Transcription
I was accused of intimidating their staff. I don't try to intimidate anybody. You intimidate them by allowing a player to play at those stakes. You didn't train them properly to deal that game.
I'm calling from Blackjack Apprenticeship and I'm joined by Don Johnson. Don is a former horse jockey, racetrack CEO, and a blackjack Hall of Famer who, in 2010 and '11, beat Atlantic City for $15 million. He did this by, among other things, negotiating the casinos into offering him lost rebates that provided a massive advantage at the blackjack tables. Don, thank you for joining us.
Sure, happy to be here. Can you walk us through the initial steps that you took into the gambling world?
Yeah, I started out in horse racing, so that was my introduction into gaming. And everything from running racetracks, was a jockey at one time, uh, and, uh, and then transcended into being a, uh, a regulator, regulating horse racing in different states, and then finally got on this side of the fence where we actually work with a, a group of professional players.
I noticed at the track, one of the tracks I was managing was Philadelphia Park Racetrack, which is now Parks Casino and Racing in, in Pennsylvania, uh, that there are, there were a handful of people. First of all, when I got there, we didn't have really an area that you would, that you would be able to track your big players. So we built a director's room so that we could identify who these players were and then invite them into the, to the director's room. And then at, uh, one point, I'm watching these guys, the same guys that are there all the time. And of course, your initial reaction is, is, okay, don't these degenerates have any jobs? But then as I'm tracking, I'm like, wait a minute, these guys actually make money doing this. And they're using an old-school system. Some of them had filing cabinets in there. I, we, we literally created small cubicle offices for, for them, and they're in there doing, uh, physical handicapping, uh, of a few tracks a day. So when we started doing the full card simulcasting, these guys would play whatever tracks that we had put up. At the time, it was really only two or three tracks. As it expanded the full card simulcasting, I noticed that these guys had trouble keeping up. They could physically handicap one, two, maybe parts of a third track, but it's a lot of work if you're physically doing that type of research and, and, and, and physical handicapping.
If you're working on, on the racetrack side or the casino side, how did, how did that transition into betting?
I just, again, was lucky that I met some of the right people at the right time and was introduced to a couple of people. You, you, you know them, who, whose names were not allowed to talk about. Sure. But, uh, I was out in a nightclub one night, met these two guys who was introduced to me as poker players. I meet millions of poker players that come through. Most of them are not pros at all. You, you don't meet that many Phil Ivey or Negreanu out there. Uh, and, and even some of the top guys are questionable whether or not they can actually make a profession out of it. Not Phil Ivey, Phil Ivey makes a profession out of it. So, and Negreanu, those guys are real pros.
Were you already a blackjack player?
I was playing, but not at the level that I knew that you could take it to or found out that you could take it to. I knew you could develop an edge there just by reading a bunch of the different books and then maintaining a discipline to try and, because blackjack's simple, the math is not that difficult. Yeah, it's, it's knowing the seen cards and unseen cards and what's left. And then if you can apply a couple of other techniques to that, you could, you know, if you're playing in a high-limit game of, what do the house take on a, on a six-deck with very good rules? Yeah, three. Yeah, you could get it down to 0.25%, 0.3% maybe even a little bit less if they give you early surrender. Then they pretty much give away whatever the house edge is. So not very many people are, are wanting to push something that far.
Is there something about your background that you feel like made you prepared for, to say, let's, let's do this at a very large scale, or was it the people you were around?
I think it was having met those right people at the right time was able to elevate it to a level that I was more comfortable with taking that kind of risk. Or I would never have done that before. You know, believing that the, you know, or having, I believe that the math was right and figuring it out, but I didn't, I didn't trust it, not completely. There was, and there's a lot of variance when you're doing that. Yeah. So a lot of it had to do with having more confidence in, in having met some people that really knew the math and that were really good at it. And I, I look, I make no false pretense at all. I'm not as good at math as some of those guys are. Yeah, hardly anyone is. They're, they're in a different stratosphere. It's, it, it's unreal some of the things that I got to witness along, along that path of playing, yeah, alongside some of those guys that are, let's just face it, they're in a, you know, there's pros and then there's, you know, they're like super pros. Yeah. Yeah, they're, they're, they're a super pro.
In 2010, casinos started reaching out, trying to get people into the high-limit rooms. It's the recession and all that stuff. And you had a background in negotiating rebates, is that correct? Through, through the horse tracks?
Yes. Well, it was part of the tracks at one point, and then having to give out, out player reward programs and creating player reward programs. And what part of your net revenue that you're making are you willing to bonus back in the form of comps? So I had somewhat of a background in that and some familiarity with it. And then again, met other people that were really good at at negotiating comps. You know, some people say you extorted casinos. Nobody extorted anything from a casino. They did deals that they were comfortable with. Yeah. You know, I don't believe Phil Ivey extorted a casino. He negotiated a deal. Uh, they agreed to it. And then, you know, in my opinion, just my opinion, but, you know, when they got beat, they cried foul. Yeah. And I say shame on them. But, uh, you know, the court saw otherwise in some of those cases. But, uh, yeah, I think Phil was fair.
