to get into this whole completely different thing. The person you met along the way from trying this random idea could be the thing that reveals the next completely opposite idea that ends up being your path. like the action creates that those opportunities for more clarity.

>> Every step of the journey does require a different lesson to be learned. Just it's the willingness to start cuz like there's no cookie cutter answer. Like depends what what part of the journey you're on. It's just that's where having the self-awareness around who you are is important because you know what the internal signals are. Like I know when I'm distracting myself now and not getting it done. I know what process it looks like sometimes. Yeah, it's going to be depends why you're using social media because some people just use it as a way to express their thoughts and they can get a following just in any way. There's no there's no right or wrong way to be authentic on social media in terms of let's say without hurting anyone or something like but like in terms of if yeah, it's going to be messy. It's going to be it's I think that is the you have to [ __ ] come to terms with you're going to get knocked down a lot if if you really want to make a statement, right? You're going to be knocked down. You're going to be late nights overthinking it. You're going to be anxious and then you're going to be more resilient because you were anxious and you still did the thing and you still showed up. And then you're going to get stressed out and think, I'm going to give up. I'm just going to go to a normal job. And then you're going to go, "Actually, I really [ __ ] love this thing." And what is the alternative? And you're going to keep going through these series of oscillations between every single emotion. And that is what makes you the person.

>> Yeah. And and just when you said, "What is the alternative?" That has been for me the number one thing that's made me keep going when I've been in those like those slumps and those real dips has just to been just to remember in spite of all that in spite of all uh the anxious moments that may build up and the late nights and the challenges and the doubts and the insecurities you're facing and the fears that are coming up um to ask yourself you know because you go why am I doing this why have I chosen this path again this is this is cooked I I can't keep going >> to remember okay like what is the alternative again >> what was the thing that was so draining to me that I I just couldn't keep going and I had to look for something else when I had no idea what it was going to be. Like that path is waiting for you and it will welcome you back with open arms. A a path of a a smaller life that that has been there for you. You chose to walk this and to explore and look for something something else. The normal system will be there waiting for you.

>> You don't have to work yourself out that two years trying to do something different is going to be the the deal breaker. So you can't enter the corporate world. Um it will be there waiting for you. And also when you choose to play the victim, you will be patted on the back and told how hard you had it and welcomed back. That that is that is there for you. Are you willing to own your journey and continue to kind of walk that path?

>> That's it's up to you. I think we don't realize how good a story it's going to be when we do like I can just see yourself in 5 10 years I can see myself in 5 10 years and go is this a story worth telling and I know I'm on the way to building that and even the last month since I've gone allin like I don't like to reflect too hard because I'm also know that like I'm quite aware like I'm not some big successful podcaster this thing isn't making money like I'm well aware of the situation him like yes I aspire towards that but just the changes is in myself and like how I feel and like what it's giving to my life like at the end of the day this is a finite experience and like psychologically like yeah, it it's um I don't know what I was talking about just I guess after going all in like just the whole experience I guess like for you like what has been the biggest takeaway in the last month >> or have you even felt this crazy difference between >> all the growth you've had in the last month versus the last I don't know a year or or or being not fully allin like how's it felt like the choice to just go?

>> I reckon it's been two stages. So like firstly it was easier and harder in the sense like I was so like on that emotional high like this is the thing. >> Then it got really hard and stressful cuz I was fixating so hard on numbers. Like I said I'm going all in so I need the numbers. And then the last few weeks I've been like, "Yeah, I'm all in, but I can let go of the numbers because I know I know deep down now." Like I said to you, like I'm doing three episodes a week and I'm that's it. That's that's three episodes a week and this is just going to be me for put my foot down and whatever. Like I I know I've proven like I can do episodes, right? This is episode 170 something. Like I've done a lot of episodes, but I've taken a few breaks and I've had excuses. I played the victim and that's been my my biggest learning over my content journey if I could give myself advice and then anyone else in a similar position is like you're not the victim. It if something's not working in the sense of content and you and it hasn't been turned out to this thing like if you play the victim it's not going to change anything. It's not going to change anything. Like, yeah, I've had a tiniest little bit of growth in the last month. And I see this growing more and more because like I'm willing to never play the victim to myself anymore. Like, I've had that hard internal chat. Like, your life is a direct reflection of what you're willing to face and accept and make changes on.

