Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis: Pivotal Aspects of REBT Therapy Sessions

You're going to have an opportunity to watch Dr. Jaffe Ellis engaged in a live demonstration. This will support her discussion about tonight's topic, which are pivotal aspects of our EBT therapy sessions: the role of the therapist, the client, and challenges for advanced practitioners.

As always, we want to do a couple of things. My colleague Tom Mazzarelli and I would like to thank Dr. Katya Passourini in the Provost's office for supporting this series and for the Teaching Learning and Technology Center for backing this up and making sure the technology works for everything.

As if you're new to tonight's presentation, haven't attended any of the other four, Dr. Jaffee Ellis will speak briefly tonight. You'll see the demonstration, she'll continue her presentation, and then at the end of the session, we will have a Q&A. We are asking everyone to please type your questions into the chat on the screen, and we will go through the questions and present them to Dr. Jaffee Ellis.

Also, normally we have links for evaluation criteria so that you can get your continuing education credits for each of these presentations. Because of a technical reason, we're not able to post these tonight. But assuming your name was on the registration, my mirror like to get this email, we will send that evaluation form to you after the session.

I want to remind everybody that we are recording and that we will post this after the session is complete. So without any further delay, I have one final request, and that is, please check to make sure that your audio is muted. And also, please check to now make sure that your camera is turned off. We're especially featuring this part tonight because we want to make sure that when the demonstration occurs, only Dr. Jaffee Ellis and the person she'll be speaking with will be on the screen.

So once again, the leading expert in the world on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, somebody who writes for Psychology Today, teaches at Columbia University, and continues the phenomenal work of her husband, Albert Ellis. I introduce Dr. Debbie Jaffee Ellis.

Ah, thank you so much. As always, it's such a pleasure and privilege to have this opportunity to be with you all. Um, my beginning thanks, uh, to Dr. Andy Simon and Dr. Tom Mazzarelli, behind the scenes, who really, um, initiated this series and are doing so much, um, to, um, uplift and and promote many aspects within the world of psychology. Um, Dr. Simon and Mazzarelli are not only great contributors to our field, but they're remarkably kind, warm-hearted, fabulous individuals, and I'm grateful to know you both. And I want to thank the tech guys who've helped us all along, Mike, Mike Sulpius, and Burke Locksley, and Lucy Vasquez, who's been an admin or is in admin, and also Provost Dr. Passourini for also making this series possible. And of course, I want to thank all of you, those of you who are here live and those of you who are watching the recording of what we're doing tonight at a later date. Welcome, welcome.

So how are you all? How are you all? You know, we started this five-part series at the end of October 2020. This is being recorded the 8th of December 2020, and in, in those few weeks, let's, let's reflect, if you would like to join me in reflecting, that there have been many changes just in that short time. Many changes. You know, here in the United States of America, where I'm recording from, um, since that first session, there's a new president about to take office in a few weeks. There's been a reliable vaccine confirmed. The days and nights are getting colder, which may not be the case to those of you watching in Australia or other places in the Southern Hemisphere, perhaps India and elsewhere. You know, it changes. And I'm sure if you reflect in your day-to-day life, there have been some changes since the end of October to now, just a few weeks. And not telling you anything you don't know, but sometimes we don't pause to reflect on the fact that the nature of life is change. The nature of life is change. And when people forget that and get into catastrophizing and this implicit false subconscious idea of "this will last forever," that exacerbates any emotional suffering. We are forgetting the healthy, realistic perspective that whatever we're going through, this too will pass. When things are tough, things in all likelihood will change for the better.

Now, of course, that doesn't apply to all of us. Some individuals catch an illness or have another circumstance and they pass. Reminder to those of us still alive: life is finite. Each one of us will have our time. But for those of us who survive the bad times, for most of us, most of the time, do pass. Mostly, things can get better. When things are great, great, high, high, high, let us cherish them, enjoy them, because they too can pass. Now, that's nothing that needs to lead to depression. It's healthy, realistic acceptance of the nature of life. And if they pass, there's every probability that that as good or better things may lie ahead. So it's really important and beneficial for us to keep a healthy perspective in mind. REBT isn't the only psychotherapeutic approach or philosophy that reminds us of that, but I'm talking about REBT, so I'm REBT-ingly reminding us of that. And one of the reasons I adore REBT so much, and and one of the reasons are so well, particularly those of us in the helping professions, and I think a majority of people watching either are in the helping professions or our students intending to to be working in the helping professions, and that includes education, which is a huge helping profession. So it's, I find so valuable to know REBT for each of us, not only because it enhances our professional lives, it gives us tools and techniques to use to help others in our professional lives, but as we're sharing them with others, we're reinforcing them within ourselves so that we can apply them to ourselves. REBT is more than just a scientific evidence-based therapeutic approach, which it is, par excellence, excellence, excellence. But it's also a way of life for those of us who choose to use it as such. And it's probably no surprise to most of you who are listening, if not all, that burnout is something important for we in the helping professions, and anyone in any profession or not in a profession, to watch out for. But certainly in our profession, the, the studies show that there's a high, high percentage of people who, who can succumb to burnout. And REBT offers a simple and beautiful reminder and tools to prevent that.

So having said that, that REBT is not just a therapeutic approach, it's also a way of life, I'm really looking forward to meeting Kyla, who I haven't met yet. And, um, I thank Kyla for being willing to, to share with us whatever she's going to share. And I would love to start our demo now.

Hello? Can you see me? No, I, in fact, I'm a little dot at the corner, and I'm only seeing, uh, now I see you, uh, Kyla. I don't see me, which probably isn't a problem, um, in terms of communicating. Are you able to see me? I, yes, I can see you. Great. And I'll just ask, Andy, Tom, is, is this okay? Do you need to adjust anything? It works fine. We can, you can both be on the screen this way. Is that better? I'm only seeing, as I'm only seeing your initials now. Okay. I will go back and forth highlighting each one of you. Okay. Whatever I see now, I, I see you. And, oh, I don't see you, Andy. I see your initials. So I'm, I'm, I don't need to see me. I only want to see Kyla. So if those of you who are viewing see us both, that's fine. That's fine. Debbie, you can just go ahead. Okay. Except now I don't see Kyla. Version of yourself. I, I read that behind you. We could have a lovely conversation about that. However, it's a pleasure. However, if we have time, we could. But more importantly, what issues, what, what would you like to bring up now for us to look at?

