The Psychology Of Connecting To Your Authentic Self w/ Dr Thema Bryant

Welcome. I'm Kevin Miller. This is a podcast for your personal evolution. In this episode, the psychology of connecting to your authentic self.

Well, who is the authentic you? Some people feel like they remember being an authentic self at some point. And I feel that a lot of people never experience that. But I feel we all along just want to be comfortable being us. Well, what does that look like? How does it feel?

Well, following is a conversation I had with Dr. Tamma Bryant. Uh TMA is a clinical psychologist, a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. She's an ordained minister in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. She earned her doctorate in uh from Duke University and completed her post-doal training at Harvard Medical School. In the world of academia and psychology, she is royalty. I mean, when we recorded this conversation, she was also president elect of the American Psychological Association, and she is now president. Other top psychologists look to her for guidance. TMA has half a million people following her on Instagram because she is so much her authentic self. You'll find her dancing and see her efforts in play to decolonize she says traditional psychology and meld science spirituality and faith and just our very humanity. Ta has a book called homecoming healing trauma to reclaim your authentic self. And here we take I feel a very base look at the real world issues and hope for today's mental health desires that we all have.

You can find Dr. Dr. Tamma Bryant's book, Homecoming, Anywhere and Everywhere. And connect with her at dr for Dr. Dtam Ha.com. And as you hear this, if you have questions, if you have ideas, thoughts, just let me know. KM miller kevinmiller.co is my email. I'd be honored to connect with you.

Coming up next, Dr. Entertainment Bryant and a discussion about what it looks like to find, discover, embrace our authentic selves. Let's evolve ourselves today.

Tam, it was an honor to have the chance to have you on here to begin with, but I initially when I got the book, I got into the topic. I was already interested. It was after that that I realized you had just been elected as president of the American Psychological Association. So uh I got to first just say congratulations. That's incredible.

>> Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited, grateful, appreciative, and I uh fortunately get this year as president elect to kind of behind the scenes get all my ducks in a row and then 2023 I'll be the president.

>> Okay, beautiful. Well, I'm uh I appreciate that. I've got a good amount of friends who are members of the APA, so now I can claim some bragging rights. So, thank you for that.

>> That's right. Okay.

>> Good. You're I want to start off, TMA, with I mean the title of your book and podcast is homecoming.

>> And that drew me uh resonated with me of the homecoming of in that essence of coming back to yourself. And you say in there reclaiming your whole authentic self. Obviously, a lot of people, probably a majority, are going to resonate with that. However, and you do speak to it through the book. I I I I had the thought and then I saw that you did speak to it, but I want you to start off here to the people who don't resonate with coming back because it's something that they never experienced to begin with. Help us help us there.

>> Absolutely. So stress and trauma disconnect us from ourselves and some people have had very early experiences of stress and trauma. So you may have never felt like you had the safety to explore, to develop, to express your authentic self. So I say the journey home can be a return or it can be a journey for the first time. And so it is possible to connect with yourself even if you are a survivor of early disconnection.

>> You use that word again right in your tagline there. You're reclaiming your whole authentic self. That word authentic has been a buzzword in the culture for a while now. Obviously came to the surface. It's still there. It feels like we are crying for people seem to be crying for authenticity. They want that from their leaders, from their influencers, from their culture, from their government, yada yada. And yet what I experience, you know, I'm in the self-help industry and what you speak to also here is we do that. We want that and yet we are so often, as you said, disconnected from who we are authentically to begin with. That seems like a pretty I mean there there's a there's a crux of our issue.

>> Yes. Right. It's so important. We are longing for it from other people and actually longing for it for ourselves. So that's why transparency can be contagious, right? When we get in the presence of people who are real, it can free us up to have permission to be more real. And when we are inauthentic to give ourselves grace and compassion because that's largely fear-based, you know, when I am dominated by fear of will people accept me, will they choose me? Will they approve of me? Uh what will happen to me if I'm out of the box, if I color outside of the lines? And so we get messages very early to conform. We get messages very early to censor ourselves, to dress like everybody else, talk like everybody else, post like everybody else. And so uh it is a wonderful act of liberation to take the risk of being real.

>> So let's dig in there because I'll admit I >> I feel a tension with myself with others in that aspect of you said the words transparency. You said the word being real. We're talking about being authentic. So I also feel often a cry from people of kind of that aspect of can I just be loved for who I am? Right?

>> And yet and I'll just throw this at you. I I get that. So there's can I just be loved for who I am? Yes. However, you're being a jerk uh right now as well. So there's that aspect of gosh we know this in the business world and in sales that you there is some performance there is some modification of just my you know it's not fair to say but you know Tourett syndrome try man if I said everything that came into my mind that would not serve anyone well. So, where's the tension, the balance between that being real, being transparent, and yet uh some PR skills? Is that fair?

>> Yes. Thank you. Absolutely. It's a great question. So, I would say when we're being a jerk, that is actually not our authentic self.

>> Okay.

