Edmund McMillen on creating Mewgenics, 1m Copies Sold, DLC Plans & Personal Struggles

You know, my favorite enemy, the floater in the sewer. It's an inspired design, man. That must have taken you a while to get that that rhyme, right? Just perfect. Yeah. It's very hard to draw that shape.

The meow button in the menu. Is that your idea? No, that's Tyler's idea. Tyler did that. Yeah. No, he's surprised. He's like, "Check this out." And I'm like, "Oh my god."

I just realized what Bos was thinking at the end. It's the um one that's given me the most trouble is the one that keeps reviving the dead bodies everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but that's an easy one. If you just kill the bodies, if you kill the bodies, you can't do anything. Just kill the bodies. I'm doing that. I'm trying. I'm trying, man. You can also He kills me and then he revives my guys. Yeah. Don't let Don't let him do that, man.

What do I do? I have to get a meow in this game for the DLC. Well, not much since you have a strong Australian accent. I don't think we have many Australian cats. You need an Australian meow. Yeah, it's true. I'll hit you up. I'll hit you up for the DLC. Yeah, I'm just working with a lot of really amazing people and Tyler is a really amazing programmer and designer and um and friend and it was it was um very fun and I hope I continue to work on it. The scariest thing about releasing the game was

Ladies and gentlemen, look who we have here. Edmund, it is a pleasure, an honor, man. How are you today? Thanks for coming on. I'm good. I just noticed you have a a Giger book back there. Yeah, I'm a man of culture. Yeah. I just floated it in there. No, I actually forgot it was there. Um my my brother got it for me as a gift. Um I love his uh his works. Obviously, Alien, most well known for Alien, but uh I'm sure you're familiar with his works. Of course. Of course.

How are you doing, man? after you know it was announced Mugenics 1 million sold. I've poured 65 hours in. I'm about 42%. That sound about right? Good for you. Yeah, that sounds good. Sounds It sounds great. I'm pretty surprised. There's some people who are really hardcore. Um cuz we were like an average player will take about 200 hours to beat the game. Um but there are some people who are beating the game in under 100 hours. It's possible to beat the game. Like I think Tyler did the math and it was like 55 hours I think if you play hyper optimally and play quick and don't ever die.

Well, I've definitely died. I've definitely died, man. There was um this one boss. He just keeps effing me over. No, you know what it was? It was the man in the moon. He was the biggest issue recently. He um I for I didn't realize you had to actually use his hands to kind of attack him. So that that was just my fault. But you don't have to. I know you don't have to, but you can you can brute force. It's just going to take forever. And if you got the build for it, you can do it. But there are like three or four different ways you can kind of kill them if you want.

I'm at the Kaijus now. And that was sick. So you're saying you drew all these characters yourself. You created all all from hand handdrawn yourself? Yeah. Everything that's like everything black outlined is all um me except for the uh Takara did the um the little I want to call them profile pics like the the images in the corner of different enemies and stuff like that. Takara did those. She redrew those. Um but yeah, no all the character design and all the character stuff, whatever else. I didn't animate them though. I animated a few in the beginning and then I realized I can't do this. this is going to be so animationheavy that we need help. And we hired uh I think throughout four good four years of development, we had on average um three animators part-time that were kind of carrying this through to the end. And uh Marty, who was the lead, he did he did a lot of really heavy lifting, the really uh crazy bosses, the big big big bosses. Um and uh a lot of the big cut scenes were all him, too.

Dude, shout out to Marty. the kaiju, the pyro paraphina. Um, every time he goes on fire, he goes kind of crazy and just Yeah. It adds that personality to the game, you know, that that Oh, yeah. No, Marty can bring he brings myself to life in ways that I've never seen before. It's it's it's a huge treat. And he just got better and better as the years went by. He was there kind of from the beginning. And um he was the one who said, "I think I'm going to need help. I can't do this by myself." Um, and uh, and we got we got help for him, but he still was able to carry like it's it's very like painterly in in the way we chose to use him because, you know, you want to focus the eye on the things that are the most eye-catching. So, we put them on the big big bosses so they look extra sharp. And yeah, he does some crazy stuff. If you go frame by frame on some of his animations, he does like crazy exaggerated things.

That's what I'm saying. because I for thumbnails and stuff I I'll scrape through very slowly and I can see the the minor details that he does. What kind of direction would you give him or do you kind of let him go off to his own devices? Like are you a hands-off boss or hands on? I'm um uh a little bit of both. Um I don't know for so from my perspective I'm very handsoff and I I thought wow I'm so hands off and then I heard in an interview that Matias did who did um a lot the music Matias and John did the music and I heard that I'm not I'm very hands and and require many edits and all this other stuff but um I don't I think it's somewhere in between. Um, I with Marty, I give him, you know, guidelines of what I want to see, but I keep him loose loose enough for him to have fun with doing them because I know that he'll be able to compliment. So, it's like Pyhina scream is just Pyro Fina does some crazy scream and then then the corners of the level ignite and fire. Um, or she does a jump and pounds down. Like, that's all it is. And then he that's how it's written or that's that's how it's written. And and he'll that's how it's written. and he just he just does it for it. For cut scenes, I do I'm a little bit more strict. I do I storyboard out everything. Um I I give all the camera all the camera all the different shots um in in game and then I write uh as in-depth of a description as I possibly can on what's happening in the scene. Um, unless there's a loose part, which I usually say, you know, this is the general idea of what I would like here because a lot of it would be like they fight and it's just like, you know, or I mean one one of the cut scenes was like they fight and he bashes his head against the thing repeatedly and it's I want this to feel I want you to feel like this is horrible how how much this is pounding this person's head into something. There's little things like that, but um a lot of the times I'll just hand it to Mario and be like, "There's it's a fight scene. Make it fun and here's a few little backgrounds to to play with and and he'll just do it."

Dude, how many times is Guillotina going to return? You know, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I scraped through the first fight, then I scraped through the second and it just keeps returning. Yeah, Guillotine is so fun. She's just a really fun design. And I um there's that song, The Cat Came Back. Um Brilliant. Yeah. And when I was little, there was this book. Um he might even be it might even be from the UK. It's about this cat that eats the whole town. Do you know this? Oh, no. I don't. No. It's a story about this cat and he meets different people. He's really hungry and he eats like the first thing he does is he eats his the mom's um or his his owner's stew. It's like his stew and the and the and the whole bucket or the whole pot that the stew is in and he gets bigger. He goes outside and then he meets somebody on the street and then he eats them and he gets bigger and he keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and then there's like a um the woodsman that comes and chops him open and then all the people come out in reverse order. That's it's a kids book. Um, I really love that as a kid and and Guillotina was that I was like trying to do com combo the cat came back and that book into this expanding giant cat that would just eat everything. I liked her so much that I wanted her to keep coming back.

And there's a bit of a would you say a Snorlax kind of inspo? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, I would say I would say so for sure. I mean it's kind of hard to avoid that. I think because I was drawing this big fat round character and then realizing that Snorlax kind I think they I think Snorlax is a cat. They they have ears and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I've never thought about it, but and I was like, "Oh, okay." Um this is very I mean a a lot of my a lot of the designs in here like, you know, are very Pokemones. Like Dick uh is very Gengar-ish and uh I like I always like that design. Um, but uh I mean this is kind of it's kind this is kind of my Pokemon. You know, if if Super Meat Boy was my uh Mario Brothers and uh Bind of Isaac was my Zelda, then this is my Pokemon. So, I try to instead of catching them all, they all die, you know. Yeah, you catch them. You catch them and you collect you collect them even if they are dead. Got to collect them all.

Oh, you know my favorite enemy? The floater in the sewer. It's an inspired design, man. It's an inspired design. That must have taken you a while to get that that rhyme. Just perfect. Yeah, it's very hard to draw that shape. It's such a thankless job for Marty, though, because all I did was draw a few pieces and then he had to make it roll. The way it rolls, man. I I think I died laugh. I haven't laughed that hard at an enemy before. Um, how did you even start with all this, man? cuz I I saw an interview with you I reckon five or 6 years ago and you said yeah I'm working on eugenics probably 1 to two year project here we are 6 years later what where did that sort of scope change for you like because you don't set out to do 200hour campaign surely.

