Transcription
So, there's an insane amount of overlap. And what's crazy here is that Alan Wade a few years prior had created um a homeland security software program that was also pre-crime-esque and similar to what Palantir ended up doing. It was called Kilad and he teamed up with Christine Maxwell to do that. [laughter]
I wonder what the uh Whitney Webb file in Palantir is like. Um, I'm sure it's it's long. It's got no. They probably know I have a mold allergy and [laughter] all sorts of stuff and that I'm visiting you having a conversation.
Well, I mean that's their job, right? Well, it's funny. So, let me tell but it's it's about pre-crime. It's about predicting stuff before it happens. And that's what I think a lot of people miss about Palantir. Um, because a lot of people say about mass surveillance, you know, well, I have nothing to hide, you know, but it's not about if you're doing something wrong now or not. It's about an algorithm thinking if you will do something wrong in the future.
I think I would definitely be on that algorithm. I think you would be as well.
Well, the problem is is that uh pre-crime has been inching along and actually a lot of people in Epstein world. I mean obviously Peter Thiel and Epstein had a relationship. Moore came out out about this um uh earlier this year uh after you know Thiel kind of tried to minimize his ties a few months earlier. Um uh but um Peter Thiel's Founders Fund co-invested in this company uh with Epstein uh and Wexner and Haim Saban called Carbine that basically had a pre-crime component to it. And Carbine has now uh colonized an insane amount of uh 911 emergency call services systems like throughout the US and are the uh main company at the forefront. If this legislation in the US is passed, it's called next generation or NG 911 where they're going to basically federalize and centralize all 911 emergency call systems and then when you centralize it, you can just put one company in charge. They've changed the board a lot since the Epstein scandal because Haim Saban was the chair and there were people on the board that were tied to Epstein, including a woman that he allegedly took to uh the UK to sort of uh soften up some US senators whose uh identity is still unknown uh before the Iraq war vote, but it's a story for another time. And uh you know, some other figures tied to Epstein were on the board and it would formerly been created by veterans of Israeli intelligence. Uh but now they only have one of the Israeli intelligence co-founders on the board. The the others have left to do other things. One of them now works for Erik Prince, I believe. Um and you know, they've kind of gone their their separate ways and they've tried to rebrand as a more American looking company, I guess. Uh like they I think they added uh Trump's uh former head of DHS, Kirstjen Nielsen, I think is her name, uh to the to the board. and they have Michael Chertoff, the former first one of the early heads of DHS under Bush um is there.
So it's like it's so everything and everyone is captured.
And everything is corrupt. I mean are I think that's kind of a simplification. I think not everything has always been like that. I think this particular group um once they got their hands on power, it's a faction. Um, you know, they've been consolidating control for a long time. And I think the advent of technology, big tech sort of taking over our lives has really facilitated that because as I my the whole conclusion to my book is that why would you take someone like Epstein down? You don't need people like him anymore to compromise people because all of our lives are increasingly online. And so if they want something on you, they can just harvest it off through, you know, whether it's, you know, Palantir, uh, you know, it ends up in your Palantir database. Basically, it's sucked up by the NSA or GCHQ or any of these other agencies, um, and and you're profiled, um, based on it. Or if there isn't incriminating stuff, they can plant incriminating stuff on your devices.
So, you're screwed either way. [snorts]
If they want to screw you, I mean, sure. Yeah. Um, and so it's much easier to consolidate power under those circumstances.
Do do you think they're and they elevate people who are compromised to positions of power? How did a guy like Dennis Hastert become speaker of the house of the United States when it was known that he was a pedophile years before getting to that position?
Because they can hold it over his head the whole time? [snorts] Um, do you think there were there were a lot of Epstein operated?
