Transcription
We are facing three countries with nuclear weapons. All of them do not hide their hostile intentions towards Japan. Japan is in an extraordinary situation. When push comes to shove across the Taiwan Strait, Americans can they fight without introduce nuclear weapons into the Japanese territorial sea? That's a big question mark. You know we were once know bitter enemies and there was this issue of PWS and Hiroshima Nagasaki. What we have witnessed is the most successful you know building up of trust and mutual respect between former enemies.
I can't think of a starker illustration of the difference between our two countries than this. Neither of us have oil reserves we need. We have 35 days roughly of reserves. Japan 254 days of reserves. I have to be frank and say that I don't personally believe the current government is capable of leading us through this. And that causes me great sadness to say.
My guest today, and I've really been looking forward to this conversation, is Shingo Yamagami. He's a distinguished former Japanese ambassador to many parts of the world, but to Australia uh for some time from around 2020 to around 2023. He is a great friend of Australia and in the spirit of friendship has some important observations to make about our relationship and how to keep it tight in a challenging and uncertain world. So Yamagami San thank you very much for joining me.
Well thank you very much John for having me and as you rightly pointed out I left my heart in Australia. I decided to make Australia my lifetime work. So every time I can come back here, it gives me a great pleasure. So thank you for having me.
Now a recent major survey of Australian attitudes uh revealed that Australians think of uh the Japanese uh as the people they most relate to uh and feel warmth towards in Asia. It revealed to a high level of understanding uh and uh of trust.
Yes.
Uh trade patterns reflect that. Our relationship on defense formally at least reflects that.
What do you think stands behind those warm ties?
I think uh let me first say you know that uh the feeling is mutual. Whereas you know Australia regard Japan as the best friend in Asia, we Japanese regard Australia is the most country in this region, the most important country in this region. And I think that you know reasons are multiple maybe first and foremost know I have to talk about you know very close trade and investment relationship. You may have heard about these number no 764942. This shows Japan's dependency on Australia. 764 is talking about mineral resources. Japan imports 70% of coal from Australia, 60% of iron ore, 40% of gas. Whereas when it comes to agricultural products, Japan imports 90% of sugar, 40% of beef, then 20% of wheat from Australia. I mean, you know, if you hear this number, you will be amazed to how trustworthy Australia have been regarded by Japanese business people and Japanese government. And then on top of that we are now expanding our ties to national defense and strategic partnership. One good example is Australia Navy is about to buy you know improved knowami type frigates from Japanese you know Mitsubishi heavy industry. If that goes successful, I think this will give another chapter to the most successful postwar history of friendship between Australia and Japan.
It was a predecessor of mine as deputy prime minister, John McCuan, who initiated and then signed off on the Australia Japan pact of 1957. And in a sense it's been upward ever since because in addition to what you've just mentioned of course the other side of the coin is you uh as a people invest very heavily in Australia. You're one of the major investors in our country. Um, Australians are flocking to Japan as tourists and yet that I think we've lost sight of the importance of the relationship more more generally.
Mhm.
I think that's true. I mean, you know, both of our country people may be obsessed with, you know, something else. you know Australia has its you know uh traditional ties with you know countries like UK and US security ties with United States are so close uh but that said I think you know if we look at our region I'm talking about Indo-Pacific region in the words of former prime minister Shinszo Abbe we are two most influential resident members in our region so Japan looks at Australia that way and here comes the importance of Australia. So not only in terms of trade and you know investment interest even in terms of maintaining peace and stability throughout this region Japan counts on Australia.
Shinszo Abbe is I think your longest serving prime minister since the second world war. I think he was in office uh 8 years, not contiguously but for eight years.
I met him in about 1998.
Mhm.
And he drew me aside in his office and he said, "I want to tell you why I love Australia." That was the word he used. I love Australia. I love Australians. And he told me he'd come here as a student
to try and understand Australia on a working holiday.
Yes.