Sure. So first, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. So the issue that I would like to present is my feelings of overthinking. Um, I'll start by saying that I generally overthink a lot. It's something that I have been doing basically all my life, but more so it is a becoming a stronger issue now. I recently applied to grad school. I applied to the school psychology PhD programs, and I have been immensely overthinking everything. Even though my applications are already submitted and everything is completely done, it is something that I'm still overthinking now. And this was, it wasn't that long ago, maybe like a week and a half, two weeks ago, but it's something that I'm thinking about every day. And I'm just thinking about, was it good enough? Did I do everything that I could have? And it's just taking over a little bit too much for comfort. Um, like I said, this is some, I overthink a lot. This is something that normally I can work with and I can deal with, but lately, it's been becoming just a little bit too much to bear.

Well, luckily, it's not too too much to bear, or you would have exploded, imploded, you'd be all over the place. So I just want to remind you, you are bearing it, but, uh, clearly it's not very comfortable, right? Definitely. And I feel like, sorry. Oh, thank you. And I feel like it's also, um, like I'm over, I feel like I'm overthinking, um, like school as well. This is finals week. So I mean, this is a normally a stressful point in my life during any semester, but I feel like it's almost times two that I've been just like overthinking. Once I submit an assignment, I normally, I just forget about it. I submit the assignment, I'm done with it. But now I've noticed that I keep thinking about it.

And how do you feel about what you've just shared with me? You're overthinking too much for your comfort. How do you feel about that? Um, I mean, I feel like, if anything, it's just, it's very uncomfortable having that feeling. So it's just very, sorry, can I have, do I have your permission to sometimes intrude into your, while you're speaking? Yeah, that's totally fine. Yeah. And I just want to explain, it's not out of lack of respect or courtesy. Sometimes I want to help you catch yourself saying something or that that may be helpful. So with your permission, if it seems appropriate or helpful, you don't mind if I barge in? That's totally fine. Thank you very much. Great. So sometimes, may I point out to you, sometimes you use the word "feel," but I think it might be more accurate to say "think." I think I'm overthinking, rather than "I feel I'm overthinking," right? Does that make sense? Because the, the more precise we can get into the habit of being where with our use of words, both in our head and when we speak, the more comfortable and, um, easy, the easier it may be to keep awareness high and choose healthier ways of thinking. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, that does make sense. Okay.

So Kyla, what, what I asked before, and I don't think you quite answered, and forgive me if you did, but when I ask, "And how do you feel about this overthinking of late?" I'm referring to an emotion, if there is one, or, um, I don't know if there's necessarily a specific emotion that goes along with it, like angry, sad, like those kind of, like that. Um, I guess frustrated would be a good way to describe it, because it is frustrating at times to have the, the continuous overthinking replaying in my head. So, in a nutshell, what would make your life easier right now? I'm trying to clarify what could be a good goal for us to work towards in, in this time that we have.

Sure. I guess what would I would really appreciate would be trying to find just a way to alleviate that feeling when I'm, because when I do, when I, when I overthink, what I knowing, sorry. No, it's okay. I said "feeling" and I heard, I felt it too. Alleviate the feeling of that overthinking. Um, like when I, when I start to overthink, I get anxious, frustrated. So alleviating that. The answer. Oh, so there's some anxiety there, as well as the frustration? Definitely. Yeah. I can understand that. I think. Okay. So you would love to feel, tell me if I'm getting it right, and please tell me if I'm getting it wrong. Your goal might be to feel less anxious and frustrated and to curb the tendency to overthink? Yes, that's exactly it. Okay. All right.

Now, Kyla, when you're overthinking and then you recognize you're feeling frustrated and anxious, what might you be telling yourself to create that frustration and anxiety? So I would say that when it gets to a point where it's, like, extreme, like the thoughts have been going in my head, circling and circling, I guess I would be telling myself, like, in terms of my applications, I'll be specific, in terms of, um, graduate school, in the applications, um, I didn't do enough on them, and I could have, I could have added one more thing in order to make it better, um, stuff like that. Like that's what goes through my head. Is that, like, I could have done better? I could, maybe I didn't include, I should have included something that I didn't include, um, in terms of, like, my personal statement. So things like that, that's what would be running through my head in that specific scenario.

Right. Coulders and sugars and wooders? Yes, exactly. That would make a good song, wouldn't it? Right. So, so demands, you're putting these demands on yourself, huh? Right. Where is that getting you? Nowhere, just frustrated and anxious and more stressed than I was in the first place. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago, Kyla, that you, you're overthinking now more than you used to, that it's something you've done, but it's not been as, as much as now. To, to those might not be the exact words used, but yeah. So it sounds like you managed that tendency in the past, rather than the demand should. And how did you do that? Generally, when I used to overthink, um, it would, this is, I don't know how to describe it, in like a, it would be like in a positive and when appropriate, give them reading, which would be for a good reason, and it would encourage me to, like, complete something. So, for example, um, I'm a senior now, and like say, in my freshman year, my sophomore year, like I would overthink about the assignments that I need to get done, but it would be for a good reason, and I'd be overthinking about them so that way I would get them done. I don't know if that makes sense.

But it does. And I stopped you dead. So when you overthought at that time, did you feel anxious or frustrated? Not as much as I do now. I wouldn't say frustrated would be the right term for it. I would say more so anxious, but not as anxious as I feel now. Okay. So we're not comparing. I'm putting the spotlight on back then. Okay. Okay. So was that anxiety helping you? Yes, definitely. How so? Um, well, like I said, like just like the anxiety would help motivate me to get it done because once I finished, I would have that, like, breath of fresh air. Like I wouldn't have to worry about it anymore. It wouldn't be, it wouldn't be there. Right.