Well, yeah. I my whole book is about how Epstein was not an anomaly. You know, I mentioned the example of Adnan Khashoggi, but then, you know, I mentioned Robert E. Lee Gray, who Robert Maxwell hired, uh, when he came, you know, to the US, uh, and made his big entry into New York City. He was also involved in, uh, sex blackmail stuff. There was a Page Boy scandal he was related to in the 1980s, um, where, uh, oh, I forget the the guy's name. I think Larry Craig was the name of the main congressman or senator involved. Um, and Craig denied all the charges, but then got caught in uh the early 2000s for soliciting, you know, sex in a bathroom in an airport or something like that. Um, but there's been a ton of these scandals over the years. And then you have figures like Roy Cohn who I mentioned earlier [snorts] involved in in in sex blackmail activities as well. There's a lot of these figures.
Sex blackmail seems to become very useful.
Well, it is because I mean this is one of those things that's a holdover from the mob that later gets absorbed by intelligence agencies because they see its utility, you know.
So if we see someone rich, famous, knowing who, you know, knowing information, the sexual blackmail information, it interests the CIA, that's intelligence to them. We want to gather intelligence on these people and then use it to our benefit for national security interests.
Which is all economic.
Well, more often than not, but it's uh you know, it's obviously other things too.
Um, just I think it depends on the circumstance really.
It's [laughter] it's it's so hard to get your head around it, Whitney. Well, you know, I I've thought about I understand that my books are like a lot of information. Um, but the thing is we're never going to get an affidavit from the CIA being like, "Yes, we did bad things." Like, we've known they've done bad things in various decades. It's been very documented and they won't admit to bad things there in almost every one of those cases. So, it's like you're not going to get that about Epstein or about anybody else, you know?
Well, so why do you think Epstein became almost like the I don't know the central figure for all of this corrupt global elite metanarrative?
Well, he's just a microcosm of it really. But I think um
Is it his own?
He he became too exposed, I think. Um, especially after his first arrest and as he described it, he became radioactive, but he had you know before been able to move through all these different circles. um you know with impunity and was a a well-respected guy in these elite circles right he was useful to a lot of people mainly for money things but also for you know other more illegal things from you know [cough] [clears throat] what we know about the case as it's as it's developed so I think since then um I don't know he tried to rebrand as like a a tech entrepreneur and all this stuff but he was allegedly still cultivating important relationships He was uh reportedly advising Tesla on how to take Tesla private. Um he he claimed to be advising Treasury on their uh the Department of Treasury on cryptocurrency and anti-hacking efforts. Um all sorts of um he was still doing a lot of stuff uh between those arrests. It's just you know the public association was um you know no longer beneficial for a lot of powerful people.
But he was considered financially illiterate.
By who? Well, I think Eric Weinstein came out and said he's he's a.
Yeah, that's interesting. Doesn't he work for Thiel Capital? [snorts]
Well, um, Eric, you know, I'm not super familiar with Eric Weinstein's Epstein story, but as I understand it, he talks a lot more about his impressions of Epstein at the meeting as opposed to why why he was going there. And I believe he ran a hedge fund at the time. So, why would you be going to Epstein as a hedge fund guy? I don't know.
Well, it seems like everybody met with Epstein at one time.
Yeah. For financial stuff, but I do not believe that he was financially illiterate. He was very successful. He would not have been tapped in the 80s by people like Adnan Khashoggi and Douglas Leigh if he was not savvy. He helped orchestrate one of the largest Ponzi schemes in US industry history at Towers Financial. Uh but his name got dropped from the case like three months in. So, I mean, how do you do that by being financially illiterate?
Well, didn't [clears throat]
Why would Leslie Wexner give you power of attorney over all of his affairs?
Well, that is also very weird, though.
But would he do that for someone who's financially illiterate because Epstein had several years between 1987 or 1985, depending on who you believe when the introduction was made.
But, but why give it to him anyway?
Well, obviously Wexner liked Epstein very much. I think there's no uh questions there. So, there's this murder of of Wexner's uh tax attorney.
Yeah.