Yeah um I think I think about eight months ago me and Tyler when we had finally finished the game for the most part and I was the one playing it more because Tyler was really busy. So, I'd be play testing and fixing and play testing and fixing and he would just be working and I finally beat the game and I was like, I've got 240 hours and then I think we made it too big. But it's not like we could like cut it out there. Like I don't you're not Are you you're not in chapter 3? Are you just started chapter 3? Did you just start act three? Yeah. Robbington act three and then and like unlocking act three. That's just like the tip tip tippy tip of act three. It's just to show you that it's there. You're not really in it yet.

I feel like I'm playing well, though. I don't know. You tell me. I feel like I'm doing okay. But I think you're doing fantastic. I think you're doing fantastic. I mean, I think at your rate, you'll probably be able to beat the beat the game by 100 hours, I think. Oh, okay. Cool. You're halfway there. It's kind of sad. It's kind of sad at one point because I I just wanted to keep going, but Oh, it keeps doing. Don't worry. Don't worry. I haven't even tried some of the classes, so you know. Yeah, there you go. And you probably don't have them all either. No, I heard there's a jester. Not to be spoilery, but Yep. He'd be fun to use. I just got the psychic.

The uh the uh Have you um been to the Throbbing Domain? I just went there just like literally last night. Yeah. Okay. Have you done the cooler quest? No, I don't think so. Yeah, you're probably going to do that's your like next thing. It's a kind of a it's a bit of a barrier to make sure that you're doing the other stuff before you because the game can kind of go in different directions and a lot of people will just like rush towards this one point and when you get there we have to be like no no you got to do some of these quests like make sure you're doing these quests and then that kind of opens people's eyes to the quests that they're uh they have waiting for them and then you kind of got to do that in order to get further and further and further. So you did you ever worry, oh this game's too hard or it's too long, or you just trusted the process, trusted your vision?

We did a lot of testing. We had a lot of active testers over over a good year year and a half um who could who gave pretty good feedback and we could watch and see and just at least get a general idea of what was too hard and what wasn't. We did a lot of tweaking for sure. We actually I think we ended up making we ended up making the third act a little harder in the end because it felt a little too easy at times. It's a really hard game to balance because like I like Isaac, you you can stumble across a combo and that combo can carry you and you can and you can do it if you if you can make it work. Dumb muscle man. Yeah. And that that and that's fine. Like we want you to especially if it's like something that you found a few items that get broken when they're put together on a specific class and you are the one who thought, "Hey, if I put this on my necromancer, it automatically kills him at the beginning of the round and then revise him the end of the turn." You know, like if we want to reward the player for creative thinking, and that's kind of what this game's about. So, we don't want to take it away from you. Uh we also don't want to make the game require you to be broken in order to beat it. So, it took a little it took a little bit of balancing, but I think it's pretty good.

I feel Oh, it's it's an amazing game, man. If I haven't said that already, I'm loving it. The I did notice I feel like I was on a bit of a bad run there in the desert and then I feel like the game sort of said, "Geez, you're playing [ __ ] Here's a few helpful little things here." And then I Surely you've done something there. because I was playing so terrible and then all of a sudden I feel like it just clicked or am is that is that just all in my head? I mean, it's RNG. Um but you know, be behind the scenes there is a bit of leaning of if if you are sucking really really bad then we do not throw really horrible things on top of that in in events and stuff like that. like elite enemies that kind of thing. Yeah. Not so much that it's cuz you can choose that you can you control whether you know the direction you're going if you're going a hard path or not but uh mostly when it comes to events like the there are these things called random happenings. Um sometimes they'll pop up. It'll be like so and so got food poisoning or whatever else. There's a counterpoint to those things too. They're called blessings. They're they're more rare. Um, and they can happen when your luck's really high or um, oh, there's a little bit of a counterbalance if you're sucking, if you're if you're struggling to get through sometimes. They It's just a tiny little percentage boost that can can really make the RNG feels like feel like it's doing something for you.

So, you only need that little switch for it to really feel Yeah. For the player, we do the same thing with the opposite as well. Like if you're playing really really well, we don't we don't like pull any punches when it comes to what what could happen in events and stuff like that. No. So the game is the game is watching you to some degree.

I went in a tomb and the first time I went all the way down the tomb and I got 99 coins or something, right? And then you know this. The second time I went down there, my guy was trapped. Yeah. Yeah. You really trolled me with that one, man. I'm thinking I'm getting 99 coins again. No. I don't know you [ __ ] not, Dan. Sorry. That's one of my favorite events. It's um it's one of a few sequential events that are pretty rare in the event sequence and that one's in the desert, so it's more common. But there's some really like you may have thought, "Oh, that's, you know, I made out like a bandit with 100 coins." There's way more there that you just didn't roll into. Really? There's more. Oh, yeah. There's more. You kidding? No, there's more.

There's more in there. Um, I would love to do more of that, too. I' I'd love in a DLC to do some like branching a branching event sequence that has like four different like splits and so you can keep replaying that little thing that pops up and see see where you can go. Because whenever I see that pop up and in a um in somebody on Twitch or whatever else, I'm like, "Oh, wonder if they're going to make it. Wonder if they're going to see the end." And they never do. Do you enjoy watching streamers fail or succeed more? Succeed. Succeed. I I enjoy people struggle then succeed. That's the most enjoyable cuz this game is shines really really bright when we throw a wrench in the gears and we say how what are you going to do? And then you recover. Like then it's like wow. cuz that we we we want you to feel smart and every every wrench we throw at you um will have something you can pivot around and make it work. And I think one of the most fun things is like one of the most disastrous things that can happen to you on a run is get blood frenzy. And I don't know if you've had it, but yeah, blood frenzy is is harsh, but if you can figure out how to use it, it's insanely good and it's one of the best disorders in the game. It's it's the Bob's brain of um of things that can happen in in mugenics. And um I've seen my wife get it and then she had a tank with the you know the toss ability or whatever and she could just throw the the fighter with with uh with blood frenzy to the backlines of of the enemies and then just kill every enemy. And as and as long as the tank was the one closest to him when he comes back, then he's not going to oneshot the tank and you're fine. That's just cool to watch.

It's kind of what I was doing. I had a I I was pumping my fighter with extra turns and like buffs and with dumb muscle and just getting him in there and just smashing the enemies. That that seemed to go all right for me. But I just I'm I'm now at the stage where I'm kind of tinkering with the new classes. I just realized what Bos was thinking of the end. It's the um the one that's given me the most trouble is the one that keeps reviving the dead bodies everywhere. He's only in the desert early. He's not a big big boss or anything, but he's just so me. Yeah. Uh yeah. Yeah. I mean, but that's an easy one. If you just kill the bodies, if you kill the bodies, you can't do anything. I know. Just kill the bodies. I'm doing that. I'm trying. I'm trying, man. If he kills me and then he revives my guys. Yeah. Don't let Don't let him do that. I mean, it's not it's not as bad as the as the the cleric. I forget what we named that. marshmallow or something, whatever it was called. There's a cleric um who charms your dudes and turns them against you and if you lose if you lose to it, it'll charm your guy permanently and that'll be there next time you fight them. You know, you're fighting both. Oh, no. Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Hilarious, man.

I I love the details you put into this. Even the like I have Look, I've been guilty to saves come a bit like the Steven thing that came up that first that was brilliant. Um the even just the menu is different every time. Yeah. Is that that was a conscious choice of obviously. Yeah. I mean I the barrier I was trying to minmax uh getting across to people like that this game is meant to be replayed. That was actually a hard cell for The Binding of Isaac when it came out and people did not understand why you would want to play a game over and over and over again. Um, and with this game too is I think a lot of people saw they saw the most common thing they they would see the game and they'd be like, "Oh, this is Into the Breach and um, I played that game and it wasn't for me because I'm not my brain's not big enough or whatever." And I I don't I I that was a hurdle we had to get over to try to explain like this is not chess. This is chesslike, but it's not chess. There's a lot of randomness to it. There's a lot of a lot of forgiveness um to making mistakes. Um, and the game is meant to be replayed and it's enjoyable when it is replayed. And you I tried to complement that by doing every intro of the game is different. Every time you p click the pause menu, it pops up a bunch of random different things. I want it to feel endlessly random in hopes that it will kind of bring the theme to you even subconsciously when you're starting out. Um, and then once you play a few times, you'll see it for real in game.

