Transcription
There's so much interest in the um, there's so much talk about the 1914 and the GL generation and the O, the November 1st and the October 15th black last year. Interesting point that we still hear them say, "Oh, it's soon, right? It's soon." Um, and when a witness hears "soon," he translates that, "Okay, the last generation." Wait a minute, we don't have that last generation. So what do "soon" mean?
And maybe everybody else thought, and I, I just noticed it recently, but in that November 1 Watchtower, it defines what "soon" is in one of the paragraphs. It says, "Soon, that the devil would be thrown down and his destruction would be soon in comparison to the thousands of years that he has ruled the Earth." Okay, "soon" now means something shorter than thousands of years. That's what it says.
And interesting thing, and another uh, the uh, sheep and goat uh, because uh, they used to say that the, the dividing of the sheep and the judgment of the sheep and the goats was during that, it's the par, the last days, all that business. That this was tied to the the teaching of whether the anointed would live through Armageddon. And they vacated. Sometimes they said yes, they will, and sometimes they said they won't. Because the only thing the society was committed to say was that, well, the since the sheep are judged based on their contact with the anointed, the anointed only need to live as long as the sheep do.
Well, now that they've moved it to Armageddon, there was a comment in that October 15th Watchtower that says that these sheep will have to have contact with the anointed during the tribulation. So what does that mean? How long? It says there's only a few anointed. So now they've had to push out how long those anointed live. So they boxed themselves into another corner because they've got two other numbers that are a problem. The number 144,000, right? Because if you don't open up that door and you've only got a limit to it, 44,000, that those days get longer and longer until you get to Armageddon, right? Whatever that is. Ouch.
The other date, of course, is 1935. Moving out 1914 didn't help them many, because as Dwayne mentioned, someone to be baptized by 1935 would also have to be now baptized, be born by 1920, because they don't baptize babies, right? So the one baptized in 1935 doesn't count. So they are still in a box. Even though they made a change, they put themselves in a very nasty box that we can look for some more numbers to change. I don't know if they're going to change the 144,000 or change the 1935 or both. Even if they dump the 1935, the 144,000 is still solid. And what do you do when you start running out?
And they have built up a culture over the last, what, 60 years, that in their artwork, it's always focusing the thoughts on a paradise. And so few numbers would partake. And there's always, don't think about heaven, you're not of the anointed, da da da. So they have built like a culture that is counter to thinking of, "Let's anoint more folks." So when you run out, as Dwayne said, that's the end. So they still got problems.
And now, okay, that's not my testimony. Um, it has to do with my journey uh, in the Watchtower. And I want to talk about very much how I got in, why I stayed in, what didn't get me out, and what did get me out. And then what I'm doing now. My folks came in the Watchtower in the mid-50s. And uh, I was baptized in uh, '68. And we all remember that infamous day, any of us. Um, although the good thing is that I, I, I'd rather have been baptized under the old questions rather than the new questions. Baptized in the organization, I want to throw up on that one. But at least when I was baptized, it was, "Do you believe that you're a sinner and repent? And then, and that you will respond uh, as God reveals the truth to you through through Jesus Christ, the enlightening power of the Holy Spirit?" And I said yes to that. Okay.
Yes, I realized it was a different Jesus, some depending on how much you got into the Watchtower, when you, if you were in or wherever your situation is. Um, there was something I only remember seeing in the Look booklet about the resurrection, where they got specific about the resurrection, that it's not, it's really a recreation. Uh, paragraphs 41, 42. I don't know if remember all remember that. Things that I kind of remember, which means that when they baptize, they baptized in the name of the Father, and not just Michael the Archangel, but they believe Jesus is really the recreated Archangel. And that's an important point. The Watchtower did try to take away the resurrection from us by teaching a recreation, not a resurrection. Anyway, I remember things uh, having grown up in the Watchtower from those years. Um, for example, before the public talk, there was no prayer. That was a new thing. The quota board. Anybody remember the quota board? The quota board? Yeah. And I, as a child, I sit there and just stare at that quota board, all the, the numbers. And that's so many grew up in the Watchtower, now completely different culture, totally unaware of that. The big quota board. Jesus had no beard. Russell, he had a beard. Rufer took it off. And then, so in the years I grew up, Jesus didn't have a beard. And it was so funny when you think of the Judas, they had to get Judas to identify who the Messiah was, because in all these thousands of Jews, how are you going to find a Jew who doesn't have a beard? You know? But it's so, it's kind of silly. But yes, he didn't have a beard. Of course, chess was forbidden. And I was a chess player. And that, that was a lot of problems.
I grew through uh, lived through the 1975 thing. And what many uh, who didn't go through that don't realize is that independent of what was printed, there was what was spoken that caused a lot of hype. And I remember a circuit, circuit assembly where the circuit overseer was talking to the congregation and he said, "Brothers, that we are so close to the end. He says, you know how an alarm clock has the buzzer? Well, just before the buzzer, there is a click." If you have a mechanical alarm clock. And this was 1973. He says, "Brothers, we have just heard the click." And that was 1973. And I had, I had gotten into college. And of course, those were the years you didn't go to college. And I was punished, kind of, for that. And uh, gone, gotten into college, spent two years and dropped out. And this was that time frame. Uh, 'cause I dropped out 'cause I truly believed uh, that this was God's organization and the end was coming. And uh, uh, so I, I dropped out. Went back, though. I went back in 1975. Went back to college. Uh, I went through the, the no-flared pants and the no-colored shirt. Um, and of course, I was there when they studied the Watchtower when the Watchtower made it clear that uh, Jesus was not the mediator for uh, the uh, great crowd. Actually, the Watchtower never changed that view. I never saw that they actually changed. They had always said that Jesus was just the um, um, mediator for the anointed. It's just that that was the Watchtower where they had to come out and clarify it. And that was, that was an interesting experience. I did not buy that nonsense. Um, I, I understood what they're saying, but I, I couldn't uh, buy into that. Even though I wasn't partaking or anything like that.