>> So, I feel like allin is easier in the sense of there's less [ __ ] There's less changing of my mind. There's le there's more certainty that I'm never going to give up. Um, and and I'm also accepting more of the suffering of like, okay, yesterday, for example, this is a prime example of content creation. It's 4:00 on a Friday, and I'm sitting down to edit this 2-hour podcast I just did. So, I go through it. I time stamp the whole thing. I make the manual cuts. And I had that thought like, [ __ ] man. This is pretty [ __ ] Like, I can't be [ __ ] And I And you just do it. There's no guarantee that this thing podcast is just going to happen and it's going to be worth the suffering. But I've had this realization that you need to just do the thing and continue to do it and not resent those parts. Like cuz when I was doing it, I was like, how many other people willing to do this as well? Like if I want to be ex I don't hide my ambition anymore. Like I want to be exceptional. I want to be one of the great podcasters of the modern era. Like I want to be like Chris Williamson. I want to be exceptional. But if I'm not willing to be the exception, then what why why would anyone listen to this podcast or why would anyone take note of this journey? It might take me 500 episode. It might take me a thousand, but

>> yeah, Epic. So cool. No, dude, your journey's been so cool to to watch and and even like how we've, you know, a year ago we were having another podcast discussion and then I don't know, maybe a year before that was the first one to just these little check-ins along our journey is like really cool as well. And um yeah, like I've always thought about you moments like that where I really just don't I just don't want to be doing the thing. I don't even have to think about it. I just for that moment would just rather be a normal person who's just chilling out on a Sunday or you know whatever it is. Um to just know that yeah, this is this is the point right here where most people would turn around and that's why I'm going to keep going because I want to I want to go further. I want to do my thing and this is where most people will >> would have turned the corner and gone back to the safer alternative and >> that's why I'm here. I'm going to keep going.

>> Um it's nice to I often just like saying that in my head of like yeah this is where most people turn around. Okay, >> what am I going to do? Am I going to turn around or am I going to sit here and get this done or do that thing?

>> Yeah, that always fs me up a bit. There's because there's always the balance. Like there's some of the annoying boring [ __ ] that you have to do when you start, but then like okay, but that allows me then to have a podcast that I'm proud of, make a real positive impact for people, provide this library of wisdom around some of the most important topics, and it's like life has challenge and support. If you just think it's going to be this one-sided fantasy of successful podcast, traveling the world instantly, having respect by people because you've done this thing for a long time, like that's that's earned. And and a question I keep asking myself, if I got overnight success, how long would it take me to realize that I didn't truly earn that? And if if I didn't actually go through that process of grinding for a period of time where I wasn't certain and I lent into these difficult experiences when maybe the growth was a little bit slower and I was doubting myself that if I didn't continue to show up like is that really really could anyone do that then

>> so where like a lot of that self- loveve can come from the proof of the way you've responded in those times where you were just kind of by yourself or you in that deep pit of challenge where it was you that decided with the love that you have for yourself to get up and keep going and like those bits of proof about like damn I showed up for myself like >> that was all me like I everyone would have welcomed me back or I had no other options I chose or I had other options whichever way it was like I chose to just keep going because I really cared about this mission like those lows are you know cliche as it is like all part of the journey but those lows are the bits that make everything meaningful. You know, the deep discovery into those parts of yourself where you learn something about and you go, "Fuck, I'm going to keep going." Like, I want to find out more is what it's all about. The success is maybe that kind of byproduct from >> how deep you're willing to go.

>> I got a few points to add there. There's the one like that you're talking about like those private victories, those are the most life-changing little wins you'll get with social media and content as well. It's funny because let's just say I made a post, right? And I was like, I'm giving up the podcast. I'm done. Like just a full Instagram goodbye. Like >> sure, >> I guarantee you a lot of lot of people would either comment or be interested and be like somewhat like messaging me or expressing, but none of those people are going to show too much interest as you go on the journey cuz people are preoccupied with their life. That's that's just reality, right? There's so many silent supporters that we have and I know I have silent supporters who always check

In every, every while again. And I think what happens is we get really isolated because it is an isolating journey to put yourself out there and be like, "This is a version of myself. Like, is it acceptable? Like, do you like me?" And it's like, that is uncomfortable.

Um, but I do think we have a lot of silent supporters. And one of the biggest issues we do have in Australia is, I think silent supporters need to get louder. Hopefully, I can make this a clip. But the problem is, we have small creators who are trying to make an impact in this world, and no one is showing them support. Yet, I see all of these other small creators and also all these other people commenting on accounts that have 5 million followers. They're not going to reply to you, and they're not going to comment. Like, support your friends, support other small content creators. I think that's the problem in Australia. We all want to piggyback on the successful people, and because it's safe and predictable to be in the comments section of someone who has a thousand comments. Mel Robbins, Chris Williamson, they're not going to reply to you. But your friend who's trying to make a podcast, or your friend who's trying to talk about their art, or their poetry, or they're trying to put their music on, support them. They're the ones who need it, not the big content creators who have [ __ ] done the thing.

>> Yeah. Cut.