Well, not even even the details like the fire spreading with the grass and, you know, the electricity and the water spreads everywhere and these these other mechanics that work in game play. Not all games do that. And I love when games, you know, with the physics and yeah, the natural sort of weather effect, that kind of thing, doing all that. That's was that hard to actually kind of work in the game? Surprisingly not. It that was something that came out with, you know, initially since this game was kind of a play on Pokemon. We decided that we were going to do like elements. Um, and I kind of don't like the way that they do elements in in Pokemon. It's the rock paper scissors aspect of elements is is like feels kind of kidittish. I don't know. and its design like basic um and we considered that in the beginning and then Tyler just suggested we do something like Breath of the Wild um and make and make the elements part of the environment um and they did it in Spalunky as well. There was a lot of little Splunky things where like you know a toad could catch on fire and then jump in the water and it would go out that sort of stuff. Um, and those little subtle things that to me the most appealing aspect initially wasn't just mechanical. It was more of like, oh, this will feel like a living world. Like if you can set the grass on fire and then it spreads um at the end of the turn or you could blow on fire to like stoke the flames or spread spread the fire. Um, it would feel like a living world and you could also use it strategically. And then once we had I mean obviously that we had water um water, fire, and and and grass were like the first three things that we had. And then we were just kind of like well, wouldn't wouldn't water grow grass. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And then add that in. Yep. Yeah. And if you go into the water, wouldn't you be wet? Yep. And it just falling. That's what I mean. Yeah.

And you're saying that wasn't that hard to do? No, I mean it was just I mean nothing I I could say if Tyler was here, he would kind of say nothing was really hard to do, but um it was fun to do. Uh and it took it took just kind of a lot of going back and forth there. There was a lot of like I remember when we were fa we were at a crossroads where it was like how far are we going with this? Because Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've got we've got a piece of meat. Now what happens when the meat gets cooked? I mean how could we not want to do cooked meat? So we got to do cooked meat and then what if some what if like the food spoils and it's rotten? Then we have to do rotten meat which is poisonous meat. But then we have to do cooked poisonous meat and then we have to do what if you cleanse what if you put holy element because holy is an element. Does that work? What if you Yeah. What if you put holy element on poison food? Then it has to cleanse the the poison off, you know? It just like kept going and going and going. And then we started to add stuff like gravity. I don't even know if you're there yet. Gravity element. Yeah, there's gravity elements. And uh [ __ ] there's um there's explosive element, there's earth element, there's some I think dirt was the last one that we added um which we just barely started to play around with I think. And that's where you cut it off. Is it the dirt? That was the last. Yeah, I think dirt. Dirt. Gravity might have been the last, but it was dirt and then um gravity. I think it was I think those were the last ones.

Where did you How did you know when to cut off the classes cuz you could just keep making classes, you know, and I'm sure some made the cutting room floor. Yeah. Um or well I think I think it was just so right now the most obvious thing for me is that there are not enough ranged classes. It's like you you lean on the hunter like pretty hard. Um so obviously DLC will have another uh ranged class for sure. Um we have four uh that we have in mind but um initially it was like the six essential kind of D&D classes that are really well-rounded and very different than one another. And then we wanted to do six more which we called advanced classes which had more difficult mechanics to understand more complicated and um weird mechanics. Yeah. And we did we did those six spoiler. And then we have colorless which is without a class. And then there's jester. So in the end it was 14. And we stopped there because you have to make 75 abilities for to make a new to make a new um and not only that, you have 75 abilities and then you have to do all the unlocks. And so I don't even know how many that is, but that's a lot of different And you've got to get creative to even just come up with a handful, let alone 70. Jesus. Yeah. We don't want it to be boring. A lot of people don't understand it's like there's a 1,200 plus uh abilities in the game and they're all completely different than one another. Like we're not just doing what usual tactic games do where you just take a fire ability that deals six damage and then we added um an earth ability that just the same ability as fire ability except it deals eight damage. You know that sort of thing.

Are there any hidden shortcuts with the animations there or do they all have different animations? They don't all have different animations. I actually one of the the cutting room floor things is that in the during the last week of development, Wes, who is our um our uh cat animator, he animates all the cats um because they're rigged completely differently and there's more programming involved in that than just straight animation. But he submitted 20 new animations for the cats that I needed for animations that I thought could be punched up and those are just kind of sitting now in my lap. So Oh, I might What do you mean punched up? Like there are some abilities that don't have completely unique animations, right? So you're gonna you're gonna use them for later. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think like each class will have like five animations that I like like um like the mage has like a series of animations that are like a like a little a little magic boof or like a big magic boof or like a mega magic whoosh like that. these different these different animations that they use. Like the necromancer does this one where it like floats up into the air and like pulls things out of the earth. Um there's a few ones of those. So each of each of the classes has a a bunch of different animations, but there are some animations that it's like, well, we want something very specific here. Um and we don't have it, so Wes will make it and then I'll go back through and add it to the appropriate animations. And um even though to you guys it seems fine, I can still see the ones that are missing the extra polish. I'm sure I'll update him Monday.

What um how's your relationship with Tyler grown over the last six years? Like do you guys butt heads at all or you pretty on the same page? How do you when you both disagree? How do you come to a resolution? We agree with almost everything, but that we we have we have we do we have buted heads. I think in the past, I think when we were trying to understand what the game was and what these different abilities were, we would argue back and forth on which abilities were stronger, needed to be nerfed, um or um a lot of the argument, the biggest argument that we had was arguing over a word like what we name of which he ended up putting up online and having people vote for because we could not agree and we were both Can you give me an example of one? Yeah, it's um it's an ability. I think it's a um a tinkerer ability. Uh it's called fuzzy feet. It's it's the one where you like the the further you walk, you build up a static charge and then you can unleash it. So it was like a movement ability tied to that and I wanted to call it static shock. Um and he wanted to call it fuzzy feet and and yeah, he posted it online and I had to concede to the fact that almost everybody said fuzzy feet. I still think it's wrong. I think that that kind of fits the game or fuzzy feet. That's the argument up to back it up. That's the argument. I mean, my idea was the more boring, less creative idea. I just wanted makes more sense. It does. You instantly know what it does because it's called static shock. Um, and I wanted that feedback into the mechanic in order for you to understand it. I know it's not as fun and spicy and cute as fuzzy feet, which is why everybody voted on it. Um, but that's my argument. That was that was one of As soon as he puts this up, I've lost. Did you? No, I was I I was sure that it was I I was sure that I was going to win, which is why I was like, "Sure, post it." We'll go with what the people say. There's just little Yeah, little bits and pieces like that. Um, but for the most part, like sometimes if I request something that is that I know that it for him means building a new system, which he's not going to be keen on doing at the end of development, that I'm going to have to ask like five different ways and and try to wiggle around and try to get him to come up with like a way that makes it work. Uh, so you're negotiating as well. Well, I mean, yeah, like I I'm not the programmer, you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. And in the end, I have I can't I can't um I can't I mean, I guess I could, but I I don't want to I don't I'm not going to force the guy to do something that he also is going to take a shitload of time and might not be the correct decision. Um but you know, we come we agree we agree on just mostly everything. It was it was a very fun design experience. like I used to not really share in the design of a game and I was very very very controlling. Um I wanted to be the one who did everything when it came to design and with with the Tyler in a game this size we kind of just agreed like we split a lot of the work like it was like for each character one person would assume lead and then another person would assume support. So like like um like Tyler Tyler designed most of Tinkerer. It was very very Tyler design and I like that because it's not a it's not a design I would have come up with but it was pretty fun and and used so many interesting mechanics. So he would come up with the bulk of that and then I would just kind of go through his designs and come up and fill the gaps and just play support there. Um um and then he would just kind of do the same for me with stuff like necromancer and whatever else. It it's um it was a very fun fun exchange and we were gonna Yeah. The plan is we we both have two classes that we want to do for the DLC and that's we've lock we locked that down right away because he was very clear on the ones he wanted to do and I I'm Well, that's fair. Two each. Two each is fair. Yeah. I um I was going to picture a class idea. I mean, we need some more Aussie representation. And like we need like a Ned Kelly outlaw sort of shooter kind of guy, but um maybe that's a second deal. So you could throw that in. Um I'm not I'm not going to say anything about that. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, that's all right.