>> But it gets it gets publicized as that. Like people say, "I'm just being real." But they're really being cruel, right? They're actually being mean-spirited. And so what I would say as opposed to needing to contort yourself is to actually heal. And this goes back to your first question of if I have been taught to be like that my whole life. I can actually believe that is the real me versus that is my wound that is leading me right to go through life cruel and harsh in that way.

>> Okay. So you answered it if I can paraphrase then my authentic self and I'll own this for me. My authentic self is not the coming forth with my damage with my wound is what you said. My authentic self is whole and in that it should be well I shouldn't say it should be okay because it may not be. I guess that's part of it too and and I will own that part. My I'm I'm in I don't like conflict.

>> I do want people to like me un to an healthy standpoint. And I have to balance that. I have to I have to work on that. And I don't want to offend anyone. I don't want to rub anyone wrong. And yet, I understand from a psychological standpoint, if I'm whole and healthy, I I will. And I need to be okay with that. Also, that's hard for a lot of us people pleasers to hold.

>> Yes, it is. And what I say to that, so a couple of things. One, I appreciated what you said about like if I say everything that pops in my head, that can get me in trouble. And so it is important to have what I call in the book your inner court and your outer court.

>> So there are people who are just my acquaintances. And so when they say how are you I may give them a piece of it like I may say I'm tired or you know I give them one answer and I give a deeper answer to my inner court but the answer I give to the outer court is not a lie. It's just uh you are there's less intimacy there. So I do want to uh remind people to have permission that to live truthfully doesn't mean everyone gets free access to you right so to live truthfully I also honor what is the nature of this relationship so if I work in sales and someone comes in you know if they do like the nicity they're really just there to shop they're not there like this isn't therapy right so I I read the room

>> uh but then I do want to say the part about the people pleasing I I think uh many of us struggle with it and and many people who are in the the work of trying to make things better for others, trying to make people feel comfort, trying to empower and heal. Uh but in terms of wanting a authenticity, we also want real relationships. So if I am faking it with everyone, then I actually don't have any friends because they don't really know me. So they like the person who agrees with them on everything. They like the person who has no needs, right? They like the person who never has a complaint. But that is not actually a relationship.

>> So to have real intimacy means I have to risk showing up. Now, here's the thing. I'm not going to be for everybody.

>> So it's better that we know that sooner. You know, it's like when people go out on the first date and they're pretending or performing because they want to be chosen, but like you can't keep that up. It's unsustainable. So it's like get to know the actual person, let them get to know you and then you all can find out is it a match.

>> You speak of course in the book

>> to emotional intelligence.

>> And you just talked right now about real intimacy and I will use myself as a guinea pig here. I know some other people can relate. I believe that I was very open. I'm an open book. I'm not a private person. And in that, I was authentic. And it has taken and is taking a long time for me to realize that I am not emotionally intimate. So I am not being that fully intimate friend with my wife, with my other friends. I don't share how I feel. I don't want to offend. And it took a it took burnout. Honestly, it took burnout from my performance to bring me to that point. And t it was it was literal just unawareness. I did not I didn't know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's I I appreciate your your honesty in that because I think a lot of times we don't know. It can look like openness. For example, people who are talkative then they can say, "Oh, you know, I'm emotionally intelligent, but it's like you can talk a lot and say nothing." Or I've had clients who will say, "I have real intimacy. People always tell me their problems." And I say, repeat what you just said. I have real intimacy. People always tell you their problems. Do you ever tell them your problems and then they go into, well, I don't want to be a burden. I know everybody else is already stressed. So then you don't give people the opportunity to show up for you, right?

>> And so a piece of it, one thing we we named was people pleasing. Another one is when we have that script of being the strong one,

>> right? I'm the strong one in my family, the strong one on my job, the strong one in this community. And there could be some ego in that of like I call it the if it wasn't for me and if it wasn't for me this thing would fall apart right if it wasn't for me and we can get really on that right

>> yeah a god complex is is what I refer

>> yes that's right but then as you said burnout it's carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders it just uh doesn't work in the long run and it doesn't honor our humanity and the thing is then when we end up in a bind we can get resentful of how come no one's there for us in the way that we showed up for everyone else and we never taught them how like people are startled by our humanity if we always only show up when we have it together.

>> Well, you've been listening to my inner court apparently uh to catch that. And you spoke speaking of that, the inner court and the outer court and you talked about that that not everyone are you going to be you're going to be your authentic self, but you're not going to open yourself up to

>> everyone. And then even in this topic that we just covered,

>> I hear you speaking to boundaries, which we got to give a call out to. I saw I found out was a friend of yours is Nedra Towab Glover who we had on the show.