Yeah, I want to circle back around to that. But, um, when they started reaching out, did they start offering lost rebates right away, or how much of it was you kind of pushing their button, seeing what, what they could offer you?
Happened to be at the right place at the right time. I was at an Eagles Monday Night Football game in Washington D.C. They were playing the, can we say the Redskins anymore? Is that all taboo? That was the name back then. Yeah. Yeah, it was the Redskins back then. And we're at this Monday night game, and a couple of other high-end players that are not pros, but they, they were getting pitched by somebody that was there from Atlantic City, from the casinos. And the deal that they were pitching were these rebates. And I knew about the rebates, but they weren't offering anything like that to me. And, uh, and the game that they were offering. And, uh, I just, as they're making the pitch, I said, "Would you offer that to anybody?" And they said, "Yeah, sure." I said, "You would offer that to me? What do I, what do I need to do?" They said, "You just need to show up with, uh, with a credit line of a million or a million dollars upfront." I says, "Okay, post up. And when can we start?"
Well, I'm just curious, what was that on your own kind of, when, when that deal, when I overheard that deal being pitched to these other players?
Yeah, I was on my own. But then I went back to my guys and said, "Hey, if I had this, what would the landscape look like? And what do I need to know about the properties that I might go and play at in order to, uh, make the edge even better?" Yeah, because we quickly determined that, yeah, getting a 20, 22%? 22 and a half percent, I think was the highest, was being offered rebate on, uh, losses was a straight-up edge. You can just play. You can just play basic strategy. Not a huge edge. Uh, it, it, it's more significant than you think if you apply a stop loss in there somewhere. So they require you to come in with a million, but they won't say which property. Because I think it's embarrassing for them at this point. Whoever did the math determined that you can get the 20 to 22.5% discount rebate, you can get it at a half a million. What's the purpose of coming in with a million if you're, if you're, why would you play beyond that? Yeah, unless your last hand was a losing hand that pushed you over. Well, how many people are just chasing at that point? They're probably somewhat betting on that, or they figure, "I've hit the threshold, everything from here out is at a discount." Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah. But the, but that's not what the math lends itself to. You're, you actually have a diminishing edge at that, some point off of your peak. I guarantee the average person taking them up on it is not doing the math. They're not, they're not thinking that through or, or had not run any kind of an optimization exercise on it.
So did you start attacking that right away, or did you say, "Well, what else can I mean, I know you did negotiate the rules of the game. How, how much negotiating happened before you started, uh, attacking this?"
Yeah, that went on for a few weeks. Okay. Probably two, three weeks before I actually went in and played.
What are some of the things you asked for that they said no to?
Well, everything. Do you ask for early surrender? Oh, of course. I mean, you look, you haven't asked for enough until you get a lot of "no's." Not one "no." You need several "no's." "We can't do that." "We can't do that." When you get enough "no's" and you know that you've gotten all you can get out of that property, and anything else you could think of that you asked for that they said no, "We're not going to do that." It was a square game that you would see back then in any normal high-limit where they had normal surrender. There was one property that was offering early surrender, but they were offering early surrender by accident. Oh, wow. I just think that because at that level, they weren't used to, most of the dealers weren't used to dealing surrender. So if you're sitting there playing and you know you have surrender, but yet, you know, dealer gets an ace and you go, "I surrender," and they give it to you, you're like, "Okay, I have early surrender." Yeah, that wasn't negotiated, but they were offering it. So you just do it. Yeah, of course. Oh my gosh, that's the dream. Yeah. I mean, and that went on at this one property for one whole night, and then they corrected it the next time I went in to try and play. And, and then of course, you cut back stakes at that point and just say, "Okay, it's not the same game now. Let me figure out what game it is." So you're always pushing parameters because maybe they forgot what they negotiated. They shouldn't, or there's a miscommunication between who did the negotiating and who's actually managing the table games. That always happens. Yes. Yeah. I've had high-limit rooms where, you know, I don't ask, but I start playing as if they're surrender, and they let, they let it go for a couple of hours, and then a call comes down, they say, "Hey, we can't offer that at that game." Or maybe they were willing to accept it, but just not to you. So they're going to correct it going forward. Also, something you have to be careful of, you know, they can change the rules on you anytime midstream. So if you're up side down, and they determine that, uh, your skill set is just too great for the variance that they want to risk, guess what? They can stop you. So just, you know, be careful, be mindful that they can change the game or stop the game at any point, even if you're down. And that's happened to some of the big, uh, uh, the big APs at the, at the highest level.
Are there any instances you can think of where mid-session they changed rules on you?
Uh, yeah, yeah, it's happened. Or they, they just stopped the game. They just stopped the game mid-session, uh, because you're winning too much, or losing, or they just figured out, "Oh, we've made a mistake." They just determined, or somebody woke up and just said, "Yeah, we're not going to do that with that guy." The, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the game. I, it happened to me in Atlantic City at the, you know, with, with the Hard Rock guys after they took over the casino. I'll talk about them not in a negative way. I get it. You know, they, they don't want to take the risk. But why go through the trouble of inviting me in, giving me the rules? I get there and just start to play, and then, whoa, whoa, whoa, put the brakes on. So at some point, maybe the, I, I don't know who made that decision because I was dealing with the top guys on property and got there, actually had dinner with them. Okay, time to go play. And start playing, literally about 10 hands in. Wow, wow. Yeah, big red sign comes out because it's New Jersey. They can't stop, stop anybody from playing unless you're doing something criminal. And, uh, you know, big red sign comes out, minimum bet $50, maximum bet $50. So now what are you gonna do? Yeah, nothing. You're gonna stop playing.