Um and then not long after that, Epstein comes into Wexner's world and untangles his tangled finances, whatever that means. Um and Epstein during that time, you know, before then, between 1981 and 1985, uh described himself as a financial bounty hunter. He was hired to find money that had been stolen and he hid away stolen money for powerful people. He played both sides. And someone who can effectively do that, he was hired by like very fancy like aristocratic people for those purposes. Admittedly, like a very aristocratic Spanish family, uh, being one of them, they would not just hire some financially illiterate idiot to do that kind of stuff for them. And Adnan Khashoggi was one of his clients, too. He's not going to hire in a financially illiterate guy to do that. I think that is it's it's it's bull and it's part of this narrative that's been woven about Epstein about how he was just charismatic and him being good at anything else was just a facade because well, yeah, because by that narrative inherently means don't look any deeper into what Epstein was doing, uh, you know, in his early history, for example.
Well, let's talk about that. Sure.
Is this the arms trafficking?
Uh yeah, among other things. So,
Okay. Can we go So, can we go back further just for people who don't understand how did he become a thing? Because wasn't he
No one really knows, but it all seems to have started with this backpacking trip to Europe in 1971. And this was when he was a college dropout. I think he went to uh Cooper Union I think for a few years didn't finish um and then was started at NYU in 1971 and through 74 but didn't get a degree something like that um and somewhere in 19 1971 he went backpacking to Europe and he was in the UK and so in the UK he became close friends with uh this famous uh artist uh Jacqueline Du Pré um And reportedly he claimed through her uh develop like got sort of an in with the royal family at that point. Uh I don't really know if that's true but he comes back from that backpacking trip and he's hanging out at Jimmy Goldsmith's house. And Jimmy Goldsmith is an interesting figure. If you are a fan of Adam Curtis documentaries you may uh remember him from the Mayfair set. uh he is uh a currency speculator or was he was very close to uh Robert Maxwell among other figures. He was a member of this very interesting nexus um in uh Mayfair uh called the Clermont Club which was sort of this elite gambling club that a lot of interesting figures uh interesting figures were tied to including figures with intelligence links, organized crime links and sex blackmail links. So, for example, if you're familiar with the Profumo affair in UK politics, uh the nexus responsible for that, which brought down the government of Harold Macmillan, uh has its nexus at the Clermont Club. Um and Jimmy Goldsmith uh was a member of that along with people that were also very close to Robert Maxwell like uh Roland Roland or Tiny Rowland as he's uh as he's remembered. And another uh well-known member is uh David Stirling who basically started a lot of this uh movement, the private mercenary phenomenon in in Britain um among other things. So um definitely a network of powerful people and a lot of uh his early uh Epstein's early high society New York contacts uh his earliest ones a lot of them met him at Jimmy Goldsmith's mansion in New York.
How were they connected? So he So okay, so originally he's networking.
Yeah, but he's a college dropout. Something happens when he goes to Britain. We don't really know, but he gets connected with this crowd.
Do you have a suspicion?
Um it may have been through his daughter, uh Isabelle Goldsmith. She's in the black book. It's But I I mean it's hard it's hard to know. Also, Jacqueline Du Pré um was uh reportedly uh cultivated ties with sort of the New York Jewish community uh because she converted to Judaism in 1967. She was married um I think to an Israeli musician, but she became close to she was close also to Itzhak Perlman uh who's a famous um New York musician. I think he's a violinist. I can't remember exactly what instruments he plays. Sorry. Um but he um and and Epstein had a pretty significant relationship also. But it's important to point out when I say Epstein had a relationship with people, I'm not saying he they had a sex blackmail relationship necessarily. What we're trying to untangle here is the truth of who Epstein was and why was he taken down because I don't think he was taken down because in 2019 all of a sudden uh the US government became outraged about uh the sweetheart deal of 2007, you know, 12 years after the fact and then wanted to rectify some wrong. Um I think it was about something else. He pissed off somebody or uh you know something similar that befell Robert Maxwell for example.
Um, but anyway, stop becoming useful. Too much heat.