As a young man. And he said the more he moved around Australia, the more he realized that perhaps Japanese war history doesn't quite instruct the full picture. Because what he said to me was, "The more I moved around, the more I realized the Australian people are warm and likable and honorable
and honorable people." That's a significant thing for a Japanese person to say, "Honor matters." He said it came to a head for him when he came here to Sydney harour and that's in the background right now.
Yes.
After the submariners, three submarines plus their crews were destroyed here, the crews killed. The Australian military, even in the darkest days of the Second World War, gave them a military funeral. And he said when he learned that, it locked in his admiration for Australia. I think it's a bit more than that. It locked in his admiration for the West and his commitment to the alliance. Would that be a fair thing to say?
I think so. And I'm glad you mentioned, you know, Shinszo AB because he is a prime minister who decided to have disatched me as Japanese ambassador to Australia. And uh
so he had very good taste.
He thank you for saying that. And just a few months ago, you know, I had a very interesting meeting with widow of Abisan Aki Abbe and she just told me, "Oh, my mother is a big fan of you, Yamagabisan." So I think, you know, this is a kind of bond I'm enjoying with, you know, Abesan and know his family and he was very very strategic in his thinking. probably you know he falls second to nobody in terms of understanding the importance of Australia to Japan that is why he initiated this strategic dialogue of Japan Australia the United States and India quote >> quote quote he is in instrumental in coming up with this idea along with free and open Indo-Pacific but what you know you told me you know you know rings the bell in my mind and there is this you know I think uh respect mutual respect we have been nurturing over so many decades you know since 1945 and yes you know we were once know bitter enemies and there was this issue of PWS and there was this issue of you know Hiroshima Nagasaki you know Tokyo air Tokyo world tribute Now I think each side has its own things to say but I think that apart you know what we have witnessed since 1945 is the most successful you know building up of trust and mutual respect between former enemies. Isn't that something? And I think a should be very very proud of his achievements. Incidentally, his younger brother who used to work for Sumitomo trading, he used to be in me. So his family has strong connection with things Australian and that lives on you know in the you know psyche of so many Japanese policy makers, politicians, the business people you know government officials included. So when I was ambassador, I used to tell the sky is the limit when it comes to the future of Aussie Japan relationship. I believe so. I continue to believe so.
The world has changed massively since 1945. I've often thought that it was something of a high point for the Americans. I'll just test your theory or your thinking on this. A shattered Europe was basically rebuilt by the Marshall Plan.
Mhm.
General Douglas MacArthur working sympathetically with the Japanese people to build democracies. It see in in your country, it seems to have worked in a very robust way that you have a diet, you have an upper and a lower house, you have regular elections. Um, and the Japanese story in so many ways has been one of an admirable one and and one of good global citizenship.
Is that a fair thing to say?
I think uh let me put this way. I mean you know I mean you know some Americans tend to say that they are the one to have brought you know democracy to Japan. You know we call it a BS because we have a foundation of democracy long before that. Can you believe it was back in 1925 Japan introduced universal suffrage for men.
I didn't know that.
So before the civil you know uh rights movement you know started you know in the US back in 1960s we had the universal suffrage at least for men. So we had a certain degree of democracy even prior to the second world war. So this world of militarism and know fascism tends to you know crowd the eyes of you know overseas observers. But that's a historical, you know, historical fact. That said, it was really unfortunate that this these two imperial powers, you know, both the United States and Japan had to fight over our own interests mainly on the Chinese mainland. You know, we are imperial powers. Don't be a hypocrite. It's not a fight, you know, between democracy against fascism. It was a fight between two imperial powers. Let's admit it and but you know I think it was a clean fight and at the end of the day you know no crying sour and we started to to nurture you know good relationship with the United States and where we were we are now sharing values democracy the rule of law, you know human rights respect and then, you know, a market economy along with we are sharing strategic interest South China Sea or East China Sea. So I think, you know, US Japan or Australia Japan if you look at this development I think you can believe in, you know, past is past and we are now joining forces and voices together for the peace and prosperity. I think this is a marvelous develop no development in humankind history.