The um I wanted to ask you cuz you're a bit of a movie buff like me. Um well, I could tell because there was a bit of a lot of movie references. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Space Odyssey, Clockwork Orange of Cubric was there. Um, there's heaps of others I can think of. What movies would you say inspired Mugenics the most? All of them, man. I don't know. Let's see. I mean, it too many too many for anybody to be like, I'm I'm ripping off that one movie. They're just It's kind of just endless. I mean, of course, there's a bunch of movie references. I don't want to spoil it for you because there are Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm still I'm still not there. You're almost to the point where I could say that there are a select few movies that I think I would be like, well, this obviously, but um yeah.

I know you said the um that music inspires your creativity. Um listening to music. Um so in in saying that with the soundtrack that these guys came up with, I think it's one of the great soundtracks in a game I've ever heard. I mean, the Gambit, the Gambit boss fight music is brilliant. Um, just to name one. How did you work with those guys to to do all this music? There's a ton of music, too. Yeah. Uh, it was a lot of fun. Um, it was also really cool, too, cuz as you mentioned, I'm super inspired by music. So, it was really helpful to have them create something and then bounce it back to me and then that kind of fill me back up. like it kept it kept the dopamine hits coming, you know, and it kept it it kept the ball in the air. Uh, but yeah, and my interactions with them like so a funny story is that the first time so when I interacted with Matias was his band Sleepy Time Gorilla Museum had just basically not really broken up, but they just retired. And um he was looking for work and he had posted some stuff on his website saying he wanted to do voice work. And that was when I was working on The Binding of Isaac. And I thought, "Wow, I know this guy's voice." Um, because he he he did some vocals and and there's another band called Book of Knots and he sang a few songs on there and he has a very strong well well spoken well-versed voice. Um, and I was like, "Oh, it'd be really cool to have him be the narrator for The Binding of Isaac." And I had him do do a few lines and I hired him to do that for the game. And that's all he did, even though he's a musician. And um shortly after The Binding of Isaac, I started on on Mugenics and I called them up and I'm like, "You want to do you want to like do the music for Eugenics? Like we we need like 14 tracks and they I need them to all be like fully produced with with lyrics and all that good stuff. Um and I wanted to have this very retro 40s to 60s vibe." And um I wrote I wrote the lyrics to the song um and uh I sang it to him over the phone. It was the Mugenics theme song, Take a Cat, Rub It on a Cat. That was what I pitched to him. Yeah. And he was and he was like, "Yeah, yeah, okay." And then like they sent they sent it back and it was like, "Wow, this is like this is amazing." Better than what you thought. Yeah. Yeah. And like a lot of people will ask what hap what what was the falling out with me and Danny Baronowski and the falling out was that like the falling out was me realizing I really wanted to work with these guys and even though they had no track record for video game soundtracks or working in video games in the slightest. Uh I think Danny assumed that I was going to be using him for this. Um and I went with them and I think he was very hurt by that and just stopped speaking to me. But I was blown away. Like I was blown away by them just giving me exactly what I had in my head. And they just busted their asses for like a good six months of the early development of the prototype. Made a shitload of music. Um even to the point where everyone we talked to was like, "Even if this game sucks, the soundtrack's going to carry it." like like it's just when the game was cancelled um it was like uhoh what do we do with this music and I remember them asking like can we just release it on Band Camp and I'm like no no I like one day like I have a I have this dream that one day this will come back and it'll be okay and and I think every few years they would they would ask me like oh what's going on with the mugenic stuff because we could really use some extra income and it would be nice to put put this up online and I'm like, "No, wait. No, hold. Just don't just wait a little bit longer." And then tough. That's tough. Yeah. Many, many years later, you know, six years ago, um, when we kind of restarted it, I'm like, "Okay, it's happening. We're going to we're going to pick it up where we left off, but this time there's going to be a bunch of technical stuff and I want I want new tracks, same vibe. I'll give I'll give you specifics on each of these things, and I I give them like themes. um like eating rats. I I think I just sent him stuff about, you know, cats that are in the alley and they're eating rats and and mice and and whatever else and go ahead have at it, you know. And I wanted it to be like a swing song that was like um a little bit um what's the word? Like old school Yeah, I know what you mean. Like a musical like you know that sort of thing. And uh yeah, they just did they just did it and it was like [ __ ] perfect. Okay, now I want four versions of this, you know, and I want them to all be exactly the same. They have to be exactly the same so we can crossfade between them depending on where you're at. And there's of course some back and forth on that because they've not done they not done anything like this really. Um, they did a little bit with with Binding of Isaac. Uh so it it was a little a little rough around the edges when when we started. Um, and then you know it it I just really love that whole big reveal of like you get familiar with this track and it kind of changes as you go and then boom, it's got this fully produced um, you know, with vocals and and everything and uh, for the bosses and stuff. And I think music's a pivotal part in games. I mean, in any movies, TV, it's Yeah, it's essential, isn't it? They did some special songs. There's um there's a lot there because a lot of it's really really goofy. Um and there are pockets of despair and realness to it that are peppered throughout um that kind of really showcase what the game is about in the lyrics of the song. Um, and I really love those tracks. And I remember when I There's one in particular that you haven't heard yet. It's called Chaos. Um, it's one of my favorite tracks. And there's a few lines in it that I feel like sum up the unspoken motive of an NPC and which is later revealed that um I think uh humanizes I don't know it goes from a joke this grand joke into something a little bit more serious which I really liked and I think the music is is is dipping in and out of that um at the end of the game and uh that was really inspiring to hear because it wasn't like I said to do that. Um I was going to say so you didn't you didn't give that direction. No, it was it was just I I may I may in my feedback for that song, I may have come off more serious because I was specific in in certain lines like I want this to be from

The perspective of this one person, um, trying to pick up the pieces and, um, rebuild something that is unrebuildable. And it became a little bit more serious in that song, which I thought was like, goosebump-inducing and really cool.

Uh, and then there's like, there's stuff like the "Have you heard the credits roll because you unlocked the, um, the lab, but get in the cages?" "Get in the cage" is, um, a really kind of >> fun one that's also really dark and kind of tells you what the game's about. >>

Why the credits roll then if I'm only 30, like I was 30% done and the credits roll there? What's the decision behind that? I want you to be able to see the credits because THE GAME'S TOO LONG. I also thought it would be fun because I, I thought I could do like a false, a false ending because that, that one usually plays when you've beat the second act and you don't know that there's a third act. I mean, people know there's a third act now, >> but my hopes were like, oh, oh, you, you'd assume that the game ended there, but really that's just like the midpoint or whatever. >>

So, is there another credits? You're telling me >> there's two more. >> There's another two. >> Another two. >> Two more. >> So, you got three credits actually. >> Yeah. You'll see. They're worth watching. >>

I did get spoiled on one, um, enemy, which I don't know how you got the rights to get him in a game. I guess it's free use. >> Know what I'm talking about. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I, uh, I don't, I, I'm waiting for that to be public knowledge. Um, because I think I, I, I, I want to see what the response is because I, I don't know who could be upset by that, but somebody has. Somebody's got to be, somebody's got to be upset by that. >>

It's bizarre, man, because I made a video, um, recently, his appearances in gaming, all his appearances, and he's not, hasn't been in many games. You wouldn't, you wouldn't have thought. So, yeah, maybe we can talk about that another time once it's more public, um, knowledge.

