How to Stop Ruminating and Start Living a Non-Anxious Life | Feat. Dr. John Delony

Today you'll be learning how to soothe your anxious mind and stop ruminating. My guest is Dr. John Deloney, host of The Dr. John Deloney Show and author of a new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life. Dr. John, so good to see you again. Grateful for your hospitality. Thank you so much.

Yeah, oh, it's good to talk with you again today. And this, this subject in particular, like I was thrilled to learn about your new book coming out because this is really hard when we get stuck in these, like, anxious thoughts. So I know that you have some life experience with this yourself, as we all do. Is it fair to say that that's where the origin story of this book came from, or was there a different path towards?

Um, I think it was a combination of both. People kept asking what was my journey out of a really anxious life. But more importantly, I keep, I travel all over the country meeting with groups and folks behind closed doors, and it, it's a consistent drumbeat of people trying to figure out how to be well in a really chaotic time in human history. And, um, and it was, it's, uh, I think we're going about it sideways. And the, the things that we are doing that otherwise would normally work are just, we're not being honest about how ineffective they are. And there's not really another roadmap. And so that was, that was my attempt to, with this book here, is to lay out a framework for, here's how to build a life where you're not anxious all the time, and you're not depressed all the time. And we, we can get, we can go on rabbit holes there. But, um, so even saying that out loud is a little bit controversial these days. So that's the Genesis of the book.

Yeah, no, definitely. Well, and I get that because it has felt more fraught, just in the world lately. And, you know, even, even for people who have had fairly well-developed skills and strategies for being okay, you know, when things get too much, those aren't enough anymore. And so we need to double down or learn new things, new strategies, a new, new map, as you say. So we know that rumination can be a component of anxiety. That's part of what makes us feel elevated, kind of attached to thoughts or ideas that don't feel great. Can you take us in a little bit to your understanding of rumination and how it contributes to the experience of anxiety, or, or depression, for that matter?

I, I'm working on a hypothesis. I'm glad I get to talk to somebody who's way smarter than I am about this. In grad school, they taught us that anxiety, that like OCD, like these loops are a derivative of anxiety. And then I think even in the latest DSM, they branched out on their own. Um, but that anxiety and depression sit separate from each other. And then downstream is hoarding, and downstream is OCD, and some of these repetitive behaviors. I was recently introduced to some brain maps where they were, they can track the loops that OCD travels in your brain. And I started to wonder, what if we have it backwards? What if the root of so much of our mental health is just simply our mind catching itself in a loop? And it's passing it these thoughts back to the response, back to the thoughts, back to the response. Because so much of our world has left the human body. And we do so much of our lives in our brain. We text, we don't talk. We send photos, we don't show up in person. Um, we sit down and type emails, we don't go across the hall and have conversations. We've completely removed the physical life out of our existence and we've shoved it up in our head. And we do all of our work in our head, which is kind of cool. I'm glad I'm not shoveling concrete all day. But I think there's a physiological toll. So at the end of the day, rumination is simply your mind telling itself stories in some sort of anticipatory way to try to circumvent bad things that may happen. Or as the great Brené Brown says, it's dress rehearsing tragedy. It's practicing a conversation. It's practicing, what are you going to do when your husband dies in a car wreck because he's late coming home from work? Or you find out that she's been cheating on you. It's just this rehearsal, this rehearsal, this rehearsal. And it was news to me that our body has one fight or flight response, whether there's a bear standing in front of us or whether we are consciously conjuring the bear in our minds. It's still going to kick off the same system. And so we can literally bury ourselves just sitting in the shower, having an imaginary conversation with our boss. We can literally choose to die younger by having an imaginary conversation with the guy in front of us that just cut us off on the way to, way to work, right? Absolutely. And because our body's like, all right, it's time to fight, even though there's not a real threat there. And so that's my understanding of rumination. And it, and it simply has begun to bury people, myself included.

Yeah, right. Me too. I, I think everybody can relate to having been just stuck in those loops. And I'm so glad you are talking about the relationship just between our thoughts and the way we feel. Because that blew my mind too. I didn't understand that at one point in my life that that the things we think about have the same, um, impact on our physiology as things that are happening right in front of us. And the, the things we're visualizing or imagining can impact us in the same way. When our brain recognizes, you've heard the term neuroception, right? So it's, it's your brain is scanning 24/7, 365, your environment. It will recognize threats or things that it thinks are threats before I even have the thought. And then it is firing the systems to go to battle or to run away or to pull back or to, like, right, to freeze. And then, then I'm going to conjure up a story as to why I feel that way. And that's why I look around and go, I'm starting to feel anxious. It's her fault, right? I'm, I'm flipping the news channels and suddenly I feel anxious. And it must be that political party's fault, right? So I'm instantly creating a story to backfill this threat response that my body's kicked off. So it's just a, it's just a mess. It's an absolute mess. It, yeah, it goes way too. That we have these physiological reactions, and then our brain, hopefully, comes along and creates a narrative, like a reason why that may or may not be true.