Oh, I absolutely agree and and you and I are talking because we agree on that and because we think certainly in Australia, I'll be frank, our government is not paying enough attention to this and there's not enough leadership on it in these challenging times. But let me tease out something else that you said to me before we came on here. I commented on the thing that Australians always say when they visit Japan is how everything works. Even in Russia and Tokyo, you can still get around, whereas here in Sydney, a fraction of the size of Tokyo. In Russia, often you can't. Uh there's an extraordinary courteousness and politeness. And you made a comment that that is partly related to your geography.
Yes.
Uh I believe so because you know we have still about 124 million people living in the land which is smaller than the state of California, you know, in the US. uh so you know in terms of comparison, you know, Japan's land mass is uh about 120th of uh Australia but the population is five times bigger than that of Australia which means if there is one Aussie living in one particular space there are 100 Japanese living. So population density is very very high and 70% of Japanese land is mountains. That means how to make use of a small available land, how to be courtious to each other, how to make no nuisance to other neighbors. It was in Japanese DNA. So we try to be polite. Uh we try not to make too much noise. So uh I think that is what makes Japanese society very very special. Now I have lived in so many countries during my diplomatic career and there are two things which separates Japan from many other places. One is cleanness. How clean Japan is. There's no streets and household included. And then serenity, serenity, very quiet people tend to enjoy this, you know, very quiet, you know, uh environment. Uh, here we are. I think, you know, I I'm glad to see many Oussies come to appreciate these two traits of the Japanese society when visit places like know NO or Hakuba. So all these ski not only skiers, all the vacationers are more than welcome to come to Japan.
So we have a mutual friend in Mike Newman. Yes.
And he and I had a conversation recently.
He uh he talked about and it's related, I'm sure, to this sort of sense of cooperation and community that the Japanese have with nearly five times our population. Your public service is only 32% as we speak today. I I checked. 32% bigger than ours for five times the population. That is extraordinary. The cost is the same. The Japanese taxpayer doesn't spend more on the public service than the Australian taxpayer. They spend the same amount. How does Japan manage to run so efficiently
and with so little
uh if you like bureaucratic management?
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think uh there is this civil code you know or tradition in the Japanese society who tend to believe in uh public service. So I was one of then you know who was brought up you know to think that way you know if you happen to you know go to be a you know uh at the prestigious university you are expected to go into government after graduating from law faculty of university of Tokyo. Although we are fully aware the pay is low compared with commercial banks or trading houses but people find it honorable to serve in the public sector. uh but nowadays I'm not quite sure and uh you know younger generation Japanese are more attractive to the pro private sector especially I think uh you know foreign consultancy firms or investment firms. So this you know maybe public virtue is coming to an end but that is why you know we could put up with you know low salary and you know poor treatment for quite a long time with due respect to my OG counterparts you know they are much higher paid compared with Japanese counterpart there is no question about it you know so is true you know of uh Singaporean you know government officials So we got to do something in terms of improving the treatment of Japanese no public sector. But that said, I think uh working in the public sector is completely different from working in the private sector. Aside from salary and clean offices, you know, beautiful chauffeur cards, I mean you can make a difference and in believing so you can put up with no poor treatment. But is that thing that Japanese society? I'm sorry to say you know we are becoming a bit like you know bit like US or UK or Australia in that regard. I tend to believe in public service but uh look at you know how I'm being treated by the private sector. It is a big big difference right now
because you have left.
Yes, I have left and I'm now with a top law firm in Japan and how they are treating youngsters. You know it is a stark contrast from the way young officials are being treated by the Japanese government ministries. you know in terms of salary in terms of working hours conditions or apartment they are living in. So you know unless something is down you know we might not be able to attract you know the best and brightest to Japanese government any longer. That's my concern.
Now you've worked in the west a lot but you were here for quite a while. You plainly find the Australian people and their characteristics very attractive and you've warmed to them enormously. Yes. What what stands out for you about the Australian character?