No, no, dude. I couldn't agree more. I'm sure you know, even even now, but especially even at the very start of the journey, to have a few people in your corner going like, "Damn, I came across this reel like, uh, really like what you're doing, you know?" Um, can mean 10 million times more when you're smaller versus being as a huge account where there must be thousands of those coming in every single day.

Um, yeah, giving support to people when, and, and but sometimes it can really pull on someone's, uh, uncomfortable part of themselves when they see someone who is willing to face that and put themselves out there when they go, "Damn, I, >> why does this piss me off?" Maybe there's some deeper part of that person that, which is they would be able to do the same thing in their own version of their life, you know, be seen or >> be willing to be exposed.

>> Yeah, dude. Support, support the the new guys, the little guys.

>> Yeah. Um, >> like I try my best to comment and like and message accounts, small accounts. Like I'm small. I'm very small, but like when I can, because I know what that feels like. And I, I, I get that a lot of people don't understand what it feels like to be a small content creator. Like putting your, like this podcast is like my heart and soul, and I, I put, I'm putting like when I said I want to make this my career, I'm putting my dreams out into the table and I'm like, "Hey, I don't know when this is going to happen, but I want to make it happen." And you know, I, I make posts that don't get much engagement, but that's not only going to improve me as a person, but like that's just life as well. So, >> yeah, necessary part of the journey, you know, just classically those massive creators would have been in the exact same position at one point with the amount of engagement they were getting at the very start as well.

>> Exactly.

>> And that's always good to remember as well. But yeah, dude, I, I, uh, I think encouragement of people really being willing to try something different at the start, um, can definitely be missed.

>> Um, it's a lot easier to probably laugh at it or share it to your friends. Um, for those people that are looking for that bit of validation that their path is better than this other path that they're seeing someone out, try that is actually maybe kind of making them go, "Damn, that's, that's pretty interesting. They're really going for something they care about. >> [ __ ] what am I doing anyway?" Share through group chat. I think that's the, like those triggers, like when we get, it's actually so important as well, like, >> I feel like when we do, we are very, very judgmental people by nature. And I think we all judge in our own unique way, but I think that's where I've learned a lot. Like I remember starting out the podcast, like I was very judgmental of people who weren't taking a risk. And like, I didn't really understand that, but I was like, "Okay, you know, I have a lot of privilege in my life and I've had things that have made like, I don't do the podcast from a place of like, go outside the norm for the sake of going outside the norm, just to be special because you're better than other people. Like the premise of my podcast is to help people be connected closer to themselves so that they can actually live aligned with that and also discover like real knowledge because I truly believe that people don't have real answers around all areas of life.

>> No, dude.

Yeah. I think at least that, uh, supporting those people who are willing to f explore the parts of themselves, you know, and like, like the, the fact that that is a trigger for some people, you know, like I, I know for a fact, I'm sure you've been the same. Like, >> damn, when I've posted that first reel, like had a lot of shares on it.

>> Oh, you can't beat Jack shares.

>> Yeah. No, but as in like, a, I, I just know, >> you feel it. You feel it as well, don't you?

>> Bunch of great chats and I already know there's there'll be a couple of jokes like that here and there.

>> But again, the alternative, I'm much happier to be here. But >> um, that that feeling that people get and we get in different ways anyway with things that kind of maybe make us go, "Oh, that frustrates me in a way." Like that is a great opportunity for there's a question there that you can explore about, >> why does it make me feel like that? What, what is it pressing on in me that I haven't addressed or a fear or a judgment I've got about someone? Like, why do I have that?

>> Um, it's another great opportunity just to, I suppose, learn more about yourself as well.

>> 100%. Any concluding thoughts?

>> Not really, man. That was epic. I, uh, just really nice to sit down and have a nice big conversation, you know, no phones and just lock in and talk about everything and whatever comes up.

>> Um, >> dude, just excited for your journey. I just think the recently I feel like I've decided to really go, uh, the bit more all in as well, like in the last maybe 3 months. And just to hear that you're doing the same thing and to hear about the first potty tour and just the mindset you have around it, >> um, yeah, super inspiring, nice energizer for me to keep going as well. And, um, >> yeah, need, we need more people doing the exact same thing and, and pushing themselves in a direction that is really aligned and meaningful because there's something here that they can't quite explain almost, >> that that's taking them in that direction and they want to follow it. So, hats off to you and hopefully there's a couple young content creators or people who want to make something meaningful in the world listening that, uh, get a nice bit of a kick.

>> Yeah. And go into the show notes and you can work with Sam and see more of his content. I'll, I'll tag his stuff below.

>> Yep. Sam, thanks for coming on.

>> Thank you, man. It was awesome.