>> She's been on in the past six months. What a gift. Um

>> Oh my gosh. Love her. And her book and workbook. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And I actually need to touch base with her again and give her a little more credit because I got uh I got prescribed my own need to dig more into boundaries, my lack thereof. And I'm using her book. She doesn't even know it. So, I need to connect with her. But I but I hear you speaking to that. That's part of this authentic self is some boundaries which as you know is so uncomfortable especially to

>> right

>> and and you you kind of alluded to this the type of person who's listening to this show is by proxy an aspiring person is what I refer to them they are somebody who wants to make a difference they want to serve others in

>> by proxy then

>> they are going to tend towards those the issues we're talking about of I don't want to offend I don't

>> right

>> and and then there's the tension again

>> right Yeah, it's when I say yes to every request, then I am saying no to myself. I'm saying no to my mental health. I'm saying no to my physical health. I'm saying no to my dreams. And so it costs you to erase yourself, but other people will like it. People like someone who always gives them a yes. And uh if you say like, "Do you need anything?" No, no, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm just here for you. Right? So we can get rewarded for self-eraser but what a painful existence to realize you miss yourself to realize you have spent your life on the back burner and so to say that just as I believe other people are deserving of care time and attention can I heal to the point where I believe that is also true for me

>> yeah and what I've realized again using myself that's the benefit of being the host here I get free council. So, thank you for that. Or or invoice me later. Either way.

>> And uh you know the lack of boundaries

>> Yeah.

>> does not I have let it erode my peace. And it's interesting when I sit with you for a brief time. Uh I was with Nedra and right away I look and I go I I see peace. I see a quick smile. I see a peaceful demeanor. And to see that that came from authenticity,

>> from the wholeness, and and from boundaries. It's just not how we tend to paint it because we think that, oh, that's going to be a hard edge. That's going to be a that's going to be a a wall that they have to put up and push people away. And it's what your testimony is. It's not

>> right. It is, you know, to think of it as protecting your peace, protecting your health, uhing your dreams and visions. And other piece is even if a lot of the things are things you're actually interested in, time and energy are limited. So then I will end up doing half as good on a million things, then I could actually come through with excellence if I would have said no to some things.

>> Yeah, that's huge. And uh yeah, constant I see that I we have a lot of entrepreneurs of course in the audience. It's such a dangerous place to be because we are going to wear every hat. We're going to do everything. We're going to fix everything. It does feel like it's on us and we do and I see that and I'm taken away from my as my oldest son would say my area of brilliance or genius. I don't have time because I'm over here taking care of this and admining this and whatever and doing things that I'm not even competent in. And it robs myself of the fulfillment of and and others of the fulfillment of my I'll say my art. How's that?

>> Right. It's true. It's true. It's a great example as you were talking. You know the example that came to mind for me in Los Angeles. I was doing this women's group once a month and I would come in. I was doing the teaching, the facilitating and I was also bringing all the refreshments and I also had to bring my kids and so was and I was driving the furthest distance. It was just ridiculous. And so finally I got frustrated with it and I said, you know, starting next month we're not going to have refreshments. Well, what ended up happening were the women stepped up and started bringing like these big full meals even more than what I was doing.

>> Beautiful.

>> So it's like step back and give other people the opportunity to step forward instead of having to be a oneman show or one woman show.

>> Beautiful. Yeah.

>> You have, again, I'm going to keep referencing the book here, Overcoming Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole Authentic Self. Um, I want to talk about trauma. It continues to be a word I'm seeing over and over. Obviously, more and more people are resonating with it, but I want you to unpack your perspective as TMA, as president of the APA as well on that because I know myself and and many others have taken that word trauma and not resonated with it because we haven't had some specific tragic event. I mean, you are a uh you've dealt with sex violence in your own life. some things that we would look at, okay, that's that's that's an obvious trauma. That's a big ticket trauma. That's a, you know, it's a black and white. We got that one.

>> And yet so many other people are suffering from an aspect of trauma that they don't realize because they have >> minimize that. So, but I want to hear you unpack how you would label trauma and who has and has not dealt with it.

>> Yeah, great question. So, there's stress and then there's traumatic stress. So we all face stress and stress you know are we have these multiple roles and obligations that we're juggling and even though it can be stressful we figure out a way to navigate it right then traumatic stress are those experiences that overwhelm our usual capacity to cope

>> right and they disrupt our nervous system they can create a sense of uh intense fear like terror uh hopelessness powerlessness and it can u disrupt your sense of who you are, your sense of who other people are. It can make it difficult for you to regulate your emotions and make it difficult for you to trust. And so, you know, a big trauma that we have all been exposed to is COVID,

>> right? So a pandemic is a trauma and you know people want to go on like business as usual but it's like you know when we were in that period when they were scrolling the death count on the side of the screen on the news right I think a lot of people checked out or wanted to believe it can't be real cuz it just felt like too much to contain like that amount of mass death globally and in the US. Uh so that you know a pandemic is a trauma

>> right?

>> Yeah.

>> Talk about it in reference to a I tend I I'm coming to be more enamored with spectrums that it's not that you have type 2 diabetes or not. In essence we're all on the spectrum and whether or not obviously again if you have that big ticket trauma, that's an obvious one, but back to the little ones that you talked about, talk about how they can grow into if they're not dealt with, even that small one can grow into that big one. and manifest and catch us unaware.