Yeah, it's almost never true. But it's, wow. Well, and, and I love too, the very interesting point that you brought up when we were first talking around the impact of living in a, a world, a society, a culture that is increasingly digital, meaning that it's all in our heads compared to being physical creatures in the physical world. But also like, not being aware of how disconnected and, and cut off from the physical world we are in some ways, because it's just, it's normal. It's normal. I remember about 10 years ago, he's a close friend of mine, he's a college president, and he was my boss at the time. And I was thinking some really awful things about him. Like, I thought his leadership was terrible. I thought the way he was treating people was awful. And all of a sudden, a message pops up on my phone, and it's him. And we go back and forth, totally benign conversation about something completely. We're back and forth texting, back and forth texting, back and forth texting. And later on that night, I remember having a panic, like, did I say that to him? Like, what, what did I say versus what did I think versus what did I communicate? Because used to, and I sound like a 500-year-old man who walked uphill both ways in the snow to school, I know when I say that. But used to, I had my thoughts, and those were private. And then I spoke things out. Now I text them out. So I'm still, everything is in my head. And I think we're getting jumbled as to what we thought and what we texted and what we said and what we DM'd and to who and to how, right? And it's just becoming a big mess. Even up to 25 years ago, and all before human history, nobody could hear the conversation you and I are having unless they were in our room. Room. And now they put in headphones. And I, I find this. I'm traveling the country, people will come up and they will hug me and they'll say, "How's Josephine?" My daughter. And my first thought is, I don't know you. You better not say my daughter's name. Like, who are you? But they've been listening to hours of me having conversations, deep, intimate conversations. And their bodies are like, "We know that guy. He's safe." And so it's a, just a new frontier. We run. And then we're trying to not be anxious, right? We're trying to not be depressed. And our bodies are just going, "Hey." Right. Well, like a certain level of paranoia, almost comes with like being more exposed in a lot of ways. A new frontier. It's a new frontier.

So the whole idea for me is, what if we stop trying to be not anxious? What if that wasn't the goal, to try to stop anxiety or to stop depression? What if instead, we focused all of our, because, because if we look at it, and we're really honest, and, and you and I are both mental health folks, that's our world, that's our, our tribe. More people are in counseling under, under the tutelage of a mental health professional than ever before in human history. People who went to grad school, got tons of hours of of training and practice. Yeah. More people are, are taking psychotropic medications than ever before in human history. And the depression, anxiety trend line is continuing to be almost vertical. So we have to be honest and say, okay, maybe something else is in the air, because everybody's still getting sick. Yeah. And if I back out, what if I quit trying to be not anxious? And I let the anxiety, my body's just natural alarm system, let me know where I'm not safe, or where I'm lonely, or where my body's out of control. And what if I created a world where my alarms weren't going off all the time, trying to get my attention to tell me I'm not safe? And that's a much more challenging conversation, but it feels, on over the long term, much more simple and secure way of going about it.

You're saying to respect your emotional guidance system as opposed to, and shut it down. Yes. Yeah. And take influence from these feelings and, and respond to them. Um, saying, maybe my values, this is telling me something important about my values, or telling me something about this relationship that I should listen to, rather than trying to, as you say, take the batteries out or anesthetize myself. I used to tell my college students, um, I'll never forget doing a, we should do a survey with the, especially with the law students, older, um, professional students. And I'll never forget doing a survey. I would do it at the beginning of every year, and then I'd go read the data back to them. And it never failed that a high percentage of them, in the high eights or 90%, would answer the question, "I need a few drinks to feel sexy, to feel engaged in intimacy." And I, what I would always tell them is, if you have to override your body's innate systems, that I don't want to do something, listen to your body. Don't numb those alarms. Don't try to cover them up with a pile of pillows and, and some dirt so that you pretend they're not going off, because they are, right? If you're violating your own core self, if you have to drink to accomplish something for somebody else. So yeah, listen to these alarm systems and ask yourself what they're trying to tell you. Sometimes they're just telling you nonsense. But sometimes you're trying to save your life. Trying to save your life.