Uh, I got to ask you, the, the Tink character, is he, is he Isaac's dad? >> No. >> No. >> Okay. Thank you for debunking that. >> No. >> Damn, you silly Dan. No, that's just straight answer. No. Okay. >> No, Isaac's dad's Butch. No, wait. Isaac's dad's the, the radio DJ. >> Oh, wait. The, maybe the doctor. The doctor is Isaac's. Somebody's Isaac's dad. >> He's somewhere in there, >> right? >> You'll never know. >>

So, how are you feeling now? Like, I, I know you've had all these successes in your career, but this game, it's sold a million copies now, right? Is that the official figure that we're, we're with at the moment? >> Oh, yeah. Um, that's true. >>

You're so nonchalant about it, man. >> But what am I supposed to say? What's the, what's the correct social response? What is the socially acceptable response? >> There is no. You're right. There's no. Yeah, everyone reacts their own way, I guess. But I mean, did you expect that? >> No, of course not. Of, of course not. This was, I, I feel like you can see it in the hustle. Like, I hustled really, really hard to get as many people to know that this game was in development for the past six months. Like, really crazy, especially for the past couple months. >>

Um, because I felt the game was really good. I felt the game was my best game, but you can't control what other people think. And I could be wrong. Uh, who knows? I'd hope I wasn't wrong, but >>

It's one of all these play. Sorry to cut you off, but even when you've got all these play testers, >> and I'm guessing they're all saying this game's great. I'm guessing >> I mean, they, they're playing it. I don't think anybody was kissing my ass. Like, I don't, there wasn't a lot of that. I mean, we saw in the numbers, we saw that these people were just playing for hundreds of hours. Um, but it's not like they were pinging us and being like, "This is the greatest game I've ever played," etc., etc. Um, so we, you know, it, it's a weird situation. Like, even if we were confident in how great the game was, even with our testers and whatever else, that does not mean sales. Like, it doesn't, doesn't turn into sales. Um, there, I think there were a lot of factors that went into the million copies that were sold. Um, for sure, but absolutely not. Um, behind the scenes, we had hoped that we would sell. I think Rebirth sold between, I can't, I don't know the exact number, but I've heard, I've heard a few numbers, like 145, no one 45,000 copies in its first 24 hours, or I've also heard 60,000 copies in its first 24 hours. I have to look it up myself, but it's hard to dig around. >>

Yes. Um, so we were expecting to hopefully sell that, um, in the first, in the first 24 hours. I don't even remember. >> We had three. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't, I can't remember what the numbers are anymore. I don't, I don't remember. I think we hit 300,000. >> 300,000 or 500,000. I don't remember. >> Some large amount in the first day. Um, and no, it was absolutely not expected at all. And like, think both me and Tyler were just kind of like, "How do you process this?" Like, "How do you?" People would show us screenshots of like, record, record number of active players. And I think one of the most shocking ones was we were like, way ahead of Portal 2 >> per active. >> Yeah. So, Portal 2 at peak launch active players on Steam, we beat it by like 20,000 or something. Just like, that's crazy. Red Dead Redemption 2. >> What? >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. Wow. >> Yeah. No, that's what I'm talking about. >> Like >> you beat Hades 2 as well, didn't you? >> Yep. Yep. >> Damn. >> Yep. Had. Yeah. And that was that was one of the, the indie mega hits that for rogue likes was that was like the, the, the highest, um, the highest active users. Well, I think as you said, once you get your grips into this game, like once it gets its grip, you can't kind of let go. And that's where the player retention is coming from, 'cause I'm guessing it's still high, isn't it? It's still in the 100K area. >> Yep. We're averaging 100, 100 to 104, I think, every day. Um, it'll be interesting to see what the second week, um, brings and how, how high it ends up going. Um, it's just crazy to watch. I mean, we, we're still like in like the top two or three highest selling games after, you know, eight days after release. Uh, it's just, I've never, I've never had anything like this. >>

Sales are still >> the line is up, man. >> Yes. >> Like, Binding of Isaac was a slow burn. A lot of people don't realize that now. Um, when it came out, it did not do great. Um, it did fine, but it went up over time very slowly. Like, it's the bizarre thing with Binding of Isaac currently is selling better now than it was 10 years ago. >>

I actually just bought it on PC. I already had it on PlayStation. I already bought it on PlayStation, but I, yeah, I just bought it on PC. There you go. Yeah. >> Yeah. I, I wasn't aware, I wasn't aware until I, until Florian pointed it out when I, when I paid him. I, I, I pay him every year and, um, in December and he's like, "Oh, looks like every year I'm making more money." And I was like, "Huh?" And I thought, "I've done the math wrong. Like, this is, this, I've done it wrong. This is, how let's go look at this." And then I looked and, and I was like, "Wait, is it?" And I saw that it, like, last year was higher than the year before. And he's like, "Look at this." And he just showed me what, just what I paid him every year for the past six years. And it was going up by, you know, it's like 5% every year. >> Wow. That's >> that's crazy. But in the beginning, it was, you know, not that, not that crazy. Not, not a, a crazy windfall of, of, um >>

When did it hit a million >> purchases? >> Do you remember? >> Um, it's hard to count because so the original Flash version came out and I think that that one hit a million within a year. Um, so yeah, the Flash version hit a million within a year. I think the, I think Rebirth hit a million, uh, before, like six months, like quicker because it just kind of took a lot of the active users of the original and dumped them on top. Um, and I don't know, it's, I think it's like eight million or whatever on Steam at this point, but, um, more across other consoles. >>

Do you do the achievements and trophies? Because your games notoriously are hard platinums like on PlayStation, the platinum trophy. And >> Yeah, I do. Um, I do design those. >> So, you're to blame. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I mean, with Mugenics right now, the achievements are all just tied to the, the basics. We, we didn't do anything crazy. We'll probably add that in like when we do a DLC. Do some >> do anything crazy. There's 280 to get. >> They're just tied to they're just tied to story beats. >> 280. It's just 'cause there's, if there, if there are 14 classes multiplied by X amount of end caps, you've got a lot there and then you've got a bunch of side quests and main quests and, you know, story beats unlocks. >>

So, you're going to, so, you're saying you're going to make it even harder in the DLC? >> It's not hard now. >> It's not hard. >> It's not that hard. >> Oh god. >> It's not that hard. Um, but yes, I think more, more fun challenges that might reward the player with stuff like we talked about that a lot, but then we didn't have time to, uh, to implement them. >>

Super Meat Boy is notorious, one of the hardest PlayStation plats there is. Um, I think it gets, I feel like it gets easier over time as people obviously optimize everything, but it's still tough like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Not like a 0.1 or less than that have got it. Probably 0.001. Um, but you said that you hated your time on that game compared to this. Like, what are the differences? Why, what makes this one so special and fun compared to that one? Is it just the pressure? Is it the freedom? Is it the, what is it? >>

Well, with Super Meat Boy, I was basically all everything that I had worked for at that till that point in my career was on the line, including anything I had in savings. You know, I was going into debt and selling all my things. I had sold all my Legos, all my CDs, all my Nintendo cartridges. The whole collection was gone to pay rent. And at the end, I was borrowing money. So, there was a lot on the line for that. Um, and then it was just working with, um, working with Microsoft. Um, you know, our producer Kevin was really, really great, but he was honest with us and he would tell us stuff about what the other people, the other biz people were saying, and it wasn't good and no one had any faith in us and we were projected really low for sales. So, it was kind of a really grueling and depressing crunch and we crunched really unimaginably hard and long. I think for like the last month of development, I was writing off of like 4 hours of sleep every night. >>

What's, what's crunch look like then? Like, is that a 14-hour day type of thing? >> The whole day. >> Yeah. Wake up to sleep. >> Yes. Wake up to sleep for weeks. Um >> because we the game wasn't done and we had to, we had to get it done in order to get into this promotion called the Game Feast. >> And we were told that this is the only way our game is going to get any kind of promo. So >> we have to do it. And we killed ourselves to do it. And then they cut the promo midway through because it performed so badly. So, we didn't even get the promo >> in the end at all. But that whole experience was, it was awful. Uh, which is one of the reasons I don't work with, with, with people on console anymore because I just don't want to deal with that. >> Um, and, um, I don't want to put myself in that situation again. >>