What's your definition? Can you describe for me anxiety and how it feels in your body? How it feels to you? Not, I'm not asking for a broad dictionary definition. I'm asking for Kyla's version. Sure. So my version of anxiety is, it feels more physical than it does mental. I tend to, like, I experience physical symptoms. So I'll shake a little bit, um, sometimes my palms will get a little sweaty, um, and my heart will beat really fast, and it feels like a, like a tension in my chest, like in my chest. Those are more like the, and that's generally what I feel like mentally. It's more physical symptoms for me when I experience, when I experience anxiety. Oh, for a lot of people, actually. I would say most, because that's how we can recognize that we're feeling anxious.

Kyla, could you describe for me your experience of what I'm going to call concern? You, yeah, my paper is due in three days. I'm concerned. Have you ever felt concerned rather than anxiety? Concern as in, I wouldn't get it done? Like, that is that kind of, is that the, what you're asking? What, what's your definition of the enrollment? I think someone has their microphone on, unless you're shuffling. Yeah, can everyone turn off your mics? Thanks. Um, did you watch an earlier, um, presentation in this series? No, I have not. Okay. Okay. So I was talking about healthy versus unhealthy negative emotions. Negative, not being bad, but not so pleasant. And anxiety, for, I think many, many, many people, would be as you described it. And a healthy counterpart is concern, where a person isn't wooding and shooting and cutting, but they're aware of things that would be required or good to do. And so that's the healthy counterpart to anxiety. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Do you ever feel concerned rather than anxious? Oh, yes, I definitely do feel that. Can you give me one example? Sure. So I would say when it comes to school, I feel more anxious. But I guess concerned when it comes to work. Like I'm concerned, I can, I don't know, I don't know flooring appropriate homework. A good example, because I, I guess I tend to feel more anxiety in my life. Right. Right.

Okay. Do you know anything about the approach of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy? No. Oh, okay. Forgive me. I thought you had some knowledge of it. Well, it's the pioneering cognitive approach, and it teaches and reminds us that it's not circumstances that create our emotions, but the way we think about them that creates our emotions. And when we think in rational ways, we usually create healthy emotions. And if it's about a, a challenging situation, we'll call them healthy negative emotions, negative here, not meaning bad, but not pleasant. And when we think in unhealthy, irrational ways about the same situation, challenging situation, we create the debilitating, unhealthy negative emotions. And they include, this will shock you, anxiety and high frustration, panic, fear, depression, hopelessness, despondency, rage, shame, and guilt. As I described them, do you have a sense of how and why they're considered unhealthy? Kyla? Yes, definitely. Can you briefly say why you would consider they're unhealthy? Briefly, because they are not, they're not helping you, um, like positively. Like they're exhibiting like negative, well, for me, physical experiences. Like it's not something that's helping you, it's just making it worse. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Not well said. They don't help us achieve healthy goals. They can debilitate, um, they affect us in a, in a negative way on, on a physical level, as well as emotional, and can lead to unhealthy behaviors, which may include overthinking. Overthinking is not a feeling. It's a behavior. And earlier, when we started talking, you actually used the word "feeling," and so, um, I, I hope it's helpful to you that I, I'm going to keep distinguishing between the two. Definitely. I do think it is helpful. Great. Great.

And then conversely, when we think in healthy, rational ways about a challenging situation, the healthy emotions include concern instead of anxiety and, and panic and, and high frustration. Concern is very motivating. It doesn't debilitate. It's that push in the tush, I just made that up, that kind of come on, that that prevents us from from procrastinating and not getting things done, but it doesn't cause those physical symptoms that can be distracting and lead to avoidance or other unhelpful behaviors. And then, just, just to finish that, but we're going to get back to your anxiety and frustration. When we think in healthy ways, instead of hopelessness and depression, there's healthy grief and sadness and disappointment when things don't go the way we want. They're healthy emotions in this tapestry of life, but they don't debilitate. And then instead of rage, there's healthy anger. Meaning, in REBT, we talk about a moral compass that a person who's not disturbed in some way prefers to live by. So healthy anger would be noticing some brutality, lack of civility, prejudice, abuse, and, and a desire for that to change. But we don't act blindly. We're able to consider what might or might not be the best thing to do. So that's healthy anger. REBT doesn't want us to be in some neutral, non-emotional zone, but a healthy one. And finally, instead of shame and guilt, which a lot of people, by the way, to show how potentially dangerous they can be, some people, good number, a bad number of people who attempt suicide, who've given up hope, um, often feel ashamed and guilty. Anyway, instead of that, again, reminding us of a healthy moral compass, we'll feel regret, wanting to learn from any mistake or failure, but not considering we're a failure or mistake, just what we did wasn't that great. And a very important part of REBT then, now, what will self-acceptance, which I'm guessing, tell me if I'm wrong, that it might be really good for you to work on having more of, if you don't already. Do you accept yourself unconditionally, even if when you screw up? No. And so I would remind you, this approach would remind you, and are you willing to think about this after I say it, Kyla? You have worth just because you exist. You can't screw that up. Now, you may not do as well at some proposals and papers and exams, but that doesn't mean you're any less worthwhile as the unique human being that you are. It just means you didn't do that well in those activities, but you have worth because you exist. What do you think of that?

Sounds nice. I like, I mean, I wish that I felt that way more in those times when I was, when I think that I'm overwhelmed. Did I just say that? Did I say that right? Yeah. No, saying "feel" or like "overthinking." No, no. Well, one can feel overwhelmed. You used the word "feeling" with regard to overthinking, which seems to be more behavior. But, um, I'm, I'm really glad that you wish you did. You know, now, when we've been doing something for a long, long time, it may not change in an instant. The fact that you wish it would, guess what? It's possible, but it's going to take you working on identifying anytime you think of that old stinky attitude of "when I don't do well enough, it means I'm not good enough" and challenging that and replacing it with the truth, which is, "Well, I'm disappointed I didn't do better. I can try to do better, but I have worth no matter what." And so I, I urge you that to tonight be a starting, if you're genuine that you wish you thought. And that means they really, you know, pick yourself up. You've already done the first step that you recognize that you haven't been feeling that way a lot of the time. And by the way, that issue is what drew my attention to that sign behind you: "Be the best version of yourself." Kyla, can anyone like, is there a best version of oneself? That's a tricky question. I mean, no, I guess there is not a particular best version, but I do think that there is a best version for a specific situation, if that makes sense. Like acting like how I interpret the sign is like standing up for the right things and just being the best person that you can be in the given situation that you are in.