I want to talk about how I got in, why I got in, because there are a lot of ministries here. And of course, the tapes will be shared. And I want folks to understand, excuse me, how I got in. Now, not everyone gets into the Watchtower for the same reasons. I understand my testimony is going to have some differences in it. But I'd like some folks to understand about my testimony and those that were like me. Um, because different people get in for different reasons, and people get out for different reasons. I got in because as a uh, when my parents were in it, sort of. My father was in it for a few months and went back to atheism and heathenism. Um, my mother got in it because she said she wanted, if she got baptized, she knew the Witnesses would stop hassling her. So she got baptized. And um, uh, I didn't know that there was a school and service meeting until we had been going to meetings for about 12 years. Because we only went to the Sunday meeting. And I went roller skating. And the night when everybody wants to school and service meeting, I went roller skating. And I didn't even know that they had these other meetings. So I wasn't a strict Witness in the early years. But later on, I became. And I used to cry when my mother, a baptized Witness, would force me to celebrate Christmas. I'd say, "Please don't make me do this." And, uh, here I wasn't even baptized at the time. And I was, "No, no, no." Um, and I was uh, firmly against um, Christmas at the time.
But from going uh, as a young person, going with others, going door to door, and I saw like debate situations between Witnesses. And I happened to end up with Witnesses that took their ministry very seriously. And they go door to door. And I never saw a case where the Christian would out-debate the Witness. And I said, "Well, if they don't have the truth, they're doing really good." And I said, "I want to be in the group that can do the, the debate scene and do it well." And that was very important to me. And so I got into it because Witnesses had all the answers. I was the kind of person then, and I am the kind of person now, I need, need answers. I know that's not true for a lot of people. It's not true for everybody. But it was true for me. I needed answers. Now, if the Bible doesn't talk about it, I could live with that. But if the Bible talked about it, I needed an answer that that worked.
So because of that, I started reading a lot of uh, uh, religious literature, anti-Watchtower literature, because I wanted to be prepared um, for the argumentation. And I think I'd read and viewed everything that I, I could think of that was on the market. And at that time, looking back, I can't think of anything I, I didn't look at. So I knew about uh, 4440 Braburn. Who knows what 4440 Braburn is? Best for him. I'd been there. Uh, I knew the address. I knew all about it. I knew about 1925 and the um, uh, the ancient worthies. I knew that the Watchtower um, uh, teaching on the ancient worthies, that was up until 1950. They expected those ancient worthies to come back. That didn't stop in '25, that continued up in 1950. I knew about 1914, 1915, 1918, um, 1925. Of course, I lived through 1975. Um, I knew, known about all their uh, failing prophecies. I knew that, like when the Berlin Wall fell, I knew that that blew away the the King of the North and who he was, uh, because they didn't have a clue who he was. Um, I know about 1874. Uh, I knew that Witnesses didn't believe in 1914 as the presence of Christ until long after 1914. Knew about all the problems of the New World Translation. Read as much as I could on the Trinity. I wanted to have a good response there. I knew um, about Gomer and the Gomer translation. Back, I had a friend that um, uh, he was a ministerial servant at the time, and he had a study. And he wrote to the society and about Gomer. And the society wouldn't answer him. They just wrote back to the elders and told them to go ask this ministerial servant and whether he was loyal or not. And then the elders went out to this guy that was studying with that servant and thumped on him. "Who are you to ask this question?" No answer, just something, something, something. Of course, that guy stopped studying. Wouldn't you?
Um, I knew about uh, I knew about Russell, the pyramids. Um, I'd seen a presentation of the uh, the pyramids. I'd actually seen the cloth and, you know, the banner. Uh, I did know, I did know about the existence of the book Angels and Women, but I didn't know what it was, nor when it was published. And had an elder send me a copy of Angels and Women so I can still refer to that. That was kind of funny. Um, I'd read Crisis of Conscience. And it surprised me, um, to be honest, that Ray Franz didn't realize the corruption that was in the organization, 'cause I had heard it and I knew it. And so I was kind of surprised that he didn't know about it. While others would read Crisis of Conscience, see the corruption, and get out, I was just surprised. I said, "How could you be in this organization that long and not know?" Um, I also knew something that not too many people knew, you know, about the Watchtower Farm incident, right? And why the governing body had to write that article on the evils and dangers of bestiality. Didn't know about that? Yeah, I did. Um, very nasty things. Those young brothers that are unmarried out at Watch Farm. And then they would tell me that college was a dangerous place to be. Oh dear. I can think of, you know, the suicides. I knew about the suicides. You know, "p below it, it's not this fall, it's the sudden stop. It does it. Yes." I knew about that kind of stuff.
And yet, why did I stay in? A good question, right? Why, why did he stay in if he knew all this? And I'd seen the videos. And the reason was is that I convinced myself. We're going to talk about in a minute, my spirit had left the Watchtower. And we'll talk about the conditions why that happened. But my mind was still in. Because I'd reasoned on uh, 1st Samuel chapter 2 and Exodus 32. That's Eli, who was a not a very good high priest, and Aaron, who made the golden calf. If I had been in that situation, would I have left the temple where Eli was serving? No. Even corruption at the top was not a reason for me to leave God's organization. And I believed it was God's organization. So mentally, I was in the Watchtower. I believed their doctrine. I did not believe in their behavior. I truly believed that there was corruption at the top, but I did not believe that was a reason to leave God's organization.
So when I would go door to door, well, I continued to do uh, research. I did go to college, as I said, got a uh, Masters in Math. Went to a junior college, learned some Hebrew, 'cause I wanted to be up on this kind of stuff to debate and to prove what I believe to be true. Along that, I was reading it when the district assembly came across Hebrews 1:6 about angels worshiping Jesus. And I said, "Whoa, I don't remember hearing that from the platform." So I went back and researched. And someone had sent me a copy of the charter that Jesus was worshiped. Watchtower charter. And then I saw in the Watchtower articles that they had vacillated back and forth that Jesus could be worshiped. And I said, "Hey, all right. I worship Jesus. I could see it in scripture. That could not be argued that any other way. Hebrews 1:6 and other verses. Jesus is worshiped." Um, okay. So I just assumed it. I saw in the Watchtower. I didn't think of this as, "Oh, I'm going to be insidious and undermine the confidence of of the brothers." I thought of, "Ah, here's something in the Watchtower. It's in the Bible. It's in the uh, big print New World Translation footnote, by the way." And then when the Reasoning Book came out, the Reasoning Book, I believe it's page 210, says that Jesus is worshiped. And say, "What? Just because Jesus is worshiped, does that mean he's God?" And the answer is no. But the point is, is that it claimed he was worshiped. So, okay, Jesus is worshiped. I believe it and I accept it.