But are you proud of the game in the end or? >> Of course. >> You're proud of it? >> Of course. >> Yeah. No, I'm very proud of it. Um, you know, in the end, it was worth it, but when you compare that to this, it's not comparable at all. This is like a very relaxed, very long, like, we could have crunched this into three years and killed ourselves to do it really fast and it would have been to the detriment of everyone around us as well as ourselves and the game. Um, but having the freedom financially to be able to just kick back, hire a bunch of people and, um, have fun and go nuts with the details, um, made the game better and, um, it was just a pleasing experience throughout. There was never even a bump. There was no issues there in six years. None. >>

You self-funded all yourself this one? >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Yeah. And so you, you could, it have gone seven or eight years? Like, is there >> It could have. Like, was there, "Okay, we have to have it out by '26" or you didn't mind? >> Yeah, our, our goal was to actually release it last October. Um, and everybody was worried that that Grand Theft Auto was going to come out >> and so we were paranoid about that >> and, uh, we thought we would crunch and just, and hit that point and that was back when we were like, "Okay, we won't do localization. We're just going to just release it and wrap it up and that's going to be it." And, uh, we did, we did kind of get, we could have, we could have made it >> but then when we were finally like, "Ah, well, what if, like, what if we're in, like, this crazy competition with, with the Grand Theft Auto and all these other games coming out like Silk Song and stuff like that?" >> Yeah. >> We don't want to put ourselves right next to that. >> Let's just push it back to the next year and just release when there's no one releasing games in February, early February. And that will give us, you know, three more months to localize, which is what the time was needed to localize the game in like four or five different languages. And, uh, we thought, "Okay, we'll do, we'll do that and then we'll just kind of kick back and like, not kill ourselves." And that was the best decision we've ever made because it was nice and easy. And I got to, instead of crunching, I got to focus on promo stuff, which I had a lot of fun doing. And, um, yeah, it was just kind of a laid-back. I, I did a bunch of podcasts. I did a bunch of interviews. And then for the last two weeks of development, I did, um >> daily live streams, a lot of let's plays, >> of course. Yes. Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. And contests for fans and a lot of fan interaction. Um, I think at one point we had upwards of like 10,000 people on the, on the live stream. It was pretty crazy. >>

And this all really helps just get the, the word out there and it all culminates >> launch, I guess. Who knows? A good game. At the end of the day, a good game will thrive. Um, no matter >>

I'm the type of person that usually pays, like, right now I'm being bombarded with, uh, a movie called Nirvana, The Band, The Movie, or something like that keeps popping up everywhere. And then I started, I started like, I've heard it enough that I'm like, "What is that?" And I like looked into it and I've seen some clips and they're really funny and now I want to see it. And my, my, my thought of that is very similar with Mugenics, is as long as someone's screaming the word over and over and over and over and over and over again, that it, it'll stick. And then when the game comes out, people are like, "Wasn't, didn't I, so and so was saying something about Mugenics? I'll check it out," or, or maybe they'll check out a video or whatever else. But who's to know what worked and what didn't? I, I have no idea. >>

Your works are always so introspective. Um, and your art is always filled with honesty. Um, why is that so important to you? >>

Um, because I believe that art is honest and, um, and people can feel it. I, I think that even though the majority of our society is into scamming people and lying, um, I believe people have an innate ability to sense when somebody is being truthful. >> And, um, I think it brings people in. It's just, I'm just trying to treat people the way that I want to be treated, which is with honesty and respect. So, I'm trying to do my best to, you know, speak from the heart and write from personal experiences and, and hope that there are enough people out there that can at least feel it. They don't need to know, but they can at least feel the honesty. I think the honesty can sometimes come through as, um, uniqueness or charm. Um, and I hear that a lot with the game, so I'm hoping that that's what they're talking about. But, uh, yeah, I put, I put a lot of myself in my work because what else do I know? You know, this is what I know the most. I know what I like and, uh, I can talk a lot about the things that I like and I know my hang-ups and I can write about those too. And, uh, that's it's what I can do. I'm not creative enough to write full fiction that I have not experienced. So I'm going to stick to the stuff that I know. >>

And how's the sort of the guilt as a parent? 'Cause I, I'm, I've got a one-year-old now and sometimes when you're in here, you, you kind of feel that guilt of, "I should be out there with him," you know, when you've got those long days. How have you dealt with that? Any tips? >>

No, I'm not good at it. Um, it's the worst part now is like, >> I remember thinking, >> "Well, this is all said and done, I'll be able to spend so much time with the kids." And then it was all said and done and I'm just still like this in this frozen state where I'm just, I've been living like this for so long and everything else is so unfamiliar that, um, hello. Speak of the devil. How funny. >>

Screen? >> I know. Everybody's. Well, >> what in the world? >> Yeah. Well, he, he has hair. He has hair, though. >> Not for long. Not much longer. >> It comes for everyone. Um, >> yeah. I'm trying to figure out what that, what, what that means. I, I, I desperately want to be a better father. And, um, now I'm like trying to remember what I was doing to be a father before and, um, trying to get back to living in the moment instead of planning ahead. You know, >>

You have one kid. >> Two. >> Two. How old? >> Mhm. >> Five and 10. >> Both in school. >> They're both homeschooled. >> They're both homeschooled as well. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. And your office is at home, I'm guessing, like me. >> Yes. >> Yes. So that's that's another tricky thing, man, because I'm like a couple of steps away from him at all times. >> You know what I mean? And there's that, you don't have that, "I'm going to work now, honey." >> Going to the office. You know what I mean? It's in the same house. I think that's >> Yeah. I, I remember trying to justify it and being like, "Well, I'm right here, so if they need me, I can stop and help." But then at times, sometimes I feel like it's more of like a tease, like that they know I'm right here. They know I'm just right here and I'm not spending time with them. I feel like if I left, it might be actually better or easier, but simply not an option. >>

So, you're still in that frozen state. What's the plan? Is there a plan? What do you think? Like, are you going to take it easy this year? >> Yeah, I mean, I, I feel like I was taking it easy already, but, um, I definitely, the agreement in order to continue to be with my wife in this marriage that we have. Our agreement is, I will work part-time. >> So, I will probably work five to six hours on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. That's it. And I will take off the other days completely so I can focus on homeschool stuff and doing family stuff together and taking little trips and stuff like that. >>

That sounds great, man. Um, so that's, that's my current goal. Right now, it's just a mess though, because I'm, I, I still feel like I need to see somebody beat the game on stream in order >> just come out. You got to give yourself a bit of time. >> Yeah, >> but, uh >> I think I think she won't mind with the sales and the, uh, the response. >> No, that doesn't do anything. And you should know that. >> No, it doesn't help. No, my wife has never, I met my wife ages ago when we were kids and, um, so she never had any kind of expectations when it came to, and she's not a person who cares about money and never has. She just wants my attention. That's it. Period. We could be poor as long as she has my attention and we're doing stuff together. That's all she wants. >> Yeah. >> And she could give a [ __ ] about the sales. Doesn't do anything for her. >> Unless, unless she can cash in and buy more time with me, and that's what she wants. She just wants time. >> So, no. Sadly, money doesn't fix much and, um, it's definitely not going to help my relationship. >>