That's crazy. With the, what was the normal minimum bet?
$5,000 or a thousand. Uh, that game, I think that the max was, I think the max was $10,000. Okay. 10 by 3, $10,000, three hands, up to three hands. Yes. And the min was 100. So, to $10,000. So it wasn't anything exceptional. Yeah. Yeah. This was after all the other stuff that happened with the Tropicana and Caesar's. And I wanted to talk about that. There's the famous night at the Tropicana where you won $6 million. What was going through your mind during that?
Nothing. Nothing. Just, just play. Just, just play through. Generate EV. Yeah, because at some point, overperforming, of course. Come on. Yeah, you're, you're not going to. But overperforming by how much? It was, it was within the realistic realm of variance because they're letting you about $100,000 a hand. Mhm. You only need a few splits with doubles at that level, and if you win those, it's going to be really difficult for them to make up the, make, make up the negative difference. Well, I'm a card counter. Anytime I'm running hot, positive variance, I'm waiting for the phone call to be, you know, to get backed off. Any, any moment. Were you, it could happen. Were you waiting? Were you expecting that when, you know, just winning hand after hand, or did you feel so comfortable there, you, you weren't worried about it?
I never had that impression that that was that, that was going to happen. Not at any point. Not at a million, not at two million, not at three, not at four. Uh, when we, and, and I, I proclaimed that, "Okay, you've got how much do you have left?" It's like sitting at a poker table at that point. It'd be like if Phil was sitting across from me and I said, "What do you got left? I'm going to go all in." Yeah. I looked at what they had left in the tray. I got, "I want every chip in the tray. What do you got there? Let's count it down. I'm going to win every chip." So once I won every chip in the tray, I'm waiting for the fill. When that last fill didn't come, then I knew it was over. I say, "Well, you're invited to go out there," meaning, you know, outside high-limit. You can play out there. Well, how about if I go to the table next to me? Now, this is it. When you know you can go out there, there's no other table in high-limit. We're not opening another one for you. I didn't understand at the time why they did because legally they couldn't open another one. Oh, interesting. They have to have enough cash in the cage to cover every chip that's in circulation on the floor. So if they did bring in another fill, they'd have to start closing tables. Wow. And they can't do that. They didn't have enough money to cover more action when you count all the other tables. Yeah. I didn't know that at the time. I hadn't read that. I hadn't read the law because it was never presented to me before. So I never had a reason to read that section of the law. Once I read it, I says, "Okay, now it makes perfect sense." It isn't that they didn't want to or wouldn't have taken the risk. Maybe they should have woken up Carl Icahn. But nice guy, by the way. I mean, if they really think they've got an edge on you, they could have closed some of the tables on the main floor. Yeah. I think that they were still regrouping, trying to figure out, "Okay, do we want to keep going with this guy?" Or should we just, you know, somebody made a decision, just say, "Yeah, no more Phil. We're just going to, we're going to take a breath." Yep. And see where we're at with this. And I don't think it helped that very close to the same time frame, they took a beating by another player that beat them out of $5 million, close to it. Which is, I didn't say his name. I think it's pretty well known now, which was, uh, Ron Meyer from the, from the, uh, movie industry. Okay. Not MGM Gaming, but MGM Studios. And he had beat them up a little bit. So, yeah, so they got a double whammy there in a short proximity period of time. It probably screwed up their month, if not their quarter. I don't know what they were doing back there in business at the time. Yeah, that's crazy.
So obviously talking about big wins is more fun, but, oh, you're going to take beatings that are losses. Yeah. I love that. Everyone's like, "Oh, you just win all the time." Nobody wins all the time. There's big variance when you're playing at that level. And how did you handle those, those negative swings?
It hurts, but you regroup, reassure yourself, you know, bring your closest guys around you and say, "Hey, did I miss something here?" And they're going to be honest with you. They're just looking at the numbers. And, and then you regroup and take your discount, regroup and come back at it.
Did you guys have to resize ever because of a losing streak?
No, because we were hitting, we're going to hit table limit anyway, and you're going to hit that stop loss. So, yeah, as long as your bankroll was still in the, in the multi-millions, say how much, but in the multi, multi-millions, you were good. You're good for a $500,000 stop loss.
Do you remember the longest losing streak you went on?
No, because there was always some periodic wins in there. Even if they weren't a million-dollar win, there were other wins in there for $100,000, $200,000, couple hundred thousand. Smaller casinos would stop you. I remember going to Gary, Indiana. We were going to the, to some appearance in Chicago and negotiated a deal with the Horseshoe, and they were cool if you lost and happy to pay the 20% discount. But as soon as you came back and whacked them for more than what you lost to them, and then add a million on top of that, then the gauntlet came down really quick. Oh, really? They, they would shut it down.
Do you think they thought they were offering you advantage to you, or do you think they just couldn't handle the swings?