I think you know I can say this for sure because I have lived in the US, you know, before coming here. I was in US for 5 years. I was in UK for three years. So I'm in a good position to compare these, you know, three Englishspeaking countries so to speak and Australia stand out in three videos. One weather golden sunshine. I think you are endowed with one of the greatest weather any country can enjoy. Not to speak of, you know, winter in London. And second is the high quality food, you know, I mean don't no don't be provoked but before I came here I didn't hold high expectation for the quality of food here because I have lived in Washington DC I lived in New York I lived in London and not much has impressed me but after I came here no not only fish and chips no but also hamburger are far greater than the counterpart on London social club or New York bar just impressive and the ethnic food, you know, Italian, Greek, Chinese, Japanese, Korea, you know, all impressive. So food quality is very fine. The finally but most importantly people is nice, friendly, kind, no warmhearted, down to earth. So with due respect to my American friends, with due respect to my British friends, but Australia does stand out and this is something Australia should be proud of as a nation. You are lucky country, but you don't live in luck. you know this this lack or you don't live in this happiness to no avail. Uh you are attracting a lot of others. There is no question about it.
We tend to speak our mind
and you speak your mind. Yes.
So maybe that's part of why you you enjoy our company.
I hope so. And what gives me great pleasure is pe people keep on visiting me in Japan. Even you know after I left, you know, the shore of Australia. I would say on average I received, you know, every month, you know, two visitors from two groups of visitors from Australia. The other day, you know, your former prime minister Tony Abbot came all the way to my humble cottage in Nago. We had a, you know, pleasant dinner together. So things like that and my former secretary, executive assistant in our embassy in Cambra, you know, she came all the way to my place. So things like this, you know, whether hi or no, no, I mean I'm enjoying my contacts, you know, from every walk of life in Australia.
Did I remember to tell you that I'm coming over next month?
Yes. Come to my place. And you told me your daughter was in Japan, right?
She did. Yeah. Yes. She she studied in Tokyo as a on a school exchange. So she loves Japan and still practices her Japanese sometimes.
Now, during your time here, uh because you are very forthright and because Japan is frankly very worried about China's intentions with the most staggering military buildup we've ever seen,
you experienced some resistance from some people who, in my judgment,
should have known better, suggesting that perhaps because Australia wanted to normalize relationships with China, you should say less.
M yes every every country is uh maybe divided into two groups whether Australia, Japan or US or UK and uh I think this is due to the allure of big market in China or it is due to sympathy people used to feel towards you know poor and developing China. But uh I think you know no know those people tend to be misguided at this juncture and as China grows big and uh richer we are witnessing the country becoming you know more arrogant uh and uh more indifferent to international laws, regulations and norms and we Japanese, you know, uh have been living under tyranny of proximity over so many centuries and the Japanese policy makers always made tremendous efforts to take a safe reasonable distance from the middle kingdom so that we won't be drawn into their empire. So because of this historical experience I tried to you know share Japan's experiences and lessons with a number of Aussies. Some people you know agreed with me but others do not and they are so concerned about provoking or angering you know or or infuriating you know China but just for the sake of plugating China and keeping your mouth shut I think it's a recipe for disaster and it will make China more arrogant and you know from time to time you have to call a spade a spade And that this is not well understood even by a number of Japanese politicians. So just last year I published a book you know along with uh one of the most famous Japanese commentator Kadasan. The title of the book was China sophants. We have a number of you know people who tend to be seopantic uh towards the middle kingdom. uh we severely criticize their attitudes and it has become a bestseller in Japan too. But you know China sequence Australia does not have the monopoly of China. China are everywhere and when it comes to waging information warfare or cognitive warfare you know so that they let think you know now we are having Chinese century US is degrading China is growing up know listen to China you know don't go against the wish of China Beijing you know I think among some people you know this just simplistic idea is prevailing to my great concern. So you have to take a look at real China. China has become strong but China has many many weaknesses and this weakness sometimes know makes China very very dangerous as we talked over lunch today. Maybe for this year next year China could be very very precarious and they might resort to some sort of adventurism. But this is a kind of real China we have to take a hard look without you know phoning you know without being sopantic and I think here we do need to compare notes you know between Australia and Japan.