Yeah, say more about that idea. We've seen the diseases of despair literature, right? Um, particularly people of means are dying of addiction and organ disease failures and suicide. You ignore the alarms long enough, it goes back to like the, like just using a smoke alarm in your, in your kitchen. Right? And we may have talked about this last time, but anxiety is just a smoke alarm in your kitchen, trying to let you know, hey, something's on fire. And if I spend all of my time trying to shut the alarm off, I can finally turn it off. I could knock it down with a broom, or I could take the batteries out. But my house is going to burn down around me. I haven't solved the problem. I've just stopped the alarm system. And so there's something about going out in the front yard while the alarm is going and trying to figure out what's on fire. And what's on fire in our C current culture is we're so lonely. We spend so much time in our heads, ruminating and spinning and spinning. And we're cranking up our defense system and shutting it down and cranking it up and it shuts down. And we have all these challenges that we've created to try to stop these alarms, instead of doing the hard work of dealing with our lives. So the real work here, how, how to stop ruminating, is what you're saying, is what would happen if you listened to that? What is that alarm system trying to tell you over and over again? What maybe do you need to pay attention to? And that, that could be the path forward here, that you'll stop ruminating once you start listening to yourself.

Well, and with rumination, I think it's twofold. There's the acute, there's like, I need to stop this right now. And, yeah, it's when I recognize there's no benefit to rumination. It's not helpful. And so, um, there will be times I'm walking through the living room and I'll just yell out, "Nope." And my wife will just roll her eyes because she knows I'm stopping an imaginary conversation I'm having with my boss. I'm just, I'm not having this conversation. Um, and I know that when I'm tired, and when I've eaten a bunch of garbage, and I haven't exercised in a while, and my marriage is kind of on thin ice, that's when my brain starts spinning up stories. And so, um, it's, I think it's a both. In, I think there's a stopping it in the acute phase. I'm not going to feed it. And, um, I'm going to create a world where it's less necessary.

Well, you know what? I think we're T, what we're talking about here, I'm sure you've had this conversation with with clients and, and people as well, but like, there's a difference between anxiety and fear. And that's what I hear you saying. That like, that unhelpful piece, that anxiety, that rumination, but that is different than fear. We, we need to listen to fear. Like, what is your emotional guidance system telling you about? And, and the, um, I, I wonder if that could be part of where you go in your book, is, is how to tell the difference between what are these emotional signals that are just noise, just me machinations, stuff that isn't helpful, versus what, what are my feelings telling me that I need to listen to? Because that, I think, can be difficult and confusing sometimes in itself.

I think, Claire, I think clarifying, that's a great call out there. There is actually a section on fear and versus fear and stress and anxiety. What's the difference? But I think, um, the tiger that just popped in the, the front of your cave, that's, that's fear. You should be scared of that. There's a tiger in front. Laying in bed at night and thinking, "Okay, what happens if there's a tiger? What if a tiger comes? Tiger came." Last time I heard there's one. That's rumination. It does no good. It doesn't help. And so what we have to, the tigers are going to show up in our life. That they, they just are. Parents are going to pass away, loved ones are going to cheat, um, kids are going to get sick. That, that is, that's life. So spending a life trying to either pretend tigers don't come, or to try to kill all the tigers so they don't exist, that's a waste of time. They will show up out of nowhere. If I do the hard work, and I'm laying in bed and I say, "Okay, I've got a trap set at the front of the place. I've got a back door that's got a great exit to it. Um, all of us are trained on the tiger protocol. I've done the best I can with what I have. I'm gonna go to sleep." And so in my world, like, just doing the research for for this book, I didn't understand how close the relationship to clutter in your house is to anxiety. And your body will start to get your attention. I didn't know that. I didn't understand. There's a great Japanese proverb, "Every object in your home is having a conversation with you." You walk into your closet and your shirts are like, "Why aren't you wearing me? Oh, you gotten too fat. You can't wear me anymore." Or "Are you getting too skinny now?" Or "What about your M?" Or I walk down in my basement and it's like, "Wow, you're just going to leave us trash like this? Great example for your kids." And there's books on my shelf that like, "Oh, you're not going to read? Are you going to stay stupid forever? You're just going to be dumb? Is that, is that good for you?" And my guitars on the wall are like, "Oh, are you too cool to play music now? I guess you're too old and grown up and boring." And so all of our junk is always talking to us. All the dishes in the sink, the unmade bed. Things are always talking. So there's a direct link to clutter. And there's a direct link to how much money you owe. Your frontal lobe can really know, "You got a great deal. You got five years, no interest. It's a great deal." Your amygdala knows, "If one thing happens at work, we lose our house, we lose our food, we lose our car." And it's not going to let you sleep until it's safe. It would be failing at its job if it let you have a good night's sleep knowing that just one wrong thing you say at work and you're homeless. And so if you look at your calendars, at all these things that we just take for granted in this wild world we've created for ourselves, and our bot brains are just trying to be like, "Hey, not safe. Not safe. Not safe. Not safe." And it's just the alarms are getting so loud. And then it comes out in back pain, and knee pain, and ruminations, and all kind of weird things. Um, and I think it's just stepping back, saying, "Okay, where am I disconnected? And where am I not safe? And where am I not in control of my own life?" I mean, your smoke alarm doesn't go off if there's not a fire, right? Unless it's defective. And that's an occasional thing. And then you deal with that. This, this is interesting. And it's reminding me of something that I've been thinking about a lot lately, um, is the power of like, different parts of our brains. You know, we have the, the thinking part of our brain that we're very fond of and pleased with. We are making conscious decisions that are entirely in our control. And we have all these reasons why we do what we do. But there's also a giant and very powerful part of our brain that is incredibly aware. It is non-conscious. And it is just picking up all of the sensory information from every part. And it's, it's creating tension. It's creating feelings of danger. It, it doesn't let you forget that maybe you are unsafe if there's too much debt in your, your life. Um, that's what was coming up for me is you were talking about that relationship with clutter, that there are all these other operating systems that are contributing to feeling safe or not in the world that may not always be conscious. But we need to pay attention.