They just didn't want the swings. I think they could have handled it. They had enough business there from what I could tell. They just didn't want it. They didn't want it. Yeah. And now they're so corporate, you know, whether it's MGM or Caesars or these guys are just so corporate now. At least I could say that they just don't want the variance unless you're a stone-cold loser. They don't want people playing at that level. I don't want to take a risk that somebody come in and hit them for two people could come in and whack them and one month for 10, 20 million. They just won't do it. I get it. But it's just not the same environment. Steve Wynn was always very cautious, but, um, I think he was probably more on top of his games than than any other operator that I dealt with. Interesting. Is that the people he hired, they could analyze what they were offering? I think he was actually, I think he's actually, what was it? It's not like the guy died. He's just not allowed in his casinos anymore from what I read. Um, but no, I think Steve was, Steven's pretty astute. I think he's a pretty sharp operator. And from what I hear from some of his guys on the inside, no, he ruled that place. He was, he was a perfectionist at every level, whether it was dust on a table or whether it's how his table games were were offered. But he was in charge of that.
As a card counter, you win five grand, 10 grand. In the back-offs can be really nasty. What is a back-off like when you're, when you're up a million, 2 million, 5 million?
Well, if you're playing at that level, you're going to have your own private security with you because of the amount of chips and cash that you're carrying around. And you just have bigger and better security than the. How are they going to back you off? They're going to be polite. Look, you've negotiated those terms. You're not going in unannounced. You can't put that kind of money in circulation without being invited in. So the environment of doing it is way different than going in where you're trying to buy in and out under the $10,000 threshold to avoid generating CTRs. So it, it makes sense. Yeah, it's completely different. They know you're there. You didn't sneak in. Yeah, nobody snuck in to play three hands by 10. Oh, I've been in, I've been invited in and still had a, you know, a dozen security guards around me when they, Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't want to say where, but, uh, but, you know, it's, yeah, they were, they were super happy and offering me this, that, and the other. How can they act surprised? I mean, that, that actually is annoying to me that, you know, if they invite you in, you're an invited guest. You don't get to act surprised afterwards and then come in with a, you know, with an armed security team and, and threaten to do bodily harm. Well, they didn't threaten bodily harm, but I would say I was, it was one of the, one of the few times I was, I was a little scared for my safety. I did not have a security team with me. I don't call them that, they're friends and family. Friends and family.
Well, my understanding is there was quite a lot going on. What was the thought press, thought process behind the tactics of, of having, I understand, a bit of a circus in there? Just a distraction.
Yeah. And look, these dealers that are dealing a game that has to be physically dealt to you. Look, I was accused of intimidating their staff at a conference that I spoke at. One of the surveillance guys asked me, says, "So, your one of your tactics is to intimidate our staff?" And I go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I never said that. And I don't try to intimidate anybody. That's not my goal." Uh, you intimidate them by allowing a player to play at those stakes. They're automatically intimidated when you're pushing the value of their hold back and forth across the, the table. And some of these, uh, splits with doubles. So don't accuse me. I said, "I love everybody, especially if I'm winning. I mean, who's, who, you know, who don't I love?" But you do that, it's in your training, and it's your responsibility. Now, if you're accusing me of being firm on your rules that you negotiated and holding you to your rules, that's on you. You didn't train them properly to deal that game. Now, in some of these houses, they're dealing with, uh, they're dealing with unions, so they have to rotate people through high-limit. And, you know, that's to your disadvantage. But maybe you just need to train your staff better. But that's not on me. They make a mistake, I'm supposed to eat that? Oh, I've had hands that sit there for the weekend and wait for Gaming Control to come in on a Monday. They could call them on the weekend. They think that you're going to give in at some point. No, if you made a mistake, I'm going to hold you to your own rules, and I'm not going to eat that mistake. So at that level, if you're getting a free bet, yeah, that's, you get one of those an hour. And, yeah, they have employees that will make more than one mistake an hour. And you, as a player, I'm just saying straight up, you should not eat that mistake. You have to hold them to their own rules. They negotiated those terms. They're big boys, big boys and girls, and they know what they're doing, trust me. You make a mistake, they are not going to come back and correct you. You, oh, you probably shouldn't have hit that. Really? You think they're ever going to come back and tell you that? No, because they can't know your mind, nor should they. Those aren't the rules. I'll give you for instance. I had a, I had a, I don't know what it was. I'll use the one in Australia because I don't plan on ever playing there again, but probably most places. But it was, I had something like, uh, I don't know, the dealer had a, had a six showing. And it came down, I had some splits and doubles. It wound up being about $45,000 in play on my end. And it came down to the last hand. And yes, I probably would have stayed, but that's not the point. That's irrelevant. And the dealer takes the next card, had a 16, and it was a five. Well, that five would have made my hand, my last hand. I did not give a signal. So I call them out on it. They wait around an hour goes by. The tables, the game's held up, and they're getting annoyed with it. I look, I'm just holding you to your rules. They like, "Don, you know, you would not have hit this." I'm sorry, it was a four was the next hand, whatever it was, and they had a 16, they would have made a 20, and they would have beat three out of the four hands that I had up after the splits and doubles. And I'm looking, I go, "It's irrelevant whether or not I would have, could have, should have. These are your rules. I didn't wave it off." And they're like, "Well, we're going to burn that hand." Or, and then eventually they go, "Well, we'll just muck the whole hand and, and you just start over." I go, "No, I'm not, not acceptable either. I want the four." And then the next card was a bust card for the dealer, but they wouldn't even reveal that. That, that hand sat there for the rest of the weekend until somebody from Gaming Control came in and made a, made a ruling on it.