Are you still going to therapy? Do you go to therapy together? >> Yeah. Uh, every Friday. >> Every Friday. >> Every Friday. For how long have you done that for? >> As long as we can pay for it, >> man. Yeah. >> Does it ever go? Do you ever feel like >> If you, if you miss a week, you feel it? You know what I mean? Like >> Sometimes. >> Some, sometimes. I mean, a lot of the, um, a lot of our issues are like outside ourselves and, um, stuff that's, you know, stuff we can't control. And, uh, that's usually the stuff that we end up talking about to try to figure out what we should do and what's going on and why. And a lot of kids stuff. But, um, I think it's good. But I mean, I think, I think therapy is very important. Um, especially to people like me and her who maybe struggle with knowing our feelings well enough to say what we're feeling and maybe need help kind of talking through what's going on in order to process our emotions, I guess. And, um, my kids are the same, so, um, they'll probably end up needing that as well. Do you, when it, of course, I worry that about being a failed father like, and, and I feel a tremendous sense of guilt trying to balance work and, um, home life stuff for sure. I mean, that's, that's always going to be, I think that's always going to be the challenge and, uh, has been since I, we had our first, um, because having our first was the, was the first time when I was like, "Oh [ __ ] this could end my career. I got to do stuff." Um, I think I'm better. I'd like to think I'm better that when it comes to balancing these things. I think I, I think I can get, I get more from from being a dad and doing that sort of stuff that I than I than I used to, or, or maybe my work doesn't give me as much or something. I don't know. But I'd like to think that I can balance it a little bit better now. We'll, we'll see how it goes kind of moving forward. But, uh, my goal is to not [ __ ] it up too bad for them. I know. I feel like just having success in and money now kind of already [ __ ] them up. >> 'Cause they got a very, man, I was going to say that that does [ __ ] them up sometimes. >> Yeah. Like, what, what, what am I supposed to do? Like, they live in this world that is so vastly different than the world I grew up in. And they have a lot of support even outside of just the financial. Um, >> Yeah. >> I'm sure that's going to cause some issues, you know, but >>

What, what, what made you decide homeschooling? >> It was the only option. When every school says, "Send your kid home," you, you, what else are you supposed to do? I'm not, if I was poor, I would be in a situation where I did not have the option, I did not have the option to homeschool our ch, our children because I would, you know, need to work and I would send them to school and then they would be ostracized, um, for who they are and they would be hated by the majority of teachers and they'd be treated poorly and they would grow up hating the world like I did. And I would like to spare them that. So, that is my goal. That is our goal. Um, 'cause my wife had the same, you know, she dropped out of high school, or she dropped out when she was in eighth grade. Um, and so did her mother and uncle and etc., etc. And the same goes for my family. We're just not meant to, we don't jive well in this, um, in >>

Why were they saying send them home? >> Well, I mean, with, with our oldest, it wasn't so much send her home. It was that she was leaving. Um, she, she will, she would refuse to do work and then, um, say she was feeling sick, you know, she would find a way to heat up the thermometer and go home sick. You know, she would just turn around and leave school after we dropped her off and they would call us, you know, she's, she's escaping. And they kept recommending, recommending homeschool or some sort of homeschool hybrid program. And it made me mad because it was like, "Jesus Christ, just [ __ ] well, let's figure this out together." And, and, and it was during, like, right when COVID kind of lifted and kids were going back to school, so it was pretty [ __ ] stupid. >>

Over here. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. >> And you've got this kid who's already like, a completely nervous, anxious mess, um, uh, who now, like, is required to like, swab her nose. Um, and that was back when they shoved it way back in there. Um, and get tested before she like goes into first grade and stuff like that. And I was like, [ __ ] [ __ ] this. Like, this is stupid. We tried >> we tried private school, um, and they were the ones. No, it was, it was everything is good for, um, for a month, and then her, her ADHD kicks in and she starts being incredibly impulsive and, um, constantly challenging everyone around her. Uh, and they, you know, we just constantly get called, "Pick up your kid. She's not listening. Pick up your kid. She's not listening." Or, "Your kid's running away from school. She's down the street. Come pick her up." And, uh, so I just, we just got really [ __ ] tired of that. And, uh, we ended up getting her, like, they recommended a full evaluation for her to get confirmed because if you get a full evaluation, then if your kids has disabilities, you could get funding in school and you could get an aid and you can get this, this, and this. >>

Did you or >> Yeah, we got that. And she has all the, she has all the stuff that me and my wife have. >> And, uh >> So, what does she got? ADHD? >> She's got ADHD. She's got everything. And there might be even more now, now that, now that I'm seeing some more stuff now, too. She's dyslexic like me. She has ADHD like me. She's on the spectrum like my wife. She has audio processing disorder like my wife. Um, she's has anxiety like me. She has OCD like me. She might have Tourette's syndrome. Um, she has ticks. Uh, >>

How bad's your OCD? 'Cause I've got a friend who's got very severe OCD. >> How have you dealt with your OCD like over the years? 'Cause it must be a different spectrum for you being online, unless you've got, what kind of OCD do you have? Is it cleanliness or is it like, no >> mental health? Like >> It's, it's, um, it's, it's, um, it's mental lock. >> Um >> Yeah, it's, um >> reviewing things. >> Yes. Um, yeah. Uh, when it's bad, um, it comes out as agoraphobia. I won't leave the house or I'll feel sick or whatever else. Just, I don't know. It's, it's, um, be, it's being stuck in a mental loop that I feel like I'm forced to think specific ways in order to feel okay. Um, I've been able to overcome >> most of that and I've gotten much better over the years. What, what tips would you give? Yeah. My number one tip is that I think the thing that changed the most for me was, um, learning how to, uh, do transcendental meditation. Um, that was, that was extremely helpful. I did that for a few years >> and I feel like it changed my brain chemistry. I feel like it >> alleviated a great deal of the loopingness of it just >> permanently. >> Um, I still will do it sometimes, especially when I'm stressed out, but my stress level of course is what affects things the most. Like, the more stressed out I get, the worse it gets. And I'm feeling so mentally healthy right now that it's hard for me to even remember how that feels. >>

That's great, man. Right. >> Um, but I'm still, I still don't travel. I've traveled like once since in the past 10 years and, uh, I would like to try to do that more. It's an obsessive, um, if I travel, I will obsess over the idea of not being able to sleep in an uncomfortable place. Um, and when I go there, I won't sleep. And sometimes I won't sleep for 48 hours plus and I will become insane. And that's usually my go-to. My, my, a lot, a lot of my stuff >> with you. You'd be right. >> No, but it's not, it's not, it's, it's like the place. I don't know. There's like >> the place. Okay. It's hard to explain, but like, like driving around in San Francisco and seeing stacked buildings and knowing that there are people living on top of each other in these buildings gives me tremendous anxiety. It's like this idea of like >> Yeah, I agree. Yeah. >> It's a weird, it's a weird feeling, but >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like, having to go somewhere else and then relax my body to the point of being able to go to sleep is extremely hard because my brain won't stop. It just keeps going and keeps telling me, "You're going to die. You're going to die," over and over and over and over again. And I will, you know, with, with sleep deprivation, it will get way worse and my OCD will get horrible and I will just like cave in on myself and I could start vomiting and like almost passing out and know like panic attacks get really, really >> really, really gnarly. And, um, I'm already getting like pinpricks all over me. >> Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I'm, I'm, um, that's still the idea of that is still, uh, difficult for me to, uh, deal with, but I will cross that bridge eventually and slowly and surely I will be able to because I want to be able to take my kids to like Disneyland and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> And I want to be able to sleep. But the last time it was a success, I, I, I mean, I think I think for the most part, the thing that's helped the most is having kids has made me deal with like sleep deprivation stuff more. Like, I've been able to just get four or five hours of sleep and not have panic attacks. So that's >>

You really had bad sleep for many years there. >> Oh yeah. Insomnia was always a problem. Really a huge problem with me since I was a young kid. >> Yeah. And so did it. Have you tried like having something? I'm sure you tried everything, but like >> I tried everything. >> Yeah, you've tried everything. There's nobody to say you've tried. >> I'm okay now. I, I, I, I really, like, I feel great. Um, and, um, I'm not planning on going backwards. So, uh >>

How was your mental health for this whole pro? Would you say? Is that a part of it? Success. Your mental health was strong. >> Sure. Yeah. No, it was great. I didn't have any, I didn't have any issues at all. Um >> Yeah. >> Not at all. >> Oh, that's awesome, man. And so as we wrap up here, how proud are you of this project? >>