The, is likely can be, I don't know, smacks to me of, of, uh, a little, tell me if this isn't the way you think of it, a little bit of, "I should be the best version of me." Yeah, I guess, I mean, yeah, I guess I would agree with that. "I should be the best version of myself." Well, you should be, and you're not, then what would your attitude be to yourself? If you're thinking, "I should be the best version," and you screw up, then, uh, what does that say about Kyla? Honestly, be honest with us. Sure. So, I mean, yeah, I guess that, that, that would lead right back to the anxiety and the feelings that I am not good enough, and then it cycles back. So, yeah. That's an important recognition.

Is there someone in your life who you love deeply, deeply, deeply? Yes. Can you think of that per, you don't have to tell me their name or who they are. So, are they perfect all the time? No. Are they always the best version of themselves? No. Do you love them any less when they're not the best versions of themselves? No. Not a little bit less? No. Really? How about that? So tell me, Kyla, how is it possible that you can accept them unconditionally, which is what it sounds to me like you're doing, but up until now, you're indicating that you haven't really been too successful at accepting yourself unconditionally, if you're thinking you weren't in a moment the best version of yourself? Tell me, what's the difference between your attitude to them and your attitude to you? I'm just harder on myself. I, I have, I feel, I feel like I set higher expectations for myself and the act, my actions and my behavior than I would, I would ever expect anyone else to do. Where does that get you? Stressed and anxious. I'm not asking you to adopt sloppiness, includes even if they don't make, suggesting that you don't make good effort to, if you want to use the word "best," the best effort that you can in the moment, because in a moment, we have certain choices. But to say "the best version of yourself," it sounds pretty global, don't you think? Apparently, it does. And that's not how I initially did interpret it, but now I am understanding it to be that way. The global aspect, if you could modify that, how might you? The sign, um, um, just do what you can. Almost, I'm not like that. Stay the way I am, or I suggest that you can each day, not making, not be the best version of yourself, but just doing what you can. Wonderful, because you're now connecting "best" in a finite time related to your activity. Do the best, rather than "be," because I assert your "be" issues related what they're in now was and it ever will be, because that's a given. You have worth because you exist. Can, are you, is that palatable to you at this moment? Yes. I suggest, if to help you, perhaps think of how easy it appears for you to do that with that loved one you were thinking of. Do they have any more worth than you do, Kyla, as a human? No. I think you're responding from an intellectual level, and maybe till now, you thought you did. Is my speculation on track? Yes. Yeah. No, definitely. I'm not surprised. I, I, I noticed the way you said that. But, um, this is new to you. What I'm, I'm presenting is you, and I'm very impressed by the way you seem to be getting it. Thank you. And so I hope when I'm sharing with you, with seeds that you intend to fertilize and water so that they flourish into healthy thinking and acceptance of yourself. And this is just a starting point, if you choose to use it as such.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. No, I feel like I definitely have, like when I first started talking, it felt like it was, um, like internal my feelings, but now I feel like it's, I can find places for them externally. It's not just me. Like, it's not all, everything isn't on me. If that makes well, um, I think so. If you, you mean, I, I'm actually, I'm not really clear. No, it's okay. I felt like a lot of, like my, like how I was describing, like, yes, no, you didn't feel that. I'm sorry. I thought that a lot of, um, my, like feelings were very, um, like internal and like I was telling myself that I wasn't good enough, like I couldn't be, like everything, like that. But now I feel like, now I think that I can, um, I'm working, I'm trying. You're doing good now. I think that I can find places outside of me to work on. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's it. That's just how I feel. Actually, no, I don't want to leave that because it doesn't make sense. What do you mean outside of you? Like, I feel like I am able to, sorry. You think that I think that I am able to attribute, um, the feelings that I was feeling internally to other sources. So like for my graduate applications, like I was feeling that I wasn't able to do it well enough, I wasn't able to, I think that, I think that I wasn't able to do it well enough. I think that I am not going to get accepted or whatever it may be. But I feel like I think that I can, um, start attributing it, those feelings, like elsewhere. Like I think that I can start just telling, like being able to tell myself that it's not my fault. Like it's, it's something that has passed already. I'm, I'm not really, I'm still not understanding. I'm sorry.

No, it's okay. Let's, let's clarify this. It's worthwhile. So, what, what I've proposed to you earlier is your anxiety and frustration, by the way, you're doing really well. You're doing really well. You had, you didn't know anything about this approach, and you're doing really well. So please don't feel discouraged. No, no, no. I'm not. Thank you. Hey, so I was sharing earlier that it's not a situation that creates your emotion, but what you're telling yourself about it. And you identified the emotions of anxiety and frustration as ones you wanted to feel less of, correct? And you also described a contributing behavior that you want to do less of, which is overthinking. And it would be possible if you overthought, overthought, overthought, not to feel anxious and frustrated if you didn't have demands, shooters, kudos, and wooders, and putting your worth down when you're not achieving what you think you should. Does that make sense? And so it actually is all internal. It's all in your, not only hands, but in your head, the way you think about things. And if you change perspective, and I don't mean some romantic, "it's all for the best, lady." I mean, realistic perspective. And, um, that will create emotions that are not debilitating. Does that make sense?