What, what was his ruling?
Ruling was is he didn't signal, and the next card under their rules, the next card is his card. You know, you can't make a mistake. And then after the fact, say you want that card or burn it because you don't want him to have that card. You made the mistake. He saw the card. That's your mistake. He gets to choose if he wants it or not.
Did they uninvite you after that?
Yes. Yeah. Did they feel like you were taking a shot, or they, they just didn't like it?
They just didn't like it. Yeah. I don't know what they thought. It's irrelevant what they thought. Yeah. Right. So I, I have, I have a particular problem with anybody in life. We come to terms, we come to rules. It's like playing any sporting event, and here are the terms of the rules. But then in the middle of the game, after a play happens, you want to change the rule? No, you don't get to do that. That was the rule. Then you want to negotiate the rule going forward? That's fine. Well, they did negotiate after they lost that. They negotiated the rule going forward for me. You're uninvited. All right. That's the same for a home, you know, card game. If, if someone's changing the rules mid-way, it's just, yeah, you don't get to do that. That's right. That's okay. If I come to your home, we have established what the rules of poker are, but now in the middle of a hand, you want to change the rules of the game? No, that's not fair. Yeah, that's not sportsmanship.
So going back to Atlantic City, how did things end? Was it kind of all at once? All the casinos talked, or did it take, did it take maybe a year for them to kind of dry up?
Took about eight months. Yeah. Even the Trop invited me back after that night. So after that, eight months, two more times. Two more times after Atlantic City kind of dried up.
How did you find other places to play?
Just, it just got tougher to where it's, it's not really worth it unless you're going to play for some comps or something. Or you, I have friends that are in on that side that actually have casino licenses or in the business, and they'll give you a square game and just say, "Look," or they'll just give you a room. One friend of mine just says, "Look, come stay, come have dinner, just don't play." And that's fine too. But, you know, that up front. Now, if I was to go and stay at their property and then try to play under disguise, that would be dishonest of me. I wouldn't do that.
So when you're playing at that, at those levels, what kind of comps are we talking about?
Yeah, it really comes down to what can you think of. I mean, you can ask for things that you, you, you would, you know, there's only so many private jets they can send for you. They ask when the shmoozing starts, it starts before you leave your house. You haven't even initiated even making a trip to somebody's property yet. If they're pitching, they're sending a jet, they're rolling out the red carpet for you until they start taking things off the table, which is usually at that level what happens. It's not about a $5,000 hand or a $5,000 win on a single. We're talking multi-million dollar trips. So it's usually, they don't just cut you off because I think that they always think that they can get that back like some players. Yeah, but they, they start, "Okay, we're not going to send the jet for you anymore." And then it's, "We're not going to, we're going to give you a 10% discount, not 20 or 22 and a half percent discount. We're not giving you a discount anymore." Until it's, you know what, it's not even worth our time to try and police this with you. How about we just, we just don't want the variance. Not worth it.
And how have you seen comps change over the years?
Oh, they're, they're, they're drastically different than they used to be. I mean, it's, it's so much more rigid than it used to be. I think a lot of that has to do with, uh, it just, very, very corporate. I call it. They're just, uh, there's a scale that somebody has created somewhere that, and they're just saying, "Look, we're willing to give up, uh, let's say that, uh, I, I remember when Jim Murren, he was in the documentary that I did, said something like, they're willing to give up X amount of percentage of, uh, of what their expected value is from a player upfront." No more. Not expected value either. They're beating you out of that, and then they're going to, you know, they're going to make up a number that they're willing to accept to get you to come back in. But they're not willing to do it based on EV to the house anymore. They need to know that they're making money off of you before they're giving you anything. Yeah. And I'm talking the biggest properties out there that would be MGM, Caesars, the Wynn. They're, they're just not going to give you excessive comps. They're not going to give you big comps. They're not going to send a private jet for you unless they know that you're that you're very, very likely to dump out money to them.
Where do you see the future of professional gambling going, and even in light of the tighter comps and more regulation?
I don't know. Yeah, I mean, obviously they can't continue. Look, I, I respect that they can't continue to stay in business. They're letting guys come in and beat them out of millions of dollars. That makes, makes good business sense for them to want to avoid that type of a player. Uh, if you're on the other side, as a player, you're, you know, you're probably going to be operating as more of a grind business. You're not going to be able to partner with them while you're fleecing them out of money. It just does, that's not a partnership. That is sustainable. Think about it. Your, your success is their demise, and vice versa. One of you has to lose money, or they can't be, you can't be a good partner with them. This nonsense about, "We're going to put our friends hats on today." Really? You've, I've had this happen to me many times. Is that, you know, they want to come to a family event, or come to my, my son's Bar Mitzvah, we're going to have it at the casino. Really? We're putting our friends hats on today? We're now friends? You've never invited me to a personal barbecue at your home, but yet today we're going to have our friends hats on, and you want me to come and play at your casino at your son's Bar Mitzvah? I find that to be dishonest. Don't do that. To me, it's disgraceful. And all those hosts that have done that, they know who they are. And I, I, I just, it's disingenuous at the s that you've played.