Aren't that right? Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me that he got in a lot of trouble. John Stewart had a rant about COVID, uh oh, on Stephen Colbert show. But what he said was, "We should be really thankful that we have science solving a lot of these problems that were caused by science." And I started laughing, thinking, that's very similar to our thinking, right? Like, I'm always having to think my way out of problems that I created just by thinking about things too much, right? And at some point, there's a, let's, let's change the way we're living our lives. And I'm confident these alarm systems will begin to, yeah, settle out on their own.

Well, and if this is okay, as we've been talking, I have been like accumulating curiosity questions. Just about very, you said, so we're, and we're going totally off the map. Like, I, I had my list of things to talk to Dr. John about. Like, no, let's just go in a totally different direction. So you said a few minutes ago, um, your observation that more people are in counseling than ever before, more people are on antidepressants than ever before. And I don't know how old your kids are, but I, I just was, uh, interested to see a report that came out recently, particularly about teenage and pre-teen girls, and just the mental health, um, I mean, there's no other word for it than crisis, with self-harm. And it's just so awful. So I'm curious to know, what do you make of that? So much more treatment, so much more accessibility, lowered stigma around getting help, but the, it's like the problem has, the need has become greater. Yeah. What do you?

I'll make a quick comment on one of the things you mentioned, and then I'll, I'll kind of give some insight there. I, the great Terry Real, Terrence Real, um, yeah, he's a master therapist. He, he pulled the, the blanket back for me on male depression in a way years ago. I think that if we were to look at a more holistic picture of our kids, I think our boys are struggling too. It just looks different. I think girls are more, maybe classic, they fall more classically into some of the, the diagnostic categories or some of the behaviors. But I think our boys are melting too. They're just melting. Um, I think depression, ex, I think all these kids are just melting. I think they're just melting. Um, I think if I back out of the whole system, it feels like the house is flooding, and we're keep yelling, "We need more boats! We need more boats! We need more boats!" Right? And nobody's saying, "Hey, why don't we just turn the water off?" Like, let's start there. Let's find the leak in the house. And if I'm honest with myself, I think we've created created lives that our bodies were not designed to live in. They just aren't designed to have this much stimulation, this much communication from this many people all the time. And it wasn't designed to work as long as we are forcing the human body to work. And it wasn't designed to worry about everything all by itself, completely and totally alone. Was it? One out of two. Um, it wasn't designed for some of these pressures we're putting on it. It wasn't designed to do life without some sort of cosmic reality. We've just completely pulled the thread on any and all religious threads and just said, "It's all stupid and dumb." And we've left a, a generation of human completely untethered to some story bigger than themselves. And so if I look back, we've just created a world that our bodies can't exist in. And then we're trying to still have great marriages and be good parents and have great sex into your 90s or whatever we're expecting these. So it's just madness. And so I, I, I think the, the path forward is, somebody's got to just turn the music off and turn the lights onto this dance and be like, "What are we doing?" And if you look back historically, cultures usually have to have a great crisis to stop the madness. My hope is we can all, we're all getting it, and everyone's like, "Okay, this isn't working." And we're seeing our young people, they're trying. Right? They're trying things like quiet quitting. And they're trying things like, "I'm just not going to do anything." Like, they're trying something different. It may not be the, the most intelligent move, but they're trying something. I think we've got to come up with a new way of saying, "This is what is success. This is what relationship health looks like. This is what I actually want and need in my life." And let's go backfill that. And I don't need to put a bunch of money on a depreciating asset that sits in my driveway for 23 out of 24 hours a day. Like all these things that we've just taken for granted. I don't need a 7,500 square foot house. Um, what if we figured out how to have a well and whole life? And then begin to wrap our heads around that. And yeah, um, I think that's a much more challenging proposition. Position. It's simple, but it's hard. But man, it's freeing when you wake up and you don't have any chains on you.