And earlier, I expressed the difference between the healthy and unhealthy negative emotions. I'd like to quickly tell you the unhealthy irrational ways of thinking that create the unhealthy ones. As I do, please think of which of those you adopt to make yourself anxious and frustrated. I've already mentioned the demands, shoulda, coulda, coulda, woulda, catastrophizing, awfulizing, if this doesn't happen, it would be awful, if it would be awful, making things out that if it's not the way you think it should be, it would be awful, meaning the worst it could be, blowing things out of perspective, absolutistic thinking, overgeneralizing, not having any humor, and damning yourself, others, and life if things don't go the way you think they should. So any and all of those ways of thinking will create the unhealthy emotions. When we think in healthy ways, creates the healthy ones. It's the opposite to everything I said: preferences instead of demands. I would love to do well in this interview. I'd prefer to pass this exam. That's healthy, rather than "I should." Because if you prefer, if you desire, and you don't, you'll be healthfully sad and disappointed. But if "I should," "I should," and you don't, you may feel anxious, frustrated, or depressed, unhealthy. Um, we have preferences. We keep things in perspective. We don't awfulize or catastrophize or think in absolutistic ways. And we have, what I shared with you before, unconditional self-acceptance. I hope you're going to change that poster up there. Unconditional other acceptance, which it seems you have, at least with someone you love, if not everyone in your world. And unconditional life acceptance. So we can stand, um, injustice in, in the world, in life, but we still can focus on what is good. We can hate what a person does, but we remember, well, to do such a thing, there's some disturbance. They still have worth. Lucky for me that I don't have their biology or background that could lead me to do that. So it doesn't mean you, you like what they do, that's bad, but you unconditionally accept that other. And we've already talked about what unconditional self-acceptance is. So that's a, like a mini brief version of, of REBT. Before we go back to you, I just wanted to tell you about a time check, because you would ask. That's all. Thank you so much, Andy. Yeah, I, I think I'll need a little extra time and perhaps, um, finish in 10 minutes, if you like. My, thank you, Andy.

So any questions about what I just said, Kyla? Um, no, I don't have any questions about it. Okay. So if, if I were overthinking, overthinking, overthinking, what would you advise me to do? Um, I guess I would generally say, like, just to try to take a few deep breaths and to maybe go on a walk, because that's what helps me sometimes when I'm overthinking, just anything to distract yourself.

And if I told you I feel so anxious when I overthink, what might you tell me that might help me feel less anxious? That's a good question. Um, I guess my initial, what I would say is that just to try to relax and just to try to, um, I don't know, I'm a big believer in like, just feeling your emotions, just a little bit, or thinking your emotions, just a little bit, because they're, it's natural and it's, it happens. So sometimes you can't just suppress that.

Okay, that's really valuable that you said that. I'm not suggesting suppression, unless you want to stay anxious and frustrated, and that's your right. I'm not suggesting suppression. I'm suggesting transformation. And the way that comes about. And by the way, what you started to say was was a very good first step. Breathe, go for a walk, calm yourself. So that will give temporary relief, but that's not enough, because you're still in the ways that had you anxious in the first place. The next place, the next step, rather, is to identify what you're telling yourself that makes you anxious and to dispute it and put things in perspective and come up with a healthy belief to replace it. And if you're going to ruminate, someone has their microphone on. That has a doggy, unless it's yours. Okay. Hi, doggy. I can't hear you now. Kyla, I can't hear you. Sorry, I'm just trying to get her last night. Okay. No, you're done. Virtual pattern. It's okay. Well, hello. He wanted, wanted a little bit of a spotlight as well. It is quite okay. Now, do you love him any less because he distracted us? No. Why not? That wasn't the best version of himself. I know it's not her fault. I mean, she hurts her. It's totally her fault. She, sorry, she, I said he before. Okay. Okay. Why don't you love her any less? She really wasn't the best version of herself. The best version of herself would have been to sit there looking at you with adoration and shut her mouth. But she just, now, not the best version. How is it that you don't love her any less? I mean, she's, she's a dog. Like, I don't know. She couldn't control herself, I guess. And that blaming her for barking. I mean, it was her behavior, right? But you don't think she has any less worth, right? No. So I'm, I'm mentioning that why? Because it's attributing to me, and I shouldn't blame myself for not being, sorry. It should, again, you preferably shouldn't. I, I should preferably shouldn't. Yeah. Um, attribute like those thoughts, those feelings to myself. Like when I think that I'm anxious, like I shouldn't attribute that I'm not good enough. Yeah. You can constructively criticize what you did or didn't do, but that says nothing about your worth. Does that make sense? Yes, it does.

So in the interest of time, do you mind if I speculate on some of the thoughts you might be thinking that create your anxiety? I'm sure. Might it be, might they include, "Rather, I'm overthinking. I'm overthinking. I shouldn't be overthinking. It's terrible. It's awful. I shouldn't be thinking this way." And, and what if, um, "I didn't do well enough. I should have done better. What if, what if, what if?" Are those the kind of thoughts? Yes. Are they helping you or hurting you? Hurting. I agree. And so what might be possible for you to try? Would be whenever you're feeling anxious or frustrated, to write down those kind of irrational thoughts where there's a demand or a put down or a woulda, coulda, shoulda, putting your worth down, and then to dispute them and come up with a healthy replacement. Disputing, saying, "Where is the evidence that just because I didn't do a good enough job that I'm not good enough? Where's the evidence that if I don't get accepted, it would be awful? The end of the world? Be inconvenient, but really awful? Could my life have no happiness or meaning?" And you just think things through. You know, often we, people who suffer unhealthy emotions, their mind runs wild. We're not thinking about our thinking. We don't notice when we're thinking in self-defeating ways, and they rule the roost, and the result is anxiety and frustration. So if you're willing, okay, I'm feeling anxious, frustrated. Here's your mantra, Kyla. One of them: "What am I telling myself to make myself anxious?" By the way, you're going to be able to get a recording of this, so hopefully you can look at it and take notes of anything that you think is helpful. "What am I kind of telling myself to make myself anxious?" Write down all those thoughts, dispute them in the way I said, and then come up with healthy new thoughts, such as, "Worst case scenario, I don't get accepted. It's not the end of the world. I can try again. It's a habit that I overthink, overthink. I can keep doing things to help me stop that, like ping a rubber band, imagine a stop sign, go for a walk." And then go through any irrational beliefs I have. Worth no matter what. And you write down those helpful thoughts, those coping statements, and you stick them on that whiteboard and you read them every day for the next 30 days. What do you think of that? And please give me your feedback and any questions. Um, I, I like that a lot. Um, I try to do daily affirmations, and I have them on my mirror, like those little, um, like post-it notes. So I think that that would be a great thing to add to it because I do try to do that every morning. So I hope you succeed to do that every morning. Thank you. Try. See how I'm picking on words. I'll have an additional suggestion. Every morning, would you be willing to take time, if you're not already, to remember what you can be grateful for? I, okay, idea. I could definitely try to implement that. What would be the benefit? Just, I feel like reflecting, just being able to identify all the things that I do have in my life right now, um, the support systems and everything. Yes. And if we get in the habit of remembering daily, not taking for granted, not that I'm saying you do, but making it a daily practice to remember what we can be grateful for, then when there's a circumstance like my proposal, my paper, my exam, we don't give it 100% of our focus. We keep it in perspective. It's important, but it's not the only important thing in our lives, and it helps give perspective. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Okay.