Extremely proud. I'm, I'm extremely. I, I've never had a more proud moment, um, than when it came to this, this game's completion. >> That's awesome. >> Um, I think the majority of people involved in the project feel the same way, too. And I think it's really a collection of a bunch of different independent artists who did their best and did their best work. And I tried my best to pull everything together and showcase everything fully and give everybody their time to shine. And, yeah, I'm just working with a lot of really amazing people. And Tyler is a really amazing programmer and designer and, um, and friend. And it was, it was, um, very fun and I hope I continue to work on it. The scariest thing about releasing the game was, I, number one, I worried about Tyler because I know since Tyler's been working on this for so long, I know that if he stops, you know, he could drop because usually there's like this postpartum depression that comes with releasing a project that you've worked on for a really long time and I've had that in the past and it's gotten dark. My strategy is to never stop working on the project. If you never, if you never completely put it down, then it never feels like you've stopped and, um, you can just kind of let it peter out and it run its course. And I never felt, I never felt that drop with Isaac because it never really finished. >>

But even with that, like, even you'd get the depression even if you moved on to another project, 'cause wouldn't you move on to another project? >> You know? >> That's why I would. >> Yeah. In the past, if you ever see me juggling five things, it's because I'm fighting the devil. >> He will not get me. >> Yeah. >> It was like, you know, have you ever heard of the Winchester Mystery House? >> No. What is it? >> So, in California, um, there's this woman, um, uh, who inherit, she was, she was the wife of the Winchester rifle creator, right? >> Yeah. Uh, and she was told by a psychic that every person who was killed by a Winchester rifle was haunting her. >> And she inherited the, she inherited the fortune, the fortune of, of the Winchester rifle, whatever. And her strategy was, as long as she can continue to build onto her house, extra rooms for all these ghosts >> that they, that they would have a place to stay and they wouldn't be able to find her. >> So, she, so it started out just expanding all this [ __ ] in her house and then she started building like stairs to nowhere, doors that just open up on the third floor to just nothing, >> just chaos. So, it became this like booby trap house for ghosts. That sounds like the Knives Out house, you know, not the film Knives Out. Like >> I, It's, It's on my list of things I need to see. >> Oh, you got to watch it, man. Yeah, >> I know. I have it. I have I have the Blu-ray sitting on my TV and a big old stack of to-do. >>

You love it, man. The, so, if this, I think this might be the best or one of the best sprawling sort of tactical turn-based strategy games of all time. Let's say Mugenics is up there in the Mount Rushmore. Would you say Final Fantasy Tactics, um, next to it? What would be the other two you'd put there >> or your Mount Rushmore >> of tactical strategy games? >> Yeah, >> it's hard to say 'cause you, I would say Advanced Wars is is there. Advance, Advanced Wars. I think that's like a pinnacle. >> I would say XCOM. >> Um, Final Fantasy Tactics. >> Envy Genics. >> Um, Envuggenics. Is there only four of those heads? You, you guys over there know more than me. >> Yeah, that's, that's a good list. >> I think that's a great list. >> It was, it's very weird. I remember doing interviews and stuff and being like, telling Tyler, "Goddamn, Tyler, I want to say that this is the best one. I want to say I think this is the best [ __ ] tactical strategy game ever made." But you can't do that. You can't. Somebody else has to say it. Like, I can't claim that it is. >> Even though I believe it is. I've done my research. I've done my research. >> And we knew where the bar was and we wanted to go much further with when it comes to that and I, I, I'm >>

Yeah. No, again, back to the proud. I'm very proud. I've never been more proud of something and I feel like we not only made a tactical strategy game that I think could easily sit at the top, but a tactical strategy game that can be accessible for people who don't like tactical strategy games. >> 100%, man. 'Cause it's not what we really set out to do. >> I don't gravitate. I'm, I'm, I'm a horrible >> It's an, it's an alienating genre, much like the roguelike genre. The original roguelike genre has been around forever. But usually asy art and text-based stuff that that was required in order to make a game like that was so alienating that no one even played it. But that [ __ ] was around forever. Like, you can, you can trace roguelikes back into like the 80s >> and like >> being able to take these genres that seem to alienate a lot of people and then package that, repackage them in a way that makes them more accessible to a larger group, I think is really cool and special and I really enjoy, really enjoy being able to do that for sure. >>

Also, I don't think many have, I know you probably don't like the word charm, but the, the humor and the charm that that this game has. >> I like the word charm. You do. I think you probably just over, you've overheard it. But the, um, a lot of the, the games in this genre don't really have that sort of laugh-out moment. >> They're dry. You know what I mean? >> They're quite dry. Yeah. >> Yeah. They're very >> And people, I, that was in reviews. People said that too, that they feel like the people who would like a turn-based strategy game are not going to be into this humor or the, the theme of this game. And it's like, "Yeah, that's probably true." But I'm trying, I'm not trying to just get those people. You know what I mean? >>

That's the key. They might come anyway. >> I feel like we need more humor. Your humor in more games, man. Like, I feel a lot of games are very serious. >> We don't, We don't need my humor, but we do need >> I mean, like humor, humor in general in more games. I think everything's a bit serious sometimes. >> Yeah. It would be nice if people took things less seriously in general. We're, we're in this really stupidly serious time where no one can make a [ __ ] joke. >> I know, man. Um, I, I think that's changing. I'd like to think that's changing. >> No, I think it's changing. Yeah. >> So, it'll be fun to, you know, see things that are funny again and, uh, be able to laugh about things again. >>

The meow button in the menu. >> Is that your idea? >> No, that's Tyler's idea. Tyler did that. >> Yeah. No, he's surprised. He's like, "Check this out." And I'm like, "Oh my god." >> I think it was it replaced. So, what used to be there, it was a placeholder text because when we were testing that, the meow button used to say Discord link. So, there was a button that was just there. >> So, instead of him deleting it, he just rewrote it so it said meow and then just made it so it triggers meows when you >> if you click it. >>

Is Tyler going all right? Like, how's he? He's feeling good. He's he's happy. >> He has a cold right now. Um, I, I think he's feeling exactly how I felt when, you know, I made a bunch of money and I was poor and then suddenly I wasn't. I think I think he's just trying to deal with the reality of what this is and the weight. Um, and this because it's really heavy and it's life-changing and I think he's just kind of frozen and, um, he's just got to figure it out. You know, you got every, you got to let, you got to acclimate to this new environment because it is a very different environment than, um >>

Do you have a wife and kids or anything? >> No, but that's probably some of that pressure is on that too. I remember he told me, you know, like, "I'll, I'll get on that once, once I've established myself because, you know, I need to, I want to be able to have a some something to be to present, you know?" >> I, I, you know, like, you know, like those birds that build, Yeah, build a perfect nest before the, uh >> before the, before the girl bird comes and checks you out. I think Tyler was just kind of like, you know, "I need, I need security. I need a house and I don't have those things." Like >> and now he has those things and I think he's looking at the future and maybe that's a little overwhelming as it is. >>

Yeah. And I don't think the train stopping, man. I feel like this game's just going to keep ticking on all year and it'll be in the game of the year. It's my game of the year. I'm a huge Resident Evil guy. That comes out next week. So, you might have some stiff competition there, but for me, but, but man, I'm telling you, this is in my, this is a brilliant game and I want to say thank you for making it, man. It's a real pleasure to just sit down with you. >> Thank you for playing it. >>

No, my absolute pleasure. And man, what do I do to have to get a meow in this game for the DLC? >> Well, not much since you have a strong Australian accent. I don't think we have many Australian cats. You need an Australian meow. >> Yeah, it's true. I'll hit you up. I'll hit you up for the DLC. Um, we've already been starting to talk. I, I got hit up by a few different people that one of which that I said was in the game because I thought they were in the game. I was positive of it and it turns out I never even asked them and they were like super offended by it. I felt bad. I was like, "Well, just send me your meow and we'll [ __ ] we'll put it in." >>

Yeah, man. I'd love to. It'd be an honor. Um >> Yeah. No, just, um, ping me in three months and we'll figure it out. Everyone buy Mugenics, brother. It's a pleasure to chat with you. Let's do this again if we can. And get a Mugenics pinball machine, would you? I'll buy one. >> I, I'm working on it. Thank you, brother. Take care.