Have you seen casinos kind of preying on someone that seems to have a problem in the high-limit rooms?
Yeah, yeah. And some people that have self-excluded, and they know they're there, and still let them play. And to me, that's dishonest and should be, that should be a criminal violation under the law for a casino to do that. This gets back to, if you've excluded someone, uh, you, you have no problem finding those people when you've excluded them. Why are you inviting them through mailers to begin with? Again, the practice is dishonest. So somebody has self-excluded, it's because they've self-declared that they've recognized they have a problem. You do have a responsibility to abide by that self-exclusion, and there should be more teeth in the law that requires a casino to do that, or there should be big penalties for them. I think, I, I absolutely agree. They say, "Oh, somebody could make a mistake." Really? All right, so correct the mistake right away. But I, I have known cases where they are there all weekend. You know, they're there, you know, they're self-excluded, and you're still letting them play. That's dishonest.
Talking about people playing all weekend, well, can you describe the longest session you've ever pulled without taking a break?
Probably about three days. Almost 72 hours. Wow. And mind you, well, look, no secret, I used to like drinking. I don't drink these days, but, uh, well, choosing not to drink today. Not saying I'm never going to drink again. I just, uh, find a healthier lifestyle for myself right now. But, uh, we were playing at the, uh, where was it? Uh, Bruce Willis was there. Yeah. Oh, a shame what happened with with that guy. I mean, with the, uh, brain disease. Bruce is a big gambler. And he was, it was a Borgata, Atlantic City. And I, when I got there, I got there on a Thursday night. He was playing with another friend of mine. I don't know if Eric is still playing these days. But they were playing at the craps table. And then a group of us that were big players went into the pit, and we were playing, all sitting down to play blackjack. And Bruce was at the table. I was there, two other friends. Might have been a fifth person there. Now, there are just four of us. And it, it got too difficult for me to sit there with Bruce. He was playing first base, I was playing third base, and then the two guys in between us. And it got too difficult for me to, to try and manage the game the way I need to play it to have a chance at beating him. So it was really more of just a, I call it a crap shoot because I don't throw dice. Never tried it professionally because I never could do what I hear some people were able to do. I don't know if anyone can do what some people say they can do with with dice. I did meet one person, okay, and was shocked that it could be done. Wow. And then proven in front of me that it could be done. Uh, we'll get back to that. So, yeah, that marathon started then. Playing with, with, with Bruce. And that went on for three days. And finally, I'd had enough. I, I've never taken drugs in my life. Drinking was about all I've ever done. I figured, look, gambling, drinking, probably, I don't need a third vice. So I just never took anything else up. I don't know what kept him awake. But, uh, I mean, that guy was awake when I started. He was down a million dollars at the craps table. Came over to, uh, play blackjack. I don't know. I think he was up and down at the blackjack table. And then I got away from that table because I, I couldn't play it the way I wanted to play it. It was, and there was just too many people around. Oh my God, they were all there to watch Bruce Willis play. And I'm like, "I don't need this. I'm going to go find a different table." I left for about an hour and came back. Everybody else had cleared out. There was nobody left in high-limit. And I sat down at a table to play. And Bruce shows up out of nowhere. Like, where this guy is he hiding around there? But, but no. And, and he's says, "I said, listen, I don't want to talk. I'm just here to play." He goes, "So am I." So we sat there and played for, this was the second day. He was still there playing between craps and, uh, and, uh, and in high-limit. And we played for about another 40 hours or so. Wow. And it was, that was a marathon for me. That was a, that was a long stretch. I got ahead from where I was. I think I was down at some point $600,000. So I got, I made that back and was ahead about the same amount that I was down. And then I was too tired to continue. And I said, "I got to go." So he got his million back and was ahead of million. Uh, he was, and at the towards the end, he wasn't even playing his own hands. He was only piggybacking playing on top of my hands. Oh, wow. So I, I, I didn't complain to the house. I just said, "So I'm playing, I don't know what it was then, but I'm playing. You're letting me play $20,000 a hand or up to $60,000 a hand, or 3x $20. I can spread any number of hands up to $60,000, whether it's on one, two, or three, and any denomination I want to spread them. So whatever I'm betting, he's coming over the top. And you're betting him, letting him bet one and a half times what I'm betting. So if I'm betting 20, you're letting him go to 30. If I bet 60, you're letting him go to 90. Wow. On top of my bet. And they go, "Well, he has special rules." I go, "[ __ ] I thought I had special rules. But okay, fair enough. I'm, I'm limited to this. So." And so he was able to get even and then went ahead of million. I left the property. Was staying at, at a beach house at the time. And when I went back about 10 hours later, got some sleep, went back, he was still up. He was playing at the craps table again. Unbelievable. Advantage play. My guess is it started just for the money. To the end, is it just about the money, or at some point did that motivation change?