Now, um, I'd like to finish. And by the way, Andy and everyone, I know I'm going over time, but I hope this is valuable. And I'll still have a good 20 minutes to, to share the other material. Kyla, would you be willing to do a brief exercise now? It's called Rational Emotive Imagery. Ah, sure. Okay. Could you close your eyes and take a few clearing breaths, please? And what I invite you to do now is to vividly imagine that you haven't done well enough in your, um, proposals and in the, the academic type work that you want very much to excel in. And it's December, and you think you really may not have done well enough. Can you vividly imagine that? And how, how, in a world or two, how do you feel? Um, like my chest actually started to like tighten up a little bit. Feel it. Feel it. Feel anxious. Keep your eyes closed. Just like, feeling like, yeah, just like that feeling in my chest is back. And the emotion, the word for the emotion, anxious. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Keep visualizing. And you see the dates on the calendar, and you haven't heard back yet whether you've been accepted or not, and you don't know what's going to happen. Can you, can you vividly imagine that? Oh, yes. And what do you feel? I'm just feeling more anxious. And, hey, Kyla, feel that. You don't have to answer me now. Just feel that. And, and continue to visualize what you were that seems pretty dire right now. And what I invite you to do, Kyla, in your own way, I'm not going to tell you what to do or how. I invite you to reduce that anxiety, to turn the volume down on that anxiety, even get rid of it, whichever. I invite you to reduce that anxiety or remove it. And when you've done that, open your eyes.

Hi. Hi. What are you feeling? Relaxed. How's your chest? It's a lot lighter. Kyla, you know, you just changed your anxiety in less than 45 seconds. I didn't even tell you how you did it. How did you do it, Kyla? I just talked. I don't, I will, hearing your voice was helpful too, but just like telling myself like that I'm okay and that everything will be okay, like at the end of the day. Um, I don't know. And I just, I felt like a difference in my chest, like it just felt like I could feel the lightness of it. And would that be because you stopped thinking those self-defeating thoughts and you told yourself those beliefs? Yeah. You achieved that in less than 45. It might have been less than 40 seconds. I don't need to convince you. You just showed yourself. How about that? No, yeah. It, no, it feels good. It feels really good. Would you be willing to do what we just did for the next 30 days? Imagine the worst and then talk yourself out of it? Yeah. Until you feel differently in a positive sense? Yeah. I would be willing.

Now, Kyla, we started with you saying you wanted to stop your over-ruminating, and I went to the emotions associated with that, the anxiety and the frustration. And I don't want to neglect what you first presented, but in the course of our conversation, and I'm sorry we have limited time, a few things came up. In the past, ways you coped with overthinking were going for a walk, distracting yourself, and that was helpful short term, but it didn't get to the root of over-ruminating, which I think is probably the anxiety. It's kind of circular. So in addition to the kind of helpful distraction and calming in a walking, breathing way, would you be willing whenever you consider that your, or notice you're overthinking, you could either wear a rubber band to bring it to your attention and imagine a stop sign, and then think yourself out of that behavior and anxiety in the way we described? Would you be willing to do that? Ah, yes. Over there for the, every day for the next 30 days, if you notice it, or when you notice it? Yes. Great. Great.

Now, we have to finish up in minutes. Any final thoughts or questions? Um, no, I don't have any final thoughts or questions. Just thank you so much for listening and providing the information. It really was helpful and I appreciated it. It's my pleasure. It'll really be helpful if you apply what we talked about. Otherwise, it will have been a nice 30 minutes and you'll go back to the old stuff. And I believe clearly, you're a very bright woman, and I believe when you're motivated to do something, that you're very capable of doing it. And so, even as an experiment, I encourage you to apply what we talked about over the next 30 days. And I invite you to email me any questions or concerns in the meantime, and let me know how you go. Is that okay? Yeah, that sounds great. Thank you so much. Wonderful. Thank you, Kyla. Bye.

Great. So, um, here I am again. Um, I had intended for it to be briefer, but I hope you've all, um, found it informative, particularly in the light of what I'm going to share with you in the next 20 plus minutes. That was an example of applying REBT. Now, I wrongly assumed Kyla was a psychology student and knew something about REBT, and it was, in a way, great that she didn't, because you saw an example of how I attempted to explain to her.

Not in an academic way, but in, I hope, a conversational way, the basics of REBT and how they could be applied to her. And so, for those of you who have the handout, and if you don't have it now, no worries. You can get it on a link later, or you might see the link now in, in, in the chat section of, of the screen.

Um, so the handouts, uh, highlight pivotal appointment REBT sessions. And so I'm going to quickly go through that with you. And as I do, think about which of those steps I, I applied to, and with, and for Kyla. So the first step is to clarify the client's issues and therapeutic goals. So with Kyla, her goal seems to be predominantly behavioral. The over-ruminating. In my experience, when that happens, there's usually an unhealthy emotion involved. And so Kyla identified frustration, anxiety, and we got to working on that. And towards the end, linked the two, how she can serve herself by attending both to the unhelpful behaviors, and I made some behavioral techniques suggestions, and then identifying the beliefs and so forth, but also tending to the unhealthy emotions.

Two, I did my best, as it says in the handout. When I look down, I'm referring to the handout that you have. Listen well, as much as possible. Model REBT principles and practices, such as unconditional acceptance, empathy, and compassion. So I, I genuinely felt those things, and I hope they came across to Kyla. I have a hunch they may have because, again, I could be wrong, but my sense is that if Kyla had not felt a sense of unconditional acceptance and empathy, she may not have been as beautifully open and revealing and participating as she was.