It was a Chinese man himself Lee Kuan Yu who warned
25 years ago
yes
that China's rise coupled with its communist flavored masters would present very real challenges. They would become so powerful that as he put it, they'd only have to flex their economic model muscles, which they've tried with Australia, to bring people to heal. and that the only way to hold that back would be for the other countries in the region and indeed globally I think he meant to club together and say take one of us on you take all of us on that a fair summation of your view
I think so and uh I think uh you know uh looking at the advent of you know recent China what uh strikes me is China you know did not make any big success says in the battleground. Now if you look back at the history of the US or even the Soviet Union, you know, there have been, you know, decisive wars in which they showed their military prowess. In the case of China, what was it? Was it Korean war? I doubt it. Was that the war against Vietnam back in 1979? So China does not have any brilliant you know military record whereas China's you know prowess or strength or influence comes from its massive market and economic you know growth and sheer size of population. So here we are. I know we have to take a hard look at both the strengths and weaknesses of China and we shouldn't overestimate China's capabilities whereas we shouldn't underestimate you know their capacity. uh that is why we do need more you know closer leazison and you know exchange of opinions between Japan Australia and Japan and US know it's been often said by thinkers in Australia Japan tends to be too critical about China I was said so you know when I was in London as well but we do know China firsthand no we are so We have a lot of contacts and you know we can speak from the bottom of our heart where China is strong where China is weak and now is the time for all the friends to make utmost use of Japan's you know this great reservoir of knowledge and experiences about China.
Let's draw that out a little bit their strengths from their weaknesses. We hear about massive indebtedness.
Japan has a debt problem. Australia is growing a debt problem. America has a debt problem. But China's is really serious and nobody quite understands the full length of it.
They have a depopulation bomb.
Uh we don't actually know the real population of China. I would suggest
yes,
we don't really know.
Yes.
Um their military is untested and untried. They've got a lot of it, but how good would it be? Um, so those are some of the challenges. I think what I'm hearing you say is that that may very well make the present leader more inclined to look for a distraction, something to rally his country around that is not in our interests.
Yeah, that's the point. And I think for this year Chinese you know communist party leaderships is looking at uh 4.5 to you know 5.5% for their economic annual economic growth but who can believe that number see Chinese statistics is often flawed because it's accumulation of false reports coming from the countryside provinces. So you know who knows you know real China that's the biggest issue when it comes to you know economic you know numbers and military capabilities but what we can say for sure is certainly China's economy is slowing down dramatically you know I think you can say this for sure even without taking a look at what happened to their real estate market you know babble has completely busted so there uh lots of empty apartments all over China. This is a big big problem and social security network is yet to be developed. So we can feel that already you know not only wealthy class Chinese but middle class Chinese are looking for a safe haven in Japan. they are buying up expensive you know high-rise apartments in Tokyo or I know letting their kids attend Japanese public schools. So this could be you could see this could be the end of communist party dynasty. But this economic slowdown along with this you know uh increasingly apparent cleavage system between shuin pin top leader and top brass of people's revelation army might tell us no China is not yet ready to wage a fullscale invasion against Taiwan. But on the other hand, Shuin Ping is being surrounded by a bunch of yesmen, yes ladies and he can take whatever action he decides at any moment. And incidentally, his third term is coming to an end later next year. And he has already raised the stakes of Taiwan issue too high. That means he has put himself into a corner to have to take some action. So maybe this year or next year could be very very treacherous and dangerous in terms of him resorting some kind of adventurism. We have to brace for this possibility.
The conflict in the Middle East at the moment uh means a lot of things I suspect. One is that you're seeing a lot of American military hardware being uh deployed to the Middle East. You're seeing the use of a lot of missiles and armaments. You're seeing, I would have thought, a range of other factors which might encourage that leader that now is his moment. You hear that theory advanced around the place.