Where was I? Enjoy the game. You don't play for the length of time that, you know, the hours that I put in, or or learn how to play properly for the length of time that it took, and with the people that it took to do the rehearsals, if you don't enjoy the game. You, I enjoy the game. I like, uh, reading about what you guys are doing with, uh, training, uh, young squires to come up and hopefully beat the casinos. I think that's cool. Yeah. And, and, and if you can train some, uh, some youngsters to, uh, get involved and beat the casinos, I say God bless them. Yeah.
Did you do any of the rebate plays internationally, or just in the US?
No, we did it all over the world. Or I did it all over the world.
And was any part of it different? Did they treat you the same way?
Um, the controls are are a little stiffer. They have, um, you know, the rules are different overseas where they have different, I don't know whether they're guidelines or laws. You read through them, there's all this language about being fit and proper. To me, what is fit and proper? You know, yeah, us Americans are more like, it's not a gentleman's handshake that, I don't know how to put it where it doesn't sound like one side's taking advantage over the other side. There's no gentleman's agreement that I'm just going to come in and write you a check. If anybody even writes a check anymore, it's, to me, it's not like that. If, you know, if you make an agreement, I'm going to hold you to it. As I said before, like in Australia. But that's, you know, this is not a, this is not being a fit and proper person. If you hold somebody to their own rules, that's just being firm. And they might consider that to be, that's not gentlemanly.
Never had a casino refuse to pay or anything like that?
Um, well, yeah, Australia, they don't want to pay the hand. And in the end, it was, it was sorted out, but, took a few days. That's crazy. They held, and then you're uninvited. They held the table for a couple of days. Look, all this, all this gets interesting at that level, and that wasn't even for large stakes. We're just talking normal table limits of whatever it was, five or $10,000 a hand. So just interesting what length they'll go to. Like you said, you got backed off for winning $5,000. Wow. Uh, I don't know where you're playing. What is that, somebody's, uh, roadside gas station in Washington state?
Where played it all. Played it all. I mean, I've hit the double Queen of Hearts and Spoke Cam, Washington, at a game. And then they said, "Come back on Monday, you know, when the banks sorted out." And got back and they were out of business. The game. Yeah, the game didn't exist anymore, and they never reopened. We had, we had casinos to say, "We'd like to write you a check for the balance." We'd say, "No, no, we'll, we'll wait for cash." Well, that happened with with the Trop. Their check wasn't good for a long time. Oh, wow. And the bank won't let you, at that level, the bank will not let you deposit it because I was trying to deposit it to get it stamped NSF so I could do something with it.
Legally, and all the bank would tell me is, "Is you have to go back to the maker." So you got to go back to the casino. And is there a problem? Give us a couple days. Give us a couple days. We'll... couple days turned into more than 10 days. Wow. And then finally, it was good.
Were you sweating that they were not going to honor it? I was actually sweating that they were going to hand... you know, between I'd heard about Ron Meyer beating them. I'm like, "[ __ ] are they going to tell Ron and I, 'Here's the keys to the property, new owners. And guess what? We haven't made payroll yet because that's due too.'"
So I said, I wanted to come back around to the Phil Ivy stuff. Phil's a great guy, by the way. He's, he's a very stand-up guy. Yeah, he's, he's someone I would not hesitate to do a deal, uh, on a handshake with, where most people I would, would just pass. Yet the casinos honored what they had offered you and didn't honor what they offered him. What do you think? Why do you think that is?
I don't think that's 100% accurate and not really prepared to go into detail about what may or may not have happened in the past with with, uh, Borata. Okay? I don't think Borata honored everything with me because sometimes they didn't give the discount that they were supposed to. And then you're negotiating on the back end. And in my case, you're negotiating from a position of weakness because I post up. So they've already got my money. You know, now I've, I've either got to sue them or I got to start negotiating. And to me, I think that that's dishonest. Not saying they were dishonest. What, whatever happened, you know, was settled and everybody walked away and we're, we're fine today. But I actually sat with Phil during one of those sessions when he was doing the Ed sorting. I didn't know what he was doing. I didn't care. Yeah. Uh, it was...
We had switched watches. We both had... well, I only wear this watch now because it's my favorite. My children gave this to me as a birthday present. And these, I mean, once what you, you know, you start tracking your heart rate, your exercise, and everything off your watch, you realize how dependent you become on these things. Yeah. It's no longer handheld. You're just wearing it all the time anyway. So we had switched watches. We were both told that we had a one-off Audemars Piguet. And mine was rose gold and his was platinum, but they were identical except they were different metal. And we were drinking in a London nightclub one night and we switched watches just for the heck of it with the intent to switch back at some point. And I remember thinking to myself, as, you know, I'm like, "Oh, I got one over on the great Phil Ivy. This watch is where this is platinum. It's worth more." The next day I check online and I go, "Damn, rose gold is actually worth more than the platinum right now." He didn't do it purposely. It was just funny. It was coincidental that at some point that month it had flipped and rose gold was worth slightly more than the platinum. But, and we were going to switch back at one point. But then I didn't see Phil for six or seven months after seeing him just about every month, every place I traveled to, Australia, run into him, London, I would run into him, here in the States, I'd run into him in AC and here in Vegas or or some obscure place down on the Gulf or... Wow. It just kept running, unintentional, just kept running into each other. And then all of a sudden we didn't see each other. No biggie.