Yeah, no, that that's a very powerful idea. And really, you're going into like, what, what is the true source of the discomfort? And learning how to feel comfortable in paying attention to that, taking influence of it. And like, even going back to what you were, uh, saying about Terry, who I have also had a great pleasure of interviewing on on this. And his message is one really of this courageous conflict in like, almost fighting for intimacy that is meaningful, that is powerful, and it's difficult to do. And what you're saying is that in the absence of these things that we need, there are almost fairly predictable feelings of distress, despair, anxiety, depression, loneliness. But that instead of taking action on those and asking the harder question around, "So what do I really need to do to fix this?" It is a pursuit of, "How do I stay in this unhealthy environment and try to figure out a way to be okay?"

I think it's on your second point. I think we had, we had all of our choices taken from us, and we didn't even realize it. Like Netflix has, we don't even have to to pick up our hands and change, get the next show. It just tells you, "I know you better than you do. You're going to want to watch this next series." And it just starts, it automatically. I don't have to do anything. I can ask Siri to send pizza, and she will call and order it for me, and it just shows up at my house. And so I don't even think that we are trying to stay in these bubbles. I think we are just saying, going to the next news source that's going to tell us, "Hey, you know why you're feeling terrible? It's because of the Republicans. It's because of the Democrats." You know, "How you feel awful? Some other country is about to take over everything you've ever worked for." And so our bodies are anxious and fried and cooked. And we're just being handed scripts as to why we're frustrated. "It's your spouse. He doesn't care about you. She doesn't love you. Look how much weight he's gained." And we just keep handing scripts and handing scripts. And we just digest them without even thinking. Just digest them. Digest them. And our bodies at some point go, "I'm out. I'm out. I can't. I can't do this." And that's when you see somebody at work that makes you, that laughs at your jokes, and you tell another joke, and it feels so good to have somebody finally make you feel a little bit more alive. Or somebody at work says, "Hey, we're about to go in and invest in this thing. And you know it's stupid. But then that guy always makes it work." And he starts to cut corners. But you're gonna do it anyway. Like, right? That's when you find yourself doing things that you would never do. Um, because you're trying to come up with some real experience that backs up these narratives that are just being handed to you, handed to you, handed to you. And it just creates BL. And so really, you mentioned it was just about taking your life back. It's just saying, "I want to live a life of peace. I want to find a life where my brain and body aren't screaming at me 24/7 trying to get my attention all the time." Yeah. I want to be able to look at my wife and say, "Hey, we got separated. Like, we are too far apart here. What happened? And I want to tell you, I think I said some things that I didn't mean. I, they come across. They came out wrong. And I hurt you. And I'm sorry. That's on me. How can I, how can I love you better?" Man, if you're not buried by debt and expectation and fear, and you're scared, and you got newscasters telling you who to hate, if you don't have that, then you have space for emotional intimacy and dealing with shame and dealing with that frustration. Um, that's a totally different proposition. It's just a different way of living, right? And, and Doc, we know these people. It's the people that we sit with and we talk to them, and they leave, and you're like, they leave a trace or trail behind them. You just want to follow them. You just want to keep talking to them. You just want to stay in their presence because they just are peace, right? They just have a different way of moving through the world. And I just want people to know, it's not a mystic. It's just being intentional and making some different choices. It's, it's like almost seeing, being able to see all these different attachments or even like weights on you, and then taking active steps towards your own freedom, taking the weights off, cutting the strings. And that, that's really the path out of this.

I can't let go of this one. Another curiosity question. At the very beginning, when we first started talking, you said something about how you could live without anxiety or depression, but then you said, "But that, that idea is controversial." What, what did you mean by anxiety or depression almost questioning the need for those as being controversial, or is that what you meant?