So as I continued in research, I started defending the Watchtower. Not only in the door-to-door ministry, but also in um, a newsletter. I put out a newsletter. And the folks that subscribe, it has a subscription list like they were circuit overseers, elders, pioneers, Bethelites. And I would give my latest routines on how to defend the Watchtower Society. And my two specialties were the Trinity and the false prophet. The accusation, in the consequence of this, sharing this newsletter, I started corresponding with an elder on the East Coast. I lived in California, and he lived in Raleigh, North Carolina. Name of Chester. And we're going to get to him later on in the story. Kind of funny. He had one of the largest collections of Watchtower material that I knew of. He had, everything. I believe he even, and not just the reprints of the Watchtower, but the actual magazines themselves. And we would share. And I convinced him that Jesus was to be worshiped. In my area of the country, I wasn't too popular because, um, I sometimes would intimidate folks because I'd get in discussion, all of a sudden I'm starting quoting Greek and Hebrew and, you know, and quoting Reading the Kingdom Interlinear and explaining the Greek words. And it kind of bothered some of the brothers. But Chester would love this kind of stuff. So he started going door to door. And I convinced him and showed him John 20:28. So his routine, he would, he'd introduce himself. And when he'd go to the door, it says, "Hi, my name is and da. And I worship Jesus as my God. And I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses coming to talk to you about Jesus." Okay.
One day, he, Raleigh is right next to, uh, the Southeastern Baptist Seminary. And so the seminary students would come down to that congregation and want to visit. And they would want to meet with the elders. And they're going to ask some good questions. And Chester said, "Well, let's clear up some things first between you and us. Why, you understand what we believe about Jesus." And Chester would say, "How many of the elders in the room believe that Jesus should be worshiped as our God?" And Chester would raise his hand because I convinced him of this. And the other elders are going, "Because we want to be unified, right?" But, and Chester put in more hours than any of them all together, put together. 'Cause he was really motivated for going door to door. So it was really tough to remove someone like that because he put in more hours than in any. And the Watchtower looks at hours first. So whenever the circuit overseer would come, that would be a tough one. Because so he was, you know, the committee, like the service overseer. And so he's raising his hand, and some other elders were kind of raising their hands, and others are a little bit confused. And ultimately, that was the reason about three years later, while he was removed because he embarrassed the elders. Well, anyway, Chester wrote to me and he said, "This is a great place to live. He says, I have the freedom to to use this material in the ministry. And I go to out to the seminary. And I go out the seminary housing. And I tell them that I worship Jesus as my God. And this is great living him." So, as it were, I believe the Lord didn't move me from San Jose, California, to Raleigh, North Carolina. And I would go out with Chester. And we'd go out door to door in the seminary student housing. And we had a blast.
Me, back up. Um, in this transition, while I was in California and Raleigh, while I was in California, even though some of the brothers didn't care for me too much, I developed a reputation. And I came to be sort of known as "The Hired Gun." When they had a, when some of the friends would come in contact with a pastor, someone, a seminary graduate, and they said, "This guy is," or someone who was in a ministry to Jehovah's Witnesses, they said, "Well, this guy is giving the friends a tough time." I would get called in. And I did this many times. And the intent was to engage in Bible ping-pong and then get the person so frustrated that they would drop out of the ministry of talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. And I was successful in every case but one. If I knew where they lived, I could, I would go to their house. And I'd say, "Hi, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I understand you like to talk to Jehovah's Witnesses about the Bible. And I do too." And they'd invite me. And say, "Well, we have a ministry to Jehovah's Witnesses." "Super. Well, I love to talk to people." And they says, "Do you know about Best?" "I says, I've been there. 4440 Braburn." And they said, "Oh, you know about these things?" "Yes, yes I do." And I knew everything that they had ever showed me. I said, "Yes. It's on the cuest, kind of on the curve in the road there. And some plum people live there." About Abraham and Isaac. But anyway. So I knew more than they did. And they'd get very impressed. And we'd get into Bible ping-pong. And I'd start pulling out Hebrew and Greek. And they said, "All right, we'd like to show you in some New World Translation." And I had developed, and with my friends, we came up with routines on how to get away from all this because we didn't want to look at photocopies. And we didn't want to have to defend particular things. The New World Translation, me, they were kind of funny. So what they do is they says, "Well, let's look at the New World Translation." I said, "Excuse me, do you need the New World Translation to prove what you believe?" The Christian goes, "Well, no." And I says, "I don't either. Why do we should we use it? Let's not." And he set the New World Translation by. And he says, "Well, do you have another Bible?" I says, "I have 40 different translations at home. Which one would you like me to use?" And I, he says, "Well, let's look at the Watchtower." I said, "Do you need the Watchtower to prove what you believe?" And he goes, "No." And I says, "Neither do I. So I didn't bring any Watchtowers with me. Let's not use them. Let's just use any Bible you like." And I never lost a debate. These were the seminary graduates, whatever. Never lost a debate. Why didn't I? I should have lost them all. I didn't lose any of them.