So I happen to be in Atlantic City. I'm playing at Borata and I hear Phil Ivy's there. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm wearing his watch." And I go, "Where is he?" He's in the back room and he's playing Baccarat. I'm like, "Well, that's odd. I didn't know he played Baccarat." Whatever. And I stop in the doorway and I'm like, "Hmm, something not right about this picture." And knowing Phil, you know, Phil's a good-looking guy. He's a bit of a ladies' man. I think he's, he's settled down a lot since then. Well, we all have. We get older. We settle down. We calm down. Whatever it's called. And there's this... not to discredit Kelly or her looks. I, I now know her and she's a nice person. But I look in there and I see this frumpy looking Asian girl sitting next to him. I go, "Oh no, no, no. Something's not right. He is not sleeping with that girl. There's no way. That is not his type. She's there for a reason. She has to be." And there was another older lady sitting to her right. And I go, "Looks like her grandmother or something." I'm like, "Really? There's something really wrong with this whole picture." And I go in and I sit down next to him. He's like, "Oh, now's not a good time." Right? You go. I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, now's a perfect time. I don't, I don't need to know anything other than she's there for a reason. I'm going to sit here and try and mimic as bets." And did for... I kept trying to argue to get... they weren't letting me bet. He was betting plaques. Won't say the denominations or whatever, but he had a very good run there. And I think he won another five million. Not that I wanted to disclose the amounts or anything, but his case is all in in the lawsuits where I didn't have a lawsuit with them. As you correctly pointed out. And was asked by them, you know, "What were you doing?" I think I think the way they were asking, they were trying to determine whether or not they can join me in the lawsuit with him. And I'm like, you know, I just said, "Look, he wasn't sleeping with a girl. That was the tell for me. If it were a poker game, I would have said, 'Oh no, that something's not right here.' I didn't need to know any more than that." And I was willing to risk a half a million dollars betting on that. Wow. And I was right. So you can call me as a witness or you can call me in and join me in the lawsuit if that's your intent, but that's going to be my testimony. And it's the truth. So you want to embarrass yourselves? Go for it. Never heard from again. That was it.
Did, did you switch watches back? Yeah, yeah. Not then. Yeah. Not then. Yeah. He wouldn't look at me. It was so funny.
Are there any new projects or ventures that you're working on that you want to share? Yeah, I never get tired of racing. I watch horse races every day. People ask me, "Aren't you ever tired?" I go, "Never." I'm never tired of going to the horse races. I never get tired of watching races. I could do it every day. Not 24/7, but it's always exciting to me. And, uh, I enjoy it. I grew up with it. Uh, as I said, I was lucky enough to be born into an industry that I adore. I love it. I don't want to do anything else in life. And, uh, and I love participating in racing and helping racing in every way that I can. The Permanently Disabled Jockey Fund, the PDJF, is a, is a great charity. And, uh, my other favorite charity, I try to stick with charities that are relative to horse racing now, uh, is Amplify Horse Racing. They have a mentorship/apprenticeship type of a program where they are an outreach program to educate, uh, inner city and, and youth in general as to a career path in racing. You think about it, in horse racing, we have everything. What do you want to go into? Want to go into broadcast studio? We have broadcast level studios. We have prime time all the way down to if you want to do podcasting, we have that. Want to be a tradesman? Want to be a carpenter, electrician, a farmer? We have all that. Uh, not everybody has to be a jockey. Yeah. Even though I'm 61 and weighed 108 when I was riding, I mean, not everybody is built for that. Uh, and, and maybe you're not athletic. Maybe you want to be a mathematician/programmer. We have that. The mentorship program careers. Yeah. That's, that's really cool. I'm a big supporter of this group. I think the work that they're doing is really important in racing. Just invite every, every youth, come and take a look. Yeah. Maybe it's not for you, but just come take a look. I would, I would say that we probably have something that would interest you and would love to show you. I'd personally take you to the races with me. That's cool. Reach, reach out to me personally. You'll come on a, we'll do a field trip. Awesome.
How can people reach out to you? I have social media. They, they can DM me on social media and somebody from my team will say, "Hey, we, we have some candidates here that reach, reach out to Don about Amplify." Not, not about High Stakes Advantage again. Yeah. No, no. I don't really want to. They can reach out to you about mentoring in high stakes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you want to be apprenticed at Blackjack, that's what we do. You want to be apprenticed in in horse, uh, horse racing. And I followed your program a bit and, and really respect a lot of the work that that you and your colleagues are doing here in this space. And, uh, it's, uh, it's good stuff.
Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing your story and, and, uh, thank you for pointing people towards some of these really, really cool, uh, nonprofits. You love, uh, watching horse races every day. I love seeing people take casinos' money. I love seeing it too. Unless they're... well, I have some friends that are lenses, so I have to be delicate or sensitive to that. That I understand. I don't, so I don't have to be sensitive. If you're an AP, I, I would prefer that you not play at Muckleshoot Tribe because I'm friends with a lot of tribal council members. And plenty of other casinos to play. There's lots of them up there.