>> Sure. So, it's important to know you can be exposed to a trauma and not develop uh post-traumatic stress disorder or not go into a major depression or not develop panic attacks. Uh but some people do. It's like with grief. Uh some people kind of go through their mourning process and then some people get stuck in the grief, right? So exposure doesn't guarantee a particular uh outcome but we want to become aware of ourselves because sometimes what has happened is we haven't connected the dots. So we have actually been affected but we don't uh realize that it goes back to that earlier experience or that prior experience. Um and so you know on the spectrum of of paying attention within yourself of how it might affect you of course uh a major one is major depression. And it's important to know that depression is more than sadness, right? It is more severe than sadness. If you've been sad for a day or two and by day four you're better, right? You have not experienced depression. So sometimes what happens is people who have experienced sadness try to give advice to people who have clinical depression and it's very insensitive cuz you don't know what it's like to not be able to get out of the bed or to not be able to function. And so then people will say things like you just need to look on the bright side. You just need to be grateful. you just you know and what I did was I just hike every day and when I hike every day you know so I say whenever you're giving feedback to someone that starts with just it means you you don't really understand like the weight it um I want to also say along with uh depression that it can show up with major anxiety with panic attacks uh and I want to also name anger I think in this selfhelp space um people try to um advise everyone to be detached and have no feelings as if that is like the ideal human state. And what I like to say is it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things,

>> right? If outrageous things are happening around you or to you or to your family or community and you're just like, "Zen, I feel nothing." Like to me, that's not that's not healthy. So it just becomes the things that I am outraged about, things I am upset about. What do I do with that? Right? How do I channel that? Try to make things better or to confront what is wrong. Um as opposed to thinking that to be healthy is to be checked out because that's actually a trauma response. what we call dissociation. When people are disconnected and and as children who've experienced for example molestation or child abuse or there was domestic violence in the home when they couldn't physically leave, you know, they would emotionally check out as a way of coping.

>> And so some adults are still doing that. They're physically present but emotionally absent.

>> You spoke to well well in that aspect of somebody who hasn't really understood depression and they speak to it and hey just look on the bright side you speak to and I pulled it out of the book

>> toxic positivity and that jumped out because this is you know again we're self-help that is a we're going to error on that side of yeah look on the bright side and make lemonade out of lemons and obviously we're not going to discount that that's huge because on the other side well I recently had Dan Pink on the show and his new book is the power of regrets and that again called to me right away. I wanted to do that as soon as I saw the book because I am not a no regrets person but he said that's how we tend to be. We're either going to reject it no regrets or the dangers on the other side and we wallow in them. So in that regards again you talk you speak to fear right in the tagline of the book. Um, maybe hit on that too because we have so much content in this space about not letting fear, you know, kind of the no fear type thing, which we know if you have no fear, you're psychopathic, basically. Um, but most people are struggling with being incapacitated by that. So, where is that with

>> I I'm grateful that I'm fearful of certain heights. I should be because if I fall, I'm going to die. So, that's a good that's not a wrong fear. I don't want to be a no fear in regards to that. But we obviously on a mental aspect have so many people who are incapacitated by fear. So again, I guess we're just talking a spectrum,

>> right? Yeah. So that piece with the the toxic positivity is uh it is unhealthy to deny people the space, safety, and opportunity for a full spectrum of emotions. Right? So if I can only tell people how great things are, that is going to really limit the relationship, right? Then I know like I can't say anything else to you. And and you have friends who are like that or people who are like that. I don't know how much we want to call them friends, but people who are like, you know, don't speak that, don't say that. Like it, you know, uh don't want people to speak truth. And so they'll say it's people who say if you speak it that makes it true. No, even when it's a secret, it's still true. It's still happening. Uh and so it is our own lack of emotional capacity to sit with people who are suffering. So to make us feel better, we want them to paint a happy face on it. We want them to, you know, smile and um you know, present only the good where some people are are in pain. And you know, a lot of times when I do interviews, people are quick to say, "Can you talk to people about getting rid of a victim mindset?" Like they're so quick to want people to like uh not think about their victimization. And I say, "We can talk about healing to that, but can we first deal with the grief of having been harmed?"

>> Yeah.

>> And that, you know, I think people have a discomfort with that.

Recording stop.

>> You a primary premise of yours is decolonizing psychology. I had not heard that term. I had to go read uh what that meant to and you say it's making space for the diverse pathways people take towards addressing trauma that fall outside clinical psychology. And obviously you have a significant focus on spirituality, let's say. And I actually want to ask you, I want to start, let's dig in right there with all the red flags that they that may raise for some people because they're going to hear spirituality, which we talk about a lot on the show, but a lot of people are going to cash that in. Okay. You mean like a faith-based aspect and religion? Let's literally start right there because you're speaking because it's also from your >> position as president of the APA. That's a somewhat >> I don't know if it's too far to say volatile topic. It's definitely controversial.