Okay, so now I'm in a ministry to make sure that anybody that Witnesses start losing those debates, if they choose to get into them. But I have another approach in my ministry other than other than Bible ping-pong. So I would audiotape some of these debate situations. And then after I was done, and they were thoroughly frustrated with me because they would want to go one topic, and I'd get off of the photocopies, get off the New World Translation, get them over to a subjects that I wanted to deal on. And it was always the Trinity. And I would come around. And it was this routine that now, see, I had already spiritually, I had left the Watchtower. I'll tell you why. I'm going to back up on my research. One day I was watching John Ankerberg videotape. Head collections of John Ankerberg's material. And in it, toward the end, as he's doing a presentation, and John was different from every Christian I'd met at the door. John was kind, gracious, well-informed, and slick. I saw no mistakes in his presentation. And he hammered on the Hebrews 1:6. And I says, "He's right. Jesus is to be worshiped. He's got that right." And at the end of this presentation, he says, "I want you to, if you're a Witness, I'd like you to cry something." I don't remember his exact words. "I just want you to cry something. Would you now? Would you pray to Jesus and ask him into your life to be your personal savior?" And I thought for a minute, "Are there any routine scriptures that say it's wrong to pray to Jesus?" Now, I knew what the society's stand was. I knew they hammered on John 14:14. But I knew in the Kingdom Interlinear that the Greek actually says to pray to Jesus. And I knew at the king, oh, I didn't know at the Kingdom Interlinear that, at the footnote of Acts 7:59, it says Jesus prayed. Stephen prayed to Jesus. I didn't know that footnote. But they actually say that Jesus is prayed, pray to Jesus. But I could not think of a scripture that said it would be a damning offense to pray to Jesus. And I said, "Can't be wrong. Can't be wrong." And so I did that. At that time, my spirit left the Watchtower. I saw it that they used guilt as a motivator. Very nasty. But behavior wasn't a reason for me to leave because my mind was still in. Because I could see it as Eli, the high priest, corrupt, yes. But was it God's organization? As it, it must be, because the Watchtower had an explanation for 1 Corinthians 15:28 about Jesus being subordinate and subjection to the Father for eternity, and Ephesians 1:17 and Revelation 3:12 where Jesus says calls God his God. And I would walk in with the to the pastor or whoever I was debating. And I said, "You know, I could understand your position if you could just answer my one question. Does God have a God? I know Abraham was a god. Thomas had a god. Thomas said, 'You are my God' to Jesus. So Jesus was a god of Thomas. My question is, does, does God have a God? Does Almighty God have a God?" And I never had a Trinitarian say yes. They always said no. I said, "Well, does Jesus have a God?" And they go, "No." Ephesians 1:17, Revelation 3:12, John 20:17. I need an answer to them all. And they look at that and they go, "Whoa." And I said, "Well, if you can't tell me about Jesus and how he is God, then whatever you got, I'm not interested in my organization. Yeah, corruption at the top. I know it. I know about the, the, the predictions that have failed. But what I need is, who knows the truth about God? That's what cuts the line. If you know who God is, grace, tell me, and I'm with you. If you don't know, I'm not any worse off." Okay. And that's what I did.
The other thing that kept me from leaving the Watchtower is that I, in all my 23 years, I only met one Christian who was kind and gracious to me. One, one, one couple that was truly kind and gracious that said, "We're Christians, and we'd like to share the gospel with you, and we'd like to, you know, challenge you." And the Watchtower started, but they did it in a kind and gracious manner. And Colossians 4:5 and 6 says persons involved in this ministry need to do it with graciousness. And I would go to the door and I'd get a Christian debating with me using sarcasm, false accusations, and ridicule, trying to embarrass me. And I said, and I swear, I would walk away and I said, I say a prayer. I'd say, "Was absolute truth. I said, God, I didn't say Lord at the time. I said, Jehovah God, I may be wrong. I may have really got this messed up where the truth is. Send someone to me to help me out. But not that person, 'cause that person's faith hasn't done him any good. I do not want what he's offering." Okay. That's why I stayed in.
Okay, Watchtower understand where I was going, how much I knew, but why wasn't I getting out? It's because the presentation of the faith. I wanted to see it in their behavior, and I did not. Now, I knew there are a lot of Witnesses were just as nasty. But if they're going to someone else is going to say, "My, our way is better," you're going to have to show me. And not just in, "Well, Jehovah lived in the plead, he as wish." I knew that stuff. And just trying to embarrass. And all the nutty stuff that that Russell did. Okay.
Um, yes. Then at a later time, besides having said prayer to, to Jesus to be my Lord and my Savior, I'd been doing some research on the Holy Spirit. And that clock wasn't back. Boy, I thought, "Wow, did I just went over the edge." Check my watch. Yes, thank you very much. On the, uh, Holy Spirit. And did some research. And I found out the Holy Spirit of the Bible is not the Holy Spirit that the Watchtower had. Watchtower says, "Holy Spirit, you have to cultivate it." And the illustration that we all heard at the assembly was, "If you want to cultivate self-control, you put these peanuts in your pocket and you don't eat them. And this is how you control yourself. And this is how you get the Holy Spirit." And I read Galatians 5:6. It was, "You have the Holy Spirit or you do not. And you walk in the Holy Spirit or you do not. And if you have the Holy Spirit and you walk in it, you will have fruit. And that fruit comes from having the Holy Spirit. And that proves that you have the Holy Spirit. You don't get it by putting peanuts in your pocket and try to cultivate it." And then something happened. And I'm not saying everyone has to have it, or that it's necessary to have it. But something came over me like, like a light. And I felt the love of God, holiness, and power like I'd never experienced in my life. And I know the moment it happened. And I know where I was when I had it. And I'm just saying that's my personal experience. Whether you say, "Well, I've never," you know, that's fine. I'm just saying that's what happened to me. And at that time, my spirit left the Watchtower. I actually wrote a letter disassociating myself, but would not hand it in until I had an answer to my questions, as I mentioned before, or found those who were loving and could accept me without having to deal with me in ridicule and sarcasm. Okay. But I had a letter ready to go. But I didn't want to lose my family. I was married, kids. I didn't want to lose that. But if I'm going to jump ship, I needed an answer. And I needed to find a group that would love me and not deal with me in ridicule. Okay.
I did stop going to the service meeting 'cause I just determined that that was the most evil meeting because they use guilt as the primary motivator. And it was unhealthy. I had to resign from handling the second school. I had a second school for a while, and book study for years. And this school, I had a public talk. And I said, "I had to do this with style." So I had a letter resigning. And they assigned me to public talk 'cause they liked the way I would give public talks. And as I stepped off the platform, and the guy comes up, I handed him my letter of resignation. Is that cool? Yeah.