Yes. Yes. And I mean I I am concerned as well because already from Japanese you know naval base of sus and the US attack vessel you know triply has been diverted to the Middle East it's on its way to Iran and then the marine forces stationed on the island of Gina are being transferred to the Middle East as well. So here we are and we have to be careful at possible power vacuum. Not only power vacuum but also attention vacuum on the part of American you know political and military leadership and you know America is not know I understand. So Chinese, you know, Communist Party might see an opening here. While US gets bogged down in this military campaign in Iran, China might see, oh, now is a time to take advantage of this. Let's do it. Why not? And we have an unfortunate lineup of western I would say liberal democratic you know country leaders not to you know UK, France you know Canada or even Australia domestic political turmo popularity rate is not so high and they know nobody strikes Chinese leader as strong and principled. See this might be a great opening for China. So we are really concerned you know in that regard. I'm so delighted to see Japanese Prime Minister Noakay after three consecutive D and uninspiring politicians coming to the top. All of them are just content with becoming prime minister. But Takichi is not like that. She is willing to make a change. She is willing to make a difference. So I hope to see China sees Takai as a deterrent along with Donald Trump.
Their language has been extremely unfortunate and it should tell us a thing or two. When she indicated that an attack on Taiwan would have to be taken very seriously by Japan,
Beijing reacted with fury with economic measures with extreme language
and some of its diplomats in particular I think were went went to extraordinary lengths to say terrible things.
Yes, I think you know uh for the record know I would like to be as precise as possible. What happened in the diet deliberation is this opposition party member former foreign minister Okada tried to sort of grill Takai you know he posetical question what should Japan do in the case of China blocking no Taiwan blockading Taiwan so you know stopping all the commerce including you know energy and food know flow into Taiwan and then you or you know throughout that deliberation with Takahi the case went on to presume US will come forward try to extricate Taiwan out of this Chinese blockade then China responded by sending their warship to the Taiwan straight then this situation you know could be quite possibly be regarded as what we call existing threatening situation and Japanese national security legislation. But this does not mean no we are going to send our self-defense forces you know this situation might bring a lot of you know problem and you know maybe put Japan into crisis in terms of national existence because after all as prime minister you know Abishzo once said Taiwan contingency is a Japan contingency. Taiwan contingency is US Japan alliance contingency. So what Takai said in the diet is nothing extraordinary and this is something we bureaucrats government official have used to say when explaining the content of national security legislation but China took advantage of it. You know Takaii is a ultra lightwing, Takahi is a militarist and along with Japanese opposition party they try to get rid of Takahi government. And here we are this Chinese consil general in Osaka tweeted on his post that Takai's you know filthy neck will be chopped off without a moment's hesitation. Be ready for that. And China stopped rare earth know mineral export to Japan. China banned Japanese seed food imports. China you know I mean you know just you know resorted all you know possible economic coion and intimidation. So they are waiting for Takichi to go. They tried to dictate Japanese political leadership but Japanese general public responded to this by overwhelming supporting Takai. That was a result of lower election house election the other day. So Taki's party LDP won 316 seats out of 465 more than 2/3.
Wow. It's a historical record and I you know my reading is Japanese people said no no no to China you know dictating what Japan should do but I think this is a lesson to be learned by other members of the Indo-Pacific you know community because nowadays you know China thinks you know oh they can call all shots in this region and they try to call Southeast Asian states as smaller countries they have to listen to bigger kind of bigger brother China and their way of treating Australia is you know just extraordinary you know there is nothing polite there is nothing discreet about it so you know from time to time you know we have to call know sper space and you know let Chinese behave themselves otherwise know they they shouldn't live in the international community as a responsible member no
I obviously passionately love my own country and my own people, but I'm desperately worried about our complacency.
It's the long shadow that our irreverent laidback lass fair she'll be right mate attitude is throwing. I can't think of a starker illustration of the difference between our two countries than this. Neither of us have the oil reserves we need.
We have 35 days or so roughly of reserves and we have a full-blown fuel crisis here in Australia now in terms of the way the public sees it anyway.
Japan 254 of reserves.
You're very strong on numbers John.
I checked today before we did this conversation. as far as I can ascertain the accuracy of those figures. But it is stark.
It is daylight versus midnight in terms of responses to a deteriorating global outlook. Japan has this extraordinary ability to be realistic
and to prepare.
I think this comes from our bitter lessons of uh 1970s. We call it uh oil shock you know oil shock and where we suffered from a shortage of every kind of you know daily needs including toilet papers.