>> So,

>> so yeah, great. It's important to talk about. So, there is actually a division of the American Psychological Association that's focused on the integration of faith, spirituality, and religiosity. Okay? So, it's important to know that on average, mental health professionals endorse a lower rate of spirituality and religiosity than the general public.

>> So then what happens when you have people creating models for healing that don't acknowledge the way a large portion of the population sees the world?

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And people of color and women endorse higher rates of both spirituality and religiosity. So who is not served when we create models and spaces where it's not okay for them to talk about the way in which they understand the world. So it really is a way of saying mental health professionals need to also be culturally attuned. So culture is not only race and ethnicity, it's gender, its sexuality, its religion, its disability, its migration status. And so uh people who have uh a a immediate negative whenever they hear uh religiosity or to hear religion, what I would say is that especially if you're going to be a care provider is you need to be able to hold both ends of the spectrum. So the reality is there are people for whom the ways in which they have survived has been based in their faith and then there are people who have been harmed by faith.

>> And what we have largely are people who are only willing to acknowledge one or the other. So there are those who just see it as something harmful and are very disrespectful. the people who hold faith beliefs and then there are those who hold faith beliefs who aren't willing to acknowledge that there are those who have been harmed in those spaces right so it actually shouldn't be as controversial as it is psychology actually comes from the Greek word psyche which means the soul

>> it is the study of the soul and uh it is not uh impossible to hold both pieces that people can have a faith life and still want to work through their cognitions or learn new behaviors. Um and so the divide I have seen promoted on on both sides. So for example, I had a client who came and saw me and she was in seminary studying to do ministry and she literally had a therapist say to her, "Oh my goodness, you seem so smart. Don't tell me you believe that stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, this is her life's work. Yeah.

>> Right. So, then of course she dropped out of therapy because like you don't get me. Or I had a a supervisor once who was speaking in a very dismissive way of the client he was working with was a black woman and she was needing to make a decision about her son and she told the therapist, "I'm going to pray on it. I'll let you know next week." and he came in the clinic meeting and thought was like laughing at this woman ridiculing her like that was the most ridiculous thing he heard that she needed to pray on it this week. So when people have those kinds of attitudes it's not going to be safe for people to come in and get the care they deserve.

>> Then on the other end of the spectrum you'll have people in faith communities who will say all you need to do is meditate and pray.

>> All you need to do is do the the yoga. All you need to do is light your candles and so why are you wasting your time going to therapy? So I'm glad to be a part of u people who are serving as a bridge because people should not be put in a position where they feel they have to choose their faith or their mental health.

>> I I hear you addressing it professionally and culturally and saying hey this is something that exists that if we ignore we are missing the person. Now come over on the personal side as as as me someone in the audience of I am I'm not a psychologist. I'm I'm someone who is going to get help from a provider. What am I missing?

>> And I know that this is a subjective question,

>> but what am I missing? What do you see? What do you see culturally missing when we as the culture who is getting help and needing to address things when we don't include our own

>> some aspect of spirituality and faith?

>> Yes, it is um not holistic. So that's when we talk about your whole authentic self is I say you know what are the parts of you that have received the most attention and what are the parts that have been neglected right and so there are those of us who have focused a lot on our physical health so you know we're in the gym we're doing all of that um there are those who are spending a lot of time uh feeding their minds but then to say what are the things you do to feed your spirit so Howard Thurman was an African-American theologian Jen and he has this beautiful quote where he says uh do the things that make you come alive

>> because there are far too few of us who are actually alive.

>> Yeah.

>> And so you know what waters your what waters your garden? What feeds your spirit? What makes you come alive? Um that's you know the soul work.

>> So in looking at I want to I want to address another aspect with you that has come up continually too. Now I am a uh you know person of faith. Uh I believe in in God and I actually uh claim that Jesus guy uh personally. Um, but regardless of that, I have been reading more and more on a psychological standpoint, on a medic on a on a medical standpoint about I'm enamored with placebo, honestly, and the aspect of, you know, do placeos work? And I I think proof is that absolutely they do. and whether that pill, if we want to put it there, actually has an ingredient in it that changes the chemistry of my body and act and and helps me or I just think it should or would or could and it does, who cares? And so some of the aspect of trying to proving of this faith-based and the spirituality aspect again I feel like has to come into play of man if the person believes in it that in and of itself is prone to help them.

>> Yes. Yeah, it's been documented with the research, you know, when we look at uh recovery um in the aftermath of like major medical um interventions. Uh people who and you know, it makes sense, right? People who endorse a greater sense of faith have like uh a smoother recovery.

>> Yeah. Interestingly, when you talk about is it placebo, they actually, this is from the Duke University, Duke Medical Center um center on faith and health, they actually found in a study that people who were being prayed for and didn't know they were being prayed for actually did better.

>> Yeah. Wow.