Um, as time went on, I told you about Chester. And how I was corresponding with him. He was corresponding with a fellow by the name of John Warren. John, where are you, John? And John was posting some tough questions on the false prophets. And Chester and I swapped notes at the time. Because of that and other dealings with the false prophets, decided to do something. I felt compelled to defend the society. And first wrote this book, Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not False Prophets. Found a Witness that was willing to distribute them in the US. And this is the 70-page version of it. And it's gone all over. In fact, just the, I mean, this was written in 1989. Of course, I had it probably shipped privately because you publish it publicly, Watchtower shoots you. And I knew that. And a couple months ago, on the internet, there are some Christians doing the false prophet routine on a Witness who wants who's trying to remain anonymous. And he responded. He starts these paragraphs, no quote marks on the paragraph, but all this reasoning. And I'm reading the response and I said, "Boy, that sounds familiar." And I found the page in the book. And I said, "Uh, uh, I wrote back, Pastor, or say, interesting. These are not his own words. He's quoting from my book, Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not False Prophets. And by the way, the author believes they are false prophets and is now just fellowship." That was fun.
A little bit later, made it longer. After I published that one and went, went to the trouble of binding it in a little bit better way. And Troubled Witnesses Are Not False Prophets. And now the book is a little bit bigger. And printed on a, you know, laser printer and and all that. And I was in the middle of indexing that when I was disfellowshipped. Well, we'll get into that. Had some friends, made some friends, encountered some friends along the way. Dropped some names. Remember Nick Kip, who wrote The Wake article, "How Knowing Greek Led Me to the Truth." Interesting. He was leaving the Watchtower the same time I was. He's been out for four years. The other names is Nelson Hurley. I didn't bring his book, but he's his big book. And went to visit Nelson State at his house because we are both doing anti-Trinitarian materials. And, uh, then there's FOC Car, who wrote his book, you've seen his book on the Divine Name and Blacks, Black Watchtower History, Black Perspective. H. Lemmings, Rudy Carmon, and those that are active. And they were being used by the society, even though they were not living at Bethel, they were being used by the society to write and contribute materials. I knew Hal had, Hal Flemings had. And of course, Nelson Hurley had contributed. So, they, we were friends. And I'd visit a Mountain, California. And we swapped stories and such. And they said, "You know, Jay, you really ought to take your book and submit it to the society." I was, 'cause I knew the society didn't like people writing things. I knew the society had a copy of every, all my newsletters. But I didn't, they'd never, well, they were a little upset, not about the content, because they had no complaint, 'cause I was defending the society. But they had a problem was that I was now becoming a channel, and I had a subscription list. And these were circuit overseers and elders that were subscribing to my materials. Society was not pleased with that. So they said, "Why don't you send your book anyway?" So I sent it to the writing department. And I got contacted from a guy named Sah. And Sah said that the lead writers on the society were impressed by the book and wanted to know if I would start writing for the Watchtower magazine. And I said, "Sure." And again, my mind was in the Watchtower, but my spirit was having problems with him. So I did submit some articles. One of them was on why Jesus should be worshiped. I still, as memorabilia, have the letters from the Watchtower, thanking me for the articles that I've submitted. I even have now to get through to the writing department. You just can't send something to the writing department because everything goes through their mail department. And if they check the ZIP code out, and that decides where it goes. But the society has these little labels. And if you take these labels and put them on your letter, it goes to the writing department. So these are the labels they sent me so that my letters wouldn't have to go through the screening department but would go right to the writing department. So that's a little memorabilia that I kept for the articles that I was.
Um, this, yes. Because of all the things that I knew about the organization and the corruption at the top, I knew that so many were leaving the Watchtower over these issues. And I thought, "Well, I can stay in. Mentally, I could stay in." Even though I was having other problems with the organization. So I felt compelled to write my next book, How to Maintain Joy in God's Organization. It's a 132-page book on how to cope with the corruption in the Watchtower and still stay in it, believing it's God's organization. And you'll say, "Why didn't I bind it?" This one is bound because in the process of binding it, it was when I was disfellowshipped. Okay, we'll talk about why. We all guess that. But anyway, I wondered why, why did I do this? This captures the mentality that I had at that time for someone who was able to make every possible excuse about the Watchtower and believe it loyally. Because if I hadn't written it down, now thinking back, what's, how do I know what a loyal Witness thinks like? This is how a loyal Witness thinks because I knew it all and yet was able to stay in. Okay. I keep this just for that purpose. I said, "All right, now what was my thinking at that time?" Ah, go back. Now I know. Okay. So that was the, the second book. I had only distributed one copy as a, for someone to read through. And then I decided, "Now, this isn't going to work." Because of course, now that I'm disfellowshipped, this doesn't apply anymore.
The circumstances under the disfellowshipping. In that, remember my friend Chester, who believed that Jesus was to be worshiped. I mean, he would use that. And I moved to Raleigh. And we're going door to door telling people this. And he was, I was withdrawing from the organization because I don't want to be part of the, the, the organization, the physical organization. I wanted, I believed in the theology, but not the physical organization itself. So I didn't meet with a lot of the folks or go door to door with a lot of people. They said, "Well, why don't you become a ministerial servant?" "I don't think so." And Chester was still an elder. And he would work with lots of people. And that was his, remember what was his invitation to the door? "Hi, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. We worship Jesus as our God." Okay. So the word got around that he was doing this. And he was affecting lots of Witnesses because he was going door to door saying this. Well, I got word through the grapevine. I got a call from my other friends who were writing for the Watchtower as well. And the word was, "Do not speak to Jay, because if you do, you will no longer be used as a writer, because something's going to happen in Raleigh." And shortly after that, a new circuit overseer showed up. Walked in. And immediately deleted Chester as an elder. And then they met with me. And he said, "We do not tell people that we worship Jesus." And his reasoning was, he says, "I know you question the things that the society publishes. And he says, I want you to take a look at a verse here. It says Acts 17:11 about the Bereans and how they're more noble-minded. And they, you know, they says, but they examine the scriptures to see whether these things were true." He says, "He says, I know you're thinking of doing that. But remember, these folks that were examining the scriptures were not baptized. And it's okay to examine the scriptures while you're not baptized. But once you become baptized, you stop that." And I went, "Whoa. What group have I gotten in?" Because my whole thing was scriptures. And I go, "Whoa. This is coming from a circuit overseer." Oh, so Chester was deleted as an elder. And I had an opportunity to go to Bethel. And I met with someone from the service desk to find out what is going on. And they said, "Well, it's strictly Chester's problem. It's not with you." And at that time, I was not writing yet for the society. And they said, "Jay, we have a copy of everything you've ever written. People send it in. Really." And they send it in. We have a file. And he says, "Wait a minute. I'm going to go check your file." He went in. I mean, top guy. He could go and just check my file. And he came back and he says, "We do not think that your content is a problem. But it sure makes us nervous when you write." "Get used to it." So a little bit later, that's when I did start submitting articles. And words still continued to go around. I'd said that worship Jesus.