Yeah, I think, think we've, in an effort to destigmatize mental health issues, and frustratingly, to get churches to accept them, and to get insurance companies to accept them, yeah, we've increasingly had to discuss them in medicalized language. These are broken bodies that need to be healed by people who heal broken bodies, right? And the church was saying, "You just need to believe harder, and you won't be depressed." And then somebody said, "Hey, it's actually a disease." And the church went, "Okay, cool. They're welcome here." And then insurance company said, "Hey, if they're just being lazy, I ain't helping." And then we said, "Well, actually, it's a brain disorder." And they go, "Okay, we'll pay for the." So I think we've cast a narrative that anxiety is like the flu. It's a thing you catch that will be with you, and you can't do anything about it. I think depression is spoken about like, like cancer. It just shows up in you. You caught it, and it sucks to be you, and you are always going to be depressed. And, and every insurance form you fill out from here on out, you're going to have to disclose. Job, certain jobs you want to get, you're going to have to disclose, "I have this thing." And that's what I think is is controversial because I reject that. I think there are seasons when my body wants to get my attention in a major way. So much so, in my personal life, I ignored the alarms for so long through accomplishment and achievement and getting a promotion and getting another, doing another dissertation, writing another article, whatever the, I was doing to numb. Eventually, it says, "All right, cool. You're not hearing me. I'm shutting this thing down. I'm shutting the system off because you're going to get us killed. And I'd rather lay here than get attacked by this tiger." And maybe the tiger will pass us over. Yeah. And it's, it's a last resort, right? And so I, I just reject the fact that for most of us, now, some people have like brain lesions, they've got brain disorders, they've got neurochemistry issues that are going to be with them forever. And what an amazing moment in history that we've got the resources and support and medication to help in those situations. But I think for the vast majority of folks, um, looking at mental health challenges as your body's way of trying to get your attention, not as some kind of existential curse or some kind of physical curse that's that's going to bury you forever. It's, it's a, one is a language of victimhood, and one is a language of empowerment. And so let me be the first to say, I have been buried with anxiety, like to where I couldn't move. And I think anxiety and depression are on the same trend line. I have been deeply, deeply depressed, like it's hard to move. And I think my body was trying to do the best it could to take care of me because I was making stupid choices across the board, and I wasn't dealing with abuse and all, all this other stuff that's going on. Um, and that, that's what I think is controversial. Is, is, uh, I get that's where I get some pushback.

Well, I, this is a safe space, Dr. John. I, I couldn't agree with you more. And, and I think that this is actually a very important point, though, for for our listeners to be hearing it and considering in their own lives, because you're totally right that there has been a medicalization of our emotions in some ways. For the purpose of having things taken seriously, it's like we need to be sick to have it taken seriously by the church, or certainly for insurance submissions. And you're also right that there are psychiatric disorders that need treatment. They require and deserve treatment. And then those are real and valid. But like what you're saying, that's one of the biggest reasons why I went into coaching as a profession, which is also somewhat controversial. So, you know, my background of psychologist, the marriage and family therapist, but then pursued coaching. And I had so many, you know, professional colleagues be like, "Why are you doing that?" And it was because of what you're saying, that like, if, in in the therapy world, it's diagnosis and treatment of mental health conditions. And so if you feel sad, or if you're worried about something, that means there's something wrong with you, and we need to make those feelings go away. So that's like the whole premise. Versus with a coaching model, I think is an alignment with what you're saying around, "What is that trying to tell you about your life experience?" And maybe the fact that you're feeling these things is indicative of your health rather than psychopathology. And that there's, but it can be very difficult to discern it. And I don't think that there's the language or the ideas, almost in the zeitgeist of our culture, to help people do that sort of reflection. So that if they feel anxious, there's something wrong with me, and I need to fix this, rather than like, "What happens if you lean into that?"

I, I want, when I'm anxious, I want it, I want it to be something other than choices I'm making with all of my heart. Um, and, and let me clarify, choices. I don't choose abuse. I don't choose to have a boss that yells at and screams at me. But I do choose to live, um, in a particular city or a particular state. I do choose to have an ex lifestyle or not. I do choose to not leave this job because I'm so terrified about what comes next. So these stories are cast inside of us. And I don't want to make light of it. But what I do want to do is to change the narrative a little bit and give people some light at the end of the tunnel. Because if we're all just broken and dysfunctional, and we're all this, this big giant black cloud is sitting over us, what, what, why? What are we doing? Just hanging around for another, like, another great Netflix series? Like, really? What are we doing? Like, let's create lives worth living. And for millions of people, that means for the first time, looking at your partner across the table and saying, "This is what I need, and this is what I'm asking you to be a part of." And millions of people need to leave that abusive boss. That, that boss needs to have no employees because nobody deserves to be treated like that. Even if it means a pay cut for a season. I just saw a stat before we got on the air together, and it was 80% of people are willing to take a pay cut if it meant better mental health at work. Take it. Take it. Right? Yeah. So when I say there's hard choices to be made, there's hard choices. And there are trap people everywhere. Ah, it's the word. People stuck on the margins. I get it. Totally get it. Totally get it. Totally get it. But I think there's a whole bunch of us that can say, you know what? I can, I can make big changes. I can make little changes. And they're going to be terrifying. And I'm worth it.