Yeah I do recall know I I know I was a small boy at that time but I was standing in the line standing the queue with my mother to buy toilet papers. So because of this lessons you know we decide to increase our accumulation of reserve of you know crude oil and now you rightly said 254 days but out of 254 days reserve we already released know 45 days of amount of oil to public consumption so that gasoline price know will go up. Takai San Prime Minister Takai gave a strict instruction to energy minister minister that gasoline price should stay around 170m per liter 170 is about 1.7 a dollars so I now understand Australia in Australia you know petroleum prices above no $2 per liter the takai is you know making utmost efforts was to refrain you know petrol companies from raising their prices because this will make a big big dent in the Japanese you know economy and when it comes to taking this kind of action or she is very very decisive and I think that makes part of the reason that her popularity rate you know stays high I think the latest number is about 72% approval rate it's unusually high by Japanese standard
Well, we now found ourselves without enough fuel reserves. Uh I'm involved in agriculture. Uh we don't have the ura, the fertilizers we need. And in fact, we're totally dependent on China for crop protection chemicals without which we can't safely grow food in this country. And I can only say that I sincerely hope this acts as a wakeup call for Australia. I have to be frank and say that I don't personally believe the current government is capable of leading us through this.
And that causes me great sadness to say I feel I can say it in front of you as a friend of Australia. You you love the country and and you know I'm not trying to talk my country down. I'm trying to say the opposite. Step up be worthy of our forebears who showed courage and forsightedness when we won't.
Um, the really extraordinary thing to me that you said over lunch was that the reaction to Beijing has been one of, well, we won't be belittled.
We won't be intimidated.
That's been very much the case with your defense forces. really alone and I include the United States in this in the face of rising danger Japan has for some time now on quite a small percentage of GDP that's interesting in itself been massively upgrading its defense capabilities I think people my listeners mostly would be stunned to know just how powerful for example
the Japanese Navy is right now
well I mean you know as you rightly you know implied you know in The first half of interview we used to be a warrior nation up until 1945 but at the end of the war Americans thought never again you know bizab Japan. So they wanted Japan to be sort of you know weak on military both on military and intelligence. But now that America has changed and uh looking at our severe increasingly you know hostile security environment they want Japan to be you know both you know strong uh militarily and you know intelligence wise and here we are and uh Takahi is spending 2% of GDP on defense but she would like to increase it and probably she's looking at the examples of NATO members. We now have about about 250,000 personnel for Japan self-defense forces, no army, navy, air force included. But uh while maintaining uh the sizable uh military force uh what is up to us is to modernize and I think strengthen our defense capabilities because we have a lot of sea and ground to cover and we are facing three countries with nuclear weapons and all of them do not hide their hostile intentions. towards know Japan. I'm talking about of course China, North Korea and Russia. So you know Japan is in an extraordinary you know situation. Uh that is why you know we do need to strengthen our alliance with the United States and we do need to you know increase our strategic partnership with countries like Australia you know UK and France and uh there is a lot we can do you know together you are going to introduce you know nuclear power submarine through August probably Japan should follow the example of Australia in that regard I am a strong advocate for Japan's introducing nuclear powered submarines but not more than that I mean more than that you know we should take a you know look at you know this how we should could you know maintain so-called three non-nuclear you know principles not to possess not to manufacture not to allow the introduction but for example when push comes to shop across the Taiwan strait Americans can they fight without introduce nuclear weapons into the Japanese territory territorial sea. I think that puts a big question mark. So we need to think you know strategically and in terms of doing that I think Australia can be a great partner. Yes, you have been know living in a lucky country enjoying this peace and prosperity and it's quite understandable for many oi to get used to inertia. But what's makes Australia great is you know you are wide eyed and you are avid travelers you really know what's going on in the rest of the world and this you know I mean quite you know open eyed all these can get together with Japan I think we can accomplish a lot in our region together to drill into this a little bit more I'm quite fascinated by this you've got
uh I think we were something in the order of 30 or 5 naval war warships, put it that way. Japan's got about 140. You're building aircraft carrier capacity. Again, your interoperability with the Americans is at a very, very high level.