So three, be alert and direct. Do you think I was direct enough? I asked for her permission for me to interrupt so she wouldn't misunderstand my intention in doing so. And point out to the client when they're thinking in self-defeating ways. Did you see me do that? When people, as, pa, especially in the early days of REBT, can be a habit to say "should." And I, I attempt with a smile to stick in the, preferably make it a preference. If you're going to do the "should," you know, preferably "should" rather than the demand "should."

The fourth step, teach the client principles of REBT. I did my best in the short time we had, and when appropriate, give them reading material. I'll email that to you, Kyla, if you email me, or recommend some. Know the variety of techniques, cognitive, behavioral, and emotive, from which homework can be chosen. And make it clear to the client that lasting change requires ongoing effort. I did say to Kyla, it's not enough that she felt better after a half-hour time, or 35 minutes, or however much. And actually, we had more, didn't we? Um, but that should make effort. The emotive technique I use, rationally motive imagery. And the cognitive, identifying the irrational beliefs, disputing, and coming up with healthy new beliefs. And behavioral, the rubber band, the distraction, walking, breathing. So I, I presented a combination of cognitive, behavioral, emotive techniques.

When appropriate, use humor to put things into perspective. I, I love doing that. I try to do that whenever possible. There are exceptions. If I'm working with someone in raw grief, it's probably not appropriate. One uses one's, one's intuition, sensitivity, experience, that as to when to do or not to do using humor. I was very grateful for the appearance of Kyla's dog, too. It allowed us to have a bit of a laugh. And an example of Kyla, she has the ability to unconditionally accept, but in her case, it was whoever she was thinking about early on in our discussion, and also her beautiful doggy. Yeah.

And time for Kyla, equal time for Kyla. So, um, give homework at the end, which the client agrees to. If they don't agree, then we collaborate on, well, what might you be willing to do? Happily, in tonight's case, Kyla agreed. Um, so if I were to speak to her again, I would ask how she did with the homework. And if she didn't do it, it wouldn't, I wouldn't come across as, "Well, why didn't you?" in a punitive, teacher sort of way. It would be more like, "Well, isn't that interesting? Let's explore what might you have been telling yourself that prevented you from doing that?"

Be flexible, willing to add new goals as time goes on with the client. So if Kyla was my client that was seeing weekly, and if she succeeded at ruminating less over the next four, six weeks, we'd explore other goals. If helpful, "How are you going with your unconditional self-acceptance? What else might be going on?" And, um, be creative when exploring appropriate homework. You know, in, in the REBT books, or when I shared with you in a previous session, the techniques, don't feel that one must, must originally stick to those. I'm working with a client, and we're using, or she's using art and drawing to help her connect with certain emotions that we then bring back to, "Well, what are you telling yourself?"

So be creative. Be encouraging of anything positive in an authentic way. And I certainly encouraged Kyla a few times during the time we had, and deservedly so. She did really well for someone, especially who hadn't heard of REBT before. Great, great. And self-disclosed where appropriate. I didn't really have time, or I think the necessity tonight, but if it would be helpful, let's say, um, someone who was struggling with grief, to normalize that, I might share with them a similar experience I might have had. Um, not to talk about me for the sake of talking about me, but to normalize their situation, to help them see me as a human rather than just authority figure as a therapist. Um, so, and yes, the REBT approach can be life-enhancing and a way of life, not just the therapy.

So the role of the therapist in a session is very much to develop rapport, which doesn't mean have the client depend on you, the therapist, for their well-being. Um, the role is, if a client, you know, in advances of a different cult, country, or culture, or religion, or belief system, do a little research. That would help me communicate in ways that are respectful, that could increase rapport. To ask questions if there's something about their lifestyle or culture that I may be ignorant about or not understand. Really important to be an active, directive educator as part of what we do, and an encourager. And it's really important if I want to be very effective, not, um, [Music] not the best me that I can be, but a very effective me that I can be as a therapist. Kyla, are you hearing this? I hope you'll change that, that saying that was on your wall. Um, stay alert to any new books or videos or movies that can be recommended to a client that supports something that they're working on changing. And when one is challenging one's irrational, or not, excuse me, the client's irrational beliefs, making it really clear, I'm not challenging you as a person or your worth. It's these self-defeating beliefs. It's tough love, in a sense. Man, and usually in REBT, we focus primarily on the here and now. What are you telling yourself now that's creating that belief? Or if they're talking about their anxiety, then now, what were you telling yourself that was creating the anxiety?

The role of a client who is genuinely motivated to suffer less and make changes for the betterment of their life and life quality. It's important they be willing to learn the basics of REBT. They're not complicated, and you don't need to be academic or a genius to understand them and apply them. And then the most important thing, more important even than good understanding, is application. It's not enough to just keep it here. It's important to apply, whether it's reminders, that's an action, or behavioral, emotive techniques, a few of which you saw or heard tonight. It's very beneficial for the client to be diligent in doing homework activities and making ongoing effort, particularly to recognize any irrational demands and beliefs and dispute them and replace them ongoingly. Really important that they work on having greater unconditional self-other in life acceptance, and that includes [Music] unconditional acceptance of themselves. If they relapse, it's quite human to do so. And to have realistic expectations, meaning that it will take ongoing effort for them to get into healthier habits more of the time. And relapse doesn't mean they can't do it. It means they relapse. Pick yourself up, start all over again.

So now, a few minutes on the challenges that practitioners face, and then hopefully a few minutes for your questions. So burnout, stress, pushing, pushing to to keep on, keep on keeping on when some rest is needed in one's daily life. So self-care, it's important to, to be vigilant about that, or burnout and worse illness is likely. So to that end, it's important that practitioners have a support system, even if it's one mentor, or, or if not a professional mentor, someone in, in one's personal life that can be unconditionally supportive and helpful. Really helpful to make effort and be vigilant in getting enough sleep much of the time, eating healthy food, getting some exercise daily. Gratitude, meditation, or meditative activities are really advisable as well.