Well, and I'm also glad you're saying out loud that it can be difficult to do. It requires a lot of intention to take stock of your life, your career, your relationship in that way. And an enormous amount of courage to be able to do that. Where would you advise one of our listeners who's listening to this and like, "You know what? I think they're right. I need to start thinking about what changes I need to be at least considering." Like, right? Like, what is creating the rumination, the the heaviness, the attachments? Where, where do people even start?

Uh, I, I think the, the first, I give people three small steps to take. And I say, "small" factiously. They're the worst. The worse, doc. Like, none of this will be fun. The book is based on seven choices that we get to make or not make. And the first choice is, I've got to choose reality. And that's never a fun place. But here's all that means. That means I've got to sit down with a notebook by myself, maybe maybe with a trusted friend, and just write down, "Here's where I am. I thought my marriage would look like this, and here's what it actually looks like. I didn't mean to gain 100 pounds, and I did. Here's, here is what I weigh. Here's the state of my career. Here's the state of my finances." That's number one. Choose reality. Number two, I don't know anybody who can do any of this stuff alone. And so you've got to get people to walk with you. Um, like I said earlier, we have the loneliest generation in human history. And even those that we love and we're connected to, we've outsourced to just long streams of memes from old friends, right? We're not, we're just completely disconnected from one another. Um, you got to get a coach, or a therapist, or a group of two or three people that will sit down and go through this list with you and will say, "No, no, no, no. That's not right. You have not gotten unattractive and dumb. That's not true." Or they might say, "Hey, you missed one. You're also kind of a jerk, right?" And I've got buddies who will do that for me. Um, but I, but I think getting other people to provide new perspective. And then the third choice is, is I'm going to choose freedom. And what I mean by that, not like an eagle flying across, you know, the thing, and I'm wearing like, American flag under roots. That's not what I mean when I say choose freedom. It goes back to what you were talking about with the hooks and the tethers and the chains. Who do I owe money to? What is my calendar? How is it running my life? Where am I completely swallowed up in just stuff, in clothes, and clutter, and books, in a trashed car? Um, or where am I overly reliant on perfectionism, and everything being exactly perfect, or otherwise I can't function, right? Um, these are places where we just get trapped. U, when it comes to Rel, where to have no boundaries. How many grown-ups do you know, doc, whose in-laws are still deciding what they're going to do for Thanksgiving and Christmas, for God's sake? It's your life. It's your right. So where do we not have boundaries? And so choosing reality, choosing connection, choosing to to willingly enter into relationship with other people, kindle old friendships, start new friendships, call a professional. And the third one is, I got to choose freedom. I got to look and be honest about where is somebody else deciding what I'm doing with my own life. And that, that's a great place to start.

That, that's so fantastic and, and very actionable. And I love it because that, it is actually starting to listen to the ruminations, listen to the bad feelings that you would prefer not to have. That, that is actually where this process begins of journaling or talking to a friend or a counselor around, "What am I thinking about over and over? What am I feeling?" And that is, is how we begin the process of sorting through it. And that once you have that clarity around, uh, your reality, as you say, then you can begin to run this, this past people get feedback and think about, um, what would change for you if you were to pursue freedom by releasing some of these attachments or old ways of being, once you understand that they're not serving your wellness? And getting to the bottom of a story. Just track a rumination one day. Just track it. So, um, my boss, her name is Suzanne. And let's just pretend that I'm sitting at home and I start thinking about Suzanne. And she said this, and then she did this thing, and then I'm getting so mad. You know what the story is trying to do? It's trying to, it's found one person who's got power over me. And I'm a guy. I don't like that. I don't like that one person decides what time I got to be at work, and what I need to wear. But that's what I signed up for. I chose this. Like, I walked into this willingly. And so I can either have this conversation in person, like, really get, or I could make peace with myself and deal with my problem with authority. I have an authority problem. And sometimes the rumination is about, "I'm just going to tell him if he hits me one more time." Your body's trying to tell you, "Get out. You're not safe." Yeah. Yeah. That's the fear that we listen to. Yeah. Sometimes your body's telling you, "You got an authority issue, man. If you're going to be an adult, you need to get over that." My budget is always having, I'm always having a fight with my budget. And it's always reminding me, "You're not nine. You need to learn how to hold off on pleasure all of the time and save money." Right? Those are all just a toggle between re, like, "This is a real threat," and "You need to grow up." But it's, it's just tracking that rumination all the way to the end, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Those are three steps. I think you mentioned that there are actually seven steps. What, what are the advanced levels of this work? Where does it go next?