Even now, the Japanese of what, 24 very high techch submarines.
Even now, I would have thought Japan alone would give China some reason to stop and think. M
I think uh deep down know if uh Chinese and uh you know avid learner of history you know or probably it's uh difficult to imagine you know they are forgetting the bitter lessons of the recent history every time you know they underestimate Japan's progress they had to pay a heavy cost I'm talking about you SinoJapanese war of 1894 and great East Asian you know war you know starting back in 1930s so many older generation Chinese are fully aware of Japan's you know mightiness so to speak but younger generations I think uh inundated by the slogans of you know resurgence of China as a nation you know Chinese people they tend to overestimate themselves and they tend to underestimate the entire liberal democracy camp and this makes China contemporary China very very precarious and dangerous. So from time to time you know we have to let them know that uh you know don't mess up with us. So you know on a different note I keep on telling my you know uh younger Japanese people never ever get defeated by team China whether in baseball or in football. We have to show our progress. We have to show to them we are in a different league. That's why Japanese football and soccer even rugby improved thanks to help from Australians. fingo.
I'm very conscious as a farmer of the importance of trade.
We send prime beef. I've eaten Australian prime beef in Tokyo and uh we are massive suppliers of energy, ironically, even though we have energy problems at home. Um Japan is a huge investor in Australia. Um, and I think we're losing sight in this country a little bit of the importance of those investment flows. I'm well enough tapped into the resources sector in this country to know that they are warning that the Japanese are getting a bit tired of our regulatory uh over cooking of everything, the slowness, the inadequacy uh and anti-competitiveness of our tax system that were not as attractive a place to invest in or to buy from. And indeed, it was an Australian who recently warned me that we need to be really careful,
that despite our long-standing ties, particularly from the 1960s on resources,
we're actually encouraging the Japanese to go elsewhere for some of the things they need. What can we say about the business relationship that really lies at the heart uh of so much that's um that that's important for us going forward economically and strategically?
Thank you. Thank you John for bringing that issue up because that was a kind of concern you know quite often expressed to me by Japanese business people while I was camp know ambassador in Cber you know there was this instance of you know the state of Queensland raising you know co tax you know and the know there was this you know uh change of regulation when it comes to you know gas or you know uh stringent you uh examination when it comes to you know developing you know new minds because of environmental concern or old heritage concern you know uh this used to you know serve as a sort of tunnel when it comes to investment fever on the on the part of Japanese business because therefore Australia is a reliable source of both know resources and you know agriculture know products or Australia is politically stable whether coalition labor Australia tends to give you know good care of you know its relation business relationship with Japan but these days you know I mean you cannot live in complacency and as you rightly pointed out you know you have your competitors you know all around the world you know whether gas or agriculture products. So how to you know further advance our trade and investment ties up to our constant constant efforts and you know same can be said you know about the way around I mean you know investment from Australia to Japan. Now I think Japan you know is in a good position to attract investment from Australia because of uh favorable you know exchange rate you know or GPM and lots of business opportunities are opening up you know not only in resorts like you know NCO or Hakoba in many other places. So I think you know through this you know mutual you know two-way of investment flows I think we can elevate our business relationship to even a higher higher plateau and if you look at the United States you know where we have to face you know political you know unpredictability and know business precariousness. I mean I think Japan is politically stable at least for the next few years because Takarage government will not face national election until later uh 2028 summer of 2028. So the for the next few years you know Japan will be political stable under Prime Minister Takai and business-wise know Japanese knows prices are record high. So now it's a time for all the investment to take a close look at you know what business opportunities are available in Japan. You know through you know this mutual you know flow of you know goods and money and students and tourists I think uh we can join our forces and we can flourish together. This is my dream. This is my conviction too.
I think that about sums it up. We should be alert. We should be active. We should be alive.
Should be working together. Right, right, John.
And I think the Australian people are right there. We have no better friends in Asia. So, you've been very good with your time.
Thank you. Thank you for having me, John. I enjoyed it.