And then March 1990 came. Whoa. Two things happened in March. March 19th, week of March 19th was the Theocratic School Number Four. Talk Number Four is why Jesus is not one to be worshiped. Whoa. So, as it was, you know, I wonder, "Oh dear, what's going to happen now?" So I mean, he, this announcement essentially in every congregation, I assume, in the world, is certainly in the English world because that's the theme. Talk Number Four. And we were wondering, "Oh dear, what's going to happen?" Chester and I, and whoever else may believe that Jesus was to be worshiped. And we've been saying that. And then, of course, they assign speakers. School Number One, Two, and Three. And then the speaker in the front hall got sick. And he said, "Well, who could I assign to give this talk to?" And he says, "I'm going to give it to my good friend Chester." So Chester got up and for five minutes told him why Jesus should be worshiped without interruption. And he sat down. We're going, "Yes!" And I, I was thinking, "Oh man, is this going to do it? Is this going to do it?" And the elder that was over the school got up. And he went ballistic. And for a minute said, "Jesus is not to be worshiped. Jesus is not to be worshiped." And I'm saying, "Well, you're comfortable saying that before the judge on judgment day? Go for it." So that was March.
The other thing, what this lovely little Watchtower. This is Watchtower on the Governing Body and How to Identify the Slave. March 15th, 1990 Watchtower. And this, this is the faithful slave list of how you identify the faithful slave. It says, "You can identify by what it was doing in 1919." Now, I knew that in 1919 they were buying war bonds to finance World War I. I knew that. And I knew that they were into pyramids. I didn't know that they were in the process of republishing Angels and Women, which was a demonic book, and marketing that. But I didn't know about the pyramids. I knew about 1874. That they had no idea about the presence of Christ and when that started. And this article lists as the requirements for the faithful slave that they would be neutral in 1919, free from spiritism in 1919, and understand the presence of Christ in 1919. And I read that and I said, "Well, even they don't claim to be the faithful slave because they don't meet their own list." And if they, I don't like to be lied to. Anybody here like to be lied to? And I said, "I don't like to be lied to." But that's what this is. They lied to me because I had never seen this point before that they claimed that on the basis of these points they were the faithful slave in 1919. Now, I knew, okay, in 1990 they were neutral, da da da da da. And I could handle that. Okay, today they're neutral. And today they meet the requirements. But don't tell me on the basis of those things they were the faithful slave in 1919 because that ain't true.
Two things happened in March. So I folded up my tent. I says, "I just want to be left alone." I submitted my final articles. One of them being "Worshiping Jesus." We'll see what happens. 1991, the Governing Body formed a special committee. These were elders that didn't even live in my area. I didn't even know who, I never even heard of these guys. And appointed a committee, a judicial committee. They first investigated Chester. His committee meeting lasted 8 hours, beginning at
4:00 p.m. went to 2:00 a.m. without a break for dinner. They found him guilty of worshiping Jesus, but they did not disfellowship. They decided, uh, public reproof. Uh, I was tried shortly thereafter. I would not sit through 8 hours. I'm not going to do that. Um, I was, up to that moment though, I had believed that they were God's organization, but when this started, n, but my spirit had left long before. And now my mind had found the key. The key to getting out. I got several copies of this in my favorite Watchtower. This is the key to a loyal witness getting out. Um, the trial lasted, uh, 2 hours. I taped it. Um, and, um, when they met with me the last time, uh, I, the elders, some elders. I'd been marked as disorderly because I was not reporting my family study, if that's an excuse, you know. And so I, I didn't understand this. And so they, they, um, these elders said, "Oh, you know, we, we really love Jay, blah, blah, blah." So, um, I said, "Well, I got a tape recorder that says you're a liar." And I said, "Are you taping this?" I said, "Tape it. Run out." And I said, "Not anymore." And they said, "This meeting is over. Everybody leave the room." And then they came back in 5 minutes, say, "You're toel." Okay.
So I appealed because I didn't think it was wrong to worship Jesus. And of course, I wasn't repentant. But so I said, I needed a testimony where the Watchtower itself was the aggressor and I was the innocent victim. I needed that for my family and everyone I knew. And so they came, uh, so I peeled. Uh, they came up with another three characters that I'd never heard of, appointed directly by the, uh, governing body. Met with them. Um, well, we tried to tell brother that he was wicked for worshiping Jesus, and he just didn't understand. And, um, so again, I was just fellowshipped, uh, twice. And, um, this fellowship, uh, because they came back six weeks later. I said, "What is the deal?" They couldn't figure this one out. But it came, the other group took him 5 minutes to figure out. The other one took 6 weeks. And then, so in '92, I was disfellowshipped. That was the, uh, last night my family would eat together with me. Um, uh, soon after that, well, okay, that's that event. Um, run through quickly where it went. I was disoriented because theologically, I still believed in all that that nutty stuff. I just didn't believe in the Watchtower organization, but theologically, I was still inside because I had not heard an answer to my questions on who God was. I had to know. I called a seminary professor, and he explained it to me. Interesting. When I was submitting articles to the Watchtower, when I had gotten these letters back of thank you, the Watchtower, if someone had walked in and said, "Jay, you're not going to believe this. 3 years from today, you're going to be teaching the Orthodox Trinity and the largest Baptist Church in town." I said, "No way. I'm writing for the Watchtower. There's no way I'm going to end up teaching the Trinity." Who would have thought? Who would have thought?
Um, uh, my wife, um, is a regular pioneer. Um, we live at home. Um, my youngest son came to me one day and he said, um, "Because the Watchtower says that you are wicked for worshiping Jesus, I will no longer be doing anything with you." My daughter moved out. She's a regular pioneer in Germany. Um, my oldest son goes with me to church. Um, and on on his door, he has a little sticker at eye level for Mama to walk by. It says, "Jehovah's Witnesses, do you know about the gber and da?" He's got the. I had, I had posters all over too. Um, we do get along. As I go out to church, she knows that I deprogram Witnesses, and she'll straighten my tie and wish me well. And then she goes out door too in her pioneering work. Uh, we have found a way of maintaining peace, home in home. Uh, she has learned not to ask me questions. It doesn't do very well.