Um, fourth one is choosing mindfulness. And I know that sounds like an old guy on a clock. No, it's so true. I mean, people wouldn't keep saying that if it wasn't right. And meditation is important, all that. I, and I do that. But most folks that I run into, they're, they would not going to spend a day of their life meditating. So when I meet, say mindfulness, what I'm saying is just creating some space between what your body's, what it feels, and what you do next. How can you practice lengthening the gap between stimulus and response? Right? Yeah. Um, the fifth one is, uh, always choose the hard path. Um, the things that we do now that are hard result in an easier time of it later. If I save more money now, my retirement is going to look a lot different, and my ability to help other people down the road is going to look different. If I exercise now, I'm going to be able to roll around on the floor when I'm 80 with my grandkids, right? Another one is the psychology of anxiety and belief. And we talked about it a little bit. Um, if we look back at every single psychological construct, from all of them, result in self-actualization. If you get all of this stuff, then the self can finally be the shining star at top of the hill. And my quiet conversations with psychiatrists across the country are very quiet and very, "Hey, the self is not hold. It can't hold at all." And we are, we have found ourselves Uber actualized in our culture, and we're imploding. And so you have to believe in something bigger than yourself. Um, I'm a Christian guy, so that frames my, the way I, I view the world. I've got friends who I love deeply, and that are atheists, that believe and understand the greater purpose of, you know, death, life, and rebirth, part of the earth, and the soil, and the air. What you have to believe in something bigger than yourself. Yeah. Um, otherwise, the self can't hold. It wasn't designed to hold up the universe. Um, and then there's one more, and it's probably the most important one. Oh, health and healing. Um, you have to create a non-anxious life to create a life worth living. You have to deal with your traumas. You got to deal with your past. You got to spend some time with a counselor. You got to spend some time with a pastor. You got to get a group of friends together. You got to deal with your physical ailments. Um, you got to deal with the fact that Dad left, Mom got sick, lost a child. You got to deal with those things, or your body's going to be trying to get your attention for the rest of your life until it knows that you're, you're, you're back in, in the driver's. Yeah. So that's the seven.

That's fantastic. And, and thank you too. And I love, you know, even the order that you presented them in, because you're really talking about that health and healing last. And that has absolutely been my experience in a lot of ways. Like, it's difficult to do really deep, meaningful work around, you know, family of origin stuff, the shame, if there are aspects of your life, just day-to-day, that are not good for you. Like, you really need to be in a, a safe, solid, foundational place in order to be able to really go into that deep, old stuff. And, and I think that sometimes, well, you know, people think that that, um, they have to get all these big, deep, dark things figured out first, and then they will be able to have a nice life. And it is actually not the way it works. A lot of times. I remember my, my graduate counseling students, my favorite part was when we would send them to the lab for the first time to start seeing quote unquote, real clients, when they were just our classmates. And they'd always launch into this, like, trying to do CBT or trying to do, you know, choice, whatever. And I would always stop and say, "What if they're just really hungry and they haven't eaten in four days? Are they going to be anxious?" And they're like, "Yeah." Like, let's start there. With, are they safe? And are they okay? What's their, how's their light? Right? So I think again, taking this conversation full circle, we just dump everything into the mental health bucket, right? And then we say, "We need more therapists to go fix them." Man, I think we got to look at the air and the water that we're breathing and drinking. And that's where we're going to find a lot of the solutions to what people are struggling with.

Yeah, well, and what a hopeful message too, because, you know, that that is accessible to all of us. And, and that, I think everybody, you know, listening to this can be hearing your words and kind of going through those steps that you outline in your book, and experience benefit from that introspection and just from finding even small ways to create freedom in their life, that begins just releasing some of those attachments and, and developing a different kind of relationship with their anxiety. It's more being informed by it as opposed to experiencing it as the enemy that must be eradicated.

Yes. I love it. I love it. This has been such an interesting conversation, as I knew it would be. As I knew it would be. Thank you so much for having me again. I, I, I appreciate it. Usually, I'm a one-and-done. Friends will have me over and they're like, "That's enough of that guy." Thank you for having me back. I really appreciate it.

Well, it's always a pleasure. And so tell our listeners, if they would like to learn more about your work and your, your books and your podcast, where would they go?

Um, you can follow me on Instagram. I seem to get myself in trouble there. John Deloney. And after only after you listen to this podcast, you can find me at The Dr. John Deloney Show, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Wonderful. And your book again is called Building a Non-Anxious Life. Yes, ma'am. Thank you so, so much for for having me over.