Another challenge that some of us, us practitioners, we practitioners, I unconditionally accept myself with my inability to know which grammar is right in this instance, anyway. Um, if we have unmotivated clients, which may be clients that, uh, come to us because it's court-mandated, or their partner made them do it, or their parents made them do it. Then it's helpful if we therapists do the best we can to hear that Kyla doing the best we can at that moment. That doesn't mean being our best selves. I don't know what that means. It's, it's such a rigid concept. Doing the best we can in that moment to motivate the unmotivated client by doing the best we can in a non-dogmatic kind of authoritarian way to point out, "Here's what could be in it for you. You may not love being here, but how about we make the most of this time? And here's how life might be better if you try it." Yeah. Really important to encourage them to understand what unconditional self-acceptance is and encourage them to apply it, which includes even if they don't make changes in the course of therapy. And really helpful to practice unconditional self-acceptance if the client isn't doing as well as we strongly prefer that they would do.

Now, another challenge can be resistant clients in the forms of resistance because they don't like you, their therapist. They make assumptions about how you are. Um, they might have irrational beliefs, "It's too hard to change," or "If I try this, I might fail, and that would be awful, so better I stay the way I am," or "I shouldn't have to change." Um, other forms of low frustration tolerance. Resistant clients may have shame and fear about disclosing some of the issues related, what they're in thera, related to what they're in therapy for. They may have hopelessness, pessimism, feel unworthy of changing, or think they don't deserve to change. Kind of that they're suffering, they believe their suffering is a form of deserved self-punishment. They might have perfectionism and grandiosity and ideas that, "Well, I'm not going to perfectly heal, so why even bother?" They might have a fear of therapeutic success, that they might succeed in their goal, and it would be awful then if I don't maintain it. So again, "Why bother?" They might simply have a rebellious personality. Or if someone has brought them along, are you a parent, partner, court-mandated, they might have a hidden agenda at failing at therapy just to stick it up whoever forced them to come to therapy, so to speak. Sorry if that's a bit of a crude expression.

Now, they might be slow learners. They may appear resistant and not be resistant, but just have biological and neurological limitations. So we therapists better watch out for that and better watch any tendencies for us to assume, uh, that they're resistant if they're not, or that they're resistant for reasons that may not be the case. And, um, there might be resistance for cultural reasons. For example, if a person's coming to therapy, but their culture, uh, poo-poos therapy and thinks that there's something wrong with you if you seek therapy, you know, in that case, it's worthwhile to discuss with the client what their beliefs might be about the therapeutic approach, approach, and looking for irrational beliefs that might be there. Um, important to self-monitor oneself as a therapist, dispute any irrational beliefs and expectations we therapists might have too. To, uh, selectively self-disclose, again, for the good of the therapy session. Get more into collaborating and sounding like collaborators than therapist-client. And to, if one or some techniques that you've recommended aren't working, experiment, try others. And if there's backsliding, to normalize that.

Okay, so I think I've covered the main points of what I wanted to share with just find a few things about resistors. The goal to help them be is to encourage them to understand their life will be better if they give it a go, and to be willing, as Kyla was, to experience the anxiety initially, not to resist or oppress it, but to own that with effort, that can be changed. And to teach the house to encourage them to be more mindful, to think about their thinking, especially when they're recognizing an unhealthy emotion. And finally, to have hope that there's so much evidence that when people make effort, there is change. So hope, hope, hope.

Okay, well, in the seven minutes we have, any questions? Thank you, Debbie. We actually do have time for one question. And that is this: Um, when a client begins replacing negative thoughts but slips back into negative thought patterns while going through the process, how does REBT address the ups and downs? Normalize, normalize, normalize. Particularly if this is a newish practice for them, that it's human, that we're all fallible, and that there's no such thing to do, no such thing as doing things perfectly all the time, if ever at all. We can just do things in excellent ways much of the time. That's realistic. And so the thing to do is to be aware, to feel encouraged that that, that one noticed, "I slipped again. What am I telling myself to create this unhealthy emotion? This unhealthy attitude to the fact that I slipped?" Look for the secondary emotion of, of, let's say, hopelessness or despondency. "I did it again." Normalize. Identify the irrational beliefs, dispute, replace them. That would remove the secondary unhealthy emotion, and then they could get back to the primary ones that, or one that they were, that they worked on initially.

Thank you for that. You know, Debbie, with just a few minutes left, a lot of our viewers have been posting this throughout the entire series, and that is, we want to express a big thank you to you. You have provided us with an invaluable perspective and valuable expertise. You've got, you're the leading expert in the world in this approach, and we are very grateful that you join us here at Seton Hall. So a big thanks from everybody at Seton Hall, from around the world who has logged on to follow you the past couple of weeks. And would you like to leave us with anything before we close out this last part of the fall series?

Um, oh yes. Well, again, I, I want to thank all of you who made this possible. All of you who participated. The main things I would love you to remember, each one of you, is that each one of us is a unique, remarkable biological creation, only here on Earth for a finite time. Let's use the ability we have, if we're aware of the how-to's, which now you can be, of thinking about our thinking, so we choose healthy attitudes and and thoughts that will create healthy emotions, so that we unconditionally accept ourselves, others, and life, so that we're grateful for this opportunity to be alive and welcome challenging experiences as opportunities to evolve and grow as human. And most importantly, to maximize enjoyment of life. My late husband, Albert Ellis, the, the creator of REBT, used to remind us, the purpose, one of the main goals of human life is to enjoy it. So let's practice daily gratitude and healthy thinking, and care about others and animals and the planet, so that we enjoy life more, however long or short we have, and suffer less. And I look forward to one way or another, hopefully connecting again with you. And thank you, Seton Hall, and Columbia University. Give the most attention to REBT than any other college I know of around the world, and certainly in the USA. So thank you, Columbia University. Thank you, Seton Hall. You're remarkable.

Thank you, Dr. Simon. Dr. Massarelli. We appreciate that very much, Debbie. And to all of the viewers out there, thank you for joining us. And we wish you a safe and very happy coming weeks and months. Bye.