Want to talk a little bit about where I am now in in the ministry. Um, I, I do have a ministry, but my ministry is keyed on working with loyal Witnesses who will not look at photocopies, who will not, and I will not Bible ping pong. Have, have a card. It's out on the back. My other material has been snatched up. They're not there now, but, uh, I have a toll-free number. Um, and on the back are my favorite targets. And my favorite target of all is angels and women. Thank you, Dwayne. If you don't know about the book Angels and Women, you need to know about it. I, I give you a brief routine. I've used it on my 13-year-old son, and it works. Little son, cuz I'm, I'm very loving in the home, very kind. And my, my 13-year-old son says, "Dad, you know, if you just come back to Watchtower, our family could be. You're such a nice, loving father, and you look after us. If we could just come back together, together, it'd be super." And I said, "You know, Glenn, the Watchtower wouldn't even let me come back." He says, "Why not?" I says, "Because I've become firmly again, uh, opposed, convinced that all forms of spiritism are wrong." And he goes, "Well, what do you mean?" And I say, "Well, I'm opposed to the book Angels and Women and the people that marketed it." He says, "Well, what's the book Angels and Women?" I said, "Well, that's a book, uh, written by a spirit medium and, um, chronicling the events of demonic activities on Earth. And it was marketed by a pastor and, or encouraged to be republished by a pastor and, and his associates, guy named Pastor Russell and his associate, just, uh, Rutherford, J.F. Rutherford, and, and it was advertised in a magazine called Golden Age, and it encouraged people to buy boxes of 10. It'll a shot. And if you say, 'All right, well, the power is back.'"
Well, I was talking about is talking to my son who was going with his mother to the Watchtower meetings. And I needed something simple that would even work with a child that's very highly suspicious, cuz he knows what I do. He knows that I deprogram Witnesses, and I'm getting phone calls in the home. And so we're talking there in the car. And he says, "Dad, you know, if you could just come back the Watchtower." And my statement was, "They wouldn't even let me come back anyway, because, you see, I'm opposed to spiritism, and I'm opposed to a particular publication, Angels and Women." And he would ask, "Well, what is that?" And I explain, "This is the book that, uh, that Russell tried to market, but he died before he could finish. And then Rutherford picked it up, and the, uh, leaders of the Watchtower at that time marketing this book that was written by a spirit medium, and you could buy it in lots of 10 at half price if you say you saw it in the Golden Age." And he says, "Well, we don't believe that anymore." And I said, "Isn't that super? I'm so glad that they don't do that anymore. But my question is, and the issue is, the people that marketed it, did they go to heaven? Were they faithful?" But you see, that's a required belief to become a witness. And I don't believe that these guys that were marketing this book went to heaven and were faithful Christians. And because I'm opposed to spiritism, they won't let me back." And he says, "Well, um, well, maybe they'll change the doctrine." I said, "Well, they'd have to change the doctrine that says they're the faithful slave, because they believe they were the faithful slave in the year that they were marketing that book. Now, if they were to dump that doctrine that they're the faithful slave, that would help a lot. That would really please me." And he says, "Well, maybe it could happen."
The point is, is that he realized he has a choice to be faithful to the principles that he's been learning at the Kingdom Hall, or faithful to the faithful slave that's teaching him those principles. But you can't be faithful to both. To be faithful to the faithful slave means you must be unfaithful to the principles they teach you. You can figure that out. Great. Let me know. And so I've done this. I've met with hardcore Witnesses that will normally refuse to look at photocopies. And I do this routine. It's very similar. And that's why I've written it up. Uh, the materials that were out on the table were a previous version. Next month, I'll have a newer updated version of this. But I do it. I've had Witnesses come to my door. They like, they've forgotten who I am. And within 5 minutes, these Witnesses would normally never look at photocopies. I had them looking at the photocopies because I don't bring them out. I wait until they beg to see them. And in every case, I've done this, and all the Christians that I've coached, they will not bring out the photocopies. In fact, the Witnesses will let me see them. And, and the instructions say, "Well, I don't want to upset you. Maybe I shouldn't bring out the photocopies." And I've gotten a room of six Witnesses, and I would not bring them out until all six begged me to bring out the photocopies. Then I did it. And there was no, no anger, because they said, "Please." In fact, one of them said, "Now listen, this is like the O.J. Simpson trial. We want to know what is in the envelope. Would you bring him out?" And then I bring him out one at a page. And oh, my. And so in my materials, I go through each of the, uh, common excuses that a loyal Witness, which I was, would have gone through. And you go through it until finally you get to the bottom line. And of course, the first photocopies are complimentary of the Watchtower. And then you get to the point where it says, "You know, angels and women." All of that material is there. So those are the, the, the my methods. I have three targets. In fact, on my little business card, um, I don't have one. They're up here anyway. On the back of the card, in fact, it lists. That's that's my meal ticket. On the back of the card, uh, thank you very much, are my favorite targets. It's things that Witnesses do not normally think about. But the point is, these are targets. Witnesses want to talk about. They want to talk about the evils of spiritism. They want to talk about neutrality. And they want to talk about being united in worship. And so you get the Witness to talk about what they want to talk about, and you let them talk. And then you ask some gentle questions, say, "Well, you know, I heard something odd the other day. And if you could help me out, it's a hurdle to getting involved with your group. If you could answer this question, I'd appreciate it." Um, "I understand that," and then you get into it. "Understand that I heard that some pastor in your religion used to market demonic books?" Or "I heard." And it's not enough details. And yet they said, "Well, what is this evidence?" And you say, "Well, I've got this evidence, but I really didn't want to upset you. That's not my purpose. But it looks genuine. But who should I ask? Should I ask other people, or should I ask you?" And they said, "Well, we're the ones you should ask." But I don't want to upset you. And they say, "It won't upset us." And they go, "Are you sure?" And they say, "Oh, it won't upset us." I don't know. And they said, "Please show us the evidence." Well, I don't know. Well, okay. And every time, every time, and they look at it. And the first few pages are always complimentary of the Watchtower. "Yes, that's what we believe." And, um, "Oh, prayer is so important. And we would never stop prayer. We would never stop singing songs to God." Oh dear. "This yearbook says we stop praying and singing to God for 46 years in Mexico. We weren't united in worship." Oh dear. "Our charter says we worship Jesus, but we punish people who do." And you say, "I'm having a tough time putting that together. If I were to believe that, that it was, if I were believe in your charter, for example, that it was okay to worship Jesus, could I become a member?" And they go, "No." So if I agree with your charter, I can't become a member. You know, I'm having a tough time putting that together. But, but if we could put, you know, and you do that. Or on the neutrality. So if I'm opposed to buying war bonds, can I become a member?" And the first, they say, "Yes." I, okay. "So your organization encouraged buying those $50 war bonds in 1919. Um, were they faithful Christians that went to heaven when they did that?" And of course, they're thinking of the 1919 doctrine that they are the faithful slave. "So if I believe it's wrong to buy war bonds, and anyone that encouraged that did not go to heaven, could I become a member?" They say, "No. You're too neutral to become a member of our organization. And you're too much opposed to spiritism to become to be a member of organization." And they choke on that. And they have to decide whether they're going to be loyal to what their organization teaches them, or loyal to the organization itself. And that's why it works.