>> Right. So uh it it is important and one of the things that people have talked about with prayer and with meditation actually is it's not just about like getting what you want but the the process of engaging in the practice actually changes you.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So it's not like oh just if I meditate or if I pray I'm going to get everything I desire. But the process u of engaging in that way is actually transformative.

>> I like that so much. It's the the the sum is greater than the parts in essence. And I've learned that from a couple

>> great people who showcase those things kind of those habits which we'll do uh we'll talk about here in a little while. But that the aspect of me doing habits that I don't need to do that are good and beneficial for me, the engagement with that, the the discipline of doing that

>> serves me as much or more in and of itself than the habit itself. And that's just not common thought.

>> Yes. Yeah. People are often thinking about it as like uh the magic pill to to get what I want. And sometimes we want things that aren't good for us.

>> Yeah. You're you coming back to some of the, you know, the spectrums and the trauma and the fear. You talk a lot about, you mentioned it here, stress and even the word disappointment. And it again it just jumped out to me in regards to do we take those things and not give them enough gravity again especially in this demographic right here where we're going to take those things go come on buck up let's just go forward be positive and all that and especially when we've got a culture who is falling so much more and more and more to literal depression despair apathy numbness and we go I don't want to do that so we're going to let's get disappointment Hey, look on the bright side. Buck up. And again, we're we're polarized there. And so, we don't want to fall to it, be overwhelmed by it. But what's the concern of if we don't give that because I do like that word disappointment. There have been some disappointments in my life I didn't give gravity to. And again, I'll own this

>> and they just grew and they grew. And then here I am years later getting therapy and realizing man I am suffering anxiety or or a loss or grief or whatever from what wasn't it it should I I again this is me think it shouldn't be that big but it obviously was that was a disappointment that stuck. I did not I didn't deal with it. I didn't recover from it.

>> How would you say that?

>> Yeah. Yeah. so important uh to know the things that we stuff and suppress bleed out in other ways.

>> So you may say, "I don't want to think about it. I don't want to talk about it." But it sure is affecting the way that you partner. It's affecting the way that you parent. It's showing up in your irritability, but in your mind, you're like, "I'm over it, right? I don't I don't care." That's, you know, the teenage response. I don't care. I don't care. And we say,

>> "Oh, I shouldn't care. I'm just thinking, I shouldn't care about that. Come on."

>> Right. Yeah. And yet and yet the truth is I do.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So giving myself the space for that so that I can acknowledge it so I can heal it so I can learn from it. I say pull the wisdom out of the wound. Right. What what do I what do I know now that I didn't know before?

>> What do I know? Well, I was most I dug in most in your book DMA into disconnect. Um, and disconnecting primarily from emotions and that feeling of, you know, emotions are dangerous. They're unproductive, especially to my Yeah, I just want to go. Here's where I am. There's where I want to go. I don't care what happened behind me. I don't care what I'm feeling. I just need to go there. And we've got that perspective that that's just unproductive. It's inefficient. And obviously, that's not tenable either. That's not sustainable either. the back to what you just said, the stuffing of those. And if I do that, I become disconnected. And again, I I'm I'm working through that, striving for growth in that now to become reconnected. And it's honestly, it's disorienting.

>> Something's been stuffed. It's been ignored. Now, to try to bring that back and do it with some health, though, it it's

>> I don't know a better word than that, disorienting. And nobody wants to be disoriented,

>> right? I thank you for naming that cuz I think we often don't talk about that aspect of like say the growing pains. It's going to feel awkward to do it differently. You know, if I'm used to not having real conversation, then real conversation is going to feel awkward. If I'm used to um presenting in a different a certain way to actually let other aspects of myself show up, it's going to it might even feel fake. You know, I was doing a a session with a mother and her adult child, and the adult child wanted more uh verbal affection in their relationship. And so when I asked the mother, you know, what would it be like to tell your daughter that you love her? And her immediate response was, "That would feel fake." And I said, "Well, it's only fake if it's not true. Do you not love her?" Right? Well, you know, no, I do. I do. But just had not grown up with people saying it. Was it It felt like those are like people on TV who are like, you know, to her, I love you, daughter. Right. But it's like to to work through the discomfort to make it your new normal. And that will only come by doing it.

>> Yeah. I it feels elementary to even ask this but maybe I'll go to the common sense is so often not common

>> and we know this. We know that it is you mentioned anger a minute ago. So let's talk about that that it is not a sin. I'll bring up my

>> my Bible belt upbringing. It's not a sin to feel angry what we would say. Yeah.

>> it is to walk forward in that to express that and affect you know other people but again we seem to generally just polarize and that's what I did. I'm not I'm not no I'm I'm bigger than that. I'm not even going to get angry or I'm definitely not going to express that. I'm not going to share that. I'm going to stuff that. Ignore that. And it feels like we still are struggling to understand how to healthfully feel something, how to sit with it, as my therapist is wanting me to do, to sit with it, and yet one, not let it incapacitate me, and be sensitive to how the expression of that can negatively affect those around us. And so I find, you know, myself, and I definitely hear it from others, not understanding, I I just don't know what that looks like. And so we can tend we tend to fall again on the other side both either side of the spectrum and not come into the middle.