Something. Uh, I have some theories. We can get to those later. But, uh, going back to early Epstein, um, yeah, so he's in this network with, uh, Jimmy Goldsmith, and he gets hired in 1974. Um, which is, uh, the year he stops, also the year he stops going to university for any any reason. Um, and gets hired at the Dalton School, which is this elite New York uh private school. and uh he's hired uh by um Donald Barr, who's William Barr's father. Donald Barr had worked at the OSS and which is the precursor to the CIA and then after that had been involved in all of these programs to identify uh gifted children um when they were um you know high schoolers and things like that. And Epstein would have fallen in that category. We don't know if there was a connection there, but Epstein graduated high school like two years early. He was a a math wiz and also got a um scholarship to go to Interlochen where he would later return to a fend actually uh which is this kind of elite uh music school for really talented kids. Um, and he I I think he went there because he was good at the bassoon or something, but he was apparently a ma really good at at math and uh could play a lot of different instruments and was um, you know, reportedly very talented and he obviously caught people's attention for some reason. Um, you know,
Bear Stearns from there.
H, it was Bear Stearns from there. It depends on who you believe about uh who hired him, but it was Ace Greenberg at the end of the day, who became CEO or the head of Bear Stearns, I think in 1978. Um, but you know, there's a lot of people there's a lot of baton passing here for responsibility. Um, and I think that's kind of common now that Epstein is kind of an an infamous character, right?
Yeah. Um, so the sister um or sorry his allegedly it was the daughter of Ace Greenberg. She denies it. Um, it was uh she says it was some uh kid at school uh one of her friends at or no another kid at school. Her their dad was friendly with Greenberg and recommended Epstein to Greenberg. I don't know. There's all these different stories but there's an agreement that it was Greenberg that brought him to Bear Stearns.
Okay. It's well it's it's a little complicated. Sorry. But basically, you know, he joins Epstein joins Bear Stearns in 76 and by 1980 he's like a limited partner. He has a very meteoric rise.
At the firm. Oh yeah, he was basically Greenberg's protégé and then he leaves in 1981. Um, there's a lot of again a lot of different stories there. Um, but it seems like the most likely explanation is that there was this SEC investigation because the trade at the center of that investigation happens the day before um Epstein resigns Bear Stearns and the official story that he had been fined uh for not reporting some uh something in the expense account appropriately. um it doesn't really make sense with why he would like leave um a a job as a limited partner netting him a lot of money for a fine that was relatively small. It just and and then you have other Bear Stearns executives and Epstein himself say oh I wanted to strike out on my own and make my own business at that point. Um, there again a lot of conflicting information but the SEC case revolves around the Bronfman family um insider trading involving serums um and a lot of other people that are sort of in this network. Uh one of the guys involved in that insider trading scandal uh later becomes a big part of Jimmy Goldsmith's corporate raiding in the US and his acquisition of this company called Crown Zellerbach. Um and which is part of this well I don't want to get I don't want to throw out too many names that confuses people. Um, but the [snorts] Drexel Burnham and Lambert, they're like the heart of a lot of the savings and loans and junk bond scandal financial funny business going on in the in the 80s and Epstein has a lot of ties to those that crowd. Um, and so um, Epstein appears to have been advised to have to leave Bear Stearns because of that investigation. I argue in the book it was probably to take heat off of Ace Greenberg who had become CEO at that point. um Epstein was his protégé and having him sort of go and take the fall for it made it a lot um made it a lot easier um for for [clears throat] them. But what's interesting about this too is that the lawyer uh for Bear Stearns up until a few weeks prior had been Bill Casey who had just been tapped as Reagan's CIA director. So whoever Bill Casey left his whole legal portfolio to of all his long time legal clients would have been the person to make that call. And then after he leaves he, you know, becomes involved in this financial bounty hunting where he's um hiding and finding money for powerful people in, you know, offshore shadow bank world. And 1981 is also where um Casey uh brings in Khashoggi for Iran-Contra related purposes and all of that. And Khashoggi becomes Epstein's client. Um all sorts of things start to kick off.
The same names keep coming up over and over again. Sometimes not even just like it's like a it's the family.
Well, like I was saying earlier, we're not going to get a signed affidavit from like the CIA or, you know, any intelligence agency talking about Epstein, uh, including Israel's. So, um, what are we left with? Well, we have to look at what is ultimately, you know, I guess circumstantial evidence, but you stack enough of it over the decades, you know, you