Okay, so, um, I also have a, a booklet explaining the Trinity. When they finish that material, something to offer them, um, on the Trinity. I do not do this first because that's Bible ping pong. They're not interested in it anyway. Um, some of the quotes, and I'm going to mention just a couple, that I did not realize what was in the, the organization, the things that they taught when I was a member. For example, I knew about Jesus not being a mediator. But if you can stomach this February 15th, 1964, about the faithful slave, "They came to appreciate that they were a people not for the name of Jesus," said it three times. And this is the third time. The scripture says, "We're people, people for the name of Jesus." They said, "We are not people for the name of Jesus." Person that said that is going to have to stand in front of the judge. And it's not Judge Rutherford. It's not Michael, the recreated Archangel, either. And they're going to have to stand and say, "Jesus, we are not a people for you. We won't worship you, and we punish people who do." I'd be just a little bit nervous. Okay. Now, the reason this method works, and then they look at this stuff, and it makes them think because they think they're loyal to Jesus somewhat. And they hear this material. And like with my son, when they talk to my son, "Well, why doesn't your daddy come back to the Watchtower?" My son's answer is, "Because he's opposed to spiritism, and he's so opposed to spiritism, you guys won't let him back." What's this going to do to my son and everyone he talks to? You know, and I, he says, "I've seen it. I've, we've seen the book Angels and Women. It's, it's a much tougher approach for them to deal with than getting them to talk about something they don't want to talk about."
Okay, I'm going to share one other thing in the minutes that I have. I want to talk about some of the hurdles that I had to, uh, overcome in getting into mainstream Christianity because I now teach apologetics at a local church. These were things that makes a Witness nervous, and they have trouble dealing with. And one of these, I'm going to, uh, turn to, uh, Ezekiel. And, okay, Ezekiel 45. This was important to me in making the transition. I was reading Ezekiel 45, and I was doing a study on blood and how blood meant in the Old Testament, New Testament, and the value of it, and the value of the blood for cleansing. In Ezekiel 45, be in verse 19, it says, "And the priest shall take some of the blood from the sin offering and put it on the doorpost of the house, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar, and on the post of the gate of the inner court." And thus shall you do the seventh day of the month. And this is talking about the Passover time. In verse 21, it mentions the Passover. And if you were to turn back to chapter 43, beginning in verse 18, it also mentions about how the blood was used to cleanse, and that there was the altar that needed to be cleansed for the purpose of preparation for sin atonement and for the Passover. And I don't know if it hits you the way it hit me. But look at the parallels between the Old Testament and New. In the Old Testament Passover, Jesus died on Passover. The Old Testament lamb, Jesus was the lamb. Okay. The lamb's bones were not broken. Jesus' bones were not broken. The Old Testament lamb was taken outside the city. Jesus was taken outside the city. Did Jesus have an altar? Was there an altar in preparation for the Passover? The altar had to be cleansed. It started out as an unclean object and became clean. How did it become clean? Blood wasn't just splattered on it. It was put on the four corners. Jesus' altar, how many corners does it have? Was blood on each of the corners? I gained a new appreciation for the crown of thorns. Without that crown of thorns, there would have been blood on three corners. How many corners does a Watchtower say the altar had? They're saying Ezekiel wasn't fulfilled. The parallels between the Old Testament Passover and the New Testament Passover, they're saying that object stayed clean, but the power of that blood was to cleanse and sanctify the altar. They're saying that blood didn't have that kind of power. I got news, it does. I could appreciate now. I knew, I knew from my own research that it was very possibly a cross that he died on. But they kept telling me it was pagan. It was pagan. It was pagan. And so when I walked in a church and I saw that cross, I said, "All right, I can believe he died on it." But I felt it was unclean until I came across Ezekiel 45. And if you read Exodus 24, which we had earlier this morning with the Lord's Supper, uh, we read in Exodus 24. But if you read it, it says there were basins of blood, and then they sprinkled blood in the altar. But it wasn't just sprinkled. It was in the four corners of the altar. This is prophetic because the four corners of Jesus' altar were touched by the blood. And who put the blood there? The high priest put the blood there. And now I understood in Galatians 6:14 when Paul said, "I boast about the cross." This wasn't just an unclean object. He was talking about the altar, the sacred altar that had been cleansed for Passover to bear the lamb. Now when I look at the cross and think about the crown of thorns, this is prophetic. The cross is his altar. And don't tell me it's pagan or unclean, because the power of his blood cleansed it. That was one of the hurdles, the cross, and what it was. And this is a hurdle for some Witnesses. They still feel unclean, or it's a stake, or it's a torture device. That's the Romans saw it as a torture device. The Romans, the Jews saw it as unclean. Christians see it as the altar. Okay. So these were some of the hurdles that I had to overcome. And I believe that God reached in the Watchtower and pulled me out. And yes, there was corruption. But what was the reason to get out? On account of his name, to worship Him. Okay. So please, uh, think of the methods that you in talking to Witnesses. And if they do have a hurdle about the cross, help them to see it's not a pagan object. It's his altar.