>> Yeah. So uh to feel it see what h I think the reason we fear feeling it is from ourselves or from other people we have only seen it associated with like violence right so I don't want to I I'm afraid to feel cuz I might explode

>> and harm somebody else. Yeah. Sure.

>> Right. So now because I now have that fear and that script in my mind, I don't allow myself to feel any of it, which actually increases the likelihood of a later explosion,

>> right? Cuz I've just been pushing, pushing, pushing. So now when somebody does something that's like at a level three offense, we explode with 10 cuz we've been holding it for months or for years, right? As opposed to giving myself permission to share when it comes up. you know, I didn't like when you said that or I was uncomfortable with the way you spoke with me or whatever that is to learn I can uh express my upset without it being uh a bad person. Here's the thing. To have sustainable relationships requires difficult conversations. But if I avoid all difficult conversations, we're going to grow apart or it's gonna or someone someone will be clueless that there is somebody in here who's really unhappy and the other worst person doesn't know it, right? Cuz I've made it my point to like not express that and yet you're miserable and your friend or partner doesn't know.

>> Well, unfortunately or or maybe fortunately in my awareness, you've just described a primary aspect of my own journey in that and I want to I want to go back to you saying that that if we don't deal with that anger, it is more likely to come out in a an even bigger outburst at some other time. But speak to some of the other uh manifestations uh possible of that because I'm going to guess and again in my own journey that we can also maybe it won't come out into an explosion but it's going to manifest somewhere and it could be my first thought was numbness and bitterness.

>> Yep. Bitterness, resentment. Sometimes it turns inward in depression. So instead of getting mad at them, I'm mad at myself.

>> Okay.

>> Right. So people keep mistreating me and they can't be wrong. It must be something about me,

>> right? So now I have shame and guilt and humiliation about why do what is it about me that makes people keep doing this to me, right? Cuz I can't be upset with them. So that self-lame and shame uh can be uh a big part of it. And let

Me also say around the gender piece that, uh, often times for boys or men, uh, there's permission to be angry, but nothing else. So sometimes underneath the anger is actually disappointment, is actually grief, is actually hurt. Right. But we can't say my feelings are hurt and said have to say I'm hot. Right. Right. Cuz that's acceptable.

And you know, on the other side, that often it's not okay for women to express their anger. Right. Then they're the b- word, or they're emasculating, or, you know, that they just need to like smile and be grateful. So both of those things, like, limit our full humanity, right? That a woman could be angry and a man could be hurt. Why is that? Why is I guess of course we all know that that it is okay for that may be the most, well, I guess it's accepted that men and masculine is anger, and women and feminine is sadness. Is that kind of the going and why?

Yeah, it's I don't know. Maybe you do, maybe it doesn't matter. Why is why why are they femini or gender?

Yes. So I think it's it's with sexism, like who benefits from women not being allowed to be mad?

Okay, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it told her, you know, it's that whole thing of like being on the shelf, being eye candy, being property, you know.

So with again, we'll hit on anger. We know that term of, well, you said it in in essence or or refer to it in that it's okay to be angry in essence about things that are outrageous. How did you say that? Uh

Yes. Yeah. It's it's healthy to be outrageous, outrage about outrageous things. And so to even ask yourself, what are the things that I find outrageous? Like if nothing is outrageous to you, then you won't work to make anything better. So like whose suffering do you care about and whose suffering do you not care about?

Yeah.

So if you have that, we have that term of righteous anger. And maybe that's a a more faith-based perspective, but righteous anger. We, I, I grew up hearing about that in the church. Righteous anger against those things that are outrageous.

And you got me thinking as I was reading your book about, well, I'm also, I've I've recently gone through Brené Brown's new book, Atlas of the Heart. Yes. Where she pulls out instead of the, you know, three emotions that I generally would relate to, she's saying no, there's about 87. I think is what her number is. Literally 87 emotions. Can I

And I was I was just interested in that. Is there righteous sadness? Is there righteous, uh, I don't know, yeah, talk?

Yes. It is, uh, you know, empathy, right? Do I care about, uh, things and issues, uh, beyond myself? Like, you know, that this is griefworthy, right? Even if I was not the direct target, right? Do I have compassion? Do I have empathy? Do I have a care, uh, for for justice in the world? Or, you know, do I care about people who are being mistreated? And, uh, I think sometimes in this culture, there can be such a focus on productivity and wealth creation that it's like, tune out everything else and just make sure you and your family are good. And that's, you know, not a holistic way of living.

You have back on just disconnection. I appreciated you listed out, you literally have four bullet points, signs of being disconnected from self. So I'm going to ask everybody, think about yourself right now, not somebody else. You. Signs of disconnection from self. People pleasing, which is my number one.

Yeah.

Um, depression, which I haven't associated with in my unawareness.

Anxiety, definitely there. And, and I do want to pull, actually, let me ask you about that. Wait, no, I'll finish. Anxiety and then resentment. Okay. People pleasing, depression, anxiety, and resentment. Um, I do want to ask about anxiety. That is maybe it feels like one of the most popular terms that we're talking about in reference to to this aspect right now. And I have known that about myself and yet I've grappled with it. I've been a little challenged with it because I also realize we tend to think anxiety, oh, that's worry. That's being wor it's a negative thing. And yet I realize I can carry around anxiety about good things, about things that I'm excited about, and yet I'm still not back to peace. I'm not in a peaceful place.

And I haven't been able to reconcile that one. Can you speak to that to anxiety, that it's not just about worry, that it's not about life?

Yes. Yes. So, you know, there's a term people talk about like a healthy anxiety that can feel more like adrenaline or motivation or energized. You know, that some people are feel anxious before a speech, but then they go in there and that like pulls them through. And some people like run to the bathroom and don't come out, right? And can't do the talk. So, it's like immobilizing. Uh, so yes, there is a cushion or a room for the ways in which I can feel, uh, that anxiety, but am mobilized or inspired or energized versus it being debilitating.

Right. Okay. So in that people pleasing, depression, anxiety, resentment, I mean, that's something we can all self-audit, uh, to a degree to look for signs of a disconnected self. And maybe that is the answer. Well, I just We got a vacuum cleaner or something. Is that

Oh, they're outside. It's not It's the neighbor's yard.

Is it? Hold on.

Yeah, it's not going to stop.

So, with those signs of disconnection, I'm curious, just you, this is, you know, this is the consummate thing of, oh my gosh, I'm I'm talking with a psychologist. She's gonna she's gonna, you know, she's going to get me. But but in in that reference point, social times when you're with people, what are some of the biggest, just initial social telltale signs for you of somebody that you say, "Ah, that's a that's a disconnection. That's somebody who's on the spectrum, but I I see it."

Yeah. What is it?

So, one, uh, big sign that stands out is lack of self-awareness. So the example I gave when we're talking about the anger, when people are clearly upset, but are not willing to admit it. They're like, no, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm fine. So it's like you're even disconnected from your own experience, right? From your own body, from your own emotions. So there's, um, when people aren't tuned in to their own truth, and then secondly, when they're not tuned in to other people. Right? So when you see people and it's like they haven't read the room, like you don't see, right? You're not you're not paying attention to like, even the person you're speaking to, that this is not helpful. So it, it's, uh, that lack of awareness.

Yeah. Okay. Well, this is we'll anchor this talk right here, though it is a show probably in and of itself. Maybe we'll need to come back and and talk because you have a significant part on reparenting. I honestly have not heard that term. To me, I right away went to, and maybe it's semantics to a degree, but was to reprogramming. The, I feel like brainwashing that we all had as children. And as a father, I've looked at that and realized I can't, I can't not brainwash my kids. I mean, that that my experience or what the experience I afford them is so much of what they're going to be programmed by. I'm gonna do my best, but I want them to come to a point of reckoning, of questioning, and of looking at where do they need to question some of that, reprogram themselves. And you're saying reparent, and that gave me a new paradigm towards that that we all now have the

responsibility, is that what you say to and opportunity. How maybe that responsibility, opportunity to reparent ourselves, but that's

I just have not experienced that paradigm. I'm sure that you're aware of that and that's why you put it in the book.

Yes. So I, I like it. I have used that reprogramming language before, and yet at the same time, I think when we think programming, you know, it feels mechanical. Okay? Like we're just like this empty slate and people type things into us, right? So when you think parenting, good parenting, healthy parenting, you think of more like nourishment or care or teaching. And it's it also, I think sticks out for me because I've worked with a lot of people who are stuck in resentment, of the parenting they received, and understandably so, but also nobody wants to be stuck, right? So it's like, yes, we, not all of us got, even for for no parent has been perfect, so there are things they missed, there are things they may have done that were harmful. So now, you know, I grieve that, I acknowledge that, and now how do I treat myself?

Yeah.

How do I give myself the things I was longing for from them?

Well, what I said there is a great for me encapsulation of the book. You gave me more to understand and to be responsible for, but to have the opportunity of, and I am again, I love the I love the title, Homecoming. Who does not want to, in a safe place, in a good place, in an authentic place, in a holistic place, come home. So, I'm just grateful for what you've done to bring this book to us and for the time you've given me here today. Tamma, thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed the conversation.

Thanks for joining the conversation today. That again is Dr. Tam T Ha Bryant. Dr. Tam Bryant. Her book again is Homecoming: Healing Trauma to Reclaim Our Authentic Self. And you can connect with her at drhm.com and find her drum on Instagram with her big following there. It was a joy to have this conversation to share it with you. Till next time, here's to the evolving you.

Yeah.